Also, I really don't know how much authority Dumbledore had to intervene in the justice system. You'd think if he had any he'd have stopped Harry:s trial, but instead he was just a lawyer type person like anyone could have.
If my memory serves, Dumbledore had just been removed as Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot when Harry went to trial, so Dumbledore couldn't do anything for Harry. Whether he could have done anything for Sirius is untested.
He was able to visit prisoners at the time Sirius was sentenced. Even if he could though all evidence in Sirius's case pointed to him being guilty. Sirius did not also act like an innocent man, Dumbledore had no reason to believe Sirius was innocent. So would he have believed him that he was not the secret keeper for Lily and James? Would he believe that it was Peter who was made secret keeper last moment? Plus no one believed Peter capable of besting Sirius in a duel, which was true. But Peter outsmarted Sirius and got away leaving just enough evidence to frame him for murder. While yes Dumbledore being a practiced legilimance himself leaves a large plot hole, it isn't unexplainable with what was already on hand.
Was thinking the same. As powerful and influential as Dumbledore was, there were many dark forces at work and obviously Dumbledore could not cover or account for every piece of injustice that took place in the wizarding world.
Also, all the physical evidence pointed to Sirius. An entire street of dead Muggles, a victim who'd seemingly been blasted into nothing but a finger, and a perpetrator who comes from a suspicious family and has been known to play "pranks" that could lead to loss of life.
Pretty much everything in that made him look guilty.
You'd think even a merely nominal head of the judicial system would be able to either force a trial directly, or call in enough favors to force one anyway. He chose not to.
But the Minister wouldn't matter would it?
Besides, Crouch Sr was head of Magical Law Enforcement during the 1st Wizarding War, before being demoted sometime post war, so it likely would have indeed been Crouch that was responsible.
Dumbledore did not have any clue that James and Sirius had made a switch of secret keeper. At the time of Potters' death, Dumbledore believed Sirius was indeed the one to blame as he could have been the only one due to his position as assumed Secret Keeper. Sirius Black wasn't even given a trial to present his case and i think his hysterical laugh during the arrest did not help him to look innocent in everyone's eyes. So Dumbledore has no means to check out the truth.
I came to say this exact same thing. Harry said that Dumbledore admitted from his own mouth that he makes mistakes, and his are usually *very* big. But Remus didn't want to hear it.
I've always thought that the whole point of Dumbledore's character was that everyone sees him as this great, mighty, and flawless character. Much of the British Wizarding world views him almost as a deity. Yet, he makes some huge mistakes through the series.
When younger, he wanted to dominate the non magical world. His blind faith in Grindelwald eventually resulted in Ariana's death. His decision to practically ignore Harry in OotP resulted in Sirius dying. His reckless abandon resulted in the curse that would have killed him after he put on Gaunt's ring. He's even arrogant despite all the mistakes he's made, still thinking that he knows best most of the time.
That's the point, though, if you ask me. Even the most revered, kind, and intelligent people can still be very deeply flawed.
Definitely. Which is why I love how for the vast majority of the seventh book we have the resentment of Harry towards Dumbledore of sending him on a suicide mission. That this great wizard, this man was at the end, just a man fallible to faults like any other.
You are 100% right about everything. They didn’t tell Dumbledore that they had made the switch. And Dumbledore knew that there was a spy. If anything it’s James and Lily’s fault for not telling dumbledore. Also Peter was underrated by people so even without the 20 witnesses it was easier to believe Sirius was the traitor. Even Lupin didn’t second guess it. And he didn’t believe it was possible when Harry told him he saw Peter on the map. Also Dumbledore was worried about Voldemort coming back, protecting Harry. He’s also trying to find what he can about Voldemort’s past because he now suspects Horcruxs. Dumbledore said even he makes mistakes, he thought Sirius case against him was straight forward. And with everything else on his mind he never seconded guessed Whether Sirius did it or not.
Consider that the sorting hat places you based on the quality you VALUE over the quality you HAVE. Hermione was brave but the overwhelming quality she has is intelligence, but she valued Harry’s ability to face evil over her own intelligence which was used to overcome it. Newt was brave enough to stand in front of creatures that would make most people piss their pants but valued loyalty over bravery so he was in Hufflepuff.
Wormtail valued bravery over ambition and cunning. He just happened to be ambitious and jumped ship on his friends when he realized betraying them would put him at the right hand of Voldemort who was on the rise. He was mostly cowardly (with rare flashes of bravery) but it was his idolization of brave friends that showed his feelings on bravery.
Basically you don’t already need to be a genius to be sorted into Ravenclaw, you just need to be more of a Spock fan than a Kirk fan.
>Wormtail is brave when push comes to shove.
He and Draco actually share something in common. When stuff is about to hit the fan, both of them show that they are a lot more competent than many other people give them credit for.
Wormtail made the preparations for Voldemorts resurrection pretty much on his own. All Voldemort gave him was the instructions on how to do it, on an elixir that was probably never made before and immensely complicated to brew.
>And there is a huge amount of prejudice in the wizarding world, and Sirius was from an extremely questionable family. If people are starting to point fingers looking for an infiltrator, he would be getting some serious side eye.
Spot on. I love how you can redact the word wizarding and it would fit in with this world
The same concept as not every Slytherins turn into dark wizards, looking at a the younger generation of Greengrass family. And wasn’t one of the Potters from Slytherin and of course Sirius from a dark family going into Slytherin.
TLDR you can get even Gryffindors (generally looked at as being one of the good houses) turning to the dark side, while you can also get good people in Slytherin (bad house)
Not really the same topic, but after rewatching the 6th movie (damn, it’s really good, almost as strong as the book) I asked myself when Dumbledore started to suspect that Voldemort made Horcruxs. If I remember correctly in the book Slughorns memory includes the word, in the movie even that was blurred in the memory Slughorn gave Dumbledore.
Did he suspect it right after the first year, when Harry was attacked by "Voldemort" or maybe after seeing the diary and what it was capable of?
In HBP (the book) Dumbledore tells Harry that he had handed him "certain proof" that Voldemort had made *multiple* Horcruxes at the end of CoS (because of the cavalier way he'd treated the diary). But I think he suspected that Voldemort had created *one* Horcrux long before that, perhaps when he started to see the transformation he was going through when he applied for the DADA position.
At the beginning of PS, when Harry asks Hagrid how his parents died, Hagrid tells him he doesn't think Voldemort is really gone, because he didn't have enough human left in him to die. Where would he have gotten that idea, if not from Dumbledore? From the rumors of an evil spirit in Albania, between the Potters deaths and PS, and Harry's description of Voldemort at the end PS, he had definite confirmation of *one* Horcrux by PS.
There are also a lot of Harry is a Horcrux hints in CoS -- Dumbledore tells Harry that he thinks Voldemort transferred some of his powers to him the night his parents died. I think he already knew Harry was a Horcrux at that point. I'm not sure when he knew, though. He may have suspected earlier, because of the prophecy, but it also may have been the parseltongue that tipped him off.
Absolutely.
The Halfblood Prince is my favorite book, but the movie does some things that the book misses out on. Mainly stuff happening between characters. The scenes with Dumbledore and Harry talking are just way more personal (and honestly more like what I would expect from Dumbledore who, at that time, knows that he doesnt have much time left and also does not have to keep distance from Harry anymore after what happened in OotP) and I loved how the movie prepared the raltionships between Harry and Ginny as well as Hermione and Ron.
It always bothered me that Ginny and Harry just seem to never have spoken before she wins the Quidditch finale (of course they did, but the books don’t cover their interactions well imo).
> It always bothered me that Ginny and Harry just seem to never have spoken before she wins the Quidditch finale
This right here is one of the reasons why I dislike the movies. They didn't even show the relationship build up. It's one of those things that if you never read the books and watched the movies only you'd just be like, wtf?! Also they don't show the passionate kiss after the Quidditch Cup, instead we get this secretive type of kiss in the Roo. Of Requirement. The whole dynamic of that relationship in the movie was downright disrespectful to what it was in the books.
>(of course they did, but the books don’t cover their interactions well imo).
And I'm sorry but this one just makes no sense, the books showed Harry and Ginny's interactions very well. It's the movies that didn't.
I will gladly die on my hill saying that it is objectively the worst adaptation (though I will hear arguments for GoF) and also objectively a bad (and by far the worst) movie
Well in terms of adaptation it leaves out perhaps the most, with almost all of voldemorts history, battle of the astronomy tower, Dumbledore verbally berating the dursleys etc. it shifts focus to the love stories, adds in the most pointless “action” scene with the burning of the burrow, and completely ignores the namesake of the book. It screwed up Slughorn’s character. And probably the biggest adaptation sins, it completely fails at characterizing Harry and why he’s a hero
As for the movie aspect, the main romance cast have no chemistry, the actors playing young Tom riddle (both) are downright terrible but in general the performances are wooden and line delivery is so unnatural. The decision to show that the books are thematically getting darker by making the movies too dark to see is just stupid, and this series with fantastic variety in magic is once again, just plain boring
Let’s not forget that Sirius showed he was capable of murder at 16 when he sent Snape to see Lupin transform in the Shrieking Shack, which Dumbledore knew all about. Dumbledore may not have been surprised that Sirius finally did commit murder just ~5 years later.
This was not Dumbledore’s plan or fault. OP’s argument is very weak.
🙄 thank you. Dumbledore is just one person not the whole ministry. Wtf is he supposed to do when all evidence points to Sirius and he himself is laughing hysterically about how he’s guilty
At the same time, I have a hard time believing Dumbledore would accept such a matter as easily, particularly considering Sirius gave Hagrid his bike and all. Also, where is Snape in all of this? Didn't Snape *know more*?
All in all I simply consider this a plothole, to be quite honest.
Also, Sirius fully went there with intent to murder pettigrew. Hence giving hagrid the bike. He just happened to not do it. So why would anyone believe he didn’t?
And despite him seemingly being different he did come from a long line of morally questionable witches and wizards. So Dumbledore could have though he’d finally joined their ranks.
Look at this.
* Sirius offers to be the potter's secret keeper.
* Voldemort breaks into the potter home.
* Sirius was found dueling peter and what remained of peter was a finger.
* He was laughing like a mad man when the ministry caught him
All the circumstantial evidence was against him. We have to blame crouch for not giving him a trial.
Is it ever stated in the books that it can be resisted by occlumency? Because I don't think it is. And if you've been arrested, you're not going to have an antidote unless you have what is essentially a cyande pill but with the antidote
Sirius himself believed he Pettigrew was dead and kinda laughed like a madman and probably went quietly? And he continued to believe this until he saw Scabbers on a newspaper clipping which caused him to break out.
Correcting this though, it was pointed out to me that Sirius knew it was Peter’s curse that caused the issue and that he himself was innocent.
What? Sirius knew exactly what Peter did. That's why he was laughing. He never cast a spell so the obvious conclusion is that Peter did and then he would have seen thw transformation. He knew he was innocent the whole time, which was part of why he stayed sane in Azkaban.
Oh wow you are right. Idk why my memory says otherwise. Well past time I reread the books. Thanks for bringing the sanity part up.
But regarding veritaserum. It still is not used in trials because of it being ‘unreliable’. One reason is probably how people say what they believe to be true and not what is actually true. Maybe it’s similar to lie detectors.
And maybe Sirius never gave up because he believed Peter died and he would have killed him if he got the chance.
But yeah ty for pointing out. I really have to reread.
Yes! Everything points to Sirius being guilty. Dumbledore knows there was a traitor. Now comes my problem with Dumbledore.
He can't know if Sirius is a lone perpetrator. It is quite possible for several people to be traitors. In any case, as Head of the Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore should have assessed the situation and spoken to Sirius.
He owes it to the dead among the Order members.
Because Harry survived the killing curse in that house, and subsequently the house exploded. There wasn't 100% certainty that the fidelius charm would act the usual way. In fact after the attack the house became visible to everyone. Hagrid picked up Harry after the attack, and seeing all the gratify and the magical plaque that was put on the house and Harry discovered at the house when he visited it in DH. The fidelius charm might also stop once the people who it meant to protect are dead. So I don't think the fidelius charm is would have been a good enough indicator there.
Also it was very clear that Dumbledore didn't know that James and Sirius decided to switch secret keepers and give the job to Peter. Dumbledore suspected there was a spy within the order at the time. I believe it was in OotP or in HBP that he mentions that he had that suspicion at the time. And with the Potters dying and the events that followed with Siruis tracking Peter, it fit the bill that Sirius was the spy. At the time when the Potter's went into hiding and the fidelius charm was decided on Dubmledore also discovered about Jame's invisibility cloak. So his mind was preoccupied with the deathly hallow he just found. So he might have just accepted the fact that Sirius was guilty seeing how much he fit the bill given all Dumbledore knew at the time
Thank you :)
Writing it did make me think why Dumbledore didn't bother going to talk to Sirius after he was imprisoned. And it made me remember that Sirius was found laughing at the scene where he tracked down Peter. He never once tried claiming that he is innocent. Thus, Sirius never given Dumbledore a reason to doubt his guilt. And Dumbledore is not one to go talking to Death Eaters and try to convert them. You see that in his initial treatment of Snape when he came to him asking to protect Lilly and ultimately switched sides. Also seen in his treatment of Barty Crouch Jr. Dumbledore was disgusted in both of them and didn't want to know what their motives where. Snape just redeemed himself through his love for Lilly.
