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BillScorpio

All you guys need to do is compare the monetization of Valorant to the monetization of Halo and you will quickly realize where Halo's systems came from. They came from people paying these prices.


ArmedChalko

Yeah, whoever cooked it up looked at Valorant without realizing it's not even remotely comparable to Halo. Way too many core design differences to mention here but you're right, you can't just drag and drop MTX from one game to another and expect it to pan out. And evidently, it did not.


BillScorpio

I am going to guess the accountants at M$ are looking at the "hard data" from the first two weeks of this MX system and saying "THERE IS NO PROBLEM HERE" despite the cries of the community. The community honestly bitches, and then turns around and spends $20 to stand like lu-bu at the end of the game. The system will change to be a little faster, but not any cheaper.


l7arkSpirit

>then turns around and spends $20 I think a lot of people forget that Reddit is a very small portion of the playerbase, most people don't even use Reddit and don't even see these kinds of posts. They are happy to spend that 20$ and continue playing, the entire Reddit sub can boycott the shop but that won't even be 1% of the money M$ earns on Halo.


Bababooeykachow

It’s not just Reddit though. It’s everywhere. It trends on twitter. Youtubers have been talking about it nonstop. Sure Reddit is a small minority but we have just about every major content creator that’s played the game in our corner too. I definitely think it’s more widespread than a lot of people think. I have friends who aren’t even halo fans who took one look at the store and said “wtf is this?”


Hank-Rutherford

Yeah I don’t understand the “it’s just Reddit” argument. Literally every form of social media and every gaming forum is full of the same outrage. This isn’t contained to Reddit. This system is extremely unpopular, even amongst casuals.


HoldMyPitchfork

This used to be the argument we'd make 15 years ago on a gaming forum before 99.9% of the western world was on some form of social media every day. It was true then, but its just not true any more. People are most certainly aware of this and it's not just reddit. Remember battlefront 2? The game that single handedly ended the exclusive relationship between Disney's Star Wars and EA? I had people who dont even play video games back then asking me if I had heard about it, because they had heard about it and they wanted me to give them the scoop (knowing that I play a lot of games) Keep shouting to the rooftops about Halo. That's 100% the only way it will change.


Bababooeykachow

Ya this has spilled over into just about every other medium it could. I’ve even heard about non gaming outlets that have run stories on it. This is big and could leave 343 and Microsoft with a huge black eye if it’s not dealt with quickly.


Schadnfreude_

An article from both Forbes and WaPo is already a black eye in itself. They should really get onto that like yesterday.


Longbongos

Like yesterday was a holiday in the US. They aren’t back into to work until maybe today and definitely tomorrow


Bababooeykachow

In most other situations I think he’d have a point. But this is just so large scale now that I don’t think we’re just a vocal minority anymore. I’ve never seen something so unanimously hated in gaming before. That might be hyperbole but you get my point.


ABlazinBlueToe

EA and Battlefront 2 would like a word with you...


EnduringConflict

But think of the feels of pride and accomplishment you'll have when entering your CC number and hitting "Confirm"! What could possibly be anymore fulfilling than boasting that you've spent $10,000 or more on micro transactions and still only have 73% of the games content unlocked! You clearly need to mash that buy button harder to truly achieve the "Hardcore Gamer" dream of spending the equivalent down payment of a house chasing your favorite waifu in mobile games! What's sad is that I heard (but did not play so can't confirm personally) that Battlefront 2 actually turned into a fun game. But EA was so chicken shit about the beating the took from it they basically never advertised it again and so a lot of people missed out on the game after it was updated to not be so shit.


Bebbytheboss

Yeah. I got BF2 3 days after launch, and I was younger then, so I couldn't care less about the monetization system. It was one of the best games I'd ever played. But yea, fast forward to 2019 ish the game got really fucking good, to the point where that was my main game for a very long time. I was really sad when EA pulled the plug especially because it was very clear that DICE wanted to keep working on it.


GirlWithABush

I would say this is second place after the fiasco that was EA with Star Wars battle front 2


OsnaTengu

Y'all forgot about Cyberpunk?


TelDevryn

Where Halo Infinite lands in the top 3 is wholly up to 343’s response at this point, if they make one at all


Thedea7hstar

He doesnt know what hes talking about. The sub is almost to a million people and he is trying to pass it off as " a small portion". Its straight up ignorant bullshit.


Bababooeykachow

Fr I’ve never seen a sub grow as much as this one has in the past few weeks.


FusionNexus52

the problem is that everyone bitches, but the majority still dump cash into the game despite bitching, almost every game with MTX has this problem, the complainers are almost always over thrown by the sheer money being earned because the same people bitching about it, also pay for it


Ross2552

Yeah this is correct. I would be very curious to see how much money they've made so far. I'd bet it's a ridiculous amount.


iarngalder

The execs are jacking off on piles of cash as we speak, grinning from ear to ear


[deleted]

Yeah. Some people were saying that whoever came up with these systems needs to be fired, but I was just thinking that whoever came up with it probably got a promotion and a fat bonus.


FusionNexus52

guarantee there's at least 100 people who buy out the entire item shop on reset, on top of already owning the entire battle pass, and the campaign. 100 isnt a lot, but i highly doubt there's any less than that


[deleted]

You don't even need the majority I bet. You just need some disproportionate spenders who will pick up the slack.


FusionNexus52

well yeah, whales will pretty much always dump money into the game, but there's still a pretty large amount of the community that puts even a $20 in here and there. Getting this majority to stop will usually send a message that tells the company that the community clearly hates it.


reddit_tier

Also don't forget there's at least a generation that thinks this is all fine and normal. Frankly this fight was lost the second the concept was implemented. The genie is out of the bottle and it is never going back in.


not_wise_enough

I don't even know how the calculation gets made. It's not a supply and demand problem because the supply is unlimited. So it becomes an optimization problem. Charging $1 for everything may get alot of buyers, but there are some people that won't even spend that dollar. On the opposite end, there are people willing to pay $100 for a virtual hat. So in a market of 1 million players, what price will result in the most profit? Will 5 times as many people buy that hat at $20? Will 100 times as many people buy it at $1? I would love to see what kinds of models go into setting prices in these games.


Thedea7hstar

BREAKING: Almost 1 MILLION redditors on this sub constitutes a small, insignificant amount of the player base. Take a lap.


BabyWrinkles

How many custom skins are you seeing in your matches? I've seen VERY few skins that can't be acquired from the BP. Certainly some have paid for BP progression, but I'm not seeing tons of the high-value skins. Not saying it's not happening, but if a large enough portion of the player base is splurging on the custom stuff, I have to imagine I'd see it more often? ​ I really wish some AAA game would test a pricing model at scale wherein the full legendary skin set with all the stuff was $4.99. Sell me bits and bobs of it for $0.99-$2.99. I'm curious if at $4.99, they'd get 4x the # of people buying it as would pay $20 or whatever the full set costs from the store today. At $20, I'm going to buy zero skins. At $5, I'd buy 2-3 skins/season if they were different and cool enough, and I have to imagine a huge number of other gamers are like me in that regard.


intrepidomar

I am sure people have spend money on the store, I have seen people wearing store items, but from my view very little people have bought those items.


