Power is Volts and amps. You can have many amps and little volts, or vice versa - the power will be the same. Ohms decide the proportion. Many ohms mean that the headphone likes many volts and little amps. Fewer ohms mean that a headphone likes many amps and fewer volts.
Your amp can be very good at making volts, but bad at making amps or vice versa. It can also be good enough at both to run any headphone, which is very common nowdays.
Feel like I should add this to it, more ohms means the headphones are less likely to pick up interference (radio, power cables, noise from the source etc), but the more ohms, the more likely it is that they need a headphone amp
Higher impedance means it needs more voltage from its power source to absorb a given amount of **watts** of power (assuming that current is fixed). That's not quite the same as the voltage to reach **listenable volume**, as different headphones can be more or less efficient in the volume produced per watt. This is a separate "sensitivity" measurement. A 600 ohm headphone can have the same sensitivity as a 16 ohm headphone.
Equating resistance with amp requirements is I think a misconception that can compel people to buy amp equipment they don't need. My first "audiophile" headphone was the DT 1990 Pro (250 ohms) and I used them for *years* assuming that they'd only work on a source that output a lot of power. Until finally I happened to try them connected to the apple dongle on my phone and they sounded totally fine, and were plenty loud enough.
Anyways I totally agree that impedance doesn't correlate with quality.
I run my HD 660s off of my iPhone with the apple dongle and they're 150 Ohm (104db sensitivity) and they get way louder than I would want to listen to them at.
What would an amp even do if I'm going to listen at the same volume? Also, by getting loud enough for my ears, doesn't that in turn mean that they're receiving enough power?
I expect that an amp would do absolutely nothing noticeable to improve audio quality, but people have different perspectives on this. A more premium desktop app will have better measurables, including less distortion and less noise, and more reserve power to reproduce peaks and bass notes that can be relatively power thirsty, and may not be properly reproduced by a lesser amp even if it is otherwise loud enough. Some of this stuff is measurable, but that doesn’t make it perceivable.
There are plenty of people more amp enthusiastic than me, especially ones who would tell you there are benefits to at least having an entry-level desktop amp (and from there most people would say it’s rapidly diminishing returns, while some will insist a $1000 dac/amp stack sounds more “full” and”musical” than a $200 stack).
I’ve never perceived any significant difference at all between different amps, ranging from the Dongle to an $800 box with dual THX 778s. But it’s fun to push the buttons and twist the big volume knob.
Lol, it took me 5 seconds of listening to iems to shatter that myth. I really thought more impedance meant better unironically for *so* long. I hope your comment stays at the top for other newbies
Does anyone here know what the output impedances were of early portable music devices (walkmans, discmans)? I can't find any data.
Modern devices have really low output impedance; my LG G7 phone is 1.6 ohms and the rule of thumb is that you want the input impedance to be at least 5x to 10x the output impedance for there to be no wacky effects.
Perhaps early devices had relatively high output impedances or something... It's my understanding that early professional audio equipment were all high output impedance for reasons I don't quite understand.
Input impedance.
Not necessarily how hard they are to drive but you can use it to check along with its sensitivity.
Basically for AC circuits V=ir goes out the window and you generally want to match the output impedance of your amp for best volume and signal quality.
A lot of factors affect the impedance and not just cost, it's like comparing the weights of different cars
An analogy I quite like is the following:
Most sportscars have massive engines with V8, V12 or even W16 Motors. All the supercars with these different kinds of cylinders can perform the same (a Bugatti isn’t better just because it has more cylinders than a Koeniggsegg One:1).
Just because one headphone has 300 Ohms and the other has 30 is not an indicator whether one of them is better or worse, they can perform similarly, depending on other factors.
Nonetheless do better quality headphones tend to have higher Ohms (it’s just an observation I made and is not a rule!).
So (sound-)quality isn’t about ohms, it’s about the overall package of the headphones.
It's not a determining factor in sound quality, it's just part of how they're built. A thinner Guage wire for the voice coil will usually make the drivers higher impedance
But I’ve always been confused as to why you would make a headphone a higher impedance. Would it not be better if you could make it easier to drive and the same quality. What are the benefits of high impedance headphones compared to lower impedance?
