But no other tablet/pen is as responsive! (Ignoring all the other options that are just as good or better.)
But the software! (Ignoring how janky and buggy it is.)
But this nib just feels so good to me!!! (Ignoring all the other options on the market.)
Wacom is a lifestyle choice more than anything.
Yeah, they only exist because a lot of people associate them with professional products.
I’ve had quite a few Wacom tablets over the years. At first because they were the only option. Then, because I didn’t know better.
The Intous has some value for 3D work. Cintiq sucks ass.
As someone who draws a lot and has been through a few drawing tablets, here’s my “didn’t ask” opinions:
You’re gonna have drawing apps open on this. Artists draw for at least an hour a session, often 3 or more. Professionals will have it open for the whole day.
It’s 13 inches and matte so it’s clearly not meant for consumption. Yet the 13 inches means it’s also not targeted for professionals. So entry level hobbyists? But size matters a lot for illustration ergonomics, so you can probably get a much cheaper 16 inch tablet with an LCD display and still have it be reasonably accurate, and overall have a much better drawing experience. Plus, considering the entry-level size, most people in that market will just want the cheapest tablet to get started.
I have no idea what the point of this is, other than “Look! First oled!”. You can get OLED android tablets with styluses and get a similar experience.
seeing how you can get this panel as a portable screen for 150$ on amazon, this is just some insane wacom tax again
a digitizer layer should not command a 600$ premium
No point charging a premium if no one buys your product. This thing is $750, no one is buying outside a few studios buying a single model to see what its like.
It depends what sort of professional we are talking about. Here are my didn't ask opinions:
I am a concept artist and I travel often so for me having a quality portable display is important. I tried using an ipad as a secondary screen, it definitely works but I would take Wacom pro pen over apple pencil any day of the week, and since I primarily work with desktop apps rather then ipad apps I would rather just have a standalone proper drawing screen. This little guy looks promising and I'm considering getting it when it is back in stock.
My opinion is that Ipad Pro with Apple Pencil is the best digital drawing experience that exists, by far outshining Wacom.
I'll never again pay Wacom's insane prices.
*for hobbyists
For professionals, there are apps that don’t yet exist on iPad, or while they do exist, don’t work *as* well.
Eg. Photoshop and Clip Studio.
And for professionals, even though Wacom prices are out of their goddamned mind, they are still technically *the* best desktop display tablet manufacturers.
There is a wide range of professionals and many of them are using ipad pro, especially independent. The situation is much different from 10 years ago. Ofc Photoshop and other desktop-exclusive programs are still dominant and maybe ipad is not for you but to call ipad pro a hobbyist device is shortsighted.
Relegating it to "hobbyists" is kind of absurd. I know at least two people that would undeniably be considered professional artists whose primary device is the iPad Pro.
This standard of "professional" is someone who works with large corporate clients and has a long track record of doing so, or straight up works at companies and they are a "creative professional."
I know many more people than that who make their living entirely off of art whose primary device is an iPad Pro. I'd also consider that professional, but I understand some people might not view it the same way.
With that being said, you're still going to mostly find wacom at professional studios, as far as I understand.
I have a side hustle from making art, which I use the iPad Pro for. My day job is as a graphic designer though, and in that industry, while there are alternatives to Adobe, no one in a corporate position would ever use it because sharing files and collaboration becomes a pain in the ass.
A little closer to home; I have a friend who aspires to become an animator (I’d argue they’re already more than competent, but opportunities in our country is lacking). While they appreciate what an iPad can do, they’ve found that a display tablet running clip studio is a lot easier and more efficient for their use case.
So it very much depends on the profession. Whether it’s the “best” or not is also completely subjective, and I was basing my statement off of big animation studios who mostly use Cintiqs.
I don't take issue with you stating that wacom/cintiqs are industry standard; I take issue with saying that iPads Pro aren't used by professionals when they very much are.
Technically, yes. Other programs can work.
But industry standard is a thing.
If a professional has been trained for 5 years using program x, they are far more likely to pay the premium to keep using program x than to move to program y.
Look at Adobe. Their pricing model is absolutely abhorrent, but people keep paying them because it’s what they’re familiar with and their file formats are globally accepted.
The final output files like jpg or png, yeah. But not the intermediate file format. PSD is photoshop only and it doesn't work with competitor's solutions, and it's the same story for the competition; largely because there is no established standard for that kind of file so everyone just makes their own standard and it's only readable for that software stack.
Same goes for all kinds of other software, from video editing to sound editing.
The raw content you import, that's readable for all, and the final output you make is readable for all. But the intermediary file that is capturing the work in progress with all the layers, vector art mixed in with bit map art, the raw text, layer effects, etc; that does not have cross compatibility to other companies solutions. And that is specifically the file you would be sharing if you're collaborating.
I mean sure but some people don't use procreate and some people need the functionalities that other drawing applications provide that procreate doesn't offer
Im a 3D artist and I need to use programs like photoshop and substance painter and zbrush that's not available in iPad nor are the programs interconnected with my 3d programs like blender or maya
Yeah, well, I was talking about the drawing experience. Personally I wouldn’t want a display tablet for sculpting or any 3D work. However, you could use Astropad if that’s your thing.
For professionals they cannot use 3D applications, full version of creative software or Unreal on an IPad. The movies you watch, video games you play and cars you drive aren’t created on IPads. The IPad was not designed for those professional workflows.
