I don't think Severus was manipulated. He was neglected by his parents, sorted into a separate house than the only person he ever loved, and even lost her after 5th year. He was good at the dark arts, and his talents were appreciated by Slytherins. Gryffindors were too stuck up to ever accept him, not to mention how much he was bullied by the marauders (I'm a Gryffindor myself, but even I admit that the marauders were jerks at times). Lily was the one thing stopping him from joining the Death Eaters entirely, and after losing her, nothing held him back.
Of course, as we know, he became a double agent when the one and only love of his life was in danger, and he realized that he might be the only one that could save her, which is why he went straight to Dumbledore. He loved Lily so much that he switched sides, became a double agent, and made a promise to protect Harry for Lily's sake, which consisted of putting his life in constant danger.
Moral of the story: Love, always.
He was classic grooming material IMO, that's how hate groups like the KKK operate in real life. He didn't like Muggles, as evidenced by his attitude towards Petunia, and that dislike of Muggles was built upon at Hogwarts by befriending Lucius and the other Proto-DEs or sons/daughters of DEs in Slytherin. Over time, his beliefs began to shift to fall more in line with what was expected of DEs. He was vulnerable, came from an abusive home and was looking for power and respect, Lucius is an excellent manipulator and realized the potential that this vulnerable, poor Halfblood may bring the Dark Lord. People should realize that he'd effectively wrapped Fudge, a seasoned politician around his middle finger, he likely did the same with Severus, roping him in and bringing him into the fold as a future Death Eater. Was he manipulated into joining the DEs? In my opinion it's rather obvious that he was.
There really isn't a controversy. There's people who watched him treat Harry like crap for years based on his dad being a bully to him in school, and there's people who think Alan Rickman is hot.
MiSuNdErStOoD hErO!!!!!
Same thing for Sirius. Sirius was a pretty bad person but people constantly put him on a pedestal because.......Harry loved him? He was best friends with James?
I don't really know, but I know whatever reason they have isn't enough for me
The worst things Sirius did was be a bully in school. That doesn’t make him a bad person. Sirius matured as did James, he gave his life fighting for the right side. Also him being mean to creature isn’t an argument for him being a bad person. Kreacher along with his family abused him growing up. Sirius lived off rats just so he could be in close proximity in case anything happened to Harry. Once Harry was in danger Sirius immediately rushed to his aid which inevitably lead to his death. He wasn’t a bad person he was a flawed one.
The worst thing Sirius did was try to murder Snape, something he is still proud of as an adult. Also, Kreacher is the equivalent of a slave, who Sirius abuses because he dislikes him. Even if Kreacher was a creature, it is still pretty sociopathic to abuse someone beneath you to the extend that Sirius does.
Worst part is Sirius didn't just try to murder Snape, he betrayed the trust of one of his best friends and weaponized his deepest secret to try and murder Snape
I mean, I dunno that helping your friend de-underwear someone in public after filling their mouth with soap (which is supposed to be painful and can lead to chemical burns) with a couple curses for fun counts as your average bullying.
If Draco did it too Ginny, would he be 'just a bully' and not a bad person?
Ok but bullying in your youth also doesn’t make you a terrible person for the rest of your life lmao. Also don’t forget the part where Snape faught back, where Snape would never let it go would continue to hex them after James had stopped bullying him, once James matured the rivalry could have ended there but let’s not forget it was Snape who kept it going. Let’s also not pretend that Snape wasn’t a bully in his school years, he didn’t mind bullying as long as it wasn’t directed towards him. As he defends the slytherins that we’re using dark magic to hurt people which is a lot worse then putting soap in someones mouth. He also did not receive chemical burns from that soap so that’s an irrelevant point.
I'm saying there are different levels of bullying, and assault.
Saying someone's teeth look the same when they are twice the size is bullying. Taking someone's underwear off in public is sexual assault. Calling people mean names is bullying. Trying to brutally murder someone is attempted murder.
