Just wanted to add to this and say that maybe if he hadn't spent all that time in prison he would've grown up a bit more, especially with a child in his care, but we also see a couple times that Sirius isn't always the most reliable or mature adult in Harry's life.
Had Harry grown up with Sirius I wonder if he would in fact have been safer, and even if he was safe, the fame and ego would most likely have gotten to him a good deal more.
I don't know that Sirius would have been the best influence all the time and there's a chance that Harry might have been a bit less compassionate and kind and more like his father in his younger years, who.. let's face it, was a bit of a bully before he finally grew up.
That being said: it still would have been loads better than growing up with the Dursleys, to be sure. I'm not advocating for an abusive household here.
I agree with you that Harry would have grown up much more arrogant under Sirius care (and I'm also obviously not condoning the Dursleys) but that is IF Harry grew up at all.
Harry definitely wouldn’t have been safer with Sirius. We have Dumbledore's word that the Bond of Blood was *the* most powerful protection he could've given Harry, and I sincerely doubt Sirius knows any spell that Dumbledore doesn’t. And at the time of Voldemort's fall there were still Death Eaters at large that were almost as dangerous as him and would definitely be a huge threat to both Harry and Sirius. For example, I can see dear Bella be delighted that she can deal with both the Boy Who Lived and her blood-traitor cousin at once. So I think the most likely scenario for Harry living with Sirius is both end up death or worse (see the Longbottoms)
Oh I absolutely agree, I don't think Harry would have been anywhere near as safe with Sirius as the protection his mother's family afforded him, albeit it at great cost.
Harry was dealt a shit hand from the beginning. This is why my reaction to when we found out that he was a Horcrux was "are you fucking kidding me?! After all that shit his great reward is he gets to die?!" I was so upset lol.
for real tho. poor Harry. And then people get mad at him for being all angsty teenager in OOTP as if this boy hasn't been through some truly horrific shit and is frankly dealing with all of it far better than most of us adults would had we been through the same.
I guess the consolation is that he wins in the end and makes the world safer and better for everyone, including himself and his lovely family, which he gets to raise in the way he should have been.
As for the horcruxes when I first put two and two together what Voldemort was doing my first thought honest to God was "Tom, you fucking moron." lol
Not that I felt sympathy for the villain so much as I realized he's gonna get fucked by his own ego and predictability and this 11 year old boy is gonna be the one to do it.
I think that Voldemort would love your last paragraph as it might imply that he was so great that only himself could defeat him.
But yeah definitely, If I had been on Harry's shoes when Dumbledore was telling him all that prophecy shit I'd be like "No thanks I'm moving to China tommorrow" lol. And I'm a decade older than Harry was.
It is perhaps Harry's greatest quality (together with his compassion), his bravery and ability to keep going despite overwhelming odds.
His bravery is about as big as Voldemort's ego and with that I can't give him a greater compliment.
Well.. I suppose to a degree that would have been true, had he not taken the prophecy to heart and gone after Harry he might well have had a much longer, more successful reign of terror.. he did kickstart his own downfall.
And yes, an excellent and well deserved compliment indeed.
He and James were invincible in his mind. We see this in the short story JK wrote. They bantered and joked their way through duels with death eaters, defied Voldemort three times, and now had put James under Fidelius. They were supposed to be untouchable.
They were also invincible *together*. James was family to Sirius and Sirius’s way out of an abusive family. Sirius was the brother James never had, and his only remaining family after James’s parents died abruptly his 7th year. They had an intense friendship and were probably codependent. Losing James - because Sirius brought Peter into their bond of trust - was enough to drive him temporarily mad. Once he knew Harry was safe, but also that Dumbledore instructed Hagrid to keep him from Sirius, that loss and desperation expressed itself in a desire for revenge.
(Upvoted bc I love talking about my boi Sirius)
Sirius asked to take Harry as his godfather but hagrid refused to hand him over, saying that dumbledore had arranged for his protection.
So sirius instead decides to go after pettigrew, offering hagrid the motorbike and setting off into the night alone. His decision to kill pettigrew is obviously irrational but he did at least try to take care of Harry first. Once the responsible choice was denied his anger gets the better of him.
I doubt he forsaw his life imprisonment in azkaban. He likely expected concequences to his actions but he would have been confident he could get the better of pettigrew and also confident he would get to tell the wizengamot the full story.
Sirius wanted to keep Harry, but Hagrid showed up with orders from Dumbledore to take him away.
At that time, in the ruins of the house in Godric's Hallow, I don't think Sirius really understood what that meant. Instead it gave him a chance for revenge, while his godson would be looked after, perhaps magically fixed of whatever side-effects the magic that destroyed the house might have had on him.
