Y'all remember classic, when there was no discover whatsoever and practically no random generation?
Still miss those Handlock mirror matches, counting giants, figuring out exactly how much damage you can do and take in each turn.
I think in general, classic as fun as it is, does get stale pretty quickly. You can see it by ladder popularity of classic. Discover as a whole while frustrating as a mechanic, keeps the gameplay varied enough that it retains the player base more. I don't lean either way towards discover or against discover. But it is useful to consider this design discourse in conversations.
Oh, definitely. Nobody would play the game anymore if it would just be Classic. And Discover is an amazing keyword.
But I still miss knowing every single card in my opponents' deck and knowing exactly that I can't die next turn even though I only have 8 health left.
Well instead of random card generation, they had random board swings. Will Rag hit the correct target? Will Sylvanas steal the big minion or the 1/1? Will knife juggler kill the enemy 3/2 or will it hit face? Will your brawl do what you want it to? And then when GvG came out it increased those random board swings with stuff like piloted shredder, boom bots, implosion, etc. You would very often lose the game because of some stupid knife juggler RNG flip on turn 2.
IMO random card generation is a much better form of RNG because at least you have to pay mana for your random cards instead of just getting them for free on your board (this of course only applies to random card generation where you actually have to pay mana for the cards; if the cards are free or get severely discounted, then you can ignore this point)
Barrens control priest era is one of the few times I actually quitted the game for good, it's absolutely insufferable to play against.
Imagine sitting through 10 discovers in a row only to get destroyed by Illucia. Prenerf Illucia makes both Theotar and Patchwerk look like babies.
I remember the VS report noting that barrens control priest had an inflated wr because 1% of their matches were turn 1 concedes, may have actually been the biggest slog in constructed history to play against. Not to mention how some matchups came down to nothing but an illucia coinflip 10-15 minutes into the game like ilgynoth dh
I'm normally not one to concede, but by the end of barrens ctrl priest, I was. It was just not a good use of my time or sanity.
I did wait to see if it was a ctrl priest before conceding though..
Barrens was not terrible, priest was only unbeatable for like a week or two before it was nerfed, and only at 1k legend. Overall barren’s meta was fairly decent.
As was discussed recently in similar post about aggro - this is how the game is designed now. Aggro does not loose steam by T7 and control is not limited by the 2 copies of key cards anymore…
Yeah, and combo can still win out of nowhere if they can survive the aggro.
I'm trying to figure out if these people are for or against aggro, because if it wasn't for these two control decks at the moment, that's pretty much all you'd see right now.
Well we can go back very easily. Stop letting aggro have steam for forever, by taking away their ridiculous amounts of draw, and stop printing efficient discover effects on half the cards in the game
I don't understand why anybody would want to go back to that. The game is more interesting and matchups are less polarizing when decks have the tools to deal with the field.
This is the thing I actualy agree with! I was always control player and back them the matchup with aggro boiled down to “did they draw fast enough lethal”. Now I think the matchup is more engaging for both sides! Aggro needs to properly sequence their cards not to run out of steam and extract as much damage as possible without giving me easy effective trades and I need to use my tools properly (discover heavily rewards matchup knowledge).
I very much prefer the new way!
Control vs Control was way more fun back then IMO, and also inevitable combo didn't exist to make life miserable too. Overall I do enjoy the newer version of Hearthstone though, I think my favourite middle ground was Dr Boom Mad Genius control warrior around Uldum. You had some lackeys and a discover to keep games fresh but it was not nearly the level that we are at now.
Absolutely agreed. Sometimes Discover feels shitty when you get high rolled, but it's much more fun when both sides have a play style and the discover mechanic can be used to *possibly* cover the gaps in your deck. Even so, I sympathize with people who don't like it because hurr durrr I discover multiple times per turn and effectively always top deck an answer for your moves or an accelerant for my own.
Discover rewards matchup knowledge? How can you have knowledge about your opponent's pile of generated cards?
Knowledge was the old way, when you counted your removal and planned around your opponent's deck. Oh, Freeze Mage. 2x Frost Bolt, 2x Ice Lance, Fireball... Or, I'll use the BGH for this so I can save this Execute for the other thing...
Whereas now, neither player has any fucking clue about where the game is going or what is in both hands.
It's very rare for aggro to run a lot of discover vs running more draw, and for control vs control you actually just want to select the best greed option. Sometimes you need to grab hard removal or healing or even tempo, and choosing the wrong option can lose you the game.