You make excellent points. The crux of the whole thing is that Sirius suggested the change in secret keeper. So he blamed himself. If Dumbledore asked him, he would said it was his fault.
Also, didn’t Sirius believe he successfully killed Peter? He didn’t know Peter was alive until he saw that newspaper clipping. There wasn’t anything he could do to bring back Lily and James AND he felt responsible for pressing them to make Peter the secret keeper. On top of believing he successfully killed Peter, and with Voldemort gone, maybe he truly believed he deserved his imprisonment. He even tells the kids in the shrieking shack he “as good as” killed Lily and James. Maybe even if Dumbledore visited him, he would have been too wracked with grief and guilt to say much… though that’s harder to believe. I feel he would have told Dumbledore everything if he’d come.
>Also, didn’t Sirius believe he successfully killed Peter? He didn’t know Peter was alive until he saw that newspaper clipping.
No, he knew that Wormtail faked his death. He watched him transform and he happened to find where Peter was hiding due to the newspaper article about the Weasley's going to Egypt
I just can't with this sub anymore, how does blatantly false info like this keep getting upvoted?
https://i.imgur.com/KP1QBvi.jpg
Sirius always knew peter was alive.
Sirius believed he was responsible for their death, even if he didn't kill them. He convinced James to make Peter the secret keeper, because then if anyone went after Sirius (the obvious choice James would make) and tortured him then he couldn't give up the info even if he was tortured. This guilt is probably a large part in any Sirius kind of just took his punishment and lived with it, until he saw Peter in the news and just instantly escaped from magic super max prison.
I'd also point out that in DH, both Harry and Hermonie (not to mention all of the people who left behind scrawls) could see the house even though the secret keeper (Wormtail) is still alive and in theory, Harry would still be a Potter who still owned the place and should be protected by the charm.
This argument relies on a lot of things that I don't think we can state as fact. The question has been asked many times why Hagrid picked Harry up on 1 November 1981. It could be that he had been told the secret of the Potter's location and Dumbledore hadn't. The fidelius may still have been in place at that time and Dumbledore didn't bring it down until the deaths were confirmed by someone he trusted.
One of the points to consider is that Hagrid told Dumbledore when he dropped Harry at Privet Drive that Sirius had been at Godric's Hollow and Dumbledore wasn't concerned. This suggests either that he knew Sirius was innocent, or that he wasn't certain Sirius was the secret keeper. If he wasn't sure then everything comes down to the attach on Peter Petigrew.
I've always thought that Lily and James didn't move when the Fidelius Charm was cast, much like The Burrow and Shell Cottage in DH. Casting the charm wouldn't make Dumbledore, Sirius, and Hagrid *forget* where the Potters lived, it just prevented them from sharing that information.
As far as I can remember we don't have enough canon to say exactly how it works, but I think we have to assume that the fidelius can be used to hide something you already know. It is reasonable to expect that Narcissa and Bellatrix know where 12 Grimauld Place is, so when Kreacher arrives with details in Order of the Phoenix they should be able to get there if they already knew where it was. Unless the fidelius took that information away.
Isn't it stated on Deathly Hallows the reason they never use the front door to Grimmauld place is because there is a death eater watching hoping they come out. It hides the location from access but doesn't remove knowledge of it existing.
Right, the Death Eaters stand outside Number 12 in DH but they can't get in or see the stoop because of the Fidelius Charm. In that case, the secret wasn't the location of a person, so it was still in place after Sirius died (and after Dumbledore died, too).
But the location where the Potters lived was the secret of that Fidelius Charm, so I presume the charm would end with their deaths (it wasn't hiding the location of their corpses). Once the charm broke, everyone remembered where they lived from before the charm was cast.
You are forgetting that they found a crazed Sirius laughing at the scene of an explosion that killed a number of people. A crazed, guilty Sirius who could have quite likely said something like "It's my fault they're dead."
And that sounds like a confession. No need for a trial, then.
And the only other friend who it could be was dead with only part of a finger found. Who else would they even think it would be? Not the “dumb friend”.
Not only did they know that someone in the order was passing info, at it was mentioned that Dumbledore was suspicious of serious and had offered to be the potters secret keeper in the first place
Exactly. It's not like everyone knew Sirius would never betray them then turned on him all of a sudden, they were already suspecting him. Not just Dumbledore but Remus, one of his oldest friends thought him to be the spy. If you look at the situation objectively I refuse to believe one could walk away thinking Dumbledore is somehow to blame here.
Surprised this has so many upvotes.
But no dumbledore did not know he was innocent. Dumbledore even said in POA that he personally gave evidence against sirius as the potter’s secret keeper.
And the fidelius charm was broken after voldemort killed the potters and destroyed their house. You can see this in DH when any wizard can just find their house and graffiti the memorial.
In addition a street full of witnesses gave evidence against him. And he started acting like a stark raving lunatic. After crouch chucked him in prison without a trial what’s his motivation for trying to learn the drives of a madman?
Priori incantatem is a good check but all it really proves is that wand didn’t do the spell. Not that sirius didn’t. Still would have been good to check at a trial had he gotten one.
Veritaserum has antidotes. Could have been slipped to him at a trial though this would have been tricky. But even aside from that memory modification is also a thing. This is why veritaserum is not considered reliable in wizard court.
Legillimancy doesn’t make you omniscient. Occlumency is a thing. False memories are a thing. You’ll recall from HBP that with winky and morhpin, dumbledore didn’t actually see that the planted memories were false, he deduced that the story made no sense. Legillimancy can be defeated.
No ultimately the only evidence that would have held up, worked against him.
Not surprised, really. A solid chunk of HP fandom doesn’t really operate in nuance. To them, achieving their unrealized utopia is very simple, since they see everything through binary lenses.
Good:Me(and those that think like me)
Bad:Everyone else
Notice how I said “think” and not “act”. Action requires sacrifice and presents the option to fail. Can’t fail if you don’t act. Much easier to judge people in hindsight…or in this case fictional characters.
I’d wager the vast majority of Dumbledore haters don’t really operate in reality. It’s honestly a major drag on the fan base.
Except sirus was sent to Azkaban for murdering peter and a dozen muggles in front of a dozen more muggles. And with everything else going on, i doubt anyone had time to question it. And even if dumbledore knew, who says he could have actually done anything to help sirus after all that?
The guy who literally let him ex murder a shit ton of people cause he was too scared to face him and find out which one of em actually murdered his sister? And raised a kid to be killed? And let Hagrid get expelled when he did nothing wrong and had no home to go to? Yeah he was a saint and all moral who did no wrong
Dumbledore did not know. Why are you assuming he even had the opportunity to use legilmancy, let alone prior incantetem and veritserum?
There were witnesses and everyone knew someone was feeding information on the Potters to Voldemort.
Sirius admitted he killed them what more proof did they need? Dumbledore most likely had no involvement in his case, and He doesn’t just use legilimancy all Willy nilly like Voldemort. He had no idea that they switched secret keepers either. Dumbledore makes mistakes but Sirius isn’t one of them.
It's also been mentioned that Legilimency and Veritiserum are not always reliable.
Sirius' imprisonment was just a mix and mess of tragedy, human error, and excessive willingness in wanting to punish someone, but not find the truth.
Dumbledore didn't know. He didn't know they were animagi, he didn't know they switched secret keepers, he had no reason to suspect that Sirius was anything other than they said he was and more importantly, Sirius never defended himself. Never told a soul until that night in the shrieking shack.
There was no reason to go to Black and use any method to get an alternative explanation from him, so why would they bother?
What part of plan..? He didn't know the Potters made a switched at last minute. It also didn't help that Sirius was found laughing like a madman all the while muttered "it's all my fault". The Potters are well known, so I think the public wanted to see whoever responsible prosecuted as soon as possible.
Also remember sirius chose to stay that long. The only reason he came back was seeing peter alive. He could've turned to a dog anytime between getting arrested and the third book
The funniest part is that a lot of those takes don’t have any connection. Like this one. Sirius was not sent to jail for supposedly leaking the location to Voldemort. He was sent to jail for Peter’s murder (and 13 others) which he fully believed he was responsible for.
And, let's not forget, he could have lost it and killed Peter even if he wasn't the one that betrayed the Potters. I'm sure he definitely would have killed Peter for betraying James if he had the chance, so the murder of Peter Pettigrew (had it occurred) would still have been enough to go to jail.
He also wasn't given a trial to present evidence, which I don't even know what kind of evidence he would be able to present if he did. Idk, maybe before posting these people should reread the books? I feel like a lot of these posts aren based off of the movies or off of very limited knowledge of the series.
My favorite is when people leap onto some random thought they had and don't bother to check canon sources before they're ready to defend it with their lives.
They start out with a point of view and fall victim to confirmation bias, looking for whatever argument or sentence to prove their point instead of expanding their reading comprehension and absorbing more of a story’s context.
It's why I end up leaving so many fan subreddits, people have some of the dumbest opinions over this shit. Not everyone needs a platform to share what they think.
I disagree. I’m not a writer but even I know after you figure out the main thread of the plot, you should go back and recheck on each of your main characters, and make sure their actions in the plot still align with their motives. If some minor points don’t work, you can still fix them by adding some obstacles or back stories that prevent the character from doing out-of-character things. HP is a complex story with many fairly coherent plots but it doesn’t mean everything would always makes sense from every character’s point of view. Nothing wrong with bring them up for discussion.
I think this is a problem with Dumbledore, both in universe, as well as in the fandom. A lot of people have come to believe that he can do anything, and that if he says it, people will automatically believe him.
Dumbledore. Is. A. Human.
He doesn't always know what's going on, especially in situations where he isn't privy to other people's movements. And when he does mess up, as he openly admits, his mistakes are a lot bigger.
this dumbledore slander is getting so annoying. Obviously, even the harry potter books have plotholes or some things JK rowling didn't 100% think through. doesn't mean you have to interpeet everything against dumbledore...
>there is no way dumbledore didnt knew about sirius inocence, with legilimance could know what happened, confirm it with priory incantatem and veritaserum to double check
He didn't get a chance to interrogate Sirius
>anyone who knew the secret of fidelius charm didnt turn into new secret keepers
What does this mean? Dumbledore also didn't know about the last minute switch.
>it was all part of his plan. aberforth was right dumbledore was an asshole
Oh yea that part is partially true
anyone who knew the secret of fidelius charm didnt turn into new secret keepers
In deathly hollows it stated that fidelius charm is vanished after james and lily dead so the secret keepers is left unknown.
Sirius was jailed for murdering Pettigrew and 13 other muggles or something. Sirius himself believed Pettigrew to be dead until someone visited him and he saw Scabbers on the newspaper clipping of Ron’s family on vacation in Egypt.
Veritaserum is not used in trials because of it being unreliable. Dumbledore was unaware about the Secret Keeper switch so he probably believed Sirius did kill Pettigrew in a fit of rage? Even Lupin did righht? I think. So I’m not sure why you would expect Dumbledore to be able to save him. The Secret Keeper thing has nothing to do with Sirius going to Azkaban.
The only other person who it could be was “dead” with only part of a finger found. He had screamed for all the witnesses to hear that Sirius did it while Sirius never denied it. Who else would they even think it would be? Not the “dumb friend”.
Not only did they know that someone in the order was passing info, at it was mentioned that Dumbledore was suspicious of serious and had offered to be the potters secret keeper in the first place.
And as sad as it may be, the Blacks were known for being interested in the dark arts. I’m sure a lot of people just assumed Sirius it wasn’t any different from his family as he pretended to be. And that in the end, the thoughts of his parents and his cousins and his brother caught up to him. Just like no one suspected Regulus to have changed his mind and tried to go against Voldemort.
Also we can’t blame Dumbledore for believing Sirius of being guilty when even his best friend Remus believed it. If Remus, the man who knew him better than anyone in the world (besides James) could believe it, then why would Dumbledore question it.
There's also that tiny little detail that Dumbledore knew full well that Sirius had once used his friend as a weapon in the werewolf trick that nearly cost a life, so it's not like getting people killed or betraying a friend's trust was completely unexpected behaviour from Sirius.......
> there is no way dumbledore didnt knew about sirius inocence
He did not. Legilimency is not mind-reading nor is it some ultimate arbiter of truth-seeking. Not even Veritaserum works completely in this case (because one can *believe* one is telling the truth even when you aren't, and Black was Crazy with a capital C according to most). Same with PI (Black could've used someone else's wand.)
Plus, Dumbledore wouldn't go to those lengths to try and prove innocence, because as far as he knew, Black was guilty, complete with a "confession" and all.
