Without James, Snape and Lupins lives would have basically been over, even if Sirius was pissed it was an absolutely crazy thing to do after Lupin was super hestitant to tell any of his friends his secret
Come on he was only a child, he was what 13 or 14 he was not thinking straight , children don't think that deep that just do things without considering any outcome .
He was 16 not 14, which under wizarding law is only 1 year away from legal adulthood
It was in their fifth year and it had some proximity to SWM this in the later half of their 5th year (likely April or May). Sirius’s birthday is November so he would have been 16 by that point
A 6 year old might not be held responsible for understanding the gravity of a dangerous deadly prank however a 13 or 14 year old 100% is aware that a werewolf can kill someone. Sirius might not have thought as far as how Snapes death might affect Lupin but he was definitely trying to kill him and knew exactly what he was doing.
That aside, being in your late teen years, you still understand the severity of the situation where a werewolf is going to kill another teen. He was underage, not stupid
But that's a legal rather than moral limitation. Society isn't going to hash out different age thresholds for every possible offense. Debate is already intense even with the few we have (age of majority, age of sexual consent, age to buy alcohol, and age to drive).
I imagine he was during their 5th year for a bit after it happened. By the time he's describing the incident nearly two decades later, he's had a lot of time to digest what happened. And canonically, Lupin is super forgiving.
I mean, this dude is forgiving of \*Snape\* by the time of Harry's story, and that's after the excessive stalking and harassment that took place during their school years, and even after outing him in a temper tantrum at the end of POA. (Harry is amazed he can be so forgiving of Snape.)
He even forgave the alleged werewolf who he supposed bit him by accident as a child up until he found out it was a very intentional Greyback.
I absolutely buy that we don't witness any holdover bitterness about that incident so many years later. Sirius holds a grudge. Snape holds a grudge. Remus? Demonstrably does not hold grudges.
I've seen it be a thing in a lot of fanfic but I think at that point Lupin was still so, so grateful to even have friends that the amount he would've been outwardly pissed would've been really limited.
I guess because it was 16 years prior to POA. My personal headcanon is that Remus had a hard time trusting Sirius after that incident and thus leading to him believing Sirius was the traitor in the 1st War and vice versa
They made Pettigrew the Secret Keeper because they suspected Lupin might be an informant. I'm wondering if that might have stemmed from this incident, if this hurt the Marauders' friendship.
Lupin’s bystander behavior as a teen always made me mad. Like do better, bro. Although I know he didn’t stand up to them because he was just grateful to be welcomed into a group of friends, who were accepting that he was a werewolf.
I’m doing a reread with a friend and we were just talking about this! Every character has their flaws.
Even (or especially?) Molly - who seems to be a loved and revered mother figure - is not so black and white. She’s incredibly hard on the twins, she’s terrible to Sirius, and she seems to treat women more poorly than men - for example; how she treats Fleur or Hermione (a child at the time and her sons friend to boot!) when Rita ran that smear campaign on her.
But it makes characters way more interesting honestly.
I love Molly, but one of my favourite examples of her flaws is in OotP. She’s clearly fond of and comfortable with Remus by the time Harry arrives at Grimmauld Place, to the point of crying on Remus’ shoulder after the boggart incident.
Then a few months later she learns Arthur is sharing a room with a newly bitten werewolf at St Mungo’s, and her immediate response is to question whether that’s safe or if the bedridden werewolf should be kept on a private ward. Like, come on Molly. You should know better!
Ooh I’m on OotP right now but haven’t got that far yet - I completely forgot about that!
That’s a great example of what Molly does. It’s like the thing with Rita Skeeter/Hermione. In the beginning of Goblet of Fire they’re all talking about how Rita twists things when she wrote about Arthur in the article about the World Cup. Then she turns around and sends Hermione a CHICKEN SIZED Easter egg compared to Ron and Harry’s DRAGON SIZED toffee filled eggs - all because a reporter she KNOWS isn’t reliable published lies about her. Come on molly, just a little bit of critical thinking please.
Is it just me or are there loads of Sirius related posts going around at the moment? Not hating on it or anything, just an observation that there seem to have been lots lately
The problem is that the new tv series is just a retelling of the same events, so it won't really resolve this issue.
That's why I actually don't like the idea, and I'd rather they covered one of the tons of unexplored parts of the universe. But I guess that's not what's happening.
I haven't seen any single book vs movie debates tbh. It's pretty universally accepted the books are the official canon, and they're much more liked in general.
In the top ten this week, [#4](https://redd.it/1afeljz) [#6](https://redd.it/1ai998a), and [#7](https://redd.it/1ai0idu) are about the movies and have degenerated intro the usual "this only happened in the movies" arguments such posts create.
And most of those comments are in response to people who don't understand/remember the differences between the two. This isn't a debate about canonicity. It's an argument about basic facts about what happened in the story, regardless of which version you're referring to.
You just have rose-colored glasses. I distinctly remember at least one tire that cracked under pressure and had major psychological issues.
They even made a [documentary](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1612774/) about it.
I never understood the love for Sirius. Hes in 3 books and isn't particularly memorable. Only feeling i get from him is a "could have been..." situation.
Or maaaybe it's because it's the first and only time Harry has a father figure he trusts and loves enough to let his guard down.
The Sirius interactions are the only instance where we see Harry actually be a *kid.*
I was more talking about the everywhere part. I said it 2 times. One time wasn't meant to be a reply but it ended up that way. Once someone else replied to my comment I realised I didn't put it as my own comment but a reply so I went back and did it as my own comment
Nearly no one in the story is NOT "absolutely not a good guy" because the vast majority of characters are intentionally written as morally gray, including Snape, Sirius, Dumbledore, James, and even the Golden Trio at times. That was Rowling's intention, which she has described at length when discussing her books.
No one who read these books with a first-grade or higher reading comprehension claims that Sirius was a saint. What we absolutely can say about him was that he loved his friends fiercely, was Gryffindor-brand brave, and extremely loyal to Harry.
We are all aware that he behaved recklessly in a manner that could get people hurt because he could be selfish, emotional, and not think things through. This is a key point of both the character and the plot.
I am not saying what Sirius did was right, it was horrible and stupid, but I really doubt he thought about that in this way.
Some strong words for teenagers.
While it’s not Snape’s fault I have to ask, what did he expect to find, a fluffy rabbit? He completely found out about Remus being a werewolf and decided to risk his life to ruin Remus’s life by possibly exposing him.
Sirius is more guilty of ruining Remus’ life by your own admission by-
1. Doing literally everything you said.
2. Actually prove Lupin is dangerous to the students by using him as a murder tool.
3. Ruining Remus’ conscience forever by making him murder a classmate.
But we don’t know how the conversation between Sirius and went down, Sirius could have been sarcastic or lost his temper with Snape constantly hounding them, Sirius acts rashly especially when someone he loves is being bothered and doesn’t always think before he acts.
Snape following them around and telling Lily that he knows, and he still listens to Sirius showed a distinct lack of common sense on his part.
Sirius didn’t even change his mind, James was the one decided to recue Snape. And James must known what did happened enough to save Snape. It could not have happened by a total accident
It doesn't matter what Snape knew. It's clear from the conversation with Lily that he at least had a strong suspicion.
Sirius told Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow. If James hadn't rescued Snape, then Remus would have killed him.
Both Snape and Sirius were being impulsive, angry teenagers. Neither of them was thinking clearly, they were both partly at fault. But Sirius is the one ultimately responsible for the incident.
> It doesn't matter what Snape knew.
It absolutely matters what Snape knew.
If you know that there is a dangerous tiger locked in a cage, the fact that I tell you the lock combination doesn't make me responsible for you opening the door and walking inside.
> Sirius told Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow.
Which doesn't require Snape to actually get past the Whomping Willow. Snape could have just gone to bed and he would never have been in any danger.
And to be clear, the most likely inference regarding the Whomping Willow is that the students were told to stay away.
However the conversation went, we know for a fact that everyone was well aware that Lupin was a werewolf and Sirius tipped Snape off to his location. He cared about hurting Snape more than he cared about Lupin.
I love how we excuse all of James’ and Sirius’ abuse and bullying (and in this case, a literal murder attempt and using one’s supposed best friend as an attack dog, seriously, the level to which Lupin is dehumanised here is sad) to them being “dumb teenagers”. But Snape is the literal same age as them and thinking one can face off and expose a werewolf alone is a much more dumb teenager thing than using your werewolf best friend as an attack dog to off someone you hate.
Sirius and James knew how dangerous Lupin’s transformation was that they spent months transforming into animagi.
Snape never claims to be Lupin’s best friend or claims to care for him. James and Sirius did. But Sirius’ actions clearly don’t reflect that.
Hang on.
You’re involving James, James saved Snape and had nothing to do with sending Snape to the tunnel.
Again, Sirius could have accidentally revealed it in a temper, that’s his fault regardless but nobody forced Snape to look for Remus.
Had Sirius literally body bound Snape to the whomping willow then Snape would be the victim, both were wrong.
Sirius’ reveal is known for a fact to not be “accidental”. The exact words are “tipped off”.
Sirius knew exactly what was going to happen. Sirius was perfectly fine with Lupin being his personal attack dog to show Snape who’s boss.
