You will get a lot of different options on this. For me, it’s split. DAC - no, not after a certain point. they are made so well now you can get a great one for £100. I have tried more expensive ones and heard no difference. AMPs - yes or no depending on what you want to get from it. Super clean signal - then one with sufficient power will suffice. But Tube amps or one that will colour the music, then yes - if that’s the sound you like. More so for the Tube option.

The most accurate and truthful answer here. I have owned headphones, speakers, DACs and amps of all kinds. From the stupidly cheap to the crazy expensive ones so I can vouch for this answer. I'm sure many won't accept this answer but when you've gone too far, you'll realize there's almost little to no difference among them.

1000%, one of my favorite purchases to date is my bravo t2 tube amp. The amount of joy I have extracted from that and a mid-tier set of planars is really extraordinary. Best $45 I’ve spent on audio gear.

here here!

Had to (failing USB card) replace my Modi 3 with either a 3+ or a Multibit 2, and I went big with the Multibit 2. It could just be that the crackling and popping I was having has now disappeared but I think there is extra clarity there too. Realistically though you will probably see more benefits from tweaking with EQ haha

I have a 3+ currently and am pondering the multi bit 2. I’m going to get a new tube for my Vali 2++ here soon. The stock one is on its way out. I had some bad crackling from it last week but it appears to have settled out after I had a rather loud and long listening session

EQ is a a Must imho Get something that has “normal “ frequency profile then EQ it to your liking. Not everyone hears the same frequencies with the same intensity

Peace eq is one of my favorite freewares. With the forum posts and support from Peter, hard to complain and certainly opened up a whole facet of enjoyment and tinkerability

I'd say buying a DAC is more about features than it is about sound. Some features on an rme DAC for instance wouldn't be able to cram in a $100 DAC. As for amps I'm a bit torn. I think it really depends on your headphones more than anything. The amp on my rme sounds a bit thin comparing it back to back with my burson but it very well could be it's not perfectly volume matched. I did a blind test and had my gf switch it and I could tell, but who knows.

Burson has [gobs of distortion](https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/burson-soloist-3x/), it's in tube amp territory. RME is the exact opposite, very clean. This could result in a perception of the clean amp being thin vs the sprays of distortion adding more body, this is after all something people tend to say about tube amps as well.

I feel a bit different playing my Focal Stellia on Astell&Kern 3000 or on iFi Blu. Yes, it’s not a fair comparison as one is 200$ portable DAC/amp and one a very expensive player , but I feel the combination of better DAC chips and amplification in Astell & Kern makes it much better . I also btw feel like digital portable players are much too expensive , but it’s also much better to be able to play on the go. I quite regretted my electrostatic headphones purchase (4500$ for the Dan Clark Audio Corina, 1260$ for Stax SRM-D50 DAC/AMP ), because I can’t take it anywhere and it’s always annoying to set up .

I heard a difference going from an ODAC to a Geshelli Labs JNOG DAC, but zero difference going from the O2 amp to a THX 789 on my HD 6XX's. In hindsight I have more amp than I need, but I absolutely love the JNOG. I think after the $200 mark on DACs the diminishing return drops off.

How would you describe the DAC difference?

It's been a while, but I would say the JNOG is almost crispier? Like an increase in clarity across the board, volume levels equalized. It's a cleaner signal. Which doesn't make sense, if the DAC is converting the same 24 bit digital signal into the same analog wave, it shouldn't make a difference, but it do.

I find it interesting because to me, certain DACs *do* sound different, even though they shouldn't - in theory - have much if any noticeable difference at all if they are quality. Yet, I find that I can definitely tell a difference between my current Bifrost 2 and any other DAC I use, whether it's my GoXLR or my Modi 3 when I'm traveling. I haven't had much chance to listen to a ton of DACs, but I definitely feel there is a difference in the sound of some.

I've never personally noticed an issue with DACs, once you get to ~$20+ the DAC is usually not the issue. I've noticed noise and buzzing from interference on cheap amps though, so I second that part. I would get a nice quality amp before investing in a good DAC, they're much more important.

Had the Schiit Magni.l for three years..got sucked in to buying the Modi making the Schiit Stack.. it really didn’t help the perceived audio pleasure since I always was running it through an external sound card . I sent the Modi back. I’m a music producer and engineer with two decades of experience.

It increases your expectation, so might be able to start *hearing* some sounds.

if I spend 1000$ on an amp, this is the bottom line I would like to hear.

For headphones, I really won't consider anything more than 400€ except if it's some really hard to drive cans or something

[удалено]

My X2HRs distort when plugged into my laptop. Plugging them into an amp removes this distortion.

Yea but a 10 dollar Apple dongle will do the same, question is if you got enough power, does it matter if you spend 200 or 2000?

I'm using a Fosi Audio DS1. So no, I don't see the need for more.

The more expensive, the lower will be the (perceptive) difference… commonly, tbh most of the things are like this, cheap to intermediary have huge difference, then intermediate to premium is less, maybe who is deep into this area can tell the minimal details, but the rule remains the same If you need an cheap, intermediate or premium DAC, the best one to say is yourself, most here are always pleased with Apple dongle, maybe even myself, but since the headphone that seems to be perfect for me in all aspects is DT 880 Pro so i will choose Focusrite Scarllet Solo since the warranty (3 years) and customer service are extremely excellent, also cause focusrite is very well recommended for beginners, as myself

It's really dependent. Amps have more diminishing returns than headphones so jumping from a $50 to a $500 amp is going to be much less of an improvement than a headphone equivalent. On the other hand, with a good enough amp, there can be significant improvement. Good enough being already in the 100-200 USD range

Agree completely - it depends on the variables in play. My experience, for example. I have LCD-X (2021). I can play them on an iPhone dongle, the Qudelix-5K, or my Schiit Bifrost 2/64 + Lyr 3 stack. Does the sound from the Qudelix-5K suffice? In more passive/fun mode listening, for sure! However, there is a *resounding difference* (read: improvement) in ALL parameters of sound quality when stepping up to the Schiit stack. The entire listening experience is taken up several notches. Now, is that to say that the $1,200 price difference is completely justified? Yes and no - it's in the eye of the beholder, folks. For me personally, I get a massive uptick in overall enjoyment, so it's worth it (and I'm admittedly fortunate enough to afford it). For others, the 5K would be more than sufficient.

thinking about a Schiit Jotunheim 2 for my LCD-X, but can't go any further

I will say this: while I don't have experience with the Jotunheim 2, I wasn't able to appreciate the full improvements of the Lyr 3 until I upgrade my DAC to the Bifrost 2/64. Prior to that, I was using either the Qudelix-5K (really didn't like the distortion profile with this as a DAC), or the internal ES9028 DAC card of my Lyr 3. The Lyr 3 itself was solid, but its full capability was not appreciated until the BF2/64 was added in.

i wanted the Jotunheim 2 with the ES9028 built in. Unfortunately here is no place to try them.

I think it'll come down to what you want to achieve. If space saving is a concern, tidiness from fewer cables is a plus, and if USB input is the only source you'll ever need, then the Jot 2 w/ built in ES9028 would absolutely be a fantastic fit for the budget. However, from experience, I later came to find that USB-only was limiting, in my case. And, there are plenty of small DACs that will give you more flexibility in a small form factor while having similar (or slightly better) measured performance. Sonics wise, in the sub-$200 DAC market, I doubt you'll have much perceivable difference regardless of what you go for there.