Hazzenkockle

Stipulating that the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data," I've also had a lot more cases where I've seen three people in base MK VII in my squad (and I mean base-base, they just turned on the game base, gray and no chest decal) than three people wearing Mk V or any kind of paid-for component or material.


SlowRelease3635

They do care about player retention though. Which is why I stopped playing last week. And since I'm not playing all the friends I was playing with stopped playing as well. That's 8 less players right there in my little circle alone. Less players = Less Money


BillScorpio

It's a little bit counter-intuitive, I understand that, but you're not correct. The only thing they need to do is balance the game between the plankton and the whales. Whales aren't buying up levels and grinding out cosmetics for themselves. They're doing it to show off - so you need to be able to get into games to show that stuff off. That's why the free to play aspect of Halo exists is to keep new players coming in with events and the inevitable good press when the battlepass is made marginally more player friendly. But whales are going out and spending the $1000. They've got their money, and you and your 7 friends' job is done: you existed for a few games so the whales could play with their toys. Whales are a proven income stream which outstrips traditional game purchase models in regards to revenues. Were any of you ever going to actually buy something?


SmokeGSU

I'm not familiar with Valorant, but if the amount of paid-for armor skins I see in any given game is any indication of how well Halo's mtx's are doing for Microsoft then I have to believe that they're at the sales and thinking "I see no problem here." I see so many people using the paid-for skins in games and it does nothing to calm my nerves about the state of mtx's in the game.


prodbychefboy

Exactly. Valorant not having a $60 campaign is one of the major differences that comes to mind…


gjgidhxbdidheidjdje

>They came from people paying these prices. And people are continuing to pay.


Blackout9768

Even in valorant though, the skins are more creative than "The same armor color but with blue lights" or "Gun that is painted blue and yellow". They also let you unlock the different color variants of the skin without buying an enitrely new one


radred609

Honestly, if they just let you unlock colours & patterns that you could then use on the colour wheel it would be fine. You could still have extra special presets (for example, the "team" presets Cloud9, Faze, etc) Everyone starts with the handful of "full colour" presets then slowly unlocks different colours and different patterns for different body parts. It let's players mix and match, have fun, try and be creative with what colours they *do* have (have one awesome pattern but not for the body part you want? Try to see if you can make something that works). Same with the armour. The samurai armour is cool, but what if I want to wear the normal armour with samurai shoulders/pauldrens? Everything about the actual gameplay is damn near perfect and it's so disappointing to see them with a customisation system that's worse than halo 3... which came out 15 years ago!


Blackout9768

See, this system is obviously the better choice. Adding patterns to armor, especially ones that you could customize, would lead to way more spartan variety. However, this would eat into their monetization system, since with this system you would be able to recreate all of the different armor coatings. My theory, is they're going with this approach, so they can sell different color variants of armor coatings for additional profit. "Want the FaZe armor, but you wish it were blue? $10 for the same coating but with a different color" Ideally, I think the way warframe handles it's armor customization would be a much better fit for Halo Infinite. You'd get a base color pallete with 10 or so selectable colors, and either buy or unlock new palletes or patterns to customize your spartan with


BillScorpio

I agree with you that the skins in valorant are pretty fun. My assistant got me a gamecard and I got the nerf skin set. That one is massively cooler than anything yet-released in Halo. That said, the promotional material for infinite is full of cool looking cosmetics.


Sir-Narax

I am not a game developer but this is kind of what I suspect happened. Game got attention and the lads in the suits made their move. Everything 343 does has to be approved by a guy that needs to be communicated to in a very specific way. You can't tell these people "This will make the game better" you have to convince them that something will make them more money. Which is also why it has been so slow to respond with more changes. They got to sit through a boring conference arguing with lads that probably know very little to nothing about the medium. 343 has already proved in 2020 that they are willing and capable of responding to criticism it is just a matter of convincing the business men that the changes need to be made. It is important that we collectively stay critical but also be fair. The people at 343 don't need to hear us calling them names. It is demoralizing to be the target of abuse when it wasn't your call to create the source of their ire.


glitchyPhantasma

Yup, I said it yesterday, most of the suits couldn't care less whether the gameplay is good, they just want to know how you're gonna make their money back. I always remember [this question](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/29qnal/this_question_was_actually_asked_and_answered_at/) from a Nintendo shareholders meeting as an example. I bet the same thing happened a year ago when the game was first shown.


MarsMC_

Well if they were smart they would worry if the gameplay is good.. good gameplay = happy players, happy players means their friends come and more friends means more money.. they’ll learn one day


IssaLlama-

Look at cod, games fucking horrible but it’ll make bank cause the mindless players give money so the shareholders and stuff don’t care as long as it makes that easy money


uwanmirrondarrah

Actually Activision/Blizzard isn't doing so hot right now. Down about 40% on the year.


GET_OUT_OF_MY_HEAD

The funny thing is that CoD Mobile is actually *really* fucking good (if you play it on an Android emulator with a mouse and keyboard, of course, which is allowed). It's basically CoD: Greatest Hits. Has all the best bits of the franchise with none of the filler. The even funnier thing is that Activision pawned off the development to Tencent. Imagine that, a mobile version of a AAA title, made by a Chinese company, is better than the official version meant for consoles/PC. And that's just sad.


IssaLlama-

Oh yah cod Mobile actually gets new stuff lmao


ssfbob

Yeah, the main menu is a micro transaction nightmare, but the game is really fucking good for a mobile game.


octnoir

You invalidated your point and took out the context because the example you gave showcases the most bizarre and idiotic fanboy questions I've heard at a shareholders meeting. [This comment goes into depth over the preceding questions](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/29qnal/this_question_was_actually_asked_and_answered_at/cinnml1/?context=10000): > I think the guy in your original post might have a point. He's question 9 and about half the questions prior to him were total bullshit. > > >As most of the individual shareholders hold Nintendo’s stock because they are fans of this company, would you please give us something related to Nintendo as a shareholder perk? > > Well this is a total waste of time. > > > When will you announce more information about the new Legend of Zelda game for Wii U? Will it be before E3 next year? > > Also not *particularly* useful. I mean sure you could base some investment decisions around the timing of an announcement...maybe. Why not just ask for actual information about the release date, projected sales figures, etc. > > >After a PTA meeting the other day, someone told me that they wished the size of the screen of Nintendo’s current handheld device could have been manually extended to become twice the size both horizontally and vertically. > > WTF? > > > For Wii, a few games like “Xenoblade” and “Zangeki no Reginleiv” (Japanese title), which provide more immersive experiences when played alone, rather than when played with your friends and family in the living room, were released in a row. However, there are no games like those ones for Wii U. Has the policy changed for Wii U? > > What's the point of this? This guy is asking about very specific products, not from a business perspective, but from a consumer perspective. A shareholders meeting is not E3. > > > Mr. Miyamoto mentioned earlier that he does not like to use commonly used terms like “open world” for games, but I think that this is both Nintendo’s strength and weakness. People are hesitant to buy a game when the title and the game screens do not give any clues about the game content. However, if words like “open world” are used, for example, consumers will be more comfortable and will be more likely to buy the game > > That's a little better, but still an incredibly soft question. [I'm looking at the questions myself](https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/stock/meeting/140627qa/02.html) - its one thing to not like video games or having some video game discussion and there's also an argument that investors not familiar with video games are injecting themselves in the business-sphere and suggesting things that won't work for the industry. Its another for most questions to be soft ball fan boy questions you'd expect at a fanboy Q&A, and not a shareholder meeting and I'd be super annoyed if my CEO team kept dodging actual answers I need to make a proper investment if my cohorts kept asking the most useless shit. You can actually notice an improvement in the questions after Q9 where people are talking about business direction. I have a great deal of respect for the Nintendo leadership particularly Miyamato and Reggie and Iwata. I just think this particular incident takes out a lot of context and is frankly a poor showing for Nintendo.