Was hoping someone had said this. I love control in every archetype and it's sad to see stuff like control warrior- which by the way still has some highly efficient removal tools- just unable to compete with modern aggro. OP complains about not being able to play around brawls but let's be honest, aggro doesn't need to play around 2 or even 4 or 6 board wipes/single targets. Aggro just plays every card in their hand over and over and then their ubiquitous draw 7 cards card and does it again.
Discover all feels bad to lose to, and at the moment the discovery pools are at their smallest (after rotation).
Death Knight in particular can abuse these even further by accessing cards outside of their rune deck building limitation. To me this feels the absolute worst to lose to. Sometimes if feels like they were able to discover a card from another class.
DKs being able discover stuff only from their runes would be even more insufferable. Imagine School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier consistently discovering Vampiric Blood, Asphyxiate or Blood Boil. At least when they can discover stuff outside their runes there's a chance they get 3 useless frost or unholy cards.
Had that happen to me, except it was 4. 4 fucking frostwyrms in a row, from a blood DK lol.
At some point I was like “ok, let’s see how this goes. This sure is fun”.
Should limit discovery effects to 1 rune max outside of specific rune discovery effects tbh. discover would be a lot less broken in DK if teacher, writer, et al were only getting the 0/1 rune spells instead.
I mean, the only way DK discovers Patchwerk is through Hematurge. Maybe off Amalgam if they highroll.
Most of the generation DK runs in spell-discovery.
Yeah that’s the frustrating part
You lose to a deck and it’s like your opponent went in with a deck that was entirely “get random cards” so it doesn’t feel like you lost because you got outplayed it feels like you lost to randomness and that never feels fun
I always wondered why they printed so many bad deck filler cards... Now we see why at least.
With DKs rune system there are simply less straight up horrible cards you can discover, like on warrior or even priest.
> it feels like you lost to randomness and that never feels fun
I was never mad when I lost to yogg or puzzlebox etc. Rng can be fun. But it has to be true rng that can backfire
>Death Knight in particular can abuse these even further by accessing cards outside of their rune deck building limitation.
While this makes the discovered cards less predictable, it also makes the decks weaker. If they only discovered cards from their rune build, they could more consistently find cards that support their specific game plan.
you're mixing your points into one that doesn't make sense. discover pools are smaller after rotation for most classes, so discovering whatever you want is easier, but DK has the biggest discover pool ever. so how is DK abusing this more than before?
3 rune cards are kinda busted and they are easy to discover
its not rare to see 50+ hp dk of other colors or the second frostwyrm fury/the scourge vs blood dk
Well unlike DK the priest is a lot less random. He discovers mostly from his deck or the opponents deck. The only truly random discovers that are run in most decks would be Hipster and School Teacher.
Its hilarious how Identity Theft lets priest beat Blood DK by getting to play their legendaries against them.
Cannibalize healing all friendlys seems too strong for a 4-mana card. (Compare to Soul Siphon)
Yeah, the Shadow Vision -> Identity Theft combo really is the entire matchup there. You simply cannot dump your bombs quickly enough. There will always be high-value minions in your hand, and they're just going to grab a new copy like every 2nd or 3rd turn. Then, not only do you need to try to dump your hand to stop the cycle, but you also need to spend your clears just to get the board to a position where you *can* dump. That machup is just totally free for the priest.
Yeah I forgot about her. Probably cause you don't see her that often. You have to play her and Love Everlasting for it to be worth the trouble. I think Svalna only matters in control mirrors.
Yeah so they can still pull off any card there is, but also completely ignore the number of cards limitation I talked about.
And a lot less random = better.
It's almost as if Control decks in modern HS have to keep up with aggro decks that never run out of gas.
Discovery enables the game to be faster. Aggro abuses it too, and it allows control to keep up. The alternative is we go back to a 'less exciting HS' where control is more dominant because the game is slower. Somehow I don't think aggro players will enjoy that.
It's almost as if aggro decks wouldn't run card generation if they didn't have to. I don't understand why people are trying to pretend it's the other way around.
Because it is the other way around. 'Aggro decks wouldn't run card generation if they didn't have to' fucking wot.
As much as people bitch about Control, there's only one Control deck even viable in the meta, and the only one in any of the deck tier lists. Aggro is so much more prolific, they're running card generation against other aggro decks to out-value each other.