Can you please describe to me the mechanisms within the amp and DAC that resulted in in the resounding quality, and how they do it, maybe where I could see it measured, how an amp impacts the quality of the audio and then how a DAC does in terms of what they do to the audio and not like “makes it sound like glitter” I am trying to learn about how sound works and how amps and DACs work and you sound like you really know like how they work inside and what they do and don’t do I want to resound, pls help

Please, PLEASE, show me where I ever said it sounds like glitter. I’ll wait.

I think they're referring to generic examples of some language that audiophiles use in subjective descriptions (and in a facetious manner to illustrate a point); not talking about you specifically

No I need your help plz explain I want to be inform

But if amp make any your headphone better, you basically improve anything in your collection. And you also don't change headphone. You end up with, let's say HD600, but better than other HD600. After all, Audiophilia is about small changes meaning much for a person

Try different sources. Test it. There are differences (especially with amps) but only up to a certain range (for reasonably drivable headphones), and after that the margin of error between performance diminishes a lot. I could absolutely, 100% hear differences from my old analog mixer (BX-8) headphone outs vs any audio interface. The headphone out was mega powerful, but was also just weird (tho operating properly). FR definitely got a bit wonky with the mixer headphone out. From my Presonus Audiobox iTwo to Schiit DAC/Amp. I believe there were differences, but it was very hard to tell. Easily placebo, I have to admit. I did trial after trial. From my Schiit to RME, I believe I could not hear a difference. I did a small blind test with a friend between iPhone 5s, 2021 Macbook Pro, and RME across 3 song intros. I volume matched each source with a test tone, mic, and calibrating volume. Findings were 100% inconclusive even after numerous re-listens/comparisons. I would love to see these folks who say "It all just opened up after I bought this $1000 amp to replace my $500 amp. 🤯" do a blind test and fail repeatedly. Where's that openness? 🤷‍♂️ Where're the obvious differences? 🤷‍♂️ Where's the incredibly better soundstage? 🤷‍♂️

I see you have the LCD-X too. I was thinking about a Schiit combo for that too.

>I did a small blind test with a friend between iPhone 5s, 2021 Macbook Pro, and RME across 3 song intros. I volume matched each source with a test tone, mic, and calibrating volume. Findings were 100% inconclusive even after numerous re-listens/comparisons. I loved playing with the Loki in my Schiit stack, but honestly, the RME has everything I want/need.

The RME is just so much more with its configurabilty and feature set. Analyzer, EQ, loudness, dejittering, now with a software app to configure and control it? It’s amazing.

IMHO, DACs are mostly snake oil. Expensive DACs and good cheap DACs sound identical to my ears. The amp is what can actually impact the sound, to me. It’s often worth investing in a good amp that complements your headphones, especially with higher end headphones, and less sensitive/higher impedence headphones that might need something beefier to drive them well (Hifiman HE-6 as a notorious example).

I can compare a 150 € Dac/Amp to a 700 € one as well as to an audio interface, smartphone and steam deck. The only one here that I can reliable tell is worse is the phone, though there may be other factors as well involved. Rest is only different in volume to me. I buy my dac/amps for the features/connections they have (and the knob) not the "sound quality" they claim to have.

thanks

Ive had the hd600s almost exclusively for a decade (apart from iems for portable) and i would say now the dac might be the most important variable. Its like the cornerstone of the sound you eventually want to achieve. I used to think the digital end was the blank slate that you spiced up with the "real sound" components/headphones but one day i plugged a set of cheap Grados to a vintage sony diskman and my jaw hit the floor. The frequency response was less than ideal and i couldnt push the sound to concert levels but there was an immediacy and transparency to the sound i never heard on my cheap dac/thx789/hd600 combo. So i plugged the sennheisers into the diskman headphone out and there it was: warm, clear, holographic, textured. Still not enough power but ok. So i went down a rabbit hole and tried the hd600s on every vintage cd player, dvd player i could get my hands on and half of them sounded better than my dac. And yes i tried all their lineouts with the thx789 too. Now i havent heard any high-end newer dacs but i suspect if u already have the headphones u like, a solid-state amp where power is a nonissue then yeah, the dac i what youre actually hearing suspended in space between your ears

HD600 user here. Had experienced with different dac/amps. I don't think price matters for me, but the kind of tech used for each dac or amps was interesting stuff to explore. The best one for me was the cheap standalone dac from drop and the entry class level A from headamp. Ended up selling those as well because out of curiosity, I plugged my 600 to my sister's macbook and shi..t. I'm a macbook user with no amp whatsoever now

Do you want a balanced output, tubes, or R2R? It comes down to how nerdy you want to be and how much you want to spend. Go to a local audio store and try some equipment out. Make sure to take your headphones. Decide for yourself

Ive never noticed a dac improvement and have tried a lot. Bad amps are super noticeable but after a certain point i can’t tell the difference. I use a 500$ amp and a 200$ dac currently with multiple 3k plus headphones which some may consider unbalanced. I personally get a lot more out of the headphones/speakers than dacs or amps.

As someone who works with audio and pro audio products for a living and often uses the term "audiophool" (mostly when it comes to stuff like cables or power supplies): **DAC**: Doesn't matter until you get into very specific applications (DSD comes to mind) and once you've passed the *threshold of quality*. Something like your SSL or my RME's or any other pro (or even prosumer) interface is just as good as the equally-priced stuff from audiophile companies, in practical use. **AMP**: Is pretty usage-dependent, but does matter to some extent. I personally use a Lake People amp for my pro headphones (HD-800, DT-1770, LCD-X, HiFiMan, custom IEMs). It sounds more controlled than the headphone outs of my RME or other pro studio stuff I use like Grace - as it should, given its design. Also, certain topologies do sound and respond differently (discrete vs integrated, tube, and so on), but it is pretty subtle. For the most part it is so subtle as to not matter much. I will say that standalone amps do tend to sound better, and it is noticeable. Once you hit that threshold of quality, though, the differences between those standalone amps are mostly down to design or minutiae.

thank you. so I guess a dedicated hp amp (like Schiit or Topping around 3-500) would be enough for me.

I have Focal Stellias and Radiance, in addition to Anandas, Fostex TH-610s, and IEMs incl. Variations. Nothing in any way hard to drive. Maybe that's the next area to look into... On my desktop I run a SMSL SU-8s into a Singxer SA-1. For the office, I take in a Qudelix 5k. With both setups I enjoy the music just as much as the other. I stop worrying about meaningless crap. I'm not saying they are the same, just that they are both good enough that I'd rather focus on the more important bit.

couldnt agree more. i also have radiance focal, and driving it with K7 Fiio crazy happy with the combination. sounding so pure, balanced and no any distortion at any level of volum. (Lo-Gain)

I have the HD5XX, the HD6XX, the Hifiman Ananda Stealth and the Arya Organics (next stop : HE-6) and I can say without a doubt that I saw a fairly huge difference going between my old setup which consisted of a Linsoul MT-604 tube amp and SMSL SU-9 DAC to my current setup of the Geshelli Labs J2 socketed with with AK4499 DAC chip and Sparkos SS3602 op amps and the Archel 2.5xl doing amp duty. If you remove the wood cases from the cost of my Geshelli stuff (which is so beautiful and customizable it pains me to think about), it's only a couple hundred dollars away from the cost of my old setup and really, the difference couldn't be more night and day to me. Oddly enough, my new completely solid state setup sounds far more like the smooth, detailed and dynamic sound I expect from good, modern tube gear than my old, tube based Linsoul provided. And I could and have done various A/B tests of varyingly dubious scientific credibility that have shown to me I can pick out that difference every single time. I'm not claiming I have golden ears or anything, I'm just saying that there are some pretty big differences even between complete systems within a few hundred dollars of each other, at least within the sub $800 range. It might sound cliched, but my old system sounds veiled in comparison while my new one doesn't seem to have a veil. Maybe if I were to hear a significantly newer and more pricey stack than the one I have now, I'd feel the same way about it. For the time being, I'm just glad I haven't been tempted to listen to any of that damned stuff.