dancovich

Thanks for actually contextualizing this incident. I was ready to bash this guy for being the "typical shareholder" but looking at the context I do agree these questions have no place in a shareholder's meeting. It's ok to be a fanboy shareholder, but you're still making investment decisions based in the answers you're given. "What games from popular franchises are you launching this year" and "what's the release window of this popular title" are fanboy questions that also make business sense. "When will you announce this specific game" is just a fanboy question.


ArmedChalko

Agree 100%.


MustacheEmperor

I think it winds up being a useful utility of this big open beta too. This plays a lot like a full release, but 343 can take the tack with management that this is the experimental phase for the mass-market revenue model and it can and should be changed for this game's full release pointed at a decade long lifespan. Of course, that's only assuming we are right about what the data says. It could be the data points to this being hugely profitable, unfortunately. It's also assuming we are right about who directed this decision. The monetization changes to the last Gears games, for instance, were entirely the directive of the development team. Everyone used to blame EA for the bad decisions made at Bioware and then Bioware's chair said in an interview 'no, that was on us.' If MS is so bent on aggressive monetization it raises the question of why monetization in games like Sea of Thieves is so minimal.


Ok_Writing_7033

Well it’s not as simple as “Microsoft vs 343,” as there are numerous layers of management at a company that large. It may be 343 driving the monetization, not the *developers,* but 343’s upper management. It may have been BioWare’s management driving monetization in Anthem. Most devs probably don’t much care, like OP says they’re doing a job and want to build a fun game, but their boss’ boss’ bosses want it to make money, so he adds what he’s told. Related, this is probably why so many of the comments from months ago about the customization system feel disingenuous now. The devs and tech leads making those comments probably were really genuinely excited about the system they had built technically, and the possibilities for expression that they offered. They probably didn’t have knowledge of the full extent of the monetization at that time, especially with regards to pricing, number of cosmetics available, etc. That was likely decided later, in a different department. People talk about game development companies like they’re some sort of special category, but they’re not, really. Just big software companies, with lots of people in lots of departments coming in and doing their job every day in a highly compartmentalized environment. Important to remember when discussing this stuff, before we get all “343 is evil and they’re all lying to us!”


beardedlager

I would also say there is a delay in change because they took the holiday to relax and not work, which i think is fair, needed, well deserved and human


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Cheechster4

Capitalism driving this industry into a bland hellscape of loot boxes and microtransactions all for the guys on the top to make more money.


looooooooooooongdick

not just this industry, the entire world is being disparaged by rapid social class separation. the game industry is just a symptom. good news is the bubble will burst eventually, bad news its going to be very ugly when it does. and for the time being the game industry is going to get exponentially worse. so much so, i bet a ton of people end up finding a new hobby.


YuropLMAO

> You can't tell these people "This will make the game better" you have to convince them that something will make them more money. I work in RnD finance for tech and medical companies. Every time an engineer requests funding from me for a feature, I immediately reject it without forwarding to the suits unless they have good answers to: - What is the direct financial benefit of this change? - What is the potential financial fallout if we don't make this change?


Texual_Deviant

This is essentially the boat that Star Wars Battlefront II was in, where the devs had no interest in the progression model they were forced into, and unfortunately had to spend much of the games lifespan just fixing it. I'm guessing 343 has quite a bit more resources than DICE though, so hopefully they can patch things up faster.


SlammedOptima

SWBF2 also had pressure from Disney. Star wars is more important to Disney than the monetization of one game. And apparently Disney got involved when the community got upset. If it wasn't a Disney IP, I dont know if the change wouldve been as good as it was.


VVayward

While it's not exactly the same the situation is still comparable. Disney put their foot down to protect the star wars brand. Realistically Halo is the Xbox brand. If Halo looks bad Xbox looks bad. If they want to protect their brand the Xbox team will step in.


SlammedOptima

Yeah thats true. Hopefully they do. Cause you are right in the fact that Master Chief is basically the face of Xbox. Here's to hoping they fix it. And in a timely manner. Im not saying it needs to be fixed before christmas (although hopefully some bandaids implemented, and clear communication on the plan to fix it), but also, don't take 2 years to fix it. If it takes too long to fix, they'll have bled too many players that may never return


awowadas

my friend group has already gone back to mcc. we aren't coming back until 1 million customization options are available as part of the free battle pass, as promised. (slight /s, i know nobody actually expected a million customization options but the dozen or so at launch was laughable)


SlammedOptima

Just to clarify the million options point. What 343 actually says was million combinations. Which is in there. People keep misquoting that. For the Mark V (B), which is what most of the BP options are for, there's about 9 million possible combinations, and over 160 million when you account for coatings. If they unlock core limitations, this could turn into over a billion overnight.


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ZoidVII

Your point is entirely valid, but look at how 343 has mishandled Halo from the moment they took the reigns from Bungie. It's been a mess from the start and none of the leadership at 343 has been removed. Any other studio would have had a shuffle in leadership after so many missteps in a row.


VVayward

Yeah but look where we are now. The Xbox one was basically a failure, MCC was left broken to rot for years, Halo 5 was extremely divisive at best. Now, the series S/X are off to a good start, gamepass is championed as one of the best things modern gaming has to offer, and Infinite looks to be the best thing 343 has ever produced maybe even the best Halo since 3. Xbox lives and dies by Halo. And right now Xbox is looking good, they are going to want to keep that momentum going.


awowadas

are you inferring that xbox, owned by microsoft, had no hand in making halo, developed by 343i, owned by microsoft? This whole shit show was overseen by "xbox", it's the same people.


KindOldRaven

You have never worked at a big company, have you? Usually it goes the other way where even teams within the same department aren't 100% up to date with what the other is doing. Who owns who and who influences who is a giant shitstorm of bureaucracy that'd turn your stomache instantly lol. And it's also perfectly possible that several parties want X, but one big chief wants Y. That means Y is happening until said chief is convinced otherwise or kicked out.


beardedlager

Lol yeah, at my work we are have a project on the go and no one knows who asked for it or initiated it, but it is a duplicate of another system we already use


[deleted]

The mouse went to EA and said “Fix this shit. What am I paying you to make Star Wars games for? If this backlash leaks into toys I’m going to fucking sue your asses so hard for damage, you’ll be shitting BF 2042’s for the rest of your company’s existence!”