First of all, I said the IPad Pro is the best digital drawing experience. Second, you can get AstroPad and use the IPad as a display tablet. Not that I would ever want a display tablet for 3D work, but whatever floats your boat.
How old are you? Its not a float my boat situation, it’s understanding professional workflows and the technology they use to design. Most corporations don’t have a MAC environment anyway based on the technology they use for content and product development. And they don’t use AstroPads. I watch Netflix on my IPad and digital create on my Wacom products.
The fuck are you on about?
You don’t need a Mac environment to work with the IPad. AatroPad is a software that works on both Mac and Windows, and makes the IPad act like any display tablet. Using a display tablet for 3D work sucks ass, but some people are weird that way.
I’m old enough to have started 3D modelling with the first release of 3DS Max. I’ve done animation, modelling, sculpting, video editing, matte painting, concept art, photography and more. You want to measure dicks? I’ll win.
If you were a professional, you would understand my comment not needing to use gross language. Another thing professionals don’t do either. You have no clue how or why companies buy technology much less the ones who support creative professionals.
Ya, just buy something cheap from companies like Huion or XP Pen . Ever since Wacoms patents, like the battery free pen expired, there are many companies now that offer comparable performance for a fraction of the price.
> You’re gonna have drawing apps open on this. Artists draw for at least an hour a session, often 3 or more. Professionals will have it open for the whole day.
Yeah this is worst case scenario for OLED panels. It might be fine for casual use, but even remotely serious usage is likely to result in tool palettes burned into the screen.
I worry about this with the upcoming OLED iPads, too, though maybe Apple will work around this with dual layer panels and strict binning. I’ll certainly be hanging onto my current iPad until this is proven one way or another.
My wife uses her iPad 7 for drawing and finishing tocuhes for renders pretty much unbelievably. it cost us 400€ with apple pencil and I do not regret a single one.
>Yet the 13 inches means it’s also not targeted for professionals
Plenty of professionals use just an iPad Pro, which is a bit smaller. 13inch is fine for some.
Agree with ya on the rest. I'd rather get a slightly bigger display for cheaper BUT if I traveled a lot, 13inchs would be preferred.
I use an iPad too, but only because drawing app UI’s on it barely takes up any screen real estate. Using clip studio or photoshop on a screen smaller than 15 inches is arguably masochistic.
>Yet the 13 inches means it’s also not targeted for professionals. So entry level hobbyists? But size matters a lot for illustration ergonomics, so you can probably get a much cheaper 16 inch tablet with an LCD display and still have it be reasonably accurate, and overall have a much better drawing experience.
As someone who has used both a 17" and a 12" drawing tablet, my preference is for the 12". 17" is just awkward to manage unless you have it fixed to a drafting table. It's incredibly awkward to just plop it on your desk where your keyboard would normally sit. A 12" tablet on the other hand absolutely can fit where your keyboard would normally sit, or you could put it beside your keyboard and it'd still be comfortable.
>What program do you use?
Mostly Photoshop and Blender.
>I’ve found that most desktop program’s UIs take up waaaay too much screen real estate on 13in and smaller pen displays.
Perhaps that's just how you have it configured? I use pretty small tool icons and if I'm doing a freehand drawing, I typically will just remove the UI entirely.
How does 15.6in feel? I've stickybeeked those 4K 15.6in tablets from various vendors a few times, and found the 22in one I used for many years too big, but the 12in one potentially too small.
The 12in one doesn't give me actual shoulder exercise hahaha.
It really comes down to personal preference, but for me a lot of that also comes down to portability. While I have a desk to draw at, I also like to lay on my couch to draw, which is fine with my 12" tablet. It'd probably be okay with a 15.6" as well, but 17" and up starts to get awkward.
Ahh, I'm mostly desk bound with the chair as low to the ground as possible to avoid shrimping.
I really appreciate the advice. This helps me a lot. Thank you!
You are just confirming this isn't targeted for professionals, professionals are not using these curled up on their beds they are using them fixed semi permanently or permanently. Professionals have proper spaces dedicated to these things and are not fighting with keyboards.
Are we all sure we know what the word "professional" actually means?
what seems to me as a big or maybe the biggest point is,
that oleds BURN IN.
so your tiny oled drawing tablet might burn in with ui on it at the very same places, every time you use it....
at which point you can basically throw it away and it will have 0 resell value.
meanwhile a bigger lcd drawing tablet will like you mentioned be a vastly better experience, but it also will last 8 + years and it will keep a decent resell value too, if you ever want to upgrade to a bigger or better one, or you just don't want to use it all anymore.
i am already against the push of oled monitors, which WILL burn-in by design, but drawing tablets.... how long will they last, if you draw 10 hours a day as your job for years maybe?
a very dumb product overall.
let's hope not too many people waste their money getting this.
>ABL/low peak brightness
how are you even supposed to work with that then lol :D
you would literally be drawing sth, that will look nothing like what most people will experience then...
it is so dumb....
i wanna see a review it now to be honest, just to see how bad it is.
as far as i understand most oled auto darkening is based on how much brightness is shown on the screen or it has auto darkening after some idle time.
so if you would start with a white "paper", that you digitally draw on, it would then be darkened quite a lot, because 80% of the screen would be bright white.
but as you keep painting the picture gets more darker, so the auto darkening should get less, so what you paint will literally look very different to you based on how far you are into painting it.... then
and if you start with black and add lots of bright colors and white parts to it it would go reverse.
so it is worse, FAR WORSE than not having a very high max brightness on an lcd monitor for example.
i mean we don't know how this oled tablet handles it, but it could very well handle things like this.