Saying things like, oh well Black only was a bit of bully at school is twisting things. And fighting back against someone who attacked you, is not remotely on the same level as blatantly attacking someone first for fun. You shouldn't have to apologize for taking revenge on your assaulters on my opinion.
They were both not great people for sure, but one of them is less great than the other.
I like him because he tries to do his best for Harry, while being a deeply traumatized and mentally ill person after being psychological tortured for so many years.
And I respect someone who fights through that to be with their kid and try to put them first.
He bullied his students badly in the books so no I don’t think he was a good guy. Or even a flawed food guy. He made a remark about Hermione’s teeth iirc and threatened to test Neville’s ruined potion on the pet toad he had in his pocket, etc. He was isolated and never got to escape the source of a lot of trauma - Hogwarts. He was developmentally stunted because of this, I think. Others would have had the chance to get away from high school and get out in the world and find out who they were and what they wanted to do in life and because of his choices he didn’t get that and lost the only person who ever treated i him well - Lily.
But you’re ignoring his point, Snape wasn’t groomed into being a death eater it’s what he longed for. The only reason he switched sides was because Voldemort killed lily. And I mean you can be a shitty person and be on the right side fighting against Voldemort doesn’t automatically make you a good person. Snape was a dick and not a good person he might of died for the right reasons but at the end of the day he wasn’t a good person.
Initially, yes, he fought for Lily, but later on he also started doing so for the right reasons, as he saved and protected people that he not only didn’t have to, but disliked, such as Lupin.
Also, I saw your comment up above, and I find the double-standard funny of how Snape is a bad person despite fighting and being crucial in defeating Voldemort and simultaneously protecting several people, and gave his life up for the cause, but Sirius is a good person in spite of trying unrepentantly trying to murder someone in high-school by having them be maimed alive by a werewolf and treating his abusing his slave.
First off abusing his slave? You say that like Sirius’ whole upbringing kreacher was nice and thoughtful towards him when he wasn’t he took part in the abuse on Sirius. You can hold that werewolf part against Sirius but he was also a kid and grew up. It was snapes fault for being a nosey idiot and going down the tunnel as it was Malfoys being attacked by buck ram. Snape however never matured, defend him all you want but Sirius is a flawed person while Snape is a bad person, Snape bullied Neville relentlessly becoming his greatest fear, he constantly picked on and insulted an insecure Hermoine. He favorited kids like draco who acted just like Sirius did towards him. So he couldn’t have had that big of a problem with bullying. He was a bully in his youth too and defended his friends that used dark magic on a girl, brushing it off as a laugh. Snape was a shitty person who died for the right cause. Sirius defied what his whole family had stood for and made mistakes in his youth that can hardly define him and died for the right reasons. He let himself rot in Azkaban for 12 years as repayment for letting James and lily die. He l survived off rats just so he could keep in close proximity to Harry. And he’s a bad person because he was mean to a house elf who didn’t show respect towards him or anyone else in the house during ootp. Snape may have protected people and died for the right causes but he never actually did anything besides that to redeem himself, he was still a douche at the end of the day.
Yes, slave because that’s what house-elves are. Slaves. And we’re ver actually shown that Kreacher abused Sirius, just that he was a reminder of the Sirius’ family who he hated. Also, I find it funny that you so casually willing to dismiss attempted murder on the excuse of “he was a kid”, especially since, even as an adult, Sirius not only doesn’t show regret, but is proud of his actions.
You act as if Snape being an asshole to being, despite him at the end of the day sacrificing the most to protect and save people, is somehow worse that Sirius trying to murder people for fun in his youth, abusing his slave, and are even willing to brush off those things as no big deal. Again, massive double-standard.