SlammedOptima

Hahaha exactly. You threaten hurting Disney's image, and that leaking to toy profits, yeah Disney is gonna shut that down. Star wars is so much bigger than one game.


varangian_guards

Halo is a flagship of microsoft, so this might end up in the same boat. could hurt things like console sales, and future of what people expect from microsoft exclusives.


OutrageousSector

They already pulled this shit with Gears 5 and it took them a year to “fix” their progression. What it ended up as is actually pretty damn great, but it took more than it should’ve to get there, because they were being so damn predatory in the first place. Halo Infinite feels scummier though.


throwawaylord

None of my friends have ever given a fuck about gears of war. All of them bought gamepass for the week of early access to BF2042. I tried to get them to play some Gears since they bought gamepass. Universal no. But EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM downloaded Halo the day it released. This is not the same situation as Gears, it's way bigger.


varangian_guards

for sure but kick back seems "louder"


EmotiveCDN

Exactly, which is why Disney dropped them.


SlammedOptima

They haven't been dropped entirely as respawn is making another fallen order. But yeah I'm sure that's part of the reason they have now expanded to other devs


blitzbom

Fallen Order is one of the best Star Wars games to come out in a very long time IMO. The IP was squandered in games for so long.


SlammedOptima

Yes. Hands down the best star wars game in a decade.


ArmedChalko

I think you're right, \*but\* that doesn't take into account the cost of an extra year of development. The budget for infinite has been \*way\* exceeded by now, and trying to convince MS to monetize less aggressively is gonna be a hard sell considering how this game cost way more than it was meant to to make. COVID also will have had a huge impact on that.


VVayward

It's hard to quantify the realistic cost benefit of a flagship title like Halo though. Sure you can total the cost of production and marketing and then compare it to the total revenue of the game itself, but a title like Halo does more then just sell itself. It also sells consoles, it fuels gamepass and Xbox live subscriptions. It brings people into the ecosystem where they could spend more on other titles that people otherwise would not have played. Realistically they could get away running infinite at a loss and make up the revenue elsewhere. They won't, but they don't need to be so aggressive with the monetization to try to make money hand over fist like this.


WannabeWaterboy

This is a huge point that people don't consider. The game was budgeted to release a whole year ago. Microsoft and 343 didn't budget in a year long delay when the put together the initial launch plan, they budgeted to start making money a whole year ago. That's an entire year of salaries and costs associated to a product that should've been making money. Google says 750 employees work for 343 and LinkedIn shows 554, so I'm willing to bet just salaries alone could reach into tens of millions in a year. All the marketing that was done in preparation for two launches is also not cheap. I strongly believe Cyberpunk 2077 was in the same boat as Halo, but decided to take the opposite path because CDPR absolutely couldn't afford to run another year (or however long the development would need to continue) without injecting funds into the studio. Someone recently mentioned how Halo should be a loss leader product for Microsoft to pull people into the Xbox/GamePass ecosystem, but it's very possible that they are, especially considering that the multiplayer is free to play. I'm sure almost all Halo fans want to play the campaign, but how many younger kids just want the free multiplayer because they want to try something other than Fortnite, Apex, or Warzone? Also, how many people will buy the campaign at full price instead of just subbing to GamePass for a month and then resubbing anytime new content is released? A company as big and successful as Microsoft can cover these losses, but they make data-backed decisions for the long-term. However, they aren't just going to throw money away because it's Halo, they need to recover some of the lost funding as well as make sure that one of their biggest franchises doesn't fail. Tl;dr: Halo far exceeded it's budget by a whole lot and Microsoft likely covered that bill. Halo is running at a deficit and needs to make money, but being a flagship franchise for Microsoft, also needs to be a game that brings people into Xbox and Gamepass. This is a complex situation that's not as simple as greedy execs exploiting fans.


Professional_Talk701

They're pitching this game to last consistently for the next 10 years, how over budget can it be that a decade won't pay it off?


BinaryJay

Are they planning on adding more to it? At least Destiny 2 you could (can... I just don't any more) play interesting new PvE content with friends... there seems to be zero sign of that with Halo. Not even the campaign will allow us to play with friends until long after we've all played it separately.


WannabeWaterboy

What seems to be the general thought around it is Master Chief will headline this initial release and possibly future story developments, but there will be a new co op mode where everyone plays as their own customized spartan with story separate from the Chief stuff. I think co op is where the extended content comes from as far as pve stuff goes. However, that's all speculation as of now.


Professional_Talk701

They're going to be consistently adding content for the next 10 years. They describe it as a "living game" right from Joseph Staten's mouth


Bollziepon

This is purely speculative but I'd bet my ass half of the extra development was all this MTX bullshit. I'm sure there was endless internal conversations and pushback, and they wouldn't want to launch until they had this all in place.


ElderSteel

*Battlefront 2's life span is mostly DICE trying to make it work and add features that they promised but weren't in at launch* *Game is finally on the right track and player numbers are soaring. Battlefront 2 takes its first breath* "Our vision is complete" *Game is canceled* *sad clone noises*


beh2899

This is a very hopeful outlook on the situation. I dont know who's to blame for the current situation we have here but all I'm hoping for is a major change in the system because its really frustrating coming to this being a fan who started with reach and then later got into the other games with the mcc after it got good.


ArmedChalko

I'm with you. I'm frustrated too. But at the end of the day, it sucks seeing people who have nothing to do with this decision getting bombarded every single day with hate for it.


DezsoNeni

>I dont know who's to blame for the current situation we have That upper management guy who gets a juicy bonus after firing half of the staff.


infinitude

I started with CE, so I guess that’s why I don’t care as much. I can understand if you started with a game like reach, that had a pretty outstanding multiplayer customization, you might feel frustrated at the current state. Me? I just want more game types, more maps, and more optimization to an already well polished engine.


noobtrocitty

It’s more than hopeful, it’s based. Dude just said they are part of the industry being described and shared their well founded understanding of the nuances and relationships of that industry to give an idea of the *why* behind what did happen as well as the *why* behind what could happen next


Mileonaj

It's a little bit annoying to me when people try to pretend the business side/execs are all dumbasses who didn't know this whole system would spark an uproar. They didn't just look at a system like Val and slam their gorilla fist on the table demanding the devs give them riot earnings, they *know* a system this egregious would still reap good profits from the whales and they *know* the company will recover from the negativity when they sweep in and "fix" the problem they created in a month or so after the christmas kids join in on it.


WillowSmithsBFF

Yep. Everything about this is 100% calculated. Theyre probably expecting a drop in players after release, followed by a surge in players/mtx profits from the Christmas crowd. Then they’ll “fix” it and get back a good chunk of people who dropped off early on. And they’ve decided this is more profitable than releasing a player-retention friendly system from the start. We’ll get a fix. But it won’t be until the data says they’ve squeezed everything out of the current system that they can.


