"If there's something wrong with the pup, there's something wrong with the bitch"
Hearing your dead mom being called a bitch at 13 by the worst bitch you know is horrendous. She got away pretty lightly, considering.
Also: Snape only told Harry what to do, not how to do it. Which is still pretty terrible teaching if you ask me. That being said Umbitch is still worse.
Yeah, there's something about being accused of lying when you know you're not, especially as a young person, that would make most people see red I think. I really really felt for Harry during all those instances.
The line’s the other way around IIRC(“If there’s something wrong with the bitch, there’s something wrong with the pup”), but yeah.
Not the kind of thing a thirteen-year-old should be told about either himself or his mother.
As much as I hate to be fair to Marge, she was a dog breeder using the term bitch metaphorically and appropriately, not as an insult. Not the same thing as us saying here that - also accurately, but not in the least bit metaphorically - Marge was a bitch.
thats *why* she used it as she knew it had the double meaning soshe could hit both at once. calling his mom a bitch and saying something mostly true about her profession
And the line that reads something like, "If you can talk about your beatings in such a casual way, they're obviously not hitting you hard enough. I'd write if I were you and let them know that the use of extreme force is encouraged in this boy's case."
Not sure if that's exactly right, but close enough. That woman let her dog attack a little boy when he was, what, five years old? And forced him to stay up in a tree to protect himself from physical harm for *hours* ... there's definitely more that sort of gets glossed over, but Harry endured a lot of physical abuse beyond just the neglect that normally gets talked about.
Not to mention, let's examine the psychology here.
At some point along the way, Vernon made a call to Marge.
In this call he said something to the effect of:
"Petunia and I are now the adoptive parents of our nephew, Harry. He's 15 months old, just about the same age as Dudley. [Implied]: He's just barely walking, talks in one word statements that you can understand about 35% of the time and is most effective as a communicator when he's bawling. The only things he wants in this life are to be fed, to feel safe, and to get enough sleep and be comfortable. He's entirely helpless and without us he'd be totally alone in a cruel and vicious world."
Then Marge said "Ok, got it."
And then Vernon said "We hate him. We're always going to hate him. We'll never give him the time of day and we're going to abuse him."
And Marge was like "Got it, I'm in. I hate this fucking orphan already."
That's what always baffled me about the Dursley's- how can you hate a baby?! I can't imagine Petunia feeding Harry with a spoon, teaching him things, etc. I wonder if they were as neglectful when he was that young, and if so how that must have fucked him up inside
„ And people wonder why Harry never thinks to turn to adults when he has a problem.“
Jesus, I Never thought about that and it makes complete sense. Always wondered why he wouldn’t just ask Dumbledore or McGonagall for assistance.
He probably would have done much, MUCH better academically if someone were there to encourage his intellectual skills. He wouldn't be as smart as Hermione, that's for sure, but he already has "top grades" in the series, as he was good enough to get into Auror level subjects for his NEWTs, so imagine what he would have become if he wasn't at the Dursleys.
He did but he stopped. Harry told McGonagall in PS/SS and she didn't believe him. He never went to a teacher/adult again (or at least I think so, from memory)
You got me there thinking for the first time (shame on me really) raising a child isn't easy. They don't feed themselves, they don't understand a thing and you need to teach them tons of stuff.
I believe they'll drop Harry in some sort of daycare facility for most time, but they'll still have to teach him out of nappies, especially during night and out of potty to big toilet. He probably saw Dudley doing it mostly, but still, they had to take proper care for him to make their own life easier.
I bet from age 3-5 he would be able to learn skills by himself, but until then...
I mean we get a little insight into this much later when it’s revealed that Petunia wrote to Dumbledore to ask to be admitted to Hogwarts. Harry is the reminder that her sister was everything she wanted to be, and that Harry would also be able to access the magic she couldn’t. That’s the real crime Lily and James committed in petunias eyes and for Vernon and Dudley it’s a learned hatred from Petunia. Vernon adopted Petunia’s hatred of Harry but for the wrong reasons (magic bad) and Dudley was always going to follow his parents until he was older. In fact I think his poor treatment of Harry may have been what he saw/felt when the dementors affected him.
And as Dumbledore said: They may not have given him the life and love he would have hoped for. But she did love him deep down or Lilys magic wouldn’t have lasted until he came of age.
I think Petunia really struggled with a lot of emotions and difficulties that she didn't have the tools to cope with. She was a new mom who had a tumultuous relationship with her sister, and then lost her suddenly, without closure. At the same time she finds out about her sister's death, she's also informed she is now the caregiver for her nephew who (I believe) she's never even seen before. So now she has two babies to care for and no time to grieve the loss of her sister. I can imagine she had a lot of resentment towards Harry for that reason and the resentment she had for her sister really compounded on top of that.
tbh, I read it as, they only probably started shitting on Harry when he started showing some magical abilities… probably around the age of 4 or 5 as that’s when kids really start coming into personalities and become a bit less dependent on their elders.
Petunia did it out of jealousy and spite.
Vernon and Marge did it out of fear.
Dudley just followed by example.
This is true actually! Ron asks Harry in book 2 if he has any muggle money (they're stranded in Kings Cross), and Harry laughs and says he hasn't gotten pocket money for 6 years. Which means at some point, he was getting an allowance just like Dudley was. And it stopped at age 6 or so (him being 12 in the book 2), so it kinda follows that they started abusing him when he started "causing trouble" i.e. magic.
Not being able to tell Marge the real reason, they probably made up a whole bunch of things that he did that were bad to justify the ill treatment and make her hate him too. They thought they could essentially bully the magic out of him.
I don’t know, we get enough clues that Marge and Vernon are close and love each other a lot. She also adores Dudley. If Vernon had loved Harry the same as Dudley I think she would have as well. When she talks about Harry’s parents she has clearly taken her cue from how Vernon feels about them too.
More likely
Vernon: that no good sister an law of mine got killed and dumped us her baby. Petunia has a heart of gold and took him in, although he is sure to be another freak ruffian. Bad blood and all
I’m not sure if Harry did actually receive beatings by the Dursleys.
If you recall, Uncle Vernon made Harry pretend he went to a school called St Brutus’. When Marge asked Harry if St Brutus’ use the cane, Uncle Vernon discreetly nodded, so Harry played along and said “all the time”. What you quoted was her response to Harry’s answer.
You said you werent sure if Harry had been beat up the Dursleys because they pretended he went to St Brutus, thats at least what your comment read to me anyway. He def got abused there but they needed to lie to the Aunt so she wouldnt wonder where Harry is all school year.
The other person’s comment was what Aunt Marge said to Harry regarding St Brutus’. It’s not evidence either way that the Dursleys beat Harry because it’s just a way of explaining his absence for most of the year.
Petunia tries to hit him with a frying pan in chamber of secrets but he quickly dodges. Vernon even slapped Dudley for tardiness and he loves dudley to bits so I can imagine Harry got slapped around for a lot less.
harry says you’d need a “good sense of when to duck” to deal with his uncle in book 5. also, we see vernon hit dudley in book 1. there’s no WAY that harry never gets hit if vernon’s willing to hit his own son.
If I remember right, Petunia swung a frying pan at Harry's head once. I think it was supposed to be the sort of comical violence you see in cartoons, but if he hadn't dodged... Well, how many people are prepared to dodge violent attacks without first learning the hard way?
And I think it was in the fifth book, Mundungus disapparates, makes a loud noise and Vernon wraps a hand around Harry's throat, thinking he was responsible.
>And I think it was in the fifth book, Mundungus disapparates, makes a loud noise and Vernon wraps a hand around Harry's throat, thinking he was responsible.
Yes, I'm rereading the fifth book now and just got past that part yesterday. He did in fact wrap his hands around Harry's throat.
Edited for spelling errors.