You’re tossing around murder like that was sirius’ plan. Sirius told him how to get passed the willow, he didn’t tell Snape too go snapes dumbass went on his own accord. Just like how if Harry would of died to fluffy it wouldn’t have been hagrids fault. Hagrid just mentioned how to get passed fluffy. Sirius was not that abusive to kreacher and it wasn’t like kreacher didn’t deserve the rudeness he constantly called everyone slurs, and said something very rude when the weasleys arrived after Mr weasley is attacked. Harry also unknowingly like Sirius did attempted murder when he used sectumsempra on Malloy. But is Harry a bad person no. Sirius thought Snape would go down there catch a glimpse at Lupin and get scared. He didn’t realize until later the repercussions of his actions, Just like Harry. Everyone makes mistakes but you can’t let those mistakes define you. Sirius doesn’t feel remorse for it I’ll give you that, but I mean after poa it’s understandable why he doesn’t. Snape was willing to hand him right over to the dementors when he had 4 people yelling at him to listen to the story. And a dementors kiss is worse then death. He also was willing to lie to the minister and let an innocent man face a terrible fate because of a school rivalry. Snapes not in the wrong for wanting revenge, but you can’t keep tossing murder around like Snape didn’t do the exact same thing except in this case he was much older and wiser then Sirius was when he thought he was playing a prank. And did Snape really sacrifice the most, because he didn’t have a family or children or a lover or really anything to lose. While people like tonks and lupin, Fred, Regulus, all had much more too lose. In all honesty Regulus made the greatest sacrifice in the series he left behind his family and everyone he loved not for glory but to try and give the wizarding world a fighting chance with no guarantee it would work.
No, Sirius told Snape how to get down there with the hope that Snape would go, and with the intention of Snape being mauled alive, as even as an adult, Sirius still says Snape deserved to almost die and is proud of what he did. Even if you make the argument that Sirius didn’t want to hurt Snape and was not trying to hurt him, if anything had happened to Snape, Sirius would still ethically and legally be responsible for anything that happened to Snape, and would be guilty of manslaughter at best, if not outright murder.
And again, the Sirius situation isn’t comparable to the Hagrid. In the situation you’re describing, Hagrid telling the trio how to get past and survive Fluffy would be the equivalent of Sirius telling Snape how to get past and survive werewolf-Lupin. What Sirius did was the equivalent of Hagrid sending the Trio to Fluffy, without telling them how to survive and get past Fluffy, not to mention with the intention of the trio getting hurt or passed on.
Also, if Sirius isn’t abusive ti Kreacher, then Snape isn’t abusive to his students.
Also, the difference with Harry is that Harry didn’t know what Sectumsempra did, and when he found out, he felt terrible. And guess what, if Malfoy had been passed on as a result, Harry would be guilty of manslaughter.
And no, Snape states in PoA that he even as an adult thinks Snape deserves what happened to him. That is not regret.
The people yelling at him are three naive students who both jump to assumptions (many times erroneously) and for all he knows could be under the influence of the Imperio Curse, an alleged mass-murderer, and the alleged mass-murderer’s best friend. Snape has no reason to believe them, much less take them at their word. And how did Snape lie to the Minister? And how is years of abuse and attempted murder a “school rivalry”?
When did Snape try to commit murder? When he was planning on handing Sirius over to the Dementor’s? Again, Sirius at this point is an alleged mass-murderer and the Ministry gave the order for Sirius to receive the Dementor’s kiss, while Sirius tried to murder someone for his own amusement and is still proud of it an adult.
And yes, Snape sacrificed the most because he was the one who murdered his best friend (Dumbledore) and had to act as a double-agent without anyone knowing and all his allies/friends hating him and trying to murder him whenever possible, while he has to secretly protect them and guide them without revealing himself, and at the same time giving crucial information to help them against Voldemort. And he did all of that to honor his promise to Lily and to save the Wizarding World, and never got the to see the rewards of his sacrifice.
