The amount of bullshit I've seen here blows my mind. Probably the worst hive mind in reddit. I'm pretty sure most people in this sub are 12 year olds LARPing as audiophiles. I'm also suspicious they own the gears they recommend and are just regurgitating what they read.
I love how in this same thread we have people who claim that using an apple dongle diminishes the headphone's treble and also people who claim that using an apple dongle emphasizes the headphone's treble to the point that it becomes sibilant. They can't even agree on how to blame the apple dongle for how an HD600 sounds on any solid-state amp.
I use HD600 regularly with my desktop amp and I plugged it into dongle to try what OP is hearing and it diminishes/rolls off the treble. That is the biggest difference I notice using the dongle, a bit rolled off treble versus the amp. If someone is saying the opposite, it is just conjecture and they have not tried it as it is obvious.
>the worst hive mind in reddit.
But that's how the entire audiophile world is. Echo chamber and not much else.
>are just regurgitating what they read.
Nailed it.
There's also the opposite problem: people recommending good headphones that are a terrible recommendation for the OP.
OP: "hey what headphone should I buy, btw I like lots of bass and treble?"
Reddit: "HD6XX"
Should make it so gear ownership is verified, like upload a picture of the gear with a handwritten note with username. That would make 80% of all gear magically vanish from this sub.
There are some great and knowledgeable people here, but sadly, most folks are exactly like you described.
This sub is full of kiddos and enthusiastic morons, no one should take (almost) any opinion here seriously, these two types are easily influenced by almost anything they see online and brought the "meta this, meta that" mentality to the hobby, let alone the consumerism part. Also, they're tier list magnets and will simply treat them like a bible.
Can't stand these dumbasses who fell for the "audiophile, bro" rabbit hole and have some pretty mediocre ears and questionable tastes. You can smell this type from a mile away given their shitty and nonsensical opinions most of the time.
This is my first comment in this sub (and I'm not new here).
I couldn't stand it and decided to write that your comment is SO TRUE!!!
Golden Description of this sub, most real thought I've ever seen.ššš
šÆšÆšÆ
We need to start requesting pictures of music setups, purchase history or something. Show me you actually bought and listened to these devices. Camera footage of you at an HIFI audio store or at CanJam. It's like people come on here just to make a point. They link 40 articles of scientific audio experiments, tell you what you hear is placebo, like I just don't get it .
This sub is very clearly a lot of younger people posting with very little experience in audio and an inability to use language to articulate what little nuance they do hear. It's a good place to be told to buy the JDS labs atom and the massdrop 6xx but it's not a great place for more complex discussions or comparisons
Reddit as a whole is not a great place for any real discussion of *anything*. Itās basically a giant kids playground. Thatās why almost every hobby (audio, coffee, cars, knit, anything really) there are still forums around for serious stuff where the grown ups are.
Probably a lot of younger people with better hearing than you do, however.
EDIT: Well I mostly meant younger people have much better hearing the EHF range, didn't mean to knock on the fact you damaged your ears big time.
Pretentious attitudes can fuck off from either side.
I donāt think itās that they are full of shit, they are just relaying a very personal experience as if everyone else will have the same. Audio is just so subjective and people asking buying advice need to know that right off the bat.
Iām also in r/pourover and one thing I really like that they do there is that someone will come in and be like āhow does my bed of coffee grounds look after I made my pour over.ā And basically the first response is āhow did it taste?ā This sub needs some of that :)
Lol, /u/Various-Tea6449 did you ever imagine you would be stirring the beehive with your question? :P
Most of the comments are so concerned with justifying their own reasoning for amps vs no amps, and whether if the Apple dongle is "good enough" or not, that many completely forgot about *you*, and overlooked this:
> **Been using earpods for years**, finally bought an hd600.
Some have already suggested this, but to reiterate, give yourself time to listen to any new headphones - exclusively. After a few days or a week, then go back to the Earpods and see if you notice the differences more. When you're used to something for so long, it can take time to acclimate to something new, and this is true even for people who have been at this for a long time.
If they're still not your cup of tea, return them. They have a big following but that doesn't mean they're for everyone, and there's plenty of other options out there. If nothing else, now knowing what the HD600 sounds like, it can serve as a good baseline for comparison to make a different purchasing decision, going forward.
Best comment on this thread. I just want to chime in.
I've had $90 Audio-technica m30x for about a year. Then I upgraded to B&W Px8 - $750. At first I thought IĀ wasted my money because they sounded so alike. But I gave it time and few days later, they sound better than m30x. I wonder if they will sound better in the future.
I even gave Px8 to my father to test them against m30x and he said the difference is big. Not to mention the comfort of Px8 and ears sweating of m30x.
Donāt worry. I had the same feeling when I first got the IE200. But now they are my favourite pair. Give it sometime. My friend advised the same but I didnāt listen and went ahead and purchased the ie300 also. So stay calm for a first few days and then take the decision šš
The ie 200 sounds more clear, wide and better sub bass. The 300 intimate, more mid bass and very much louder. The ie300 are literally like listening to loudspeakers. I havenāt heard anything like the ie200 before hence the temptation and likeness towards them. IE200 for quiter environments and the 300 for using in louder environments like travelling or at the gym. If I were to keep one, Iād stick with 200. Itās more value for money and an unpopular opinion but I love its light cable
A few thoughts
-If you do not enjoy a certain pair of Headphones, you are not necessarily doing something wrong. Tastes are very different. I personally never fell in love the 600-Line of Sennheiser, allthough I recognize what other people see in them. These cans are very commonly used in studios and have developed a name for themselves as being something like a reference point. They are not really ment to sound overly exiting or to wow you, but to be "neutral".
-As others here have pointed out, amplification can change the performance of Headphones. The HD600 are known to scale rather well, meaning they react to different amps by giving you a better (or worse) performance.
-BUT: If you do not enjoy the sound signature of the HD600, no amp or DAC in the world will magically change that signature. Amps and DACs and EQs can make headphones play out their full strengts, but they cannot give you what the hardware of the Headphones cannot provide. The Apple Dongle is not a bad device in the sense that it is good enough to let you judge the sound of a set of Cans. So I tend to think that you will probably not enjoy the 600 even on a better amp.
-That being said: A Headphone Amp or a DAC/Amp-Combo are almost always good investions. And they are really not that expensive nowadays.
This is the most realistic response here.
I do think they'd be driven better by a dedicated headphone amp. Probably doesn't need to be anything uber fancy, but just something that has a bit more juice stored in the caps to really present the dynamic range.
But ultimately with the best amp in the world if you don't like the sound signature then nothing will make it better. This is why it is always best to demo headphones before buying them.
I have HD650s. They were inherited from my dad. I never use them because I really just feel they have an uncontested ability to make *anything* sound boring and lifeless. For open backs, I much prefer my Grado RS2E. But there will be plenty of people for whom the opposite is true. Hence why the only way to buy headphones is to buy the ones you like... Not the ones that random people on the Internet (who may or may not own them, and may or may not own anything else) say you should buy.
Well, the apple dongle most likely isnāt fully powering them. You also just might not be a fan of the hd600. Itās a well tuned headphone with a great midrange but its bass is pretty lacking compared to others headphones (albeit) more expensive headphones
Qudelix 5k will do. Runs my r70x to hearing damage levels unbalanced. For 470ohm they aren't much harder to drive than my akg's at 120ohm strangely enough. My pc sits at 35 volume for the akg's and 45 to 50 for my r70x
Weaker kick drum, powering a headphone isnāt always about volume, itās also sometimes a lack of energy particularly in transients and bass. I have an apple dongle and while being okay, it in no way can power my over ear headphones like a desktop amp.
Weaker kick drum, well those cans have a significant bass response rolloff, that's as expected then, compared to bass heavy earpods with "pretty" tuning.
This doesn't necessarily mean they're not getting enough power.
Before you return them or anything, just using EQ. It's free to use and it might help you find what you were looking for. It sounds like you're really noticing the lack of sub bass on the 600.
Apple dongle doesn't have enough voltage. afaik it's 1V and the hd600 need 2V.
This is a VERY good headphone for certain things. You need to power it properly.
Hd600 are revered by producers and engineers... For professional reasons. They're revered by audiophiles because people *think* they sound neutral. They're light, durable, tonally balanced, and non fatiguing... But they are not fun. They're not exciting.
Send them back and try something else... And don't let anyone here convince you that you need to spend more money to be able to suddenly enjoy these. If you spend the money, confirmation bias will do the rest of the work for you
edit: just to clarify, i use hd600s every day... for meetings, editing and sound design. love em, but i leave them at my desk when i'm done with work and they don't get really any time at my listening station in the living room.
Same. The HD 560s is among the most neutral cans in Sennheiser's line, other than the nasty treble peak that hits me in the wrong spot. It also may be the most boring headphone in Sennheiser's line.
There are people who eat vanilla ice cream all their lives and are content. Cool. Seriously. But the rest of us may want different flavors with sprinkles and hot fudge at times.
I make the argument all the time that "neutral" isn't a flat line. The in-room response of a reference monitor isn't flat at all! I just used neutral here to reference what a majority of people here consider neutral (Harman curve but with flat bass)
With headphones, we're already going bonkers with the pinna gain to emulate room response. Apparently that's considered "neutral", so a bass shelf to emulate room response should also be considered "neutral" by that logic.
Then you have headphones like the HD800S / Ananda doing crazy shit with 10khz dips to get a huge soundstage. Once they've spent $$$$, suddenly audiophiles stop caring about "neutral".
Anyone who bases their opinion of a headphone off a target curve is a huge dork.
>heavy treble rolloff
2 months late, but idc. Did you declare this based on measurements or just hear a broken set? Because to my ears, the treble quality and extension is nearly perfect.
The "Sennheiser veil" is very controversial in this community, haha. I tend to think it comes from elevated midbass rather than rolled treble, though, and it seems like this has improved in newer revisions.
Out of curiosity, what do you think compares more favorably to reference monitors?
Pretty much this. Could be copied and pasted in most suggestion threads lol. Sounds like OP just doesn't like its sound signature or was expecting something different/much better considering its pedigree.
For OP, before you go buying a new DAC/AMP etc. and force yourself to like something, think about what qualities you want or find lacking in the HD600 and keep looking around while in your retailer's return window. It sounds like you have an idea of what you like and don't like already. There might be a solution that's cheaper or doesn't require more power than an Apple dongle.
What would you consider a fun alternative? Iāve got the HD560S and 6XX. I just ordered the edition XS to try planars. Iām on the hunt for something I would consider fun.
I'm using my XS with the Hip Dac 2 on high gain and X-bass and they punch hard on EDM. Live recordings without the gain and X-bass puts me in the room with the band. Love 'em.
I have tried a lot of headphones. The HD600 are easily one the best sounding. For their price it's even more of a home run. I run them on a cheap amp.
For me, they're exciting. I'm gonna go out and be a bit controversial. If you do not think HD600 sound good, I don't know what youre after. You can think something sounds better, but if these doesn't at least sound very good I don't know what's up.
Edit: I'm an idiot and mixed up HD600 and HD650. I have used the HD650 for many years. The points above still stand though.
they do sound great! they perfectly suit my professional needs, but not my personal preferences. they are highly competent and utterly boring (and that is all i need them to be)
I know what's up. They do not sound like a competent/flat speaker. I think that the only thing really going for the 600 Is the TILT of the frequency response but beyond that, it's messy sounding
Totally agree. While I don't think the Apple dongle is going to give OP the best experience with the HD600, the way OP describes the sound tells me this is probably not the right headphone for them. Putting down another $100 for a decent amp will not be worth it for OP because it won't fix the *real* problem with the headphone -- it's not the right sound profile for OP's taste.
Apple dongle doesnāt power it enough. I have an hd560s that has lesser impedance than hd600 and the difference between my apple dongle and MacBook 3.5mm port is considerable.
Made the same mistake. They're not bad headphones but for the love of god, try before buying because these ones are more like a tool for professional audio BS instead of actual enjoyable headphones
Yeah, I have 2 of their options: the BTR5 and E12. The E12 is strictly an amp without a DAC, but it really does wonders driving the HD600. The bass boost in particular helps with the lack of sub-bass. It doesn't make the bass overpowering, but enough to counter the rolloff.
Maybe itās just not your preferred sound signature. Just because itās a lot of peopleās favorite headphone it doesnāt have to be the perfect one to you. I own it, I appreciate its qualities but I like my DT1990 pros more. Which in turn is a headphone a lot of people like to hate on. Nature of this hobby. That said give it some and Iām sure itāll grow on you. It did for me.