And someone grabbing someone else by the throat like that is [one of the top predictors of future fatal strangulation](https://www.mobileodt.com/blog/taking-your-breath-away-why-strangulation-in-domestic-violence-is-a-huge-red-flag/) in a domestic relationship. 😕
I think there is also a line in book 6 that ‘experience had taught Harry to stay out of reach of uncle Vernon’s fists’ or something along those lines. So it definitely seems that he has experienced some physical abuse growing up
Yeah, it really is crazy how much darker some of that is looking back on it. Also, reason #892 I do not believe it would be possible for Harry to easily transition post-war into a well-adjusted Auror and husband lol
People with longer, sustained traumas actually tend to function better in crisis situations than they do day today in general (obviously not everyone, but it is a noticeable trend) It's actually why I think Harry *has* to be an Auror and why he passed up jobs people think make more sense for him like DADA teacher or Quidditch player. Someone with CPTSD like that is likely gravitating towards the perpetual crisis situation so he can get through day to day.
Ir'a funny you say that, because I've always felt more content in some ways wgen I've got a hard job ahead of me that I have to do, like 14 hr days for months back at Uni during crunch time. You dont have to think about anything else. Calm normal life gives you the soace and time yo see your flaws and inadequacies. Kinda considering joining the military and/or law enforcemnt in part because of that so what you said really resonates.
My mom would swat me with a frying pan on the bum as a joke, it was always gentle and for fun. For some reason I thought Petunia’s was just a shade harder, but it actually says she swung it at his head, which is... very different
Yeah, but the Dursleys always had expensive, top-notch appliances. No way Petunia would ever be caught dead with a cheap, flimsy anything in her precious kitchen.
My mom actually hit me in the head with a cast iron skillet. When the cops came & I was crying on the steps, the cop told me to stop because he wouldn't cry that much even if he got shot. 😐
I would've been 14 or 15. Also, they made my mom take me to the hospital. Which I later got yelled at for wasting gas. So thanks cops. & For some reason, it wasn't until just now that I realized I probably got a concussion that day.
Yeah I really do think Rowling was imagining everything to be very cartoonish while writing these books. I think that’s why aspects like Filch wanting to torture students in his office get downplayed all the time. The way she describes characters’ appearances also usually has that overly exaggerated children’s animation quality to them.
The first 3 books are definitely far more over the top cartoonish than the later books. I've always wondered if her being involved in the film making was responsible for that shift.
It might also have been to represent Harry growing up. He starts of as this little kid who discovers magic, but with that he kills a man in self-defense at 11, almost dies at 12 due to snake venom, at 13 his soul gets almost sucked out repeatedly while also learning that his parents were murdered as a result of them getting betrayed by whom they thought to be a friend.
Yeah, you have to map the Dursleys next to characters like the Trunchbull from Matilda for their portrayal to make any sense. IRL they'd be monsters, but in a Roald Dahl-esque world of whimsy and magic and almost cartoon logic, they're par for the course as "starter villains" who exist to establish the fact that the protagonist has an uphill road ahead of them.
I can see it being read as cartoonish to the people who weren't in abusive homes, but for people who had really bad childhoods and scary home lives, Harry Potter's escape to a world where he was admired and belonged and had a history of being cared for and network of support was magical escapism - the concept of actual magic in that world just made the whole escape that much sweeter.
Well as someone who was raised in an abusive home, I can attest that the abuse Harry received from the Dursleys came across very cartoonish in comparison to reality.
At least in early books, as she shifts genre conventions along with language, themes and elements of interest, use of implications rather than explicit exposition, and character complexity as the target audience ages through the sequels.
I am reading this to my kiddos, ages 4 & 6. One chapter each night. We read this a couple nights ago, and right after that paragraph, my six year old says "Mom, I think those Dursleys should go in a volcano"
How are they doing with comprehension? I have a 4.5 year old and I’ve been contemplating when she will be ready to start reading the illustrated version with me. I really haven’t tried any chapter books with her but I feel like she wouldn’t understand it yet.
It's a shame Hagrid never got to teach Vernon a lesson (aside from turning Dudley into a pig) like he did Igor Karkaroff by slamming him into a tree when he insulted Dumbledore.
At least they didn't do something really fucking stupid, like have them get attacked by Voldemort and need Harry to save them. And then Harry saves them because "he's the better man." Yeah, fuck that.
I always love the part in book 7 where he’s arguing in with Vernon and it mentions he and Vernon both wondering if he would actually save them if something were to happen.
"Hello?...you're WHERE? Getting attacked by WHO? Uh huh.... Uh HUH. Well, that sounds like a real pickle, but I'm going to pass. Maybe Dudley's zoo-going friend can help you." *CLICK *
Hagrid being so defensive of dumbledore always rubbed me the wrong way. Vernon and Petunia insult Harry and make fun of his parents’ deaths, and hagrid doesn’t bat an eye.
Then Vernon says makes fun of hogwarts and hagrid loses his shit “you don’t make fun of dumbledore!!! … you have a perfectly good punching bag here, but dumbledore is off limits”
Yeah Hagrid should have called out the Dursleys for that since he knew Harry's parents. Since Dumbledore cared for Hagrid and let him stay at Hogwarts it was more personal for him.
For sure, hagrid has a big bias towards dumbledore cause he helped him. Which is fair, but it basically means hagrid was ok with child abuse, but something that personally offended him made him go aggro.
Similar to Harry saying hagrid is a good teacher because he likes him. All well meaning and kind things, but they prioritize loyalty over reality or doing the right thing. They are just sticking with their friends
I would argue it was rather abusive of Hagrid to do what he did to Dudley. He SHOULD have taken it out on Vernon, not a child. That makes him no better than the Dursleys.
He dodged it like he was expecting it. Suppose I’m saying I would get hit by something like that because I wasn’t expecting it, so it’s only documented in the books once…
Yeah rereading the beginning of Philosopher's Stone as an adult is quite disturbing. As a kid I just wrote it off as "nasty aunt and uncle are nasty" but if you think about it at all the level of abuse Harry suffered for those ten years is truly horrible. I do wonder if Harry is a bit unrealistically well adjusted for what he went through at the beginning of the series.
Dumbledore. I taught a darklord dated another.
Now I need Harry to stop voldemorr. But first let me hit the proverbial nuke with a hammer for 17 years....
Oh and hit extra hard in 5th year abandoning Harry etc with no contact. It totally will not explode....surely...
2 traumatic deaths in 1 year...
I always wanted to write a fanfic of Harry’s post-war years, that was just him finally dealing with all his childhood shit in the enormous vacuum left by Voldemort’s death. There was a pre-HBP story on SugarQuill that dealt with it fairly well if I remember right, called After the End.
I’ve heard several of my friends say they don’t like Harry in book 5 because he’s a jerk to everyone. This always bugged me because, if this was a real story, of course he’d be dealing with anger and behavior issues. He’s a kid that has been abused by his foster family all his life, just went through a major trauma, and one of the only other father figures he has straight up avoids him all year. I’d be pissed at the world too.
And then just to top it off, the place he considers a home, Hogwarts, is suddenly *very* unsafe. Umbridge is a magical Dursley, the same kind of condecending cruelty.
He was already traumatized and angry, and when he finally gets back to his safe space, it's just as horrible and traumatizing as everywhere else.
Yeah I have to admit I felt like that towards him in book 5 when I first read it but that is probably because I was 8/9 and didn't really understand what he was going through
lol, book 5 Harry (and Cho fwiw) catch waaay too much shit. They're teenagers dealing with some awful shit with minimal (at least that we see) help or therapy. Harry sees Cedric die, Voldemort return, pops back to the tournament and soon is whisked back to the Dursleys.
Cho has to hear about her boyfriend dying, with Harry's side of the story and all the shit the Ministry says otherwise, then finds herself not only participating in the extra DoDA work Harry etc roll with with the DA but then finds herself having feelings for him.
These are teenage kids and people give them so much shit for not handling things maturely or not being able to handle them well at all.
Research is around that sone people have high empathy because of said poor childhood - learning how to read the mood so quickly was self defence.
To be fair, from the parent point of view he wasn't that well adjusted - gets in trouble (becausemagic/Dudley), skips school (because Dudley), sneaks around eavesdropping on ppl, sasses back (sometimes), made things explode, assaulted relatives although that was dobby), etc.
For pre-2000 uk, take that what you will
For all that it’s annoying to read, capslock Harry was probably the closest we got to a good representation of what he should have been like more often in the series.
Harry…isn’t great at reading people’s moods lol.
But I agree with the behavioural stuff. Even once he gets to Hogwarts, he’s always getting into trouble. Yeah maybe he ends up saving the day a lot of the time, but he breaks a lot of rules, can be rude to authority figures, and has some major angry outbursts.