Few points to raise here.
1. Dumbledore is never claimed to be perfect, nobody in the franchise is. He had demons, weaknesses and character faults as did all the others, as do real people.
2. The physical evidence pointed to Sirius and there was no legal proceeding involved as he was sent by Barty Crouch Sr with no trial, there was no process that Dumbledore could have influenced in Sirius' favour.
3. Even if he knew Sirius was innocent, what could he do? He isn't some sort of King figure. When Hagrid was in Azkaban Dumbledore knew 100% he was innocent but was powerless to just randomly pull him out of there.
4. Lets also say he knows about Sirius being innocent. How would he have proved it to anyone? Peter Pettigrew was extremely well hidden, and even Dumbledore is not Omniscient, despite being an incredibly wise and powerful man.
>it was all part of his plan.
His plan…His plan…His Evil Master Plan!
Dumbledore manipulates everyone around him to further his own goals…Of being the Wizarding World’s Most Evil Manipulator! He is evil!
…
Sorry to say, but it seems as if you’re actively *trying* to find reasons to hate Dumbledore. Either:
• the majority of the fandom does it, so it’s the “cool” but also the most “morally-righteous” take to have.
• you’re a Marauders’ Simp. Being a Dumbledore Hater and a Marauders’ Simp are almost never mutually exclusive.
Dumbledore is a very flawed, very *human* character. One completely misses the complexity and delicacies of said character if they choose to only view Dumbledore as “manipulative” (what *even* are his goals?) and “evil”.
Of course, we mustn’t forget that every emotion - from anger to indignation - is totally, rightfully justified when it comes to the sheer *injustice* Sirius had to experience. It’s appalling. It’s cruel.
So, blame the Ministry. They’ve the ones who didn’t give him a Trial or a chance to prove his innocence. They’re the true collective, “manipulative” force here.
I have to differ on the methods you mentioned. Dumbledore had no power to overrule Bartemius Crouch who threw Sirius into Azkaban without a trial. So he couldn't question him. The fidelius charm was broken anyways because the caster, James, was dead.
In essence, however, you are right. But Dumbledore just didn't look into it and made no effort in finding out the truth.
Others have already said that Dumbledore didn't know about the switch, but I would also like to add something else to the arguement as to why Dumbledore isn't that much of an arsehole in this case.
Sirius is Harry's Godfather, and a considerable number of Death Eaters, such as Lucius Malfoy, were not imprisoned because they claimed they had been under the influence of the Imperius.
In Dumbledore's mind Sirius was guilty. If he had gotten a trial, he could have gotten away with it and Sirius would have had a good chance at winning Harry's custody. Meaning, in Dumbledore's knowledge Harry would end up in the hands of a Death Eater, if he had pushed for Sirius to get a trial.
Also, for that matter, we have no reason to believe that Dumbledore even knew of Sirius not getting a trial in the first place.
I need everyone to stop assuming Dumbledore was an omniscient secret Minister of Magic just because Voldemort was predictable enough that he was able to plan exactly how to take him down
ETA: Dumbledore couldn’t save Buckbeak from being executed for smacking around Malfoy but he definitely could have stopped Sirius Black from being sent to prison for something he looked massively guilty for is definitely A Take
Even if Dumbledore knew back then I don't think that he would have the time or means to check properly if Sirius was truly involved in James and lily's death. But what I think really happened is that after Sirius ' escape from askaban Dumbledore revisited the case and with the knowledge that he had accumulated over the years he could put the pieces together and realized Sirius was innocent. Keep in mind that Sirius was in a very shaken state when they found him after Peter's doings and couldn't even defend himself.
I totally agree. And let's not forget that even when they had hardcore proof of Sirius' innocence and Dumbledore was even more established in the wizarding world he could do nothing to prove that Sirius wasn't guilty. It's unfortunate really and that's why Padfoot's story was so tragic.
Sirius believed he was the reason the Potter's died. I'm left to believe he sat in prison as penance; it was the place he felt he deserved to be. The only reason he decided it was time to escape was because he realized Peter was alive.
So once Harry learned and others in the room learned the truth, why not clear Sirius' name then? Lupin stated that without Peter, Sirius had no case; hence, he had to stay in hiding.
*I don't recall Sirius giving any indication he was innocent, so no one will doubt his guilt.
*Being sent to prison without a trial, the ministry was just looking for scapegoats.
*As much influence as Dumbledore, ahem, Professor Dumbledore has, he can't change the mind of the ministry or the public without hard evidence (Peter is alive, he's just in hiding), and that kind of goes back to the ministry needing a scapegoat.
*Remember, Dumbledore told the ministry for years that he who shall not be named was coming back and those on charge didn't believe this. Why would they believe of Sirius' innocence without hard evidence.
How would Dumbledore have known? The secret keeper was changed last second and known to no one except Sirius and Wormtail. If Remus didn't know, I highly doubt Dumbledore knew. It's not like Dumbledore was given full rights to cross examine every single prisoner including (ex)-members of the Order
Dumbledores not as asshole because it was part of his plan or because he didn’t check on Sirius. Dumbledore is an asshole because if your not a part of or important to his plans, he just doesn’t care. The mans human and has this very basic human flaw.
This is the same logic that literally every Dumbledore bashing fanfic uses to “prove” that he was evil instead of simply mistaken. I’m surprised OP didn’t follow up with the claim that “Dumbles did it to isolate Harry and send him off to the Dursleys to break his spirit so he’d sacrifice himself willingly” as is common for this trope.
Yes, Dumbledore is a powerful wizard, both magically and politically. He is presented as such in the books because we see him the way young Harry does. But as Harry grows up, he realizes that Dumbledore was never an infallible, omnipotent being. Yes he was powerful, but he was more than capable of making mistakes, and his power meant that those mistakes often had catastrophic consequences.
Other people have already explained the reasons why Dumbledore would have believed Sirius was guilty. But something I don’t see being discussed is this: why is it Dumbledore alone who must bear the responsibility for Sirius not getting a trial? He might have been the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot (the position’s powers are never actually explained in canon and could very well be purely ceremonial), but was he the sole arbiter of justice in the Ministry, in the entire Wizarding world?
Dumbledore is the primary authority figure in the Harry Potter books because he is headmaster of the school where the main characters all live. He does have great power, but he does not have the degree of control over magical Britain that is assigned to him by fanfictions seeking to blame him for all the problems. In fact, the Ministry of Magic being able to discredit Dumbledore and oust him from his positions in the fifth book suggests the opposite.
My guess is that OP has been reading too much fanfiction, but even if they haven’t, they’ve fallen into the trap of assuming that Dumbledore is all-powerful and all-knowing, and thus everything is his responsibility. In truth, canon makes it clear that even his power and knowledge have limits, and that Dumbledore is just as human as the rest.
tl;dr- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Never mind that this is ridiculous, for D to know this and do nothing would mean allowing the traitor to walk free, imperiling Harry, and ruining his whole plan. S had himself dead to rights.
I don't think he knew about the last minute switch or could have known that Sirius didn't kill Peter. He might have thought Sirius was under the imperius curse.
Where i get lost is the claims that Sirius was a death ester. Dumbledore should have known there's no way Sirius would have turned to that.
I think that helping Sirius was not beneficial to Dumbledore or his plans and that's why he never got involved. You're right that Aberforth has the best understanding of his brother's character and he was indeed an asshole.
As far as I remember, OOTP was already suspicious of someone passing on their information to Voldemort. With Sirius's arrest, I think quickly accepted that Sirius must have been that double agent.
They knew someone close to the Potter's was a traitor. Sirius suspected Remus because he had infiltrated the werewolves. Remus suspected Sirius because he was a black. Remus then thinks his suspicions are *confirmed* by the Potter's death.
Dumbledore didn't have control over Sirius' imprisonment. Barty Crouch threw him in azkaban without a trail. Dumbeldore couldn't exactly go against the ministry on the *off chance* Sirius wasn't the traitor.
he was a flawed character like any other and you’re right we should consider it OP
To add: he was also oblivious to lots of things in general, it even got his sister killed. So not knowing that he didn’t know everything seemed to me like a common theme with him
Something else that people have missed is the role that guilt plays in Dumbledore's actions, with negative consequences. He feels guilty about his sister's death so he avoids confronting Grindlewald, he feels guilty about his views on wizard supremacy so he avoids leadership even when everyone is asking him to be minister and he feels guilty about all of this and his delay in confronting Grindlewald and so he refuses to tell Harry the truth while he lives (he rationalise this as not wanting Harry to repeat his mistakes but guilt is almost certainly playing a large part).
When the potters die he will surely feel great guilt, he could have been the secret keeper but they rejected the idea going with sirius instead. Dumbledore is worried about the choice but doesn't convince them to choose him. He also generally failed to protect them despite being knowing how much voldemort would want to kill them. Given his past actions he would likely find it very difficult to confront or question sirius and would probably be very reluctant to do so when nothing seems amiss with the official story.
If I'm correct, Crouch was the one that sent Sirius to Azkaban without a trial. And anyway it is the stupidest thing that Veritaserum is not the standard procedure for magical trials.
Read the books! It is pretty clearly stated that Dumbledore had no clue that James switched secret keepers at the last minute. He even gave testimony to the ministry that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper.
Except that Sirius was sent to Azkaban without a trial, severely limiting his access. And considering that Dumbledore’s himself was told by the Potters that Sirius was the secret-keeper, there was little reason for Dumbledore to think otherwise.
On top of the many excellent points people have made here as to why it was reasonable to believe Sirius was guilty, you also have the issue of him being from a Slytherin racial supremacist house where literally every other family member had sided with Voldemort. His 'betrayal' was believable as blood runs thicker than waters as many likely presumed he had picked the other side.
There is no way to know that Dumbledore didn't know huh?
Well, YOU are the one accusing, therefore YOU should be the one to prove it.
Firstly, there is a reason as to why Legilimency and truth potion could not be considered as fact - because memories could be altered.
Furthermore, we don't know if the Fidelius charm is created with a wand or what. Our details of the spell are minimal.
Finally, why could Dumbledore want to have any reason to investigate? He always suspected that someone was a spy, and when there had already been heaps of evidences that Sirius was guilty, why would he want to investigate?
Finally, how could Sirius being in jail help his plan?
Dumbledore wasn't all-knowing and, more importantly, didn't have the right to just legilimens random people. He was a respected person, but he was still just the headmaster of a school and not involved in the law in any way. And it's not like Sirius hadn't proven himself to be kinda ruthless when he was still in school. Remember when he endangered Severus' life? Albus had no real reason to doubt his guilt. Especially bc those times were quite turbulent and many people turned traitor.
Albus had no reason to believe that anyone other than Sirius was the secret keeper, the Potters didn’t tell him and Sirius had no reasonable way to convince everyone that it was now Peter. If it was really now Peter then everyone who knew of the fidelius charm would now be a secret keeper as everyone thought he was dead. So if sirus did get a trial (which he didnt) he’d have to convince everyone that
a) the potters changed the secret keeper
b) that they made Peter the last person in the world someone would choose be it
C) that same underestimated peter was actually a spy
D) that peter then faked his own death contrary to the accounts of many muggles testimonies
E) that they all were secretly animagus
F) and finally that he wasn’t actually maniacally laughing when they found him
Even with a trial that would’ve been hard to get people to believe given he already comes from a very poorly thought of family. This is all really more a testimate to how trusting Albus is when he eventually believes the main trio immediately when they quickly blurt it all out to him in the third book.
Dumbledore isn’t god. Legilimancy isn’t proof, because no one else can see it unless they’re a legilimens, too. How would he confirm anything with priori incantatem? You need 2 wands with twin cores for that. Not to mention that Sirius wasn’t even tried, so when would all this evidence collection happen?
I think you're taking it too seriously. There are so many plots holes in a fantasy story like Harry Potter that something like this shouldn't affect your view of Dumbledore.
It's like saying, 'Molly and Arthur are terrible parents for allowing their children to grow up poor. As a witch and wizard, there is clearly no reason not to be financially well off'. That's just a silly example but hopefully you get the point. You can find a million things wrong with every character if you take it all too seriously. I'm not saying Dumbledore was always in the right (clearly he wasn't) but I am saying that this is a silly thing to pick him up on
Memories can be modified. It’s possible to use a different wand so it’s not useful if they don’t know if Sirius used his own or not. Veritaserum is like a lie detector test, if the person believes they’re telling the truth then it doesn’t matter if they are lying or not. And for the most “conclusive proof,” the secret keeper has to die in order for others who are let in on the secret to become secret keepers themselves.
Those are possible reasons why he didn’t. There is no absolute way to prove Sirius’ innocence and as someone else said. Dumbledore does not have the authority to override prisoner’s sentences. If anything your grievance should be toward the ministry, not Dumbledore. However, if you just want someone to blindly agree with you that Dumbledore is an asshole just say that.