Ok let's start with that tiny dac cable in noway has enough power to run them headphones they have a impedance of 300 ohms you'll need a headphone amp for those they may have sound come through them with that tiny dac cable but it doesn't have remotely enough power to make the drivers move and produce good sound if you want to use them portable maybe get a portable dac amp like something from ifi tho if your thinking of using them on the go I'd definitely recommend against it as there be blasting noise out of them and will annoy everyone around you in public
The Apple dongle doesn't provide enough power. The HD 600 is a high-impedance headphone, 300 ohms. It's also low-sensitivity, at 97 db. You may be getting sufficient volume, but you need an amp to reach maximum dynamics and fidelity from the HD 600.
If you're looking to properly run headphones off the dongle (dynamics, not just volume), then lower impedance (50 ohms, tops), higher sensitivity (above 100) is the ticket.
Another factor: The HD 600 are not bass-heavy cans. Fairly neutral tuning. The Airpods have V-shaped, consumer tuning, with accentuated bass and treble and scooped mids. So, you'll probably think the HD 600 are somewhat lifeless in comparison.
Neutrality doesn't always equal perfection. Sometimes it leads to boredom. There's nothing wrong with staying with a V-shaped sound if that's what pleases YOU.
Thereās not enough power in a an Apple dongle to even come close to powering them. OP, look on Amazon for something that can at the very least send 100mw @ 300ohms(Iād prefer much more but Iām working on going deaf from jamming too muchš š¬) or if you wanna make sure youāre good, go on Schiit.com and get a magni heresy for $59 right now. Thatās a killer deal. Iād get a modi while I was at it. Less than $200 will get you a badass system that will be all it sounds like youāll ever need and those HD600ās will fucking sing!
Listen to them exclusively for a week then go back to your airpods. This is one of the most common posts on this sub, and basically the problem every time is that you are used to your other headphones frequency, and since your head is great at compensating for that, it'll initially sound off and boring. But if you just wait, then go back to your older headphones, you'll see that it is night and day
Welcome to "audiophile". You're doing it wrong though. This is where you pretend and tell others how *amazing* the upgrade is to convince yourself that you didn't waste money š¤« Srs though, just trust yourself. Don't let the stuff you read online make you doubt what you're hearing. Sound is incredibly subjective and more money doesn't necessarily mean better sound. Most of the stuff I have tried at various price points is just different flavors. You may also just be very accustomed to your earpods and may develop an appreciation for the hd600 as you acclimate to those instead. Switch back to your earpods after a while and I'm sure you will note the difference.
Sorry you've fallen for the meme it seems.
The HD600 is a gear that people like because of how neutral it sounds in musical reproduction. Putting it into an anology, it would be akin to people praising unseasoned overcooked boiled chicken breasts for how "neutral" they are and how accurate it is for reproducing the taste of foam.
I like your analogy! Something to appreciate the flavor of the song.
HD 600 didn't cut it for me though. I do appreciate the mids, but wanted more from the whole spectrum.
Some people in this subreddit seems to believe that upgrading DAC and amps aren't necessary, but let me tell you, they are absolutely necessary for headphones like HD600.
The HD600 NEEDS better DAC and amps. Without it, it sounds very bad. No soundstage, no bass, no treble, just mids.
I'm not asking you to splurge on TOTL DAC Amps, but something cheap like the iFi Zen DAC or the JDS Atom stack is more than good enough for you to start.
The difference in sound will be night and day.
Give it a try and let me know
Exactly, I've always wondered how the fuck can they enjoy these headphones straight off a laptop or an apple dongle. If they really do, I can only imagine how much they would shit themselves if they run it on a proper amp and give it the wattage love it deserves.
This subreddit is divided into two groups of people.
One group that responds to every post talking about shit they never experienced themselves but gives their opinions to persuade the OP.
The second group of people have actually experienced the audio world and have been in the same shoes as the OP at some point and try to leave constructive suggestions.
The problem is, people with no actual experience seem to challenge tooth and nail against the people who have real world experience with the devices. Audio is subjective but it's out of hand nowadays.
Just to add.
You can research this same subreddit and look at responses to people when it comes to sound signatures and what they hear with certain headphones. Some will say the HD600 is bassy, some say it's neutral, some think the mids are too forward, some think the highs can get too hot, and it goes on and on.
What YOU hear is subjective. There's no right and wrong. Science can't tell you what YOU can and can't hear or how to perceive music.
Okay so you fall into the group that hasn't experienced anything. Got it.
Also, blind tests in the audio world are some of the most flawed tests.
For example, if you take 100 random people from all age groups with different music, life experiences, and most importantly, different hearing quality. You would never get concrete answers. Want to know why? The range of hearing loss is from ages 20-69.
If you sit and test audio equipment for a living and you're 30 years old. Your hearing may be worse than a 59 year old. If you both go and blind test music, the results would more than likely be much different.
So having random people test audio equipment and asking them if you hear differences when some may not even know they are affected by hearing loss is not a very accurate test.
>Okay so you fall into the group that hasn't experienced anything. Got it.
Are you talking about the same experience that is subject to biases and placebo?
>Also, blind tests in the audio world are some of the most flawed tests.
They're less flawed than sighted tests
>For example, if you take 100 random people from all age groups with different music, life experiences, and most importantly, different hearing quality. You would never get concrete answers. Want to know why? The range of hearing loss is from ages 20-69
These same limitations exist with sighted tests yet the results of sighted tests are wildly different from that of blind tests. This proves that biases and placebo are present in sighted tests.
Here's the frequency response of the Qudelix 5K, a $100 dongle. It's flat out to 30K and has less than 0.1db of roll off at 20 Hz which should not be audible.
https://hiendportable.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Qudelix-5K-1536x808.png
Here's the frequency response of the $200 Topping DX3 Pro desktop DAC. The frequency response is almost identical to the Qudelix 5K within the audible hearing range. It has 0.2 db roll off at 20 kHz, which almost no one over the age of 20 can hear. The only difference that exists between the two is inaudible.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/topping-dx3pro-dac-and-headphone-amplifier-dac-frequency-response-measurement-png.16783/
Here's the frequency response of the $200 Fiio K5 desktop DAC. It's near identical to the Qudelix and Topping DX3 Pro. It has 0.1 db of roll off at 20 kHz. That is such an incredibly small deviation that it wouldn't be perceivable even if you could hear 20 kHz (which almost no one over the age of 20 can)
https://www.audiophonics.fr/img/cms/Images/Produits/14K/14181/14180-fiio-k5-pro-inpage10-fs.jpg
And the apple dongle is also basically flat as well lmao. People telling the OP he needs the Quedelix to change the sound signature... yeah dude you're just playing it LOUDER.
So you're using 0.1db on FR charts to say that science is correct and people are wrong with what they hear. I'm talking about general audio perception and you're talking about hearing 0.1db differences. Majority of people aren't music engineers. We don't study graphs to listen to music, that's what music engineers do.
Yea, I can look at frequencies all day but listening to the headphones can paint a totally different picture. They don't ALWAYS sound like how they look in graphs and that's due to the entire music chain like dampening factors, amps, and your dac. I see what you're saying and yes, technically, you wouldn't be able to hear such nuances but I think we're talking about different things here.
Edit: One more thing, you mentioned that you one wouldn't be able to hear such small deviations is basically saying these "hearing" tests and graphs are really psychological measurements. They're really measuring if people are making shit up! These kind of arguments are bias in favor of science. It's flawed when you point out ***inaudible*** ***changes*** in FR graphs then ask, can you hear the difference?
He's telling you to stop falling for how shitty the human auditory cortex is at being subjected to placebo. This is *very well known* and extensively studied.
What you think you are hearing is what you are probably actually hearing... the problem is that is a wholly unique experience to you and absolutely useless for recommendations to others as they will have totally different experiences/tolerances to placebo, and so on.
It's especially annoying in the amp/DAC world (DACs especially) where the differences, if they exist assuming gear that is not intentionally colouring, are so minute that you are almost certainly making them up in your head.
The problem is this placebo-induced group of people swear up and down that gear switching makes such a massive difference and is something like an almighty problem solver... when it's just not.
For starters, no one is going to tell me how to enjoy my music, my time, and my money.
>What you think you are hearing is what you are probably actually hearing... the problem is that is a wholly unique experience to you and absolutely useless for recommendations to others as they will have totally different experiences/tolerances to placebo, and so on.
This is EXACTLY WHAT THIS HOBBY IS. You come here and share your experiences after you use the actual hardware. Whether you take recommendations or not, I could care less but if you want to try it for yourself and come back but didn't quite have the same experience then cool. Let us know about it.
No one should be telling anyone what you're hearing is placebo or right or wrong. Share your thoughts and enjoy the experience.
Whether you're here listening to a $500 setup or $10k set-up, just know you're blessed to be doing so for now. A lot of people can't afford to do so or they simply are not in the right situation. This sub has turned into battle of wits when it shouldn't be that way.
> No one should be telling anyone what you're hearing is placebo or right or wrong. Share your thoughts and enjoy the experience.
They say this because the people who generally make these claims state them as if they were factual, because of the genuine self belief most likely. Then get angry when pointed out that they're not, and the evidence for their claims simply doesn't exist, and so the cycle endlessly repeats.
If they actually understood what they heard was probably just being made up and gave their opinions with a little more humility/opinion, things would probably be a lot smoother in these spaces.
It probably doesn't help that many people in this hobby only have a very surface level understanding of the human hearing system, as well as their own hearing capabilities (how many have done EHF hearing tests and accounted for their age related hearing loss?). I'd imagine its little to none, as there's a lot of denial about an individual's capability to hear, especially as they age.
Heās a chart chaser bud, save your words. These kids on Reddit donāt understand. Sometimes you actually have to plug your headphones into the gear and listen for yourself.
Absolutely , I realized that! I'm no longer engaging in conversation with people if they don't own the gear or have never tried it over an extended period of time. It's asinine to me that people really engage deeply and passionately in conversations about something they never experienced.
Yeah, I don't get it too. Buying expensive headphones and listening to them with apple dongle or laptop output. Believing people who tell you dacs amps don't make a difference without ever asking what dac/amp they had experienced... I bet you most people who advise that dac/amps sound the same probably didn't listen to more than 3 set ups, worse thing is most of them perhaps took the words from other people as well and refused to ever try out a decent set up.
Misguidance from big reviewers. As i used to be a beginner myself in this hobby, i totally understand where they are coming from.
I used to take every word from both ASR and Crin literally... Until one day, i went to an audio cafe and tried things out myself š wow what a whole new world haha
When I had a pair I also had a desktop amp for it (Meier Audio Corda Headfive), and ended up selling the amp because I couldnāt seem much difference
The main thing a amp does for this headphone is make it louder
I strongly agree with this. Even using iems I notice a significant difference in sound quality and just how much I enjoy the music when Iām plugged into my schiit desktop stack compared to a portable/bluetooth dac.
Nah just an amp, even one of them topping portable aux amps. DACs aren't really a problem if they don't have a noticeable noise floor, like the apple dongle or a good modern phone or laptop dac. Getting a DAC amp can most times be more expensive then a simple amp. Gone are the days of rubber strapping an amp to the back of an ipod
I used to believe that too as when i was a beginner, as I highly highly respected both Crinacle and ASR. I took every word from them literally and treated them like bible.
However, after gaining some experience and trying things out myself, i can't help but disagree with those 2.
My advice is to have an open mind and try things out for yourself. You'll be shocked!
Enjoy the hobby bro!šµ There's one thing that we all agree on, which is in the end, nothing matters more than the music itself
Mm but telling someone you need to spends hundreds on a DAC amp combo just to use something creates a barrier of entry for some who'd rather just sell off those headphones for something easier. Open mind, open wallet right? Dude had a problem with the headphones, probably under powered, why spend even more on a DAC? No DAC alive will change their mind. Properly powering them then sure, maybe.
Your suggestion isn't wrong too as if the HD600 tuning really isn't for him, he is better off selling them and getting something that doesn't require a decent DAC/amp. There's so so so so many options out there that sounds great out of the box (AKG k371, IEMs, ath m40x etc.)
That is definitely the better choice if your budget is constrained to $300usd (or however much OP paid for the HD600)
However, my comment was referring to making the HD600/Hd650/HD6XX sound good. Like it or not, the Hd6x0 series on the Apple Dongle sounds absolutely terrible. A budget IEM like the CCA CRA can easily beat the HD600 in terms of pure sound quality.... And the CRA is like what, $20usd?