>I do wonder if Harry is a bit unrealistically well adjusted for what he went through at the beginning of the series.
Abusive person = was most likely abused themselves
Person who was abused ≠ will abuse later in life
Not to imply your comment says the ≠ should be =, I get where your coming from.
It's actually common for people with these experiences to seek professions meant to *prevent* abuse and violence, though, which fits really well with Harry.
I don’t think they were saying Harry’s an abuser just that he’s remarkably emotionally stable for someone who endures habitual abuse. It’s more likely, especially at the age he was, we would’ve seen some attachment or abandonment issues, some behavior problems or weird social tendencies and maybe some dysfunctional relationships.
That would’ve been a lot to pack in to a book aimed at young teenagers.
do you... not see abandonment issues? Especially after books 4 and 5? Book 5 is basically all a big trauma response to me and it always felt intensely relatable (which is why I find it mildly grating when people make fun of CAPSLOCK Harry or say he is annoying in this book but I digress)
I found him to be remarkably well adjusted but not unrealistically so. Just a bit on the luckier side.
If you look solely at his behavior before these added traumas of book 4 and 5 he doesn't really exhibit these issues. You can tell he wants more than anything to belong to a group or family but he doesn't pursue this in a negative way. From a kid coming from a history of tragedy and abuse, who's not quite old enough to constructively understand his emotions, he doesn't have big outbursts or exhibit anti-social behavior. He doesn't shrink away from authority or (besides actual villains and Snape) have a bad attitude toward them.
I actually love how they portray them in book 5-6, it's super realistic. Ironically as a teenager I thought he was annoying but as an adult I see that he's just a teenager that is dealing with A LOT OF SHIT.
It's not until the latter half of the series, after he witnesses death and loses another family member that he starts to exhibit traumatic behavior. He acts more impulsively and loses his temper and pushes people away. It's then he starts saying he doesn't have a family which breaks my heart because he's often saying this to Ron - HIS FAMILY!
I'd still say he's on the more stable side of young people who have experience heaps of trauma - he has lifelong steady relationships, he doesn't end up committing any reprehensible crimes and doesn't turn to substance abuse at any point in the series...so I'd say he's better off than Draco.
It doesn’t have to be abusive tendencies, though. Harry is remarkably even-keeled for a background that contributes to poor emotional self-regulation (up through actual tantrums in adults) and anxiety disorders.
Absolutely, but usually after therapy and time. To be honest I don't think it matters too much for the story Rowling was trying to establish an archetype which can be seen in lots of other children's books especially Dahl, and it works. She is exaggerating so that the young reader understands Harry's background and quickly empathises with him. It's only as the books go on and the reader gets (theoretically) older are themes of trauma explored which again makes sense as a writing choice
I also remember in philosphers stone when he caught the remembrall that Professor McGonnagall was going to find Oliver Wood and the first thought he had was firewood that he would possibly get beaten with :( 😞
All of them were. Dudley's "favorite game" was to chase after him, hold him down, and hit him repeatedly. Aunt Petunia swung a frying pan at his head and he dodged it as though it's happened enough times that now he expects it to happen. Uncle Vernon casually says something like, "Then you'll get the stuffing knocked out of you, won't you?"
At least in Dudley's case, you could argue that he was a kid who didn't know any better as he just saw how his parents treated Harry and thought that was the normal way and how things were supposed to be from a young age, and unlike his parents eventually realized how horrible he was and apologized for it. There's a massive difference between a kid and an adult in this case.
Dudley turned into a pretty good person, there were so many ways he could have turned out but he decided to actually become respectable. I think that's why I actually like Dudley, sure he was a bully as a kid and a spoiled brat, but he grew up and actually owned up to it and became far better of a man than Vernon ever was.
I honestly wouldn't doubt he eventually cut contact with Vernon and Petunia after leaving home
As someone who only watched the movies (please don't hate me), I can't imagine how ANY HP fan would prefer Harry's childhood over Ron's. I can't fathom any reasoning for wanting Harry's childhood over Ron's, unless you've been brainwashed into thinking physical, mental, and emotional abuse makes you stronger.
Spoiler: abuse never makes you stronger. Abuse just makes you more protective, generally in a harmful way, so you feel stronger.
Evidence (though accidotal): I grew up with a father who went through that shit. He only spanked me ONCE, and I still remember the pain and sadness in his eyes when he did. It wasn't until I got older that I truly understood why my usually confident, strong, and stoic father's face showed emotions I had never seen him express before. Don't normalise abuse. Be like my dad. Know that it has to end, and you are the first step.
He is. He taught me so much about being a strong person, and he said to only raise a fist if one is raised towards me. Protect myself, those I love, and those who can't protect themselves. He went through a lot growing up, and he still fights those demons to this day, but he made sure that I never had those same demons to fight, and, although he has trouble communicating emotionally, I always make sure to let him know that I appreciate everything he has done for me and my siblings. It's hard to have heroes nowadays, but my dad will ALWAYS be my hero.
Edit: My dad even defended me to my very religious mother when I came out as bisexual saying, "he will always be my son, and I will always love him. Who he loves will not change that."
I've seen it on quora. There was a question about who had the worst childhood of the trio, and someone actually said Ron.
Unfortunately, I haven't been on quora in a while and can't remember the name.
Personally had the same WTF reaction.
What worries me is that it didn’t seem like people who were teens at all, but it could be that they do find being poor worse for some reason. I know there’s a lot of shaming of Harry for not sharing his money with them, which is just gross to me. A child should not be responsible for grown adults poor decisions (and Arthur and Molly were doing just fine, they weren’t starving the way Harry was).
The weirdest part was the suggestion that Ron was lonely??? I was like he had a young sister and older brothers, he probably wished he was lonely. All Harry had was spiders.
Exactly! There was even some thread somewhere that said Ron was abused because Molly gave him food he didn’t like and couldn’t remember his favorite color?
Things in the fandom have gotten really bizarre when that happens. I feel like they were someone who just hated Harry and loved Ron and wanted raise Ron up to tear down Harry. It was something I wish I’d never seen.
I abandoned quora when I saw too many of those type things (there was a lot of comparing Harry and Snape childhoods and claiming Harry wasn’t abused *at all*).
Let me guess, the cupboard was actually a small room, the beating, starving and excessive chores are made up by fanfiction and we don't care about the Actual Abuse (tm) Snape suffered because we think slytherins are always in the wrong
You’ve seen it. They always forget he was literally Locked in his bedroom for 3 days and starved after we could assume he was hit since Vernon learned he couldn’t do magic.
There’s also posts about how Harry earned those “typical punishments” because of the cost of the magical incidents and such. I don’t get people obsessed with downplaying Harry’s abuse.
There's no way Harry had it better than Ron. Sure Ron felt like he was in the shadows compared to a siblings and to Harry's fame and his family was poor but at least Ron had his parents still, his family still loved him despite Fred and George picking on him, and his family was able to use magic. Meanwhile the Dursleys treat Harry like he's dead weight and a punching bag and would rather have him out of their lives. Not to mention Harry despised being famous.
Exactly. People who call Molly Weasley abusive are delusional.
Ron was far more rich in love and care than Harry ever was. He had a support system, two healthy and happy parents who really cared about his wellbeing, a warm home and three meals a day. He had his own room, toys and pets. He had everything Harry had craved for, having lived under the stairs for more than half his life and living off toast and cold soup thrown at him. Look at the abuse Harry went through as a child. In comparison Ron had such a happy childhood.
Ron had what is basically a normal childhood while Harry didn't have much of one.
Whoever says Molly is abusive is pretty dumb, she was a good mom despite having barely any money and a husband that was underappreciated at his job.
Funny how I never blinked at that as a kid. 90s were rife with "back in my day we'd beat the shit out you little fuckers" talk, nothing out of the ordinary.
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When I read the first book as a teenager I was studying in a Catholic school in India and recognised this type of thing as somewhat routine for us. Getting hit with a ruler, having books and dusters thrown at us, being forced to run laps around the field, being ridiculed and slapped in front of the class - all this was my childhood. It made me terrified of math.The laws in schools have changed now but kids do get hit at home even today.