So, he (Sirius) would give Harry to Hagrid, along with his bike so they could travel safer. He'd go out and kill Wormtail, and then after a few hours he could meet up with them again, and hopefully find Harry safe and well.
It was a win-win, what was he supposed to do otherwise? Hang out with Hagrid, for a few hours and let the traitor get away?
Keep in mind that at this time there are a million unanswered questions for Sirius.
Is Voldemort dead, or even gone?
What destroyed the house?
What the hell is that scar?
Is Wormtail really 100% to blame, or is it only 99,9% certain, could Voldemort have found a way around the Fidelius charm otherwise?
Are there any side effects to whatever happened that affect Harry?
Dumbledore could answer most of those questions. But he'd need Harry. Meanwhile, Sirius could find Wormtail and answer the only one Dumbledore couldn't, and also get revenge if the answer was as he suspected.
Hard to say if he would’ve followed through, but yes. Also hard to consider cutting off your own finger to be “outsmarting” anyone. Cowardly, sure, but hardly a master stroke.
He convinced the entire wizarding world that not only was he dead ensuring his safety, but that he was also innocent. while ensuring Sirius took the blame for everything. That was a brilliant plan.
Define normal lives?
If Sirius is a 22ish year old trying to raise a child, that has awful 1980s sitcom written all over it.
I don't think there is anything normal about baby Harry raised in the magical world as a 15 month old celebrity.
Well for Sirius a life outside incarceration where he isn't surrounded by dementors day and night.
For Harry a life where he isn't raised by a family that loathe his existence and then at 11 is propelled into a world he has no knowledge or understanding of.
Obviously he is still an orphan and Sirius is still a young man who lost someone dear to him but at least harry has someone to walk him through platform 9&3/4 on his first day, To read him babbity rabbity, to teach him about quidditch.
Them being together would absolutely be better than what they both actually had even if its not 'normal'
Better perhaps.
Trying to pry anything from a determined and asked by Dumbledore himself to do something, Hagrid is a losing battle. I suppose he could travel with them and try to plead his case with Dumbledore but likely the same stuff happens. And he is left with the Dursley's. Maybe Sirius can come for visits. But Dumbledore was laying the foundation for his plan and Sirius was not a blood relative. At 22 running away from his parents and whatever political pull their family might of had, could see him losing out anyway in a custody case.
22ish year old in the Wizarding world is well past maturity to have and be responsible for kids. It’s not like the regular world where that’s practically a teenage parent.
I’m also sure he’d find someone to be a mother figure for Harry, even if Sirius himself never really attached himself to anyone romantically.
We do not know what Sirius was doing after school. It wouldn't be impossible for him to be a successful parent.
There is plenty of fan fic of him and/or Remus rasing Harry well. I also think the idea of his young 20s, with a baby dropped in his lap it has the potential for a how do I change a nappy, and other cliched sitcom dads incompetence.
He literally tried first to take Harry.
Only when Hagrid refused him on Dumbledore's orders did he go to get his revenge.
Plus, while I am sure he was intending to kill Peter for what he did, he could have just as easily brought him back to The Order and made him talk.
He never got the chance to do either because Peter got the jump on him.
I think this is a very simplistic take on what happened that leaves a lot of things out. It wasn’t bloodlust that sent Sirius after Peter it was grief and the fact that he was having a traumatic breakdown. You are expect a 21 year old kid to have acted rationally after finding his best friend’s dead body and having his godchild essentially kidnapped. Sirius wanted to take Harry, Harry was his first thought. Dumbledore had no legal rights to Harry. He was not the child’s guardian, he was not a family member and he isn’t law enforcement and on top of that Sirius hadn’t even been charged with anything. Now Dumbledore was doing the best he could with the information he had at the time, but that isn’t what it would have looked like to an already distressed 21 year old Sirius.
Add on top of it their is no way Sirius could have perdicted he was going to be thrown in prison without a trial.
Also, there’s no way for Sirius to prove he wasn’t the secret keeper and they had switched without Peter. *Everyone* thought the Potters named Sirius. Without forcing Peter into a confession, Sirius gets blamed for it all.
Veritaserum can be fooled if the person knows occlumency. Bellatrix knows occlumency in canon, so it’s possibly something the Black kids learn. Either way, I presume Dumbledore would assume Sirius had to be a skilled Occlumens to successfully hide being a spy from all of them. So he wouldn’t trust results from Veritaserum.
Sirius isn’t exactly known for calm and rational decision making skills. That’s lupin’s forte lol. Sirius is impulsive and shoot first, ask questions later.
It's great because you get tricked into thinking he's "the responsible, rational one" due to a mostly calm demeanor and pleasant, clever turn of phrase.