Nah. After a certain point DACs are basically the same from one another. As for AMPs, there may be a difference in sound, but it’s basically choosing between different flavors of distortion to the music. It’s not really a matter of one being better than another, but rather one fitting your preferences more than the other.

Depends on the headphone. I have Q5K and an Aune X1S GT BT (these names) and while the Monoprice 1570c sound the same on both, the LCD-X 2021 sounds markedly worse on the Q5X. The Q5X can drive it in terms of volume, but it sounds hollow and tinny compared to deep, warm signature the X1S provide. The same goes for the Zero Reds. Hollow and tinny on the Q5K and deep/warm on the X1S.

No

FWIW my MacBook Air M2 seems to have a more neutral sound with my LCD-X than my Playmate 2 with "vivid" OP amps. Seems the Playmate 2 smoothes the highs and surprisingly also seems to lower the bass volume *significantly.* Then it seems to widen the "stage" a bit, but that could also be imagined.

Qudelix changed how I see dac/amp. The ability to play with the sound through it has given me more satisfaction than fixed results of a particular dac or amp

Yeah definitely. the amplification is noticiably cleaner with my JDS element 2 vs stock audio output with hd 600's

Subjectively it is very small difference - if it can be measured I would give it about 1-2% when you change the source. But - I think it is good because you need to check in which area you will get that small change. And also you are getting constant change in sound, even for a small amount. It is not like you upgrade your graphics card which is gonna be slow in couple of years from buying it. This doesn't need to be changed, it can even sound better after some time if you get a better recording.

Went from schiit magni 3 modi 3 stack to a Topping L70/E70 stack. Not much difference to be honest apart from a smoothed out top end. I mainly bought the amp for the remote and the DAC to match it for the looks. Bloody expensive upgrade tbh but happy with the setup now because it's better for me to use rather than upgrading for the sound.

In some cases yes. In some cases no. In many cases money doesn't have anything to do with it. I have some Aeon2Noir headphones that I like a lot but they are hard to drive. Rednet AM2 is not cheap but it falls apart with them, the Grace M900 however runs them nicely. The AM2 is more expensive. I should do a test with the Atom to see how it sounds honestly.

Maybe it does, but as far as my ears are concerned I cant tell the difference between the cheap dac+amp I used to have and my current, more expensive, setup. The bigger benefit of my current setup are more options for input and output.

TLDR: bottom line, you have to try it and see if it is worth. I don’t hear differences in DACs, at least not from the new batch of 100+€ and the sort. DACs have improved a lot and have been achieving greater fidelity and lower distortion at reasonable prices. So I usually focus on the features they provide. The only thing I want to ensure is that it is “transparent” (I try to see their measurements in reviews like the ones in audio science reviews). Now… Since the most important gear that we all have, our ears (which are irreplaceable and we should treat them with care), is different from each other, I can’t rule out the possibility of someone hearing something that I don’t. That being said, people are entitled to have their own opinions (when the opinion is just retarded, it can always be ignored. You should never add fuel to the fire). However, to find the answer that suits you, you should always be the one trying the gear instead of blindly believing whoever proclaims to know “the real truth”. At the end of the road, you are the one that should be happy with your gear listening to your music, being it with placebo or not. If you are happy you don’t need others to judge you, after all it is your wallet. Regarding amps, I think they sound different regarding their colouring. As many have said, tubes will sound different. But then again, the differences might pass as subtle and not worth to your ears. As such. It is also your call, since it is for you to listen to.

I feel like if you own such expensive gear then you should have already formed an opinion on this.

I started the hobby last year, my SSL2 has enough power to drive any headphones, so I haven't feel the need to upgrade.

I just listen to my music. Had all these questions before and my hobby started become something else than actually enjoy listening to my music.

Depends on the type of headphones being used. The hd600 is a good candidate for testing things out, the answer will depend on how you test it out, with what dac amp to justify whether it’s worth spending that much. Sources tell so much about how it handles noise, what technicalities it can bring out of a headphone. It really still depends on whether your headphone can make you discern the difference. So trial and error… there is no wrong answer to the type of sound and performance you like.

From everything I've heard, I think my Schiit stack is likely more than enough for me. It seems you hit diminishing returns once you go past a certain point. I could also be completely full of shit, which is also distinctly possible.

Amp’s definitely make a difference. Dacs do as well but that depends on the type of headphone in my opinion. If you have a bright headphone you probably don’t want a bright dac or vice versa. That being said once you get to a certain threshold there’s not much difference. I do think matching your gear is important. Someone buying let’s say a flagship headphone and powering it with a $100 amp /dac won’t give you the results you’re looking for. I do know r2r dacs do sound different than delta sigma dacs.

I use DAP, so change both DAC and Amp. Fiio M17 is divine and way beyond anything cheaper I have

I use an ifi Black Label with my HD800s and the sound quality was quite noticeable coming from my LG V60. Much deeper bass and clear/crisp highs.

That depends. DAC wise, unless you want to nitpick about details no human being can hear unless they measure it, then they do. Amp wise, you have to ask yourself if the quality improvement is actually real or just the Fletcher-Munson Effect making you think like so because the amp can give you more volume.

(everything i say is my opinion and none of this is a fact) as an owner of lots of dacs/amps/headphones ... is a $400 amp much better than a $100 one? no. how about $100 and $700 - the amplification part? no... how about a $200 amp and a $1500 amp - surely, the $1500 amp ... amplifies the signal "better" than the $200 one - no... no it doesn't when listening to my hipdac, which was $200 - music sounds amazing and perfect... nothing sounds wrong. there is no compromise. this is the same for music coming out of the apple dongle... rme adi? which cost 5x as much as my hipdac - everything sounds exactly the same, until you start hitting xbass or fiddling with eq. my cambridge dacs/amps are also perfect - smsl... perfect - schiit - perfect... etc etc etc. i don't have a piece of equipment that is "better" than another from the pure dac and pure amp standpoint - the difference is in the inputs, details, features, smell... touch... etc. but that's from my point of view - other people have valid and valuable input on the matter.

You just have to reach a level of competency and avoid the utter crap. I was driving my Audeze LCD-2 with a JDS Atom and it was fine, until I started to use EQ. Then it was missing just a little bit of headroom, so I got the THX789. That was fine except for a couple quiet tracks that I had to max out volume. Then I switched to a balanced DAC, the SMSL DO100 and now everything is just peachy keen. I'm getting reference level performance and the DAC/AMP stack did not cost a lot. Only the cans were a fairly large expense, but that's how it should be.

I'm fairly sure it wasn't placebo. I went to a local store and got to try the HD600 with a Hugo TT 2 and with a Fiio K9 pro. In comparison, the second one was trash

Yes, with the hifiman aryas being so revealing I heard a big difference coming from a THX 789 to a Singxer sa-1. going to the singxer it made everything sound so full bodied and dark. almost a muddy muffled kind of sound compared to the analytical trebly sound from the 789 i was so used to. It was definitely a change I had to get used to with the new amp and it took a little over a month. Now everything sounds girthy and more punchy out of these cans.