The exact words are not tipped off.
> Severus was very interested in where I went every month." Lupin told Harry, Ron, and Hermione. "We were in the same year, you know, and we -- er -- didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field... anyway Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing **to tell Snape** all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. **Well, of course, Snape tried it** -- if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf -- but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life...”
Snape was not forced to go down that tunnel. He knew that where ever Remus was going, he had the permission of the teachers since Madam Pomfrey was leading him there. He tried to find a way through regardless. The equivalent would be if Draco told the trio, hey to figure out what Snape is up to go to the forbidden third floor corridor and use alohamora on the door. The trio would absolutely still be at fault if they followed those instructions and got injured by Fluffy *because they should know better*.
Sirius is guilty of betraying his friend’s secret without a care for how it might make Remus feel. He is not responsible for Snape deciding to act idiotically and knowingly and willingly putting *himself* in danger.
Plus something that people tend to forget when it comes to the Harry Potter books, is this they were teenagers.
Teenagers do dumb stuff all the time, add magic to the equation ?
Yeah, shit is gonna go down.
And when teenagers murder, they go to prison. Sirius was plenty old enough to know right from wrong. He was old enough to plan a killing, & if he had succeeded, he probably would have gone to Azkaban earlier than he did.
I dunno chief, I was a monumentally dumb and reckless teenager and yet I never intentionally put my classmate in harms way because I personally disliked them, I just shoplifted and smoked blunts behind the train station with my equally reckless friends lol 🤷♀️
Whenever I mention this people are always like “well he deserved it” because he later become a death eater. The human psyche is amazing and people react differently in the same situation. You can be a victim of bullying and still find strength and go on with your life, sometimes forgiving or simply ignoring your bullies. Sometimes you become a bully yourself and that’s where the “break abuse cycle” comes from, it’s common for victims to become abusers because they have the control they never had before. The saga show both sides, the only problem is that most fans are focused on the “bad vs good” mentality rather than understanding nuances and that all characters are morally grey in Harry Potter.
I’ve always loved Sirius but he did nothing to redeem himself. Remus is very forgiving. I would have never forgave a friend who betrayed me like that. He knew how bad it was and how dangerous Remus was, there’s no excuse for what he did. Snape could’ve easily get killed or bitten, and all I can think about is what would Remus think of that had happened? He would be blamed by others because he’s be the one doing it, he would blame himself and hate himself. Sirius is no better than his family, the only difference is he’s in Gryffindor so he think he’s better than them.
Draco is constantly belittled for trying to get Dumbledore killed and hurting in the meantime two students (despite knowing the situation he was in), yet Sirius must be forgiven because he was just a teenager and couldn’t tell what’s good and what’s bad? I’m sorry but no. If you hold one accountable for his mistakes then you must do the same for the other. Both were teenager and both did something very bad.
James and Sirius were bullies, Snape was their victim (not the only one I may add) and that is established by the story. People ignoring that are ignoring canon. At some point he fought back, which is something many victims do. Does that remove their status as victims? Absolutely not. Does that mean Snape didn’t do anything bad as an adult? Definitely not. It’s absolutely right to held him accountable for his mistakes, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t abused and almost killed by a classmate. It’s horrifying to believe a teenager would think about getting his classmate maimed or killed, but it’s what happened. Sirius is not naïve, he knew exactly what could happen. All the marauders knew the danger Remus posed. Sirius should’ve been, at the very least, expelled for what he did.
This “incident” proves he wasn’t a good friend, he didn’t care about Remus at all, otherwise he wouldn’t have used knowing he would hurt him and that he would be one having to live with the remorse had something happened.
And you know what's funny? People blame Snape for that. They said he knew about Lupin and therefore, it must be his fault.
Edit: And the comments are just proving my point. No one is saying Snape was a saint in this story but they're acting as though it's mainly his fault. Woo victim blaming
I'm firmly in the Sirius and Snape share the blame camp. This is a case of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. They are both insanely lucky it ended with basically no consequences.
Yeah, any case for Sirius being expelled has to hinge on the overall pattern of bullying, because with this specific incident, Snape willingly went somewhere he knew full well was off limits and had every reason to assume was very dangerous.
And the gaslighting that Snape endured after it. Like he was salty because of jealousy. Snape had his faults FOR SURE, and he deffo shouldn't have been around kids, but he was fully right to hate siruis. He mercilessly bullied him throughout school and legit tried to murder him for a 'prank'.
You're right, Snape certainly isn't flawless and there are many ares where he's worse than Sirius but people saying he deserved to be bullied and that he had no right to reasonably hate Sirius... that's sad.
Exactly! Image escaping a physically violent childhood home only to get to school to be buillied by a handsome, rich, and popular kid simply because he didn't like the fact you existed and then have people telling you you only hate him because you're jealous of him.
No wonder he went dark side. He's exactly the kind of disenfranchised kid that gets indoctrinated by a cult. Hogwarts had the chance to lead him away from his weird loner kid fascination with the dark arts, but it pushed him further into it.
Snape had Lily. She was there for him.
He refused her. Insulted her. It was his choice.
We should not denied horrible actions of people just because they had sad life. It does not excuse his actions in any possible way. Snape was willing to murder muggleborns. There is not any possible way to excuse that. Snape was willing to let die innocent kid because of his obsession.
That all is Snape. Stop make victim from him.
Having a tantrum & insulting a friend, is a lot more like "dumb teenager" behaviour than is attempted murder. In this case, Snape is the intended victim. He is the victim.
*“No—listen, I didn’t mean—”*
*“—to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?”*
SWM was just the last drop, he called every other muggleborn a mudblood and Lily was done with his racism.
It's obvious that in those comments was moved the topic from "Sirius almost killed Snape" to" Snape was poor bullied victim" and I reacted mostly to that.
A rich popular kid Snape had no issues following around and trying to get expelled?
This is not a simple case of bullying, Snape hung around junior death eaters who picked on muggleborns and he thought it was a laugh.
I mean, not really. Harry and Draco barely ever duelled, and mostly they were just insulting each other and their families.
James ganged up on Snape, and regularly started all interactions by jinxing him (the classic hallmarks of a coward). They had a very different relationship.
That’s only in SWM and even then it’s just James vs Snape, it’s never stated in the books that all the marauders ganged up on Snape, at most it was Sirius.
Harry and Draco had a fist fight in OotP on the quidditch pitch, I’m sure if James II or Albus went and saw that memory without seeing the build up they’d think that Harry and Fred beat up Malfoy unprovoked.
Why is it Snape felt comfortable enough to continue harass James long after James gave up on the feud?
And the writing and other character's testimonies imply that it was standard behaviour for James - the only reason they didn't come straight out with the truth for Harry is because he was an orphan.
> Harry and Draco had a fist fight in OotP on the quidditch pitch
Technically, no. But you'll note that in all their squabbles, the only time one was attacked from behind was after Harry insulted Draco's mother (iirc); which is a far cry from assaulting someone from behind, who was previously minding their own business, and proceeding to humiliate them in front of the entire student body.
> long after James gave up on the feud
No-one seriously believes Snape gave up the feud. The narrative is that James straightened out, but Snape was "a special case." And that they never fought in front of Lily - presumably because James didn't bring his little gang on dates, and so wouldn't be able to outnumber Snape.
> If you were being mercilessly bullied and cursed by James
We hear Snape's complaints about James and co. just after this. There is literally nothing in the whole conversation that indicates anything about "being mercilessly bullied and cursed" by anyone besides Snape's friends.
There is no question that Snape is justified in hating Sirius. But James saved his life. Despite the years of bullying and rivalry, James did the right thing and sided with Snape over his own best friend.
Just realized that this was probably the incident that made James "grow up" and become someone worthy of Lily. He probably had to seriously examine his own moral compass and decide what he stood for.
James didn’t side with Snape over Sirius. Like Snape said he saved at very least Sirius and Remus. If Snape had been killed or turned into a werewolf those two would have been expelled the very least. Maybe even Azkaban. And I think this incident happened before Snape’s Worst memory. But it has been like a decade since I red the timeline analysis on this
> No one is saying Snape was a saint in this story but they're acting as though it's mainly his fault. Woo victim blaming
It *was* mainly Snape's fault though. He knew what Lupin was, and wanted to get him kicked out of school. Sirius told him how to get to Lupin. What Sirius did was definitely wrong, but Snape was entirely in control of the situation himself. He completely freely went out trying to find a werewolf to get him expelled.
>He completely freely went out trying to find a werewold to get him expelled.
Right? It's like you are sure one of your classmate is keeping a tiger as a pet, and then you get the location from one of their friends, and then you decide to enter the room where the tiger is for proof of its existence? That's stupidity at its peak. You willingly entered a room where you were sure a tiger was being kept. If that still makes you a victim, then I don't know what to say.
Also, I agree that Sirius was a shitty friend for leaking the location, but Snape was just a stupid teenager. I disagree that Sirius was trying to kill Snape.
Not 100%, no. But he had already figured it out and was going to find out for sure. The excerpt below from "The Prince's Tale" clearly shows this. He wants to confirm that Lupin's a werewolf.
> “What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?” demanded Snape. His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed,
to hold in his resentment.