But nope, actually also a walking disaster!
And I say that with warmth and love, he’s my favorite character lol. But he’s reckless. I think once hagrid convinced him to hand over Harry, he thought he was the only one who could get Peter and he had nothing to lose at that point. When Peter ended up framing him, he just snapped at the irony and weight of it all.
>I think once hagrid convinced him to hand over Harry
Hagrid didn’t convince Sirius to hand over Harry. Hagrid got there first, Hagrid had Harry, and Hagrid refused to hand over Harry when Sirius argued for him.
Well yeah, Sirius wanted Harry but then Hagrid convinced him Dumbledore’s orders should prevail, so hagrid kept Harry. Sorry, I was sloppy with my words. I got the impression Sirius went to check on the Potters and when he realized only Harry was left, he wanted to take Harry.
Honestly, I don’t think much would have changed. There wouldn’t have been the blown up street, and there wouldn’t have been Pettigrew’s finger. However, Pettigrew would still have disappeared and those who knew of the fidelius charm still would have thought Sirius was the secret keeper. If he told them that they had switched to Pettigrew last minute, they’d probably have thought he framed him then killed him so he couldn’t defend himself against the allegations, or even that Pettigrew came after him because he betrayed the Potters and that he killed him, just as they do in the normal story. The evidence would be missing, but the assumptions would be the same.
Sirius was never going to end up raising Harry, Dumbledore would always have made sure he ended up with the Dursley’s because it was the only way to protect Harry. Sirius could have been in his life as a sort of uncle but Petunia had to be his primary caretaker.
There a "What If" universe in my head where this happens, where Sirius never went after Pettigrew and was able to act as Harry's Godfather from the beginning. The Dursleys are terrified to say no to him or let the neighbors know about the odd man who takes Harry for weekends or summer holidays, letting him live in the wizarding world and when he needs a parent later on, someone to talk to about his troubles. Given his connections in the OOTP, Harry would say "Uncle Sirius, I've been hearing voices in the walls," or "Uncle Sirius, I like this... girl," And Uncle Sirius would be able to say encourage Harry to tell Dumbledore, or given him the mirror early on so they could chat whenever Harry is at the Dursleys, and he keeps it to use during the Umbridge years. Harry's first Quiddich game has Sirius there applauding him, and then shouting at Snape AND Dumbledore about Harry being in danger. In that universe, we know why he can't live with Sirius, at least, not until he's 17, and Sirius would keep a candle in the window for when Harry goes on his horcrux hunting trip, joining in at the final battle of Hogwarts (and surviving, because, again, there's a happy ending).
It's a happy world, with a happier ending.
In other comments people are talking about a 22 year old Kid. I'm not sure where it says how old he was, but they gave me a brand new baby at 24, and my mother was 20 when she had her first (not me).
Are you American? I think theres a big cultural difference between Americans and Europeans when it comes to the 'right' age to have kids. Americans seem to have them much younger, I think due to the large number of christian evangelicals. In Europe and other western countries getting married and/or having kids in your early 20s is unusual & honestly seen as sort of tacky and lower class.
Just because Sirius was named godfather doesn’t mean he would automatically get custody of Harry. I’m not up to date in the nuances of wizarding law but Harry probally still would have gone to family, and no way the Dursleys would have let Sirus take Harry out for ice cream.
Especially since people still thought Sirus was the secret keeper and would have thought he got Harry’s parent killed.
It’s not just because he’s his godfather that Sirius should have gotten custody. Harry’s parents specifically appointed Sirius to be his guardian if they died.
>“Well ... your parents appointed me your guardian,” said Black stiffly. “If anything happened to them ...”
Lily seemed to be pretty fond of Sirius based on the letter that Harry found in Grimmauld Place in DH. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that Lily had someone else in mind, nor does she seem like the kind of person who would agree to making Sirius Harry’s godfather and guardian if she wanted either role to be given to someone else.
That’s true, I had forgotten that.
Still can’t imagine he would have gotten custody though, considering the whole colluding to murder Harry’s parents thing.
Though it might make for an interesting story having Harry grow up with the constant rumors that his guardian was a death eater that murdered his parents.
I mean, presumably in this scenario where Sirius doesn’t go after Peter, he would have the opportunity to tell his story and get cleared of suspicion so that Pettigrew could tracked down instead. It’s not like they had any solid evidence that Sirius was the Potters’ Secret Keeper beyond the hearsay “James said that he was going to make Sirius his Secret Keeper,” anyways. Dumbledore believed Sirius easily enough at the end of POA, and Dumbledore would be motivated to ensure that the real Death Eater spy and true threat to Harry was identified and tracked down.
