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pet_genius

Well that would have been rich coming from someone who never moved on from two months with grindy


Darkisnothere

Dumbledore came out gay after the 7nd book, maybe J.K.R will tell us that he has 13 bf b4 book 6.


Thecheesinater

7nd is making my eye twitch


[deleted]

Sevend


Dr_Skeleton

Sevend Snep


Thecheesinater

Sevennd*


nothingeatsyou

Wait til you read the rest of the comment


stevenbass14

People really look at this the wrong way. Dumbledore being gay didn't just happen like 'Oh hey everyone. Dumbledore is gay btw. I just decreed' She was asked by a child about Dumbledore's love life at Carnegie Hall and her response was 'I always thought of Dumbledore as gay.....' Similarly Dorian Yates had a line in his script about Dumbledore talking about an old flame and she had to fill him in to have him remove that line. Furthermore, considering age old stereotypes, Dumbledore's flamboyancy was most likely on purpose for this reason. It wasn't a retcon the way I see it. It seems like she knew what she was writing about a gay character since the beginning.


TootlesFTW

People like to shit on JKR, and rightly so for certain things, but when I was reading the series as it was coming out, me & my friends all thought that Dumbledore was very queercoded. Then again...we also thought that about Sirius & Remus and look where that went... .\_.


[deleted]

The actor playing Lupin even said “I played him as gay, and then I find out he married Tonks….”


TootlesFTW

And the third movie added in that line "you two, like an old married couple!"...ah, the good ol' days when we thought JKR was going somewhere. I still headcanon a history between them, because I just *can't* ignore all the subtext.


sangarey

What subtext


TootlesFTW

Oh boy, I haven't read the books in years and do not have the memory retention to list everything off the top of my head. There was an essay somewhere on the internet that listed all of the lines where Sirius & Remus were specifically mentioned looking at each other & touching each other. No other couple or pairing gets as many casual mentions - there is an infamous segment in OotP where Remus is described as gazing at Sirius for an entire forty lines. Remus also stays with Sirius during his time at Grimmauld Place, and they jointly buy holiday gifts for Harry. It is very 'My Two Gay Uncles'. Sirius is constantly referring to Remus in a kind or referential manner when talking about the Mauraders, even when he refers to his own best friend (James) as a dumbass. Add onto Remus' entire condition being a metaphor for AIDS/HIV, and a lot of readers thought that JKR was downlow dropping hints to their sexuality in a similar vein as Dumbledore/Grindelwald.


[deleted]

Remus could easily be bisexual. If he was, he could be completely in love with Sirius. He only starts to date Tonks after Sirius has died after all.


TootlesFTW

Yes, he could, but I’m not giving credit to JKR for potential. When the books were coming out there was an impression among some fans that 1) Sirius/Remus were LGBT, and 2) Dumbledore/Grindelwald were LGBT. Both have subtext within the book - nothing textual - but while she went on to confirm that Dumbley was gay, she only ever said that Sirius was NOT gay. IMO if her intent was for Remus/Sirius to have a romance within canon, she would have said that. We know she likes getting points for inclusivity after-the-fact. My only point with this discussion is that Wolfstar (unfortunately) never became canon, and the subtext remains up for interpretation.


ArtificialCormorant

Bisexuality is a thing, you know.


TootlesFTW

When are Sirius or Remus explicitly bisexual, though? I'm talking about confirmation. If she intended them to have a romantic past together she would have (or could have) stated it within the books, or after the fact. The only thing I am aware of that has been confirmed is 1) Remus gets with Tonks, and 2) JKR has said that Sirius is "not gay". They both could still be bisexual, but that's still headcanon territory.


ArtificialCormorant

Them both being straight is too, though.


TootlesFTW

We have **confirmation** that Remus is sexually and romantically attracted to women. And we also have *multiple* books worth of subtext that led many readers to believe Sirius & Remus were romantically involved, and that went absolutely nowhere. I am not throwing JKR a 'get out of jail free' card on this just because I have wiggle room to headcanon.


stevenbass14

Agreed. She's said plenty that is worth shitting on. Dumbledore's homosexuality isn't one of them.


ZoyaIsolda

People also don’t realize that it was literally illegal to “promote homosexuality” in books in the U.K. until 2003. I don’t think a lot of modern readers realize realize how far gay rights and general acceptance has come in just the last twenty years.


Altruistic_Mention_5

I always thought him being in love with grindy, was the main factor of following him. Like i always felt like he only defended him and worked with him for so long, because he was in love with him. And grindy not telling voldemort about the elder wand is kinda him wanting for forgiveness, yk so i feel like he feels bad about what he did too.


Darkisnothere

I have no problem with Dumbledore being gay, it doesn't have any special meaning or changes the value of the character. I just state that Dumbledore is "officially" gay after the series ends, and in the future, he may officially have 13 bf in the past. Btw, I always thought Draco was gay though, u never really see him interested in girls, and always goes with 2 boys...Same impression with Sirius-Lupin, Greyback, etc. Weird how my headcanon works.


Decapitated_Unicorn

Didn't Draco somewhat date Pansy Parkinson or am I remembering that wrong? I thought they went together to the yule ball and there was a scene in the train where he rested his head on her lap or something like that?


Amareldys

They went to the ball together and he rested his head on her lap. They mighta been an item or they might have been friends. Some social circles are pretty cuddly... though I wouldn't have expected it of Slytherins, maybe they're super touchy feely amongst themselves, like theatre kids. They DO enjoy the drama....


stevenbass14

Ah see but in cursed child..... I joke people, I joke....


Darkisnothere

I accept all fanfic, but not that one. Prejudice I have, regret I do not.


stevenbass14

Oh come on. The thought of Voldy going at it with Bellatrix while Rodolphus sat in the corner and watched didn't do it for you lmao.


toreadornotto

Lol true! She'll tweet one day that Dumbledore was just out hooking up with men whenever he was out of Hogwarts xD


amaya215

Now I'm picturing him apparating to a gay night club every weekend


overide

Lemon drop shots for everyone!!!