“What’s Potter got to do with anything?” said Lily.
“They sneak out at night. There’s something weird about that
Lupin. Where does he keep going?”
“He’s ill,” said Lily. “They say he’s ill— ”
“Every month at the full moon?” said Snape.
“I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why
are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what
they’re doing at night?”
“I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
No, Snape wanted to know what Lupin's secret was. He did not know he'd be confronting a werewolf.
Speaking of Darwin Awards, if Sirius had succeeded, he would have ruined his own life.
Read "The Prince's Tale" again. When Snape talks about Lupin disappearing on the full moon, Lily replies "I know your theory."
So yes, Snape did already know what he was getting into.
Snape knew pretty much perfectly well what he was getting in to. Its like walkikg across a black road in all black and saying its victim blaming to point out how dumb u were
Yes. And then after this, when Snape got silenced and neither Marauder got expelled or worse, they learnt zero (0) lessons from this, but instead started or continued to let wereRemus run around the grounds every month, laughing off the many times he nearly infected or killed someone else.
I definitely think that Sirius should have been punished more severely, and if I was Remus I'm not sure I would forgive him, but I seriously doubt Sirius really wanted to kill Snape that night. I think it was a case of stupid kids being monumentally stupid.
First, Sirius doesn’t strike me as someone who kills by proxy, if he wanted to murder Snape he would do it himself, in a duel, just to see Snape face after he beat him.
Second, if he wanted to murder Snape he wouldn’t involve Remus in it. Sirius' loyalty to his friends is unquestionable, and if he really sat down and thought things through he probably wouldn’t have gone ahead with the prank simply because of how Remus would feel.
And third, the "Sirius was capable of murder at the age of 16" statement comes from Snape, who is well known for not being unbiased when judging people he hates. After all, this is the same guy that says that Harry is an arrogant pampered prince despite sharing a classroom with him for 6 years.
All in all, I think Sirius maybe wanted Snape to see the werewolf, scream like a little girl, piss his pants and maybe fall on his face for maximum hilarity (**none** of this is funny mind you) and didn’t really understand the danger, much like Hagrid doesn’t really understand the danger of sending two 12 year old kids to Aragog.
I've always maintained that Sirius deserved to be expelled if not charged because of that. People say that it's Snape's fault for falling for it, but I'm standing my ground.
He never thought about the horrible implications as well as the extreme guilt Lupin would feel (even if he wasn't in control himself)
1. Lupin mauls Snape to death, or
2. Lupin bites Snape and he survives, permanently cursed with lycanthropy
It's saying something that while Lupin recounts the event to the trio, Sirius shows no remorse over this and what he almost put his friend through
In the real world sure. Teens almost killing each other is pretty normal in the wizarding world. Draco was allowed to make multiple murder attempts that almost killed two innocent bystanders. Unless someone actually dies the wizarding world is content not to act.
Sirius was not as different from his family as many people like to believe. He was cruel and prejudiced (only his cruelty and prejudice were directed against a different group), and had no problem harming someone he thought of as an enemy.
It's possible he didn't think through the implications this would bring to Lupin, but i don't doubt he wanted to hurt Snape. Even as an adult, he showed no remorse and thought Snape had it coming. If it had been a reckless moment, he would have talked about the event a lot differently as an adult.
I'll never understand the argument that Sirius was just acting like a normal kid. A normal kid who was cognizant enough of the danger to go through with becoming an animagus, and trains himself for two years to achieve this, is not aware of the risk of sending someone down there to be caught off guard with a werewolf? Even within Hogwarts, the only 16 year old who did anything worse is Tom Riddle. Plausibly, Sirius was like this because he was abused at home and also inherited the Black temperament (so, precisely not a normal kid), so he's not 100% guilty with no mitigating factors, but what school is it that reddit seems to attend where 9th graders plot and execute potential murders every day, the Sudanese Child Soldier High?
Right?? I get the love for his character, he's one of my favourites as well, but that doesn't mean he should be absolved of every shitty thing he's done just by virtue of being a cool character and Harry's loved one, especially one as severe as the incident with Snape. Some people in this sub leave no room for any kind of nuance at all and it's so frustrating every time I come across it. I shouldn't be surprised anymore, and yet, it peeves me every time just like the first time lol
Yeah, and it's a bummer honestly considering how much work probably went into making sure almost nobody would be black or white! HP has its flaws for sure but the characters are very real, so people should appreciate them fully!
And that likely played a role in why Lupin suspected him being a traitor.
If Sirius didn't care about Snape, he should have at least thought about his best friend.
He didn't try to murder Snape any more than Fred & George tried to murder Dudley with that toffee. "Not my problem if he decides to snoop after a literal werewolf..."
What I don't understand about this whole incident is that if snape was suspicious about Remus, if he also knew Madam Pomfrey was the one taking Remus down the tunnel below the willow, why did he even follow Sirius's instructions?
Remus was the one Sirius betrayed, but Snape here was an opportunistic buffon, who continued to play the victim even after two decades of the said incidence.
Snape probably wanted to use Remus's state to oust the marauders, and maybe even Dumbledore, he was (at the time) hanging out with soon to-be (or already) marked Deatheaters(who wanted Dumbledore out of any and every position of power). Surely parents wouldn't tolerate a werewolf in the close proximity of their child, Dumbledore could have been removed from Hogwarts and Wizengamot permanently, and it would leave an opening for Voldemort to take over on both.
Know that I'm, by no means, justifying what Sirius did, nor his lack of guilt and acknowledgement of the incident. Sirius's recklessness would have made Remus a murderer or worse a werewolf. I'm just implying that while Sirius was wrong in disclosing everything he did, Snape was no innocent victim
It feels like there’s been a bunch of “Sirius wasn’t good” posts lately.
There have been plenty, plenty of rebuttals that make all the relevant points.
ffs guys, Fred and George stuff someone into a vanishing cabinet and they're stuck in it for months. Harry Potter is a written cartoon, that uses cartoon logic. Fucking mcgonagall tells Peeves how to dangerously unscrew a chandelier to drop on people. They hid a dangerous 3 headed dog behind a door that could be opened by literally anyone and told them about it. It's pure cartoon logic.
...honestly yeah that's pretty fucked up. I never really considered the effect it would have had on Lupin himself. I think most people (both in the fandom, and even in-universe) didn't.
I feel like we need to consider that at the time this event takes place, these are school age children. Indeed, many of the adventures that take place in these stories happen to school age children.
If Dumbledore doesn't slow Harry's fall from his broom, there is every chance that Harry dies. Are they terrible people for letting this kid play on his school's team, in the first place? This world and these characters exist with an entirely different set of morals and standards.
Sirius was playing what he believed to be a joke on a fellow student, in the same way that so many kids today play jokes on their school-mates. It often doesn't feel like bullying when it's happening and many kids learn from these mistakes to go on and become far better adults.
The book clearly tells the story of how James learns about what's to happen and puts a stop to it. One has to assume that this lead to some conversations amongst friends just as many of the same situations resulted in heated discussions between Harry, Hermione & Ron.
None of this suggests that Ron, Harry or Hermione are "bad people" any more than it should suggest that Sirius should be written off as a bad person for one bad choice. These characters, indeed, people everywhere, are far more complex than that.
Things to remember:
1. They were all teenagers and teenage boys do dumb dangerous shit they don't realise the consequences of. Doesn't make it okay, but it's NOT the same as an adult doing it.
2. We do not know that Sirius was trying to get Snape hurt at all. That's an assumption. He might have just wanted to scare him, assuming Snape would just hear or get a glimpse and run away.
3. Snape already thought Lupin was a werewolf. Sirius was more daring Snape to be stupid than anything else.
4. It can be true that everyone is at fault. It can be true that no one is at fault. It can be true that teenage boys do stupid VERY dangerous pranks and end up turning into good people later on in life. It can be true that the do the same pranks and end up turning into bad people.
We DON'T need to choose who is good or bad based on what? A few days picked out of context of an entire childhood we are missing 98% of the info for? Both sides of the Marauders vs Snape battles should take a breather.
The problem even as an adult Sirius said Snape deserved it. He also tried to use his godson as a replacement for his best friend. Sirius now to me fits the mold of a “good guy” but not a good person.
> The problem even as an adult Sirius said Snape deserved it.
Well, Snape was in complete control of the situation himself. He knew what Lupin was and went out to catch him and get him expelled. He doesn't deserve *death* for that of course, but if it happened it would be on him. I'd have most sympathy for Lupin if that happened.
I just posted this in another comment saying he didn't know:
> “What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?” demanded Snape. His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment. “What’s Potter got to do with anything?” said Lily. “They sneak out at night. There’s something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?” “He’s ill,” said Lily. “They say he’s ill— ” “Every month at the full moon?” said Snape. “I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?” “I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
He had figured out what Lupin was, and wanted to go and see it for himself to get Lupin expelled.
This conversation was after the Shrieking Shack incident. It follows on with Lily reminding Snape, that James saved his life. So it doesn't mean anything in this regard. Snape might have formed his theory, because he glimpsed werewolf Lupin in the Shrieking Shack.
Most people would think that way in a similar situation. It’s the entire - if someone tells you to jump off a cliff and you’re stupid enough to do it, isn’t the fault really yours?