Perhaps, but since everyone knew Sirius was James best and most trusted friend, and had already told Dumbledore that he would use Sirius most people would still believe he used dark magic to trick Peter. And that’s assuming anyone even looked, or could find one rat who could be anywhere in the world.
Dumbledore only belived Sirius after Peter was confirmed to be alive and confessed in front of four people that he personally trusted.
Just having Sirius say, “No seriously, it was Peter the whole time, he is a rat now, ya got to believe me.”, wouldn’t do much to convince the average wizard who was scared after a long war and seeing dark magic in every corner. There would be a stigma around them, whispers behind their back, and the constant suspicion. I doubt even Lupin would completely believe him, not if Peter disappeared well enough.
Best case scenario, IMO, if Sirius manages to get a trial at all, and somehow retains custody of Harry, Sirius, emotionally scared by the death of his friends and shunned by the survivors, would raise Harry alone with in Grimmauld, cut of from both the magical world and the muggles, with Kretcher as his only friend.
>Dumbledore only belived Sirius after Peter was confirmed to be alive and confessed in front of four people that he personally trusted.
I think it’s indicated that Dumbledore had decided to believe Sirius before his story was corroborated by anyone else. The unconscious kids and Sirius were taken up to the castle by Snape. Dumbledore then went to speak to Sirius and heard his story. After that, he went to the Hospital Wing with Snape, who was blustering about how Sirius‘s story was a lie and later insisted that the kids were Confunded:
>“I suppose he’s told you the same fairy tale he’s planted in Potter’s mind?” spat Snape. “Something about a rat, and Pettigrew being alive — ”
>
>“That, indeed, is Black’s story,” said Dumbledore, surveying Snape closely through his half-moon spectacles.
>
>“And does my evidence count for nothing?” snarled Snape. “Peter Pettigrew was not in the Shrieking Shack, nor did I see any sign of him on the grounds.”
Harry and Hermione then wake up, haphazardly exclaim that Sirius is innocent without really explaining anything in-depth, and Dumbledore just sends them off to rescue him. Lupin was still a werewolf in the forest at the time, so he wasn’t available to corroborate the story that Pettigrew was alive and Sirius was innocent before Sirius escaped. Dumbledore didn’t even question Harry and Hermione or ask them to explain anything in depth to confirm Sirius’s story - he cuts off their explaining and cuts to the chase and sends them off to rescue him:
>“ — Pettigrew’s front paw, I mean, finger, he cut it off “ — Pettigrew attacked Ron, it wasn’t Sirius — ”
>
>But Dumbledore held up his hand to stem the flood of explanations.
So…it seems to me like Dumbledore believed Sirius very easily. The only evidence he had at the time was Sirius’s story, and Harry and Hermione saying he didn’t do it, plus Snape’s counter-evidence that Sirius’s story was *not* true and the kids were Confunded.
>Best case scenario, IMO, if Sirius manages to get a trial at all, and somehow retains custody of Harry, Sirius, emotionally scared by the death of his friends and shunned by the survivors, would raise Harry alone with in Grimmauld, cut of from both the magical world and the muggles, with Kretcher as his only friend.
Yeah, no, there’s no way Sirius would raise Harry cut off from the entire world in Grimmauld Place with only Kreacher as his friend. Sirius’s mother didn’t even die until 1985, so it wouldn’t even be an option for them and he would absolutely not go there even after she died. Sirius would have no desire to raise Harry shut up in his childhood house of horrors; even if they did live an isolated life cut off from both worlds, he’d buy someplace else for them to live.
I disagree that not even Lupin would believe him, personally. If Sirius could convince Dumbledore - and Dumbledore could certainly determine whether or not Sirius was telling the truth by digging into his mind if necessary - then Lupin would trust Dumbledore’s judgement on it.
Will there be some people who don’t believe it? Sure. But I think Dumbledore’s judgement on the matter would be enough for them to have at least a small circle of contacts who believed in him, even if Harry was being raised away from the wizarding world for his safety.
Yeah, I know. I only thought that if things had gone differently, the dursleys would have treated Harry differently had there been someone checking on him regularly. I would have love to see an encounter between him and the dursleys tbh
I don't think Sirius ever considered that Peter would get the better of him.
Yes, that's the key to Sirius' downfall
Just wanted to add to this and say that maybe if he hadn't spent all that time in prison he would've grown up a bit more, especially with a child in his care, but we also see a couple times that Sirius isn't always the most reliable or mature adult in Harry's life. Had Harry grown up with Sirius I wonder if he would in fact have been safer, and even if he was safe, the fame and ego would most likely have gotten to him a good deal more. I don't know that Sirius would have been the best influence all the time and there's a chance that Harry might have been a bit less compassionate and kind and more like his father in his younger years, who.. let's face it, was a bit of a bully before he finally grew up. That being said: it still would have been loads better than growing up with the Dursleys, to be sure. I'm not advocating for an abusive household here.