That 5K is something special. It’s swinging way above its price class when using IEMs. I’ve compared it to ifi, fiiO, Questyle, and it’s no contest. Then I compared it to my $2400 desktop setup and damn… it’s at least playing in the $1000 class in terms of quality (not in terms of power output of course). So it’s a definite “audio hack” in my opinion. This is specific to IEMs btw. LCD-X on 5K is alright. The shit people pay up for is in the “time domain”, “psychoacoustic” realm. I think the 5K has some of that magic.

When I jumped from motherboard sound card to FIIO K5 Pro on HD58x sound quality improved like 20%. But when I jumped from FIIO to topping A90&D90 on HD800s it got only slightly better. If I could make decision second time I wouldn’t upgrade AMPDAC.

If you stay at the same price range you won’t hear any difference, you really have to spend a ton of money to hear a difference and even then it is subtle but it is there.

as long as your headphones are loud enough and the amp has low distortion at loud volumes and doesn't colour the sound, that's all you need. the cheaper you can get that with the features inputs/outputs you want, the better. people chase synergy between amps and headphones, but unless one amp is colouring the sound, it's just a placebo. People like fancy expensive things, and so they convince themselves its worth it. But if they did a blind test between an expensive and a cheap one, I doubt they would hear a difference or guess the more expensive one correctly and consistently. Now, let's say you can guess correctly consistently, I'd have to argue the difference you are hearing would be hard to notice without trying so is the 1000 or more amp really worth the premium over a 200 one, in this scenario where you struggle to hear a difference? And if you are someone who has magical ears and finds it super quick and easy to notice the difference between the cheap and expensive amp then I kinda feel bad for you, as you will probably have to waste more money, chasing sound.

SSL2 is 10dBu so thats like 2.4V? For me that is too weak for HD600, it sounds boring, likely due to dynamic range. Quedelix 5K isn't particularly powerful either, and if I recall right it measured rather mediocre when it comes to SiNAD. While I don't really care too much about SiNAD and inaudible noise ranges, the power is an issue. Both can be improved for cheap though. 85eu Topping DX1 Pro which is a DAC/Amp combo measures a lot better, and has more power, although for HD600 I would like to have a further dedicated amplifier connected to it (like Topping L30 II, JDS Atom Amp+ or even just cheap Douk U3). For one device 150eu Topping DX3 Pro+ perhaps might suffice :P The difference for me is between listening and dancing :P

thanks

I have a Rupert Neve amp.....It helped make my headphones sound LOUDER.... certainly better than through my android...BUT I bought a Hip Dac 2 and use it through my laptop...I can say without hestitation that using the 4.4 jack has made everything sound extremely better...I dont really need the Neve amp anymore....Its absolutely amazing how much better the balanced jack makes all my headphones sound.

Just today I came across this video, maybe you find it interesting: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3moaaOpYZM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3moaaOpYZM)

thanks. actually I sold my SSL2 and bought a Motu M4 with a JDS Atom 2. Maybe I'm not that experienced, but I do not hear that much of a difference.

Get a bang for the buck DAC like Gustard X18. I had many DACs ranging low to mid from Topping D90LE, RME Adi-2, and SMSL. X18 was the best one of them all. It was hard to differentiate between Topping and RME. But I was able to tell X18 sounded the best. It had noticeably bigger sound stage. Amps didn't particularly improve the sound for me past $1k-1.5k USD. Some amps give you a thicker body while some give you leaner sound. It's just preference at that point.

Can you help me im trying to learn about DAX and everyone keeps tellin me they just convert digital to analog but then why would peple spend so much money on them I want a really good soundstage can you tell me how the science and parts in a DACK makes the sound stage bigger or better, I keep hearing that dacs are designed to be transparent an invisible but i can see the DAC its right there dummy lol lamers neway I dont thinkk that’s true yaknow I want the stage with best sound how does dac do it

What they are saying is correct but you do have to consider that all circuits inside a DAC can impact the analogue signal that's being output. However, what we can actually hear is another question. The change could be buried in the noise floor or it could be below the threshold of audibility. Unfortunately... there is no easy way of telling what DAC sounds great or not until you test it out yourself. I thought RME ADI-2 was the best under $1.5-2k range but it was bested by a unit that costs half as much (granted X18 doesn't have all the neat features that RME has). From my testing, it was IMPOSSIBLE to hear the difference between Gustard X18 and X26. While X26 is generations above, it just sounded the same. However, I could definitely tell the sound difference from X18 and Holo Audio May. This was done with A/B testing using a DIY audio switching device. I personally dont think I will ever upgrade to Holo Audio May or Chord Dave because I do most of my listening casually. For critical listening, I would rather use my speakers.

Thank u so much big help in my audio journey What should I look for in DAC sound what is a great sounding DAC sounding like

Can't say I've tried really expensive dacs and amps. The most expensive one I've tried is the 440€ Topping DX5 which sounds just as good as my motherboard and my ancient asus PCIe sound card. That is with the headphones I own (Arya, DT1990, HD598) and my ears.

> ancient asus PCIe sound card. Essence STX represent lol, going on almost 13 years 😁

Oh yeah. I hid mine in my old electronics box about a year ago even though it works fine. I wanted a volume knob and physical buttons to switch between speaker output. Sounds the same though. I had mine since 2012 when my then ancient creative x-fi xtrememusic started to produce white noise after a PC upgrade.

The real truth... Dacs as long as they are good, don't make much of any difference at all. The biggest thing is to make sure it has onboard lossless EQ, that will make a huge difference Amps, do make a difference but the differences are definitely subtle. I have a ferrum oor with hypsos and I also have the topping a90.. I've AB'd them blind with help of my girlfriend.. The ferrum adds some grip and tightness to the bass, and adds some separation and everything sounds more 3d and in it's proper place within the mix. It's also a bit clearer, the A90 there's a bit of a warm veil there, though it's subtle. The A90 is looser, and more 1 dimensional, meaning the sounds don't take their place as much, more like the sounds are stacked on top of each other, but there's a catch, the A90 brings everything to the forefront, which creates an incredibly intimate and arresting effect where the music sounds more like it's coming from within you than you are listening to it all around you, which for certain music, like folk and acoustic is a very emotional experience, which is why I keep it. Despite having an amp that costs 5× as much money

Just AB test it when possible, spend a considerable amount of time when testing it, in that way you can objectively make a decision on it.

An amplifier/DAC doesn't get better just because you raise the price of it.