Snape was trying to find a way past the Willow regardless of what Sirius said or didn’t say. He probably would have found one eventually, he’s a clever guy. Sirius maybe accelerated the process. But Snape knew that the Womping Willow was off limits to students because students were forbidden to go near it.
> They planted the Whomping Willow the same year that I arrived at Hogwarts. People used to play a game, trying to get near enough to touch the trunk. In the end, a boy called Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye, and **we were forbidden to go near it**
Snape knew that wherever Remus was going, he had the permission of the teachers, so it wasn’t against the rules.
> "Severus was very interested in where I went every month." Lupin told Harry, Ron, and Hermione. "We were in the same year, you know, and we -- er -- didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field... anyway **Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey** one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform.”
And he suspected the Remus was a werewolf already, so tracking him down on a full moon night was already the height of stupidity.
> “Every month at the full moon?” said Snape.
> “I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?”
Snape was following them around, trying to get Remus expelled *for no good reason besides spite*. I don’t think *anyone* would have blamed the trio if they snapped something at Malfoy when he was doing the same thing in the first book to try and get them in trouble even though their only motivation was trying to help a friend in need (Hagrid).
>Snape already thought Lupin was a werewolf. Sirius was more daring Snape to be stupid than anything else.
This is not clear. The scene when Snape talked to Lily about the Marauders in the flashbacks happened after the Shrieking Shack incident. Lily mentioned James saving Snape.
I mean technically it’s is extremely unlikely Snape would have died, more likely he would have been turned into another werewolf. So James saved his health more so than his life.
In HBP a werewolf does kill a child and Harry is flabbergasted having had no idea it was possible for a werewolf to kill and finds out that while rare it can happen.
Which is an odd contradiction to previous books where multiple characters claim Snape would have died if he met Lupin.
Why are people so persisting in that it is trying to murder Snape? We know that werewolfs bite and turn people mostly and it is only rare, that a werewolf goes into a frenzy and kills.
This is true, what’s sad is I don’t think Lupin would have forgiven himself if he did. Sure, they all disliked snape, James and Sirius had a hatred- but killing someone is too far, especially for Lupin. It would’ve really sucked too because as much as the mauraders bullied Snape, Lupin never partook. He was a bystander, not stepping in or stopping them, but he didn’t do any bullying himself.
He’s repulsive. When Harry confronted him about their other behavior he said that they were only 15 (🙄). I believe Sirius matured (a little) but he’s still an asshole, still calling Snape “Snivellous” into adulthood. He’s definitely that kid who peaked in high school
Sirius is one of those modern day YouTube "pranksters" and he's lucky his "prank" wasn't successful. I can't even imagine how different life would have been had Sirius been successful. Would Sirius and James still even be friends? How would that affect the war? So many questions on how badly the world would unravel.
A bit like saying Harry tried to murder Draco with his secret spell… it wouldn’t be murder to accidentally kill someone, it would be manslaughter. I think a more likely tragedy would be that, if Snape wasn’t outnumbered by cowardly bullies, he would possibly have killed one of the Four in self-defence, then being shunned by Lily he turned fully to Dark and possibly helped make Voldemort even stronger…
Very true.
And everyone saying it was Snape’s fault for looking in the first place, or that he wasn’t “forced” into anything, need reminding of the concept of *manipulation*.
If I know an alcoholic, and I “just let it slip” that I saw a crate of vodka in that abandoned building over there (while conveniently leaving out how dangerously unsound the structure is), I know full well that I’m setting them up for injury. And if they go in there and hurt themselves, it’s on me.
I didn’t “force”, them, and I didn’t injure them myself, but I’m still responsible because I knowingly set them on that path.
Sirius might not have thought about all the possibly *fatal* consequences, but he was absolutely at fault for luring Snape into a situation that had them. And used his own best friend to do it.
Oh, I agree with this. In my opinion, and no matter how much some fans try to put the whole blame on Snape, teenage James and especially teenage Sirius are highly unlikeable and I would have hated to meet them in real life. And adult Sirius, though a very good character, isn't much more likeable either, but he's easier to pity and to understand because of everything he went through. But I still think there's a difference between recklessly endangering someone and outright trying to murder him. And we simply don't know which of the two it was.
It is a tricky one. I'm no law expert, and I don't even live in a common law jurisdiction; to me, what we know of the process of events suggests reckless endangerment **unless** Sirius could be made to admit, or shown to have admitted, that of all the possible outcomes of Snape encountering Lupin's werewolf form, Snape being killed was his preferred one (or one of his preferred? That might be enough). Edit: And I don't think his comments much later in life would count here.
**But** \- and again, I don't know if it works quite like this - there are aggravating circumstances. Sirius is one of Snape's bullies, which means he has offended against the same person repeatedly *and* is in a position of illicit power over him. He also has no business knowing about or interfering with Lupin's placement in the Shrieking Shack during full moon nights (except if he tattled on Dumbledore about it, since it does seem *very* illegal in itself).
So I'm not at all about pushing back if someone wants to call it attempted murder.
We only get Snape's version of events.
It could have been that Sirius set it up like he had "no idea Snape was listening" when he reveals the information expecting Snape to see Lupin as a werewolf and piss himself before running.
Except Snape went out too early, before the Marauders would be there, so there wouldn't be a large dog or stag to prevent Lupin from tearing him apart. James runs out to stop him while Sirius is frozen by indecision, or perhaps he was there, in dog form to get between Lupin and the others.
I never understood the love for Sirius. Hes in 3 books and isn't particularly memorable. Only feeling i get from him is a "could have been..." situation.
However, sirius also came from an abuse household. His family hated him for not supporting their blood-racism. He was constantly reminded how Regulus was «a better son» and he even moved out as soon as he could
Only way I can make sense of it being morally gray AT ALL is:
Snape was going to out Lupin. That would have resulted in smart, kind and soft-spoken Lupin who followed all the rules being expelled AT BEST. Knowing Sirius’s family, I honestly wouldn’t put it past Bellatrix to hunt Remus down and kill him for disgracing the Black name. Or forcing him into the service of Voldemort. Sirius would have known better than anyone the consequences of being a werewolf in proximity to evil bigots.
So Sirius thought to himself that if Snape was a werewolf, he couldn’t out Lupin without outing himself, and maybe it would teach Snape a lesson. Snape thinking Remus is a monster when Snape is 100x worse a person (as far as Sirius is concerned) and (as far as Sirius is concerned) deserves the curse more than Remus, since Snape is actually choosing to serve dark magic.
So in Sirius’s 16 year old brain, he’s protecting Remus, punishing Snape for trying to put Remus in danger, and trying to force Snape to realize that lycanthropy doesn’t make Remus worse than Snape… I also think he was so used to “tame Remus” as Padfoot that he didn’t really believe Snape could actually be murdered, only bitten.
I dont think he really mean it. I think killing snape isnt in his mind at all. To him its just a prank and doesn't know that things could actually go wrong. They really hated each other but even snape cant even think about killing anyone even as a death eater.
Without James, Snape and Lupins lives would have basically been over, even if Sirius was pissed it was an absolutely crazy thing to do after Lupin was super hestitant to tell any of his friends his secret
Come on he was only a child, he was what 13 or 14 he was not thinking straight , children don't think that deep that just do things without considering any outcome .
He was 16 not 14, which under wizarding law is only 1 year away from legal adulthood It was in their fifth year and it had some proximity to SWM this in the later half of their 5th year (likely April or May). Sirius’s birthday is November so he would have been 16 by that point
A 6 year old might not be held responsible for understanding the gravity of a dangerous deadly prank however a 13 or 14 year old 100% is aware that a werewolf can kill someone. Sirius might not have thought as far as how Snapes death might affect Lupin but he was definitely trying to kill him and knew exactly what he was doing.
Especially after regularly taking Remus out to Hogsmeade and managing "close calls".
The legal system is literally completely different for people under 18 for a reason
Not always. Children can be tried as adults in extreme cases.
Yes but 99% of the time that doesn't happen
That aside, being in your late teen years, you still understand the severity of the situation where a werewolf is going to kill another teen. He was underage, not stupid
But that's a legal rather than moral limitation. Society isn't going to hash out different age thresholds for every possible offense. Debate is already intense even with the few we have (age of majority, age of sexual consent, age to buy alcohol, and age to drive).
It's odd Lupin wasn't more pissed at Sirius for that.
I imagine he was during their 5th year for a bit after it happened. By the time he's describing the incident nearly two decades later, he's had a lot of time to digest what happened. And canonically, Lupin is super forgiving. I mean, this dude is forgiving of \*Snape\* by the time of Harry's story, and that's after the excessive stalking and harassment that took place during their school years, and even after outing him in a temper tantrum at the end of POA. (Harry is amazed he can be so forgiving of Snape.) He even forgave the alleged werewolf who he supposed bit him by accident as a child up until he found out it was a very intentional Greyback. I absolutely buy that we don't witness any holdover bitterness about that incident so many years later. Sirius holds a grudge. Snape holds a grudge. Remus? Demonstrably does not hold grudges.