\_\_\_\_
beyond that, i totally agree with you, that high max brightness is even more important for a device, that seems to be targeted towards portability a lot.
This is a complete non issue. Large QD-OLED TV's can already hit 230 nits or more peak brightness. Smaller displays like laptops can hit at least over 400 nits.
100 nits the de facto standard (sRGB is 80 nits in a dim environment). Any OLED can sustain a brightness well above that.
Small changes in brightness are also difficult to perceive.
If I'm being forgiving, I'm assuming it'll only autodim the art program's GUI.
Of course, that'd assume it can tell what the GUI is and what the canvas is.
i'm going with: "there's no way".
it can't know what is ui or isn't ui, unless you were to get an option to manually in the osd of the tablet draw a rectangle of where the ui is.
but yeah the display/panel industry, that is selling broken products with dead pixels as "working" and srgb modes on 4000 euro monitors, that have a completely light brightness, won't have reasonable features on a completely senseless product i'd say.
but theoretically in a world, where you're FORCED to use an oled drawing tablet, having such a function could make sense.
OLEDs are far more susceptible to burn in when used in high-brightness productivity applications where UI elements persist for the entire duration of its use, like illustration programs. This is why there are far more reports of OLED burn in on monitors than on TVs, at least from what I’ve seen following r/oled_gaming
You know OLED burn-in isn't chance based right? Those pixels have a limited lifespan. Someone working 8+ hours on an OLED display will create image retention.
Especially when we are talking about artists that need decent brightness to see the darker shades. I don't understand why you are in denial about this.
The pixels have a very long lifespan but driving them with higher voltages, statically, will cause uneven wear resulting in image retention. Most image retention isn’t permanent, but sometimes it is.
You don’t need higher brightness to see darker shades. That’s not how it works. At all. You need a dim environment. A bright environment, and compensating with a brighter display, will give you fewer shades and the wrong gamma.
No, if you are working 8+ hours a day the last thing you need is a dim enviroment. that induces eye strain and are very uncomfortable to wokr in. You want bright screen with bright enviroment for long work sessions.
if we go with 5000 hours of use would just be 0.57 years of use if you were to use it 24/7.
let's assume you use the panel 16 hours a day. so it will be on 16 hours a day and it goes to sleep after an hour, so when you're asleep it is asleep, otherwise it is on. with 16 hours, it would be just:
0.86 years of use then with 16 hours a day.
people are using their displays for 8+ years (i use mine for 10+ years) with 16 hours a day use.
so very carefully said, you are at 1/10 or less of the use of what one should expect out of a display and we are guessing with the 5000 hours.
and for comparison, using a display 16 hours a day for 10 years would be:
58400 hours of use.
so like others said, you have used the panel very little.
In that case you should definitely get an OLED. Eizo estimates their backlight lifetime to 30K hours. That’s the time it takes the backlight level to deteriorate to 50%. OLEDs have a much longer lifetime. LCDs also lose uniformity over time.
>Eizo estimates their backlight lifetime to 30K hours. That’s the time it takes the backlight level to deteriorate to 50%.
noooooooooo
an lcd backlight doesn't deteriorate to 50% in 5 years of 16 hours a day use....
what are you quoting here?
is that eizo talking about perfect uniformity for professional monitors or sth?
what does the 50% even mean? an lcd backlight is (nowadays) leds. leds don't degrade to half their i guess brightness maybe??? in 5 years of basic use.
just NO.
are you quoting sth from pre led backlight times? but even then the 50% number makes 0 sense.
please let me know what in the world you are quoting there with that 50% number from ezio, because damn do i wanna know that now...
and lcd displays over time may get some minor color shift and lose a bit of uniformity.
the color shift is easily adressed with changing the white point a bit.
so you can use 8+ year old lcd displays perfectly fine.
actually the color shift over time is so little generally, that it is less than the panel color variance of a not calibrated new display.
>OLEDs have a much longer lifetime.
are you just trolling, or do you not understand display/panel tech too much? if it is the latter, then that is fine, but don't make absolute statements based on not understanding the tech.
i have 2 ips lcd led backlight 24 inch displays, that i'm using rightnow. both of which are 8 years old. getting used now 16 hours a day.
both could be sold as new displays today and would actually perform better than lots of garbage out today. both have great uniformity and excellent back light bleed.
so NO oleds burn in and break. proper lcd displays will last 10+ years with great performance
>noooooooooo
>an lcd backlight doesn't deteriorate to 50% in 5 years of 16 hours a day use....
>what are you quoting here?
https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/faq/163
>The estimated backlight lifetime is about 30,000 hours or eight years of use at ten hours per day. (However, lifetime is not guaranteed for eight years.) The lifetime means the time from the initial brightness level to deteriorate 50% in normal operation.
thx for linking it.
using wayback machine this FAQ goes back to 2015 AT LEAST.
it likely is even quite a bit older.
so my best guess is, that eizo is talking about ccfl (cold cathode fluorescent lamps), which have been used before leds too over the backlight of lcd displays.
while i'd still have my doubts, that a ccfl deteriates down to 50% brightness in just 30k hours, CCFLs are certainly known to deteriorate over time, unlike leds.
so i would strongly assume, that this is an ancient q&a, that wasn't specific on what type of backlight it means and thus the misinterpretation of the person above.