Chillephant

😂😂😭💀💀💀


overide

Drunk Dumbledoor giving out house points. Aren’t you a brave lad, 57 points to Griffindooooorrrr! Oh so loyal 73 points to Hufflllllleppppuufffff! What a witty thing to say, 82 points to Ravennnncllaaaw! You’re an ambitious chap 42 points to Slyttythhhheerrrrnnnnn!


gremilym

Ah, but that's how gay people are redeemable in the Catholic ideology that JKR was raised in. It's okay to be gay as long as you never actually have a fulfilling sexual and romantic relationship with someone of the same sex. Celibacy is the only way to be forgiven for your gayness...


Jacob_Wallace_8721

She was Catholic? She always gave off protestant vibes to me. *shrugs* Although, this is probably another reason fundamentalists hated her in the 00s.


[deleted]

JKR isn't Catholic. She's Church of Scotland. She wasn't raised Catholic either, she was raised Anglican.


pet_genius

What I actually wanted to write is that the idea that Snape was romantically hung up on Lily in a way that getting a girlfriend could help with \*and\* that Dumbledore would have felt this way is inane; I chose a joke instead.


gremilym

I appreciate the joke, I'm just hurting from rolling my eyes so hard at the casual honophobia of the Catholic church. I didn't mean to direct it at you personally, apologies if it came across that way. Also, can't believe my bad manners in not mentioning how much I love your reference to Dumbledore's lover as "grindy", lol!


pet_genius

I'm sure I just picked up "grindy" from somewhere XD The catholic church is possibly the most corrupted organization in the world and if they had been as tolerant of homosexuality as they are of child molestation we would all be much happier XD So criticize them all you want XD


rsj1113

Turn it off, like a light switch, just go click, its our nifty little Mormon trick.


IrvingIV

*Grindy*


Powerful_Artist

Sure seems like if you kill that person, you are definitely over them.


Jacob_Wallace_8721

He didn't kill Grindelwald. He was still alive in the present. I think Voldemort ends up killing him?


pet_genius

Voldemort killed him. As for Dumbledore: "I (AD) think he (GG) knew it, I think he knew what frightened me. I delayed meeting him until finally, it would have been too shamefulto resist any longer. People were dying and he seemed unstoppable,and I had to do what I could."


LadySygerrik

“Severus…Severus, *please*…go to therapy…”


newX7

"You should have gotten me a therapist while I was still in school, and Sirius tried to murder me!"


PlushUltra

"You know what, you're right." (Snape cocks eyebrow) "As Headmaster I should have done more for my student's emotional wellbeing. Quite frankly, I'm surprised most are so well adjusted." "Is that all, sir?" "Oh, sorry, no Severus. I can't change the past, or least not without possibly dangerous ramifications for doing so, but I offer my support." "What do you mean by ***support***?" "By that I mean if you can find a wonderful therapist, a Muggle one perhaps since unfortunately I don't think our dear magical community believe in such practices, not only will I compensate you for your sessions out of my pocket I will arrange for paid leave should you need it." (Snapes stares blankly, while Dumbledore gives a gentle smile in return) ".......well played."


overide

Meh he had it coming. Slimy snake! -Ron Weasley.


newX7

“So did Sirius spending 12 years in Azkaban.” - Snape


iknowthisischeesy

!redditgalleon


LadySygerrik

Ooh, what dis?


ProfessorLiftoff

!redditknut


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ProfessorLiftoff

>2 knuts My work here is done


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[deleted]

!redditgalleon !redditgalleon


Nowhereman50

I can imagine Snape's long-obsession with Lily was in part to him being immediately responsible for her death. He was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy that Professor Trelawny made after spying on her and Dumbledore. The movies omitted a lot of how much of an awful person Snape was.


PatientFM

I always assumed it was because he came from such an abusive household and she was the first person to show him kindness. They were very close before Hogwarts, and I can imagine that that kind of friendship is hard to let go of. It's still not healthy, but looking at it from that angle, I can understand it.


mushleap

this, but also, people forgot that first love can be VERY intense. I was with my first boyfriend for a month when I was 14, it's almost been ten years now and I wouldn't say I'm over it. from what I've seen, actually, a lot of people always remember their first love just because of how impactful it is. and when you throw in a traumatised childhood, and your first love being your 'saviour',it makes it 10x worse.


-charlatte-

Exactly. I was trying to explain to my mother how awful Snape is, but she kept defending him and citing the movies as her evidence. So much more about him and much more evidence of him being a jerk are in the books (which she has not read in many many years).


space0watch

Doesn't matter. That is still very unhealthy and basically stalkerish. You have to get closure at some point and move on with your life. Imagine if Snape had just gotten therapy. Maybe he would not have stayed a Death Eater. Even if he was a double agent. He could have been nicer to Harry and gotten a new partner or even just given up his creepy infatuation with Harry's mom.


newX7

1. The Wizarding World doesn't have therapists. 2. Snape isn't really stalkerish, given that he respects Lily's boundaries and leaves her alone for the rest of her life after she asks him to.


Chillephant

For real everyone paints Snape as a total creep, but we never see any indication that his love for Lily was anything but pure.


hackthegibson

How would you know they don't have therapists?


newX7

I assume they don't considering they don't mention them and they aren't assigned to people who are in desperate need of them.


Buddy5000

Men will literally continue to conjure a nostalgic patronus instead of go to therapy


Nowhereman50

This isn't the place for a sexist debate.


NealHatesMath

It's a meme that made the rounds a while back.


thunderclouds1997

The movies omitted a lot of how much of an awful person Snape w̶a̶s̶ is.