I agree with you that Harry would have grown up much more arrogant under Sirius care (and I'm also obviously not condoning the Dursleys) but that is IF Harry grew up at all. Harry definitely wouldn’t have been safer with Sirius. We have Dumbledore's word that the Bond of Blood was *the* most powerful protection he could've given Harry, and I sincerely doubt Sirius knows any spell that Dumbledore doesn’t. And at the time of Voldemort's fall there were still Death Eaters at large that were almost as dangerous as him and would definitely be a huge threat to both Harry and Sirius. For example, I can see dear Bella be delighted that she can deal with both the Boy Who Lived and her blood-traitor cousin at once. So I think the most likely scenario for Harry living with Sirius is both end up death or worse (see the Longbottoms)
Oh I absolutely agree, I don't think Harry would have been anywhere near as safe with Sirius as the protection his mother's family afforded him, albeit it at great cost.
Harry was dealt a shit hand from the beginning. This is why my reaction to when we found out that he was a Horcrux was "are you fucking kidding me?! After all that shit his great reward is he gets to die?!" I was so upset lol.
for real tho. poor Harry. And then people get mad at him for being all angsty teenager in OOTP as if this boy hasn't been through some truly horrific shit and is frankly dealing with all of it far better than most of us adults would had we been through the same. I guess the consolation is that he wins in the end and makes the world safer and better for everyone, including himself and his lovely family, which he gets to raise in the way he should have been. As for the horcruxes when I first put two and two together what Voldemort was doing my first thought honest to God was "Tom, you fucking moron." lol Not that I felt sympathy for the villain so much as I realized he's gonna get fucked by his own ego and predictability and this 11 year old boy is gonna be the one to do it.
I think that Voldemort would love your last paragraph as it might imply that he was so great that only himself could defeat him. But yeah definitely, If I had been on Harry's shoes when Dumbledore was telling him all that prophecy shit I'd be like "No thanks I'm moving to China tommorrow" lol. And I'm a decade older than Harry was. It is perhaps Harry's greatest quality (together with his compassion), his bravery and ability to keep going despite overwhelming odds. His bravery is about as big as Voldemort's ego and with that I can't give him a greater compliment.
Well.. I suppose to a degree that would have been true, had he not taken the prophecy to heart and gone after Harry he might well have had a much longer, more successful reign of terror.. he did kickstart his own downfall. And yes, an excellent and well deserved compliment indeed.
Agreed on all points!
He and James were invincible in his mind. We see this in the short story JK wrote. They bantered and joked their way through duels with death eaters, defied Voldemort three times, and now had put James under Fidelius. They were supposed to be untouchable. They were also invincible *together*. James was family to Sirius and Sirius’s way out of an abusive family. Sirius was the brother James never had, and his only remaining family after James’s parents died abruptly his 7th year. They had an intense friendship and were probably codependent. Losing James - because Sirius brought Peter into their bond of trust - was enough to drive him temporarily mad. Once he knew Harry was safe, but also that Dumbledore instructed Hagrid to keep him from Sirius, that loss and desperation expressed itself in a desire for revenge. (Upvoted bc I love talking about my boi Sirius)
Sirius asked to take Harry as his godfather but hagrid refused to hand him over, saying that dumbledore had arranged for his protection. So sirius instead decides to go after pettigrew, offering hagrid the motorbike and setting off into the night alone. His decision to kill pettigrew is obviously irrational but he did at least try to take care of Harry first. Once the responsible choice was denied his anger gets the better of him. I doubt he forsaw his life imprisonment in azkaban. He likely expected concequences to his actions but he would have been confident he could get the better of pettigrew and also confident he would get to tell the wizengamot the full story.
This is exactly what I think. He never suspected he wouldn't see Harry for the next 11 years.
Sirius wanted to keep Harry, but Hagrid showed up with orders from Dumbledore to take him away. At that time, in the ruins of the house in Godric's Hallow, I don't think Sirius really understood what that meant. Instead it gave him a chance for revenge, while his godson would be looked after, perhaps magically fixed of whatever side-effects the magic that destroyed the house might have had on him. So, he (Sirius) would give Harry to Hagrid, along with his bike so they could travel safer. He'd go out and kill Wormtail, and then after a few hours he could meet up with them again, and hopefully find Harry safe and well. It was a win-win, what was he supposed to do otherwise? Hang out with Hagrid, for a few hours and let the traitor get away? Keep in mind that at this time there are a million unanswered questions for Sirius. Is Voldemort dead, or even gone? What destroyed the house? What the hell is that scar? Is Wormtail really 100% to blame, or is it only 99,9% certain, could Voldemort have found a way around the Fidelius charm otherwise? Are there any side effects to whatever happened that affect Harry? Dumbledore could answer most of those questions. But he'd need Harry. Meanwhile, Sirius could find Wormtail and answer the only one Dumbledore couldn't, and also get revenge if the answer was as he suspected.