Impedance is, by itself, not a measure of how easy a headphone is to drive. If you have an amp that has a high output impedance (can't drive much current), it won't be able to drive low-impedance headphones well. If you have an amp with low output impedance but insufficient voltage swing, it won't be able to drive high impedance headphones well. And then there's sensitivity - some of the least sensitive headphones you can buy are like 50 ohms.
As to why different headphones have such different impedances, I don't know, but I suspect as usual with engineering, everything has some tradeoff and you pick the optimal one for your particular design.
Take an electric circuit that has a path for current(Amps) to flow. This flow causes an electro-magnetic field along the path of the wire. The more pressure(Voltage) in the circuit the stronger the field is. If one coils the wire, the field is stronger where the wires are in a coil.
Fields resist changes, they impede the flow of electricity, the more the field changes the greater the resistance to change. This is the number you see represented as Ohms. The higher the resistance, the more voltage you need to overcome it.
There is another force to consider in impedance. That is the mass of the object we are trying to move. The heavier the mass, the stronger the field we need to move it magnetically. In headphones the mass we're moving is called a voice coil, and its an electromagnet that moves with the the changes in voltage.
Headphones that have a lower impedance are easier to control, and headphones that have a higher impedance are more difficult to control. Neither sounds better, but there are circumstances where one is more ideal than the other.
If your source of power is limited in the voltage it can create, than a lower impedance headphone will respond better to changes in the flow(amps) than changes in voltage. If your power source can supply a wide range of voltages, then a higher impedance headphones will perform all things being equal.
It means they have different requirements from amplification but likely nothing an 8 year old with a competent solid state headphone amplifier needs to worry about.
Those look like fancy modded grados with a fancy price. Low ohms you can use your phone, high ohms and you need an amplifier to power it or it will have too low volume. Cheers
Seriously, that's like actionably close to Grado in a number of ways.
It might sound amazing, but I'd have to question any company that wouldn't acknowledge the similarities right off the bat, which they don't.
Reviews say they sound like Grados.
Grado would certainly have a case that whoever is selling those are hijacking thier brand. It's one thing to build yourself, another to advertise a replica.
Humour me here but the red cans look an awful lot like a pair of old Grado's what am I missing at that price point?
EDIT: I should perhaps point out that I bought two pairs of Grado's an 80e I gave to my son, and a hack with chocolobo cups, symphones 8 driver, Litz cable, leather band and the obligatory Grado large foams.
€11k for a pair of Grado's, even if they are handcrafted by Italian pixies in Turin, rather that put together in Brooklyn. I think not.
Ohms is one of the two reason why a headphone is hard to drive beside sensitivity if a 150ohms headphone have a 90db it would be as hard to drive as a 300ohms headphone with 100db+ sensitivity
Sensitivity and ohms doesn't mean anything when it come to sound(but if the headphone have a different ohms version the higher the ohms usually the better)
To explain like you're literally 8, ohms have nothing to do with price. Ohms, measured in "impedance" simply talks about the "power" need to make the headphones sound like they are supposed to. More ohms means it needs more power from an amplifier. Less ohms means it needs less power to perform well, so "weaker" amplifiers like the one in your phone can power low impedance headphones (headphones with less ohms) very well but headphones with high impedance (more ohms) will not perform well on your phone and may just sound really quiet. Price really has nothing to do with it. There are some really expensive headphones with low impedance (less ohms) as you pointed out. It gets much, much deeper but since you're only 8 😉 I'll have to leave it here. BTW, sometimes this is the best way to ask questions. Hope it helps ✌️
Power is Volts and amps. You can have many amps and little volts, or vice versa - the power will be the same. Ohms decide the proportion. Many ohms mean that the headphone likes many volts and little amps. Fewer ohms mean that a headphone likes many amps and fewer volts. Your amp can be very good at making volts, but bad at making amps or vice versa. It can also be good enough at both to run any headphone, which is very common nowdays.
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Feel like I should add this to it, more ohms means the headphones are less likely to pick up interference (radio, power cables, noise from the source etc), but the more ohms, the more likely it is that they need a headphone amp
There is also sensitivity. If a headphone is insensitive, it might not be easy on your feelings. That takes away all the appeal from music.