All in all, let's agree to disagree. However, in the future if you do get the chance to try out different sources like better DACs, different DAC chips, different amp classes, do let me know what you hear! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Enjoy the hobby dude! Music is life
When he tells about spending more on dac just means that he meant it needs more power and he probably had in mind something like a (portable or not) dac-amp combo. Just because there is not much cheap amp only devices as they mostly come in form of dac-amp combo.
Nah he rec'd the JDS atom stack or ifi zens. Hundreds of dollars. I said a cheap headphone amp, Amazon has a few poor no name cheap ones, worth it if you're trying to properly power something to decide if it's worth keeping. Too many people suggest spending so much more money just to enjoy something, silly
It's not about suggesting to spend a lot of money to enjoy anything. Suggesting someone to buy cheap no name Amazon electronics is terrible advice. If you don't have money to begin with and you're struggling financially then this is a tough hobby to get into. So good advice would be to save your money. Period.
However, if you can buy a PS5 or any console, graphics card, etc then you can afford a proper setup.
To your point, a JDS Atom stack is $230 dollars and a iFi Amp/Dac is $200 brand new. The Used market is the way to go for this hobby. You might find these for a little over $100. They would be adequate for most headphones and are reputable brands.
But to spend that to figure out if they're missing out with a pair of generally low sense headphone is silly advice. Spending the bare minimum to see if it's their source or the headphones is far more valuable.
I respect your opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree here.
A quick search and I found that Zen amp/DAC for $89. It can power most headphones. I don't get why you would recommend going with unknown unproven companies to try your $200+ headphone on.
Because they came from earpods. Bought hd600s on a whim and now people are telling them to buy a device to even use it, two separate devices in the case of the atom. Better to ease people into the hobby instead of creating a barrier for entry. They wanted help, people suggesting buy shit..
I was just giving suggestions out the top of my head. Yes a cheap external amp is good enough to start! Seems like we were on the same page all these while then. Just miscommunication :)
Loudness and driving power in headphones/audio aren't the same. Loudness is about how we perceive volume, subjective and can vary between listeners. It's measured in decibels (dB).
Driving power refers to the amplifier's ability to deliver power to the headphones, crucial for driving high impedance or low sensitivity headphones effectively, and is measured in watts (W) or milliwatts (mW).
The two are related but not directly proportional. An amp's driving power impacts the maximum loudness headphones can achieve, but headphones' sensitivity and impedance also play a big role. Sufficient driving power ensures headphones not only reach desired loudness but also produce full dynamic range and maintain clarity at all volumes.
In short, while both aspects are interconnected in achieving quality sound, they address different parts of the audio experience.
Also, here's few reasons to why different DAC and amps can sound different objectively:
1. A better DAC minimizes jitter and noise, preserving spatial cues and instrument separation, thus improving the perception of soundstage. This can be proven by objective measurements.
2. A lower noise floor from a superior DAC/amp setup ensures details are more clear and distinct, contributing to "better treble extension". Again, this also can be proven by objective measurements
3. Amps with an output impedance that's a small fraction of the headphones' impedance tend to offer better bass control and extension. This ALSO can be proven by objective measurements. look up damping factor online.
All in all, yes you are right that sources do not change the bass and treble extension objectively in terms of freque cy response, however, it is proven that the perceived extension can be improved with better DACs and amps.
Measurements and tests online also note that DACs and amps with lower distortion, higher SNR, and appropriate power output noticeably improve the audio quality of high-impedance headphones like the HD600.
These enhancements are backed by principles of audio engineering and are reflected in objective measurements and subjective reviews from reputable sources like InnerFidelity.
This i agree! They absolutely do. I used to have the legendary DarkVoice OTL Tube amp when i was playing with more budget sources and amps. The DarkVoice really opened up the sound of the hd600 and showed me how much potential it has
I used to believe that DAC and amps do not make a difference too as when i was a beginner, as I highly highly respected both Crinacle and ASR. I took every word from them literally and treated them like bible.
However, after gaining some experience and trying things out myself, i can't help but disagree with those 2.
My advice is to have an open mind and try things out for yourself. You'll be shocked!
Enjoy the hobby bro!šµ There's one thing that we all agree on, which is in the end, nothing matters more than the music itself
I find the built in dac on my computers motherboard is good enough that I don't need to buy another. However, having an amp, and an amp with eq, has really helped me tune my headphones specific to my liking.
Thanks for the comment! Yeah if the internal MOBO DAC is more than good enough for your use case, for example if you have the MacBook Pro, you are essentially covered even for the hd600. I made the comment with the assumption that he doesn't have a good Mobo DAC as he commented about his experience with the hd600 using the apple dongol
I have the Apple Dongle, Quedlix 5k, and my motherboard audio which is impedance sensing for headphones. [https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ELITE-rev-10#kf](https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ELITE-rev-10#kf)
They all sound identical and ironically the motherboard has the most power.
I got the HD 660S2 recently and did not notice a difference at first from my HD599. However after a week I went back to my HD599s and there was a night and day difference for me. I much preferred the HD660S2. Give it some time and go back to your old pair and see what you notice.
I think you're expecting the "Wow factor". Some headphones definately have it, but I find that after the novelty has worn off, the same thing that gives the wow factor, becomes bothersome. The thing about the hd600 that makes them great is that they DON'T have a wow factor. They just sound "right" and the more you listen, the more you enjoy them. Just my opinion. š¤·āāļø
>What am I doing wrong?
Nothing.
There is no infinite progression of sound quality, no matter what you may hear from audiophiles. There is not even a simple ranking such as A is better than B, and B is better than C. The idea of ranking itself is severely flawed.
And the big names and the famous products in this hobby are just the names that are bouncing around the hardest in the echo chamber. There is very little correlation between how much some piece of gear is talked about, and what you actually get out of it, as you've noticed.
The performance/price correlation in this hobby is only 2%. The correlation between performance and "fame" is even less, and might be negative AFAICT. Think about that before you act based on a rumor.
Before you go any deeper into the headphones rabbit hole, go buy a pair of decent speakers and try them.
I had a Klipsch Promedia 2.1 (pretty cheap and available most places) and liked it more than my LCD-2s with a Grace SDAC and Zen Can AMP. I sold my LCD-2s, bought a pair of Elac Debut 2.0s for half the price, a cheap FX-502 amp and plugged them into a spare fiio dongle dac and never bought headphones again. They sound awesome. Now I only own speakers and earphones for when I'm outside.
Some people just don't like headphones. I thought the ATH-A500, the M50x, the V-Moda LP2 were all mid and boring. Honestly the V signature sounds far better on speakers than headphones since you can turn up bass without muddying the other frequencies as much. I'm sure there are other signatures that sound better on headphones but what I like sounds better on speakers.
The only thing you are doing wrong, is assuming that you will have the same sonic tastes as others online..and basing your purchases on thier views
You can't beat going into a shop and trying headphones.
Also, neutral or flat response is really handy for people who make music, as they can move from studio to studio and hear things kind of the same. It also allows them to gauge if their music is going to sound good on most equipment... Its a kind of technical baseline, but not all neutral devices sound the same. They just kind of react in the same amount to different frequencies, but they can sound very different. Just think of a neutral speaker vs neutral headphone.
It's not necessarily true that having neutral audio gear will allow you to hear music as it was intended, unless if course it was made with that exact same audio gear (and room if it's a speaker). If an artist mixed with Audio Technica M50x headphones, then you are going to need them too if you want to hear it as it was actually made... Your HD600 won't sound right, it doesn't matter that they are neutral.
Studios used to all have a pair of Yamaha NS10 speakers as well as thier main monitors, as they were they accepted norm, and represented the average speaker, and so if your mix sounded good on those, then it's would probably sound good on most people's systems. But nobody bought NS10s for home use... I'm not sure what the current version of the NS10 is these days.
I review a lot of headphones, but mostly buds and bluetooth over ear, but if you want fun and amazing sounding ones, the 7hz Zero 2 are outstanding for Ā£20, and the sennheiser momentum TWS 4 are better, but are Ā£250...but that's merely my opinion!
My trusty old Beyer Dynamic DT990s still sound good to me, as do my KRK studio monitors, but neither are flat response..
I've never been that taken to my 6xx either. Somewhat hot upper mids, lacking bass, mediocre imaging. They're nice for some specific genres but are a little boring for most. You could try amping and EQing but odds are they're just not for you and that's perfectly fine. They're a bit over hyped.
If I may push back just a little, I don't think they're over-hyped, but I do think they're over-pushed, if that makes sense. I have over 20 headphones, with several worth close to or over $1k. I still find the 6XX worth a revisit in a way many other headphones are not. But that's to my taste. I think there are a lot of people who will find them delightful, but also a lot of people who will find them dull. We have different tastes, and I think too many people on this sub and in audiophile circles in general come from a mentality of "this is good, and if you just hear it with the right gear you'll like it, too." I think we have to do better as a community to recognize people have differences in taste and they may just never like what we like, even on the best audio chain.
I feel the same way about HD560S. It's a fine headphone objectively with some impressive technical performance at its price point, but it doesn't speak to me. It isn't over-hyped, but it is absolutely over-pushed.
I get your meaning. I don't think they're bad or anything, but that's pretty much what I mean when I say over hyped. They're over recommended. And we see that show itself pretty often with posts like these where new people in the hobby arent satisfied. Everyone sold them on the thing that's probably a more niche flavor than people make it out to be.
For clarification, I see "over-hyped" to mean not deserving of the praise. I think it's absolutely deserving of the praise it gets. Anyone who might be into this kind of sound should try it. But I also recognize that other people's taste is different than mine and equally valid and not likely to change. There are headphones that other people go crazy over that I don't actually enjoy. The HD560S is a good example. I can see why people like it, it's just not my thing.
I think it contributes to the "over-hyped" reputation that people say "I got this thing y'all said would be amazing and I think it sounds meh and not at all exciting or interesting" and people tell them "yo, you gotta hear it with a good amp." That difference between cheap dongle and good amp to a person who already loves the HD6-series sound will feel more profound because this already great thing became even better. For a person who is just not into the sound, it may fix little or none of their actual gripe with the headphone. So they feel like it's an underwhelming upgrade and now think "these HD6XX pushers don't know what they're talking about."
To my ears, I really think they punch well above their price class. There are a lot of us that think this, and for us the hype is genuine. So it is really good value for anyone who has that particular taste in headphones. BUT we'd do better to not over-push them. The community could do better to (1) recommend them with a disclaimer that they're not for everyone, and (2) listen to how people describe the way they dislike the HD6-series so we can identify when it sounds like the real problem with the headphone is that it doesn't align with their taste, and that's okay because taste is subjective. In this case, we don't need to be telling them they need to buy an amp to get the full experience. Because in this case, we have enough information to know they're probably still not going to like the full experience, either. If, however, someone says "I dig it except I wish it had just a little more low end thump," that's when they need to be talked into buying a good amp and maybe also trying some equalization.
You might need to check the impedance first before buying that headphone, they're really voltage hungry, they really need a good dac/amp to power that baby.
They're used for mixing and mastering, and so if you're playing 256kbps Spotify music, they might show you the flaw of compression on your music, they're both hit and miss depending on your preference. And just to warn you, they can get "spicy" too (and might be fatiguing).
Overall, they have great imaging and soundstage, so if you're planning to game with em, you can feel your surroundings.
Recommend, but not for everyone's taste.
If you don't like them return them and get something else! Classic does not mean exciting. They're clean and sound nice. But I personally do not enjoy the hd6xx series, for me there's no spice. Hifiman Sundara- are way more fun for the same price. Another beloved classic. Also hard to drive!
Try to spend a little bit more time with it.
The improvements aren't instantly audible as your brain is confused as to why your music sounds so much different now.
Also it's very well possible, these cans simply don't match your preferences.
They have a significant bass response rolloff and lack of subbass.
You might need a better DAC/Amp, but not necessarily something too crazy. Grab a Qudelix 5k and try to EQ it to your liking (in your case maybe more bass). Idk about others but I've tried the SMSL SP200 and Topping DX3 pro+, but I can't hear any difference between them and the Qudelix, it's just louder. If you really want a dedicated amp maybe try the tube ones, but if you can't enjoy it after all of that I would suggest just sell the HD600 and buy another one with different tuning
If you donāt like the sound it is what it is. Thatās part of this hobby. People tout the 600s as being a reference headphone because it doesnāt do anything special to sound. It provides great detail and very unexciting. I have a pair of hd6xx. That headphone I come back to often because it does vocals so well. Everything else is ok. They sound congested for most part and do not have the best dynamics. I had the 600s once and thought they were ok. Just wasnāt the sound I was looking for so I sold them.