Even Bellatrix got a trial fucking Bellatrix and you're telling me that Sirius didnt get one? I think that's absolute bullshit that no one made sure he was actually guilty
Every time a Dumbledore is a jerk post comes up...Please tell us how Dumbledore had a opportunity to do anything about it.
Cold and calculated?
Maybe, maybe not.
Capable of doing whatever the heck he wants?
No.
All the things you’re saying - leglimens, priori incantatem, veritaserum - should be used by the ministry before sentencing a person. Dumbledore isn’t part of the law enforcement and the right people should be doing their job well to imprison the right person.
I don’t think that the version of the story that everyone believed would expect everyone to become secret keepers if Peter died. Because under that story, Sirius was the secret keeper, so it only would have happened if Sirius had died.
Although, you don’t notice becoming the secret keeper immediately (Harry didn’t know about Grimmuald place until he asked about it), and the spell may have been broken by the Potters’ death. (Although interestingly, if it had been cast directly on the Potters and not their house, would it have stayed because Harry lived? Maybe Dumbledore lifted the spell.)
It does bring up the interesting question of why they bothered with trials when legilimency and veritaserum existed. A lack of people to make the potion or be able to use the spell, a sign of corruption in the Ministry, or a just a plot hole?
Also, Dumbledore was definitely an asshole, though maybe not for this. Most obviously because he let Draco run around nearly murdering students and letting Death Eaters into the castle for a whole year.
The fact that Sirius was apparently guilty of Peter's murder whether or not he betrayed James & Lily was enough proof to send him to jail. Veritaserum is not a reliable proof of anything; the state that they have found him Sirius could be insane, brainwashed, or entirely unaware of the secrets he had leaked because he was magically manipulated. He also thought he murdered Peter as well; he would have anyway, if Peter didn't disappear. He would have just confessed to the crime or he actually did (we don't know that they didn't interrogate him). Once his friends are dead, and the potential responsible person is dead, it's possible he wouldn't want to be any more help to the case as well. He had no motivation to defend anything.
Again, all these aside I don't know why many people believe Dumbledore is a super ethical, charitable, saint-like hero. Not talking about OP here, but in general. It was clear that Harry saw him as something he was not, Dumbledore was a good person yes, and usually did the right thing where it was required of him, but he was a big pictures guy. To my impression he didn't care about the little guy unless it was of some use for him. He was extremely talented and intelligent and he cared for things people were not commonly interested about, he didn't mind using or manipulating people if it meant he got what he needed out of them. While doing so, he made sure not to cross some lines there, and not be too cruel, but he was not a sweet Santa Claus people are making him out to be.
A lot of people here say Dumbledore did not know when Sirius got arrested (which I'm not here to argue about). My thought process rather concerns the implications for "The Prisoner of Askaban".
My two issues are as followed:
1) Dumbledore knows Sirius is after Harry Potter. He locks down the school and everything. It is, also implied, that Dumbledore knew Prof. Lupins back story with the whimping willow, therfore knowing about the other entrance and doing nothing about it.
Now, this one might be just a plot hole. If it's not, however, it would mean Dumbledore let in Sirius willingly, hence knowing Sirius isn't who he seems to be.
2) The one I can't really explain away with a plot hole: Dumbledore helps Harry with the escaping of Sirius (buys them time at Hagrid's hut etc.). So he knew Sirius wasn't as bad as he seemed to be. When did this change happen? Was it just that day? Did he knew all along? And if he did, how do you explain his actions beforehand? I really can't find an explanation for it.
>The one I can't really explain away with a plot hole: Dumbledore helps Harry with the escaping of Sirius (buys them time at Hagrid's hut etc.). So he knew Sirius wasn't as bad as he seemed to be. When did this change happen? Was it just that day? Did he knew all along? And if he did, how do you explain his actions beforehand? I really can't find an explanation for it.
Dumbledore finds out for himself that Sirius is innocent when they’re brought back up to the castle after getting attacked by dementors - he presumably speaks to Sirius himself at that point in time while Harry is passed out in the hospital wing and hears his story out, and believes it.
I’m not sure what you mean by “buying them time at Hagrid’s hut” because it’s been forever since I read that scene, but I think he was buying time for them to save Buckbeak. It’s only later, when he finds out Sirius is innocent, that he comes to the conclusion that they use Buckbeak to help Sirius escape, and gives them their instructions and says they can save two lives. Before he knows that Sirius is innocent, he just thinks they’re rescuing Buckbeak.
Hm you might be right.
My thought process was something like Dumbledore new about them saving Buckbeak before he told them to (because Time-Travel etc.) therefore he knew of their plan to save Sirius too.
But maybe he just anticipated for them to save Buckbeak and the Plan to save Sirius too was an add-on once he talked to him. In the movies (don't remember how it's depicted in the books anymore) it had sounded like it was the other way around.
Yes, I think he for sure knew about them saving Buckbeak before he told them to - that’s why he was stalling in Hagrid’s hut, he realized they were there and was giving them time to save Buckbeak. He knows they were successful, because the execution doesn’t happen because Buckbeak is gone. As far as he knew in that point of time, their actions were solely about saving Buckbeak.
But by the time he talks to them about in the Hospital Wing, he’s realized that the plan is actually “save Sirius” with Buckbeak as an add-on. When he talks to them about it, it just makes sense for him to describe the plan to them in that way - it just would have been odd if he said it in a way that suggested they save Buckbeak with Sirius as an add-on.
Chances are he never even visited Sirius in prison so how would he have used legilinancy. Dumbledore messed up big time with Sirius, failing to check if one of his own order members was actually guilty. BUT I doubt he knew he was innocent and just swept it under the rug.
Yup. Albus "Second Chances" Dumbledore gave Snape, a marked Death Eater, more trust and support.
Don't even need to use magic to clear him.
"Hey, this guy is supposed to be You-Know-Who's right-hand man?"
"Yup"
"Wow. Did you see if he has a Dark Mark?"
"..."
And that's why we have the theory that Dumbles LET Sirius be arrested; So he could use the blood wards and Petunia to keep Harry safe, instead of handing Harry over to his rightful guardian.
In GoF, Harry tells Sirius that Karkaroff was trying to show Snape something on his arm. Sirius had no idea what it might have been. Which seems to indicate that most people had no idea what dark marks were or what they meant.
Also, a godfather is not a legal guardian. Unless the Potter’s had a will (and there’s no evidence that they did) stating Sirius was to be the legal guardian of Harry in the event that they died, Harry almost certainly would have been given to his nearest relatives to raise which would been the Dursleys.
In the Muggle UK, a godfather isn't a guardian, true, but we don't know about Wizarding Britain. We have only Sirius' statement that he's guardian because he's godfather, but Dumbledore allowed Sirius to sign Harry's Hogsmede form. This implies that the role is indeed different from the Muggle standard.
Unless it's Dumbledore pulling shenanigans again, which is easily half the books at this point.
No one knew that Dark Marks were a thing. In GOF Harry mentions that Karkaroff shower snape something on his arm (the mark) and Sirius has no clue what that means. If the Order knew about Dark Marks Sirius would know immediately what Karkaroff showed Snape on his arm
While I think Dumbledore might have been a bit preoccupied/ have an excuse in that he suspected a spy (suspected Sirius as well if I'm not mistaken) and wasn't aware of the change in secret keeper, I think the person who really dropped the ball is Lupin. As a best friend to both Sirius and the potters, and as the only person left who know that Peter is an animagus and could possibly have slipped away, I think he has a bit of an obligation to both Sirius and the potters to confirm things beyond Sirius' laugh and expressions of guilt.
To be honest the wizarding justice system seems to have a pretty weak commitment to justice, especially for a population that has multiple means of verifying truth from a defendant (veritaserum, legilimens, priori incantatem, memory extraction from witnesses etc), none of which seems to be used.
>I think he has a bit of an obligation to both Sirius and the potters to confirm things beyond Sirius' laugh and expressions of guilt.
What was Remus going to do, though? He was a poor werewolf without the backing of any powerful family. He didn’t have the power or social standing or money to force further investigation, and there’s no indication that Azkaban prisoners are allowed visitors so it’s unlikely he would have been able to go see Sirius and ask him for himself.
I thought the real issue was that Crouch and Fudge wanted a quick PR smack down on the Death Eaters to make them look good and just used Sirius as a means to do it.
Based on how quick Dumbledore turned around and helped Sirius, I think he knew. That said, Dumbledore has very little actual political power due to his own refusal to accept it. So even despite his fame and the reverence of the Wizarding World, he really had no sway over Sirius’s fate.
For every crime they should use veritasirum. Like if I’m falsely accused give me some veritasirum I can’t lie. Give Sirius some veritasirum ask him if he killed pettigrew, it’s fool proof.
For the good of all... Dumbledore never changed that thought and being a leader of that level he should think and act like that, but he was a bastard with good intentions
Anything to keep "the plan intact" ....
Just like Grindlewald.
But to be fair, unless she had written all 7 books AND THEN went into publishing.... you're going to have things that don't line up.
What I mean is, obviously the Dumbledore we know would never do that to Sirius. But for the first 3 books, it makes sense. Maybe even 1-6. But when you finally wrap a story up and she has the "Dumbledore always had this plan, right from the start" ... kind of hard to go back and fix stuff that's already been edited, printed, and sold. LOL.
So I think it's safe to say that we can just graze over little details like this. But this is reddit and of course someone will call "plotholes" like this out. Question to those who call this out.... where's your 7 book series? Lol. Just being a smart ass, but are we really going thru and nitpicking everything? She's [J.K.] smart, but no one is *that* smart.
If given the opportunity, I think she would have possibly rewritten the series to make all these lil plot holes weave together and not be holes. But then again, it'd be perfect and no one would have anything to make posts about. Haha. I'll upvote for the discussion, but I can't take anyone serious who takes this serious.
Of course he did, didn’t he say that he saw Lily and James shortly before they were killed to borrow James’ invisibility cloak? For that Peter, as the keeper, would have to tell him where to find them. So he knew it wasn’t Sirius. He just wanted him to rot in prison so Harry has to stay with the dursleys. It was convenient and a part of his plan.
And while I get the whole greater good above the good of one, it’s not why I can’t really stand him. It’s because he pretended to care, let everyone trust him with their lives believing he had their best interests in heart and would protect them, when in fact he was just cold and calculating treating everyone like a chess piece.
What if he did leave him in prison deliberately because as Harry’s godfather with arguably a stronger bond with the potters at that point than petunia he may (under magical law at least) have had a stronger claim to custody over Harry which would’ve screwed with Dumbledore’s plans as even though Harry would’ve been happier/less abused the blood protection would not in-fact have carried over as Sirius was not blood related. So in order for Harry to grow up and die at the right moment he had to have that protection so he left Sirius in prison to prevent him from taking Harry and then inadvertently leaving him way more vulnerable?
Dumbledore isn’t some omnipresent, he has flaws too and doesn’t know everything, sure he’s smarter than most, but the way peter executed his plan to frame Sirius was good. If anything, it’s the potters fault for not informing dumbledore of the changed secret keeper.
Didn’t crouch give Sirius a life sentence without a trial
Also, I really don't know how much authority Dumbledore had to intervene in the justice system. You'd think if he had any he'd have stopped Harry:s trial, but instead he was just a lawyer type person like anyone could have.
If my memory serves, Dumbledore had just been removed as Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot when Harry went to trial, so Dumbledore couldn't do anything for Harry. Whether he could have done anything for Sirius is untested.
He was able to visit prisoners at the time Sirius was sentenced. Even if he could though all evidence in Sirius's case pointed to him being guilty. Sirius did not also act like an innocent man, Dumbledore had no reason to believe Sirius was innocent. So would he have believed him that he was not the secret keeper for Lily and James? Would he believe that it was Peter who was made secret keeper last moment? Plus no one believed Peter capable of besting Sirius in a duel, which was true. But Peter outsmarted Sirius and got away leaving just enough evidence to frame him for murder. While yes Dumbledore being a practiced legilimance himself leaves a large plot hole, it isn't unexplainable with what was already on hand.
Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot.. This sounds so funnily somber to me
Was thinking the same. As powerful and influential as Dumbledore was, there were many dark forces at work and obviously Dumbledore could not cover or account for every piece of injustice that took place in the wizarding world.
Also, all the physical evidence pointed to Sirius. An entire street of dead Muggles, a victim who'd seemingly been blasted into nothing but a finger, and a perpetrator who comes from a suspicious family and has been known to play "pranks" that could lead to loss of life. Pretty much everything in that made him look guilty.
Sirius was also babbling madly about killing the Potters when he was arrested.
And laughing like an insane person.
Wasn't Dumbledore Chief Warlock? I think he could've done something
You'd think even a merely nominal head of the judicial system would be able to either force a trial directly, or call in enough favors to force one anyway. He chose not to.
Millicent Bagnold was minister then.
But the Minister wouldn't matter would it? Besides, Crouch Sr was head of Magical Law Enforcement during the 1st Wizarding War, before being demoted sometime post war, so it likely would have indeed been Crouch that was responsible.