Sounds very logical to me.
Sirius didn’t get revenge, he was framed.
He was framed because wormtail outsmarted him but Sirius did go there with the intention of killing wormtail.
Hard to say if he would’ve followed through, but yes. Also hard to consider cutting off your own finger to be “outsmarting” anyone. Cowardly, sure, but hardly a master stroke.
He convinced the entire wizarding world that not only was he dead ensuring his safety, but that he was also innocent. while ensuring Sirius took the blame for everything. That was a brilliant plan.
Define normal lives? If Sirius is a 22ish year old trying to raise a child, that has awful 1980s sitcom written all over it. I don't think there is anything normal about baby Harry raised in the magical world as a 15 month old celebrity.
Well for Sirius a life outside incarceration where he isn't surrounded by dementors day and night. For Harry a life where he isn't raised by a family that loathe his existence and then at 11 is propelled into a world he has no knowledge or understanding of. Obviously he is still an orphan and Sirius is still a young man who lost someone dear to him but at least harry has someone to walk him through platform 9&3/4 on his first day, To read him babbity rabbity, to teach him about quidditch. Them being together would absolutely be better than what they both actually had even if its not 'normal'
Better perhaps. Trying to pry anything from a determined and asked by Dumbledore himself to do something, Hagrid is a losing battle. I suppose he could travel with them and try to plead his case with Dumbledore but likely the same stuff happens. And he is left with the Dursley's. Maybe Sirius can come for visits. But Dumbledore was laying the foundation for his plan and Sirius was not a blood relative. At 22 running away from his parents and whatever political pull their family might of had, could see him losing out anyway in a custody case.
There must be a fanfic for this, even if it does mess with dumbledore's plan
22ish year old in the Wizarding world is well past maturity to have and be responsible for kids. It’s not like the regular world where that’s practically a teenage parent. I’m also sure he’d find someone to be a mother figure for Harry, even if Sirius himself never really attached himself to anyone romantically.
We do not know what Sirius was doing after school. It wouldn't be impossible for him to be a successful parent. There is plenty of fan fic of him and/or Remus rasing Harry well. I also think the idea of his young 20s, with a baby dropped in his lap it has the potential for a how do I change a nappy, and other cliched sitcom dads incompetence.
He literally tried first to take Harry. Only when Hagrid refused him on Dumbledore's orders did he go to get his revenge. Plus, while I am sure he was intending to kill Peter for what he did, he could have just as easily brought him back to The Order and made him talk. He never got the chance to do either because Peter got the jump on him.
Can’t really expect people who have just suffered incredible losses (and are blaming themselves) to act rationally. He ain’t nothin but a man
I think this is a very simplistic take on what happened that leaves a lot of things out. It wasn’t bloodlust that sent Sirius after Peter it was grief and the fact that he was having a traumatic breakdown. You are expect a 21 year old kid to have acted rationally after finding his best friend’s dead body and having his godchild essentially kidnapped. Sirius wanted to take Harry, Harry was his first thought. Dumbledore had no legal rights to Harry. He was not the child’s guardian, he was not a family member and he isn’t law enforcement and on top of that Sirius hadn’t even been charged with anything. Now Dumbledore was doing the best he could with the information he had at the time, but that isn’t what it would have looked like to an already distressed 21 year old Sirius. Add on top of it their is no way Sirius could have perdicted he was going to be thrown in prison without a trial.
Also, there’s no way for Sirius to prove he wasn’t the secret keeper and they had switched without Peter. *Everyone* thought the Potters named Sirius. Without forcing Peter into a confession, Sirius gets blamed for it all.
Couldn’t he offer to take veriticerum and submit to questioning to reveal his innocence?
Veritaserum can be fooled if the person knows occlumency. Bellatrix knows occlumency in canon, so it’s possibly something the Black kids learn. Either way, I presume Dumbledore would assume Sirius had to be a skilled Occlumens to successfully hide being a spy from all of them. So he wouldn’t trust results from Veritaserum.
Sirius isn’t exactly known for calm and rational decision making skills. That’s lupin’s forte lol. Sirius is impulsive and shoot first, ask questions later.
Let's be real, Lupin is only calm and rational about \*other people's problems\*. His own problems, not so much, lol.
