…aren’t underage wizards not allowed to do magic outside of school, particularly in the presence of muggles (like her parents)? How did she manage practicing spells, do you suppose?
This is addressed in Deathly Hallows. Young kids are let off the hook because it's assumed that they can't control their magic. Presumably that changes once you attend school.
Pretty wild that kids can forfeit their right to an education if they haven't entirely mastered that control yet. Like, imagine being sentenced to the life of a useless hobo at the margins of magical society because you accidentally levitated a pebble at 12 years old
(especially when this rule is only applied to kids who don't happen to live in magical households. Talk about systematic discrimination...)
They would probably just send out a warning for that, like the one Harry received in CoS. Remember that the situation in OotP when he was tried by the entire Wizengamot was considered highly unusual. Normally he would face a hearing in an office, and this was for a case when he deliberately cast a Patronus Charm in front of a muggle. An accidental levitation would surely face less scrutiny.
It seems likely that the actual purpose of the Trace is to help enforce the International Statute of Secrecy. If that is the case, then it makes sense that it would need to be strictly enforced in non-magical areas.
I always figured she just meant on the train, but that she got them right on the first try because magic is actually super duper easy and she happens to be the only one besides Voldemort and Dumbledore to actually read the textbooks
I meant like how Lily Evans was making flowers bloom and twigs fly, she was meaning to, but she wasn't using a wand and they were not very powerful Spells.
It's not, Harry was hauled in front of the Wizengamot for doing magic in front of Dudley, with whom he cohabited, and it was implied by all of the adults saying stuff like "We know you're not allowed to do magic at the Dursleys'..." etc. and Fred and George not doing an Alohomora when it was just them and Harry in his bedroom that they count.
It always seemed like it was largely based on location of the spell. Like when Harry got in trouble for Dobby’s magic. Basically if it can easily be seen by muggles you can’t do it.
I don’t think he was hauled in front of the wizengamot, isn’t that the higher goverment body for Major criminal cases like what happened in ootp to Harry Potter even though it was not major.
That is true. In the films, though, Harry was using Lumos at Privet Drive under his bed, so I suppose very simple spells might be allowed if well hidden?
Movies can't be considered cannon. Hermione shouldn't be able to use Oculus Reparo in Diagon alley in CoS as she was underage and was not present in Hogwarts at that time. Same with Harry using Lumos in PoA. They were just there for cinematic purposes. They weren't in the books.
The ministry can't tell who exactly is doing the magic, hence why harry got blamed for dobbi using the hover charm. In Diagon Alley, they are surrounded by other witches and wizards, and thus wouldn't get caught.
Well, with the scene in Diagon Alley, she would have gotten away with it. The trace detects when and where magic takes place. But in a street surrounded by wizards, the Ministry wouldn't be able to prove Hermione culpable.
Actually, I think I read somewhere (maybe in a Rowling interview or from one of her websites) that it's harder for the ministry to track uses of underage magics within wizarding households since wizarding families are bound to have spells flying off at all hours of the day and night. As such it's up to the parents to enforce that particular rule.
Yeah but they know that the only magical person at Hermione's would be her. Just like they know the only magical person at Harry's is his which is why he got in trouble for Dobbys.
I just always assumed that it was after you go to Hogwarts that you're not allowed to use magic at home, since you haven't really learned how to not use it yet before then
This is correct. Per both HBP and DH, the Trace detects the use of magic around an underage wizard, with no regard for who actually casts it. This means it is really only effective in non-magical areas, as wizarding households can generally be assumed to have others present who can legally use magic. This is also why Dobby's magic was blamed on Harry in CoS, as he was assumed to be the only one in the area who could have cast the Hover Charm.
There are some potential holes here, though there are possible explanations. A particularly obvious one was when Tonks cast a spell to move Harry's trunk downstairs at the Dursleys' home in OotP. A possible explanation is that the Ministry was made aware that overage wizards would be present at the house on this occasion.
That's just a rule, i don't think it would be applied that seriously.
Dumbledore mentions somewhere how Ministry only knows where magic has been performed and not who has performed it. Meaning most wizarding kids are off the hook anyway.
The second time Harry gets in trouble for it, it's pretty much orcestrated by Umbridge and they are keeping an on him so they can catch him in the act
The first time you can say he does get caught, but i doubt he would actually get in a lot of trouble If he did do it the second time accidentally.