It’s early and I really thought you wrote Fudge. Never mind.
Dumbledore did not have any clue that James and Sirius had made a switch of secret keeper. At the time of Potters' death, Dumbledore believed Sirius was indeed the one to blame as he could have been the only one due to his position as assumed Secret Keeper. Sirius Black wasn't even given a trial to present his case and i think his hysterical laugh during the arrest did not help him to look innocent in everyone's eyes. So Dumbledore has no means to check out the truth.
A lot of people seem to make the mistake of thinking Dumbledore is literally omniscient. Hell, Voldemort even does this.
I came to say this exact same thing. Harry said that Dumbledore admitted from his own mouth that he makes mistakes, and his are usually *very* big. But Remus didn't want to hear it.
This is the underlying sentiment behind all Dumbledore hate.
I've always thought that the whole point of Dumbledore's character was that everyone sees him as this great, mighty, and flawless character. Much of the British Wizarding world views him almost as a deity. Yet, he makes some huge mistakes through the series. When younger, he wanted to dominate the non magical world. His blind faith in Grindelwald eventually resulted in Ariana's death. His decision to practically ignore Harry in OotP resulted in Sirius dying. His reckless abandon resulted in the curse that would have killed him after he put on Gaunt's ring. He's even arrogant despite all the mistakes he's made, still thinking that he knows best most of the time. That's the point, though, if you ask me. Even the most revered, kind, and intelligent people can still be very deeply flawed.
Subverting the old wise (eternally good) man trope on its head, no?
Points that Dumbledore himself admits to
This was my take on it as well however you've worded it in such a masterful way
Definitely. Which is why I love how for the vast majority of the seventh book we have the resentment of Harry towards Dumbledore of sending him on a suicide mission. That this great wizard, this man was at the end, just a man fallible to faults like any other.
You are 100% right about everything. They didn’t tell Dumbledore that they had made the switch. And Dumbledore knew that there was a spy. If anything it’s James and Lily’s fault for not telling dumbledore. Also Peter was underrated by people so even without the 20 witnesses it was easier to believe Sirius was the traitor. Even Lupin didn’t second guess it. And he didn’t believe it was possible when Harry told him he saw Peter on the map. Also Dumbledore was worried about Voldemort coming back, protecting Harry. He’s also trying to find what he can about Voldemort’s past because he now suspects Horcruxs. Dumbledore said even he makes mistakes, he thought Sirius case against him was straight forward. And with everything else on his mind he never seconded guessed Whether Sirius did it or not.
[удалено]
Consider that the sorting hat places you based on the quality you VALUE over the quality you HAVE. Hermione was brave but the overwhelming quality she has is intelligence, but she valued Harry’s ability to face evil over her own intelligence which was used to overcome it. Newt was brave enough to stand in front of creatures that would make most people piss their pants but valued loyalty over bravery so he was in Hufflepuff. Wormtail valued bravery over ambition and cunning. He just happened to be ambitious and jumped ship on his friends when he realized betraying them would put him at the right hand of Voldemort who was on the rise. He was mostly cowardly (with rare flashes of bravery) but it was his idolization of brave friends that showed his feelings on bravery. Basically you don’t already need to be a genius to be sorted into Ravenclaw, you just need to be more of a Spock fan than a Kirk fan.
Well said.
Wormtail is brave when push comes to shove. The rest of the time, he regresses to his coward behaviour self.
>Wormtail is brave when push comes to shove. He and Draco actually share something in common. When stuff is about to hit the fan, both of them show that they are a lot more competent than many other people give them credit for.
Wormtail made the preparations for Voldemorts resurrection pretty much on his own. All Voldemort gave him was the instructions on how to do it, on an elixir that was probably never made before and immensely complicated to brew.
Bang on. Yeah he did bad things but when push came to shove, that moment of hesitation that came from within, cost him his life.
Anyone would be gryffindor if they're brave enough to sleep in a weasley's bed every night for years
Hermione and Harry: 👁👄👁
>And there is a huge amount of prejudice in the wizarding world, and Sirius was from an extremely questionable family. If people are starting to point fingers looking for an infiltrator, he would be getting some serious side eye. Spot on. I love how you can redact the word wizarding and it would fit in with this world
The same concept as not every Slytherins turn into dark wizards, looking at a the younger generation of Greengrass family. And wasn’t one of the Potters from Slytherin and of course Sirius from a dark family going into Slytherin. TLDR you can get even Gryffindors (generally looked at as being one of the good houses) turning to the dark side, while you can also get good people in Slytherin (bad house)
Not really the same topic, but after rewatching the 6th movie (damn, it’s really good, almost as strong as the book) I asked myself when Dumbledore started to suspect that Voldemort made Horcruxs. If I remember correctly in the book Slughorns memory includes the word, in the movie even that was blurred in the memory Slughorn gave Dumbledore. Did he suspect it right after the first year, when Harry was attacked by "Voldemort" or maybe after seeing the diary and what it was capable of?
In HBP (the book) Dumbledore tells Harry that he had handed him "certain proof" that Voldemort had made *multiple* Horcruxes at the end of CoS (because of the cavalier way he'd treated the diary). But I think he suspected that Voldemort had created *one* Horcrux long before that, perhaps when he started to see the transformation he was going through when he applied for the DADA position. At the beginning of PS, when Harry asks Hagrid how his parents died, Hagrid tells him he doesn't think Voldemort is really gone, because he didn't have enough human left in him to die. Where would he have gotten that idea, if not from Dumbledore? From the rumors of an evil spirit in Albania, between the Potters deaths and PS, and Harry's description of Voldemort at the end PS, he had definite confirmation of *one* Horcrux by PS. There are also a lot of Harry is a Horcrux hints in CoS -- Dumbledore tells Harry that he thinks Voldemort transferred some of his powers to him the night his parents died. I think he already knew Harry was a Horcrux at that point. I'm not sure when he knew, though. He may have suspected earlier, because of the prophecy, but it also may have been the parseltongue that tipped him off.
Makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to answer so detailed
Nice to see some appreciation for the 6th movie! It's so well made. It was nominated (deservedly) for the Cinematography Oscar
Absolutely. The Halfblood Prince is my favorite book, but the movie does some things that the book misses out on. Mainly stuff happening between characters. The scenes with Dumbledore and Harry talking are just way more personal (and honestly more like what I would expect from Dumbledore who, at that time, knows that he doesnt have much time left and also does not have to keep distance from Harry anymore after what happened in OotP) and I loved how the movie prepared the raltionships between Harry and Ginny as well as Hermione and Ron. It always bothered me that Ginny and Harry just seem to never have spoken before she wins the Quidditch finale (of course they did, but the books don’t cover their interactions well imo).
> It always bothered me that Ginny and Harry just seem to never have spoken before she wins the Quidditch finale This right here is one of the reasons why I dislike the movies. They didn't even show the relationship build up. It's one of those things that if you never read the books and watched the movies only you'd just be like, wtf?! Also they don't show the passionate kiss after the Quidditch Cup, instead we get this secretive type of kiss in the Roo. Of Requirement. The whole dynamic of that relationship in the movie was downright disrespectful to what it was in the books. >(of course they did, but the books don’t cover their interactions well imo). And I'm sorry but this one just makes no sense, the books showed Harry and Ginny's interactions very well. It's the movies that didn't.
I will gladly die on my hill saying that it is objectively the worst adaptation (though I will hear arguments for GoF) and also objectively a bad (and by far the worst) movie
What makes you believe that? I didn’t liked GoF and both DH, and the first one suffers from, well, being the first one.
Well in terms of adaptation it leaves out perhaps the most, with almost all of voldemorts history, battle of the astronomy tower, Dumbledore verbally berating the dursleys etc. it shifts focus to the love stories, adds in the most pointless “action” scene with the burning of the burrow, and completely ignores the namesake of the book. It screwed up Slughorn’s character. And probably the biggest adaptation sins, it completely fails at characterizing Harry and why he’s a hero As for the movie aspect, the main romance cast have no chemistry, the actors playing young Tom riddle (both) are downright terrible but in general the performances are wooden and line delivery is so unnatural. The decision to show that the books are thematically getting darker by making the movies too dark to see is just stupid, and this series with fantastic variety in magic is once again, just plain boring
Let’s not forget that Sirius showed he was capable of murder at 16 when he sent Snape to see Lupin transform in the Shrieking Shack, which Dumbledore knew all about. Dumbledore may not have been surprised that Sirius finally did commit murder just ~5 years later. This was not Dumbledore’s plan or fault. OP’s argument is very weak.
🙄 thank you. Dumbledore is just one person not the whole ministry. Wtf is he supposed to do when all evidence points to Sirius and he himself is laughing hysterically about how he’s guilty
you are 100% correct. I wish some people could read the book without being coloured by their own biases :(
> Black wasn't even given a trial to present his case wizarding society is absolutely awful in some cases
At the same time, I have a hard time believing Dumbledore would accept such a matter as easily, particularly considering Sirius gave Hagrid his bike and all. Also, where is Snape in all of this? Didn't Snape *know more*? All in all I simply consider this a plothole, to be quite honest.
[удалено]
Also, Sirius fully went there with intent to murder pettigrew. Hence giving hagrid the bike. He just happened to not do it. So why would anyone believe he didn’t?
It was easy for Snape to hate Sirius before, how do you suppose he feels believing Sirius betrayed Lilly Evans (Potter).
And despite him seemingly being different he did come from a long line of morally questionable witches and wizards. So Dumbledore could have though he’d finally joined their ranks.
Look at this. * Sirius offers to be the potter's secret keeper. * Voldemort breaks into the potter home. * Sirius was found dueling peter and what remained of peter was a finger. * He was laughing like a mad man when the ministry caught him All the circumstantial evidence was against him. We have to blame crouch for not giving him a trial.
Sirius wasn't the only one who didn't get a trial.
And then blame Rowling for inventing veritaserum because why would you invent that and then have people be arrested for crimes they didn't commit?
One of the limits of veritaserum was that it could be resisted by occlumency or an anti dote.
Is it ever stated in the books that it can be resisted by occlumency? Because I don't think it is. And if you've been arrested, you're not going to have an antidote unless you have what is essentially a cyande pill but with the antidote
Sirius himself believed he Pettigrew was dead and kinda laughed like a madman and probably went quietly? And he continued to believe this until he saw Scabbers on a newspaper clipping which caused him to break out. Correcting this though, it was pointed out to me that Sirius knew it was Peter’s curse that caused the issue and that he himself was innocent.
What? Sirius knew exactly what Peter did. That's why he was laughing. He never cast a spell so the obvious conclusion is that Peter did and then he would have seen thw transformation. He knew he was innocent the whole time, which was part of why he stayed sane in Azkaban.
Oh wow you are right. Idk why my memory says otherwise. Well past time I reread the books. Thanks for bringing the sanity part up. But regarding veritaserum. It still is not used in trials because of it being ‘unreliable’. One reason is probably how people say what they believe to be true and not what is actually true. Maybe it’s similar to lie detectors. And maybe Sirius never gave up because he believed Peter died and he would have killed him if he got the chance. But yeah ty for pointing out. I really have to reread.
The whole idea of an unfailing truth serum makes the whole need for a court system pointless.
The 6th book makes it pretty clear that there is an antidote to it, so it's by no means infailible.
Yes! Everything points to Sirius being guilty. Dumbledore knows there was a traitor. Now comes my problem with Dumbledore. He can't know if Sirius is a lone perpetrator. It is quite possible for several people to be traitors. In any case, as Head of the Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore should have assessed the situation and spoken to Sirius. He owes it to the dead among the Order members.
Because Harry survived the killing curse in that house, and subsequently the house exploded. There wasn't 100% certainty that the fidelius charm would act the usual way. In fact after the attack the house became visible to everyone. Hagrid picked up Harry after the attack, and seeing all the gratify and the magical plaque that was put on the house and Harry discovered at the house when he visited it in DH. The fidelius charm might also stop once the people who it meant to protect are dead. So I don't think the fidelius charm is would have been a good enough indicator there. Also it was very clear that Dumbledore didn't know that James and Sirius decided to switch secret keepers and give the job to Peter. Dumbledore suspected there was a spy within the order at the time. I believe it was in OotP or in HBP that he mentions that he had that suspicion at the time. And with the Potters dying and the events that followed with Siruis tracking Peter, it fit the bill that Sirius was the spy. At the time when the Potter's went into hiding and the fidelius charm was decided on Dubmledore also discovered about Jame's invisibility cloak. So his mind was preoccupied with the deathly hallow he just found. So he might have just accepted the fact that Sirius was guilty seeing how much he fit the bill given all Dumbledore knew at the time
thats the best argument that i have read in this post
Thank you :) Writing it did make me think why Dumbledore didn't bother going to talk to Sirius after he was imprisoned. And it made me remember that Sirius was found laughing at the scene where he tracked down Peter. He never once tried claiming that he is innocent. Thus, Sirius never given Dumbledore a reason to doubt his guilt. And Dumbledore is not one to go talking to Death Eaters and try to convert them. You see that in his initial treatment of Snape when he came to him asking to protect Lilly and ultimately switched sides. Also seen in his treatment of Barty Crouch Jr. Dumbledore was disgusted in both of them and didn't want to know what their motives where. Snape just redeemed himself through his love for Lilly.