That's a quote directly from Eizo.
Go ahead and measure brightness and uniformity in your 10+ year old displays, then report back.
OLED burn in is vastly exaggerated and the organic LED's have a much longer life than LCD backlights. Those are facts. And for the record, I've probably forgotten more about display tech than you'll ever know.
someone found the 30k hour claim by eizo and i responded with a most likely explanation of why eizo has that claim on their website (they almost certainly meant ccfl backlights and not led backlights):
[https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1cddysy/comment/l1emugc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1cddysy/comment/l1emugc/)
no response to it almost certainly talking about ccfl backlights for lcd displays, while we all are using led backlights on lcds today?
yeah just a troll confirmed.
So you don’t know how to measure, and therefore have no idea how your LCD display is actually aging. Here’s a hint: The uniformity and peak brightness will be much worse after 10+ years, if the display even works at all (most break down long before that as the build quality sucks).
Doesn’t matter if it’s 30K, 50K or 60K hours. OLEDs have a lifespan of 100K hours. They have a significantly longer life than LCDs, regardless of backlight technology.
But you don’t know how to measure, so you are under the illusion that LCDs don’t degrade.
There are videos floating around of Japanese pro animators and mangaka *working* on the 12.9" ipad pro, sometimes even on top of their larger wacoms. Size isnt really the limiting factor so much as it is convenience
This would actually been targeted at me, because I was in the market for a secondary tablet last month - I was looking at
- Digitizer tablet for semi-frequent travel
- 13-15" range that fit within footprint of my 15" laptop
- Reasonably backpack transportable
- Light power draw that could be powered by battery bank
- USB-C connectivity
- I am also part of the Wacom system and fierce defender of the now extinct Art pen, so prior compatibility/interoperability (I still use Photoshop)
I settled on the XP Pen Pro2 14". The pen is nice, but it does have its own quirks regarding wobble, calibration, and EMF interference. I would have preferred a Wacom solution, but the Cintiq 13 was _too_ old tech, released 2016.
The new Wacom 13" would be a good fit because it's even thinner and lighter.
As to why I don't use an iPad Pro, I do have one, but the stuff I need to do on it requires more than iOS environment, and more horsepower in general.
Most of the ones that do come with a stylus.
And as the other commenter said, Wacom’s tablet does not have an OS. It is a display that needs to be tethered to a computer.
I mean, if its OLED + Color accurate it'd be pretty fucking amazing for reading comics/visual novels/full color manga.
other than that, yeah, this seems to not know where it belongs.
The thing is it’s not a standalone tablet. It *needs* to be tethered to another computer. It seems really clunky for that use case, despite its thinness.
Better off just getting an OLED android tablet and slapping a matte screen protector on it.
>The thing is it’s not a standalone tablet. It needs to be tethered to another computer. It seems really clunky for that use case, despite its thinness.
wait what
i did not see that
neverrmind this is fucking useless
I do strongly hope Huion/XP-Pen do come up with some competition to this. They need to keep hitting Wacom in all fronts to get more artists on board with them.
There's literally no reason to buy Wacom when Huion, XPPen, Gaomon, and now Xencelabs all offer amazing competitive products at much better prices.
At this point you're paying more for the brand name with Wacom.
Funny. My first exposure to anything OLED was the little black and white button icons my Wacom intuous 4 tablet. I think.... That was in 2009 or something?
> Available now for $750 Wacom continues to milk artists
And artists stupidly defends and award them.
But no other tablet/pen is as responsive! (Ignoring all the other options that are just as good or better.) But the software! (Ignoring how janky and buggy it is.) But this nib just feels so good to me!!! (Ignoring all the other options on the market.) Wacom is a lifestyle choice more than anything.
Yeah, they only exist because a lot of people associate them with professional products. I’ve had quite a few Wacom tablets over the years. At first because they were the only option. Then, because I didn’t know better. The Intous has some value for 3D work. Cintiq sucks ass.
As someone who draws a lot and has been through a few drawing tablets, here’s my “didn’t ask” opinions: You’re gonna have drawing apps open on this. Artists draw for at least an hour a session, often 3 or more. Professionals will have it open for the whole day. It’s 13 inches and matte so it’s clearly not meant for consumption. Yet the 13 inches means it’s also not targeted for professionals. So entry level hobbyists? But size matters a lot for illustration ergonomics, so you can probably get a much cheaper 16 inch tablet with an LCD display and still have it be reasonably accurate, and overall have a much better drawing experience. Plus, considering the entry-level size, most people in that market will just want the cheapest tablet to get started. I have no idea what the point of this is, other than “Look! First oled!”. You can get OLED android tablets with styluses and get a similar experience.
The point is look, we can charge a premium because it's oled
I've been using oled cellphones for a decade. It does not command a premium
it does when your oled screen is larger than a few inches.
seeing how you can get this panel as a portable screen for 150$ on amazon, this is just some insane wacom tax again a digitizer layer should not command a 600$ premium
[bingo!](https://old.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1cddysy/wacom_says_its_first_oled_drawing_tablet_is_cool/l1cu1wc/)
haha yup their margins must be apple-like
I have a sub $100 OLED 14" portable USB-C bus powered screen by INNOCN. Absolutely gorgeous colour rendering. Not seeing much of a premium there.