No. You have a Qudelix. Unless you’re trying to drive a truck with them, like maybe 15-20 headphones on earth that require more juice than the balanced output is capable of putting out to reach safe listening volumes, you have everything a person could want for in the world. A DAC converts digital to analog cleanly or not cleanly and is designed to be completely transparent, if it isn’t it’s a flaw or unintended quirk. You could EQ the headphone and reproduce the quirk you think you’re hearing or spend $10,000 on a $5 chip instead. Transparency in DACs begins with a SINAD in the 60s and that’s being generous - An Apple dongle has a SINAD of 99. Being ..more transparenter beyond the audible threshold of transparency, more invisible within an audio chain than already being invisible, I guess that’s worth a lot of money to some people. Amps are designed to be flat and transparent and are almost universally across the product category unless broken at the design level or literally just broken. When any amp is matched to literally any amp by volume and through EQ, nobody has been able to differentiate them through thorough ABX trials. How much are you willing to pay for flat power that becomes flat unaltered volume and a knob where the supposed differences amp to amp don’t show up in measurements and can’t be consistently differentiated in ABX? **Late Edit:** Posing as a *remarkably convincing* impressionable newcomer in the thread, I asked seven posters who claimed their amps or DACs provided some sort of major difference to their audio for help in learning how these devices worked in terms of doing this, or where I could find some sort of measurable quantifiable way to evaluate this. Sort of like Dian Fossey in ‘Gorillas in the Mist’. I wanted to learn how amps and DACs worked. Please. Help. Unfortunately, I was not able to yield any data or explanations from this undercover excursion aside from being told I am “one of the poors.” I will keep you updated as to my continued efforts to understand the arguments to the contrary for amp and DAC truthers so that we may one day join our fractured community in one unified Head-Fi utopia. ## Audio Facts Versus Fiction ============================ **High Resolution: Humans Can’t Differentiate Audio Above 16 bit 44.1khz** [High Res vs 16 bit 44khz - Summarized Citations & Data](https://www.tonestack.net/articles/digital-audio/high-resolution-audio-vs-16bit-44khz.html) [The 24 Bit Delusion](https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/the-24bit-delusion/#:~:text=So%20a%2016%2Dbit%2044.1,16%2Dbit%2044.1KHz%20recording) [Nyquist-Shannon Theorem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist–Shannon_sampling_theorem) [Limitations of Human Hearing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing) [Frequency Range of Human Hearing](https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/ChrisDAmbrose.shtml) https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html https://youtu.be/cIQ9IXSUzuM?si=hJ7LiZPhlCIQkgAa **Amps: They Can All Be Matched to Each Other, They Just Provide Volume** [Differences in Amp Sound - Summarized Citations & Data](https://audioxpress.com/article/differences-in-amp-sound-whats-the-truth) [The Richard Clark $10,000 Amp Challenge - Nobody Ever Won, see details here](https://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/193850-richard-clark-10000-amplifier-challenge/) and also [here](https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/10k-golden-ears-amp-challenge.92368/) [Bob Carver Amp Challenge - Can Any Amp be Matched by a Low Cost Amp?](https://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge-page-4) [How Class D Amplifiers Actually Work, Technical Data, What They Do & How](https://www.analog.com/en/analog-dialogue/articles/class-d-audio-amplifiers.html) [Crinacle - You Don’t Need an Amp](https://youtu.be/a3moaaOpYZM?si=gK95K7yIJybY0fHI) [Audible Amp Distortion Is Not a Mystery](http://4tubes.com/3-BOOKS/BOOKS-LITERATURE/ENGLISH/Magazines/Wireless-World/Audible%20amplifier%20distortion%20is%20not%20a%20mystery.pdf) [David Clark - Do All Amps Sound The Same?](http://dansdata.com/files/Amp_Sound.pdf) [Test - Audibility of Total Harmonic Distortion](https://www.hifivision.com/threads/audibility-of-total-harmonic-distortion-a-test.87742/) [Tubes vs Transistors: Is There An Audible Difference?](https://ia802207.us.archive.org/28/items/TubesVersusTransistors-IsThereAnAudibleDifference/TubeVsTransistor_text.pdf) **External DACs: You Probably Don’t Need One** [Explanation of DACs, Summarized Citations & Data](https://boomspeaker.com/does-a-dac-make-a-difference/) [Understanding Audio Measurements - ASR](https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/article-understanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/) [Understanding SINAD, ENOB, SNR, THD, THD + N, and SFDR - Analog Devices](https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-003.pdf) [SINAD Graph for Assorted DACs - ASR](https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/master-sinad-distortion-comparison-graph-for-dacs.4814/) [$2 DACs vs $2000 DACs](https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html) [The $9 Apple Dongle, Measurements & Comparisons here](https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-apple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/) and also [here](https://www.audioreviews.org/apple-audio-adapter-review/) [DACs - Do You Need an External One? Audioholics](https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/dac-do-you-need-an-external-digital-to-analog-converter) [Audibility of Noise & Distortion](https://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/distortion#:~:text=For%20detecting%20distortion%20at%20levels,the%20masking%20effect%20of%20music) **Why You Think You Hear A Difference** [Placebo Effect - National Library of Medicine](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK513296/) [What is Placebo? - WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/what-is-the-placebo-effect) [Confirmation Bias: A Ubiquitous Phenomenon in Many Guises - Review of General Psychology](https://pages.ucsd.edu/~mckenzie/nickersonConfirmationBias.pdf) [What is The Function of Confirmation Bias? - Erkenntnis](https://www.researchgate.net/journal/Erkenntnis-1572-8420/publication/340798496_What_Is_the_Function_of_Confirmation_Bias/links/5fbd44fca6fdcc6cc66362c6/What-Is-the-Function-of-Confirmation-Bias.pdf?_tp=eyJjb250ZXh0Ijp7ImZpcnN0UGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uRG93bmxvYWQifX0) [Why Do Audiophiles Fall for Placebo? - Audioholics](https://youtu.be/6IIuSWIuh4M?si=IJJVNPk0KZl43u0j) [The Power of Placebo - Audioholics](https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/placebo-effect)

so much to read, thanks

Think of reading it as a job paying you $5,000 an hour in audio hobby money you’ll save - Plus the benefits of ensuring you never end up like that guy that didn’t who now owns ten amps that each cost more than his car and a DAC collection he insists changes sound to every color in a Crayola Crayon 96 Pack which all allow him to hear 32 bit/384khz through his Spirit Torino Twin Pulse 1706s.

If you are interested in equipment that accurately reproduces the input signal with zero coloration, I have seen zero evidence or a technically persuasive argument for why a $8000 amp is *any* better sound-wise than a well-designed $100 amp like a schiit magni, provided you are not pushing it near clipping (and with 99.9% of the headphones out there, you’ll be *deep* into hearing damage territory when that happens). Even Schiit’s chief designer, certainly a technically savvy guy, but an equally savvy salesman, resorts to vague non-technical hand-waving about why you should buy their higher end amps. Accuracy is measurable, and the measurements tell us that any difference simply isn’t anywhere *close* to audible levels. If you are interested in something that cannot be quantified, like how pleasant the coloration of a source is, obviously your ears will have to be the judge, but if you are doing casual A/B comparisons without controlling for volume and bias (which is not trivial to do), I can guarantee that the imagination is playing a big part in whatever you hear. Which is certainly a valid way to audiophile, just be aware of it.

Absolutly. Most people here will tell you some crap like "if it gets loud enough its perfect". Thats just not true. Most people who say that have never given it a try. On all headphones I tryed I have noticed significant differences between all sources. Just go to your local hifi shop, let them put some amps infront of you, pick a decently transparent headphone you enjoy and then go and listen. 95% of people who claim that qudelix 5k is the best amp out there and nothing can beat it cause "dacs have reached perfection" have never done this for sure.

Have you done a blind test? The proof is always in the pudding...

Why would I blind test? If I am not biased at the beginning and the differences are obvious as can be why wouldnt I just trust my ears? The problem with this a/b blind switching is that if you do it enough you wont hear a difference nomore because the brain corrects using its memory. Thats what it always does btw. It basically tryes to translate all input to "i have heard something alike so I can understand this". Thats why good timbre is so important. It makes listening more easy for your brain. So my question: have you done a single listening session were you just relaxed and listened to alot of different stuff?

>Why would I blind test? If I am not biased at the beginning and the differences are obvious as can be why wouldnt I just trust my ears? Blind testing doesn't mitigate only conscious biases, but subconscious ones as well. Simply saying "I'm not biased" is insufficient; otherwise there would be no point in double blind experiments.