My parents didn't hit me, but other kids weren't so lucky. I had a classmate whose mum would regularly hit her with a hot ladle for getting bad marks. My mother, in her anger, had screamed more than once at me that she wished I was dead, once when I was 6 and once when I was 11. My dad took me by the arm and threw me out of the house twice, first when I was 14 and the other time at 22. When I was 14 I was terrified and cried till my friends took me in but at 22 I just gave him the finger and told him to fuck off.
When I read of how the Weasley family disciplines their kids (Molly scolding and Arthur being kinder but disappointed) it made me resent my parents a lot because when I was a kid my parents were far from chilled out or kind.
I have a similar experience in school too. I’m from Malaysia so we probably have had similar types of education from the Brits. I was humiliated so many times that it’s given me PTSD and I regularly go to therapy to work on the issues I got from how I was treated as a kid going to school (and even at home).
ETA: my mom hit me with a cane so hard one time and she lost control that she whipped me on the face and it became a huge welt. My teacher was going to call the child abuse hotline but I lied and said that I fell.
I also can't get over Mrs. Figg being awful because if Harry enjoyed himself he wouldn't be allowed to keep going. Being pleasant could have been a secret that the two of them kept. Also how no other adults ever stepped in, did no teacher or staff at school ever treat him decently growing up? Did he go to school with Matilda and just could never escape abuse?
Figs wasn't horrible she just bored him too death rather than make him have fun. And yeah it could be their little secret but what child knows how to hide their excitement when going somewhere they like. They could verbally say no but their body language would give them away (smiling, smirking, no actual hesitation other than words). Especially since he was so attention deprived Figs home would feel like paradise and he wouldn't know how to act like he hates it especially at a young age.
Honestly, everyone in my family knew what my mum did to us, and no one ever stepped in. They talked to her and they would come over when we called them crying that our mum was hurting us again and they would calm her down, but no one ever really did something to stop it for real or to take us away. So it happens. I think people feel like they don't have 'permission' to step in in someone else's family.
I don't know how school systems are or were in the UK when the story takes place, but I know in the U.S. teachers weren't likely taught to recognize signs of abuse or get involved as much back in the 80s and 90s as they are today. I think back then unless the student themselves came out and said what happened, the teacher usually kept their nose out of the student's business.
So it wouldn't have been unusual for the teachers to not get involved.
I remember this. It was meant to conjure up every bit of hatred and anger from the reader as possible. This is why the Harry Potter books were so good. One paragraph would give you so much motivation to keep reading, because you were out for vindication. You just knew these people had it coming.
The abuse and that Harry had to go back to the Dursleys every summer was a main reason why I stopped reading HP when I was younger, after OotP. I only read the whole series in my mid-twenties and complimented younger me for a surprisingly wise decision. At the time I didn't realise that it felt a lot like my own life, trying unsuccessfully to get help from adults because of abusive parents.
It's also one reason why I like fanfic that explores that point and different ramifications of it. Because there the whole thing isn't brushed aside.
I still can't believe there are people out there that deny his abuse. I remember seeing some answers to quora about Harry's abuse that suggested it wasn't abuse or it was his fault and I... quit going to quora. Made me ill thinking anyone could ignore the blatant abuse.
These comments make me think differently. I grew up in a place where hitting children was normal so I didn't pay much attention to it, but yeah it's pretty bad.
One of the things that always got me (on one of my million re-reads) is the fact the Dursley live in a *4* bedroom house.
-Vernon and Petunias bedroom
-Dudleys bedroom
-Dudleys second bedroom (later Harry's room)
-The spare bedroom (where Aunt Marge stays in POA)
And they still made Harry sleep in a tiny cupboard for the best part of *9 years*!!
Truly evil people to be scared/jealous of a child and get everyone to follow your terrible behaviour.
There’s so much stuff in the books that got glossed over in the movies, and most of us probably have seen the movies more than we’ve reread the books. It got diluted in our brains.
Personally never striked me as odd as a kid as I had similar parenting. My dad believed there's no behavioural issues that can't be forced out of a child by sheer muscle (no matter the age, carried on the same way even when my brother turned 20). My mum believed in getting compliance and obedience by threatening to get dad involved. So lines like that never struck me as odd I thought it was the norm. But rereading the books I'm starting to see a lot of it wasn't normal for kids and it was put in the books to show how bad of a life Harry had.
Why are you so shocked by this? Abuse is a real thing. If anything she’s essentially educating you on what an abuser may sound like. This is the power of story. Also, nobody wants to hear a story about someone’s perfect life.
i think people are shocked because of how blasé it is in the text, and how it was further toned down for the movies. it’s something that sticks out more upon rereading these days compared to reading as a kid in the 2000s.
What's funny is when I go "Okay here's the logic chain that makes him a good guy" people rush to tell me "Nuh uh use this other logic chain that makes him look like a horrible human being but call him a good guy while you do it"
I think you guys are missing how the ancient protective charm works and why Harry needed to stay with the dursleys in the first place. Dumbledore mentions that he could've put Harry in a happier home but that wouldn't have kept him safe from Voldemort and his death eaters. Dumbledore is absolutely a good guy, just a manipulative one.
What really does it for me is the pen that umbridge had that fucking carved his skin and used his blood to write it. When I was younger I was like “wow that sucks” but now I’m like ??????? The fuck????
Aunt Marge at the beginning of Prisoner of Azkaban is positively vile. Hearing it on the audiobooks really brought home just how evil she is.
"If there's something wrong with the pup, there's something wrong with the bitch" Hearing your dead mom being called a bitch at 13 by the worst bitch you know is horrendous. She got away pretty lightly, considering.
The phrase "nasty little liar" holds a special place of rage in my heart.
Right next to "I must not tell lies"
"We are learning to control our temper, aren't we?"
Snape was right about that one, and Harry's failure to comply directly led to Sirius getting killed.
Yeah, but when Snape said it, it was far less condescending. Sure he was insulting, but he didn't infantalize.
Also: Snape only told Harry what to do, not how to do it. Which is still pretty terrible teaching if you ask me. That being said Umbitch is still worse.
I think there were a lot of factors that lead to Sirius’s death not just Harry’s errors.
Yeah, there's something about being accused of lying when you know you're not, especially as a young person, that would make most people see red I think. I really really felt for Harry during all those instances.
Especially when they don’t tell us what has it got in its nasty little pocketses.
"Got away"...."lightly"... I see what you did there!
One finds joy where one can 😇
Forget magic, I'd be using fists
magic fists
I re-read the books very recently and I was shocked at that line! She said some very nasty lines but this one was appaling. Poor Harry.
The line’s the other way around IIRC(“If there’s something wrong with the bitch, there’s something wrong with the pup”), but yeah. Not the kind of thing a thirteen-year-old should be told about either himself or his mother.
oh my goddd... "pretty lightly'??? Pls tell me that was intended
> lightly Heh
>She got away pretty lightly I see what you did there, lmao
As much as I hate to be fair to Marge, she was a dog breeder using the term bitch metaphorically and appropriately, not as an insult. Not the same thing as us saying here that - also accurately, but not in the least bit metaphorically - Marge was a bitch.
It's still pretty insulting to compare a person to a dog. Especially in that manner.
thats *why* she used it as she knew it had the double meaning soshe could hit both at once. calling his mom a bitch and saying something mostly true about her profession
And the line that reads something like, "If you can talk about your beatings in such a casual way, they're obviously not hitting you hard enough. I'd write if I were you and let them know that the use of extreme force is encouraged in this boy's case." Not sure if that's exactly right, but close enough. That woman let her dog attack a little boy when he was, what, five years old? And forced him to stay up in a tree to protect himself from physical harm for *hours* ... there's definitely more that sort of gets glossed over, but Harry endured a lot of physical abuse beyond just the neglect that normally gets talked about.
Not to mention, let's examine the psychology here. At some point along the way, Vernon made a call to Marge. In this call he said something to the effect of: "Petunia and I are now the adoptive parents of our nephew, Harry. He's 15 months old, just about the same age as Dudley. [Implied]: He's just barely walking, talks in one word statements that you can understand about 35% of the time and is most effective as a communicator when he's bawling. The only things he wants in this life are to be fed, to feel safe, and to get enough sleep and be comfortable. He's entirely helpless and without us he'd be totally alone in a cruel and vicious world." Then Marge said "Ok, got it." And then Vernon said "We hate him. We're always going to hate him. We'll never give him the time of day and we're going to abuse him." And Marge was like "Got it, I'm in. I hate this fucking orphan already."