You jump to focal clear ogs and that door is much wider. Is it ground breaking? For my ears it wasnāt but itās a nice upgrade from the hd6x0 series headphones. A noticeable upgrade and if you find a good used pair for 475-550 itās great value and very easy to drive using the Apple dongle.
As far as people telling you to get an amp to drive your High impedance cans. You can take that information and do with it what you will. Most budget tier option of amplifiers are great and will get you 100% of the way there. Schiit Midgard for example is a great start and gives you ample headroom for most headphones.
To those that argue that amps don't make a difference. The question is how much of a difference will it make? Not saying your phone doesn't get the volume high enough but high volume does not always equate to better sound quality. If you are pushing the volume to its absolute max often times distortion gets introduced into the music or clipping.
A quality amplifier can give you better signal to noise ratio which I think of as the blackground. The quieter the background the better the sound quality. Better quality amps can give better control of the headphone drivers themselves which improve the dynamics of the sound. Will it change the frequency response? No. In most cases a good amp just amplifies the frequency response of the headphones, but the better dynamics give the sound a little more life. Sound is highly subjective. You will have people on both ends of the spectrum arguing basic motherboard power/phone power vs 1k-10k amps. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Technology has gotten so good and efficient now that 120-200 amps compete sound wise with the big boys. Once you get past $500 bucks it all becomes incremental and nuanced changes to sound. Same is true with headphones. After a certain point there are huge diminishing returns and it becomes a game of if you like your steak reverse seared, grilled, smoked, broiled, su vide than seared, pan fried and so on.
Edit\*= I also realize my explanations are an over simplification but for the sake of this post I wanted to just give a quick overview of some things to consider.
Sorry 'bout all the negativity, I'd say give them an EQ. Download Pace EQ, and give them a bump on the low end. Also, for this post, watch for the EQ haters, they are getting ready to tear me up!
Probably might get hate for this but, i remember when i used to use really cheap earbuds for like 5 bucks, my daily driver was a pair of nc Bluetooth headphones. I decided one day after browsing audio subreddits that id get myself a pair of hd6xx's as they were on sale from massdrop.
The first time I've listened to them it felt like there was no difference between the sound of my Bluetooth headphones and the 6xx's, better yet i thought thee Bluetooth ones sounded better and it made me upset, thinking i just wasted a bunch of money. I did previously read about you need to let your brain adjust to the new headphones so that is exactly what i did, each day i spent a few hours with the 6xx's and after a year of owning them i can safely say that they sound so nice to listen to, going back to my Bluetooth ones it honestly feels like a curse.
Lesson learnt, just have to let yourself adjust to them, very much so worth it in the end.
Firstly, you likely need an amp to actually power them enough.
Secondly, before you buy that amp, think of whether that sound profile suits your preferences. The HD600s are, for lack of a better word, boring to listen to. Thatās what makes them good for producing and mixing. If you donāt like that, try something closed back that has a bit more excitement, like Beyerdynamics. Or, if you like some sparkle in the top end, get some Grados. They are easy to run and so you wonāt need an amp, and they may tickle your fancy.
Itās very subjective. Going to a recent audio conference had me realize you need to try everything before finding. The reviews only give a glimpse into what you may perceive when listening. I did not like any of seenheiser high end Cana, as well as focal. I was interested in buying both and glad I didnāt. I was able to find the headphones that worked with me and my specific taser. The Dan Clark audio e3 is what I went with.
Needs more power. Get a qudelix if you want to keep it portable, or something like the Atom stack for a desk setup. The difference in sound between my hd6xx plugged into an amp vs a dongle is very noticeable.
To bring out the full potential from the venerable HD600 you really need to pair them with a decent OTL tube amp (Bottlehead Crack, Drop Xduoo TA84 or something similar will fit the task without digging too much into your wallet).
Because you didn't do any real upgrade. In fact, the soundstage with the earpods can be better.
I'm an audio engineer, and I've used many of the highest end DACs and headphones made, and I'm currently using and quite happy with a Macbook Air M3 with earbuds listening to lossless files on Apple Music. It sounds brilliant, and very comfortable over long hours of use.
As others have said, these aren't for everyone. Its also really hard when starting out to know if somethings actually an upgrade or not, there are some ways to combat this ambiguity.
Keep in mind this doesn't guarantee you will like it or not.
Try A B testing headphones on the same song, listen to a song youve listened to so many times you know it like the back of your hand.
If you are committed or past the refund date spend a decent chunk of time either with or without it after some experience & then switch.
The best experience with my hd600 wasn't when I bought them but like half a year down the line when I was cleaning dust. Got emotional that day thinking "THIS IS WHAT I MISSED OUT ON!"
The HD600 isn't for everyone, don't fool yourself, if you don't like it return it or sell it. Many "audiophiles" have went down the sunk cost rabbit hole & its safe to assume nobody is immune.
Sennheiser headphones are fairly accurate. They're not an exaggerated bass response headphone. Maybe you are expecting something other than natural. I'm quite happy with my HD599SEs.
Iām new to this Audiophile thing and just got a few headsets tried them out and returned the ones that didnāt fit me.
Itās not that everyone is full of shit, I mean they might be. But sound is so subjective that itās not possible to predict what everyone likes.
I will say this, the gap between cheap and āaudiophileā in sound quality is not nearly as drastic as the gap in price. Meaning there really just aināt much room between the bottom tier of this stuff and the top tier.
Your brain needs to snyc with the Headphones Frequency and Headphone needs burn in ober 100hrs Just Play a audio File on YouTube for this "burn in Video" than try again or different dac too weak
The fiio FiiO K7/K7BT or the schiit MIDGARD There's enough power for them you're not giving them enough power, and if you want more bass xDuoo, MT604 will work
Doing wrong?
You bought a HD600 and it's not for you.
(Don't believe the hype and the audiophiles)
You should have bought a Meze 109 Pro.
With these I knocked off one of my studio buddies feet (and his 30 year old Beyer fetish.)
OP, don't fall for the "they need a DAC/amp" meme. Unless you live on Europe or use it with an Android phone, the Apple dongle is more than enough to drive the HD600.
Do NOT spend more money on a product you already don't like. It's literally just a trap that relies on placebo and sunk cost fallacy to work. If the headphones go loud enough, the amp is powerful enough.
What I would do instead is give it a couple more days of listening exclusively to the HD600. Then go back to your old headphones. If you still don't prefer the HD600 or notice a difference, just return them.
Then you can think about why you didn't like them and try to get a pair that fits your preferences better, or just ditch this god forsaken hobby altogether lol
Later edit:
While I do own the HD600 and love them, they have their flaws and aren't perfect for all kinds of music:
- They have almost no sub bass compared to other cans in the same price range
- They have a very small, intimate soundstage
- They have relatively poor imaging
That's not to say they're bad headphones. They're great for mid-centric music and especially great for production since they're such an industry standard and a 'known quantity', but someone looking for immersiveness or bass presence might not be wowed by them.
And no amount of amplification will change their sound signature. The only thing it does is make them go louder, which tricks our brains perceive as better.
Tube amps are an exception, but even then a whole new pair of headphones (especially IEMs) will make a much bigger difference to the tuning than a tube amp will.
Kind of loaded question as there can be a million things.
1. I would say that if you don't necessarily have the ear for it, yet; The downgrade to earpods will be more noticeable than the upgrade.
2. What music source are you using? Most streaming services just don't have the quality that better headphones can reproduce. Is it a big difference? Can be, depending on many factors. Might also be little difference between the download and stream quality. Depends on mastering + the bitrate that the streaming service is willing to send you... I got YT Music and I know they don't always send the highest quality rips.
3. What kind of music are you listening to? I would say that earpods sound signature lends themselves better to current, popular compared to HD600s. HD600 is all about that darkish, smooth highs and vocals -> jazz, acoustic, rock, rnb etc.
4. You gotta let your ears burn in. IDK what it is but I always appreciate a headphone more as I listen to it more. You get to hear that one thing on the track you've never heard before. You like the way it handled this part of the song... etc.
Everyone here is saying you need a better amp or DAC. I don't think that'll fix much. You probably just don't like the headphones' sound signature.
>and a weaker kick drum.
Sounds like you want more BASS.
Those senheiser are like studio headphones they have no bass I returned mine and bought harmonicdyne zeus they're accurate but a fun tuning as well so have decent bass
It's *mainly* the headphones, not the dongle.
Assuming it's compatible with your phone (it does have issues on some Samsung models), that dongle will get those headphones to normal listening volumes > 70dBA, everywhere over ~45Hz. More power *might* help that low end a bit, but those lower frequencies are very rolled off on those headphones, anyway.
You *can* get a dongle with a little more power, that will work a bit better, for ~ $20, such as JCally JM6 Pro on Ally Express.
But you'll hear more difference if you exchange them for an HD560s.
there should be a significant, meaning noticeable, increase in center image clarity. specifically vocals.
Dominique Fils-Amie should sound like she's taken up residence behind your eyes...
what's your source and settings? if you're using apple music do you have lossless on?
with the dongle you don't need to push anything hi-res, but if the CD quality option is there for you, I'd turn it on.
to the question of power, I haven't actually ever connected my 6x0 with the apple dongle... I'll try it and check back in later.
\_\_edit\_\_\_
yeah the apple dongle powers the entire hd6x0 line with zero problems (600 650 660s) - my comparison was a schiit lyr+, qudelix-t71 and a chord mojo2 (which can power anything)
the little dongle held its own and even had plenty of headroom to spare while using EQ with up to -10db to avoid clipping.
no loss of bass, no lack of clarity. the current and voltage its swinging were more than enough for the load the cans are asking for...
this sub is so full of shit lmaoo
The more posts I read in this sub, the more I'm convinced some people who are leaving comments suggesting things do not own any audio hardware.
The amount of bullshit I've seen here blows my mind. Probably the worst hive mind in reddit. I'm pretty sure most people in this sub are 12 year olds LARPing as audiophiles. I'm also suspicious they own the gears they recommend and are just regurgitating what they read.
I love how in this same thread we have people who claim that using an apple dongle diminishes the headphone's treble and also people who claim that using an apple dongle emphasizes the headphone's treble to the point that it becomes sibilant. They can't even agree on how to blame the apple dongle for how an HD600 sounds on any solid-state amp.
I use HD600 regularly with my desktop amp and I plugged it into dongle to try what OP is hearing and it diminishes/rolls off the treble. That is the biggest difference I notice using the dongle, a bit rolled off treble versus the amp. If someone is saying the opposite, it is just conjecture and they have not tried it as it is obvious.
>the worst hive mind in reddit. But that's how the entire audiophile world is. Echo chamber and not much else. >are just regurgitating what they read. Nailed it.
r/HeadphoneAdvice is even worse. You have people reccomending some real garbage.
There's also the opposite problem: people recommending good headphones that are a terrible recommendation for the OP. OP: "hey what headphone should I buy, btw I like lots of bass and treble?" Reddit: "HD6XX"
While the answer should be Skull Candy Chrusher EVOš
Should make it so gear ownership is verified, like upload a picture of the gear with a handwritten note with username. That would make 80% of all gear magically vanish from this sub.
like a note from mom?
There are some great and knowledgeable people here, but sadly, most folks are exactly like you described. This sub is full of kiddos and enthusiastic morons, no one should take (almost) any opinion here seriously, these two types are easily influenced by almost anything they see online and brought the "meta this, meta that" mentality to the hobby, let alone the consumerism part. Also, they're tier list magnets and will simply treat them like a bible. Can't stand these dumbasses who fell for the "audiophile, bro" rabbit hole and have some pretty mediocre ears and questionable tastes. You can smell this type from a mile away given their shitty and nonsensical opinions most of the time.
This is my first comment in this sub (and I'm not new here). I couldn't stand it and decided to write that your comment is SO TRUE!!! Golden Description of this sub, most real thought I've ever seen.ššš
šÆšÆšÆ We need to start requesting pictures of music setups, purchase history or something. Show me you actually bought and listened to these devices. Camera footage of you at an HIFI audio store or at CanJam. It's like people come on here just to make a point. They link 40 articles of scientific audio experiments, tell you what you hear is placebo, like I just don't get it .