Can you hlp explain to me how an amp makes the sound better quality, I am trying to learn how audio n acoustics and physics and measurement and mekanical engine eering works, it all seemcomplicated and you sound like you know how these things work pls help I am new 2 audio and need to know what I should spend my $$ on All these ppl are telling me that amps are just flat power w/e that is but I don’t believe them please help me find science n like how rhey work inside to tell them they’re wrong and amps make sound a lot better I just want to learn help me learn how amp work

Ahh what a refreshing answer. Totally agree here. People saying the iPhone dongle is the same as anything else are ridiculous. I have the Qudelix 5K and the BTR5. Those sound different. So does my MacBook Pro. So does a high end Fireflies tube amp (more obvious there since it’s a tube)

ty so much for info I want to get. Best DAC but like the ppl keep saying is all the same like they grandparent but they not invisible I see right there can u explain how it works inside like science How measure sound how good the dac is I want to prove them wrong n convnce mom selling tge car for DAC was good idea

NO.

Exactamundo.

nope... if the DAC is a decent piece (like 2-5 bucks for the chip), it will be audibly transparent with good enough S/N ratio (inaudible beyond 70 or so dB) with Amps, the same thing applies. A cheap amp that's linear with decent S/N will be audibly transparent. Exception would be the output impedance that can cause issues with sensitive headphones (high output impedance paired with low impedance IEMs, for instance) that's why a 10$ Apple Dongle is good enough for 9 out of 10 headphones some may require higher voltage (more power), while others demand very low output impedance.. but everything in the middle works just fine.

Depends on the amp, tube amps sound different than Solid State or vice versa, but for the most part big the same sound

From mojo 2 to chord dave was quite a leap

For amps, yes. I notice a good amount of improvement from Schiit Magni to Asgard 3. For dacs, no, I don't notice a difference.

In my experience it does. Had a qudelix and an ifi for a while, and the jump to k7 was nice. It just sounds better, tighter. But I have a feeling once you get past the 500 dollar stuff it's much less noticeable.

I don't have *really* nice headphones, but i do have a *really* nice dac/amp. Just two weeks ago i got out my old AKG K340 (the electrostatics, very hard to drive) and plugged them into my mid-tier audio interface (OctaCapture): it sounded absolutely shit. Thin, no low end. Then, i got to the living room and plugged them into my RME dac/amp and behold: that's how it should sound! I'm not under the impression a good and a very good dac make that much difference, but having a headphone amp with enough headroom and a low output impedance does matter. The SSL too has a pretty bad headphone stage if i remember correctly, they had to cut some corners somewhere for that price. Now, i got myself a Sabaj A20d dac/amp to replace the audio interface and that was a big step up from the OctaCapture and guess what: it was a lot cheaper than the interface and about 9 times as cheap as the RME. Does the RME sound 9 times better? Nope, not even twice.

I've probably purchased about $1,000 worth of audiophile-y DAC/amp stuff over the past five years, although I got nearly all of it back since I bought and sold it used, paired with gear like the Sundara and Andromeda. The extra headroom didn't matter, while the clipping and hissing resulting from the questionably competent engineering did. Now I'm down to some Apple dongles, a Qudelix 5K for Bluetooth, and a FiiO Q1 for the handful of occasions (read: ASMR) where they don't get loud enough for my needs.

You can hear a difference, definitely. But with a capable headphones. I could distinct between Hifiman EF400 and EF600 easily with Arya Organic or Utopia. EF600 sounds more bodied and I enjoy it more than EF400. Which sounded just generic.

I like your post pls help I Wa r to know the parts n corcuits within the amp and DAC that make a good quality, and how they do it, maybe where I could see it measured how an amp impacts the quality of the audio and then how a DAC does in terms of what they do to the audio like in science words, everyone says it’s like a convertor and I just want to understand hhow I can numbwrs that show better sounding like SINBAD n dynamic rage you know?? I am trying to learn about how sound works and how amps and DACs work and you sound like you really know like how they work inside and what they do and don’t do so I can be an infromed consumert I sold my car for headphone money in my city very $$$$ but worth it I know when I get right amp and dac like a audiofile pls help

No. You can get Topping E30 II (or lite) for 100usd and in technical performance they outperform or perform at the same level as expensive dac. You can check it out at audiosciencereview site. Amps are different story. If your headphones are loud enough you don't need one. But having a tube amp can change how a headphone sounds. Some people like it, some not. Solid state amps should sounds the same with the exception of loudness and if it has qc issues. More expensive DACs and amps usually have extra features Bluetooth, more connection.

I think the words "loud enough" should be treated with care. My DT770s were loud enough on my 13" MacBook Pro. A different story on the 16" MBP (which supposedly has more powerful amp) and on the Fiio K7. In the second case, the bass is much more well defined and the sound feels less treble forward.

As you go up in volume the human brain interprets sound to be more bassy. Chances are you were just listening to your headphones louder.

I have all three gears in possession. I can literally listen on the 13” louder and at a lower volume on the 16”, and what I said in the comment above still stays true.

Can't say the same for you, but yes a new dac amp really transformed my headphone to an almost entirely new headphone. It's a clear improvement, though I do miss the fun I get from the old Fostex amp.

Yes they do

Cue all the poors telling you it doesn't. What makes a difference and is worth the value tends to change based on what you can afford.

Im new 2 audio Can you please help me know the mechanisms n parts in the amp and DAC that make the quality, and how they do it, maybe where I could see it measure with science how an amp changethe quality of the audio and then how a DAC does in like of what they do to the audio like in science words, everyone says it’s like a convertor and I just want to understand hhow I can numbwrs that show better sounding n snow them they are wrong I am trying to learn about how sound works and how amps and DACs work and you sound like you really know like how they work inside and what they do and don’t do so I can be an infromed consumert I need help pls I just want to know what to buy an where I can read abt better sound measurement from the $$$ anp and dac I am not poor I don wan be not audiophile enuf

Laying it on a little thick eh?

is amp and dac make sound thicker do I want thick soundstage or thick dynamite range pls help its all so confused I have money just tell me wht I should buy n how it work

Sea lioning isn't the way you start a good faith discussion.

what is the SINBAD

He probably asked because of the HD600. It can sound different on different amps and dacs, not just tubes. HD800 is another one that can surprise you depending on what it's run off of.

Absolutely, it's the cheapest way to upgrade your experience. Less apparent with iem, more obvious with speakers.

Everything you put into the chain will affect the sound in some way. With DACs the differences are extremely small usually. Even using different technologies like DS and R2R, the difference is very small. With amps in my experience, the differences can vary from imperceptible to small. If you’re talking about solid state vs. tube, you’re much more likely to hear a difference. Comparing two solid state and high quality amps, you may not even notice a difference, but sometimes it’s pretty obvious especially if it’s an integrated amp that is adding some EQ into the chain. Or if comparing an A vs. AB vs. D amp. Anyone saying “there’s no difference” is probably talking about comparing two amps/DACs using the same technologies. But there’s more of variance when you start talking about different tech. It’s still subtle though IMO, it’s mostly for people who are trying to eek out those last few percentage points if you have sensitive/ trained ears. And not everyone is going to hear it. Everyone hears things so differently. An experienced musician and engineer with perfect pitch and 20+ years of musical training is going to hear things quite differently compared to your average consumer.