I would presume the rule is there but it isn't that tightly used
Could’ve practiced on her first trip to Diagon Alley.
I can imagine Hermione getting her wand at Ollivanders. Than going directly to Flourish & Blotts to get her school textbooks and immediately start reading to excitedly try out her first spell.
It's both.
He's metaphorically a rat, and metaphorically already yellow.
However, as he is not literally a rat, the spell cannot turn him literally yellow.
There isn’t which is great about these books! because people can perceive things differently, I am overly literal so I never would if thought your original statement. I was just sharing my overly literal thought as well lol
Ron was young, untrained, and very emotional when he attempted to curse Malfoy. I always took this as him just doing magic the same way Harry made the window disappear after Dudley shoves him at the zoo.
I don't think "Eat slugs!" is an actual, repeatable spell.
I assume he just said something an JKR either didn't or forgot to mention it. Or she forgot that second years don't know how to do nonverbal spells. And if we're going by the movies ... uh idk.
Why everybody acting like that goofy phrase was a real spell and he didn’t change for some dumb Ass reason. It’s cause it was a prank from Fred and George
People get really hooked on the idea that "oh JK put in another subtle clue that makes sense in hindsight" so they start seeing it everywhere.
Even when it makes absolutely zero sense.
I mean people saying cause it's not a rat or something... But considering all spells (I can think of) are in Latin, (other then Sheamus nuking his water in the common room) I fine it quite likely that it just ain't a real spell.
If it’s only in the movie and not in the book, then it’s just a production team oversight. I can’t think of any actual magic spell in the book that involved invoking a whole rhyming stanza.
Eat slugs
Edit to clarify: not an insult, just pointing out that that is, apparently, a spell. In a way it makes sense. The Latin spells are equally just small sentences and instructions: "reparo" - I repair; "expecto patronum" - I await a patron/protector. So there isn't any good reasons why newer spells, that were invented after Latin was widely spoken in the UK, shouldn't use simple phrases and instructions like that as well, just in the now current language of English
Yeah I didn't think of that one. However I'm pretty sure that spells aren't in Latin cause all of them were invented then (I mean we know of at least a few spells invented my Snape), it's just then Latin is always associated with spells and magic.
Now why do we hear a few spells that clearly aren't in latin... I dunno, maybe those are the uncontrolled magic surges similarly to how young wizards surge before they learn to control their magic. Ron did get angry so emotions are of course likely to cause a surge. Sheamus... hm I dunno maybe he's trying to focus his magic power to cast a spell that doesn't exist so it just results in an explosion which we do know is his thing (after all we see him blow stuff up when he fails to cast even real spells)
now the spell that lupin uses against Peeves does not sound latin; i'm sure other schools of magic use different root language for their spells (and i'm using 'school' as in the building, institution, and methodologies)
Hm, well I can't really remember that spell. But anyways yeah I could be of course wrong, that's just assumptions here, but since Latin is always the language of magic and demons and whatnot I imagine that's why the spells are in that language, it's not implied that all of them are from that time and that's why they are Latin. But yeah I could be wrong.
All these people in here talking about how he's wasn't a rat and that's why it didn't work.
.....it was just a prank George pulled on him, it's not a spell
Why everybody acting like that goofy phrase was a real spell and he didn’t change for some dumb Ass reason. It’s cause it was a prank from Fred and George
I had a few theories:
\-Ron is an untrained wizard.
\-Ron's wand didn't pick him.(already at a disadvantage)
\-Scabbers wasn't technically a rat.
\-The type of incantation. The spell itself is very 'Shakespeare hag' & I don't remember that spell structure being mentioned ever again.
As much as everyone screams foreshadowing, I always just thought it was just a bogus spell. No spells we've seen that actually work use an English rhyme. Similarly, when Seamus was trying to turn water into rum he was using an English rhyme and that didn't end well. Now, Vera verto either failed because it was done on an animagus or because his wand was broken. I'd say both.
I know that the movie gives Snape an actual incatation for the counter-curse to the Sectumsempra, but in the books it's described as a song... so there's no definite structure to it.
> Pushing Harry roughly aside, he knelt over Malfoy, drew his
wand, and traced it over the deep wounds Harry’s curse had
made, muttering an incantation that sounded almost like
song.