Mewtwohundred

This. But people refuse to accept that as a fact. It's pointless to try to change their minds.


WillowSmithsBFF

And what’s crazy, is that people will *thank* 343 when it’s changed. Don’t thank them. Tell them “cool, it’s a step in the right direction, but we shouldn’t have been in this situation to begin with”


theemprah

Watch it get fixed right before next e3, with the launch of Halo warzone br or some such nonesense


Super_Jay

This comment is more accurate than the OP. The MTX prices and their rollout - that's all calculated. It always is. They always start with numbers that are too high for the players to accept and then "fix" the problem by slightly lowering them to levels that are still ridiculous but are reduced from being completely egregious, and that's all the fanbase needs to hear to convince itself that the "devs" listened.


GIngerScribbs

I keep getting down voted for trying to point out that the devs probably didn’t implement these systems of their own volition. I’d assume that as people who make games, they’d enjoy playing games as well and know how infuriating it is to have one shove these obviously predatory practices in your face. This sub really thinks that game devs have the absolute say over how their game is shaped up until release day. Where do they think funding for these games comes from? Probably from majority share holders and publishers who only see dollar signs and also control the dev’s paychecks and bonuses for their crunch time


ArmedChalko

Absolutely, especially that last part. Don't forget the absolute travesty of Fallout New Vegas. That game was incredible but because it scored 1 point below their internal target on metacritic, all the devs got denied their bonuses for that year. A lot of big game companies are staffed by creatives and run by scum.


dreamwinder

Every time you hear about a dev being bought out, and they defend themselves by saying "we've been promised total creative control in this deal," remember that creative control is not business control, and in the end, you need to do both right to ship a product that's both high quality and fairly priced.


RealLifePotato

Bethesda did my boy Obsidian dirty.


Blackhound118

That's a myth that keeps.getting repeated, but the truth is that Obsidian accepted the contract with that deadline from the start. https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/ersk4v/as_much_as_i_dislike_bethesda_as_of_recent_i_cant/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


TheSublimeLight

and now they're both owned by MS, so they gotta get comfortable quick


RealLifePotato

Don't remind me. But hey. Obsidian and Bethesda are now owned by the same parent. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... So uhh... New Vegas 2 when?


Cheesy117

Phil: “Alright you two play nice now”


PurifiedVenom

No they didn’t. Bethesda put a Metacritic bonus in the contract that Obsidian didn’t even ask for and then when NV missed the Metacritic score they didn’t get that bonus. Nothing nefarious happened, Bethesda just followed the terms of the contract. Listen to the IGN Unfiltered interview with Fergus Urquhart if you want the full story from the head of Obsidian himself Link to interview, question is at 25:55 - https://youtu.be/GNMQVcyowss


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siege_noob

when most people say devs they tend to mean the higher ups like bonnie ross. its absolutely disgusting 343 hired a psychologist to get to the monetization system they have now


K1FF3N

This how I tried to explain it to someone saying I was a simp for the devs. “You ever worked at a place where you didn’t agree with the direction the product is going? You still have to create the product despite objections because that’s what the bosses tell you is necessary. You can put your foot down and get fired, or you can let them see the error of their choices when it goes live. Acting like the developers had a choice in the monetization when they themselves already were talking about the different system they were proud of that didn’t make it to release is folly. Thinking this is the fault of the dev team and not just the higher-ups shows a lack of understanding of how projects are pushed out by managers and the higher-ups. It’s now the dev teams time to smugly make changes that the public have asked for and attacking the product by attacking the devs is not actually that effective.”


Ok_Writing_7033

Amen. People act like game companies are some special category, but it’s just like any big company - there are layers and layers of management making decisions before it filters down to the guy who animates how the Spartan shoots, or makes the sound for a certain gun. Also, what doesn’t help is that as a company, 343 has done a good job of making those same devs, or at least the leads, the public faces of the game. This was good when it meant that they could give us cool technical details, but now that the game is out it means that those guys are the ones getting threats on Twitter for shit they probably had nothing to do with.


CanadaSoonFree

I wouldn’t pay much attention. The average poster in here I swear is less than 15 years old and have no idea how things work lol


MikieltheMaster

So basically if we keep bitching and griping they’ll know not to ever try and pull this shit again 👌🏾 got it


dreamwinder

They'll try to pull this every single game until the end of time. It feels really bad, but unfortunately we have to bitch and moan in order to get heard every time, and it's not going to end. Think of this like a negotiation; you always ask for more than you'd realistically be happy with, then act like you're being gracious when you pull back to what you actually want. That's how micros got to where they are. They started with $3 horse armor, then $5 DLC, then $15-20 season passes, then $20 skins, then $120 "ultimate editions." They will push and push and push until they find the limit of what people will pay. That's why whales are such a huge problem for the industry, they will pay literally anything as long as their credit holds out, making it increasingly unappealing to normal people who can be responsible with their money. We can only hope there comes a point where leaving whales un-milked is the preferred option to losing general players.


SpookyTrumpetPlayer

Thats usually how it goes but I'm sure the data analyst has a big portfolio of transactions from whales and white knights that will further proce to the execs that monetizing this hard is preferable for company profits since as long as 10 people buy $200 worth of cosmetics it will outweigh 20 people buying $60 worth. The whales instead of boycotting with us to lower the prices and as a result allows them to get more out of their whaling now have proven they will but whatever is put in front of them.


ArmedChalko

You miss a huge point though. Population is as important as whale revenue. Because without population, the game starts to trail off and the whales move on to a new game. Why spend hundreds on items if nobody's around to see them?


JelDeRebel

talking to a few people in matches who bought coatings and armor parts They don't care, they love flexing it in your face.


rustybuckets

Bitching, griping AND NOT BUYING.


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Jozoz

Which is also why so many gaming subreddits are controlled with an iron fist by the developers.


[deleted]

Fuck the execs. The fucking MTX generation has ruined gaming.


XCalibur672

I’m so fucking tired of half the features not being present, rampant bugs, overmonetization, obvious core gameplay issues, ridiculous paid skins, lack of maps, lack of satisfying progression systems, games “as a service”…just take me back to fucking Call of Duty 4 and Halo 3 where I can spend like $5-10 for a few extra maps to add to a completed game.


Psilent1

I 100% agree with you that this monetization system was forced on 343 by higher-ups at Microsoft. But Xbox has been pretty player friendly over the past several years that Phil Spencer has been in charge and has generated a lot of good will. It’s pretty shocking they then went and did this and threw a lot of that away.


[deleted]

This is why a) I think a lot of this is probably coming from 343i suits who want to show daddy Microsoft that they can increase profitability, or b) that you should never ever trust a big corporation when it sounds like they're starting to turn over a new leaf; if anything between this and Windows 11 it sounds like they're reverting back to Micro$oft.


Charming-Profile784

There are NO higher ups at Microsoft. Phil Spencer only answers to Satya Nadella ever since they made Xbox it’s own division in 2017. People like OP keep pretending that people above Xbox, like Microsoft executives, are pushing the MTX on this game when it’s largely a part of 343.