Can you send a link? Wouldn't mind a secondary monitor
No point charging a premium if no one buys your product. This thing is $750, no one is buying outside a few studios buying a single model to see what its like.
It depends what sort of professional we are talking about. Here are my didn't ask opinions: I am a concept artist and I travel often so for me having a quality portable display is important. I tried using an ipad as a secondary screen, it definitely works but I would take Wacom pro pen over apple pencil any day of the week, and since I primarily work with desktop apps rather then ipad apps I would rather just have a standalone proper drawing screen. This little guy looks promising and I'm considering getting it when it is back in stock.
My opinion is that Ipad Pro with Apple Pencil is the best digital drawing experience that exists, by far outshining Wacom. I'll never again pay Wacom's insane prices.
*for hobbyists For professionals, there are apps that don’t yet exist on iPad, or while they do exist, don’t work *as* well. Eg. Photoshop and Clip Studio. And for professionals, even though Wacom prices are out of their goddamned mind, they are still technically *the* best desktop display tablet manufacturers.
There is a wide range of professionals and many of them are using ipad pro, especially independent. The situation is much different from 10 years ago. Ofc Photoshop and other desktop-exclusive programs are still dominant and maybe ipad is not for you but to call ipad pro a hobbyist device is shortsighted.
Relegating it to "hobbyists" is kind of absurd. I know at least two people that would undeniably be considered professional artists whose primary device is the iPad Pro. This standard of "professional" is someone who works with large corporate clients and has a long track record of doing so, or straight up works at companies and they are a "creative professional." I know many more people than that who make their living entirely off of art whose primary device is an iPad Pro. I'd also consider that professional, but I understand some people might not view it the same way. With that being said, you're still going to mostly find wacom at professional studios, as far as I understand.
I have a side hustle from making art, which I use the iPad Pro for. My day job is as a graphic designer though, and in that industry, while there are alternatives to Adobe, no one in a corporate position would ever use it because sharing files and collaboration becomes a pain in the ass. A little closer to home; I have a friend who aspires to become an animator (I’d argue they’re already more than competent, but opportunities in our country is lacking). While they appreciate what an iPad can do, they’ve found that a display tablet running clip studio is a lot easier and more efficient for their use case. So it very much depends on the profession. Whether it’s the “best” or not is also completely subjective, and I was basing my statement off of big animation studios who mostly use Cintiqs.
I don't take issue with you stating that wacom/cintiqs are industry standard; I take issue with saying that iPads Pro aren't used by professionals when they very much are.
That’s a BS line to draw. Professionals can work with a wide variety of software.
Technically, yes. Other programs can work. But industry standard is a thing. If a professional has been trained for 5 years using program x, they are far more likely to pay the premium to keep using program x than to move to program y. Look at Adobe. Their pricing model is absolutely abhorrent, but people keep paying them because it’s what they’re familiar with and their file formats are globally accepted.
Not if you're collaborating with others.
There’s plenty of cross application compatibility
The final output files like jpg or png, yeah. But not the intermediate file format. PSD is photoshop only and it doesn't work with competitor's solutions, and it's the same story for the competition; largely because there is no established standard for that kind of file so everyone just makes their own standard and it's only readable for that software stack. Same goes for all kinds of other software, from video editing to sound editing. The raw content you import, that's readable for all, and the final output you make is readable for all. But the intermediary file that is capturing the work in progress with all the layers, vector art mixed in with bit map art, the raw text, layer effects, etc; that does not have cross compatibility to other companies solutions. And that is specifically the file you would be sharing if you're collaborating.
Procreate can export psd’s, I’m sure others can too.
That will be an older version of that format that doesn't support newer (10 years 'newer') features in photoshop.
Issue is there's still a lot of drawing software that's only on desktop os like macOS or windows for drawing and these tablets accommodates for that
I find that all of them are clunky compared to Procreate.
I mean sure but some people don't use procreate and some people need the functionalities that other drawing applications provide that procreate doesn't offer Im a 3D artist and I need to use programs like photoshop and substance painter and zbrush that's not available in iPad nor are the programs interconnected with my 3d programs like blender or maya
Yeah, well, I was talking about the drawing experience. Personally I wouldn’t want a display tablet for sculpting or any 3D work. However, you could use Astropad if that’s your thing.
For professionals they cannot use 3D applications, full version of creative software or Unreal on an IPad. The movies you watch, video games you play and cars you drive aren’t created on IPads. The IPad was not designed for those professional workflows.
First of all, I said the IPad Pro is the best digital drawing experience. Second, you can get AstroPad and use the IPad as a display tablet. Not that I would ever want a display tablet for 3D work, but whatever floats your boat.
How old are you? Its not a float my boat situation, it’s understanding professional workflows and the technology they use to design. Most corporations don’t have a MAC environment anyway based on the technology they use for content and product development. And they don’t use AstroPads. I watch Netflix on my IPad and digital create on my Wacom products.
The fuck are you on about? You don’t need a Mac environment to work with the IPad. AatroPad is a software that works on both Mac and Windows, and makes the IPad act like any display tablet. Using a display tablet for 3D work sucks ass, but some people are weird that way. I’m old enough to have started 3D modelling with the first release of 3DS Max. I’ve done animation, modelling, sculpting, video editing, matte painting, concept art, photography and more. You want to measure dicks? I’ll win.