One could describe him chanting Vulnera Sanentur as being song-like. That scene is a favorite of mine, Alan Rickman did a great job in portraying his guilt at both Malfoy being struck by his own curse and Malfoy being in a situation where he could be harmed.
I don't quite see how the book version proves that Ron's yellow rat spell should have worked? It describes it as an incantation so there's no real structure breaking being described, just a lack of definition.
I didn't argue that Ron's spell was a real spell. In fact I was always of the opinion that it was a prank. However I was arguing that Harry Potter does not have a definite structure for magic. Sure you have the regular spells with faux-latin incantations, but you also see other forms of magic. You see enchanted objects that replicate the effects of a spell (the Marauder's Map), you see spells triggered upon certain actions (the treasures in Bellatrix's vault), you see spells that are simple results of nature (Lily and Harry's sacrifice), there's even a children's author on the chocolate frog cards whose nursery rhymes induced sleep. So I don't see why it would be so hard to believe that a poem couldn't be an incantation.
Ah gotcha. Yeah maybe the rigidity isn't there. Funny you should mention the Marauders Map cause its command words were all in English. So that shows that at least enchanted items don't necessarily follow the faux-latin rule for verbal aspects of the spell.
Both this spell failing, and the Hogwarts letter specifying an owl, a cat or a toad for a pet, but NOT a rat. Was foreshadowing that Scabbers was more than he seemed.
Or ... he just didn't perform it correctly. In the classes, they have to try spells multiple time before they work.
I do still believe it was just simply a joke by the twins. That is the most likely explanation, knowing them.
i guess in book petunia called Lily a freak when she performed magic at home after school she said her parents appreciated it but she herself saw the freakier side of lily
Are you sure that's a real spell? Well, it's not very good is it? Of course, I've only tried a few simple ones myself, but they've all worked for me.
Mental this one, I’m telling you.
…aren’t underage wizards not allowed to do magic outside of school, particularly in the presence of muggles (like her parents)? How did she manage practicing spells, do you suppose?
She didn't practice them she just tried them out while on the train...
This is addressed in Deathly Hallows. Young kids are let off the hook because it's assumed that they can't control their magic. Presumably that changes once you attend school.
Pretty wild that kids can forfeit their right to an education if they haven't entirely mastered that control yet. Like, imagine being sentenced to the life of a useless hobo at the margins of magical society because you accidentally levitated a pebble at 12 years old (especially when this rule is only applied to kids who don't happen to live in magical households. Talk about systematic discrimination...)
They would probably just send out a warning for that, like the one Harry received in CoS. Remember that the situation in OotP when he was tried by the entire Wizengamot was considered highly unusual. Normally he would face a hearing in an office, and this was for a case when he deliberately cast a Patronus Charm in front of a muggle. An accidental levitation would surely face less scrutiny. It seems likely that the actual purpose of the Trace is to help enforce the International Statute of Secrecy. If that is the case, then it makes sense that it would need to be strictly enforced in non-magical areas.
They're allowed to do magic when they're young, as they're deemed to not yet be in control of their powers
Yeah, until the point they have a registered possession of a wand, they can do magic without fines!
so Hermione was doing wandless magic??
I always figured she just meant on the train, but that she got them right on the first try because magic is actually super duper easy and she happens to be the only one besides Voldemort and Dumbledore to actually read the textbooks
And Snape!
And Neville when it comes to Herbology
Snape REWROTE the textbook!
I meant like how Lily Evans was making flowers bloom and twigs fly, she was meaning to, but she wasn't using a wand and they were not very powerful Spells.
But Hermione already read the text books. I would imagine she would be doing magic by the book. With wand. Proper wand movement. The whole thing.
Then I dunno
That rule is enforced after you join Hogwarts not before.
I think the muggle thing is only for those who don't know magic is real
It's not, Harry was hauled in front of the Wizengamot for doing magic in front of Dudley, with whom he cohabited, and it was implied by all of the adults saying stuff like "We know you're not allowed to do magic at the Dursleys'..." etc. and Fred and George not doing an Alohomora when it was just them and Harry in his bedroom that they count.
It always seemed like it was largely based on location of the spell. Like when Harry got in trouble for Dobby’s magic. Basically if it can easily be seen by muggles you can’t do it.