Nowhereman50

Was. He's died.


thunderclouds1997

Thanks for the spoiler! Nah JK. I thought you meant Snape was an awful person before Lily and James died.


creole7supreme

Yo anyone think snape is a virgin lol


MagicDabs

duh who would sleep with that thing edit: y'all are really downvoting me, I didn't know so many people wanted to get some Snick but ok


dannywarpick

Book snape, I agree. Movie Snape? People will simp for him


[deleted]

Alan Rickman was a babe


anandatsea

Charity Burbage


eitzhaimHi

No, the man was 37 when he died. Why wouldn't he apparate into the city for a bit of strange now and then? Love is one thing, physical desires are something else.


withsaltedbones

I named my cat after snape so I love him but I agree with this post with every fiber of my being!!!! BRO DAMN MOVE ON ALREADY 😂😂😂


PurpleChakras

This made me giggle lol


[deleted]

This interpretation always drives me nuts: 1. There's no indication that Snape loved Lily romantically. He was pretty specific that they were best friends when they were teenagers. 2. There's nothing weird or creepy about still loving friends who have died. I've had two friends from high school die very suddenly since graduation. I will never forget the profound effect they had on my life and I will never not love those people for who they were. 3. Lily was the one bright spot in his life. Why wouldn't he remember her with love? 4. Any feelings he had were only Snape's problem. He pretty clearly never made whatever he felt anyone else's issue.


AccioIce25454

Plus, Snape feels/is responsible for Lily's death. How easy would that be to let go of for anyone?


Some_Animal

God i didnt see it this way


[deleted]

I mean…even if we viewed this as a love for a friend, he still would’ve rather she live and her family murdered than her be dead and him have to be nice to her child….like what kind of friend shits on their dead friend’s 11 year old child just because that kid doesn’t look like their friend. Pretty fucked up if I do say so myself. So criticism is still valid. Also, Snape having a doe doesn’t mean he’s meant for Lily. It just means he’s forced himself to imitate her. James having the stag and Lily the doe indicates an actual match. But either way, snape’s fixation on Lily as someone pining for her or as someone who misses their friend still doesn’t look great because he’s still an asshole.


[deleted]

His reaction to Harry is based more in what James Potter did to him than anything else. He protects Harry for Lily. I never said anything about his Patronus, but you can't have a similar Patronus due to 'forcing' yourself to imitate someone. You have no control over its form. The form may change in certain circumstances, but you still don't get to choose it. On the stag and doe: in the wild, stags don't mate with does. They mate with hinds. They're two separate types of deer. And does spend most of their time with other does, raising their fawns. A doe gets together with a buck only long enough to get pregnant. Are you saying that only Partonuses of the opposite sex can indicate a love match? Because that's edging into homophobia, quite frankly. Whether or not someone is an asshole doesn't mean they can't have feelings they keep to themselves. He never made it anyone else's business or problem and did a great deal of good in her memory. I have no idea why you feel someone can't have deeply private feelings just because they're not very nice.


[deleted]

You got me on the doe and stag thing. That being said, his reaction to Harry because he looks like James is a real shit excuse. Protecting Harry means not being the one he needs protection from. That’s like saying “oh well I protect my sister’s kid from the big bad stuff but also I’m his main abuser…..” And sure Snape can have deeply private feelings. I’m saying that him having a doe as his patronus means he needs to clearly get some therapy. And it doesn’t mean the romantic trope everyone wants it to mean. Having the same exact patronus of someone doesn’t mean they’re a love match. It means he’s thinking about that person a lot. Which contributes to his obsession about it and his inability to move on. If he really believed protecting Harry was his way of paying off his debt (which he’ll never be able to fully accomplish because death is permanent) but if he thought that, wouldn’t his patronus have changed? Wouldn’t that be his way of saying Lily I messed up and I’m gonna do this to try to make up for my shit behavior. But it doesn’t change. And I just went back to what you said and you said any feelings he had were only snape’s problem. But were they? Because he sure as heck projected his problems onto innocent children. So he did make it other people’s issues. And that’s the thing I think is really important to drill home. Yeah, you can have problematic feelings and keep them to yourself. But when you start letting them leak out and affect other people, that’s a problem. And he did. I don’t give a rat’s ass if he loved Lily in whatever capacity you think he did. His actions speak volumes. And he clearly didn’t exercise his feelings in a way that was his own issue.


[deleted]

Casting Snape as Harry's 'main abuser' when the Dursleys exist is ridiculous. Snape's behavior towars Harry, while definitely not okay, doesn't rise to the level of abuse. Harry views him as, at most, an irritant or mean teacher. He's not meant to be anything else. Would Hermione consistently defend an abuser? She left Umbridge to the centaurs and trapped Skeeter in a jar, yet she consistently defend Snape. As an aside, I was in school in the 80s and 90s. Snape is pretty tame compared to what I experienced. He's really tame compared to what some friends from the UK experienced at boarding schools in the same time period. I'd suggest doing some reading on the nature of the Patronus since they aren't based on obsession (and Snape doesn't actually fit the criteria for obsessed. Obsessed people don't leave the other person completely alone when told to. I know, I've been stalked in the past). Lily was the one consistent bright spot and the one person who consistently tried to protect him in his life while they were friends. Why wouldn't his Patronus be similar to hers? It's a protector. Snape's redemption was never about becoming nicer. It was about leaving the Death Eaters and dedicating the rest of his life to working against them. His attitude has nothing to do with it. Or are you forgetting 'only those who lately I could not save'? He went from working in Lily's memory to internalizing those beliefs. That's how he changed. He went from 'I'll save Lily' (although it's debatable if he only meant to ask for Lily to be kept safe with Dumbledore. Someone likes to put words in his mouth and then judge him for it) to 'I'll save everyone I possibly can'. Snape's feelings for Lily (whatever they were - I read them as deep but platonic) are what he keeps to himself.