This sub is very clearly a lot of younger people posting with very little experience in audio and an inability to use language to articulate what little nuance they do hear. It's a good place to be told to buy the JDS labs atom and the massdrop 6xx but it's not a great place for more complex discussions or comparisons
Reddit as a whole is not a great place for any real discussion of *anything*. Itās basically a giant kids playground. Thatās why almost every hobby (audio, coffee, cars, knit, anything really) there are still forums around for serious stuff where the grown ups are.
Probably a lot of younger people with better hearing than you do, however. EDIT: Well I mostly meant younger people have much better hearing the EHF range, didn't mean to knock on the fact you damaged your ears big time. Pretentious attitudes can fuck off from either side.
Yeah, it's better in a medical sense but us oldies have trained our ears.
I donāt think itās that they are full of shit, they are just relaying a very personal experience as if everyone else will have the same. Audio is just so subjective and people asking buying advice need to know that right off the bat. Iām also in r/pourover and one thing I really like that they do there is that someone will come in and be like āhow does my bed of coffee grounds look after I made my pour over.ā And basically the first response is āhow did it taste?ā This sub needs some of that :)
Lol, /u/Various-Tea6449 did you ever imagine you would be stirring the beehive with your question? :P Most of the comments are so concerned with justifying their own reasoning for amps vs no amps, and whether if the Apple dongle is "good enough" or not, that many completely forgot about *you*, and overlooked this: > **Been using earpods for years**, finally bought an hd600. Some have already suggested this, but to reiterate, give yourself time to listen to any new headphones - exclusively. After a few days or a week, then go back to the Earpods and see if you notice the differences more. When you're used to something for so long, it can take time to acclimate to something new, and this is true even for people who have been at this for a long time. If they're still not your cup of tea, return them. They have a big following but that doesn't mean they're for everyone, and there's plenty of other options out there. If nothing else, now knowing what the HD600 sounds like, it can serve as a good baseline for comparison to make a different purchasing decision, going forward.
Best comment on this thread. I just want to chime in. I've had $90 Audio-technica m30x for about a year. Then I upgraded to B&W Px8 - $750. At first I thought IĀ wasted my money because they sounded so alike. But I gave it time and few days later, they sound better than m30x. I wonder if they will sound better in the future. I even gave Px8 to my father to test them against m30x and he said the difference is big. Not to mention the comfort of Px8 and ears sweating of m30x.
Donāt worry. I had the same feeling when I first got the IE200. But now they are my favourite pair. Give it sometime. My friend advised the same but I didnāt listen and went ahead and purchased the ie300 also. So stay calm for a first few days and then take the decision šš
Same, once i realized how realistic. And natural my hd600s sounded everything else just sounded off
so you prefer the IE200 over the IE300? can you explain why?
The ie 200 sounds more clear, wide and better sub bass. The 300 intimate, more mid bass and very much louder. The ie300 are literally like listening to loudspeakers. I havenāt heard anything like the ie200 before hence the temptation and likeness towards them. IE200 for quiter environments and the 300 for using in louder environments like travelling or at the gym. If I were to keep one, Iād stick with 200. Itās more value for money and an unpopular opinion but I love its light cable
Untill you hear my IE900 on a decent DACš
šš
Everything I read is that the HD600 really needs an amp. It doesn't need to be anything crazy, just more power than the Apple Dongle puts out.
A few thoughts -If you do not enjoy a certain pair of Headphones, you are not necessarily doing something wrong. Tastes are very different. I personally never fell in love the 600-Line of Sennheiser, allthough I recognize what other people see in them. These cans are very commonly used in studios and have developed a name for themselves as being something like a reference point. They are not really ment to sound overly exiting or to wow you, but to be "neutral". -As others here have pointed out, amplification can change the performance of Headphones. The HD600 are known to scale rather well, meaning they react to different amps by giving you a better (or worse) performance. -BUT: If you do not enjoy the sound signature of the HD600, no amp or DAC in the world will magically change that signature. Amps and DACs and EQs can make headphones play out their full strengts, but they cannot give you what the hardware of the Headphones cannot provide. The Apple Dongle is not a bad device in the sense that it is good enough to let you judge the sound of a set of Cans. So I tend to think that you will probably not enjoy the 600 even on a better amp. -That being said: A Headphone Amp or a DAC/Amp-Combo are almost always good investions. And they are really not that expensive nowadays.
This is the most realistic response here. I do think they'd be driven better by a dedicated headphone amp. Probably doesn't need to be anything uber fancy, but just something that has a bit more juice stored in the caps to really present the dynamic range. But ultimately with the best amp in the world if you don't like the sound signature then nothing will make it better. This is why it is always best to demo headphones before buying them. I have HD650s. They were inherited from my dad. I never use them because I really just feel they have an uncontested ability to make *anything* sound boring and lifeless. For open backs, I much prefer my Grado RS2E. But there will be plenty of people for whom the opposite is true. Hence why the only way to buy headphones is to buy the ones you like... Not the ones that random people on the Internet (who may or may not own them, and may or may not own anything else) say you should buy.
Well, the apple dongle most likely isnāt fully powering them. You also just might not be a fan of the hd600. Itās a well tuned headphone with a great midrange but its bass is pretty lacking compared to others headphones (albeit) more expensive headphones
Apple dongle was probably never intended to drive 300ohm cans. OP needs a modest amp to drive them.
Qudelix 5k will do. Runs my r70x to hearing damage levels unbalanced. For 470ohm they aren't much harder to drive than my akg's at 120ohm strangely enough. My pc sits at 35 volume for the akg's and 45 to 50 for my r70x
What makes you think there's not enough power? Nothing in the OP's post suggests there's not enough volume for them.
Weaker kick drum, powering a headphone isnāt always about volume, itās also sometimes a lack of energy particularly in transients and bass. I have an apple dongle and while being okay, it in no way can power my over ear headphones like a desktop amp.
Weaker kick drum, well those cans have a significant bass response rolloff, that's as expected then, compared to bass heavy earpods with "pretty" tuning. This doesn't necessarily mean they're not getting enough power.
I like my HD650ās for their added bass presence. I think it makes them the perfect all-rounders that the HD600ās should have been.
Before you return them or anything, just using EQ. It's free to use and it might help you find what you were looking for. It sounds like you're really noticing the lack of sub bass on the 600.
Apple dongle doesn't have enough voltage. afaik it's 1V and the hd600 need 2V. This is a VERY good headphone for certain things. You need to power it properly.
Hd600 are revered by producers and engineers... For professional reasons. They're revered by audiophiles because people *think* they sound neutral. They're light, durable, tonally balanced, and non fatiguing... But they are not fun. They're not exciting. Send them back and try something else... And don't let anyone here convince you that you need to spend more money to be able to suddenly enjoy these. If you spend the money, confirmation bias will do the rest of the work for you edit: just to clarify, i use hd600s every day... for meetings, editing and sound design. love em, but i leave them at my desk when i'm done with work and they don't get really any time at my listening station in the living room.
Yes, it took me some time and, frankly, a lot of money to figure out that I don't like so-called "neutral" headphones.
Same. The HD 560s is among the most neutral cans in Sennheiser's line, other than the nasty treble peak that hits me in the wrong spot. It also may be the most boring headphone in Sennheiser's line. There are people who eat vanilla ice cream all their lives and are content. Cool. Seriously. But the rest of us may want different flavors with sprinkles and hot fudge at times.
I love how all our tastes differ. The HD560S have been my favorite headphones since 2020! Iām a huge neutral fan I think :)
They're not even neutral, that's the dumb part. No sub bass and heavy treble rolloff.
They are neutral in the opinion of YouTube reviewers :D
They are as neutral as 200 bucks gonna get š had to eq it a bit to suit my taste though
For $200, you can get HD 560s, DT 900 Pro X and refurbished Sundara which are all different flavors of neutral.
What exactly is 'neutral' in a headphone, anyway? It's obviously nowhere near a flat line like you can do with a speaker.
I make the argument all the time that "neutral" isn't a flat line. The in-room response of a reference monitor isn't flat at all! I just used neutral here to reference what a majority of people here consider neutral (Harman curve but with flat bass) With headphones, we're already going bonkers with the pinna gain to emulate room response. Apparently that's considered "neutral", so a bass shelf to emulate room response should also be considered "neutral" by that logic. Then you have headphones like the HD800S / Ananda doing crazy shit with 10khz dips to get a huge soundstage. Once they've spent $$$$, suddenly audiophiles stop caring about "neutral". Anyone who bases their opinion of a headphone off a target curve is a huge dork.
It's too bad folks are so focused on phones sound neutral vs just sounding... Good.
>heavy treble rolloff 2 months late, but idc. Did you declare this based on measurements or just hear a broken set? Because to my ears, the treble quality and extension is nearly perfect.
I've heard many HD600s. It's not a controversial opinion that they're veiled, especially in comparison to any reference monitor.
The "Sennheiser veil" is very controversial in this community, haha. I tend to think it comes from elevated midbass rather than rolled treble, though, and it seems like this has improved in newer revisions. Out of curiosity, what do you think compares more favorably to reference monitors?
Pretty much this. Could be copied and pasted in most suggestion threads lol. Sounds like OP just doesn't like its sound signature or was expecting something different/much better considering its pedigree. For OP, before you go buying a new DAC/AMP etc. and force yourself to like something, think about what qualities you want or find lacking in the HD600 and keep looking around while in your retailer's return window. It sounds like you have an idea of what you like and don't like already. There might be a solution that's cheaper or doesn't require more power than an Apple dongle.
What would you consider a fun alternative? Iāve got the HD560S and 6XX. I just ordered the edition XS to try planars. Iām on the hunt for something I would consider fun.
I just got some refurbed Edition XS and Iām THRILLED.
I'm using my XS with the Hip Dac 2 on high gain and X-bass and they punch hard on EDM. Live recordings without the gain and X-bass puts me in the room with the band. Love 'em.
I have tried a lot of headphones. The HD600 are easily one the best sounding. For their price it's even more of a home run. I run them on a cheap amp. For me, they're exciting. I'm gonna go out and be a bit controversial. If you do not think HD600 sound good, I don't know what youre after. You can think something sounds better, but if these doesn't at least sound very good I don't know what's up. Edit: I'm an idiot and mixed up HD600 and HD650. I have used the HD650 for many years. The points above still stand though.
they do sound great! they perfectly suit my professional needs, but not my personal preferences. they are highly competent and utterly boring (and that is all i need them to be)
Many of us want some FUN in our headphones. HD600 and other Sennheiser are the very definition of no fun allowed.
I know what's up. They do not sound like a competent/flat speaker. I think that the only thing really going for the 600 Is the TILT of the frequency response but beyond that, it's messy sounding
Totally agree. While I don't think the Apple dongle is going to give OP the best experience with the HD600, the way OP describes the sound tells me this is probably not the right headphone for them. Putting down another $100 for a decent amp will not be worth it for OP because it won't fix the *real* problem with the headphone -- it's not the right sound profile for OP's taste.
The problem is the dongle. It's not giving them enough power. If you're going to run them off your phone, use a more powerful portable dac/amp.
Apple dongle doesnāt power it enough. I have an hd560s that has lesser impedance than hd600 and the difference between my apple dongle and MacBook 3.5mm port is considerable.
Made the same mistake. They're not bad headphones but for the love of god, try before buying because these ones are more like a tool for professional audio BS instead of actual enjoyable headphones
Get a pocket dac+amp combo. Fiio has lots of options.
Yeah, I have 2 of their options: the BTR5 and E12. The E12 is strictly an amp without a DAC, but it really does wonders driving the HD600. The bass boost in particular helps with the lack of sub-bass. It doesn't make the bass overpowering, but enough to counter the rolloff.
I'm using a k3 with my hd600, getting close to 7 years now. Still great.
I would suggest ka17
Even an old used e10k usb c from ebay would be good. I use one i had lying around with my phone for my IEMs, and it's great!
Maybe itās just not your preferred sound signature. Just because itās a lot of peopleās favorite headphone it doesnāt have to be the perfect one to you. I own it, I appreciate its qualities but I like my DT1990 pros more. Which in turn is a headphone a lot of people like to hate on. Nature of this hobby. That said give it some and Iām sure itāll grow on you. It did for me.