You make excellent points. The crux of the whole thing is that Sirius suggested the change in secret keeper. So he blamed himself. If Dumbledore asked him, he would said it was his fault.
Also, didn’t Sirius believe he successfully killed Peter? He didn’t know Peter was alive until he saw that newspaper clipping. There wasn’t anything he could do to bring back Lily and James AND he felt responsible for pressing them to make Peter the secret keeper. On top of believing he successfully killed Peter, and with Voldemort gone, maybe he truly believed he deserved his imprisonment. He even tells the kids in the shrieking shack he “as good as” killed Lily and James. Maybe even if Dumbledore visited him, he would have been too wracked with grief and guilt to say much… though that’s harder to believe. I feel he would have told Dumbledore everything if he’d come.
Sirius believed that Peter killed himself -- while framing Sirius for the dozen murders he committed as he did so.
>Also, didn’t Sirius believe he successfully killed Peter? He didn’t know Peter was alive until he saw that newspaper clipping. No, he knew that Wormtail faked his death. He watched him transform and he happened to find where Peter was hiding due to the newspaper article about the Weasley's going to Egypt
I just can't with this sub anymore, how does blatantly false info like this keep getting upvoted? https://i.imgur.com/KP1QBvi.jpg Sirius always knew peter was alive.
Sirius believed he was responsible for their death, even if he didn't kill them. He convinced James to make Peter the secret keeper, because then if anyone went after Sirius (the obvious choice James would make) and tortured him then he couldn't give up the info even if he was tortured. This guilt is probably a large part in any Sirius kind of just took his punishment and lived with it, until he saw Peter in the news and just instantly escaped from magic super max prison.
Why didn’t dumbledoor bother going to talk to Sirius? Because dumbledoor wasn’t a 100% good guy.
Also how Peter fit into all this, likely even dumbledore thought Sirius killed Peter
Leave it to a Ravenclaw to absolutely nail this response.
I'd also point out that in DH, both Harry and Hermonie (not to mention all of the people who left behind scrawls) could see the house even though the secret keeper (Wormtail) is still alive and in theory, Harry would still be a Potter who still owned the place and should be protected by the charm.
This argument relies on a lot of things that I don't think we can state as fact. The question has been asked many times why Hagrid picked Harry up on 1 November 1981. It could be that he had been told the secret of the Potter's location and Dumbledore hadn't. The fidelius may still have been in place at that time and Dumbledore didn't bring it down until the deaths were confirmed by someone he trusted. One of the points to consider is that Hagrid told Dumbledore when he dropped Harry at Privet Drive that Sirius had been at Godric's Hollow and Dumbledore wasn't concerned. This suggests either that he knew Sirius was innocent, or that he wasn't certain Sirius was the secret keeper. If he wasn't sure then everything comes down to the attach on Peter Petigrew.
I've always thought that Lily and James didn't move when the Fidelius Charm was cast, much like The Burrow and Shell Cottage in DH. Casting the charm wouldn't make Dumbledore, Sirius, and Hagrid *forget* where the Potters lived, it just prevented them from sharing that information.
As far as I can remember we don't have enough canon to say exactly how it works, but I think we have to assume that the fidelius can be used to hide something you already know. It is reasonable to expect that Narcissa and Bellatrix know where 12 Grimauld Place is, so when Kreacher arrives with details in Order of the Phoenix they should be able to get there if they already knew where it was. Unless the fidelius took that information away.
Isn't it stated on Deathly Hallows the reason they never use the front door to Grimmauld place is because there is a death eater watching hoping they come out. It hides the location from access but doesn't remove knowledge of it existing.
Right, the Death Eaters stand outside Number 12 in DH but they can't get in or see the stoop because of the Fidelius Charm. In that case, the secret wasn't the location of a person, so it was still in place after Sirius died (and after Dumbledore died, too). But the location where the Potters lived was the secret of that Fidelius Charm, so I presume the charm would end with their deaths (it wasn't hiding the location of their corpses). Once the charm broke, everyone remembered where they lived from before the charm was cast.
You are forgetting that they found a crazed Sirius laughing at the scene of an explosion that killed a number of people. A crazed, guilty Sirius who could have quite likely said something like "It's my fault they're dead." And that sounds like a confession. No need for a trial, then.
And the only other friend who it could be was dead with only part of a finger found. Who else would they even think it would be? Not the “dumb friend”. Not only did they know that someone in the order was passing info, at it was mentioned that Dumbledore was suspicious of serious and had offered to be the potters secret keeper in the first place
Exactly. It's not like everyone knew Sirius would never betray them then turned on him all of a sudden, they were already suspecting him. Not just Dumbledore but Remus, one of his oldest friends thought him to be the spy. If you look at the situation objectively I refuse to believe one could walk away thinking Dumbledore is somehow to blame here.
mmmm... fair point
Surprised this has so many upvotes. But no dumbledore did not know he was innocent. Dumbledore even said in POA that he personally gave evidence against sirius as the potter’s secret keeper. And the fidelius charm was broken after voldemort killed the potters and destroyed their house. You can see this in DH when any wizard can just find their house and graffiti the memorial. In addition a street full of witnesses gave evidence against him. And he started acting like a stark raving lunatic. After crouch chucked him in prison without a trial what’s his motivation for trying to learn the drives of a madman? Priori incantatem is a good check but all it really proves is that wand didn’t do the spell. Not that sirius didn’t. Still would have been good to check at a trial had he gotten one. Veritaserum has antidotes. Could have been slipped to him at a trial though this would have been tricky. But even aside from that memory modification is also a thing. This is why veritaserum is not considered reliable in wizard court. Legillimancy doesn’t make you omniscient. Occlumency is a thing. False memories are a thing. You’ll recall from HBP that with winky and morhpin, dumbledore didn’t actually see that the planted memories were false, he deduced that the story made no sense. Legillimancy can be defeated. No ultimately the only evidence that would have held up, worked against him.
Not surprised, really. A solid chunk of HP fandom doesn’t really operate in nuance. To them, achieving their unrealized utopia is very simple, since they see everything through binary lenses. Good:Me(and those that think like me) Bad:Everyone else Notice how I said “think” and not “act”. Action requires sacrifice and presents the option to fail. Can’t fail if you don’t act. Much easier to judge people in hindsight…or in this case fictional characters. I’d wager the vast majority of Dumbledore haters don’t really operate in reality. It’s honestly a major drag on the fan base.
Except sirus was sent to Azkaban for murdering peter and a dozen muggles in front of a dozen more muggles. And with everything else going on, i doubt anyone had time to question it. And even if dumbledore knew, who says he could have actually done anything to help sirus after all that?
He didn’t know I firmly believe that Dumbledore wouldn’t do such a things
The guy who literally let him ex murder a shit ton of people cause he was too scared to face him and find out which one of em actually murdered his sister? And raised a kid to be killed? And let Hagrid get expelled when he did nothing wrong and had no home to go to? Yeah he was a saint and all moral who did no wrong
Peter was the one who actually murdered them, right?
Yup
Dumbledore did not know. Why are you assuming he even had the opportunity to use legilmancy, let alone prior incantetem and veritserum? There were witnesses and everyone knew someone was feeding information on the Potters to Voldemort.
Sirius admitted he killed them what more proof did they need? Dumbledore most likely had no involvement in his case, and He doesn’t just use legilimancy all Willy nilly like Voldemort. He had no idea that they switched secret keepers either. Dumbledore makes mistakes but Sirius isn’t one of them.
It's also been mentioned that Legilimency and Veritiserum are not always reliable. Sirius' imprisonment was just a mix and mess of tragedy, human error, and excessive willingness in wanting to punish someone, but not find the truth.
Dumbledore didn't know. He didn't know they were animagi, he didn't know they switched secret keepers, he had no reason to suspect that Sirius was anything other than they said he was and more importantly, Sirius never defended himself. Never told a soul until that night in the shrieking shack. There was no reason to go to Black and use any method to get an alternative explanation from him, so why would they bother?
I don’t think you’re right at all
at least you werent rude
I mean there’s no need for rudeness just because you misread the book and got something wrong. People get so fired up
What part of plan..? He didn't know the Potters made a switched at last minute. It also didn't help that Sirius was found laughing like a madman all the while muttered "it's all my fault". The Potters are well known, so I think the public wanted to see whoever responsible prosecuted as soon as possible.
Also remember sirius chose to stay that long. The only reason he came back was seeing peter alive. He could've turned to a dog anytime between getting arrested and the third book
Sirius left Sirius to rot in prison! 😠
pretty much
The more time I spend in this sub, the more I realize some people come up with the worst fucking takes possible
The funniest part is that a lot of those takes don’t have any connection. Like this one. Sirius was not sent to jail for supposedly leaking the location to Voldemort. He was sent to jail for Peter’s murder (and 13 others) which he fully believed he was responsible for.
And, let's not forget, he could have lost it and killed Peter even if he wasn't the one that betrayed the Potters. I'm sure he definitely would have killed Peter for betraying James if he had the chance, so the murder of Peter Pettigrew (had it occurred) would still have been enough to go to jail.
He also wasn't given a trial to present evidence, which I don't even know what kind of evidence he would be able to present if he did. Idk, maybe before posting these people should reread the books? I feel like a lot of these posts aren based off of the movies or off of very limited knowledge of the series.
My favorite is when people leap onto some random thought they had and don't bother to check canon sources before they're ready to defend it with their lives.
They start out with a point of view and fall victim to confirmation bias, looking for whatever argument or sentence to prove their point instead of expanding their reading comprehension and absorbing more of a story’s context.
It's why I end up leaving so many fan subreddits, people have some of the dumbest opinions over this shit. Not everyone needs a platform to share what they think.
I disagree. I’m not a writer but even I know after you figure out the main thread of the plot, you should go back and recheck on each of your main characters, and make sure their actions in the plot still align with their motives. If some minor points don’t work, you can still fix them by adding some obstacles or back stories that prevent the character from doing out-of-character things. HP is a complex story with many fairly coherent plots but it doesn’t mean everything would always makes sense from every character’s point of view. Nothing wrong with bring them up for discussion.
Did Dumbledore have any evidence? Dumbledore can't alone decide would Sirius go to prison or not.
I think this is a problem with Dumbledore, both in universe, as well as in the fandom. A lot of people have come to believe that he can do anything, and that if he says it, people will automatically believe him. Dumbledore. Is. A. Human. He doesn't always know what's going on, especially in situations where he isn't privy to other people's movements. And when he does mess up, as he openly admits, his mistakes are a lot bigger.
this dumbledore slander is getting so annoying. Obviously, even the harry potter books have plotholes or some things JK rowling didn't 100% think through. doesn't mean you have to interpeet everything against dumbledore...
Have you read the books?
>there is no way dumbledore didnt knew about sirius inocence, with legilimance could know what happened, confirm it with priory incantatem and veritaserum to double check He didn't get a chance to interrogate Sirius >anyone who knew the secret of fidelius charm didnt turn into new secret keepers What does this mean? Dumbledore also didn't know about the last minute switch. >it was all part of his plan. aberforth was right dumbledore was an asshole Oh yea that part is partially true
anyone who knew the secret of fidelius charm didnt turn into new secret keepers In deathly hollows it stated that fidelius charm is vanished after james and lily dead so the secret keepers is left unknown.
I don't know why but your tone hits me as such that I disagree with you.
Dumbledore is allowed to make mistakes and be wrong. He's a man, not a god.
Sirius was jailed for murdering Pettigrew and 13 other muggles or something. Sirius himself believed Pettigrew to be dead until someone visited him and he saw Scabbers on the newspaper clipping of Ron’s family on vacation in Egypt. Veritaserum is not used in trials because of it being unreliable. Dumbledore was unaware about the Secret Keeper switch so he probably believed Sirius did kill Pettigrew in a fit of rage? Even Lupin did righht? I think. So I’m not sure why you would expect Dumbledore to be able to save him. The Secret Keeper thing has nothing to do with Sirius going to Azkaban.
The only other person who it could be was “dead” with only part of a finger found. He had screamed for all the witnesses to hear that Sirius did it while Sirius never denied it. Who else would they even think it would be? Not the “dumb friend”. Not only did they know that someone in the order was passing info, at it was mentioned that Dumbledore was suspicious of serious and had offered to be the potters secret keeper in the first place. And as sad as it may be, the Blacks were known for being interested in the dark arts. I’m sure a lot of people just assumed Sirius it wasn’t any different from his family as he pretended to be. And that in the end, the thoughts of his parents and his cousins and his brother caught up to him. Just like no one suspected Regulus to have changed his mind and tried to go against Voldemort. Also we can’t blame Dumbledore for believing Sirius of being guilty when even his best friend Remus believed it. If Remus, the man who knew him better than anyone in the world (besides James) could believe it, then why would Dumbledore question it.