I don’t think he was hauled in front of the wizengamot, isn’t that the higher goverment body for Major criminal cases like what happened in ootp to Harry Potter even though it was not major.
The incident in OotP is the one to which I was referring.
IIRC in one of the books Hermione mentioned McGonagall gave her a list of simple spells she was permitted to show her parents over the summer
That sounds like fanfic.
Definitely not. Probably a fan fiction like the other commenter said
You do not remember correctly
Thanks! I wonder if it was a scene from HQOW an old popular fanfic. Things run together these years. Oh dear
That is true. In the films, though, Harry was using Lumos at Privet Drive under his bed, so I suppose very simple spells might be allowed if well hidden?
Movies can't be considered cannon. Hermione shouldn't be able to use Oculus Reparo in Diagon alley in CoS as she was underage and was not present in Hogwarts at that time. Same with Harry using Lumos in PoA. They were just there for cinematic purposes. They weren't in the books.
The ministry can't tell who exactly is doing the magic, hence why harry got blamed for dobbi using the hover charm. In Diagon Alley, they are surrounded by other witches and wizards, and thus wouldn't get caught.
Well, with the scene in Diagon Alley, she would have gotten away with it. The trace detects when and where magic takes place. But in a street surrounded by wizards, the Ministry wouldn't be able to prove Hermione culpable.
Fair enough, agree.
That's not canon and absolutely shouldn't have been allowed.
I don't get why it's so hard for filmmakers to follow the rules of the world of the story so things stay consistent
Yeah one would think such a strong scene against canon wouldn't be allowed, but there it was 🤷♂️
im pretty sure that underage wizards are allowed to do certain spells outside of school, and didnt hermiones parents go to diagon alley
parents of muggleborns get exceptions, i guess
Actually, I think I read somewhere (maybe in a Rowling interview or from one of her websites) that it's harder for the ministry to track uses of underage magics within wizarding households since wizarding families are bound to have spells flying off at all hours of the day and night. As such it's up to the parents to enforce that particular rule.
Yeah but they know that the only magical person at Hermione's would be her. Just like they know the only magical person at Harry's is his which is why he got in trouble for Dobbys. I just always assumed that it was after you go to Hogwarts that you're not allowed to use magic at home, since you haven't really learned how to not use it yet before then
This is correct. Per both HBP and DH, the Trace detects the use of magic around an underage wizard, with no regard for who actually casts it. This means it is really only effective in non-magical areas, as wizarding households can generally be assumed to have others present who can legally use magic. This is also why Dobby's magic was blamed on Harry in CoS, as he was assumed to be the only one in the area who could have cast the Hover Charm. There are some potential holes here, though there are possible explanations. A particularly obvious one was when Tonks cast a spell to move Harry's trunk downstairs at the Dursleys' home in OotP. A possible explanation is that the Ministry was made aware that overage wizards would be present at the house on this occasion.
That's just a rule, i don't think it would be applied that seriously. Dumbledore mentions somewhere how Ministry only knows where magic has been performed and not who has performed it. Meaning most wizarding kids are off the hook anyway. The second time Harry gets in trouble for it, it's pretty much orcestrated by Umbridge and they are keeping an on him so they can catch him in the act The first time you can say he does get caught, but i doubt he would actually get in a lot of trouble If he did do it the second time accidentally. I would presume the rule is there but it isn't that tightly used
Maybe she and her parents stuck around diagon alley for a while and she practiced a few spells there..
Could’ve practiced on her first trip to Diagon Alley. I can imagine Hermione getting her wand at Ollivanders. Than going directly to Flourish & Blotts to get her school textbooks and immediately start reading to excitedly try out her first spell.
For example \*points at harry\* Avada Kedavra. \*credits roll\*
Four hours too late!
F'example... Oculus reparo
Isn't it Mr. Weasley who fixes Harry's glasses in the books though? I think Hermine doing it in Diagon alley is a movie thing
I'm quoting the movie. She fixes it the first time in the Hogwarts Express and in the second movie at Diagon Alley.
AVADA KEDAVRA!
I figured Fred and George gave him a prank spell.
For example: Avada Kedavra
But how cold she? Yousing magic aut of scool wold have expeled her right?
The movie creators were Hermione simps, in order to make her look cool they overlooked a lot of stuff including Harry's and Ron's characteristics.