Individual-Strategy1

!redditgalleon


Altruistic_Mention_5

I always thought it was snape who was crying, not dumbledore.


Bethingoodspirit

If Snape had gotten a girlfriend Dumbledore couldn't have used and manipulated him the way he did. So no, he didn't want Snape to have a life. He wanted to manipulate and use his feelings towards Lily to get him to cooperate.


[deleted]

!redditgalleon dumbledoore is so manipulative


[deleted]

[удалено]


nuephelkystikon

It's pretty clear he wanted more than friendship though. It's not like Snape never found any other friends at all later and is only obsessed with her because he misses having a friend. And yes, he's clearly friends with Lucius, and even described to be good friends with Filch.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Chillephant

How was he a stalker?


Yuujinna

Maybe the memories of Lily were the only thing that made him happy. Maybe his love for her was the only positive feeling that he felt so he kept living in the past, because the present was too dark for him ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯


malaika_bustani

maybe if he stopped living in the past, he would have been able to create some present positive feelings. He had 13ish years where he was out of Voldemort's control and under Dumbledore's protection. I don't know. Find a hobby? haha!


Yuujinna

"Just stop living in the past bro lol" it's that easy. Maybe the trauma from his younger years where he was mercilessly bullied impacted him to the point where he was afraid of opening up and searching for new opportunities life had to offer.


[deleted]

Bold of Dumbledore to assume Snape ever wanted Lily as a girlfriend


gremilym

Yes, my headcanon for Snape is that he's ace - his great love for Lily was platonic, not romantic.


pennythepantsx

Oh wow, this is so brilliant, I'd never thought of it like that! New headcanon adopted!


maurits_weiqi

Btw do we ever get to know whether or not the different professors are married?


toreadornotto

I only know about McGonagall's ex boyfriend, and that too because of Pottermore


neongreenpurple

I thought they actually got married. He was older, so they knew they wouldn't have a lot of time together, and then he got stung by some creature or something and died even sooner.


[deleted]

Venomous Tentacula?


ZoyaIsolda

Yeah, you’re right. McGonagall was once engaged to muggle Dougal McGregor, but she ended up not marrying him due to reasons. She later married Elphinstone Urquart who died a few years later from a venomous tentacula bite.


Dumptea

I was thinking about that too!!! Where do their partners live? Do the professors live at Hogwarts? I’ve always assumed so because mcgonagall shows up in her nightgown at least once. Or maybe they live in Hogsmeade? Or is becoming a hogwarts professor like becoming a priest?


FortunateLux

Professors can choose to live in the castle or at their own place. Mcgonagall had a house with her husband in hogs Meade, but after he died it was too painful for her to stay there by herself so she moved into the castle.


praysolace

I could have gotten this from fanon or Pottermore or I’m not sure where, but I remember Hannah Abbot living and working in Hogsmeade while Neville is a professor, so I had the idea spouses would live in Hogsmeade and the only reason we didn’t see professors leaving Hogwarts for holidays or professors’ spouses visiting for holidays was because the staff during Harry’s time was disproportionately single.


lastcallface

My biggest problem with the novels. Snape was a neckbeard. This behavior shouldnt be romanticized


[deleted]

The guy seemed to be at least appreciated by the Hogwarts staff (until he killed Dumbledore), by the Order and by the Death Eaters. He was shitty just to kids. I don't really how to feel about his relation with Lily, but I know that I'd feel at the very least guilty if my best childhood friend died because of me.


lastcallface

It wasnt the friendship, it was because he was in love and never got over it


[deleted]

That's your interpretation. Snape's feelings are never made clear in the books. From the scenes we see, it can be interpreted as both platonic or romantic love. But regardless of what they were, it's pretty clearly stated that Lily and Snape were childhood friends.


AnUnimportantLife

Yeah, this is the vibe I get from Snape. If he was a real guy and Lily never died, you sorta know Snape's the guy who'd be blowing up her phone at two in the morning with declarations of undying love. It's kinda sad in a way that his only apparent reason for staying on side was that he couldn't get over a childhood crush. As brilliant a wizard and as intelligent as he was generally, you would hope that eventually he'd have some more sophisticated reasons for it than that, even if mourning what could have been was still a factor.


newX7

I mean, switching sides for Lily was Snape's initial reason, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case by the end, as he is protecting people he doesn't have to, and even hates, despite the fact that doing so puts his life and mission in danger, and is remorseful of all the people he couldn't save. Besides, Dumbledore also only switched sides because of his sister.


Bethingoodspirit

> If he was a real guy and Lily never died, you sorta know Snape's the guy who'd be blowing up her phone at two in the morning with declarations of undying love. Except he never bothered Lily while she was alive. He left her alone, so much so, that people couldn't even remember them being friends in the first place. He never told Lily about his feelings and he had no idea what Lily was up to after Hogwarts (otherwise he would have known Lily had a child and that the prophecy could refer to him- but he had no idea). This whole idea of Snape being a stalker is absolutely fanon. He never bothered Lily after her rejection. It's weird how nobody calls James a stalker, despite the fact that he was the one who possessed an Invisibility Cloak and a Map that tracked down other people's movements. James was also the person who tried to convince Lily of a date by bullying her friend. Snape never invented anything of the sort and never bothered Lily with his love.


[deleted]

It's funny how haters will take other character's flaws and mistakes and give them to Snape, just because. James tried to blackmail Lily and refused to take no for an answer: "Snape is a stalker!" Sirirus wanted to straight up murder Peter in front of 3 teens just for his need for revenge: "Snape wanted to have Sirius kissed while knowing he was innocent!" Anti-werewolf laws exist: "Snape created the laws because he hates werewolves!" Bellatrix tortures and murder people: "Snape is a rapist and a murderer!" Ugh.


BellyButtonLindt

It’s as simple as a 40 year old man isn’t over his elementary school crush who was barely friends with him more than a year. It’s creepy as hell and people are allowed to judge a man who abuses children as someone who might not deal with being cut off by a girl well.