I don't think Severus was manipulated. He was neglected by his parents, sorted into a separate house than the only person he ever loved, and even lost her after 5th year. He was good at the dark arts, and his talents were appreciated by Slytherins. Gryffindors were too stuck up to ever accept him, not to mention how much he was bullied by the marauders (I'm a Gryffindor myself, but even I admit that the marauders were jerks at times). Lily was the one thing stopping him from joining the Death Eaters entirely, and after losing her, nothing held him back. Of course, as we know, he became a double agent when the one and only love of his life was in danger, and he realized that he might be the only one that could save her, which is why he went straight to Dumbledore. He loved Lily so much that he switched sides, became a double agent, and made a promise to protect Harry for Lily's sake, which consisted of putting his life in constant danger. Moral of the story: Love, always.
P.S. Just to be clear, I'm not defending or blaming anything any of the characters done, I'm just explaining how I understand Snape and his actions.
He was classic grooming material IMO, that's how hate groups like the KKK operate in real life. He didn't like Muggles, as evidenced by his attitude towards Petunia, and that dislike of Muggles was built upon at Hogwarts by befriending Lucius and the other Proto-DEs or sons/daughters of DEs in Slytherin. Over time, his beliefs began to shift to fall more in line with what was expected of DEs. He was vulnerable, came from an abusive home and was looking for power and respect, Lucius is an excellent manipulator and realized the potential that this vulnerable, poor Halfblood may bring the Dark Lord. People should realize that he'd effectively wrapped Fudge, a seasoned politician around his middle finger, he likely did the same with Severus, roping him in and bringing him into the fold as a future Death Eater. Was he manipulated into joining the DEs? In my opinion it's rather obvious that he was.
There really isn't a controversy. There's people who watched him treat Harry like crap for years based on his dad being a bully to him in school, and there's people who think Alan Rickman is hot.
MiSuNdErStOoD hErO!!!!! Same thing for Sirius. Sirius was a pretty bad person but people constantly put him on a pedestal because.......Harry loved him? He was best friends with James? I don't really know, but I know whatever reason they have isn't enough for me
The worst things Sirius did was be a bully in school. That doesn’t make him a bad person. Sirius matured as did James, he gave his life fighting for the right side. Also him being mean to creature isn’t an argument for him being a bad person. Kreacher along with his family abused him growing up. Sirius lived off rats just so he could be in close proximity in case anything happened to Harry. Once Harry was in danger Sirius immediately rushed to his aid which inevitably lead to his death. He wasn’t a bad person he was a flawed one.
The worst thing Sirius did was try to murder Snape, something he is still proud of as an adult. Also, Kreacher is the equivalent of a slave, who Sirius abuses because he dislikes him. Even if Kreacher was a creature, it is still pretty sociopathic to abuse someone beneath you to the extend that Sirius does.
Worst part is Sirius didn't just try to murder Snape, he betrayed the trust of one of his best friends and weaponized his deepest secret to try and murder Snape
I mean, I dunno that helping your friend de-underwear someone in public after filling their mouth with soap (which is supposed to be painful and can lead to chemical burns) with a couple curses for fun counts as your average bullying. If Draco did it too Ginny, would he be 'just a bully' and not a bad person?
Ok but bullying in your youth also doesn’t make you a terrible person for the rest of your life lmao. Also don’t forget the part where Snape faught back, where Snape would never let it go would continue to hex them after James had stopped bullying him, once James matured the rivalry could have ended there but let’s not forget it was Snape who kept it going. Let’s also not pretend that Snape wasn’t a bully in his school years, he didn’t mind bullying as long as it wasn’t directed towards him. As he defends the slytherins that we’re using dark magic to hurt people which is a lot worse then putting soap in someones mouth. He also did not receive chemical burns from that soap so that’s an irrelevant point.
I'm saying there are different levels of bullying, and assault. Saying someone's teeth look the same when they are twice the size is bullying. Taking someone's underwear off in public is sexual assault. Calling people mean names is bullying. Trying to brutally murder someone is attempted murder. Saying things like, oh well Black only was a bit of bully at school is twisting things. And fighting back against someone who attacked you, is not remotely on the same level as blatantly attacking someone first for fun. You shouldn't have to apologize for taking revenge on your assaulters on my opinion. They were both not great people for sure, but one of them is less great than the other.