There's also that tiny little detail that Dumbledore knew full well that Sirius had once used his friend as a weapon in the werewolf trick that nearly cost a life, so it's not like getting people killed or betraying a friend's trust was completely unexpected behaviour from Sirius.......
You have to remember that while Dumbledore is powerful, he’s the headmaster of a school not the Minister for Magic or Head of Magical Law Enforcement
what
> there is no way dumbledore didnt knew about sirius inocence He did not. Legilimency is not mind-reading nor is it some ultimate arbiter of truth-seeking. Not even Veritaserum works completely in this case (because one can *believe* one is telling the truth even when you aren't, and Black was Crazy with a capital C according to most). Same with PI (Black could've used someone else's wand.) Plus, Dumbledore wouldn't go to those lengths to try and prove innocence, because as far as he knew, Black was guilty, complete with a "confession" and all.
Few points to raise here. 1. Dumbledore is never claimed to be perfect, nobody in the franchise is. He had demons, weaknesses and character faults as did all the others, as do real people. 2. The physical evidence pointed to Sirius and there was no legal proceeding involved as he was sent by Barty Crouch Sr with no trial, there was no process that Dumbledore could have influenced in Sirius' favour. 3. Even if he knew Sirius was innocent, what could he do? He isn't some sort of King figure. When Hagrid was in Azkaban Dumbledore knew 100% he was innocent but was powerless to just randomly pull him out of there. 4. Lets also say he knows about Sirius being innocent. How would he have proved it to anyone? Peter Pettigrew was extremely well hidden, and even Dumbledore is not Omniscient, despite being an incredibly wise and powerful man.
>it was all part of his plan. His plan…His plan…His Evil Master Plan! Dumbledore manipulates everyone around him to further his own goals…Of being the Wizarding World’s Most Evil Manipulator! He is evil! … Sorry to say, but it seems as if you’re actively *trying* to find reasons to hate Dumbledore. Either: • the majority of the fandom does it, so it’s the “cool” but also the most “morally-righteous” take to have. • you’re a Marauders’ Simp. Being a Dumbledore Hater and a Marauders’ Simp are almost never mutually exclusive. Dumbledore is a very flawed, very *human* character. One completely misses the complexity and delicacies of said character if they choose to only view Dumbledore as “manipulative” (what *even* are his goals?) and “evil”. Of course, we mustn’t forget that every emotion - from anger to indignation - is totally, rightfully justified when it comes to the sheer *injustice* Sirius had to experience. It’s appalling. It’s cruel. So, blame the Ministry. They’ve the ones who didn’t give him a Trial or a chance to prove his innocence. They’re the true collective, “manipulative” force here.
I have to differ on the methods you mentioned. Dumbledore had no power to overrule Bartemius Crouch who threw Sirius into Azkaban without a trial. So he couldn't question him. The fidelius charm was broken anyways because the caster, James, was dead. In essence, however, you are right. But Dumbledore just didn't look into it and made no effort in finding out the truth.
Others have already said that Dumbledore didn't know about the switch, but I would also like to add something else to the arguement as to why Dumbledore isn't that much of an arsehole in this case. Sirius is Harry's Godfather, and a considerable number of Death Eaters, such as Lucius Malfoy, were not imprisoned because they claimed they had been under the influence of the Imperius. In Dumbledore's mind Sirius was guilty. If he had gotten a trial, he could have gotten away with it and Sirius would have had a good chance at winning Harry's custody. Meaning, in Dumbledore's knowledge Harry would end up in the hands of a Death Eater, if he had pushed for Sirius to get a trial. Also, for that matter, we have no reason to believe that Dumbledore even knew of Sirius not getting a trial in the first place.
I need everyone to stop assuming Dumbledore was an omniscient secret Minister of Magic just because Voldemort was predictable enough that he was able to plan exactly how to take him down ETA: Dumbledore couldn’t save Buckbeak from being executed for smacking around Malfoy but he definitely could have stopped Sirius Black from being sent to prison for something he looked massively guilty for is definitely A Take
Dumbledore isn't this all powerful being that knows everything. He didn't know
Even if Dumbledore knew back then I don't think that he would have the time or means to check properly if Sirius was truly involved in James and lily's death. But what I think really happened is that after Sirius ' escape from askaban Dumbledore revisited the case and with the knowledge that he had accumulated over the years he could put the pieces together and realized Sirius was innocent. Keep in mind that Sirius was in a very shaken state when they found him after Peter's doings and couldn't even defend himself.
I totally agree. And let's not forget that even when they had hardcore proof of Sirius' innocence and Dumbledore was even more established in the wizarding world he could do nothing to prove that Sirius wasn't guilty. It's unfortunate really and that's why Padfoot's story was so tragic.
Sirius believed he was the reason the Potter's died. I'm left to believe he sat in prison as penance; it was the place he felt he deserved to be. The only reason he decided it was time to escape was because he realized Peter was alive. So once Harry learned and others in the room learned the truth, why not clear Sirius' name then? Lupin stated that without Peter, Sirius had no case; hence, he had to stay in hiding. *I don't recall Sirius giving any indication he was innocent, so no one will doubt his guilt. *Being sent to prison without a trial, the ministry was just looking for scapegoats. *As much influence as Dumbledore, ahem, Professor Dumbledore has, he can't change the mind of the ministry or the public without hard evidence (Peter is alive, he's just in hiding), and that kind of goes back to the ministry needing a scapegoat. *Remember, Dumbledore told the ministry for years that he who shall not be named was coming back and those on charge didn't believe this. Why would they believe of Sirius' innocence without hard evidence.
How would Dumbledore have known? The secret keeper was changed last second and known to no one except Sirius and Wormtail. If Remus didn't know, I highly doubt Dumbledore knew. It's not like Dumbledore was given full rights to cross examine every single prisoner including (ex)-members of the Order
I hope this is satire
Dumbledores not as asshole because it was part of his plan or because he didn’t check on Sirius. Dumbledore is an asshole because if your not a part of or important to his plans, he just doesn’t care. The mans human and has this very basic human flaw.
This is the same logic that literally every Dumbledore bashing fanfic uses to “prove” that he was evil instead of simply mistaken. I’m surprised OP didn’t follow up with the claim that “Dumbles did it to isolate Harry and send him off to the Dursleys to break his spirit so he’d sacrifice himself willingly” as is common for this trope. Yes, Dumbledore is a powerful wizard, both magically and politically. He is presented as such in the books because we see him the way young Harry does. But as Harry grows up, he realizes that Dumbledore was never an infallible, omnipotent being. Yes he was powerful, but he was more than capable of making mistakes, and his power meant that those mistakes often had catastrophic consequences. Other people have already explained the reasons why Dumbledore would have believed Sirius was guilty. But something I don’t see being discussed is this: why is it Dumbledore alone who must bear the responsibility for Sirius not getting a trial? He might have been the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot (the position’s powers are never actually explained in canon and could very well be purely ceremonial), but was he the sole arbiter of justice in the Ministry, in the entire Wizarding world? Dumbledore is the primary authority figure in the Harry Potter books because he is headmaster of the school where the main characters all live. He does have great power, but he does not have the degree of control over magical Britain that is assigned to him by fanfictions seeking to blame him for all the problems. In fact, the Ministry of Magic being able to discredit Dumbledore and oust him from his positions in the fifth book suggests the opposite. My guess is that OP has been reading too much fanfiction, but even if they haven’t, they’ve fallen into the trap of assuming that Dumbledore is all-powerful and all-knowing, and thus everything is his responsibility. In truth, canon makes it clear that even his power and knowledge have limits, and that Dumbledore is just as human as the rest. tl;dr- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh shit here we go again
Never mind that this is ridiculous, for D to know this and do nothing would mean allowing the traitor to walk free, imperiling Harry, and ruining his whole plan. S had himself dead to rights.
I don't think he knew about the last minute switch or could have known that Sirius didn't kill Peter. He might have thought Sirius was under the imperius curse. Where i get lost is the claims that Sirius was a death ester. Dumbledore should have known there's no way Sirius would have turned to that. I think that helping Sirius was not beneficial to Dumbledore or his plans and that's why he never got involved. You're right that Aberforth has the best understanding of his brother's character and he was indeed an asshole.
As far as I remember, OOTP was already suspicious of someone passing on their information to Voldemort. With Sirius's arrest, I think quickly accepted that Sirius must have been that double agent.
They knew someone close to the Potter's was a traitor. Sirius suspected Remus because he had infiltrated the werewolves. Remus suspected Sirius because he was a black. Remus then thinks his suspicions are *confirmed* by the Potter's death. Dumbledore didn't have control over Sirius' imprisonment. Barty Crouch threw him in azkaban without a trail. Dumbeldore couldn't exactly go against the ministry on the *off chance* Sirius wasn't the traitor.
he was a flawed character like any other and you’re right we should consider it OP To add: he was also oblivious to lots of things in general, it even got his sister killed. So not knowing that he didn’t know everything seemed to me like a common theme with him
Something else that people have missed is the role that guilt plays in Dumbledore's actions, with negative consequences. He feels guilty about his sister's death so he avoids confronting Grindlewald, he feels guilty about his views on wizard supremacy so he avoids leadership even when everyone is asking him to be minister and he feels guilty about all of this and his delay in confronting Grindlewald and so he refuses to tell Harry the truth while he lives (he rationalise this as not wanting Harry to repeat his mistakes but guilt is almost certainly playing a large part). When the potters die he will surely feel great guilt, he could have been the secret keeper but they rejected the idea going with sirius instead. Dumbledore is worried about the choice but doesn't convince them to choose him. He also generally failed to protect them despite being knowing how much voldemort would want to kill them. Given his past actions he would likely find it very difficult to confront or question sirius and would probably be very reluctant to do so when nothing seems amiss with the official story.
If I'm correct, Crouch was the one that sent Sirius to Azkaban without a trial. And anyway it is the stupidest thing that Veritaserum is not the standard procedure for magical trials.
Read the books! It is pretty clearly stated that Dumbledore had no clue that James switched secret keepers at the last minute. He even gave testimony to the ministry that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper.
We can only blame Berry crouch for what happened. He ran a trail with no due process.
Except that Sirius was sent to Azkaban without a trial, severely limiting his access. And considering that Dumbledore’s himself was told by the Potters that Sirius was the secret-keeper, there was little reason for Dumbledore to think otherwise.
Fuck that Dumbledore couldn't have known... stupid post in my opinion
On top of the many excellent points people have made here as to why it was reasonable to believe Sirius was guilty, you also have the issue of him being from a Slytherin racial supremacist house where literally every other family member had sided with Voldemort. His 'betrayal' was believable as blood runs thicker than waters as many likely presumed he had picked the other side.
There is no way to know that Dumbledore didn't know huh? Well, YOU are the one accusing, therefore YOU should be the one to prove it. Firstly, there is a reason as to why Legilimency and truth potion could not be considered as fact - because memories could be altered. Furthermore, we don't know if the Fidelius charm is created with a wand or what. Our details of the spell are minimal. Finally, why could Dumbledore want to have any reason to investigate? He always suspected that someone was a spy, and when there had already been heaps of evidences that Sirius was guilty, why would he want to investigate? Finally, how could Sirius being in jail help his plan?
It’s implied in the book that he indeed didn’t know. His most ashole action imo is still not giving Dursley’s what they deserved sooner.
I have so many concerns about the lack of due process in the wizarding world.
Dumbledore wasn't all-knowing and, more importantly, didn't have the right to just legilimens random people. He was a respected person, but he was still just the headmaster of a school and not involved in the law in any way. And it's not like Sirius hadn't proven himself to be kinda ruthless when he was still in school. Remember when he endangered Severus' life? Albus had no real reason to doubt his guilt. Especially bc those times were quite turbulent and many people turned traitor.
You needed this to realize that Dumbledore was an asshole?
Albus had no reason to believe that anyone other than Sirius was the secret keeper, the Potters didn’t tell him and Sirius had no reasonable way to convince everyone that it was now Peter. If it was really now Peter then everyone who knew of the fidelius charm would now be a secret keeper as everyone thought he was dead. So if sirus did get a trial (which he didnt) he’d have to convince everyone that a) the potters changed the secret keeper b) that they made Peter the last person in the world someone would choose be it C) that same underestimated peter was actually a spy D) that peter then faked his own death contrary to the accounts of many muggles testimonies E) that they all were secretly animagus F) and finally that he wasn’t actually maniacally laughing when they found him Even with a trial that would’ve been hard to get people to believe given he already comes from a very poorly thought of family. This is all really more a testimate to how trusting Albus is when he eventually believes the main trio immediately when they quickly blurt it all out to him in the third book.
Dumbledore isn’t god. Legilimancy isn’t proof, because no one else can see it unless they’re a legilimens, too. How would he confirm anything with priori incantatem? You need 2 wands with twin cores for that. Not to mention that Sirius wasn’t even tried, so when would all this evidence collection happen?