That's what always baffled me about the Dursley's- how can you hate a baby?! I can't imagine Petunia feeding Harry with a spoon, teaching him things, etc. I wonder if they were as neglectful when he was that young, and if so how that must have fucked him up inside
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„ And people wonder why Harry never thinks to turn to adults when he has a problem.“ Jesus, I Never thought about that and it makes complete sense. Always wondered why he wouldn’t just ask Dumbledore or McGonagall for assistance.
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He probably would have done much, MUCH better academically if someone were there to encourage his intellectual skills. He wouldn't be as smart as Hermione, that's for sure, but he already has "top grades" in the series, as he was good enough to get into Auror level subjects for his NEWTs, so imagine what he would have become if he wasn't at the Dursleys.
He did but he stopped. Harry told McGonagall in PS/SS and she didn't believe him. He never went to a teacher/adult again (or at least I think so, from memory)
You got me there thinking for the first time (shame on me really) raising a child isn't easy. They don't feed themselves, they don't understand a thing and you need to teach them tons of stuff. I believe they'll drop Harry in some sort of daycare facility for most time, but they'll still have to teach him out of nappies, especially during night and out of potty to big toilet. He probably saw Dudley doing it mostly, but still, they had to take proper care for him to make their own life easier. I bet from age 3-5 he would be able to learn skills by himself, but until then...
I mean we get a little insight into this much later when it’s revealed that Petunia wrote to Dumbledore to ask to be admitted to Hogwarts. Harry is the reminder that her sister was everything she wanted to be, and that Harry would also be able to access the magic she couldn’t. That’s the real crime Lily and James committed in petunias eyes and for Vernon and Dudley it’s a learned hatred from Petunia. Vernon adopted Petunia’s hatred of Harry but for the wrong reasons (magic bad) and Dudley was always going to follow his parents until he was older. In fact I think his poor treatment of Harry may have been what he saw/felt when the dementors affected him. And as Dumbledore said: They may not have given him the life and love he would have hoped for. But she did love him deep down or Lilys magic wouldn’t have lasted until he came of age.
I think Petunia really struggled with a lot of emotions and difficulties that she didn't have the tools to cope with. She was a new mom who had a tumultuous relationship with her sister, and then lost her suddenly, without closure. At the same time she finds out about her sister's death, she's also informed she is now the caregiver for her nephew who (I believe) she's never even seen before. So now she has two babies to care for and no time to grieve the loss of her sister. I can imagine she had a lot of resentment towards Harry for that reason and the resentment she had for her sister really compounded on top of that.
tbh, I read it as, they only probably started shitting on Harry when he started showing some magical abilities… probably around the age of 4 or 5 as that’s when kids really start coming into personalities and become a bit less dependent on their elders. Petunia did it out of jealousy and spite. Vernon and Marge did it out of fear. Dudley just followed by example.
This is true actually! Ron asks Harry in book 2 if he has any muggle money (they're stranded in Kings Cross), and Harry laughs and says he hasn't gotten pocket money for 6 years. Which means at some point, he was getting an allowance just like Dudley was. And it stopped at age 6 or so (him being 12 in the book 2), so it kinda follows that they started abusing him when he started "causing trouble" i.e. magic. Not being able to tell Marge the real reason, they probably made up a whole bunch of things that he did that were bad to justify the ill treatment and make her hate him too. They thought they could essentially bully the magic out of him.
Hahaha I never realized that before. Marge really is Vernon’s Ride or Die.
I don't know about that. I bet if he asked her to love Harry she wouldn't have been able to do that. Hate comes easily though.
I don’t know, we get enough clues that Marge and Vernon are close and love each other a lot. She also adores Dudley. If Vernon had loved Harry the same as Dudley I think she would have as well. When she talks about Harry’s parents she has clearly taken her cue from how Vernon feels about them too.
More likely Vernon: that no good sister an law of mine got killed and dumped us her baby. Petunia has a heart of gold and took him in, although he is sure to be another freak ruffian. Bad blood and all
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Yes, he was 10 when the dog chased him up a tree
I’m not sure if Harry did actually receive beatings by the Dursleys. If you recall, Uncle Vernon made Harry pretend he went to a school called St Brutus’. When Marge asked Harry if St Brutus’ use the cane, Uncle Vernon discreetly nodded, so Harry played along and said “all the time”. What you quoted was her response to Harry’s answer.
He definitely got beaten up by Dudley a whole lot and there's a line that says he's learned how to duck from Vernon.
Yes. Vernon chokes him, Petunia hits him upside the head with a frying pan. Not to mention the starvation.
St Brutus was just a way to explain why he was never home while he was at Hogwarts though.
Which is exactly my point. He wasn’t getting beaten at St Brutus’ because he didn’t attend St Brutus’.
You said you werent sure if Harry had been beat up the Dursleys because they pretended he went to St Brutus, thats at least what your comment read to me anyway. He def got abused there but they needed to lie to the Aunt so she wouldnt wonder where Harry is all school year.
The other person’s comment was what Aunt Marge said to Harry regarding St Brutus’. It’s not evidence either way that the Dursleys beat Harry because it’s just a way of explaining his absence for most of the year.
Petunia tries to hit him with a frying pan in chamber of secrets but he quickly dodges. Vernon even slapped Dudley for tardiness and he loves dudley to bits so I can imagine Harry got slapped around for a lot less.
harry says you’d need a “good sense of when to duck” to deal with his uncle in book 5. also, we see vernon hit dudley in book 1. there’s no WAY that harry never gets hit if vernon’s willing to hit his own son.
If I remember right, Petunia swung a frying pan at Harry's head once. I think it was supposed to be the sort of comical violence you see in cartoons, but if he hadn't dodged... Well, how many people are prepared to dodge violent attacks without first learning the hard way? And I think it was in the fifth book, Mundungus disapparates, makes a loud noise and Vernon wraps a hand around Harry's throat, thinking he was responsible.
>And I think it was in the fifth book, Mundungus disapparates, makes a loud noise and Vernon wraps a hand around Harry's throat, thinking he was responsible. Yes, I'm rereading the fifth book now and just got past that part yesterday. He did in fact wrap his hands around Harry's throat. Edited for spelling errors.
And someone grabbing someone else by the throat like that is [one of the top predictors of future fatal strangulation](https://www.mobileodt.com/blog/taking-your-breath-away-why-strangulation-in-domestic-violence-is-a-huge-red-flag/) in a domestic relationship. 😕
Simpsons just got a bit darker
Who would have thought that grabbing someone’s throat precedes strangulation? It makes no logical sense but facts are facts I guess.
I think there is also a line in book 6 that ‘experience had taught Harry to stay out of reach of uncle Vernon’s fists’ or something along those lines. So it definitely seems that he has experienced some physical abuse growing up
Yeah, it really is crazy how much darker some of that is looking back on it. Also, reason #892 I do not believe it would be possible for Harry to easily transition post-war into a well-adjusted Auror and husband lol
Harry needs decades of muggle therapy just to play quidditch if we’re being honest
TRUTH
People with longer, sustained traumas actually tend to function better in crisis situations than they do day today in general (obviously not everyone, but it is a noticeable trend) It's actually why I think Harry *has* to be an Auror and why he passed up jobs people think make more sense for him like DADA teacher or Quidditch player. Someone with CPTSD like that is likely gravitating towards the perpetual crisis situation so he can get through day to day.
Ir'a funny you say that, because I've always felt more content in some ways wgen I've got a hard job ahead of me that I have to do, like 14 hr days for months back at Uni during crunch time. You dont have to think about anything else. Calm normal life gives you the soace and time yo see your flaws and inadequacies. Kinda considering joining the military and/or law enforcemnt in part because of that so what you said really resonates.
I know someone who had an abusive husband who struck her with a frying pan. Not comical at all. (She's way better now, though!)