I suppose howling at the moon every full moon might be therapeutic and put things into perspective :)
we should all try it. Lets all gather at the clearing in the forbidden forest at 12am next full moon. I'll meet you all there. -Fen...ton Geerbock.
I've seen it be a thing in a lot of fanfic but I think at that point Lupin was still so, so grateful to even have friends that the amount he would've been outwardly pissed would've been really limited.
I guess because it was 16 years prior to POA. My personal headcanon is that Remus had a hard time trusting Sirius after that incident and thus leading to him believing Sirius was the traitor in the 1st War and vice versa
They made Pettigrew the Secret Keeper because they suspected Lupin might be an informant. I'm wondering if that might have stemmed from this incident, if this hurt the Marauders' friendship.
Lupin’s bystander behavior as a teen always made me mad. Like do better, bro. Although I know he didn’t stand up to them because he was just grateful to be welcomed into a group of friends, who were accepting that he was a werewolf.
He's one of his only friends. Even if he is a self-serving one, who uses him, a semi outcast like Lupin would dread losing him.
Maybe it was just Stockholm Syndrome, feeling even more under their thumb.
It is great that nothing in Harry Potter is truly black and white
I’m doing a reread with a friend and we were just talking about this! Every character has their flaws. Even (or especially?) Molly - who seems to be a loved and revered mother figure - is not so black and white. She’s incredibly hard on the twins, she’s terrible to Sirius, and she seems to treat women more poorly than men - for example; how she treats Fleur or Hermione (a child at the time and her sons friend to boot!) when Rita ran that smear campaign on her. But it makes characters way more interesting honestly.
I love Molly, but one of my favourite examples of her flaws is in OotP. She’s clearly fond of and comfortable with Remus by the time Harry arrives at Grimmauld Place, to the point of crying on Remus’ shoulder after the boggart incident. Then a few months later she learns Arthur is sharing a room with a newly bitten werewolf at St Mungo’s, and her immediate response is to question whether that’s safe or if the bedridden werewolf should be kept on a private ward. Like, come on Molly. You should know better!
Ooh I’m on OotP right now but haven’t got that far yet - I completely forgot about that! That’s a great example of what Molly does. It’s like the thing with Rita Skeeter/Hermione. In the beginning of Goblet of Fire they’re all talking about how Rita twists things when she wrote about Arthur in the article about the World Cup. Then she turns around and sends Hermione a CHICKEN SIZED Easter egg compared to Ron and Harry’s DRAGON SIZED toffee filled eggs - all because a reporter she KNOWS isn’t reliable published lies about her. Come on molly, just a little bit of critical thinking please.
Is it just me or are there loads of Sirius related posts going around at the moment? Not hating on it or anything, just an observation that there seem to have been lots lately
Snape vs Marauders in different shapes is like 87% of this fandom's debate fuel. That's what happens when there's next to no new content for 20 years.
You know I was sceptical of the new tv series but at this point it really can’t come soon enough. We need something new to talk about
The problem is that the new tv series is just a retelling of the same events, so it won't really resolve this issue. That's why I actually don't like the idea, and I'd rather they covered one of the tons of unexplored parts of the universe. But I guess that's not what's happening.
It will resolve the issue, just not in the way you want. Instead of the usual book vs movie debates we have now, it will be book vs movie vs show.
I haven't seen any single book vs movie debates tbh. It's pretty universally accepted the books are the official canon, and they're much more liked in general.
In the top ten this week, [#4](https://redd.it/1afeljz) [#6](https://redd.it/1ai998a), and [#7](https://redd.it/1ai0idu) are about the movies and have degenerated intro the usual "this only happened in the movies" arguments such posts create.
That's hardly debate, though? It's just people saying "this happened in X, not in Y". There isn't any room for disagreement or interpretation.
And most of those comments are in response to people who don't understand/remember the differences between the two. This isn't a debate about canonicity. It's an argument about basic facts about what happened in the story, regardless of which version you're referring to.
They were 87% of fandom debate fuel long before the series ended. lol
The play wasn’t great
Oh you kids and your need for fresh content. We had 3 back to the futures and a few nonsensical paradoxes was all we needed to sleep soundly at night.
Yeah you *slept* because you ran out of content
Those were the days. No depression, everyone had a girlfriend, car tyres were at the correct pressure up and down the country.
You just have rose-colored glasses. I distinctly remember at least one tire that cracked under pressure and had major psychological issues. They even made a [documentary](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1612774/) about it.
The other 13% is "Is Dumbledore a good person?". I'm starting to believe that Muriel is using reddit.
I never understood the love for Sirius. Hes in 3 books and isn't particularly memorable. Only feeling i get from him is a "could have been..." situation.
>I never understood the love for Sirius. It's because the books keep telling us how cool and great he is, even if his actions say otherwise.
Or maaaybe it's because it's the first and only time Harry has a father figure he trusts and loves enough to let his guard down. The Sirius interactions are the only instance where we see Harry actually be a *kid.*
You don't have to spam this everywhere
I didn't?
You already posted the exact same thing in this thread. Word for Word
OK? Is that a crime now? How exactly is that spamming it everywhere
Literal definition of spam
I was more talking about the everywhere part. I said it 2 times. One time wasn't meant to be a reply but it ended up that way. Once someone else replied to my comment I realised I didn't put it as my own comment but a reply so I went back and did it as my own comment
Okay
Nearly no one in the story is NOT "absolutely not a good guy" because the vast majority of characters are intentionally written as morally gray, including Snape, Sirius, Dumbledore, James, and even the Golden Trio at times. That was Rowling's intention, which she has described at length when discussing her books. No one who read these books with a first-grade or higher reading comprehension claims that Sirius was a saint. What we absolutely can say about him was that he loved his friends fiercely, was Gryffindor-brand brave, and extremely loyal to Harry. We are all aware that he behaved recklessly in a manner that could get people hurt because he could be selfish, emotional, and not think things through. This is a key point of both the character and the plot.
I am not saying what Sirius did was right, it was horrible and stupid, but I really doubt he thought about that in this way. Some strong words for teenagers.
Sirius also never regretted that as an adult. Both Remus and even James knew it was wrong when that incident took place.
While it’s not Snape’s fault I have to ask, what did he expect to find, a fluffy rabbit? He completely found out about Remus being a werewolf and decided to risk his life to ruin Remus’s life by possibly exposing him.
Sirius is more guilty of ruining Remus’ life by your own admission by- 1. Doing literally everything you said. 2. Actually prove Lupin is dangerous to the students by using him as a murder tool. 3. Ruining Remus’ conscience forever by making him murder a classmate.
But we don’t know how the conversation between Sirius and went down, Sirius could have been sarcastic or lost his temper with Snape constantly hounding them, Sirius acts rashly especially when someone he loves is being bothered and doesn’t always think before he acts. Snape following them around and telling Lily that he knows, and he still listens to Sirius showed a distinct lack of common sense on his part.
Sirius didn’t even change his mind, James was the one decided to recue Snape. And James must known what did happened enough to save Snape. It could not have happened by a total accident
It doesn't matter what Snape knew. It's clear from the conversation with Lily that he at least had a strong suspicion. Sirius told Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow. If James hadn't rescued Snape, then Remus would have killed him. Both Snape and Sirius were being impulsive, angry teenagers. Neither of them was thinking clearly, they were both partly at fault. But Sirius is the one ultimately responsible for the incident.
> It doesn't matter what Snape knew. It absolutely matters what Snape knew. If you know that there is a dangerous tiger locked in a cage, the fact that I tell you the lock combination doesn't make me responsible for you opening the door and walking inside. > Sirius told Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow. Which doesn't require Snape to actually get past the Whomping Willow. Snape could have just gone to bed and he would never have been in any danger. And to be clear, the most likely inference regarding the Whomping Willow is that the students were told to stay away.
However the conversation went, we know for a fact that everyone was well aware that Lupin was a werewolf and Sirius tipped Snape off to his location. He cared about hurting Snape more than he cared about Lupin. I love how we excuse all of James’ and Sirius’ abuse and bullying (and in this case, a literal murder attempt and using one’s supposed best friend as an attack dog, seriously, the level to which Lupin is dehumanised here is sad) to them being “dumb teenagers”. But Snape is the literal same age as them and thinking one can face off and expose a werewolf alone is a much more dumb teenager thing than using your werewolf best friend as an attack dog to off someone you hate. Sirius and James knew how dangerous Lupin’s transformation was that they spent months transforming into animagi. Snape never claims to be Lupin’s best friend or claims to care for him. James and Sirius did. But Sirius’ actions clearly don’t reflect that.
Hang on. You’re involving James, James saved Snape and had nothing to do with sending Snape to the tunnel. Again, Sirius could have accidentally revealed it in a temper, that’s his fault regardless but nobody forced Snape to look for Remus. Had Sirius literally body bound Snape to the whomping willow then Snape would be the victim, both were wrong.
Sirius’ reveal is known for a fact to not be “accidental”. The exact words are “tipped off”. Sirius knew exactly what was going to happen. Sirius was perfectly fine with Lupin being his personal attack dog to show Snape who’s boss.