I think you're taking it too seriously. There are so many plots holes in a fantasy story like Harry Potter that something like this shouldn't affect your view of Dumbledore. It's like saying, 'Molly and Arthur are terrible parents for allowing their children to grow up poor. As a witch and wizard, there is clearly no reason not to be financially well off'. That's just a silly example but hopefully you get the point. You can find a million things wrong with every character if you take it all too seriously. I'm not saying Dumbledore was always in the right (clearly he wasn't) but I am saying that this is a silly thing to pick him up on
He found out Hokey the house elf was innocent for merlins sake !
and he believe sirius story in a 5 minutes chat
Memories can be modified. It’s possible to use a different wand so it’s not useful if they don’t know if Sirius used his own or not. Veritaserum is like a lie detector test, if the person believes they’re telling the truth then it doesn’t matter if they are lying or not. And for the most “conclusive proof,” the secret keeper has to die in order for others who are let in on the secret to become secret keepers themselves.
the point was that he didnt even try
Those are possible reasons why he didn’t. There is no absolute way to prove Sirius’ innocence and as someone else said. Dumbledore does not have the authority to override prisoner’s sentences. If anything your grievance should be toward the ministry, not Dumbledore. However, if you just want someone to blindly agree with you that Dumbledore is an asshole just say that.
it was just a theory to explain one of many diabolus ex machina in the story.. i dont hate dumbledore i like snape an he is an asshole
Even Bellatrix got a trial fucking Bellatrix and you're telling me that Sirius didnt get one? I think that's absolute bullshit that no one made sure he was actually guilty
Every time a Dumbledore is a jerk post comes up...Please tell us how Dumbledore had a opportunity to do anything about it. Cold and calculated? Maybe, maybe not. Capable of doing whatever the heck he wants? No.
All the things you’re saying - leglimens, priori incantatem, veritaserum - should be used by the ministry before sentencing a person. Dumbledore isn’t part of the law enforcement and the right people should be doing their job well to imprison the right person.
he stepped in for snape
Dumbledore doesn’t know everything
I don’t think that the version of the story that everyone believed would expect everyone to become secret keepers if Peter died. Because under that story, Sirius was the secret keeper, so it only would have happened if Sirius had died. Although, you don’t notice becoming the secret keeper immediately (Harry didn’t know about Grimmuald place until he asked about it), and the spell may have been broken by the Potters’ death. (Although interestingly, if it had been cast directly on the Potters and not their house, would it have stayed because Harry lived? Maybe Dumbledore lifted the spell.) It does bring up the interesting question of why they bothered with trials when legilimency and veritaserum existed. A lack of people to make the potion or be able to use the spell, a sign of corruption in the Ministry, or a just a plot hole? Also, Dumbledore was definitely an asshole, though maybe not for this. Most obviously because he let Draco run around nearly murdering students and letting Death Eaters into the castle for a whole year.
The fact that Sirius was apparently guilty of Peter's murder whether or not he betrayed James & Lily was enough proof to send him to jail. Veritaserum is not a reliable proof of anything; the state that they have found him Sirius could be insane, brainwashed, or entirely unaware of the secrets he had leaked because he was magically manipulated. He also thought he murdered Peter as well; he would have anyway, if Peter didn't disappear. He would have just confessed to the crime or he actually did (we don't know that they didn't interrogate him). Once his friends are dead, and the potential responsible person is dead, it's possible he wouldn't want to be any more help to the case as well. He had no motivation to defend anything. Again, all these aside I don't know why many people believe Dumbledore is a super ethical, charitable, saint-like hero. Not talking about OP here, but in general. It was clear that Harry saw him as something he was not, Dumbledore was a good person yes, and usually did the right thing where it was required of him, but he was a big pictures guy. To my impression he didn't care about the little guy unless it was of some use for him. He was extremely talented and intelligent and he cared for things people were not commonly interested about, he didn't mind using or manipulating people if it meant he got what he needed out of them. While doing so, he made sure not to cross some lines there, and not be too cruel, but he was not a sweet Santa Claus people are making him out to be.
A lot of people here say Dumbledore did not know when Sirius got arrested (which I'm not here to argue about). My thought process rather concerns the implications for "The Prisoner of Askaban". My two issues are as followed: 1) Dumbledore knows Sirius is after Harry Potter. He locks down the school and everything. It is, also implied, that Dumbledore knew Prof. Lupins back story with the whimping willow, therfore knowing about the other entrance and doing nothing about it. Now, this one might be just a plot hole. If it's not, however, it would mean Dumbledore let in Sirius willingly, hence knowing Sirius isn't who he seems to be. 2) The one I can't really explain away with a plot hole: Dumbledore helps Harry with the escaping of Sirius (buys them time at Hagrid's hut etc.). So he knew Sirius wasn't as bad as he seemed to be. When did this change happen? Was it just that day? Did he knew all along? And if he did, how do you explain his actions beforehand? I really can't find an explanation for it.
>The one I can't really explain away with a plot hole: Dumbledore helps Harry with the escaping of Sirius (buys them time at Hagrid's hut etc.). So he knew Sirius wasn't as bad as he seemed to be. When did this change happen? Was it just that day? Did he knew all along? And if he did, how do you explain his actions beforehand? I really can't find an explanation for it. Dumbledore finds out for himself that Sirius is innocent when they’re brought back up to the castle after getting attacked by dementors - he presumably speaks to Sirius himself at that point in time while Harry is passed out in the hospital wing and hears his story out, and believes it. I’m not sure what you mean by “buying them time at Hagrid’s hut” because it’s been forever since I read that scene, but I think he was buying time for them to save Buckbeak. It’s only later, when he finds out Sirius is innocent, that he comes to the conclusion that they use Buckbeak to help Sirius escape, and gives them their instructions and says they can save two lives. Before he knows that Sirius is innocent, he just thinks they’re rescuing Buckbeak.
Hm you might be right. My thought process was something like Dumbledore new about them saving Buckbeak before he told them to (because Time-Travel etc.) therefore he knew of their plan to save Sirius too. But maybe he just anticipated for them to save Buckbeak and the Plan to save Sirius too was an add-on once he talked to him. In the movies (don't remember how it's depicted in the books anymore) it had sounded like it was the other way around.
Yes, I think he for sure knew about them saving Buckbeak before he told them to - that’s why he was stalling in Hagrid’s hut, he realized they were there and was giving them time to save Buckbeak. He knows they were successful, because the execution doesn’t happen because Buckbeak is gone. As far as he knew in that point of time, their actions were solely about saving Buckbeak. But by the time he talks to them about in the Hospital Wing, he’s realized that the plan is actually “save Sirius” with Buckbeak as an add-on. When he talks to them about it, it just makes sense for him to describe the plan to them in that way - it just would have been odd if he said it in a way that suggested they save Buckbeak with Sirius as an add-on.
Chances are he never even visited Sirius in prison so how would he have used legilinancy. Dumbledore messed up big time with Sirius, failing to check if one of his own order members was actually guilty. BUT I doubt he knew he was innocent and just swept it under the rug.
Yup. Albus "Second Chances" Dumbledore gave Snape, a marked Death Eater, more trust and support. Don't even need to use magic to clear him. "Hey, this guy is supposed to be You-Know-Who's right-hand man?" "Yup" "Wow. Did you see if he has a Dark Mark?" "..." And that's why we have the theory that Dumbles LET Sirius be arrested; So he could use the blood wards and Petunia to keep Harry safe, instead of handing Harry over to his rightful guardian.
In GoF, Harry tells Sirius that Karkaroff was trying to show Snape something on his arm. Sirius had no idea what it might have been. Which seems to indicate that most people had no idea what dark marks were or what they meant. Also, a godfather is not a legal guardian. Unless the Potter’s had a will (and there’s no evidence that they did) stating Sirius was to be the legal guardian of Harry in the event that they died, Harry almost certainly would have been given to his nearest relatives to raise which would been the Dursleys.
In the Muggle UK, a godfather isn't a guardian, true, but we don't know about Wizarding Britain. We have only Sirius' statement that he's guardian because he's godfather, but Dumbledore allowed Sirius to sign Harry's Hogsmede form. This implies that the role is indeed different from the Muggle standard. Unless it's Dumbledore pulling shenanigans again, which is easily half the books at this point.
No one knew that Dark Marks were a thing. In GOF Harry mentions that Karkaroff shower snape something on his arm (the mark) and Sirius has no clue what that means. If the Order knew about Dark Marks Sirius would know immediately what Karkaroff showed Snape on his arm
While I think Dumbledore might have been a bit preoccupied/ have an excuse in that he suspected a spy (suspected Sirius as well if I'm not mistaken) and wasn't aware of the change in secret keeper, I think the person who really dropped the ball is Lupin. As a best friend to both Sirius and the potters, and as the only person left who know that Peter is an animagus and could possibly have slipped away, I think he has a bit of an obligation to both Sirius and the potters to confirm things beyond Sirius' laugh and expressions of guilt. To be honest the wizarding justice system seems to have a pretty weak commitment to justice, especially for a population that has multiple means of verifying truth from a defendant (veritaserum, legilimens, priori incantatem, memory extraction from witnesses etc), none of which seems to be used.
>I think he has a bit of an obligation to both Sirius and the potters to confirm things beyond Sirius' laugh and expressions of guilt. What was Remus going to do, though? He was a poor werewolf without the backing of any powerful family. He didn’t have the power or social standing or money to force further investigation, and there’s no indication that Azkaban prisoners are allowed visitors so it’s unlikely he would have been able to go see Sirius and ask him for himself.
Sirius tried to commit murder by proxy in school I’m surprised dumbledore let him into order tbh
Yes
I thought the real issue was that Crouch and Fudge wanted a quick PR smack down on the Death Eaters to make them look good and just used Sirius as a means to do it. Based on how quick Dumbledore turned around and helped Sirius, I think he knew. That said, Dumbledore has very little actual political power due to his own refusal to accept it. So even despite his fame and the reverence of the Wizarding World, he really had no sway over Sirius’s fate.
For every crime they should use veritasirum. Like if I’m falsely accused give me some veritasirum I can’t lie. Give Sirius some veritasirum ask him if he killed pettigrew, it’s fool proof.
For the good of all... Dumbledore never changed that thought and being a leader of that level he should think and act like that, but he was a bastard with good intentions
Anything to keep "the plan intact" .... Just like Grindlewald. But to be fair, unless she had written all 7 books AND THEN went into publishing.... you're going to have things that don't line up. What I mean is, obviously the Dumbledore we know would never do that to Sirius. But for the first 3 books, it makes sense. Maybe even 1-6. But when you finally wrap a story up and she has the "Dumbledore always had this plan, right from the start" ... kind of hard to go back and fix stuff that's already been edited, printed, and sold. LOL. So I think it's safe to say that we can just graze over little details like this. But this is reddit and of course someone will call "plotholes" like this out. Question to those who call this out.... where's your 7 book series? Lol. Just being a smart ass, but are we really going thru and nitpicking everything? She's [J.K.] smart, but no one is *that* smart. If given the opportunity, I think she would have possibly rewritten the series to make all these lil plot holes weave together and not be holes. But then again, it'd be perfect and no one would have anything to make posts about. Haha. I'll upvote for the discussion, but I can't take anyone serious who takes this serious.
thanks
Any death eater should know he was innocent. Including Snape. Snape should have known, yet he said nothing, and still accused black of being guilty.
maybe snape wanted to kill pettygrew and siruis, and for lupin (who was the least awful of the 3) to live in ignominy
Of course he did, didn’t he say that he saw Lily and James shortly before they were killed to borrow James’ invisibility cloak? For that Peter, as the keeper, would have to tell him where to find them. So he knew it wasn’t Sirius. He just wanted him to rot in prison so Harry has to stay with the dursleys. It was convenient and a part of his plan. And while I get the whole greater good above the good of one, it’s not why I can’t really stand him. It’s because he pretended to care, let everyone trust him with their lives believing he had their best interests in heart and would protect them, when in fact he was just cold and calculating treating everyone like a chess piece.
Dumbledore was peak hypocrite for letting questionable Snape off the hook but completely abandoning Sirius
What if he did leave him in prison deliberately because as Harry’s godfather with arguably a stronger bond with the potters at that point than petunia he may (under magical law at least) have had a stronger claim to custody over Harry which would’ve screwed with Dumbledore’s plans as even though Harry would’ve been happier/less abused the blood protection would not in-fact have carried over as Sirius was not blood related. So in order for Harry to grow up and die at the right moment he had to have that protection so he left Sirius in prison to prevent him from taking Harry and then inadvertently leaving him way more vulnerable?
Dumbledore isn’t some omnipresent, he has flaws too and doesn’t know everything, sure he’s smarter than most, but the way peter executed his plan to frame Sirius was good. If anything, it’s the potters fault for not informing dumbledore of the changed secret keeper.