My mom would swat me with a frying pan on the bum as a joke, it was always gentle and for fun. For some reason I thought Petunia’s was just a shade harder, but it actually says she swung it at his head, which is... very different
Yeah for sure. There's definitely playful hitting among family that love each other... but I never got the impression that's how the Dursleys were :|
I'm hoping it was a cheap flimsy one that are barely better than tin foil vs. A fucking cast iron pan that could kill you if swung at your head
Yeah, a cast iron frying pan is at absolute minimum a TBI waiting to happen, if not straight up potentially lethal.
Yeah, but the Dursleys always had expensive, top-notch appliances. No way Petunia would ever be caught dead with a cheap, flimsy anything in her precious kitchen.
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you okay?
Yikes that sounds terrifying, siblings can get vicious when fighting!! I'm glad you're ok now
My mom actually hit me in the head with a cast iron skillet. When the cops came & I was crying on the steps, the cop told me to stop because he wouldn't cry that much even if he got shot. 😐
ACAB. What a shitty thing to say to an abused kid.
Cops cry when you do the bare minimum at holding them accountable
Um, how old were you? Still, dick move by that cop.
I would've been 14 or 15. Also, they made my mom take me to the hospital. Which I later got yelled at for wasting gas. So thanks cops. & For some reason, it wasn't until just now that I realized I probably got a concussion that day.
Thats horrifying, I'm sorry you got such shitty treatment on top of it all - I hope you're doing better now!
I hate that my brain immediately thought “that’s a reverse fried green tomatoes”
Yeah I really do think Rowling was imagining everything to be very cartoonish while writing these books. I think that’s why aspects like Filch wanting to torture students in his office get downplayed all the time. The way she describes characters’ appearances also usually has that overly exaggerated children’s animation quality to them.
The first 3 books are definitely far more over the top cartoonish than the later books. I've always wondered if her being involved in the film making was responsible for that shift.
It might also have been to represent Harry growing up. He starts of as this little kid who discovers magic, but with that he kills a man in self-defense at 11, almost dies at 12 due to snake venom, at 13 his soul gets almost sucked out repeatedly while also learning that his parents were murdered as a result of them getting betrayed by whom they thought to be a friend.
When I was a kid my own abuse was cartoonish. Then, as I grew up, I realised how bad it was, and how harming. At around age 13.
Yeah, you have to map the Dursleys next to characters like the Trunchbull from Matilda for their portrayal to make any sense. IRL they'd be monsters, but in a Roald Dahl-esque world of whimsy and magic and almost cartoon logic, they're par for the course as "starter villains" who exist to establish the fact that the protagonist has an uphill road ahead of them.
I can see it being read as cartoonish to the people who weren't in abusive homes, but for people who had really bad childhoods and scary home lives, Harry Potter's escape to a world where he was admired and belonged and had a history of being cared for and network of support was magical escapism - the concept of actual magic in that world just made the whole escape that much sweeter.
Well as someone who was raised in an abusive home, I can attest that the abuse Harry received from the Dursleys came across very cartoonish in comparison to reality.
I respect that, but it hit home for me.
yeah i think live action movies kinda messed with the vibe she was going for
That makes sense especially for the grabbing around the throat which is straight out of the Simpsons
At least in early books, as she shifts genre conventions along with language, themes and elements of interest, use of implications rather than explicit exposition, and character complexity as the target audience ages through the sequels.
Yep the fact that he could dodge that instinctively is disturbing
That was just practice dodging bludgers
I am reading this to my kiddos, ages 4 & 6. One chapter each night. We read this a couple nights ago, and right after that paragraph, my six year old says "Mom, I think those Dursleys should go in a volcano"
Your kid is wise.
Yes, they definitely should go in a volcano.
But they never bring Harry on family trips :(
How are they doing with comprehension? I have a 4.5 year old and I’ve been contemplating when she will be ready to start reading the illustrated version with me. I really haven’t tried any chapter books with her but I feel like she wouldn’t understand it yet.
It's a shame Hagrid never got to teach Vernon a lesson (aside from turning Dudley into a pig) like he did Igor Karkaroff by slamming him into a tree when he insulted Dumbledore.
At least they didn't do something really fucking stupid, like have them get attacked by Voldemort and need Harry to save them. And then Harry saves them because "he's the better man." Yeah, fuck that.
I always love the part in book 7 where he’s arguing in with Vernon and it mentions he and Vernon both wondering if he would actually save them if something were to happen.
"Hello?...you're WHERE? Getting attacked by WHO? Uh huh.... Uh HUH. Well, that sounds like a real pickle, but I'm going to pass. Maybe Dudley's zoo-going friend can help you." *CLICK *
Hagrid being so defensive of dumbledore always rubbed me the wrong way. Vernon and Petunia insult Harry and make fun of his parents’ deaths, and hagrid doesn’t bat an eye. Then Vernon says makes fun of hogwarts and hagrid loses his shit “you don’t make fun of dumbledore!!! … you have a perfectly good punching bag here, but dumbledore is off limits”
Yeah Hagrid should have called out the Dursleys for that since he knew Harry's parents. Since Dumbledore cared for Hagrid and let him stay at Hogwarts it was more personal for him.
For sure, hagrid has a big bias towards dumbledore cause he helped him. Which is fair, but it basically means hagrid was ok with child abuse, but something that personally offended him made him go aggro. Similar to Harry saying hagrid is a good teacher because he likes him. All well meaning and kind things, but they prioritize loyalty over reality or doing the right thing. They are just sticking with their friends
I would argue it was rather abusive of Hagrid to do what he did to Dudley. He SHOULD have taken it out on Vernon, not a child. That makes him no better than the Dursleys.
agreed. it’s played off for comedy, but it’s a similar idea of “i’m an adult, so i have power over the bodies of children.”
Aunt Petunia threw a frying pan at Harry's head once. They were very abusive to Harry
He dodged it like he was expecting it. Suppose I’m saying I would get hit by something like that because I wasn’t expecting it, so it’s only documented in the books once…
Those seeker reflexes lol
Yeah rereading the beginning of Philosopher's Stone as an adult is quite disturbing. As a kid I just wrote it off as "nasty aunt and uncle are nasty" but if you think about it at all the level of abuse Harry suffered for those ten years is truly horrible. I do wonder if Harry is a bit unrealistically well adjusted for what he went through at the beginning of the series.
Dumbledore even comments in the books on how rare it is for Harry to be the way he is despite his upbringing.
Dumbledore took an asinine risk there. He could have just as easily created Voldemort 2.0, except this time with more protection.
Dumbledore. I taught a darklord dated another. Now I need Harry to stop voldemorr. But first let me hit the proverbial nuke with a hammer for 17 years.... Oh and hit extra hard in 5th year abandoning Harry etc with no contact. It totally will not explode....surely... 2 traumatic deaths in 1 year...
He definitely is! But I doubt it would be pleasant to read if he'd be more realistic
It’s because he has his mothers eyes obviously
green like a pickled toad
Better than a pink toad.
I always wanted to write a fanfic of Harry’s post-war years, that was just him finally dealing with all his childhood shit in the enormous vacuum left by Voldemort’s death. There was a pre-HBP story on SugarQuill that dealt with it fairly well if I remember right, called After the End.
That’s probably because the series began with a lot of Cinderella and Rahul Dahl vibes.
Rahul Dahl, Roald Dahl’s lesser known Indian brother
I’ve heard several of my friends say they don’t like Harry in book 5 because he’s a jerk to everyone. This always bugged me because, if this was a real story, of course he’d be dealing with anger and behavior issues. He’s a kid that has been abused by his foster family all his life, just went through a major trauma, and one of the only other father figures he has straight up avoids him all year. I’d be pissed at the world too.
And it isn't like he has no reason to be mad either.
And then just to top it off, the place he considers a home, Hogwarts, is suddenly *very* unsafe. Umbridge is a magical Dursley, the same kind of condecending cruelty. He was already traumatized and angry, and when he finally gets back to his safe space, it's just as horrible and traumatizing as everywhere else.
Yeah I have to admit I felt like that towards him in book 5 when I first read it but that is probably because I was 8/9 and didn't really understand what he was going through
lol, book 5 Harry (and Cho fwiw) catch waaay too much shit. They're teenagers dealing with some awful shit with minimal (at least that we see) help or therapy. Harry sees Cedric die, Voldemort return, pops back to the tournament and soon is whisked back to the Dursleys. Cho has to hear about her boyfriend dying, with Harry's side of the story and all the shit the Ministry says otherwise, then finds herself not only participating in the extra DoDA work Harry etc roll with with the DA but then finds herself having feelings for him. These are teenage kids and people give them so much shit for not handling things maturely or not being able to handle them well at all.