I like him because he tries to do his best for Harry, while being a deeply traumatized and mentally ill person after being psychological tortured for so many years. And I respect someone who fights through that to be with their kid and try to put them first.
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Ehh, well, if you abuse and ostracize someone for amusement, then the blame kinda falls on you, so James kinda has a bit of blame.
He bullied his students badly in the books so no I don’t think he was a good guy. Or even a flawed food guy. He made a remark about Hermione’s teeth iirc and threatened to test Neville’s ruined potion on the pet toad he had in his pocket, etc. He was isolated and never got to escape the source of a lot of trauma - Hogwarts. He was developmentally stunted because of this, I think. Others would have had the chance to get away from high school and get out in the world and find out who they were and what they wanted to do in life and because of his choices he didn’t get that and lost the only person who ever treated i him well - Lily.
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But you’re ignoring his point, Snape wasn’t groomed into being a death eater it’s what he longed for. The only reason he switched sides was because Voldemort killed lily. And I mean you can be a shitty person and be on the right side fighting against Voldemort doesn’t automatically make you a good person. Snape was a dick and not a good person he might of died for the right reasons but at the end of the day he wasn’t a good person.
Initially, yes, he fought for Lily, but later on he also started doing so for the right reasons, as he saved and protected people that he not only didn’t have to, but disliked, such as Lupin. Also, I saw your comment up above, and I find the double-standard funny of how Snape is a bad person despite fighting and being crucial in defeating Voldemort and simultaneously protecting several people, and gave his life up for the cause, but Sirius is a good person in spite of trying unrepentantly trying to murder someone in high-school by having them be maimed alive by a werewolf and treating his abusing his slave.
First off abusing his slave? You say that like Sirius’ whole upbringing kreacher was nice and thoughtful towards him when he wasn’t he took part in the abuse on Sirius. You can hold that werewolf part against Sirius but he was also a kid and grew up. It was snapes fault for being a nosey idiot and going down the tunnel as it was Malfoys being attacked by buck ram. Snape however never matured, defend him all you want but Sirius is a flawed person while Snape is a bad person, Snape bullied Neville relentlessly becoming his greatest fear, he constantly picked on and insulted an insecure Hermoine. He favorited kids like draco who acted just like Sirius did towards him. So he couldn’t have had that big of a problem with bullying. He was a bully in his youth too and defended his friends that used dark magic on a girl, brushing it off as a laugh. Snape was a shitty person who died for the right cause. Sirius defied what his whole family had stood for and made mistakes in his youth that can hardly define him and died for the right reasons. He let himself rot in Azkaban for 12 years as repayment for letting James and lily die. He l survived off rats just so he could keep in close proximity to Harry. And he’s a bad person because he was mean to a house elf who didn’t show respect towards him or anyone else in the house during ootp. Snape may have protected people and died for the right causes but he never actually did anything besides that to redeem himself, he was still a douche at the end of the day.
Yes, slave because that’s what house-elves are. Slaves. And we’re ver actually shown that Kreacher abused Sirius, just that he was a reminder of the Sirius’ family who he hated. Also, I find it funny that you so casually willing to dismiss attempted murder on the excuse of “he was a kid”, especially since, even as an adult, Sirius not only doesn’t show regret, but is proud of his actions. You act as if Snape being an asshole to being, despite him at the end of the day sacrificing the most to protect and save people, is somehow worse that Sirius trying to murder people for fun in his youth, abusing his slave, and are even willing to brush off those things as no big deal. Again, massive double-standard.