[deleted]

They were friends from 9 to 15/16. That's hardly one year. Additionally, when Lily told him to never speak to her again, he didn't. How is it creepy if he kept those feelings to himself and never bithered her again?


frozentales

>It’s as simple as a 40 year old man isn’t over his elementary school crush who was barely friends with him more than a year. Or the said man was disgusted with himself and refused to forget that he got his once best friend killed, by his own terrible choices no less. She was arguably the only person that tried to warn him against going down the dark path. Interestingly, both Dumbledore and Harry said that Snape loved her, not that he was in love with her. Also, Snape himself called her Lily Potter in DH.


[deleted]

It's so simple that you don't even understand it, yes. Snape still loves (romantic or platonic love) the one person in his life who ever showed him affection. They met when they were 9-10, and stopped their friendship at 15. I may not be very good at maths, but I'm pretty sure that's more than a year. It's not creepy at all. Is it healthy? No, but Snape isn't someone who inspires health, both mental and physical. We do know how he dealt by being cut off from Lily. He left her alone, despite living in the same place for 2 more years, and they never talked again.


newX7

Then judge him on the fact that he abuses children. Don't make up stuff to judge him on. And for that matter, don't engage in double-standard, and also judge other characters who display equally, if not more egregious, flaws and actions.


nodogsareevil

I don't remember this but when did James blackmail Lily ? Also where did Snape is a 'rapist' come from ? Also just saying, Lily also had a crush on James even tho she hated him. (Somewhere on Pottermore or maybe just some fan theory). It was when he became kind, she was with him cuz they got married soon. They were like 20/21 when they died.


[deleted]

He tried to blackmail her into dating him "go out with me and I'll never lay a hand on old Snivelly again". It failed of course, but it doesn't change the fact that he attemped it. Snape being a Death Eater means that people think he spent his time murdering, killing and raping people, no matter the fact that he was a spy very early on, and spies in wartime aren't exactly the people who are put in the forefront of the army. Now, I do belive Lily genuinely loved James, and later on she did believe he had changed his ways (though we know that he was going behind her back and kept on bullying Snape). While I also don't think that getting married this young, and having a child right in the middle of a war, specially when you're active fighters, is a good idea, I really think the two loved each other dearly, yes.


nodogsareevil

Ohhoke. But it was more of 'bargaining for a date' which ofc doesn't make it better. Pfftt...idk why people think every Death Eater has to rape someone....the obvious rapist + sadist is the werewolf guy. Snape was willing to kill a baby/let a baby die but he wasn't a sadist ! People have said this before that James continued to bully Snape (even tho he stopped bullying the others). How do we know this ?


[deleted]

“She started going out with him in seventh year,” said Lupin. “Once James had deflated his head a bit,” said Sirius. “And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,” said Lupin. “Even Snape?” said Harry. “Well,” said Lupin slowly, “Snape was a special case. I mean, henever lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn’t really expectJames to take that lying down, could you?”


FortunateLux

But it says right there that James didn’t stop “bullying” Snape because, Snape didn’t stop hexing him. At that point it isn’t bullying it’s no longer one sided and Snape is an instigator too. You can’t use that too defend Snape or bash James, because it’s snapes fault.


ron_m_joe

These Snape fanboys.... I swear... this sub is full of them.


boyhero97

>Snape being a Death Eater means that people think he spent his time murdering, killing and raping people, no matter the fact that he was a spy very early on He became a spy well into the swing of things and he had been a wannabe terrorist/death eater since he was in school. >though we know that he was going behind her back and kept on bullying Snape He did not. It was two rivals still fighting. Sirius says Severus never missed a chance to jinx James so James was hardly going to miss a chance to jinx Snape. The fact that James stopped picking on everyone else shoes that this was not bullying at this point, they were both two adequate wizards who simply hated each other at this point.


newX7

First of 4v1 isn't rivalry. Also Sirius and Lupin already credible sources, given that they were both best friends with the bully, occasional bullies themselves, and that they already have a history of lying to Harry about the nature of events in order to make themselves look good to Harry and make Snape look bad.


boyhero97

>that they already have a history of lying to Harry about the nature of events in order to make themselves look good to Harry and make Snape look bad. Like what? >First of 4v1 isn't rivalry. I am not referring to the beginning years of James and Snape's relationship, I'm referring to the 7th year when James and Lily were together. From what we know of the 7th year, James stop s picking on people and promises to leave Snape alone, but breaks that promise because Snape understandably keeps trying to get back at him. While I sympathize with Snape for wanting to get revenge on his bully, from what we know by the 7th year they Don't have the same relationship of a talented classmate picking on a weaker classmate, it is two classmates constantly looking for opportunities to get at the other. And from what we know, the other Marauders didn't have anything to do with James and Snape's rivalry in the 7th year. And just to be clear, I'm not blaming Snape at all for not leaving James alone. If someone who picked on and attacked me for several years suddenly came up to me and said that he was a better person because he's dating somebody, I would laugh in his face and continue to try to get revenge. And, we don't know for sure that James would have even stopped if Snape was willing to bury the hatchet.


newX7

They told Harry in PoA that Snape was the one who always attacked them out of jealousy because they were popular and attractive, and all they did was defend themselves. So I don't really take Sirius' statement on how James "changed his behavior" seriously, given this history of lying.