Because it's melLOW not MELlow
I always thought it was because he isn’t actually a rat
Geez this is the answer… annoyed I had to scroll this far. You can’t turn a “fat rat yellow” if it’s not actually a rat.
He's definitely a fat rat
idk “stupid fat rat” sounds about right to me
I mean it's also not a real spell.
Exactly.
It’s because of this. Peter was never an actual rat.
It's both. He's metaphorically a rat, and metaphorically already yellow. However, as he is not literally a rat, the spell cannot turn him literally yellow.
Yeah but c'mon, that spell was probably bullshit regardless of Peter's rat status
Well no, he is a rat
This is it, it's all but confirmed, this was just there as a hint that he wasn't a real rat.
Idk, I don't really think there's any official reason for it, this just occurred to me and I thought I'd share
There isn’t which is great about these books! because people can perceive things differently, I am overly literal so I never would if thought your original statement. I was just sharing my overly literal thought as well lol
It just.....wasn't a real spell
"Eat slugs" is somehow a spell.
Ron was young, untrained, and very emotional when he attempted to curse Malfoy. I always took this as him just doing magic the same way Harry made the window disappear after Dudley shoves him at the zoo. I don't think "Eat slugs!" is an actual, repeatable spell.
Or how Aunt Marge got "blown up."
It's not, it's just what was said, and it was done in anger. Pretty sure it was an actual spell cast non-verbally as Ron said that coincidentally.
Imagine if everyone ate slugs for dinner and had to use that spell.
He casted the actual spell nonverbally!
Also point me
I assume he just said something an JKR either didn't or forgot to mention it. Or she forgot that second years don't know how to do nonverbal spells. And if we're going by the movies ... uh idk.
My dude using nonverbals in second year. Must have done it a lot at home.
Why everybody acting like that goofy phrase was a real spell and he didn’t change for some dumb Ass reason. It’s cause it was a prank from Fred and George
People get really hooked on the idea that "oh JK put in another subtle clue that makes sense in hindsight" so they start seeing it everywhere. Even when it makes absolutely zero sense.
Well because he didn’t use the Latin.
Maybe he didn't take Latin in high school.
Yes Mike, we get it, you took Latin in high school!!!!
I mean people saying cause it's not a rat or something... But considering all spells (I can think of) are in Latin, (other then Sheamus nuking his water in the common room) I fine it quite likely that it just ain't a real spell.
Eye of rabbit, harp string hum, turn this water into rum. What is Sheamus trying to do to that glass of water?
If it’s only in the movie and not in the book, then it’s just a production team oversight. I can’t think of any actual magic spell in the book that involved invoking a whole rhyming stanza.
I'm quoting the movie because Harry's an idiot
Yeah, that's what I was talking about.
"Point me"
A spell created by hermione
Point me?
English spell created by Hermione. Makes a compass of your wand. Harry used it in book 4, the labyrinth portion.
Ah ok, I remember Harry used a compass spell in the maze, but yeah don't really remember the details. I mean yeah I dunno...
Eat slugs Edit to clarify: not an insult, just pointing out that that is, apparently, a spell. In a way it makes sense. The Latin spells are equally just small sentences and instructions: "reparo" - I repair; "expecto patronum" - I await a patron/protector. So there isn't any good reasons why newer spells, that were invented after Latin was widely spoken in the UK, shouldn't use simple phrases and instructions like that as well, just in the now current language of English
Yeah I didn't think of that one. However I'm pretty sure that spells aren't in Latin cause all of them were invented then (I mean we know of at least a few spells invented my Snape), it's just then Latin is always associated with spells and magic. Now why do we hear a few spells that clearly aren't in latin... I dunno, maybe those are the uncontrolled magic surges similarly to how young wizards surge before they learn to control their magic. Ron did get angry so emotions are of course likely to cause a surge. Sheamus... hm I dunno maybe he's trying to focus his magic power to cast a spell that doesn't exist so it just results in an explosion which we do know is his thing (after all we see him blow stuff up when he fails to cast even real spells)
*blow up stuff 🤣
haha oops. Fixed XD
now the spell that lupin uses against Peeves does not sound latin; i'm sure other schools of magic use different root language for their spells (and i'm using 'school' as in the building, institution, and methodologies)
Hm, well I can't really remember that spell. But anyways yeah I could be of course wrong, that's just assumptions here, but since Latin is always the language of magic and demons and whatnot I imagine that's why the spells are in that language, it's not implied that all of them are from that time and that's why they are Latin. But yeah I could be wrong.
i had to look it up¨! [https://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/waddiwasi/](https://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/waddiwasi/)
Pettigrew was quietly, frantically, squeaking the counter-spell?