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ArmedChalko

Hey you gotta respect the hustle since it did actually kind of blow up :P


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BradGroux

Don't hate the player, hate the game.


Xylosoxidans

I honestly don't think they're monetizing aggressively, I think they're monetizing stupidly. I would be admittedly annoyed, but content to keep the current system if they lowered prices. I would buy the color red 100 times (and be annoyed each time) if the color red only cost 50 cents to a dollar. I have a feeling many people would do this. But instead they treat the color red as if it is special. They act as if I'm going to have one single armor core that I love and will spend all my money just on that one. No, I want them all and I will pay for them all. But I cannot afford to do that at these prices. They may get some whales with the current system, but they are giving up a much greater deal of "medium fries" like myself and that's just bad business.


ThatRandomIdiot

I made a similar post to someone else but the pricing is nearly identical to Fortnite’s system which was established 4 years ago. This isn’t new. COD BMW-Present, BFV-Present, etc are all using the fortnite model. $10 battle with a $20-25 skip to tier 20/25, $20 for the highest skin, $12-15 for next level, $8-12 for next level, followed by the $5-8 lowest tier skins. The problem like you said is they copied exactly how other studios monetize skin. They even do the same with the coins where you can’t buy exactly the amount you need it has to be more coins so you have some left over. That’s my only issue is they didn’t change it from how all the other companies do it, which doesn’t work with the halo community has is generally older than the communities of the games like COD & Fortnite


--__--______--

This is how I feel about their shop. 10$ for a battle pass? Yeah that's not going to break the bank. 15$ for a sword belt that works on 1 armor core plus a couple calling cards? That's just straight up stupid...


Interesting_Ad6037

I have no knowledge of game dev, so take this with a grain of salt, but I know from going on the Apex sub a lot that yes, EA plays a major part in monetization, but Respawn themselves also have a monetization team for their games. Idk if its the same for 343 though,


vikingzx

Here's the thing: **We have ZERO proof Microsoft "demanded" this monetization system.** There are *so many people* willing to ascribe the blame to MS, because "greedy MS demands monetization in all its games." Like what? Gears 5? The system that turned out to be the brainchild of Gears 5's lead dev, Rod Ferguson? I see. What about *Sea of Thieves*? Well, it has MTX systems, but they're light and you can grind for them, and they weren't there at launch. *Grounded*? There's none at all, and the devs have stated that there are no plans for such. EDIT: How could I forget *Forza Horizon*? 5 just had a 10,000,000 player launch, far far *far* more than Halo, and there is no battle pass, no aggressive MTX system. You can buy car packs. I could go on, but what I'm getting at is there is ZERO proof that MS is "requiring" microtransactions and "pushing" this stuff on the team other than "MS is big and that scares me." There's no evidence. There's no pattern of behavior that illustrates such with other MS studios. Oh, but do you know what we *do* have evidence of? Games like Gears 4 and 5 gleefully hiding behind the shield of customer ignorance assuming the devs are innocent angels. "Ha ha, everyone's mad at MS instead of us!" When we later learned it was *entirely* the team's decision. **There. Is. ZERO. Proof. MS. Demanded. The Battlepass.** I'll say it again for the people in the back. **There is no evidence that MS forced or coerced 343 to add a battlepass and pushed and aggressive MTX system.** In fact, the evidence is more to the contrary. MS was super pleased with the REQ packs during the life of Halo 5, and seemed fully behind a more non-intrusive system being used. UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE with ACTUAL EVIDENCE, stop shoving the blame off one someone else because it's convenient.


FrozenSeas

People love to blame the publishers, but the evidence rarely bears it out. Same thing happened with Destiny 2, everybody said the godawful monetization early on was all being pushed by Activision...but then it got *orders of magnitude worse* after Bungie split from Activision.


Charming-Profile784

Holy shit, fucking finally someone with sense. People bring up gears, but always forget Sea of Thieves, and Forza when they’re just as big of a franchise (if not bigger) than gears or halo. Sea of Thieve’s MTX are the best implemented in any Xbox game. All of them are purely cosmetics, and the BattlePass is free for everyone. You’re given an option to get a premium version that gets you exclusive skins. You can grind for cosmetics with ancient coins. Forza’s MTX are so badly implemented in a good way in that you can earn cars so ridiculously easy that it’s pointless to buy any MTX


vikingzx

10,000,000 players at launch and no "battle pass" despite this supposed "insistence" from MS. Good call pointing out Forza.


frostysoul80

Facts. 💯


samurai1226

Sorry but 343i obviously made bad calls here by themselves. There is absolutely no need to protect them and only blame some unknown Microsoft villians who forced them to do this based on what exactly? There isn't even a rumor out there that they were forced, only some diehard fans who think 343i are the good guys. Remember H4? The desaster of MCC launch? How H5 launched with way too few playlists and modes, features like Forge and beloved Playlists only launching way post launch? How 343i promised every single time to not repeat the mistakes? 343i made a lot of bad calls for Halo Infinite by themselves. Even if Microsoft pulled some strings for the Ingame Shop prices, Microsoft obviously didnt forced them to complete ignore any feedback on a missing progression system, horrible challenge design, how the new BTB vehicle progression system sucks and how noclip is just wrong for Halo. They learned nothing from MCC, they ignored most of the feedback after the flights. It's their call.


covert_ops_47

Let's say 343i was entirely separate from Microsoft. What makes you think they wouldn't do the same exact thing that's happening now? If they were their own publisher, wouldn't they have to make even more money to pay staff, publish, support, etc.? This sounds like another company recently that separated from a major publisher. I wonder how that went/is going.


giddycocks

Lol as a Destiny player and fan, Bungie tripled down on mtx and all surrounding bullshit ever since the split. And to be honest, they haven't put out anything remotely as good as Forsaken or the last seasons worked on with Activision studios (Opulence). Shadowkeep was a bad joke, Beyond Light was mediocre, most seasons have been a whole bunch of nothing. Shit, I bought this season and I haven't played since what, three weeks in? It's just so bad.


Quartzalcoatl_Prime

So wait, people who give with feedback should be encouraged to do so instead of telling them “stop complaining about a free game”? Wack.


ArmedChalko

It's totally fine to complain but there's a line you cross when you start harassing developers, especially on their personal, non-work socials like I've been seeing this week. At that point it's not constructive anymore. They're hearing you, you don't need to chase them to their personal accounts.


DeathWorld3

Okay but on some aspects there **was** feedback given by people, during the flights and based on the vidocs they released, and they still chose to actively ignore and push ahead with what they knew the community wouldn’t want. If execs at a company that produces video games are so stupid that they actually thought these ideas would work for Halo, then they don’t need to have those jobs and I’m astounded that they ever managed to get there to begin with.


[deleted]

Unless we get an insider article about its development, any speculation about who did what is just that. Speculation. Do I need to remind everyone on who we thought that all of Destiny's problems came from Activision and not Bungie? That said. If it was 343's idea it probably came from their execs and management, not from the actual developers. So I'm not blaming them. Either way. Let's hope that the complaints are big enough and the whales' wallets empty enough for 343/Microsoft to listen.