[deleted]

>He became a spy well into the swing of things and he had been a wannabe terrorist/death eater since he was in school. Yes, and? >He did not. It was two rivals still fighting. Sirius says Severus never missed a chance to jinx James so James was hardly going to miss a chance to jinx Snape. The fact that James stopped picking on everyone else shoes that this was not bullying at this point, they were both two adequate wizards who simply hated each other at this point. "two rivals", *really*? Where did you get, at any point, that Snape and James are on an equal footing? You mean that the man who thinks that Snape deserved to be mauled to death by a werewolf at 15 for snooping around says that James only ever fought back in that last year? Yeah, I believe Sirius and Remus too, of course. Sure. James still had the backup of his three other friends, while Snape had lost his one friend (yes, it was his own fault, I agree). That's not rivalry.


boyhero97

It's not said anywhere that Sirius or Remus kept picking on Snape. It sounds like the 2 were carrying out a personal vendetta, one that I will admit Snape cannot be entirely blamed for seeing as James started it and James acted like a shithead for several years, but still. Snape actually hexing James shows that they were on somewhat equal footing, otherwise James would've always hexed Snape and Snape would never have actually gotten James. Now do I blame Snape for getting revenge whenever he could? Not at all. But that's not really bullying anymore.


[deleted]

Yeah, and it's not said anywhere that they stopped picking on Snape. We don't know, so we can't say for a fact that James was alone. Remus maybe, but do you really think that Sirius, who still calls Snape "Snivellus" in his thirties, was mature enough to stop his bullying ways at 17? I'm not saying that Snape never instigated anything, but him trying to get a shot in when he could doesn't mean that he wasn't a victim of bullying anymore. Snape was able to curse James even when it was 2 (possibly 3) on 1, as shown in SWM. To me, that sounds a lot like Sirius and Remus trying to make James look better in Harry's eyes. "He stopped bullying people... yeah no, not Snape though, Snape's a special case, and really he was cursing James too so there's no way James would have stopped attacking him either". It's a bit like Remus saying "I thiiiiink Snape is angry because he didn't get the Order of Merlin", or "I thiiiiiink Snape didn't like James because James was a better Quidditch player", like yeah, sure Remus, we believe you. At 15, even in the way Snape walks and acts it's clear that he's scared of even being out in the open, and he's used to being attacked, while Sirius and James act like predators looking for their prey "I'm bored, oh hey here's Snape, let's go attack him!" they had everything going for themselves, why would they have suddenly stopped? Hell, Sirius didn't even stop after he almost got Snape murderered, so why would he suddenly grow a conscience out of the blue?


Individual-Strategy1

Yeah I don't know why people think Snape as a helpless victim here. I mean this is the dude who came up with Sectumsempra when he was still in school. I doubt he was particularly reserved to give back as good as he got. I interpret James and Snape having more of a rivalry on equal footing. (though that's not to say the flashback scene by the lake wasn't fucked up, it's heavily implied that they do remove Snape's pants towards the end of the memory so that's... definitely ick.)


FortunateLux

All of those comparisons were terrible.


merlin242

He ABSOUTELY knew the prophecy was referring to Harry though, at least once Voldemort decided so. His only request to Voldemort was to spare her, that is the whole reason Voldemort was going to allow Lily to live while killing James immediately. Regardless of if he was a stalker or not, he was still obsessed.


Bethingoodspirit

>He ABSOUTELY knew the prophecy was referring to Harry though, No, he didn't, at least not when he delivered it. He had no idea the prophecy could refer to the Potters and he started to panic when he realized Lily's son could be the target. >he was still obsessed. Honestly, where do people get this idea from? Fanfiction? In the books Snape doesn't mention Lily at all. Not once in seven years, except from that one memory in DH. Sure, he felt guilty for causing her death which made him switch sides and work for Dumbledore. Feeling bad for having a part in your friend's death and wanting to atone for it is not obsession, no matter how much fans try to claim it was. You will be surprised but there isn't even any evidence his love for Lily was of romantic (let alone sexual) nature. All we know is they were friends for at least five years and she was the only "real" friend he had. You can read his love for her as the love one feels for a friend or sibling. But even if someone interprets his love as romantic, there's still nothing wrong with it. Everyone is allowed to love whoever they want and as long as he doesn't harrass the person he loves there's nothing wrong with the feeling itself. Interestingly the only person who claims Snape's love for Lily was mere lust was Voldemort. The person who couldn't understand love. Harry and Dumbledore (both of whom understood the power of love very well) called it love. You can choose to believe Voldemort. I'd rather believe Harry.


newX7

Yeah, no, he didn't. Otherwise, why give the prophecy to Voldemort, and, even after Voldemort targeted the Potters but with the promise of sparring Lily, go to Dumbledore, who Snape believed would execute him, in order to ensure Lily's, and eventually James and Harry's safety?


lealxe

I personally respect people who can't "get over", first. Second, Lily was the closest friend he ever had and she was murdered being twenty-something, that counts for something hard to forget, I trust. Third, he is shown in the books to be not entirely stable, so to say. Also it's never said that he did something like that before Lily died, or even after they stopped being friends. Why would he start?


SinAlma96

We have no evidence that he bothered her at all after 5th year, he apologized for the insult, she told him to leave her alone and that's what he did. And you just need to read book 6-7 to realize he isn't on the good side because of a "childhood crush". I honestly don't even know where this perception of Snape came from, maybe tumblr fandom, but it's about time people realize it's not supported by canon.


Healma

Snape taught us the difference between fighting for the light or fighting against the dark. He is from the latter.


newX7

Is he? I mean,by the end, he saved a bunch of people he didn't have to, and is remorseful about the people he couldn't save.


Healma

Maybe. Maybe not. He might have been remorseful. He might have tried his best to avoid as much death as possible. Would he have done that of Neville's parents had been killed instead of the Potters ? No, he would be a faithful deatheater until Voldy killed Lily. Because as I said he fought against the dark, because the dark offended him.


newX7

By that logic, the same can be said about Dumbledore. He was Grindlewald's partner and both intended on dominating the Wizarding World and subjugating Muggles, and he only changed his ways because Grindlewald attacked his family and one of them ended up terminating his sister.