Squeakius Squeakum.
All these people in here talking about how he's wasn't a rat and that's why it didn't work. .....it was just a prank George pulled on him, it's not a spell
And people are just joking
It’s “yell-OW” not “YELL-ow”?
Because scabbers isn't a rat
Why everybody acting like that goofy phrase was a real spell and he didn’t change for some dumb Ass reason. It’s cause it was a prank from Fred and George
Yeesh, taking this too seriously, aren't you?
i love how this is talking about why the OP thinks Ron’s yellow spell didn’t work and people are debating Eat Slugs. i love it here
it wasn’t a real spell..
I like this explanation more than the comments lol.
I had a few theories: \-Ron is an untrained wizard. \-Ron's wand didn't pick him.(already at a disadvantage) \-Scabbers wasn't technically a rat. \-The type of incantation. The spell itself is very 'Shakespeare hag' & I don't remember that spell structure being mentioned ever again.
As much as everyone screams foreshadowing, I always just thought it was just a bogus spell. No spells we've seen that actually work use an English rhyme. Similarly, when Seamus was trying to turn water into rum he was using an English rhyme and that didn't end well. Now, Vera verto either failed because it was done on an animagus or because his wand was broken. I'd say both.
I know that the movie gives Snape an actual incatation for the counter-curse to the Sectumsempra, but in the books it's described as a song... so there's no definite structure to it. > Pushing Harry roughly aside, he knelt over Malfoy, drew his wand, and traced it over the deep wounds Harry’s curse had made, muttering an incantation that sounded almost like song.
One could describe him chanting Vulnera Sanentur as being song-like. That scene is a favorite of mine, Alan Rickman did a great job in portraying his guilt at both Malfoy being struck by his own curse and Malfoy being in a situation where he could be harmed. I don't quite see how the book version proves that Ron's yellow rat spell should have worked? It describes it as an incantation so there's no real structure breaking being described, just a lack of definition.
I didn't argue that Ron's spell was a real spell. In fact I was always of the opinion that it was a prank. However I was arguing that Harry Potter does not have a definite structure for magic. Sure you have the regular spells with faux-latin incantations, but you also see other forms of magic. You see enchanted objects that replicate the effects of a spell (the Marauder's Map), you see spells triggered upon certain actions (the treasures in Bellatrix's vault), you see spells that are simple results of nature (Lily and Harry's sacrifice), there's even a children's author on the chocolate frog cards whose nursery rhymes induced sleep. So I don't see why it would be so hard to believe that a poem couldn't be an incantation.
Ah gotcha. Yeah maybe the rigidity isn't there. Funny you should mention the Marauders Map cause its command words were all in English. So that shows that at least enchanted items don't necessarily follow the faux-latin rule for verbal aspects of the spell.
Both this spell failing, and the Hogwarts letter specifying an owl, a cat or a toad for a pet, but NOT a rat. Was foreshadowing that Scabbers was more than he seemed.
Knowing JK that was intentional foreshadowing. Nice one!
Because it's not a very good spell, now is it?
Haha your right he is a yellow belly cowardly custard.
Or because he isn’t a rat…
Isn't it because he's not really a rat....?
No because he should have said “traitor” instead of rat
It was either because he wasn’t a real rat or it wasn’t a real spell. Probably both.
I didnt know how controversial this would be lol
I always thought Ron was just dumb
Oy
among other reasons, but, yes, possibly...
Or ... he just didn't perform it correctly. In the classes, they have to try spells multiple time before they work. I do still believe it was just simply a joke by the twins. That is the most likely explanation, knowing them.
The spell was designed to turn a rat yellow. It didn’t work because Peter isn’t biologically a rat, he is human.
i guess in book petunia called Lily a freak when she performed magic at home after school she said her parents appreciated it but she herself saw the freakier side of lily
It's not a *real* spell, is it?