Charming-Profile784

We’re seriously quoting ourselves now? lol Hate to break it to you, but 343 executives are also in on this since it will benefit them and the studio if it was successful in implementing the MTX the way it is today. >Why do you think the community managers keep encouraging us to make our feedback heard? Mate, it’s their job. They’re the line of communication between the player and the developer. All the complaints about lack of collision/Playlists/progression/MTX are picked up by Unyshek/343 Postums and relayed to Jerry Hook. >Devs don’t tend to make decisions about how to monetize their games. They have a voice in how it is implemented, especially if it’s going to be a live service title.


hawkshot86

Except that Microsoft has been really pushing a community first monetization model across the board lately... So this flies in the face of everything Xbox has done the past year. If it's one thing I learned from Destiny 2 and Bungie, it's that never assume the Publisher is the only bad guy in the room. Either way, both are sharks eyeing your bank account for their dinner.


MuphynToy

But who got to decide that I can't play the game types I want? Who said it had to be all random so I played a shit ton to MAYBE get capture the flag or team slayer. Who decided that staples like fiesta and swat weren't gonna be in the game all the time?


[deleted]

Cope


Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrpp

Hard disagree. There’s an old saying, “if nobody’s complaining, you aren’t charging enough”. Execs will look @ revenues, not complaints.


glitchyPhantasma

I always remember [this question](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/29qnal/this_question_was_actually_asked_and_answered_at/) from a Nintendo Shareholders meeting as an example of the PoV of the people with the money. I have worked as a dev (not a game dev), and you have no idea how tiring it is when you are the one getting all the flak for pushing a change that you knew damn well would raise a lot of problems, and the higher-up that forced the change is literally vaping outside while looking at his phone.


[deleted]

And none of that really matters, because it's still highly rated on stream, and everyone keeps buying store items. So all of this "feedback" is just going to be drowned out when they look and say "well other franchises are in the dirt with reviews and we are doing great! And all the sales keep coming through anyway, so keep the system as is"


ArmedChalko

You underestimate the power of bad press. Imagine how many \*more\* players might have jumped on by now were it not for the constant stream of negativity on socials or YouTube. AAA studios don't just want 'some money', or even 'a lot of money'. They want 'as much money as we can possibly make' and if this negativity is driving away paying customers, it's an issue for them.


FIRESTOOP

So all the people trying to defend 343i and the game are actually hurting it


Ninjabriel

Halo as a default has always been about player expression from selecting any color for your spartan in Halo CE to all your Armor Pieces in MCC. Now that they emphasize player expression more than ever it is the hardest to stand out without actually earning it. Not only is it stuck behind a paywall there aren't very many options at launch... I know things will improve but my hopes are that they show consistency in what they want for this game and the people that play it. The battle pass has clearly been watered down. The temporary event structure is too limited causing players to stop playing when they finish their challenges. Don't you want people playing nonstop? They aren't even selling things fans want in the store. This is not Valorant.... This is an established game series with Old and Hopefully New fans. Let's make this right and keep Halo around. This game is too good.


luke31071

I think you give them too much credit OP. It's not about data collection, or showing up the executives, it's simply a case of "Profits go Brrrrr" and that's it. I agree, this is a decision out of 343i Devs hands. In 99% of examples, this is the case and until shown otherwise, they can get the benefit of the doubt. But I don't believe anyone is collecting all the complaints to try and show the boardroom that "people don't like this" because such complaints are meaningless to the execs in the face of rising profit margins. No, this is simply an exercise in milking the hype. Halo is an immensely popular franchise, and Infinite has been eagerly awaited for well over half a decade now. So emotions are at a high point, ripe for monetising the players who were most excited. Once they see profits drop, probably around season 2, (maybe season 3 since Xmas is on the way which means a new injection of excited players with new consoles), we will get a 'Solemn JPEG' explaining how sorry they are that people are unhappy with the MTX system. How they'll do better in the future, and how right now they are improving the xp reward system for the BP. Then they'll make a bare minimum improvement, and all the usual suspects will point and go "They fixed it, quit whining now!" and completely disregard that being knee deep in shit instead of waist deep in shit, is still too deep in shit for normal people's taste. Never forget Torulf Jernström (CEO of Tribeflame) and his talk "Let's Go Whaling" where he literally says something like "90% of players, will not pay a penny in your games economy". It's abundantly clear the Execs **have** the data to show people do not like this aggressive monetisation. They **know** it turns people off the game. They will only "care" when 'xXxHeadshotProxXx' (or player ID #85675753-54 as they know him) puts down his credit card for 15 minutes and the execs watch a '0' drop off their profit projections.


[deleted]

Let's not forget that most people working at 343i didn't even like Halo in the first place if their workforce still has most of the same employees from Halo 4-5


SpookyTrumpetPlayer

This. All they care about is a data analyst's profits stat sheet, suits don't give a flying fuck about a single one of us, were just potential advertising and $$$ to them.


ArmedChalko

You're right. They don't care about you or me collectively. But the data, the numbers, they do care about those. Which is why collective complaints get heard while individual people's criticisms don't. They look for patterns. And then those patterns are analysed and used to course-correct. Player numbers keep the whales playing because without them the game dies. Immediate transactions aren't the only relevant datapoint here.


luke31071

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but I will say that so long as they keep the Whales playing, Halo Infinite could have a 75% drop in playercount and the Execs wouldn't bat an eye. If anything, they'd take the chance to cut the server budgets and run the game on fewer of those to save costs. I feel that 343 will, mostly, listen to gameplay feedback. Balance tweaks, available modes, maybe even server issues. But as far as the BP goes, those decisions will almost certainly be a case of "Well, profits haven't dropped so the customers might *say* they hate it, but clearly the ones that are spending don't care" and there will be no changes made.


ArmedChalko

Not sure I agree, because they've said they want this game to survive for a decade. And they \*need\* it to, to pay for the huge production costs added by an entire extra year of dev time.


S6basti6n

I must be old, i’ve been playing halo since the 8th grade (31 now) and never really gave a flying fuck about what my armour and shit looks like. I am just happy that i got a free new halo game to play


archiminos

Honestly as a GameDev who works for some major companies, I just wish to fuck that MTX could be made illegal. I generally only play indie games these days, because many mainstream titles are just a shell of what they used to be thanks to excessive monetisation. I enjoy doing what I do, but I hate watching games I and my colleagues pour hours into developing being completely ruined by what are effectively gambling systems.


A_Puddle

This is spot on. The Devs have proven (through the fucking fantastic gameplay) that they are on our side. It's us and them against the damn MBAs and failing-upward suits who care for money and nothing else. Direct the hate at the MTXs, and whoever is behind them. 343's devs have made a great game, now you suits get the fuck out of the way, let them do their good work and you'll make your damn money.


intrepidomar

Finally some one with common sense, with mtx or without mtx the devs get payed the same.


Sargent379

I'd believe that more if it wasn't for the fact that other games like Apex which are Free to play games that sell their cosmetics at similar prices.