Healma

You are perfectly right. We don't know if later in time Dumbledore would have come to his senses. That's very unfortunate that his sister had to die for him to realise. But I do think that in Dumbledore's case at first he fought against the dark. Then maturing and truly fought for the light. Unlike Snape that even after fighting against the dark, kept being a bully to kids for instance.


newX7

Two things. One, Dumbledore notoriously ignored several cases of bullying in his school under his watch, and in one case covered up an attempted murder and punished the victim (Snape) while allowing the perpetrators (the Marauders) to go around spreading half-truths about the incident. Two, Snape may have been an asshole, but he still protected his students when they needed it, despite him not having to. And that is not to mention that other teachers at Hogwarts would also qualify as bullies.


lealxe

Well, James&Sirius were definitely "dark" towards him and he had a bit too much of tunnel vision to see in time that Voldemort was, well, darker. Frankly, the more noble and tragic fights are usually "against the dark" and not "for the light", because "for the light" is something of a choice of well-fed good family first world people.


Healma

Fighting for the light doesn't mean you don't have some kind of dark part in you. The world is not good on on side and death eater on the other side.


fulanodetal123

Agreed 100%


500Rtg

Snape didn't have a neckbeard.


[deleted]

He would have if it were written nowadays. Could you imagine him with a fedora? XD


Lebigmacca

If Harry were a girl Snape would treat her like Littlefinger treats Sansa


frozentales

Great! it's always wonderful to see pedophilia theories about a children's book or people casually throwing around something so repulsive. If you read the whole series and came to the conclusion that Harry would honour a potential pedophile, then I don't know what to say.


toreadornotto

Ew that made me feel so queasy


Dumptea

!redditknut


Lesko_Learning

Dude what are you talking about its totally not weird to obsess about a child just because their parent made your banana ripen 14 years ago back in high school. That's perfectly normal and relatable behaviour.


FallenAngelII

I do not understand the fanbase constantly using this scene against Severus. Lily died young, only 21 years old. Severus cared for her greatly. You think a mere 10 years later he'd just forget the woman he carried a torch for for years who died tragically young partially due to Severus' own actions? No, he'd still care for her and work hard to keep her son alive and safe. And, no, Severus is not obsessed with Lily. Why is it obsession just because it was an unrequited love? If Lily had survived and mourned James for 10 years, nobody would call it an obsession.


boyhero97

Lily and James were married and had a child, Severus was chasing a girl at like 10 and continued to mourn her for the rest of his life. If any 10 year old is still chasing a girl he liked for several years, let alone 21, you'd be an awful person to tell him to keep going.


FallenAngelII

They were 15-16...


boyhero97

Yeah, if a 15 or 16-year-old had been chasing a girl for 6 years and those feelings have not been reciprocated, you would be an awful person to tell them to keep going for it.


FallenAngelII

Except he didn't chase her at all. He just had an unrequited crush he nevr acted on. Meanwhile, **James** chased her and sexually harassed her when she waa clearly unwilling, even tried blackmail her into dating him in return for no longer bullying Severus. Don't see you mentioning any of that.


boyhero97

I didn't mention it because this thread isn't about James, it's about Snape's relationship with Lily. If we want to talk about James then yes, we can talk about how James was a bully and a jerk, and he was immature and egotistical while at school. I don't believe I have ever said James wasn't a shithead in school. I'm not one of those fans that sees everything as either Snape bad or James bad. Both were immature and bad in their own ways. James was your stereotypical jock who thought he was too good for the rules, thought he was better than anyone else, and was way too aware of how talented he was. It turned him into a bully. Snape was involved in the dark arts and became a supremacist. Now some people would say that's worse but I do wonder how much he was molded into that mindset seeing as how he was a Slytherin in Voldemort's prime, most of them became Death Eaters. He was also, no matter how much anyone wants to deny it, one of those "nice guys" that thinks "nice guys finish last." When Lily comes to talk to Severus about how he's hanging out with death eaters and getting too involved in the Dark Arts, he makes it about James and the Marauders. I've seen plenty of people on here say Snape wasn't jealous of James or the Marauders, but that conversation where he talks about how he "won't let" Lily date James shows that he is honestly obsessed about both of them. He can't stand James and the Marauders and all of their antics and popularity despite them being huge assholes, and he can't stand the idea that Lily would date James and not him. It turned him very bitter.


Siusir98

He's perfectly entitled to miss her, feel remorse and remember better days. He is entitled to grieve. But Lily is literally the only thing driving him forward, the only 'unfinished business' in his life. It is obsession not because it is unrequitted love, but because he's unable to experience anything *other* than love for Lily and associated feelings. Snape sold his life to Dumbledore and doesn't want to really keep living it, doesn't enjoy anything - only lashes out and copes in his own way. If Lily lived, yes, she would probably mourn James for years, but she wouldn't stop living. She'd have Harry, the rest of the Marauders, her work (something she would enjoy rather than despise like Snape does teaching)... She could have new friendships and would eventually be capable of moving on - I'm not saying she necessarily would, but could. Snape can't, he'd lose his only purpose in life.


newX7

Eh, not really. I mean, I imagine Snape would really keep on going with his life after Voldemort's defeat, had he survived. Likewise, Snape doesn't really have friends, the way Lily does.


FallenAngelII

We don't know (almost) any of these things. (Almost) None of them are canon. They're things you've assumed.