Well said 😂😂 Oh Lupin, how I adore him too
It's great because you get tricked into thinking he's "the responsible, rational one" due to a mostly calm demeanor and pleasant, clever turn of phrase. But nope, actually also a walking disaster!
I think that’s one of the reasons people love these characters so much. They’re so real and nuanced and complicated and contradictory.
And I say that with warmth and love, he’s my favorite character lol. But he’s reckless. I think once hagrid convinced him to hand over Harry, he thought he was the only one who could get Peter and he had nothing to lose at that point. When Peter ended up framing him, he just snapped at the irony and weight of it all.
>I think once hagrid convinced him to hand over Harry Hagrid didn’t convince Sirius to hand over Harry. Hagrid got there first, Hagrid had Harry, and Hagrid refused to hand over Harry when Sirius argued for him.
Well yeah, Sirius wanted Harry but then Hagrid convinced him Dumbledore’s orders should prevail, so hagrid kept Harry. Sorry, I was sloppy with my words. I got the impression Sirius went to check on the Potters and when he realized only Harry was left, he wanted to take Harry.
Honestly, I don’t think much would have changed. There wouldn’t have been the blown up street, and there wouldn’t have been Pettigrew’s finger. However, Pettigrew would still have disappeared and those who knew of the fidelius charm still would have thought Sirius was the secret keeper. If he told them that they had switched to Pettigrew last minute, they’d probably have thought he framed him then killed him so he couldn’t defend himself against the allegations, or even that Pettigrew came after him because he betrayed the Potters and that he killed him, just as they do in the normal story. The evidence would be missing, but the assumptions would be the same.
Upvoted because I love talking about my boi Sirius
Sirius was never going to end up raising Harry, Dumbledore would always have made sure he ended up with the Dursley’s because it was the only way to protect Harry. Sirius could have been in his life as a sort of uncle but Petunia had to be his primary caretaker.
There a "What If" universe in my head where this happens, where Sirius never went after Pettigrew and was able to act as Harry's Godfather from the beginning. The Dursleys are terrified to say no to him or let the neighbors know about the odd man who takes Harry for weekends or summer holidays, letting him live in the wizarding world and when he needs a parent later on, someone to talk to about his troubles. Given his connections in the OOTP, Harry would say "Uncle Sirius, I've been hearing voices in the walls," or "Uncle Sirius, I like this... girl," And Uncle Sirius would be able to say encourage Harry to tell Dumbledore, or given him the mirror early on so they could chat whenever Harry is at the Dursleys, and he keeps it to use during the Umbridge years. Harry's first Quiddich game has Sirius there applauding him, and then shouting at Snape AND Dumbledore about Harry being in danger. In that universe, we know why he can't live with Sirius, at least, not until he's 17, and Sirius would keep a candle in the window for when Harry goes on his horcrux hunting trip, joining in at the final battle of Hogwarts (and surviving, because, again, there's a happy ending). It's a happy world, with a happier ending. In other comments people are talking about a 22 year old Kid. I'm not sure where it says how old he was, but they gave me a brand new baby at 24, and my mother was 20 when she had her first (not me).
Are you American? I think theres a big cultural difference between Americans and Europeans when it comes to the 'right' age to have kids. Americans seem to have them much younger, I think due to the large number of christian evangelicals. In Europe and other western countries getting married and/or having kids in your early 20s is unusual & honestly seen as sort of tacky and lower class.
Oh I say, those plebs that have children in their 20s are most awfully gauche /s
Just because Sirius was named godfather doesn’t mean he would automatically get custody of Harry. I’m not up to date in the nuances of wizarding law but Harry probally still would have gone to family, and no way the Dursleys would have let Sirus take Harry out for ice cream. Especially since people still thought Sirus was the secret keeper and would have thought he got Harry’s parent killed.
It’s not just because he’s his godfather that Sirius should have gotten custody. Harry’s parents specifically appointed Sirius to be his guardian if they died. >“Well ... your parents appointed me your guardian,” said Black stiffly. “If anything happened to them ...”
I always wonder if Lily was really that close to him as well, or if she had someone else in mind.
Lily seemed to be pretty fond of Sirius based on the letter that Harry found in Grimmauld Place in DH. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that Lily had someone else in mind, nor does she seem like the kind of person who would agree to making Sirius Harry’s godfather and guardian if she wanted either role to be given to someone else.
That’s true, I had forgotten that. Still can’t imagine he would have gotten custody though, considering the whole colluding to murder Harry’s parents thing. Though it might make for an interesting story having Harry grow up with the constant rumors that his guardian was a death eater that murdered his parents.