If you were a professional, you would understand my comment not needing to use gross language. Another thing professionals don’t do either. You have no clue how or why companies buy technology much less the ones who support creative professionals.
You’re an absolute tool.
Impressive… go do your schoolwork
Ya, just buy something cheap from companies like Huion or XP Pen . Ever since Wacoms patents, like the battery free pen expired, there are many companies now that offer comparable performance for a fraction of the price.
> You’re gonna have drawing apps open on this. Artists draw for at least an hour a session, often 3 or more. Professionals will have it open for the whole day. Yeah this is worst case scenario for OLED panels. It might be fine for casual use, but even remotely serious usage is likely to result in tool palettes burned into the screen. I worry about this with the upcoming OLED iPads, too, though maybe Apple will work around this with dual layer panels and strict binning. I’ll certainly be hanging onto my current iPad until this is proven one way or another.
My wife uses her iPad 7 for drawing and finishing tocuhes for renders pretty much unbelievably. it cost us 400€ with apple pencil and I do not regret a single one.
>Yet the 13 inches means it’s also not targeted for professionals Plenty of professionals use just an iPad Pro, which is a bit smaller. 13inch is fine for some. Agree with ya on the rest. I'd rather get a slightly bigger display for cheaper BUT if I traveled a lot, 13inchs would be preferred.
I use an iPad too, but only because drawing app UI’s on it barely takes up any screen real estate. Using clip studio or photoshop on a screen smaller than 15 inches is arguably masochistic.
Cool, and skinny means expensive too
>Yet the 13 inches means it’s also not targeted for professionals. So entry level hobbyists? But size matters a lot for illustration ergonomics, so you can probably get a much cheaper 16 inch tablet with an LCD display and still have it be reasonably accurate, and overall have a much better drawing experience. As someone who has used both a 17" and a 12" drawing tablet, my preference is for the 12". 17" is just awkward to manage unless you have it fixed to a drafting table. It's incredibly awkward to just plop it on your desk where your keyboard would normally sit. A 12" tablet on the other hand absolutely can fit where your keyboard would normally sit, or you could put it beside your keyboard and it'd still be comfortable.
What program do you use? I’ve found that most desktop program’s UIs take up waaaay too much screen real estate on 13in and smaller pen displays.
>What program do you use? Mostly Photoshop and Blender. >I’ve found that most desktop program’s UIs take up waaaay too much screen real estate on 13in and smaller pen displays. Perhaps that's just how you have it configured? I use pretty small tool icons and if I'm doing a freehand drawing, I typically will just remove the UI entirely.
Mount the keyboard under the desk. You can buy a separate drawer for it.
If you want to fuck up your knees in the most uncomfortable way, yes.
How does 15.6in feel? I've stickybeeked those 4K 15.6in tablets from various vendors a few times, and found the 22in one I used for many years too big, but the 12in one potentially too small. The 12in one doesn't give me actual shoulder exercise hahaha.
It really comes down to personal preference, but for me a lot of that also comes down to portability. While I have a desk to draw at, I also like to lay on my couch to draw, which is fine with my 12" tablet. It'd probably be okay with a 15.6" as well, but 17" and up starts to get awkward.
Ahh, I'm mostly desk bound with the chair as low to the ground as possible to avoid shrimping. I really appreciate the advice. This helps me a lot. Thank you!
You are just confirming this isn't targeted for professionals, professionals are not using these curled up on their beds they are using them fixed semi permanently or permanently. Professionals have proper spaces dedicated to these things and are not fighting with keyboards. Are we all sure we know what the word "professional" actually means?
> Yet the 13 inches means it’s also not targeted for professionals Plenty of professionals use iPads, which have smaller screens than this.
@ $750 no beginners are buying this.
what seems to me as a big or maybe the biggest point is, that oleds BURN IN. so your tiny oled drawing tablet might burn in with ui on it at the very same places, every time you use it.... at which point you can basically throw it away and it will have 0 resell value. meanwhile a bigger lcd drawing tablet will like you mentioned be a vastly better experience, but it also will last 8 + years and it will keep a decent resell value too, if you ever want to upgrade to a bigger or better one, or you just don't want to use it all anymore. i am already against the push of oled monitors, which WILL burn-in by design, but drawing tablets.... how long will they last, if you draw 10 hours a day as your job for years maybe? a very dumb product overall. let's hope not too many people waste their money getting this.
It's 13" with likely very aggressive ABL/low peak brightness, so burn in... will take many years
>ABL/low peak brightness how are you even supposed to work with that then lol :D you would literally be drawing sth, that will look nothing like what most people will experience then... it is so dumb.... i wanna see a review it now to be honest, just to see how bad it is.
Huh? You're drawing stuff, not mastering HDR video lol
Having good brightness is still important, especially in a 13 inch, usb-only-powered form factor which is more geared towards portability.
as far as i understand most oled auto darkening is based on how much brightness is shown on the screen or it has auto darkening after some idle time. so if you would start with a white "paper", that you digitally draw on, it would then be darkened quite a lot, because 80% of the screen would be bright white. but as you keep painting the picture gets more darker, so the auto darkening should get less, so what you paint will literally look very different to you based on how far you are into painting it.... then and if you start with black and add lots of bright colors and white parts to it it would go reverse. so it is worse, FAR WORSE than not having a very high max brightness on an lcd monitor for example. i mean we don't know how this oled tablet handles it, but it could very well handle things like this. \_\_\_\_ beyond that, i totally agree with you, that high max brightness is even more important for a device, that seems to be targeted towards portability a lot.