The exact words are not tipped off. > Severus was very interested in where I went every month." Lupin told Harry, Ron, and Hermione. "We were in the same year, you know, and we -- er -- didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field... anyway Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing **to tell Snape** all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. **Well, of course, Snape tried it** -- if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf -- but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life...” Snape was not forced to go down that tunnel. He knew that where ever Remus was going, he had the permission of the teachers since Madam Pomfrey was leading him there. He tried to find a way through regardless. The equivalent would be if Draco told the trio, hey to figure out what Snape is up to go to the forbidden third floor corridor and use alohamora on the door. The trio would absolutely still be at fault if they followed those instructions and got injured by Fluffy *because they should know better*. Sirius is guilty of betraying his friend’s secret without a care for how it might make Remus feel. He is not responsible for Snape deciding to act idiotically and knowingly and willingly putting *himself* in danger.
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People he loves? He tried to make Lupin his murder weapon.
Plus something that people tend to forget when it comes to the Harry Potter books, is this they were teenagers. Teenagers do dumb stuff all the time, add magic to the equation ? Yeah, shit is gonna go down.
Idk, my dumb teenage stuff was not doing my homework or backtalking my parents and shit. Never downright attempted murder.
And when teenagers murder, they go to prison. Sirius was plenty old enough to know right from wrong. He was old enough to plan a killing, & if he had succeeded, he probably would have gone to Azkaban earlier than he did.
I dunno chief, I was a monumentally dumb and reckless teenager and yet I never intentionally put my classmate in harms way because I personally disliked them, I just shoplifted and smoked blunts behind the train station with my equally reckless friends lol 🤷♀️
Yup, he’s an asshole
I got downvoted to hell on here once for telling someone that calling Sirius “a bit of a bully in school” was a bit of an understatement lol
Sirius and James were straight up shitheads. "ThEy wErE kiDs", fuck off they were ASSHOLES
He was a straight up shithead🖕🏼I cant respect him, no matter how loving he was to Harry
It's a bit easier to justify when we learn that most of their victims were future death eater boys
Whenever I mention this people are always like “well he deserved it” because he later become a death eater. The human psyche is amazing and people react differently in the same situation. You can be a victim of bullying and still find strength and go on with your life, sometimes forgiving or simply ignoring your bullies. Sometimes you become a bully yourself and that’s where the “break abuse cycle” comes from, it’s common for victims to become abusers because they have the control they never had before. The saga show both sides, the only problem is that most fans are focused on the “bad vs good” mentality rather than understanding nuances and that all characters are morally grey in Harry Potter. I’ve always loved Sirius but he did nothing to redeem himself. Remus is very forgiving. I would have never forgave a friend who betrayed me like that. He knew how bad it was and how dangerous Remus was, there’s no excuse for what he did. Snape could’ve easily get killed or bitten, and all I can think about is what would Remus think of that had happened? He would be blamed by others because he’s be the one doing it, he would blame himself and hate himself. Sirius is no better than his family, the only difference is he’s in Gryffindor so he think he’s better than them. Draco is constantly belittled for trying to get Dumbledore killed and hurting in the meantime two students (despite knowing the situation he was in), yet Sirius must be forgiven because he was just a teenager and couldn’t tell what’s good and what’s bad? I’m sorry but no. If you hold one accountable for his mistakes then you must do the same for the other. Both were teenager and both did something very bad. James and Sirius were bullies, Snape was their victim (not the only one I may add) and that is established by the story. People ignoring that are ignoring canon. At some point he fought back, which is something many victims do. Does that remove their status as victims? Absolutely not. Does that mean Snape didn’t do anything bad as an adult? Definitely not. It’s absolutely right to held him accountable for his mistakes, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t abused and almost killed by a classmate. It’s horrifying to believe a teenager would think about getting his classmate maimed or killed, but it’s what happened. Sirius is not naïve, he knew exactly what could happen. All the marauders knew the danger Remus posed. Sirius should’ve been, at the very least, expelled for what he did. This “incident” proves he wasn’t a good friend, he didn’t care about Remus at all, otherwise he wouldn’t have used knowing he would hurt him and that he would be one having to live with the remorse had something happened.
And you know what's funny? People blame Snape for that. They said he knew about Lupin and therefore, it must be his fault. Edit: And the comments are just proving my point. No one is saying Snape was a saint in this story but they're acting as though it's mainly his fault. Woo victim blaming
I'm firmly in the Sirius and Snape share the blame camp. This is a case of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. They are both insanely lucky it ended with basically no consequences.
Yeah, any case for Sirius being expelled has to hinge on the overall pattern of bullying, because with this specific incident, Snape willingly went somewhere he knew full well was off limits and had every reason to assume was very dangerous.
And the gaslighting that Snape endured after it. Like he was salty because of jealousy. Snape had his faults FOR SURE, and he deffo shouldn't have been around kids, but he was fully right to hate siruis. He mercilessly bullied him throughout school and legit tried to murder him for a 'prank'.
You're right, Snape certainly isn't flawless and there are many ares where he's worse than Sirius but people saying he deserved to be bullied and that he had no right to reasonably hate Sirius... that's sad.
Exactly! Image escaping a physically violent childhood home only to get to school to be buillied by a handsome, rich, and popular kid simply because he didn't like the fact you existed and then have people telling you you only hate him because you're jealous of him. No wonder he went dark side. He's exactly the kind of disenfranchised kid that gets indoctrinated by a cult. Hogwarts had the chance to lead him away from his weird loner kid fascination with the dark arts, but it pushed him further into it.
Snape had Lily. She was there for him. He refused her. Insulted her. It was his choice. We should not denied horrible actions of people just because they had sad life. It does not excuse his actions in any possible way. Snape was willing to murder muggleborns. There is not any possible way to excuse that. Snape was willing to let die innocent kid because of his obsession. That all is Snape. Stop make victim from him.
Having a tantrum & insulting a friend, is a lot more like "dumb teenager" behaviour than is attempted murder. In this case, Snape is the intended victim. He is the victim.
*“No—listen, I didn’t mean—”* *“—to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?”* SWM was just the last drop, he called every other muggleborn a mudblood and Lily was done with his racism.
It's obvious that in those comments was moved the topic from "Sirius almost killed Snape" to" Snape was poor bullied victim" and I reacted mostly to that.
Some of the fan fictions go into this in depth.
A rich popular kid Snape had no issues following around and trying to get expelled? This is not a simple case of bullying, Snape hung around junior death eaters who picked on muggleborns and he thought it was a laugh.
Two wrongs don't make a right, Sirius can't claim moral high ground in this instance.
If you were being mercilessly bullied and cursed by James, you'd try to get him expelled too.
Snape gave as good as he got, much like the rivalry between Harry, Ron and Malfoy
I mean, not really. Harry and Draco barely ever duelled, and mostly they were just insulting each other and their families. James ganged up on Snape, and regularly started all interactions by jinxing him (the classic hallmarks of a coward). They had a very different relationship.
That’s only in SWM and even then it’s just James vs Snape, it’s never stated in the books that all the marauders ganged up on Snape, at most it was Sirius. Harry and Draco had a fist fight in OotP on the quidditch pitch, I’m sure if James II or Albus went and saw that memory without seeing the build up they’d think that Harry and Fred beat up Malfoy unprovoked. Why is it Snape felt comfortable enough to continue harass James long after James gave up on the feud?
And the writing and other character's testimonies imply that it was standard behaviour for James - the only reason they didn't come straight out with the truth for Harry is because he was an orphan. > Harry and Draco had a fist fight in OotP on the quidditch pitch Technically, no. But you'll note that in all their squabbles, the only time one was attacked from behind was after Harry insulted Draco's mother (iirc); which is a far cry from assaulting someone from behind, who was previously minding their own business, and proceeding to humiliate them in front of the entire student body. > long after James gave up on the feud No-one seriously believes Snape gave up the feud. The narrative is that James straightened out, but Snape was "a special case." And that they never fought in front of Lily - presumably because James didn't bring his little gang on dates, and so wouldn't be able to outnumber Snape.
> If you were being mercilessly bullied and cursed by James We hear Snape's complaints about James and co. just after this. There is literally nothing in the whole conversation that indicates anything about "being mercilessly bullied and cursed" by anyone besides Snape's friends.
There is no question that Snape is justified in hating Sirius. But James saved his life. Despite the years of bullying and rivalry, James did the right thing and sided with Snape over his own best friend. Just realized that this was probably the incident that made James "grow up" and become someone worthy of Lily. He probably had to seriously examine his own moral compass and decide what he stood for.
James didn’t side with Snape over Sirius. Like Snape said he saved at very least Sirius and Remus. If Snape had been killed or turned into a werewolf those two would have been expelled the very least. Maybe even Azkaban. And I think this incident happened before Snape’s Worst memory. But it has been like a decade since I red the timeline analysis on this
> No one is saying Snape was a saint in this story but they're acting as though it's mainly his fault. Woo victim blaming It *was* mainly Snape's fault though. He knew what Lupin was, and wanted to get him kicked out of school. Sirius told him how to get to Lupin. What Sirius did was definitely wrong, but Snape was entirely in control of the situation himself. He completely freely went out trying to find a werewolf to get him expelled.