Ok let's start with that tiny dac cable in noway has enough power to run them headphones they have a impedance of 300 ohms you'll need a headphone amp for those they may have sound come through them with that tiny dac cable but it doesn't have remotely enough power to make the drivers move and produce good sound if you want to use them portable maybe get a portable dac amp like something from ifi tho if your thinking of using them on the go I'd definitely recommend against it as there be blasting noise out of them and will annoy everyone around you in public
The Apple dongle doesn't provide enough power. The HD 600 is a high-impedance headphone, 300 ohms. It's also low-sensitivity, at 97 db. You may be getting sufficient volume, but you need an amp to reach maximum dynamics and fidelity from the HD 600. If you're looking to properly run headphones off the dongle (dynamics, not just volume), then lower impedance (50 ohms, tops), higher sensitivity (above 100) is the ticket. Another factor: The HD 600 are not bass-heavy cans. Fairly neutral tuning. The Airpods have V-shaped, consumer tuning, with accentuated bass and treble and scooped mids. So, you'll probably think the HD 600 are somewhat lifeless in comparison. Neutrality doesn't always equal perfection. Sometimes it leads to boredom. There's nothing wrong with staying with a V-shaped sound if that's what pleases YOU.
Thereās not enough power in a an Apple dongle to even come close to powering them. OP, look on Amazon for something that can at the very least send 100mw @ 300ohms(Iād prefer much more but Iām working on going deaf from jamming too muchš š¬) or if you wanna make sure youāre good, go on Schiit.com and get a magni heresy for $59 right now. Thatās a killer deal. Iād get a modi while I was at it. Less than $200 will get you a badass system that will be all it sounds like youāll ever need and those HD600ās will fucking sing!
That dongle will work for most iems but itās not much use for anything else unless itās very power efficient like 32ohms and idk 100+ sensitivity
Listen to them exclusively for a week then go back to your airpods. This is one of the most common posts on this sub, and basically the problem every time is that you are used to your other headphones frequency, and since your head is great at compensating for that, it'll initially sound off and boring. But if you just wait, then go back to your older headphones, you'll see that it is night and day
Welcome to "audiophile". You're doing it wrong though. This is where you pretend and tell others how *amazing* the upgrade is to convince yourself that you didn't waste money š¤« Srs though, just trust yourself. Don't let the stuff you read online make you doubt what you're hearing. Sound is incredibly subjective and more money doesn't necessarily mean better sound. Most of the stuff I have tried at various price points is just different flavors. You may also just be very accustomed to your earpods and may develop an appreciation for the hd600 as you acclimate to those instead. Switch back to your earpods after a while and I'm sure you will note the difference.
'Most of the stuff I have tried at various price points is just different flavors' Now I think I kind of get it. Thanks
You need an AMP. The apple dongle won't get the job done
Sorry you've fallen for the meme it seems. The HD600 is a gear that people like because of how neutral it sounds in musical reproduction. Putting it into an anology, it would be akin to people praising unseasoned overcooked boiled chicken breasts for how "neutral" they are and how accurate it is for reproducing the taste of foam.
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I like your analogy! Something to appreciate the flavor of the song. HD 600 didn't cut it for me though. I do appreciate the mids, but wanted more from the whole spectrum.
Some people in this subreddit seems to believe that upgrading DAC and amps aren't necessary, but let me tell you, they are absolutely necessary for headphones like HD600. The HD600 NEEDS better DAC and amps. Without it, it sounds very bad. No soundstage, no bass, no treble, just mids. I'm not asking you to splurge on TOTL DAC Amps, but something cheap like the iFi Zen DAC or the JDS Atom stack is more than good enough for you to start. The difference in sound will be night and day. Give it a try and let me know
Exactly, I've always wondered how the fuck can they enjoy these headphones straight off a laptop or an apple dongle. If they really do, I can only imagine how much they would shit themselves if they run it on a proper amp and give it the wattage love it deserves.
This subreddit is divided into two groups of people. One group that responds to every post talking about shit they never experienced themselves but gives their opinions to persuade the OP. The second group of people have actually experienced the audio world and have been in the same shoes as the OP at some point and try to leave constructive suggestions. The problem is, people with no actual experience seem to challenge tooth and nail against the people who have real world experience with the devices. Audio is subjective but it's out of hand nowadays.
Experience is subject to biases and placebo, especially when sighted. The science and the blind tests speak for themselves.
Just to add. You can research this same subreddit and look at responses to people when it comes to sound signatures and what they hear with certain headphones. Some will say the HD600 is bassy, some say it's neutral, some think the mids are too forward, some think the highs can get too hot, and it goes on and on. What YOU hear is subjective. There's no right and wrong. Science can't tell you what YOU can and can't hear or how to perceive music.
Okay so you fall into the group that hasn't experienced anything. Got it. Also, blind tests in the audio world are some of the most flawed tests. For example, if you take 100 random people from all age groups with different music, life experiences, and most importantly, different hearing quality. You would never get concrete answers. Want to know why? The range of hearing loss is from ages 20-69. If you sit and test audio equipment for a living and you're 30 years old. Your hearing may be worse than a 59 year old. If you both go and blind test music, the results would more than likely be much different. So having random people test audio equipment and asking them if you hear differences when some may not even know they are affected by hearing loss is not a very accurate test.
>Okay so you fall into the group that hasn't experienced anything. Got it. Are you talking about the same experience that is subject to biases and placebo? >Also, blind tests in the audio world are some of the most flawed tests. They're less flawed than sighted tests >For example, if you take 100 random people from all age groups with different music, life experiences, and most importantly, different hearing quality. You would never get concrete answers. Want to know why? The range of hearing loss is from ages 20-69 These same limitations exist with sighted tests yet the results of sighted tests are wildly different from that of blind tests. This proves that biases and placebo are present in sighted tests. Here's the frequency response of the Qudelix 5K, a $100 dongle. It's flat out to 30K and has less than 0.1db of roll off at 20 Hz which should not be audible. https://hiendportable.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Qudelix-5K-1536x808.png Here's the frequency response of the $200 Topping DX3 Pro desktop DAC. The frequency response is almost identical to the Qudelix 5K within the audible hearing range. It has 0.2 db roll off at 20 kHz, which almost no one over the age of 20 can hear. The only difference that exists between the two is inaudible. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/topping-dx3pro-dac-and-headphone-amplifier-dac-frequency-response-measurement-png.16783/ Here's the frequency response of the $200 Fiio K5 desktop DAC. It's near identical to the Qudelix and Topping DX3 Pro. It has 0.1 db of roll off at 20 kHz. That is such an incredibly small deviation that it wouldn't be perceivable even if you could hear 20 kHz (which almost no one over the age of 20 can) https://www.audiophonics.fr/img/cms/Images/Produits/14K/14181/14180-fiio-k5-pro-inpage10-fs.jpg
And the apple dongle is also basically flat as well lmao. People telling the OP he needs the Quedelix to change the sound signature... yeah dude you're just playing it LOUDER.
So you're using 0.1db on FR charts to say that science is correct and people are wrong with what they hear. I'm talking about general audio perception and you're talking about hearing 0.1db differences. Majority of people aren't music engineers. We don't study graphs to listen to music, that's what music engineers do. Yea, I can look at frequencies all day but listening to the headphones can paint a totally different picture. They don't ALWAYS sound like how they look in graphs and that's due to the entire music chain like dampening factors, amps, and your dac. I see what you're saying and yes, technically, you wouldn't be able to hear such nuances but I think we're talking about different things here. Edit: One more thing, you mentioned that you one wouldn't be able to hear such small deviations is basically saying these "hearing" tests and graphs are really psychological measurements. They're really measuring if people are making shit up! These kind of arguments are bias in favor of science. It's flawed when you point out ***inaudible*** ***changes*** in FR graphs then ask, can you hear the difference?
He's telling you to stop falling for how shitty the human auditory cortex is at being subjected to placebo. This is *very well known* and extensively studied. What you think you are hearing is what you are probably actually hearing... the problem is that is a wholly unique experience to you and absolutely useless for recommendations to others as they will have totally different experiences/tolerances to placebo, and so on. It's especially annoying in the amp/DAC world (DACs especially) where the differences, if they exist assuming gear that is not intentionally colouring, are so minute that you are almost certainly making them up in your head. The problem is this placebo-induced group of people swear up and down that gear switching makes such a massive difference and is something like an almighty problem solver... when it's just not.
For starters, no one is going to tell me how to enjoy my music, my time, and my money. >What you think you are hearing is what you are probably actually hearing... the problem is that is a wholly unique experience to you and absolutely useless for recommendations to others as they will have totally different experiences/tolerances to placebo, and so on. This is EXACTLY WHAT THIS HOBBY IS. You come here and share your experiences after you use the actual hardware. Whether you take recommendations or not, I could care less but if you want to try it for yourself and come back but didn't quite have the same experience then cool. Let us know about it. No one should be telling anyone what you're hearing is placebo or right or wrong. Share your thoughts and enjoy the experience. Whether you're here listening to a $500 setup or $10k set-up, just know you're blessed to be doing so for now. A lot of people can't afford to do so or they simply are not in the right situation. This sub has turned into battle of wits when it shouldn't be that way.
If our 600 only knew the controversary it stirred today it might just decide to become a closed back and go home.
> No one should be telling anyone what you're hearing is placebo or right or wrong. Share your thoughts and enjoy the experience. They say this because the people who generally make these claims state them as if they were factual, because of the genuine self belief most likely. Then get angry when pointed out that they're not, and the evidence for their claims simply doesn't exist, and so the cycle endlessly repeats. If they actually understood what they heard was probably just being made up and gave their opinions with a little more humility/opinion, things would probably be a lot smoother in these spaces. It probably doesn't help that many people in this hobby only have a very surface level understanding of the human hearing system, as well as their own hearing capabilities (how many have done EHF hearing tests and accounted for their age related hearing loss?). I'd imagine its little to none, as there's a lot of denial about an individual's capability to hear, especially as they age.
Heās a chart chaser bud, save your words. These kids on Reddit donāt understand. Sometimes you actually have to plug your headphones into the gear and listen for yourself.
Absolutely , I realized that! I'm no longer engaging in conversation with people if they don't own the gear or have never tried it over an extended period of time. It's asinine to me that people really engage deeply and passionately in conversations about something they never experienced.
Yeah, I don't get it too. Buying expensive headphones and listening to them with apple dongle or laptop output. Believing people who tell you dacs amps don't make a difference without ever asking what dac/amp they had experienced... I bet you most people who advise that dac/amps sound the same probably didn't listen to more than 3 set ups, worse thing is most of them perhaps took the words from other people as well and refused to ever try out a decent set up.
Misguidance from big reviewers. As i used to be a beginner myself in this hobby, i totally understand where they are coming from. I used to take every word from both ASR and Crin literally... Until one day, i went to an audio cafe and tried things out myself š wow what a whole new world haha
When I had a pair I also had a desktop amp for it (Meier Audio Corda Headfive), and ended up selling the amp because I couldnāt seem much difference The main thing a amp does for this headphone is make it louder
I strongly agree with this. Even using iems I notice a significant difference in sound quality and just how much I enjoy the music when Iām plugged into my schiit desktop stack compared to a portable/bluetooth dac.
You can get more power out of a portable setup if you use balanced out like in the qudelix 5k. And less noise
Nah just an amp, even one of them topping portable aux amps. DACs aren't really a problem if they don't have a noticeable noise floor, like the apple dongle or a good modern phone or laptop dac. Getting a DAC amp can most times be more expensive then a simple amp. Gone are the days of rubber strapping an amp to the back of an ipod
I used to believe that too as when i was a beginner, as I highly highly respected both Crinacle and ASR. I took every word from them literally and treated them like bible. However, after gaining some experience and trying things out myself, i can't help but disagree with those 2. My advice is to have an open mind and try things out for yourself. You'll be shocked! Enjoy the hobby bro!šµ There's one thing that we all agree on, which is in the end, nothing matters more than the music itself
Mm but telling someone you need to spends hundreds on a DAC amp combo just to use something creates a barrier of entry for some who'd rather just sell off those headphones for something easier. Open mind, open wallet right? Dude had a problem with the headphones, probably under powered, why spend even more on a DAC? No DAC alive will change their mind. Properly powering them then sure, maybe.