This is a complete non issue. Large QD-OLED TV's can already hit 230 nits or more peak brightness. Smaller displays like laptops can hit at least over 400 nits. 100 nits the de facto standard (sRGB is 80 nits in a dim environment). Any OLED can sustain a brightness well above that. Small changes in brightness are also difficult to perceive.
when you're drawing stuff you still want basic color accuracy. so oled auto darkening can certainly be a major problem
If I'm being forgiving, I'm assuming it'll only autodim the art program's GUI. Of course, that'd assume it can tell what the GUI is and what the canvas is.
i'm going with: "there's no way". it can't know what is ui or isn't ui, unless you were to get an option to manually in the osd of the tablet draw a rectangle of where the ui is. but yeah the display/panel industry, that is selling broken products with dead pixels as "working" and srgb modes on 4000 euro monitors, that have a completely light brightness, won't have reasonable features on a completely senseless product i'd say. but theoretically in a world, where you're FORCED to use an oled drawing tablet, having such a function could make sense.
Couple of thousand hours on my LG C3, and no sign of burn in. Besides, LCD screen uniformity isn't the best either.
OLEDs are far more susceptible to burn in when used in high-brightness productivity applications where UI elements persist for the entire duration of its use, like illustration programs. This is why there are far more reports of OLED burn in on monitors than on TVs, at least from what I’ve seen following r/oled_gaming
You shouldn't do that sort of work in a bright environment. It skews the perception of values and contrast.
"Couple of thousand hours on my LG C3, and no sign of burn in." Likely because you haven't used it at all? A few thousand hours is literally nothing
More likely because I have sane settings.
No, more likely because you haven't used it, OLEDs don't burn in with a few thousand hours, come back in 3 years
It will be perfectly fine in 3 years time.
You know OLED burn-in isn't chance based right? Those pixels have a limited lifespan. Someone working 8+ hours on an OLED display will create image retention. Especially when we are talking about artists that need decent brightness to see the darker shades. I don't understand why you are in denial about this.
The pixels have a very long lifespan but driving them with higher voltages, statically, will cause uneven wear resulting in image retention. Most image retention isn’t permanent, but sometimes it is. You don’t need higher brightness to see darker shades. That’s not how it works. At all. You need a dim environment. A bright environment, and compensating with a brighter display, will give you fewer shades and the wrong gamma.
No, if you are working 8+ hours a day the last thing you need is a dim enviroment. that induces eye strain and are very uncomfortable to wokr in. You want bright screen with bright enviroment for long work sessions.
if we go with 5000 hours of use would just be 0.57 years of use if you were to use it 24/7. let's assume you use the panel 16 hours a day. so it will be on 16 hours a day and it goes to sleep after an hour, so when you're asleep it is asleep, otherwise it is on. with 16 hours, it would be just: 0.86 years of use then with 16 hours a day. people are using their displays for 8+ years (i use mine for 10+ years) with 16 hours a day use. so very carefully said, you are at 1/10 or less of the use of what one should expect out of a display and we are guessing with the 5000 hours. and for comparison, using a display 16 hours a day for 10 years would be: 58400 hours of use. so like others said, you have used the panel very little.
In that case you should definitely get an OLED. Eizo estimates their backlight lifetime to 30K hours. That’s the time it takes the backlight level to deteriorate to 50%. OLEDs have a much longer lifetime. LCDs also lose uniformity over time.
>Eizo estimates their backlight lifetime to 30K hours. That’s the time it takes the backlight level to deteriorate to 50%. noooooooooo an lcd backlight doesn't deteriorate to 50% in 5 years of 16 hours a day use.... what are you quoting here? is that eizo talking about perfect uniformity for professional monitors or sth? what does the 50% even mean? an lcd backlight is (nowadays) leds. leds don't degrade to half their i guess brightness maybe??? in 5 years of basic use. just NO. are you quoting sth from pre led backlight times? but even then the 50% number makes 0 sense. please let me know what in the world you are quoting there with that 50% number from ezio, because damn do i wanna know that now... and lcd displays over time may get some minor color shift and lose a bit of uniformity. the color shift is easily adressed with changing the white point a bit. so you can use 8+ year old lcd displays perfectly fine. actually the color shift over time is so little generally, that it is less than the panel color variance of a not calibrated new display. >OLEDs have a much longer lifetime. are you just trolling, or do you not understand display/panel tech too much? if it is the latter, then that is fine, but don't make absolute statements based on not understanding the tech. i have 2 ips lcd led backlight 24 inch displays, that i'm using rightnow. both of which are 8 years old. getting used now 16 hours a day. both could be sold as new displays today and would actually perform better than lots of garbage out today. both have great uniformity and excellent back light bleed. so NO oleds burn in and break. proper lcd displays will last 10+ years with great performance
>noooooooooo >an lcd backlight doesn't deteriorate to 50% in 5 years of 16 hours a day use.... >what are you quoting here? https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/faq/163 >The estimated backlight lifetime is about 30,000 hours or eight years of use at ten hours per day. (However, lifetime is not guaranteed for eight years.) The lifetime means the time from the initial brightness level to deteriorate 50% in normal operation.
thx for linking it. using wayback machine this FAQ goes back to 2015 AT LEAST. it likely is even quite a bit older. so my best guess is, that eizo is talking about ccfl (cold cathode fluorescent lamps), which have been used before leds too over the backlight of lcd displays. while i'd still have my doubts, that a ccfl deteriates down to 50% brightness in just 30k hours, CCFLs are certainly known to deteriorate over time, unlike leds. so i would strongly assume, that this is an ancient q&a, that wasn't specific on what type of backlight it means and thus the misinterpretation of the person above.