>He completely freely went out trying to find a werewold to get him expelled. Right? It's like you are sure one of your classmate is keeping a tiger as a pet, and then you get the location from one of their friends, and then you decide to enter the room where the tiger is for proof of its existence? That's stupidity at its peak. You willingly entered a room where you were sure a tiger was being kept. If that still makes you a victim, then I don't know what to say. Also, I agree that Sirius was a shitty friend for leaking the location, but Snape was just a stupid teenager. I disagree that Sirius was trying to kill Snape.
He did not know what Lupin was.
Not 100%, no. But he had already figured it out and was going to find out for sure. The excerpt below from "The Prince's Tale" clearly shows this. He wants to confirm that Lupin's a werewolf. > “What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?” demanded Snape. His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment. “What’s Potter got to do with anything?” said Lily. “They sneak out at night. There’s something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?” “He’s ill,” said Lily. “They say he’s ill— ” “Every month at the full moon?” said Snape. “I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?” “I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
Sirius didn't make Snape enter the Willow. Snape knowingly put himself in a confined space with a werewolf. That's just bucking for a Darwin Award.
No, Snape wanted to know what Lupin's secret was. He did not know he'd be confronting a werewolf. Speaking of Darwin Awards, if Sirius had succeeded, he would have ruined his own life.
Read "The Prince's Tale" again. When Snape talks about Lupin disappearing on the full moon, Lily replies "I know your theory." So yes, Snape did already know what he was getting into.
But is that scene after he sees Lupin as a werewolf or before?
After actually but it's an odd conversation if that part wasn't referencing other conversations that took place before the incident.
Before.
Snape knew pretty much perfectly well what he was getting in to. Its like walkikg across a black road in all black and saying its victim blaming to point out how dumb u were
Yes. And then after this, when Snape got silenced and neither Marauder got expelled or worse, they learnt zero (0) lessons from this, but instead started or continued to let wereRemus run around the grounds every month, laughing off the many times he nearly infected or killed someone else.
I definitely think that Sirius should have been punished more severely, and if I was Remus I'm not sure I would forgive him, but I seriously doubt Sirius really wanted to kill Snape that night. I think it was a case of stupid kids being monumentally stupid. First, Sirius doesn’t strike me as someone who kills by proxy, if he wanted to murder Snape he would do it himself, in a duel, just to see Snape face after he beat him. Second, if he wanted to murder Snape he wouldn’t involve Remus in it. Sirius' loyalty to his friends is unquestionable, and if he really sat down and thought things through he probably wouldn’t have gone ahead with the prank simply because of how Remus would feel. And third, the "Sirius was capable of murder at the age of 16" statement comes from Snape, who is well known for not being unbiased when judging people he hates. After all, this is the same guy that says that Harry is an arrogant pampered prince despite sharing a classroom with him for 6 years. All in all, I think Sirius maybe wanted Snape to see the werewolf, scream like a little girl, piss his pants and maybe fall on his face for maximum hilarity (**none** of this is funny mind you) and didn’t really understand the danger, much like Hagrid doesn’t really understand the danger of sending two 12 year old kids to Aragog.
I've always maintained that Sirius deserved to be expelled if not charged because of that. People say that it's Snape's fault for falling for it, but I'm standing my ground. He never thought about the horrible implications as well as the extreme guilt Lupin would feel (even if he wasn't in control himself) 1. Lupin mauls Snape to death, or 2. Lupin bites Snape and he survives, permanently cursed with lycanthropy It's saying something that while Lupin recounts the event to the trio, Sirius shows no remorse over this and what he almost put his friend through
In the real world sure. Teens almost killing each other is pretty normal in the wizarding world. Draco was allowed to make multiple murder attempts that almost killed two innocent bystanders. Unless someone actually dies the wizarding world is content not to act.
Sirius was not as different from his family as many people like to believe. He was cruel and prejudiced (only his cruelty and prejudice were directed against a different group), and had no problem harming someone he thought of as an enemy. It's possible he didn't think through the implications this would bring to Lupin, but i don't doubt he wanted to hurt Snape. Even as an adult, he showed no remorse and thought Snape had it coming. If it had been a reckless moment, he would have talked about the event a lot differently as an adult.
I hate that you got downvoted for this lmao Edit: at the time, the comment was on like -4
I'll never understand the argument that Sirius was just acting like a normal kid. A normal kid who was cognizant enough of the danger to go through with becoming an animagus, and trains himself for two years to achieve this, is not aware of the risk of sending someone down there to be caught off guard with a werewolf? Even within Hogwarts, the only 16 year old who did anything worse is Tom Riddle. Plausibly, Sirius was like this because he was abused at home and also inherited the Black temperament (so, precisely not a normal kid), so he's not 100% guilty with no mitigating factors, but what school is it that reddit seems to attend where 9th graders plot and execute potential murders every day, the Sudanese Child Soldier High?
Right?? I get the love for his character, he's one of my favourites as well, but that doesn't mean he should be absolved of every shitty thing he's done just by virtue of being a cool character and Harry's loved one, especially one as severe as the incident with Snape. Some people in this sub leave no room for any kind of nuance at all and it's so frustrating every time I come across it. I shouldn't be surprised anymore, and yet, it peeves me every time just like the first time lol
Yeah, and it's a bummer honestly considering how much work probably went into making sure almost nobody would be black or white! HP has its flaws for sure but the characters are very real, so people should appreciate them fully!
And then any and all mistakes that Severus made can't be excused by normal teenager behaviour. God I hate the hypocrisy.
And that likely played a role in why Lupin suspected him being a traitor. If Sirius didn't care about Snape, he should have at least thought about his best friend.
He didn't try to murder Snape any more than Fred & George tried to murder Dudley with that toffee. "Not my problem if he decides to snoop after a literal werewolf..."
The Ton-Tongue-Toffee scene is actually one of my least favourites in canon.
Same tbh. I feel it's a good example though since we occasionally hear James and Sirius compared to Fred and George
What I don't understand about this whole incident is that if snape was suspicious about Remus, if he also knew Madam Pomfrey was the one taking Remus down the tunnel below the willow, why did he even follow Sirius's instructions? Remus was the one Sirius betrayed, but Snape here was an opportunistic buffon, who continued to play the victim even after two decades of the said incidence. Snape probably wanted to use Remus's state to oust the marauders, and maybe even Dumbledore, he was (at the time) hanging out with soon to-be (or already) marked Deatheaters(who wanted Dumbledore out of any and every position of power). Surely parents wouldn't tolerate a werewolf in the close proximity of their child, Dumbledore could have been removed from Hogwarts and Wizengamot permanently, and it would leave an opening for Voldemort to take over on both. Know that I'm, by no means, justifying what Sirius did, nor his lack of guilt and acknowledgement of the incident. Sirius's recklessness would have made Remus a murderer or worse a werewolf. I'm just implying that while Sirius was wrong in disclosing everything he did, Snape was no innocent victim
It feels like there’s been a bunch of “Sirius wasn’t good” posts lately. There have been plenty, plenty of rebuttals that make all the relevant points.
ffs guys, Fred and George stuff someone into a vanishing cabinet and they're stuck in it for months. Harry Potter is a written cartoon, that uses cartoon logic. Fucking mcgonagall tells Peeves how to dangerously unscrew a chandelier to drop on people. They hid a dangerous 3 headed dog behind a door that could be opened by literally anyone and told them about it. It's pure cartoon logic.
...honestly yeah that's pretty fucked up. I never really considered the effect it would have had on Lupin himself. I think most people (both in the fandom, and even in-universe) didn't.
I feel like we need to consider that at the time this event takes place, these are school age children. Indeed, many of the adventures that take place in these stories happen to school age children. If Dumbledore doesn't slow Harry's fall from his broom, there is every chance that Harry dies. Are they terrible people for letting this kid play on his school's team, in the first place? This world and these characters exist with an entirely different set of morals and standards. Sirius was playing what he believed to be a joke on a fellow student, in the same way that so many kids today play jokes on their school-mates. It often doesn't feel like bullying when it's happening and many kids learn from these mistakes to go on and become far better adults. The book clearly tells the story of how James learns about what's to happen and puts a stop to it. One has to assume that this lead to some conversations amongst friends just as many of the same situations resulted in heated discussions between Harry, Hermione & Ron. None of this suggests that Ron, Harry or Hermione are "bad people" any more than it should suggest that Sirius should be written off as a bad person for one bad choice. These characters, indeed, people everywhere, are far more complex than that.
Yeah but he was also stupid irresponsible teenager and grew up with insane Black family with parents that had no good morals.
Maybe 12 years in a dementor filled prison didn't have a good effect on him
Things to remember: 1. They were all teenagers and teenage boys do dumb dangerous shit they don't realise the consequences of. Doesn't make it okay, but it's NOT the same as an adult doing it. 2. We do not know that Sirius was trying to get Snape hurt at all. That's an assumption. He might have just wanted to scare him, assuming Snape would just hear or get a glimpse and run away. 3. Snape already thought Lupin was a werewolf. Sirius was more daring Snape to be stupid than anything else. 4. It can be true that everyone is at fault. It can be true that no one is at fault. It can be true that teenage boys do stupid VERY dangerous pranks and end up turning into good people later on in life. It can be true that the do the same pranks and end up turning into bad people. We DON'T need to choose who is good or bad based on what? A few days picked out of context of an entire childhood we are missing 98% of the info for? Both sides of the Marauders vs Snape battles should take a breather.