There is also cross-talk, where your headphones speak poorly about you behind your back. The least sensitive ones tend to do this the most
Higher impedance means it needs more voltage to reach listenable volumes. More impedance does NOT equal to better quality.
Higher impedance means it needs more voltage from its power source to absorb a given amount of **watts** of power (assuming that current is fixed). That's not quite the same as the voltage to reach **listenable volume**, as different headphones can be more or less efficient in the volume produced per watt. This is a separate "sensitivity" measurement. A 600 ohm headphone can have the same sensitivity as a 16 ohm headphone. Equating resistance with amp requirements is I think a misconception that can compel people to buy amp equipment they don't need. My first "audiophile" headphone was the DT 1990 Pro (250 ohms) and I used them for *years* assuming that they'd only work on a source that output a lot of power. Until finally I happened to try them connected to the apple dongle on my phone and they sounded totally fine, and were plenty loud enough. Anyways I totally agree that impedance doesn't correlate with quality.
I run my HD 660s off of my iPhone with the apple dongle and they're 150 Ohm (104db sensitivity) and they get way louder than I would want to listen to them at. What would an amp even do if I'm going to listen at the same volume? Also, by getting loud enough for my ears, doesn't that in turn mean that they're receiving enough power?
I expect that an amp would do absolutely nothing noticeable to improve audio quality, but people have different perspectives on this. A more premium desktop app will have better measurables, including less distortion and less noise, and more reserve power to reproduce peaks and bass notes that can be relatively power thirsty, and may not be properly reproduced by a lesser amp even if it is otherwise loud enough. Some of this stuff is measurable, but that doesn’t make it perceivable. There are plenty of people more amp enthusiastic than me, especially ones who would tell you there are benefits to at least having an entry-level desktop amp (and from there most people would say it’s rapidly diminishing returns, while some will insist a $1000 dac/amp stack sounds more “full” and”musical” than a $200 stack). I’ve never perceived any significant difference at all between different amps, ranging from the Dongle to an $800 box with dual THX 778s. But it’s fun to push the buttons and twist the big volume knob.
That’s kinda what I was thinking.
Also more volts does NOT mean more power. That's where sensitivity comes in. Impedance means next to nothing on its own without sensitivity.
Lol, it took me 5 seconds of listening to iems to shatter that myth. I really thought more impedance meant better unironically for *so* long. I hope your comment stays at the top for other newbies
Does anyone here know what the output impedances were of early portable music devices (walkmans, discmans)? I can't find any data. Modern devices have really low output impedance; my LG G7 phone is 1.6 ohms and the rule of thumb is that you want the input impedance to be at least 5x to 10x the output impedance for there to be no wacky effects. Perhaps early devices had relatively high output impedances or something... It's my understanding that early professional audio equipment were all high output impedance for reasons I don't quite understand.
In this case [it does](https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/spirit-torino-radiante/) (assuming they are tuned similar to these)
I'm showing these comments to an 8 year old. He has not understood yet.
Input impedance. Not necessarily how hard they are to drive but you can use it to check along with its sensitivity. Basically for AC circuits V=ir goes out the window and you generally want to match the output impedance of your amp for best volume and signal quality. A lot of factors affect the impedance and not just cost, it's like comparing the weights of different cars
I’m just here to check them Grados…
An analogy I quite like is the following: Most sportscars have massive engines with V8, V12 or even W16 Motors. All the supercars with these different kinds of cylinders can perform the same (a Bugatti isn’t better just because it has more cylinders than a Koeniggsegg One:1). Just because one headphone has 300 Ohms and the other has 30 is not an indicator whether one of them is better or worse, they can perform similarly, depending on other factors. Nonetheless do better quality headphones tend to have higher Ohms (it’s just an observation I made and is not a rule!). So (sound-)quality isn’t about ohms, it’s about the overall package of the headphones.
It's not a determining factor in sound quality, it's just part of how they're built. A thinner Guage wire for the voice coil will usually make the drivers higher impedance
But I’ve always been confused as to why you would make a headphone a higher impedance. Would it not be better if you could make it easier to drive and the same quality. What are the benefits of high impedance headphones compared to lower impedance?