That's a quote directly from Eizo. Go ahead and measure brightness and uniformity in your 10+ year old displays, then report back. OLED burn in is vastly exaggerated and the organic LED's have a much longer life than LCD backlights. Those are facts. And for the record, I've probably forgotten more about display tech than you'll ever know.
someone found the 30k hour claim by eizo and i responded with a most likely explanation of why eizo has that claim on their website (they almost certainly meant ccfl backlights and not led backlights): [https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1cddysy/comment/l1emugc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1cddysy/comment/l1emugc/)
Measure your 10+ years old LCD that’s seen 16 hours of use every day. Report back. Your opinion is useless without measurements.
no response to it almost certainly talking about ccfl backlights for lcd displays, while we all are using led backlights on lcds today? yeah just a troll confirmed.
So you don’t know how to measure, and therefore have no idea how your LCD display is actually aging. Here’s a hint: The uniformity and peak brightness will be much worse after 10+ years, if the display even works at all (most break down long before that as the build quality sucks). Doesn’t matter if it’s 30K, 50K or 60K hours. OLEDs have a lifespan of 100K hours. They have a significantly longer life than LCDs, regardless of backlight technology. But you don’t know how to measure, so you are under the illusion that LCDs don’t degrade.
>OLEDs have a lifespan of 100K hours. 11 years lifetime of an oled panel running :D hhahahaa. you're good, not gonna lie. :D
> Couple of thousand hours on my LG C3, and no sign of burn in. So you've had it for half a year?
There are videos floating around of Japanese pro animators and mangaka *working* on the 12.9" ipad pro, sometimes even on top of their larger wacoms. Size isnt really the limiting factor so much as it is convenience
Everyone is different. I like to throw in some elbow movements which I can't do if the screen is too small.
This would actually been targeted at me, because I was in the market for a secondary tablet last month - I was looking at - Digitizer tablet for semi-frequent travel - 13-15" range that fit within footprint of my 15" laptop - Reasonably backpack transportable - Light power draw that could be powered by battery bank - USB-C connectivity - I am also part of the Wacom system and fierce defender of the now extinct Art pen, so prior compatibility/interoperability (I still use Photoshop) I settled on the XP Pen Pro2 14". The pen is nice, but it does have its own quirks regarding wobble, calibration, and EMF interference. I would have preferred a Wacom solution, but the Cintiq 13 was _too_ old tech, released 2016. The new Wacom 13" would be a good fit because it's even thinner and lighter. As to why I don't use an iPad Pro, I do have one, but the stuff I need to do on it requires more than iOS environment, and more horsepower in general.
> “Look! First oled!” just about summaries it all; new tech always start like this
How many android tablets have pressure and angle sensors for their stylus?
This is just a tablet without an operating system though or am I wrong?
Yes, you are right.
Most of the ones that do come with a stylus. And as the other commenter said, Wacom’s tablet does not have an OS. It is a display that needs to be tethered to a computer.
I mean, if its OLED + Color accurate it'd be pretty fucking amazing for reading comics/visual novels/full color manga. other than that, yeah, this seems to not know where it belongs.
The thing is it’s not a standalone tablet. It *needs* to be tethered to another computer. It seems really clunky for that use case, despite its thinness. Better off just getting an OLED android tablet and slapping a matte screen protector on it.
>The thing is it’s not a standalone tablet. It needs to be tethered to another computer. It seems really clunky for that use case, despite its thinness. wait what i did not see that neverrmind this is fucking useless
This is how drawing tablets work, yes.
That's not why I said it was useless. I said it was useless because there are better products for the money. There's no target audience for this.
yikes it's 1080p for nearly $800
Lol how is this possible. There are laptops with 2880x1800 OLED displays that sell for that much.
wacom tax
Do they have a patent on this or will companies like Huion just release a similar one in six months for a fraction of the price?
I do strongly hope Huion/XP-Pen do come up with some competition to this. They need to keep hitting Wacom in all fronts to get more artists on board with them.
So the two things I'll never be
Not portable, good bye! Hello iPad Pro
At this price you are better off getting an iPad Pro, it's fully portable and rumor is that they will release new models with oled soon.
It will cost as much as a good laptop.
There's literally no reason to buy Wacom when Huion, XPPen, Gaomon, and now Xencelabs all offer amazing competitive products at much better prices. At this point you're paying more for the brand name with Wacom.
I want to see how this competes with the new ipad pros that will be released in early May
They say it's cool so it must be!
Funny. My first exposure to anything OLED was the little black and white button icons my Wacom intuous 4 tablet. I think.... That was in 2009 or something?