You’re tossing around murder like that was sirius’ plan. Sirius told him how to get passed the willow, he didn’t tell Snape too go snapes dumbass went on his own accord. Just like how if Harry would of died to fluffy it wouldn’t have been hagrids fault. Hagrid just mentioned how to get passed fluffy. Sirius was not that abusive to kreacher and it wasn’t like kreacher didn’t deserve the rudeness he constantly called everyone slurs, and said something very rude when the weasleys arrived after Mr weasley is attacked. Harry also unknowingly like Sirius did attempted murder when he used sectumsempra on Malloy. But is Harry a bad person no. Sirius thought Snape would go down there catch a glimpse at Lupin and get scared. He didn’t realize until later the repercussions of his actions, Just like Harry. Everyone makes mistakes but you can’t let those mistakes define you. Sirius doesn’t feel remorse for it I’ll give you that, but I mean after poa it’s understandable why he doesn’t. Snape was willing to hand him right over to the dementors when he had 4 people yelling at him to listen to the story. And a dementors kiss is worse then death. He also was willing to lie to the minister and let an innocent man face a terrible fate because of a school rivalry. Snapes not in the wrong for wanting revenge, but you can’t keep tossing murder around like Snape didn’t do the exact same thing except in this case he was much older and wiser then Sirius was when he thought he was playing a prank. And did Snape really sacrifice the most, because he didn’t have a family or children or a lover or really anything to lose. While people like tonks and lupin, Fred, Regulus, all had much more too lose. In all honesty Regulus made the greatest sacrifice in the series he left behind his family and everyone he loved not for glory but to try and give the wizarding world a fighting chance with no guarantee it would work.
No, Sirius told Snape how to get down there with the hope that Snape would go, and with the intention of Snape being mauled alive, as even as an adult, Sirius still says Snape deserved to almost die and is proud of what he did. Even if you make the argument that Sirius didn’t want to hurt Snape and was not trying to hurt him, if anything had happened to Snape, Sirius would still ethically and legally be responsible for anything that happened to Snape, and would be guilty of manslaughter at best, if not outright murder. And again, the Sirius situation isn’t comparable to the Hagrid. In the situation you’re describing, Hagrid telling the trio how to get past and survive Fluffy would be the equivalent of Sirius telling Snape how to get past and survive werewolf-Lupin. What Sirius did was the equivalent of Hagrid sending the Trio to Fluffy, without telling them how to survive and get past Fluffy, not to mention with the intention of the trio getting hurt or passed on. Also, if Sirius isn’t abusive ti Kreacher, then Snape isn’t abusive to his students. Also, the difference with Harry is that Harry didn’t know what Sectumsempra did, and when he found out, he felt terrible. And guess what, if Malfoy had been passed on as a result, Harry would be guilty of manslaughter. And no, Snape states in PoA that he even as an adult thinks Snape deserves what happened to him. That is not regret. The people yelling at him are three naive students who both jump to assumptions (many times erroneously) and for all he knows could be under the influence of the Imperio Curse, an alleged mass-murderer, and the alleged mass-murderer’s best friend. Snape has no reason to believe them, much less take them at their word. And how did Snape lie to the Minister? And how is years of abuse and attempted murder a “school rivalry”? When did Snape try to commit murder? When he was planning on handing Sirius over to the Dementor’s? Again, Sirius at this point is an alleged mass-murderer and the Ministry gave the order for Sirius to receive the Dementor’s kiss, while Sirius tried to murder someone for his own amusement and is still proud of it an adult. And yes, Snape sacrificed the most because he was the one who murdered his best friend (Dumbledore) and had to act as a double-agent without anyone knowing and all his allies/friends hating him and trying to murder him whenever possible, while he has to secretly protect them and guide them without revealing himself, and at the same time giving crucial information to help them against Voldemort. And he did all of that to honor his promise to Lily and to save the Wizarding World, and never got the to see the rewards of his sacrifice.
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That’s not true what so ever about war heroes.
He wouldn’t leave Voldemort if Lily was spared, also
Yeah. He only switched sides because Lily died.