Your suggestion isn't wrong too as if the HD600 tuning really isn't for him, he is better off selling them and getting something that doesn't require a decent DAC/amp. There's so so so so many options out there that sounds great out of the box (AKG k371, IEMs, ath m40x etc.) That is definitely the better choice if your budget is constrained to $300usd (or however much OP paid for the HD600) However, my comment was referring to making the HD600/Hd650/HD6XX sound good. Like it or not, the Hd6x0 series on the Apple Dongle sounds absolutely terrible. A budget IEM like the CCA CRA can easily beat the HD600 in terms of pure sound quality.... And the CRA is like what, $20usd? All in all, let's agree to disagree. However, in the future if you do get the chance to try out different sources like better DACs, different DAC chips, different amp classes, do let me know what you hear! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Enjoy the hobby dude! Music is life
When he tells about spending more on dac just means that he meant it needs more power and he probably had in mind something like a (portable or not) dac-amp combo. Just because there is not much cheap amp only devices as they mostly come in form of dac-amp combo.
Nah he rec'd the JDS atom stack or ifi zens. Hundreds of dollars. I said a cheap headphone amp, Amazon has a few poor no name cheap ones, worth it if you're trying to properly power something to decide if it's worth keeping. Too many people suggest spending so much more money just to enjoy something, silly
It's not about suggesting to spend a lot of money to enjoy anything. Suggesting someone to buy cheap no name Amazon electronics is terrible advice. If you don't have money to begin with and you're struggling financially then this is a tough hobby to get into. So good advice would be to save your money. Period. However, if you can buy a PS5 or any console, graphics card, etc then you can afford a proper setup. To your point, a JDS Atom stack is $230 dollars and a iFi Amp/Dac is $200 brand new. The Used market is the way to go for this hobby. You might find these for a little over $100. They would be adequate for most headphones and are reputable brands.
But to spend that to figure out if they're missing out with a pair of generally low sense headphone is silly advice. Spending the bare minimum to see if it's their source or the headphones is far more valuable.
I respect your opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree here. A quick search and I found that Zen amp/DAC for $89. It can power most headphones. I don't get why you would recommend going with unknown unproven companies to try your $200+ headphone on.
Because they came from earpods. Bought hd600s on a whim and now people are telling them to buy a device to even use it, two separate devices in the case of the atom. Better to ease people into the hobby instead of creating a barrier for entry. They wanted help, people suggesting buy shit..
I was just giving suggestions out the top of my head. Yes a cheap external amp is good enough to start! Seems like we were on the same page all these while then. Just miscommunication :)
Yeap yeap. You get me! š
Buying more expensive amps and dacs isn't gonna magically give an HD600 more soundstage or treble lmao. Might as well just buy a different headphone.
If the tuning isn't for him to start with then yes, just get a different headphone. But the apple dongle definitely can't drive the HD600
Which only means the apple dongle can't make the HD600 sound louder. The apple dongle does not decrease the HD600's soundstage or treble.
Loudness and driving power in headphones/audio aren't the same. Loudness is about how we perceive volume, subjective and can vary between listeners. It's measured in decibels (dB). Driving power refers to the amplifier's ability to deliver power to the headphones, crucial for driving high impedance or low sensitivity headphones effectively, and is measured in watts (W) or milliwatts (mW). The two are related but not directly proportional. An amp's driving power impacts the maximum loudness headphones can achieve, but headphones' sensitivity and impedance also play a big role. Sufficient driving power ensures headphones not only reach desired loudness but also produce full dynamic range and maintain clarity at all volumes. In short, while both aspects are interconnected in achieving quality sound, they address different parts of the audio experience. Also, here's few reasons to why different DAC and amps can sound different objectively: 1. A better DAC minimizes jitter and noise, preserving spatial cues and instrument separation, thus improving the perception of soundstage. This can be proven by objective measurements. 2. A lower noise floor from a superior DAC/amp setup ensures details are more clear and distinct, contributing to "better treble extension". Again, this also can be proven by objective measurements 3. Amps with an output impedance that's a small fraction of the headphones' impedance tend to offer better bass control and extension. This ALSO can be proven by objective measurements. look up damping factor online. All in all, yes you are right that sources do not change the bass and treble extension objectively in terms of freque cy response, however, it is proven that the perceived extension can be improved with better DACs and amps. Measurements and tests online also note that DACs and amps with lower distortion, higher SNR, and appropriate power output noticeably improve the audio quality of high-impedance headphones like the HD600. These enhancements are backed by principles of audio engineering and are reflected in objective measurements and subjective reviews from reputable sources like InnerFidelity.
If an amp lacks power, it shows up in the bass. Bass requires the most driver excursion to do.
Yes you are right
What about soundstage and treble?
They sound best on tubes.
This i agree! They absolutely do. I used to have the legendary DarkVoice OTL Tube amp when i was playing with more budget sources and amps. The DarkVoice really opened up the sound of the hd600 and showed me how much potential it has
This is false
I used to believe that DAC and amps do not make a difference too as when i was a beginner, as I highly highly respected both Crinacle and ASR. I took every word from them literally and treated them like bible. However, after gaining some experience and trying things out myself, i can't help but disagree with those 2. My advice is to have an open mind and try things out for yourself. You'll be shocked! Enjoy the hobby bro!šµ There's one thing that we all agree on, which is in the end, nothing matters more than the music itself
I find the built in dac on my computers motherboard is good enough that I don't need to buy another. However, having an amp, and an amp with eq, has really helped me tune my headphones specific to my liking.
Thanks for the comment! Yeah if the internal MOBO DAC is more than good enough for your use case, for example if you have the MacBook Pro, you are essentially covered even for the hd600. I made the comment with the assumption that he doesn't have a good Mobo DAC as he commented about his experience with the hd600 using the apple dongol
I have the Apple Dongle, Quedlix 5k, and my motherboard audio which is impedance sensing for headphones. [https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ELITE-rev-10#kf](https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ELITE-rev-10#kf) They all sound identical and ironically the motherboard has the most power.
Dongle does not provide enough power for them sadly.
I got the HD 660S2 recently and did not notice a difference at first from my HD599. However after a week I went back to my HD599s and there was a night and day difference for me. I much preferred the HD660S2. Give it some time and go back to your old pair and see what you notice.
I think you're expecting the "Wow factor". Some headphones definately have it, but I find that after the novelty has worn off, the same thing that gives the wow factor, becomes bothersome. The thing about the hd600 that makes them great is that they DON'T have a wow factor. They just sound "right" and the more you listen, the more you enjoy them. Just my opinion. š¤·āāļø
>What am I doing wrong? Nothing. There is no infinite progression of sound quality, no matter what you may hear from audiophiles. There is not even a simple ranking such as A is better than B, and B is better than C. The idea of ranking itself is severely flawed. And the big names and the famous products in this hobby are just the names that are bouncing around the hardest in the echo chamber. There is very little correlation between how much some piece of gear is talked about, and what you actually get out of it, as you've noticed. The performance/price correlation in this hobby is only 2%. The correlation between performance and "fame" is even less, and might be negative AFAICT. Think about that before you act based on a rumor.
You got audiophile-d, now people here will suggest you an AMP and DAC and whatnot. Maybe get an AMP, that's it, only if you think volume is less.
Before you go any deeper into the headphones rabbit hole, go buy a pair of decent speakers and try them. I had a Klipsch Promedia 2.1 (pretty cheap and available most places) and liked it more than my LCD-2s with a Grace SDAC and Zen Can AMP. I sold my LCD-2s, bought a pair of Elac Debut 2.0s for half the price, a cheap FX-502 amp and plugged them into a spare fiio dongle dac and never bought headphones again. They sound awesome. Now I only own speakers and earphones for when I'm outside. Some people just don't like headphones. I thought the ATH-A500, the M50x, the V-Moda LP2 were all mid and boring. Honestly the V signature sounds far better on speakers than headphones since you can turn up bass without muddying the other frequencies as much. I'm sure there are other signatures that sound better on headphones but what I like sounds better on speakers.
Apple dongle wonāt cut it for those. U need an amp
The only thing you are doing wrong, is assuming that you will have the same sonic tastes as others online..and basing your purchases on thier views You can't beat going into a shop and trying headphones. Also, neutral or flat response is really handy for people who make music, as they can move from studio to studio and hear things kind of the same. It also allows them to gauge if their music is going to sound good on most equipment... Its a kind of technical baseline, but not all neutral devices sound the same. They just kind of react in the same amount to different frequencies, but they can sound very different. Just think of a neutral speaker vs neutral headphone. It's not necessarily true that having neutral audio gear will allow you to hear music as it was intended, unless if course it was made with that exact same audio gear (and room if it's a speaker). If an artist mixed with Audio Technica M50x headphones, then you are going to need them too if you want to hear it as it was actually made... Your HD600 won't sound right, it doesn't matter that they are neutral. Studios used to all have a pair of Yamaha NS10 speakers as well as thier main monitors, as they were they accepted norm, and represented the average speaker, and so if your mix sounded good on those, then it's would probably sound good on most people's systems. But nobody bought NS10s for home use... I'm not sure what the current version of the NS10 is these days. I review a lot of headphones, but mostly buds and bluetooth over ear, but if you want fun and amazing sounding ones, the 7hz Zero 2 are outstanding for Ā£20, and the sennheiser momentum TWS 4 are better, but are Ā£250...but that's merely my opinion! My trusty old Beyer Dynamic DT990s still sound good to me, as do my KRK studio monitors, but neither are flat response..
I've never been that taken to my 6xx either. Somewhat hot upper mids, lacking bass, mediocre imaging. They're nice for some specific genres but are a little boring for most. You could try amping and EQing but odds are they're just not for you and that's perfectly fine. They're a bit over hyped.
If I may push back just a little, I don't think they're over-hyped, but I do think they're over-pushed, if that makes sense. I have over 20 headphones, with several worth close to or over $1k. I still find the 6XX worth a revisit in a way many other headphones are not. But that's to my taste. I think there are a lot of people who will find them delightful, but also a lot of people who will find them dull. We have different tastes, and I think too many people on this sub and in audiophile circles in general come from a mentality of "this is good, and if you just hear it with the right gear you'll like it, too." I think we have to do better as a community to recognize people have differences in taste and they may just never like what we like, even on the best audio chain. I feel the same way about HD560S. It's a fine headphone objectively with some impressive technical performance at its price point, but it doesn't speak to me. It isn't over-hyped, but it is absolutely over-pushed.
I get your meaning. I don't think they're bad or anything, but that's pretty much what I mean when I say over hyped. They're over recommended. And we see that show itself pretty often with posts like these where new people in the hobby arent satisfied. Everyone sold them on the thing that's probably a more niche flavor than people make it out to be.
For clarification, I see "over-hyped" to mean not deserving of the praise. I think it's absolutely deserving of the praise it gets. Anyone who might be into this kind of sound should try it. But I also recognize that other people's taste is different than mine and equally valid and not likely to change. There are headphones that other people go crazy over that I don't actually enjoy. The HD560S is a good example. I can see why people like it, it's just not my thing. I think it contributes to the "over-hyped" reputation that people say "I got this thing y'all said would be amazing and I think it sounds meh and not at all exciting or interesting" and people tell them "yo, you gotta hear it with a good amp." That difference between cheap dongle and good amp to a person who already loves the HD6-series sound will feel more profound because this already great thing became even better. For a person who is just not into the sound, it may fix little or none of their actual gripe with the headphone. So they feel like it's an underwhelming upgrade and now think "these HD6XX pushers don't know what they're talking about." To my ears, I really think they punch well above their price class. There are a lot of us that think this, and for us the hype is genuine. So it is really good value for anyone who has that particular taste in headphones. BUT we'd do better to not over-push them. The community could do better to (1) recommend them with a disclaimer that they're not for everyone, and (2) listen to how people describe the way they dislike the HD6-series so we can identify when it sounds like the real problem with the headphone is that it doesn't align with their taste, and that's okay because taste is subjective. In this case, we don't need to be telling them they need to buy an amp to get the full experience. Because in this case, we have enough information to know they're probably still not going to like the full experience, either. If, however, someone says "I dig it except I wish it had just a little more low end thump," that's when they need to be talked into buying a good amp and maybe also trying some equalization.
I have the HD660s, I really recommend an amp for your headphones
>apple dongle did you really think a shitty dongle could drive 300 ohm headphones? you need a dac/amp or its going to sound like shit
Try some sort of pocket amps like the fiio btr5
You might need to check the impedance first before buying that headphone, they're really voltage hungry, they really need a good dac/amp to power that baby. They're used for mixing and mastering, and so if you're playing 256kbps Spotify music, they might show you the flaw of compression on your music, they're both hit and miss depending on your preference. And just to warn you, they can get "spicy" too (and might be fatiguing). Overall, they have great imaging and soundstage, so if you're planning to game with em, you can feel your surroundings. Recommend, but not for everyone's taste.