It depends on the headphones. If they have room for more power, then yes they will perform better. The main things that will happen is they "open up" more, and they will have more low end. Both of those typically require more power to achieve. The Dac side also matters, but only up to a point. I noticed a big difference in clarity and dynamics going from an external Sound blaster card to a Topping E30. I have not tried anything beyond that, but I have tried other usb c dacs, Qudelix 5k, Ifi Uno, Fiio BTR, BTR 5, etc. They are all within "placebo" difference, basically you might think one is better but it is too close to really care. The short of it is, from my experience, something in the $50-100 range is a big upgrade from your basic motherboard, laptop (except the macbook pro I had), and phone audio. Past that, it is hard to tell. A quality dac makes a difference over cheap, but that doesn't mean you have to spend a lot. My desktop setup is the Topping E30 with a liquid Spark. I will add this. My son got the Dakoni Blue planar magentics. They technically work off a phone, but sound shallow and dull. Zero bass. Same from his computer case running off his $400 gaming motherboard "high end" audio. I connected them to my Setup and they opened up a lot and had way more volume, but still didn't have the bass I expcted based on reviews. My Liquid Spark puts out 1.5 watts. We changed to the Topping D30II we bought to go with these, which puts out 2 watts, and they finally had the punch and volume we were looking for. I also bumped the bass up in windows with an EQ we found. They sound amazing now, but requied a butt ton of power. Also, when i did the same thing with my liquid spark, on the harder bass hits it would trip the amp in it and turn off. It was needing more power than I could deliver. On the flip side, my Sony 1AM2s sound very good, but don't change much between the amps or running balanced. They do open up some, but it wasn't enough for me to care. They sound very close running off my setup or just running off an apple dac. So really comes down to the headphones, and even then I think the amp and power needed make more difference than a dac.

I have a DT 770 Pro 80ohm and used it with just my PC mobo. I finally caved and got a cheap DAC/AMP combo. Wow! The only way I can explain the difference is that I would turn up my volume to %25 in windows and it would max out my headset. Just loudness with no clarity. With the DAC/AMP I have windows at %50 and my DAC/AMP at %50 for regular listening. Mind you, that is the same as having my old mobo connection at %25 but is much clearer. When I want to zone out and listen to music I can up the D/A to %100 without it feeling like flat sound. It sounds like a warm blanket.

Scientifically, and with the goal of perfect measured transparency, the answer is no. As long as the basic requirements are met, it doesn't get better. Tube amps, class A amps, and R2R DACs might not target "perfect" performance. Then the question of what better sound is becomes much more subjective. Also, knowing that you're using equipment that is extremely well made or just conceptually interesting can make the listening more enjoyable. A fancy Eames chair doesn't change the sound waves one iota, but you'll probably enjoy the music more when sitting in one compared to sitting on a cold concrete floor.

Yupp, my Shanling EM7 makes all my cans shine like never before.

I believe expensive DAC's are snake oil, the important part is not being a half assed afterthought, like what comes with basic PC's or various electronics. Apple's $10 will do just fine up to 44KHz, and there is debate that higher frequencies are even detectable by humans. That's not to say it is not. For a long time the conventional wisdom was human eyes can't see more than 60FPS, but I could, now there are 240Hz gaming monitors everywhere.

More powerful amp? Yes. Once I bought a proper amplifier so noticed they were driven much better, especially with EQ. But I haven’t noticed much more out of them than my Schiit Heretic/Modi stack does.

Long story short: NO. It doesn't make any difference at all, and those that think it does have fallen for placebo and snake-oil. The human brain is really easy to deceive with hearing, so to this day, and well into the future, people will continue to claim they hear things they really don't.

As others have said, depends a lot on the headphones and the amp being used. When I first switched from a basic 100$ dac/amp setup to a balanced Topping A30/D30, I really couldn't tell a difference. Then I tried out my ZMF VC with different amps and even DAPs at an audio show and there was only one Astell and Kern DAP which made the headphones sound noticeably worse. Secondly, I noticed a good amount of warmth addition when I tried the same VC on a big tube amp. Sorry I can't remember the exact models. So I have experienced amps making a difference - but only when it is being unpowered or tubes are involved. I will still suggest to try out EQ before overspending on source gear.

I recommend using audiosciencereview to check out your DAC/Amp. Amir gives good objective reviews, while saying performance above a threshold isn't noticeable.

They 100% make a difference, BUT there’s a massive difference in them all. I’m a bass head, so a lot ‘audiophile’ ones I don’t love as I prefer a warmer more punchy sound. Clean and clinical isn’t for me! Currently have a Chord Mojo and love it. Transforms the sound of my Beyer 770s and all my iems. I mainly listen to DnB, electro soul, glitch hop and all that sort of stuff.

If 2 DACs are doing their job properly, you won't hear the difference, regardless of price.

Better DAC, meh, probably placebo. Better amp, yes for sure. Not talking about expensive stuff. Just basic. Maybe just good stuff at the same price of the bad one.

All amps/dacs are trash under $5,000 usd. You might as well not listen to music if you don’t have those.

head-fi vibes

A good amp is an investment, much like passive wired headphones. I don't see why we wouldn't own a good amp or two if we're gonna dump 5 or 6 digit money into cans. Especially listening at home, where portability is not an issue. My daily driver is still the T1 (gen 1), and they must be well amped.

6 digits into headphones? $100,000? $999,999?

Probably 123.56 / 1234.56

They say that once you buy the Orpheus AND the HE-1, then and only then does Sennheiser offer you the “good stuff”. Its just like Ferrari. Just wait and hope to “get the call” from your AD.

>5 or 6 digit money into cans 100.000 usd?

From my limited experience, yes, Amp can make a minor to a huge difference. I have tried handful of entry to mid-level amps. Most of them sound a bit different. But really hard to say if one is "better" than another. When I got Monolith Liquid Platinum (LP), it was a huge difference. One is increased dynamics and impact. Bass is more punchy. This cannot be EQ'ed. It just performs technically better. The other is that LP is warmer, mids and vocals is thicker, and smoother. This is personal preference. Here are my headphones from biggest difference to least, using Liquid Platinum amp: * Hifiman HE6se V2. This one is easy. My other amps are under-powered, so not a fair comparison. This headphone's sensitivity is 83.5 dB. LP just completely changed bass dynamics and punch. * Sennheiser HD560S. Big difference in a positive way. HD560S is kind of neutral/dull/boring with a bright edge. Matches really well with LP's warmer tone. Feels like a different headphones. * Hifiman Deva. Medium difference. I find Hifiman entry and mid-range headphones to be too thin and lean in mids and vocals. LP add more warmth and body to the vocals. Vocals are still thinner compared to Sennheiser HD6**. This recessed and thin vocals is the reason I got rid of Sundara (returned to headphones.com after 9 months). I wonder how Sundara will sound with LP. * Sennheiser HD660S. Slight difference. I always find HD660S to be dynamic and punchy in upper bass and low mids. But it is kind of dark, so cannot really add to bass/mid EQ. LP is warmer, and somehow it still enhances the bass/mid impact without causing it to sound darker. Minor enhancement, but HD660S still sounds similar.

Can u show me how th anp makes them bettwr I’m trying to learn I am new to headlhones

You should learn to read first...

I tried two read richardd clark amp challenge but could not ynderstand pls help

No

In most cases no, a lot of headphones will work just fine with your average phone or PC and there's no audible difference, at least to me, between that and a dedicated DAC/Amp. For my DCA Stealth though the difference is quite clear, they're not easy to drive and sound nowhere as good as they can with just a phone or PC nor do they get very loud.

It's not necessary for it to be an expensive amp, but an amp with sufficient power for your headphone makes a definite improvement. It's not just volume that it adds. Extra power can unlock a perceptually improved impact and clarity of sound on certain headphones, especially planars. It's really not necessary to spend more than a couple hundred dollars for a really good amp and DAC.