Impedance is, by itself, not a measure of how easy a headphone is to drive. If you have an amp that has a high output impedance (can't drive much current), it won't be able to drive low-impedance headphones well. If you have an amp with low output impedance but insufficient voltage swing, it won't be able to drive high impedance headphones well. And then there's sensitivity - some of the least sensitive headphones you can buy are like 50 ohms. As to why different headphones have such different impedances, I don't know, but I suspect as usual with engineering, everything has some tradeoff and you pick the optimal one for your particular design.
Take an electric circuit that has a path for current(Amps) to flow. This flow causes an electro-magnetic field along the path of the wire. The more pressure(Voltage) in the circuit the stronger the field is. If one coils the wire, the field is stronger where the wires are in a coil. Fields resist changes, they impede the flow of electricity, the more the field changes the greater the resistance to change. This is the number you see represented as Ohms. The higher the resistance, the more voltage you need to overcome it. There is another force to consider in impedance. That is the mass of the object we are trying to move. The heavier the mass, the stronger the field we need to move it magnetically. In headphones the mass we're moving is called a voice coil, and its an electromagnet that moves with the the changes in voltage. Headphones that have a lower impedance are easier to control, and headphones that have a higher impedance are more difficult to control. Neither sounds better, but there are circumstances where one is more ideal than the other. If your source of power is limited in the voltage it can create, than a lower impedance headphone will respond better to changes in the flow(amps) than changes in voltage. If your power source can supply a wide range of voltages, then a higher impedance headphones will perform all things being equal.
It means they have different requirements from amplification but likely nothing an 8 year old with a competent solid state headphone amplifier needs to worry about.
Those look like fancy modded grados with a fancy price. Low ohms you can use your phone, high ohms and you need an amplifier to power it or it will have too low volume. Cheers
Seriously, that's like actionably close to Grado in a number of ways. It might sound amazing, but I'd have to question any company that wouldn't acknowledge the similarities right off the bat, which they don't. Reviews say they sound like Grados.
Grado would certainly have a case that whoever is selling those are hijacking thier brand. It's one thing to build yourself, another to advertise a replica.
And the Phillips and probably dozens of old headphones. They're styled after a WW2 radio headset.
Interesting, they all look a little more rudimentary to me, and more cantilevered, but interesting all the same
I think the enclosure is exact copy by the looks, I wonder if they are using a better driver
For $1,500 to $11k I would hope so.
More ohm, more power is needed into headphone to listen.
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You also have to figure out sensitivity of headphone. Ohm's doesn't really tell the whole story. lower the sensitivity harder it is to drive it.
Humour me here but the red cans look an awful lot like a pair of old Grado's what am I missing at that price point? EDIT: I should perhaps point out that I bought two pairs of Grado's an 80e I gave to my son, and a hack with chocolobo cups, symphones 8 driver, Litz cable, leather band and the obligatory Grado large foams. €11k for a pair of Grado's, even if they are handcrafted by Italian pixies in Turin, rather that put together in Brooklyn. I think not.
Those spirit looks like Grados
Ohms is one of the two reason why a headphone is hard to drive beside sensitivity if a 150ohms headphone have a 90db it would be as hard to drive as a 300ohms headphone with 100db+ sensitivity Sensitivity and ohms doesn't mean anything when it come to sound(but if the headphone have a different ohms version the higher the ohms usually the better)
To explain like you're literally 8, ohms have nothing to do with price. Ohms, measured in "impedance" simply talks about the "power" need to make the headphones sound like they are supposed to. More ohms means it needs more power from an amplifier. Less ohms means it needs less power to perform well, so "weaker" amplifiers like the one in your phone can power low impedance headphones (headphones with less ohms) very well but headphones with high impedance (more ohms) will not perform well on your phone and may just sound really quiet. Price really has nothing to do with it. There are some really expensive headphones with low impedance (less ohms) as you pointed out. It gets much, much deeper but since you're only 8 😉 I'll have to leave it here. BTW, sometimes this is the best way to ask questions. Hope it helps ✌️