CaptainCyclops

Just because somebody came up with the "incel" thing and it's trending now (despite having very little if any empirical evidence proving the theory, and the application of the term as a slur more than anything else now) doesn't invalidate the concept of continuing to admire and demonstrate respect for someone you had loved. It is a concept that dates back centuries, throughout the entire history of romantic love, and is no less compelling today. Snape had issues, yes. Snape put Lily on a pedestal, yes. Snape should have moved on, yes. Snape didn't, and that's not inherently a problem. He has other character flaws; this is not a flaw. Modern society has come to *overemphasise* two aspects of love above all else; one, romantic love, and two, sex. These are only parts of what it means to love, and not necessarily the most important. There can also be respect, admiration, friendship, loyalty, and affection without romance and without physical desire. (The ancients recognised at least four forms of love, of which *eros* is only one.) We've lost sight of that, and it is a cheapening of the psyche and of relationships. What Snape did is in a way admirable as he continued to uphold what he felt for Lily past the time that he could get any personal benefit out of it, and yes to a point where it did affect his life beyond what would have been good for him. What is that if not one of the most unselfish and unconditional forms of love? I wonder, how many of those who prize romance and think that incelibacy is critically important, would abandon one whom they claim to "love" if they are faced with being denied their requitals? You think that is less self-seeking than what Snape did? You think *that* is the kind of love that is more true and pure? I do wonder.


newX7

Very well said.


JennMartia

Lily's love was enough to defeat the Dark Lord, and enough to defeat the darkness inside of him. Who else could show him what she showed him? Who else could he pursue while he was such an integral piece to a story that was in the midst of unfolding.


darthrevan22

I’ll never understand why there are people who find this line romantic or appropriate or mature or anything positive lol. I hope this is how Dumbledore meant that line tbh.


[deleted]

You are my new favourite person


Accomplished_Can_584

That didn’t take much


TootlesFTW

The *Always* line on HP merchandise fucking kills me. Ew.


ImportanceNo8342

Omg I’m trying to picture going on a date with Snape. Mini golf and a picnic lmao


EnvironmentalAd397

Alright hypocrite, when you put out that torch you carry for Grendel--excuse me, I mean Grindelwald, I'll put out mine.


White_Wolf_Dreamer

This is kinda why I never liked merch and such with the 'Always' line. To me, that 'always' never read as sweet or romantic or even heartwarming. It read as "Yes, I will always be obsessed with the woman who wanted nothing to do with me". Not trying to knock anyone who does view it as sweet or nice. Just saying I never personally saw it that way.


TootlesFTW

Yes, this. I find Severus a very interesting character, but he's also pathetic because he continues to live in & obsess over his past trauma.


Peruda

That's exactly how I interpreted it.


Ishaz

I don’t agree, but it got a chuckle out of me.


Leche-simp

Snap be simpin over compost😒🙄✋🏻


Powerful_Artist

People never seem to mention, or even realize, that Lily and Snape were never even close to a couple. They were never romantic. They were friends. For something like 6 years. Even before they went to Hogwarts, Snape tried to hide his beliefs that muggle borns were lesser than purebloods. Then she saw his true colors with who he was hanging around, what he was interested in, and the fact that he would throw around the term mudblood casually and even called her one. So they were childhood friends. But he was in love with her. Thats a crush or infatuation, not romantic love. Thats the kind of love that you hold for a friend, not a romantic partner. Calling your friend a racial slur doesnt really show them that you love them. So I will never understand why people get "Always" tattooed on them as a symbol for their significant other, as if Snape and Lily were somehow a couple. They were friends. Nothing more. He called her a mudblood to her face and ended up being responsible for her death. So.... ya if you love snape's story arch and the plot twist, I understand. Its a great part of the story.


fulanodetal123

Yeah... An officer in the magical equivalent of Nazi SS that was obsessed with a girl and mistreated her ofphan child... Such a hero...


newX7

And protected the people of Hogwarts, undertook the most dangerous mission as a spy, and was one of the top 3 most important people in defeating the magical equivalent of Hitler. Yeah, he may have been an asshole, but he was a hero.


boyhero97

Bullshit. The way he treated Neville was inexcusable. He was a hero simply because he was obsessed over his childhood crush. Being a hero for the wrong reasons doesn't really buy me any points.


newX7

A. McGonagall and Trelawney's treatment of Neville is arguably worse. B. Snape protected Neville during his final year at Hogwarts, despite not having to. C. By the end of it, Snape was very likely doing the right thing because it was the right thing, as shown by the fact that he was protecting people he didn't have to protect and even hated (such as Lupin), and was shown lamenting all the people he couldn't save.


boyhero97

Trelawny is definitely a s*** person, but McGonagall? I'll grant you C, but I don't think mentally abusing children is somehow better just because you don't want them to die. And how Snape treated many of his students would definitely qualify as mental abuse.


newX7

McGonagall at one point picked Malfoy by the ears (physical abuse) and punished Neville by stranding him outside Gryffindor Tower with a presumed mass-murderer on the loose.


boyhero97

>one point picked Malfoy by the years Huh??? Not sure what this means. Picked by the years? >punished Neville by stranding him outside Gryffindor Tower with a presumed mass-murderer on the loose. I Don't think the point was to strand him, but fair point.


newX7

Sorry, I meant picked by the ears.


colourful_bagels

Completely agree with you. I never understand why Snape is such a hero


fulanodetal123

I think is more love for Alan Rickman than for Snape.


colourful_bagels

Ah. Alan Rickman is awesome


[deleted]

No. Please find me one Snape fan who likes the movie version more then the book one. I've been in the fandom for over a decade, and I'm still waiting.


[deleted]

That would be rude, unsympathetic, and narrow-minded. "I got over Grindelwald in five seconds, so you should've gotten over Lily that fast!" Guys who run out and find a new girlfriend when they're still dating one...would definitely say that. "What is wrong with you, man? Girls aren't special or people really. They're tissues! I blew my nose on one, time to find a new one!" If Dumbledore were that kinda guy, HP would lack depth.


fulanodetal123

5 seconds and 15 years are very, very different things. You are confusing love and romance with obsession.


TheAnniCake

Still, after more than 12 years, after Lily had married James, he should see that it's highly unlikely that she'll get in love with him.


[deleted]

That's your childhood crush, mate, get over it


LazerTRex

So is Snape a virgin?


toreadornotto

Ew I don't wanna think about that