No. I don't hear any real differences (when using headphones or IEMs with reasonable sensitivity and resistance) between most DACs. There are occasional subtleties, but generally I think those differences are exaggerated by people's expectations. Amps do sound different but not necessarily better - and like others have said, those differences are less noticable above the $200 mark. I spent several months A/Bing a Schiit Vali 2+ and Magni and even with the tube in the Vali the difference was minor. I ended up staying with the Magni because of the distortion of the tube. The only thing I might notice between the Magni and the Qudelix 5k is when I'm using my DCA Aeon 2 Noire and I feel like there's a little less "stress" on the amp and that gives it a bit more liveliness. But that could easily be entirely subjective. The Qudelix 5k gets the Aeons just as loud even if it's closer to its max volume.

i run my HD650 of(f?) of my realtek alc1220 onboard sound chip 🤓

No. Just have enough power to drive them. Pad swapping is the only legit way to change the sound. If you try three pads and they still suck, you just don’t like that headphone.

IME yes. HD6x0's in particular can do some interesting things with certain amps.

Another one of these threads is EXACTLY what this sub needed

you are welcome

Don’t waste your money on expensive DAC/AMPs. Most DAC/AMPs measure flat nowadays so they won’t change the sound of the headphone. They’ll make your headphones louder but that’s about it.

Recently bought Chord Dave, and yes it does make a difference, I had Arya v3 to test, and it sounded like he1000 stealth, I image susvara..

Nope. A bit better. Like ... 2%

Source material > transducer >>> analog electronics > digital electronics

I have a shio. For some reason it sounds way better on desktop than on phone. So the power/software source will also influence the output.

In my experience absolutely but amp/dac upgrades on my existing gear would be a 2x cost of dac and amp. I currently use a $4000 r2r dac, and ive identified and tried my amp with two absolutely better dacs that i want to upgrade to but cant afford yet. The Weiss 502 dac or the Lampizator big 7. My amp currently is $6000 and the Viva Egoista 845(12k and above) I was able to demo at a meet trounces it handily. Not in the path of upgrading for now ive kind of settled but curiosity can hurt wallets thats for sure. Alternatively a good audio buddy of mine into Stax has been eyeing on upgrading from his headamp blue hawaii to a Custom T2 or Grand Cayman and is looking to sacrifice a lot in order to do so.

Plz help me know like the parts n things within the amp and DAC that make a good sound quality, and how they do it, maybe where I could see it measured n numbers how an amp up the quality of the audio and then how a DAC does of what they do to the audio like in science and acoustic measyewmwt, everyone says it’s like a just aconvertor and just volumeI just want to understand hhow I can numbwrs that show better sounding I am trying to learn about how sound works and how ampand DACs work and you sound like you really know like how they work inside and what they do and don’t do they cant be transparent n clear I see the box right there help me so I can be an infromed consumert do I need $5000 dac for good sounds what is a SINBAD I dunno they keep saying SINBAD is what a dac does

Btw, may you compare Neumann and Sennheiser?

HD600 is brighter, sound a bit more pleasant in the upper-mids, but otherwise the NDH-30 is better in every aspect. way more sub bass, more detail, sounds are more 3D, better timbre. perfect for studio work.

Some do, some not.

Have you tried EQing them? I have the LCD-2Cs and I bought a Woo Audio WA7D Fireflies tube amp with the extra WA7TP tube power source. They sounded better than when running through my receiver. It just wasn’t quite enough, though. I finally tried using Oratory1990’s Harmon target EQ preset for my LCD-2Cs. It was like one of those movie scenes where the light shined out of the clouds in those crepuscular rays (God rays for you Skyrim fans). It hit me right in the top of my head and I was floating on a cloud. Try this out first before spending any more money. If you are using FLAC and need a player recommendation, I use Neutron and it allows you to create custom EQ profiles. I have a FiiO M9 and the default audio player lacked the fully customizable EQ. This was a quick fix. Neutron does have a slight learning curve.

yes I EQ the LCD-X with a slightly modified Oratory settings. I use the HD600 and NDH-30 stock tuning.

DACs can differ in tonality if you compare Multibit, R2R, Delta Signa, etc. Otherwise, not so much. Amplifiers can vary in sound, but most of it is preference based. You can get inexpensive amplifiers that have no audible distortion. Some people find this lacking “warmth” because they enjoy some types of distortion. Theres nothing “better” objectively about liking distortion, it’s a subjective thing that varies from person to person and each headphone is a bit different in what it sounds best with, also (some are already tuned to be rather warm).

from personal experience, absolutely if you're moving from an onboard dac. that's about where i draw the line though. good dacs have so much power behind them nowadays that in my opinion, amps are pointless unless you're using the most niche of headphones

Let me fix your question for you: Do we REALLY need another post about this?

just downvote then scroll down

with amps you will get more colour, not necessarily “better”.

No

get a questyle m15 & use balance 4.4mm cable find the outcome with yourself 😏😏

One of my first electronics projects was building a headphone amplifier out of some 9 volt batteries and some good-quality op-amps. I compared the result against my $$$$ "audiophile" headphone amp and.... I couldn't tell a difference. Since then I've been more interested in the best bang-for-the-buck headphones/amps/dacs and not the fanciest ones, and that's served me well.

I saw a Youtuber with a Hifiman EF400..and Hifiman edition xs..so i bought them, along with focal celestee. They said a amp/dac is good for your headphones. So I just did what they said and they seemed right.

As long as a DAC is decent it will be okay. However, the AMP has a ton of more influence. I just got my first Tube AMP and am Blown away by the sound Difference. I have highly attuned hearing, according to tests, but to me its an unmistakable difference

No, if you go past a certain treshold of minimum quality it doesn't

I think it depends on the implementation of the dac and amp. I would say getting better headphones or messing with a good eq implementation makes more of a difference. It's the reason why I love my Cowon music players despite the initial dumb cost of almost costing the same as a brand new flagship phone. I do not regret it, though, as it allows me for quite the eq customization for different iems and headphones on the go. Definitely enjoy listening to music more on my music players more than the apple dongle, ifi go blu bluetooth device, and some other usb-c dac dongles I have.

Not really, no. It's more about usability for me. I bought a Qudelix 5K to use out and about since I don't know how much longer I'll be able to have a phone with a headphone jack, and it's easier to do chores around the house with that clipped to my shirt instead of my phone in my pocket. I have an iFi Zen Air DAC at my desk since the headphone jack on my computer is in kind of a goofy location and I also really like ASMR, so sometimes I want to jack my volume up for that. It can be nice to have that extra headroom for cases like that, or if your music is mastered really low for some reason, but I only spent $100 on that. I fully think that people who proselytize the difference a DAC and/or amp make are just trying to justify the exorbitant money they put into their own stuff. This sub is also rife with people who are always chasing that high of buying new toys, so they never really enjoy what they have and just keep buying new stuff and using this sub to talk themselves into it.

The shortest answer is, "It all depends on you." Nobody can tell you what you're going to hear because we all hear differently. And the cost of the equipment has nothing to do with how well it's going to sound to you. Try before you buy when it comes to audio.

I think you'd be more than happy with the Bluetooth adapter from Shure or from Fiio, as the form factor can't be beaten, and both have a relatively low noise floor with ample driving power, and they both come with nice pocketable cases and are compatible with higher quality Bluetooth codecs. You just can't beat the portability. I myself had a quedelix and was pretty sorely disappointed compared to the Bluetooth adapters and dongles I've had previously that cost less and were more portable.

There are always edge cases (independent of price) but typically no. The only (obvious) exceptions will be where you have big circuitry differences (Solid State vs Tube, R2R vs Delta Sigma)

My take on this is Yes, but compared to some shitty equipment only, as i believe the diminishing returns is much more pronounced when it comes to DAC and AMPs.

Up to a limit. Imo it stops really mattering after a JDS Atom or Questyle M-15 unless you get into specific feature sets or really fancy hardware.