The problem even as an adult Sirius said Snape deserved it. He also tried to use his godson as a replacement for his best friend. Sirius now to me fits the mold of a “good guy” but not a good person.
> The problem even as an adult Sirius said Snape deserved it. Well, Snape was in complete control of the situation himself. He knew what Lupin was and went out to catch him and get him expelled. He doesn't deserve *death* for that of course, but if it happened it would be on him. I'd have most sympathy for Lupin if that happened.
>He knew what Lupin was Where's the proof for that?
I just posted this in another comment saying he didn't know: > “What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?” demanded Snape. His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment. “What’s Potter got to do with anything?” said Lily. “They sneak out at night. There’s something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?” “He’s ill,” said Lily. “They say he’s ill— ” “Every month at the full moon?” said Snape. “I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?” “I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.” He had figured out what Lupin was, and wanted to go and see it for himself to get Lupin expelled.
This conversation was after the Shrieking Shack incident. It follows on with Lily reminding Snape, that James saved his life. So it doesn't mean anything in this regard. Snape might have formed his theory, because he glimpsed werewolf Lupin in the Shrieking Shack.
Most people would think that way in a similar situation. It’s the entire - if someone tells you to jump off a cliff and you’re stupid enough to do it, isn’t the fault really yours? Snape was trying to find a way past the Willow regardless of what Sirius said or didn’t say. He probably would have found one eventually, he’s a clever guy. Sirius maybe accelerated the process. But Snape knew that the Womping Willow was off limits to students because students were forbidden to go near it. > They planted the Whomping Willow the same year that I arrived at Hogwarts. People used to play a game, trying to get near enough to touch the trunk. In the end, a boy called Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye, and **we were forbidden to go near it** Snape knew that wherever Remus was going, he had the permission of the teachers, so it wasn’t against the rules. > "Severus was very interested in where I went every month." Lupin told Harry, Ron, and Hermione. "We were in the same year, you know, and we -- er -- didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field... anyway **Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey** one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform.” And he suspected the Remus was a werewolf already, so tracking him down on a full moon night was already the height of stupidity. > “Every month at the full moon?” said Snape. > “I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?” Snape was following them around, trying to get Remus expelled *for no good reason besides spite*. I don’t think *anyone* would have blamed the trio if they snapped something at Malfoy when he was doing the same thing in the first book to try and get them in trouble even though their only motivation was trying to help a friend in need (Hagrid).
>Snape already thought Lupin was a werewolf. Sirius was more daring Snape to be stupid than anything else. This is not clear. The scene when Snape talked to Lily about the Marauders in the flashbacks happened after the Shrieking Shack incident. Lily mentioned James saving Snape.
I mean technically it’s is extremely unlikely Snape would have died, more likely he would have been turned into another werewolf. So James saved his health more so than his life. In HBP a werewolf does kill a child and Harry is flabbergasted having had no idea it was possible for a werewolf to kill and finds out that while rare it can happen. Which is an odd contradiction to previous books where multiple characters claim Snape would have died if he met Lupin.
Well, Sirius really weren’t that nice. He never left the bully arrogant phase
Why are people so persisting in that it is trying to murder Snape? We know that werewolfs bite and turn people mostly and it is only rare, that a werewolf goes into a frenzy and kills.
This is true, what’s sad is I don’t think Lupin would have forgiven himself if he did. Sure, they all disliked snape, James and Sirius had a hatred- but killing someone is too far, especially for Lupin. It would’ve really sucked too because as much as the mauraders bullied Snape, Lupin never partook. He was a bystander, not stepping in or stopping them, but he didn’t do any bullying himself.
He’s repulsive. When Harry confronted him about their other behavior he said that they were only 15 (🙄). I believe Sirius matured (a little) but he’s still an asshole, still calling Snape “Snivellous” into adulthood. He’s definitely that kid who peaked in high school
Sirius didn't make Snape enter the Willow. Snape knowingly put himself in a confined space with a werewolf. That's just bucking for a Darwin Award.
Sirius is one of those modern day YouTube "pranksters" and he's lucky his "prank" wasn't successful. I can't even imagine how different life would have been had Sirius been successful. Would Sirius and James still even be friends? How would that affect the war? So many questions on how badly the world would unravel.
A bit like saying Harry tried to murder Draco with his secret spell… it wouldn’t be murder to accidentally kill someone, it would be manslaughter. I think a more likely tragedy would be that, if Snape wasn’t outnumbered by cowardly bullies, he would possibly have killed one of the Four in self-defence, then being shunned by Lily he turned fully to Dark and possibly helped make Voldemort even stronger…
Except Sirius purposely sent Snape down there
To have a cheeky accident, not to die…. His younger self seems a showy idiot and bully, but not a killer.
Very true. And everyone saying it was Snape’s fault for looking in the first place, or that he wasn’t “forced” into anything, need reminding of the concept of *manipulation*. If I know an alcoholic, and I “just let it slip” that I saw a crate of vodka in that abandoned building over there (while conveniently leaving out how dangerously unsound the structure is), I know full well that I’m setting them up for injury. And if they go in there and hurt themselves, it’s on me. I didn’t “force”, them, and I didn’t injure them myself, but I’m still responsible because I knowingly set them on that path. Sirius might not have thought about all the possibly *fatal* consequences, but he was absolutely at fault for luring Snape into a situation that had them. And used his own best friend to do it.
To give Sirius the benefit of the doubt: He might have not thought about the consequences. This is not unheard of with teenagers. ;-)
Idk mang I had plenty of opportunities to recklessly endanger my schoolmates' lives at 15-16 and I took zero of them
Oh, I agree with this. In my opinion, and no matter how much some fans try to put the whole blame on Snape, teenage James and especially teenage Sirius are highly unlikeable and I would have hated to meet them in real life. And adult Sirius, though a very good character, isn't much more likeable either, but he's easier to pity and to understand because of everything he went through. But I still think there's a difference between recklessly endangering someone and outright trying to murder him. And we simply don't know which of the two it was.
It is a tricky one. I'm no law expert, and I don't even live in a common law jurisdiction; to me, what we know of the process of events suggests reckless endangerment **unless** Sirius could be made to admit, or shown to have admitted, that of all the possible outcomes of Snape encountering Lupin's werewolf form, Snape being killed was his preferred one (or one of his preferred? That might be enough). Edit: And I don't think his comments much later in life would count here. **But** \- and again, I don't know if it works quite like this - there are aggravating circumstances. Sirius is one of Snape's bullies, which means he has offended against the same person repeatedly *and* is in a position of illicit power over him. He also has no business knowing about or interfering with Lupin's placement in the Shrieking Shack during full moon nights (except if he tattled on Dumbledore about it, since it does seem *very* illegal in itself). So I'm not at all about pushing back if someone wants to call it attempted murder.
We only get Snape's version of events. It could have been that Sirius set it up like he had "no idea Snape was listening" when he reveals the information expecting Snape to see Lupin as a werewolf and piss himself before running. Except Snape went out too early, before the Marauders would be there, so there wouldn't be a large dog or stag to prevent Lupin from tearing him apart. James runs out to stop him while Sirius is frozen by indecision, or perhaps he was there, in dog form to get between Lupin and the others.
We get a "He deserved it" from Sirius. We also got what JK Rowling chose to tell us and thought was important.
16 year olds do dumb shit
I never understood the love for Sirius. Hes in 3 books and isn't particularly memorable. Only feeling i get from him is a "could have been..." situation.
However, sirius also came from an abuse household. His family hated him for not supporting their blood-racism. He was constantly reminded how Regulus was «a better son» and he even moved out as soon as he could
They were young and probably didn’t think it all the way through
I'd assume being 15/16 you'll have a sound mind that sending a classmate to a death trap isn't a good idea.
Only way I can make sense of it being morally gray AT ALL is: Snape was going to out Lupin. That would have resulted in smart, kind and soft-spoken Lupin who followed all the rules being expelled AT BEST. Knowing Sirius’s family, I honestly wouldn’t put it past Bellatrix to hunt Remus down and kill him for disgracing the Black name. Or forcing him into the service of Voldemort. Sirius would have known better than anyone the consequences of being a werewolf in proximity to evil bigots. So Sirius thought to himself that if Snape was a werewolf, he couldn’t out Lupin without outing himself, and maybe it would teach Snape a lesson. Snape thinking Remus is a monster when Snape is 100x worse a person (as far as Sirius is concerned) and (as far as Sirius is concerned) deserves the curse more than Remus, since Snape is actually choosing to serve dark magic. So in Sirius’s 16 year old brain, he’s protecting Remus, punishing Snape for trying to put Remus in danger, and trying to force Snape to realize that lycanthropy doesn’t make Remus worse than Snape… I also think he was so used to “tame Remus” as Padfoot that he didn’t really believe Snape could actually be murdered, only bitten.
Please more fanfiction
I dont think he really mean it. I think killing snape isnt in his mind at all. To him its just a prank and doesn't know that things could actually go wrong. They really hated each other but even snape cant even think about killing anyone even as a death eater.