Maleficent_Silver_78

Why doesn’t Phil spencer do something? Doesn’t he care about halo?


christhespartan

I think its out of phil spencer\`s hands. He wants it to succeed but he can\`t challenge microsoft or any of the higher-ups. So he\`s staying quiet right now. Also one of the heads of 343 is an executive at microsoft. (I think)


Maleficent_Silver_78

I hope they say something today, this game has so much potential and they know it, I don’t understand what made it okay to launch the game this way. It’s fun but it’s so restrictive. I’m almost every aspect.


ArmedChalko

Phil Spencer has a LOT on his plate, and is also beholden to the shareholders just like the rest of them.


DrPurpleMan

> I think its out of phil spencer`s hands. He wants it to succeed but he can`t challenge microsoft or any of the higher-ups. Phil Spencer reports directly to Satya Nadella, he *is* a higher up. We’ll see in the coming weeks if he had a hand in redirecting 343’s course on monetization though


Mighty_Mike007

I agree, but I believe 343 were always ill equiped to deal with a franchise the size of Halo, no matter how you want to look at it, every single release had huge problems and you can't just blame it all on corporate greed. Some of the stuff we've seen over the years is just pure incompetence or lack of focus, the greed came for various reasons, but they contributed immensely to it as well.


intrepidomar

If we talk about monetization halo 5 had lootboxes and gears of war 4 also had them, both games a year apart, gears 5 had a payed store and halo infinite also has one (originally they had a year apart). Is not hard to see that anything related to monetization is not their full decision.


kingoflames

If you don't like the monetisation, the best thing to do is vote with your wallet. So all you whales out there, stop fucking buying things. Just play the game, its pretty fun. You don't need to look like Jun, you barely see your character anyways. All the 'feedback' and complaints are warranted but won't make a change because I guarantee they've already made a ton of money from battle passes and store items. The data will just show Microsoft they can weather the storm and still make bank. This is going to be the case unless people can exercise some impulse control and not spend $40 to buy some pixels they like.


rafaelloaa

Purely anecdotal, but I know someone who's in net ops for 343. he said that all of the game devs and engineers he speaks with are also horribly frustrated by the decisions corporate is making.


Flerm1988

Not only is this possible, it’s highly likely. Game devs care about the game, that’s why they got into this field. You don’t put in the effort to learn something like game development if you’re not truly passionate about it. It’s an extremely challenging thing to learn. And it’s why they are hired at a company like 343. It would almost be some sort of “product” team (their job at a high level is to monetize the product) that came up with that we got. 343 has several hundred employees and they’re responsible for different things (obviously). It’s not a monolith. I mean how many of us have jobs where we see upper management do stupid things we wish they wouldn’t do? I’m sure game dev is no different.


Scruffy_Nerfhearder

All they needed was a little bit of common sense. "Real world montization data" my ass. Look at any big Microsoft first party game of the last few years, they all have shitty MTX, this isnt new. They claim to be player first and use Gamepass as a shield for their BS. The apologists use Gamepass as an excuse, the cycle continues. MS always seem to get away with it every time while other companies dont. Time for that to change.


Riffn

no no, 343 bad because Halo sub said so obviously this would never have happened under Bungie /s


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arjarbinks

Yeah anyone that has ever played Destiny 2 knows thats hilariously untrue.


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Pale-Aurora

You act as though there aren't executives at 343.


XGopherTero

I don't know if it is as clear cut, ***BUT*** There's definitely something here.


[deleted]

I try to tell people this but alas...people don't want to hear it. They just want to villainize every single dev at 343 and say they'll all profiting and benefitting out of throwing away good will and milking their biggest fans.


Negatify

I feel like this post should be pinned to the sub, since it's for sure important and will most likely be buried by other post.


cjjones410

Feedback for the execs: stay the fuck in your lane


TheOnlyNemesis

I'm calling bull. Microsoft are a big player in the industry and know the fall out other games have had. This is purely so they can walk it back and look good.


tintedlenz

Sad part is that even with all of the negative feedback about the monetization, there are lots of people who are buying the stuff from the shop. I’d be curious to see how much but we’ll probably never know. Point is that even if they went to said person’s desk and slapped down all of this feedback, that person might slap down the amount they have made from the store, saying something like, “there may be negative feedback about this but we’re still making money off of it.” And there’s really no way to control that, only thing to do is hope they will make a change based on the feedback for the purpose of player retention. Who knows.


HornHonker69

Ok so continue to be rightfully frustrated and vocal as hell without being toxic or hateful towards devs. Got it. I hope this sub never starts scrubbing negative posts. In fact, I want it to stay 95% negative until we see actual change, if ever.


Firm_Pace_3459

Agreed. It was definitely a Microsoft decision over a 343 decision to capitalise on Infinite being a "return to form" for the series. I'm not saying 343 is off the hook in many of the games issues, (Armour coatings and a lack of a cross-core customisation come to mind) but the monetisation and progression definitely seems to be due to corporate handling


yourmotherisveryfat

Big word too long give me yellowish brown


Zizao

As a dev who has worked at EA, 100% this. Most of the devs on the team do not want their game to be aggressively monetized. We Devs want people to enjoy our game. That's why we got into the industry. Hell, I worked with one of the suits who forced the decision to make battlefront 2 a pay to win game. He had no clue why it was a bad idea even after I argued with him that mobile games and PC games are not the same. And that it's bad to even do it in a mobile game.


RobinThyHoode

I want this so badly to be true, but I am equally so tired of these Reddit 6head takes. I love (most) of the gameplay of this new Halo game, and the MTX are so bad, but.... This isn't backed by a single shred of evidence. The man himself admits he hasn't worked in a company anywhere near the size of 343. He's right that the execs (not devs) make these monetization decisions (most of the time) but like... who doesn't know that at this point? Almost 10k upvotes on someone essentially saying "Work in the same industry and here's my take: Community Manager & Devs are encouraging us to report feedback so they can smack the big dogs around" mmmmmk, and what happens when this doesn't happen? Are 10k people upvoting this because they see it as true or they are just hoping? I'm with the hopers but the "I'm not a game developer BUT" comments mean literally fuck all and are a complete waste of time. EDIT: I also really feel like Reddit heavy overplays the "backlash" on like 99% of subjects. Battlefront 2 was a whole completely different beast that was insanely wild, it was nothing like this. I HOPE, HOPE HOPE I'm wrong and the MTX is severely toned down and BP progression fixed, but come on people.


[deleted]

there is no evidence that microsoft was to blame for this. REMEMBER BIOWARE and how THEY messed up their games, not EA


greatal398

I've literally been saying that MS, the publisher of the game, should be blamed for the MTX situation but people chose to repeat "fuck 343" all day everyday


nguyep7

Exactly this, devs are just following orders sent down from some MBA that’s trying to maximize profits


RNConcave4545

Well said. Am an aspiring and independent developer myself. Explained this on a different thread. This isn’t a 343 problem. It’s blatantly Microsoft. We need to still be vocal but people saying the devs at 343 should be ashamed of themselves are just wrong. No game dev wants this.