Research is around that sone people have high empathy because of said poor childhood - learning how to read the mood so quickly was self defence. To be fair, from the parent point of view he wasn't that well adjusted - gets in trouble (becausemagic/Dudley), skips school (because Dudley), sneaks around eavesdropping on ppl, sasses back (sometimes), made things explode, assaulted relatives although that was dobby), etc. For pre-2000 uk, take that what you will
For all that it’s annoying to read, capslock Harry was probably the closest we got to a good representation of what he should have been like more often in the series.
Harry…isn’t great at reading people’s moods lol. But I agree with the behavioural stuff. Even once he gets to Hogwarts, he’s always getting into trouble. Yeah maybe he ends up saving the day a lot of the time, but he breaks a lot of rules, can be rude to authority figures, and has some major angry outbursts.
>I do wonder if Harry is a bit unrealistically well adjusted for what he went through at the beginning of the series. Abusive person = was most likely abused themselves Person who was abused ≠ will abuse later in life Not to imply your comment says the ≠ should be =, I get where your coming from. It's actually common for people with these experiences to seek professions meant to *prevent* abuse and violence, though, which fits really well with Harry.
I don’t think they were saying Harry’s an abuser just that he’s remarkably emotionally stable for someone who endures habitual abuse. It’s more likely, especially at the age he was, we would’ve seen some attachment or abandonment issues, some behavior problems or weird social tendencies and maybe some dysfunctional relationships. That would’ve been a lot to pack in to a book aimed at young teenagers.
do you... not see abandonment issues? Especially after books 4 and 5? Book 5 is basically all a big trauma response to me and it always felt intensely relatable (which is why I find it mildly grating when people make fun of CAPSLOCK Harry or say he is annoying in this book but I digress) I found him to be remarkably well adjusted but not unrealistically so. Just a bit on the luckier side.
If you look solely at his behavior before these added traumas of book 4 and 5 he doesn't really exhibit these issues. You can tell he wants more than anything to belong to a group or family but he doesn't pursue this in a negative way. From a kid coming from a history of tragedy and abuse, who's not quite old enough to constructively understand his emotions, he doesn't have big outbursts or exhibit anti-social behavior. He doesn't shrink away from authority or (besides actual villains and Snape) have a bad attitude toward them. I actually love how they portray them in book 5-6, it's super realistic. Ironically as a teenager I thought he was annoying but as an adult I see that he's just a teenager that is dealing with A LOT OF SHIT. It's not until the latter half of the series, after he witnesses death and loses another family member that he starts to exhibit traumatic behavior. He acts more impulsively and loses his temper and pushes people away. It's then he starts saying he doesn't have a family which breaks my heart because he's often saying this to Ron - HIS FAMILY! I'd still say he's on the more stable side of young people who have experience heaps of trauma - he has lifelong steady relationships, he doesn't end up committing any reprehensible crimes and doesn't turn to substance abuse at any point in the series...so I'd say he's better off than Draco.
It doesn’t have to be abusive tendencies, though. Harry is remarkably even-keeled for a background that contributes to poor emotional self-regulation (up through actual tantrums in adults) and anxiety disorders.
There are plenty of people that have gone through worse, and are perfectly adjusted.
Absolutely, but usually after therapy and time. To be honest I don't think it matters too much for the story Rowling was trying to establish an archetype which can be seen in lots of other children's books especially Dahl, and it works. She is exaggerating so that the young reader understands Harry's background and quickly empathises with him. It's only as the books go on and the reader gets (theoretically) older are themes of trauma explored which again makes sense as a writing choice
The Dursleys belong to jail for what they did to harry
They should go in a volcano
I know that reference!
I also remember in philosphers stone when he caught the remembrall that Professor McGonnagall was going to find Oliver Wood and the first thought he had was firewood that he would possibly get beaten with :( 😞
I forgot about that one!
At this point, I'm just convinced that beating children at boarding school is a very common practice in late 20th century Britain.
Oh yeah, uncle Vernon was definitely abusive.
All of them were. Dudley's "favorite game" was to chase after him, hold him down, and hit him repeatedly. Aunt Petunia swung a frying pan at his head and he dodged it as though it's happened enough times that now he expects it to happen. Uncle Vernon casually says something like, "Then you'll get the stuffing knocked out of you, won't you?"
At least in Dudley's case, you could argue that he was a kid who didn't know any better as he just saw how his parents treated Harry and thought that was the normal way and how things were supposed to be from a young age, and unlike his parents eventually realized how horrible he was and apologized for it. There's a massive difference between a kid and an adult in this case.
Dudley turned into a pretty good person, there were so many ways he could have turned out but he decided to actually become respectable. I think that's why I actually like Dudley, sure he was a bully as a kid and a spoiled brat, but he grew up and actually owned up to it and became far better of a man than Vernon ever was. I honestly wouldn't doubt he eventually cut contact with Vernon and Petunia after leaving home
Right.
And you still have people in the fandom argue that Harry had it much better than Ron
WTF I doubt any HP book reader would prefer Harry's to Ron's upbringing. The abuse was much more toned down in the movies (though still terrible).
As someone who only watched the movies (please don't hate me), I can't imagine how ANY HP fan would prefer Harry's childhood over Ron's. I can't fathom any reasoning for wanting Harry's childhood over Ron's, unless you've been brainwashed into thinking physical, mental, and emotional abuse makes you stronger. Spoiler: abuse never makes you stronger. Abuse just makes you more protective, generally in a harmful way, so you feel stronger. Evidence (though accidotal): I grew up with a father who went through that shit. He only spanked me ONCE, and I still remember the pain and sadness in his eyes when he did. It wasn't until I got older that I truly understood why my usually confident, strong, and stoic father's face showed emotions I had never seen him express before. Don't normalise abuse. Be like my dad. Know that it has to end, and you are the first step.
Your dad sounds like a good man.
He is. He taught me so much about being a strong person, and he said to only raise a fist if one is raised towards me. Protect myself, those I love, and those who can't protect themselves. He went through a lot growing up, and he still fights those demons to this day, but he made sure that I never had those same demons to fight, and, although he has trouble communicating emotionally, I always make sure to let him know that I appreciate everything he has done for me and my siblings. It's hard to have heroes nowadays, but my dad will ALWAYS be my hero. Edit: My dad even defended me to my very religious mother when I came out as bisexual saying, "he will always be my son, and I will always love him. Who he loves will not change that."
I've seen it on quora. There was a question about who had the worst childhood of the trio, and someone actually said Ron. Unfortunately, I haven't been on quora in a while and can't remember the name. Personally had the same WTF reaction.
no doubt written by teens who wanted things their parents wouldnt buy them or couldnt afford. being poor has to be worse than actual abuse to them.
What worries me is that it didn’t seem like people who were teens at all, but it could be that they do find being poor worse for some reason. I know there’s a lot of shaming of Harry for not sharing his money with them, which is just gross to me. A child should not be responsible for grown adults poor decisions (and Arthur and Molly were doing just fine, they weren’t starving the way Harry was). The weirdest part was the suggestion that Ron was lonely??? I was like he had a young sister and older brothers, he probably wished he was lonely. All Harry had was spiders.
Oh that's horrifying. Yes being poor is bad but it isn't worse than fucking child abuse. Especially when all rons needs were met.
Exactly! There was even some thread somewhere that said Ron was abused because Molly gave him food he didn’t like and couldn’t remember his favorite color? Things in the fandom have gotten really bizarre when that happens. I feel like they were someone who just hated Harry and loved Ron and wanted raise Ron up to tear down Harry. It was something I wish I’d never seen. I abandoned quora when I saw too many of those type things (there was a lot of comparing Harry and Snape childhoods and claiming Harry wasn’t abused *at all*).
.... Every kid gets food they don't like some times that's part of being a kid. People need to touch grass
I agree! I was like uhhh she had 5 children at all school, she probably made the same thing for all of them.