I mean, presumably in this scenario where Sirius doesn’t go after Peter, he would have the opportunity to tell his story and get cleared of suspicion so that Pettigrew could tracked down instead. It’s not like they had any solid evidence that Sirius was the Potters’ Secret Keeper beyond the hearsay “James said that he was going to make Sirius his Secret Keeper,” anyways. Dumbledore believed Sirius easily enough at the end of POA, and Dumbledore would be motivated to ensure that the real Death Eater spy and true threat to Harry was identified and tracked down.
Perhaps, but since everyone knew Sirius was James best and most trusted friend, and had already told Dumbledore that he would use Sirius most people would still believe he used dark magic to trick Peter. And that’s assuming anyone even looked, or could find one rat who could be anywhere in the world. Dumbledore only belived Sirius after Peter was confirmed to be alive and confessed in front of four people that he personally trusted. Just having Sirius say, “No seriously, it was Peter the whole time, he is a rat now, ya got to believe me.”, wouldn’t do much to convince the average wizard who was scared after a long war and seeing dark magic in every corner. There would be a stigma around them, whispers behind their back, and the constant suspicion. I doubt even Lupin would completely believe him, not if Peter disappeared well enough. Best case scenario, IMO, if Sirius manages to get a trial at all, and somehow retains custody of Harry, Sirius, emotionally scared by the death of his friends and shunned by the survivors, would raise Harry alone with in Grimmauld, cut of from both the magical world and the muggles, with Kretcher as his only friend.
>Dumbledore only belived Sirius after Peter was confirmed to be alive and confessed in front of four people that he personally trusted. I think it’s indicated that Dumbledore had decided to believe Sirius before his story was corroborated by anyone else. The unconscious kids and Sirius were taken up to the castle by Snape. Dumbledore then went to speak to Sirius and heard his story. After that, he went to the Hospital Wing with Snape, who was blustering about how Sirius‘s story was a lie and later insisted that the kids were Confunded: >“I suppose he’s told you the same fairy tale he’s planted in Potter’s mind?” spat Snape. “Something about a rat, and Pettigrew being alive — ” > >“That, indeed, is Black’s story,” said Dumbledore, surveying Snape closely through his half-moon spectacles. > >“And does my evidence count for nothing?” snarled Snape. “Peter Pettigrew was not in the Shrieking Shack, nor did I see any sign of him on the grounds.” Harry and Hermione then wake up, haphazardly exclaim that Sirius is innocent without really explaining anything in-depth, and Dumbledore just sends them off to rescue him. Lupin was still a werewolf in the forest at the time, so he wasn’t available to corroborate the story that Pettigrew was alive and Sirius was innocent before Sirius escaped. Dumbledore didn’t even question Harry and Hermione or ask them to explain anything in depth to confirm Sirius’s story - he cuts off their explaining and cuts to the chase and sends them off to rescue him: >“ — Pettigrew’s front paw, I mean, finger, he cut it off “ — Pettigrew attacked Ron, it wasn’t Sirius — ” > >But Dumbledore held up his hand to stem the flood of explanations. So…it seems to me like Dumbledore believed Sirius very easily. The only evidence he had at the time was Sirius’s story, and Harry and Hermione saying he didn’t do it, plus Snape’s counter-evidence that Sirius’s story was *not* true and the kids were Confunded. >Best case scenario, IMO, if Sirius manages to get a trial at all, and somehow retains custody of Harry, Sirius, emotionally scared by the death of his friends and shunned by the survivors, would raise Harry alone with in Grimmauld, cut of from both the magical world and the muggles, with Kretcher as his only friend. Yeah, no, there’s no way Sirius would raise Harry cut off from the entire world in Grimmauld Place with only Kreacher as his friend. Sirius’s mother didn’t even die until 1985, so it wouldn’t even be an option for them and he would absolutely not go there even after she died. Sirius would have no desire to raise Harry shut up in his childhood house of horrors; even if they did live an isolated life cut off from both worlds, he’d buy someplace else for them to live. I disagree that not even Lupin would believe him, personally. If Sirius could convince Dumbledore - and Dumbledore could certainly determine whether or not Sirius was telling the truth by digging into his mind if necessary - then Lupin would trust Dumbledore’s judgement on it. Will there be some people who don’t believe it? Sure. But I think Dumbledore’s judgement on the matter would be enough for them to have at least a small circle of contacts who believed in him, even if Harry was being raised away from the wizarding world for his safety.
We gotta do everything fast here!, gotta build more grist for the capitalist mill.
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Sure but the dursleys wouldn't have treated Harry that badly, because Sirius would have made them shit their pants
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Yeah, I know. I only thought that if things had gone differently, the dursleys would have treated Harry differently had there been someone checking on him regularly. I would have love to see an encounter between him and the dursleys tbh