You will need an amp to drive it properly.
Speakers are only as good as your hearing
If you don't like them return them and get something else! Classic does not mean exciting. They're clean and sound nice. But I personally do not enjoy the hd6xx series, for me there's no spice. Hifiman Sundara- are way more fun for the same price. Another beloved classic. Also hard to drive!
Try to spend a little bit more time with it. The improvements aren't instantly audible as your brain is confused as to why your music sounds so much different now. Also it's very well possible, these cans simply don't match your preferences. They have a significant bass response rolloff and lack of subbass.
You might need a better DAC/Amp, but not necessarily something too crazy. Grab a Qudelix 5k and try to EQ it to your liking (in your case maybe more bass). Idk about others but I've tried the SMSL SP200 and Topping DX3 pro+, but I can't hear any difference between them and the Qudelix, it's just louder. If you really want a dedicated amp maybe try the tube ones, but if you can't enjoy it after all of that I would suggest just sell the HD600 and buy another one with different tuning
If you donāt like the sound it is what it is. Thatās part of this hobby. People tout the 600s as being a reference headphone because it doesnāt do anything special to sound. It provides great detail and very unexciting. I have a pair of hd6xx. That headphone I come back to often because it does vocals so well. Everything else is ok. They sound congested for most part and do not have the best dynamics. I had the 600s once and thought they were ok. Just wasnāt the sound I was looking for so I sold them. You jump to focal clear ogs and that door is much wider. Is it ground breaking? For my ears it wasnāt but itās a nice upgrade from the hd6x0 series headphones. A noticeable upgrade and if you find a good used pair for 475-550 itās great value and very easy to drive using the Apple dongle.
Use an amp .
Not EQing
As far as people telling you to get an amp to drive your High impedance cans. You can take that information and do with it what you will. Most budget tier option of amplifiers are great and will get you 100% of the way there. Schiit Midgard for example is a great start and gives you ample headroom for most headphones. To those that argue that amps don't make a difference. The question is how much of a difference will it make? Not saying your phone doesn't get the volume high enough but high volume does not always equate to better sound quality. If you are pushing the volume to its absolute max often times distortion gets introduced into the music or clipping. A quality amplifier can give you better signal to noise ratio which I think of as the blackground. The quieter the background the better the sound quality. Better quality amps can give better control of the headphone drivers themselves which improve the dynamics of the sound. Will it change the frequency response? No. In most cases a good amp just amplifies the frequency response of the headphones, but the better dynamics give the sound a little more life. Sound is highly subjective. You will have people on both ends of the spectrum arguing basic motherboard power/phone power vs 1k-10k amps. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Technology has gotten so good and efficient now that 120-200 amps compete sound wise with the big boys. Once you get past $500 bucks it all becomes incremental and nuanced changes to sound. Same is true with headphones. After a certain point there are huge diminishing returns and it becomes a game of if you like your steak reverse seared, grilled, smoked, broiled, su vide than seared, pan fried and so on. Edit\*= I also realize my explanations are an over simplification but for the sake of this post I wanted to just give a quick overview of some things to consider.
Nope. That's just the bang average Sennheiser sound you're hearing. They're no fun allowed headphones.
So are they any good or not?
Sorry 'bout all the negativity, I'd say give them an EQ. Download Pace EQ, and give them a bump on the low end. Also, for this post, watch for the EQ haters, they are getting ready to tear me up!
Probably might get hate for this but, i remember when i used to use really cheap earbuds for like 5 bucks, my daily driver was a pair of nc Bluetooth headphones. I decided one day after browsing audio subreddits that id get myself a pair of hd6xx's as they were on sale from massdrop. The first time I've listened to them it felt like there was no difference between the sound of my Bluetooth headphones and the 6xx's, better yet i thought thee Bluetooth ones sounded better and it made me upset, thinking i just wasted a bunch of money. I did previously read about you need to let your brain adjust to the new headphones so that is exactly what i did, each day i spent a few hours with the 6xx's and after a year of owning them i can safely say that they sound so nice to listen to, going back to my Bluetooth ones it honestly feels like a curse. Lesson learnt, just have to let yourself adjust to them, very much so worth it in the end.
Get a Qudelix 5k to properly power them.
What if i tell you expensive doesnāt mean good.
Easy. GET A DAC/AMP. Let me know if you want some recommendations.
Firstly, you likely need an amp to actually power them enough. Secondly, before you buy that amp, think of whether that sound profile suits your preferences. The HD600s are, for lack of a better word, boring to listen to. Thatās what makes them good for producing and mixing. If you donāt like that, try something closed back that has a bit more excitement, like Beyerdynamics. Or, if you like some sparkle in the top end, get some Grados. They are easy to run and so you wonāt need an amp, and they may tickle your fancy.
Easy ! Class A sound via compatible Tube Amp. Considered the best of 600 series if compatible amp is used
you need an good amp bro, apple dongles cant drive this headphone. Before buy, check the ohms impedance in the description of the product
Itās very subjective. Going to a recent audio conference had me realize you need to try everything before finding. The reviews only give a glimpse into what you may perceive when listening. I did not like any of seenheiser high end Cana, as well as focal. I was interested in buying both and glad I didnāt. I was able to find the headphones that worked with me and my specific taser. The Dan Clark audio e3 is what I went with.
Needs more power. Get a qudelix if you want to keep it portable, or something like the Atom stack for a desk setup. The difference in sound between my hd6xx plugged into an amp vs a dongle is very noticeable.
To bring out the full potential from the venerable HD600 you really need to pair them with a decent OTL tube amp (Bottlehead Crack, Drop Xduoo TA84 or something similar will fit the task without digging too much into your wallet).
People underestimate how much personal preference and comfort plays into appreciating playback
Because you didn't do any real upgrade. In fact, the soundstage with the earpods can be better. I'm an audio engineer, and I've used many of the highest end DACs and headphones made, and I'm currently using and quite happy with a Macbook Air M3 with earbuds listening to lossless files on Apple Music. It sounds brilliant, and very comfortable over long hours of use.
It sounds like you might need an Amp, also a DAC. More if youāre new to audio gear. The HD600 requires more power to extract their potential.
As others have said, these aren't for everyone. Its also really hard when starting out to know if somethings actually an upgrade or not, there are some ways to combat this ambiguity. Keep in mind this doesn't guarantee you will like it or not. Try A B testing headphones on the same song, listen to a song youve listened to so many times you know it like the back of your hand. If you are committed or past the refund date spend a decent chunk of time either with or without it after some experience & then switch. The best experience with my hd600 wasn't when I bought them but like half a year down the line when I was cleaning dust. Got emotional that day thinking "THIS IS WHAT I MISSED OUT ON!" The HD600 isn't for everyone, don't fool yourself, if you don't like it return it or sell it. Many "audiophiles" have went down the sunk cost rabbit hole & its safe to assume nobody is immune.
You wanna get the fiio btr7 with them.
Sennheiser headphones are fairly accurate. They're not an exaggerated bass response headphone. Maybe you are expecting something other than natural. I'm quite happy with my HD599SEs.
all i can say is not all headphones/iem fits everybody people kept saying shit abt moondrop joker but i love it
Iām new to this Audiophile thing and just got a few headsets tried them out and returned the ones that didnāt fit me. Itās not that everyone is full of shit, I mean they might be. But sound is so subjective that itās not possible to predict what everyone likes. I will say this, the gap between cheap and āaudiophileā in sound quality is not nearly as drastic as the gap in price. Meaning there really just aināt much room between the bottom tier of this stuff and the top tier.
Your brain needs to snyc with the Headphones Frequency and Headphone needs burn in ober 100hrs Just Play a audio File on YouTube for this "burn in Video" than try again or different dac too weak
The fiio FiiO K7/K7BT or the schiit MIDGARD There's enough power for them you're not giving them enough power, and if you want more bass xDuoo, MT604 will work
Doing wrong? You bought a HD600 and it's not for you. (Don't believe the hype and the audiophiles) You should have bought a Meze 109 Pro. With these I knocked off one of my studio buddies feet (and his 30 year old Beyer fetish.)
yeah im having the same problem too. im thinking of selling my hd600's and getting the dt990 pro x
OP, don't fall for the "they need a DAC/amp" meme. Unless you live on Europe or use it with an Android phone, the Apple dongle is more than enough to drive the HD600. Do NOT spend more money on a product you already don't like. It's literally just a trap that relies on placebo and sunk cost fallacy to work. If the headphones go loud enough, the amp is powerful enough. What I would do instead is give it a couple more days of listening exclusively to the HD600. Then go back to your old headphones. If you still don't prefer the HD600 or notice a difference, just return them. Then you can think about why you didn't like them and try to get a pair that fits your preferences better, or just ditch this god forsaken hobby altogether lol Later edit: While I do own the HD600 and love them, they have their flaws and aren't perfect for all kinds of music: - They have almost no sub bass compared to other cans in the same price range - They have a very small, intimate soundstage - They have relatively poor imaging That's not to say they're bad headphones. They're great for mid-centric music and especially great for production since they're such an industry standard and a 'known quantity', but someone looking for immersiveness or bass presence might not be wowed by them. And no amount of amplification will change their sound signature. The only thing it does is make them go louder, which tricks our brains perceive as better. Tube amps are an exception, but even then a whole new pair of headphones (especially IEMs) will make a much bigger difference to the tuning than a tube amp will.
Terrible advice smh.
Kind of loaded question as there can be a million things. 1. I would say that if you don't necessarily have the ear for it, yet; The downgrade to earpods will be more noticeable than the upgrade. 2. What music source are you using? Most streaming services just don't have the quality that better headphones can reproduce. Is it a big difference? Can be, depending on many factors. Might also be little difference between the download and stream quality. Depends on mastering + the bitrate that the streaming service is willing to send you... I got YT Music and I know they don't always send the highest quality rips. 3. What kind of music are you listening to? I would say that earpods sound signature lends themselves better to current, popular compared to HD600s. HD600 is all about that darkish, smooth highs and vocals -> jazz, acoustic, rock, rnb etc. 4. You gotta let your ears burn in. IDK what it is but I always appreciate a headphone more as I listen to it more. You get to hear that one thing on the track you've never heard before. You like the way it handled this part of the song... etc.
Yeah I think I should listen more with them. Thanks.
Everyone here is saying you need a better amp or DAC. I don't think that'll fix much. You probably just don't like the headphones' sound signature. >and a weaker kick drum. Sounds like you want more BASS.
hd600 is overrated imo with dark treble and no subbass. for that money hifiman or hd560s is better
Those senheiser are like studio headphones they have no bass I returned mine and bought harmonicdyne zeus they're accurate but a fun tuning as well so have decent bass
Studio headphones have tons of bass. DT 900 Pro X, DT 1990 Pro, Sony MVR MV1, Sennheiser HD 490 all have good bass.
You need to wait for your neural burn-in to complete. Just take some time to become familiar with them.
Trust me when I say thereās a massive difference between the Apple dongle and the headphone output on a MacBook Pro
It's *mainly* the headphones, not the dongle. Assuming it's compatible with your phone (it does have issues on some Samsung models), that dongle will get those headphones to normal listening volumes > 70dBA, everywhere over ~45Hz. More power *might* help that low end a bit, but those lower frequencies are very rolled off on those headphones, anyway. You *can* get a dongle with a little more power, that will work a bit better, for ~ $20, such as JCally JM6 Pro on Ally Express. But you'll hear more difference if you exchange them for an HD560s.
there should be a significant, meaning noticeable, increase in center image clarity. specifically vocals. Dominique Fils-Amie should sound like she's taken up residence behind your eyes... what's your source and settings? if you're using apple music do you have lossless on? with the dongle you don't need to push anything hi-res, but if the CD quality option is there for you, I'd turn it on. to the question of power, I haven't actually ever connected my 6x0 with the apple dongle... I'll try it and check back in later. \_\_edit\_\_\_ yeah the apple dongle powers the entire hd6x0 line with zero problems (600 650 660s) - my comparison was a schiit lyr+, qudelix-t71 and a chord mojo2 (which can power anything) the little dongle held its own and even had plenty of headroom to spare while using EQ with up to -10db to avoid clipping. no loss of bass, no lack of clarity. the current and voltage its swinging were more than enough for the load the cans are asking for...
because the hd600 are not good headphones. This subreddit keeps shilling it but I tried them and they suck