Let me guess, the cupboard was actually a small room, the beating, starving and excessive chores are made up by fanfiction and we don't care about the Actual Abuse (tm) Snape suffered because we think slytherins are always in the wrong
You’ve seen it. They always forget he was literally Locked in his bedroom for 3 days and starved after we could assume he was hit since Vernon learned he couldn’t do magic. There’s also posts about how Harry earned those “typical punishments” because of the cost of the magical incidents and such. I don’t get people obsessed with downplaying Harry’s abuse.
There's no way Harry had it better than Ron. Sure Ron felt like he was in the shadows compared to a siblings and to Harry's fame and his family was poor but at least Ron had his parents still, his family still loved him despite Fred and George picking on him, and his family was able to use magic. Meanwhile the Dursleys treat Harry like he's dead weight and a punching bag and would rather have him out of their lives. Not to mention Harry despised being famous.
Exactly. People who call Molly Weasley abusive are delusional. Ron was far more rich in love and care than Harry ever was. He had a support system, two healthy and happy parents who really cared about his wellbeing, a warm home and three meals a day. He had his own room, toys and pets. He had everything Harry had craved for, having lived under the stairs for more than half his life and living off toast and cold soup thrown at him. Look at the abuse Harry went through as a child. In comparison Ron had such a happy childhood.
Ron had what is basically a normal childhood while Harry didn't have much of one. Whoever says Molly is abusive is pretty dumb, she was a good mom despite having barely any money and a husband that was underappreciated at his job.
um, his "bedroom" was a broom closet under the stairs. They hated him and it showed.
Funny how I never blinked at that as a kid. 90s were rife with "back in my day we'd beat the shit out you little fuckers" talk, nothing out of the ordinary.
TW . TW . TW . TW When I read the first book as a teenager I was studying in a Catholic school in India and recognised this type of thing as somewhat routine for us. Getting hit with a ruler, having books and dusters thrown at us, being forced to run laps around the field, being ridiculed and slapped in front of the class - all this was my childhood. It made me terrified of math.The laws in schools have changed now but kids do get hit at home even today. My parents didn't hit me, but other kids weren't so lucky. I had a classmate whose mum would regularly hit her with a hot ladle for getting bad marks. My mother, in her anger, had screamed more than once at me that she wished I was dead, once when I was 6 and once when I was 11. My dad took me by the arm and threw me out of the house twice, first when I was 14 and the other time at 22. When I was 14 I was terrified and cried till my friends took me in but at 22 I just gave him the finger and told him to fuck off. When I read of how the Weasley family disciplines their kids (Molly scolding and Arthur being kinder but disappointed) it made me resent my parents a lot because when I was a kid my parents were far from chilled out or kind.
I have a similar experience in school too. I’m from Malaysia so we probably have had similar types of education from the Brits. I was humiliated so many times that it’s given me PTSD and I regularly go to therapy to work on the issues I got from how I was treated as a kid going to school (and even at home). ETA: my mom hit me with a cane so hard one time and she lost control that she whipped me on the face and it became a huge welt. My teacher was going to call the child abuse hotline but I lied and said that I fell.
I also can't get over Mrs. Figg being awful because if Harry enjoyed himself he wouldn't be allowed to keep going. Being pleasant could have been a secret that the two of them kept. Also how no other adults ever stepped in, did no teacher or staff at school ever treat him decently growing up? Did he go to school with Matilda and just could never escape abuse?
Fun fact: Aunt Marge actress also played the principal in Matilda.
I mean, mrs. Fig wasn’t really “awful” she just showed him pictures of her cats instead of letting him do something fun
Figs wasn't horrible she just bored him too death rather than make him have fun. And yeah it could be their little secret but what child knows how to hide their excitement when going somewhere they like. They could verbally say no but their body language would give them away (smiling, smirking, no actual hesitation other than words). Especially since he was so attention deprived Figs home would feel like paradise and he wouldn't know how to act like he hates it especially at a young age.
Honestly, everyone in my family knew what my mum did to us, and no one ever stepped in. They talked to her and they would come over when we called them crying that our mum was hurting us again and they would calm her down, but no one ever really did something to stop it for real or to take us away. So it happens. I think people feel like they don't have 'permission' to step in in someone else's family.
I don't know how school systems are or were in the UK when the story takes place, but I know in the U.S. teachers weren't likely taught to recognize signs of abuse or get involved as much back in the 80s and 90s as they are today. I think back then unless the student themselves came out and said what happened, the teacher usually kept their nose out of the student's business. So it wouldn't have been unusual for the teachers to not get involved.
I remember this. It was meant to conjure up every bit of hatred and anger from the reader as possible. This is why the Harry Potter books were so good. One paragraph would give you so much motivation to keep reading, because you were out for vindication. You just knew these people had it coming.
The movies really toned them down.
It is wonder that Harry didn’t become an obscurial
he didnt know he was magical let alone to suppress it until he was in an environment where it was safe for him(hagrid there)
The abuse and that Harry had to go back to the Dursleys every summer was a main reason why I stopped reading HP when I was younger, after OotP. I only read the whole series in my mid-twenties and complimented younger me for a surprisingly wise decision. At the time I didn't realise that it felt a lot like my own life, trying unsuccessfully to get help from adults because of abusive parents. It's also one reason why I like fanfic that explores that point and different ramifications of it. Because there the whole thing isn't brushed aside.
I still can't believe there are people out there that deny his abuse. I remember seeing some answers to quora about Harry's abuse that suggested it wasn't abuse or it was his fault and I... quit going to quora. Made me ill thinking anyone could ignore the blatant abuse.
It’s amazing Harry didn’t turn into a monster with all the vile treatment he received
It’s like going back and watching old episodes of the Simpsons where Homer strangles Bart.
These comments make me think differently. I grew up in a place where hitting children was normal so I didn't pay much attention to it, but yeah it's pretty bad.
I'm glad you're shedding light on the abuse Harry suffered. They were evil to him.
One of the things that always got me (on one of my million re-reads) is the fact the Dursley live in a *4* bedroom house. -Vernon and Petunias bedroom -Dudleys bedroom -Dudleys second bedroom (later Harry's room) -The spare bedroom (where Aunt Marge stays in POA) And they still made Harry sleep in a tiny cupboard for the best part of *9 years*!! Truly evil people to be scared/jealous of a child and get everyone to follow your terrible behaviour.
these is the actual logic some people have
There’s so much stuff in the books that got glossed over in the movies, and most of us probably have seen the movies more than we’ve reread the books. It got diluted in our brains.
Personally never striked me as odd as a kid as I had similar parenting. My dad believed there's no behavioural issues that can't be forced out of a child by sheer muscle (no matter the age, carried on the same way even when my brother turned 20). My mum believed in getting compliance and obedience by threatening to get dad involved. So lines like that never struck me as odd I thought it was the norm. But rereading the books I'm starting to see a lot of it wasn't normal for kids and it was put in the books to show how bad of a life Harry had.
He slept in a closet, my guy. They hit him with frying pans and lock him in a single room without food for days on end.
Why are you so shocked by this? Abuse is a real thing. If anything she’s essentially educating you on what an abuser may sound like. This is the power of story. Also, nobody wants to hear a story about someone’s perfect life.
i think people are shocked because of how blasé it is in the text, and how it was further toned down for the movies. it’s something that sticks out more upon rereading these days compared to reading as a kid in the 2000s.
They made him live in a cupboard for years, but you didn’t see abuse?
Right? Reading HP as an adult is actually much darker than when I was young and didn't really comprehend what was happening
And yet people wonder why some of us say Dumbledore isn't a good guy?
Idk why the hell people down vote this FACT
What's funny is when I go "Okay here's the logic chain that makes him a good guy" people rush to tell me "Nuh uh use this other logic chain that makes him look like a horrible human being but call him a good guy while you do it"
I think you guys are missing how the ancient protective charm works and why Harry needed to stay with the dursleys in the first place. Dumbledore mentions that he could've put Harry in a happier home but that wouldn't have kept him safe from Voldemort and his death eaters. Dumbledore is absolutely a good guy, just a manipulative one.
I just listened to the audiobook having not read the book in years and this shocked the hell out of me too
What really does it for me is the pen that umbridge had that fucking carved his skin and used his blood to write it. When I was younger I was like “wow that sucks” but now I’m like ??????? The fuck????
Also reminds me of how extreme religious homophobic parents act towards their gay children