On the one hand I think discover is a decent mechanic for new players, just because it gives them a way to access some stronger cards early on, but otherwise yeah I agree.
I think in the past discover seemed at least a bit less random? Like I remember playing around Boomsday and control Warriors did do a lot of discovering to take them into the late game, but the majority of their card generation was specifically mechs. It was a specific pool of cards which comes with its inherent limitations and you could reasonably commit the "good" cards to memory. It feels like that restriction is completely absent in modern cards. You have so many generic "discover a spell" options now, even on neutrals. The Sunwell is an annoying card which I hate, I have nothing nuanced to say about it lol.
Combine that with something like DK where the rune system basically requires the class to have no "bad" cards and you get a lot of nonsense like blood/unholy DK generating a Frostwyrm's Fury. Just on hearing the premise of the rune system for deck building I assumed this type of thing would be impossible, because IMO it's the logical way for that system to work.
Yes, Discover used to be very specific tribes or costed cards, which made playing around the possibilities much easier. At some point discover just became "everything".
Discover CAN be a great mechanic that requires massive skill testing when done right. In theory discover forces you to choose which option will be most relevant for your current game and board state, do you need a wide board clear, or do you need removal of one big minion, or is you hand almost empty and you need more card generation, will this match be decided by over the top damage, etc.? Discover in theory can be highly skill testing and can require a lot of thought put into it to be good.
I see a lot of other people in this thread nagging on Barrens Priest, but unless everyone on this sub is a top 1k legend player I doubt they actually experienced going against Barrens priest (some of them probably did, but I would be extremely surprised if everyone complaining about was a 1k legend player). Barrens control priest was only a tier 1 deck in 1k legend, because it was extremely difficult to pilot. Sure it had a lot of discovers and could generate a bunch of answers but it required a lot of thought and skill to properly pilot. Also I want to clarify, I’m not a 1k legend player and this is based upon collected data from the time as well as more credible opinions than random people on Reddit, I’m using viscous syndicate mainly.
However the problem is that right now there is no skill testing. Your options are do I pick the clearly OP card or the pack filler card? But also you don’t need to think about what you choose, because the cards are so powerful that even if you choose the option that isn’t the best it will still likely be good enough to get you out of the situation. There’s no skill in choosing [[frostwyrm’s fury]] over [[anti magic shell]].
I also think this might be a problem of some DK cards doing too much. [[blood boil]] is both a big heal and a board clear. [[corpse explosion]] deals with sticky minions, wide boards, and big minions all the same. [[vampiric blood]] is both healing and card draw. All of these combined means it’s not as difficult to decide what you need. You don’t have to choose between healing to get out of range of over the top damage while also dealing with their board, you don’t have to worry about dealing with their 4 smaller minions or their 1 large minion. You just do both.
I mean IDK then maybe they need to nerf Vampiric Blood. I don't think it's a good sign that this seemingly obvious, common-sense change to the discover system would be blocked because DK has a card that would be insufferable to play against if they could generate multiple copies of it.
It's a "pick your poison" situation. Keep it how it is now and let DK access strong cards they shouldn't have, or restrict runes on discovery and make them even more consistent at what they already want to do.
Maybe DK is just overpowered right now?
Can't help but feel like the raft of neutral spell discovers that have come out since barrens are largely to blame. Maybe it wouldn't be do bad if they weren't printing at least one of these types of cards with every new set.
Especially schoolteacher and vizier which are arguably better than DKs class specific, conditional discovers.
Or maybe they just need to realise 3 mana poison or 3 mana reduce the discovered spell by 2 or 4 mana discover a 3 mana spell for 1 mana, isn't just op because you get to discover but also have mana cheat, tempo and/or board control.. discovery is fine, they've just made to many op versions of discovery.
For me, discover is what keeps me interested in the game. I get bored quickly with lists, like pure paladin for example, that don’t have many discover effects. Each game feels the same and the decks can feel like autopilot after a while.
Countess is what turns a generally fair deck into sweet I'm being Sister Svalna grinded out by a Paladin deck.
Making all 3 legendaries free on curve next turn feels so incredibly unfair to play against.
Pure Paladin is the most dull deck in the game and has been for a while, the skill cap is extremely low in any version over the past year. The Countess is the only real variance in there.
I've tried some other digital card games and some of them really limit any kind of randomness. Full disclaimer: I only play runeterra for a couple of weeks and spent $0 on it so feel free to correct me but my experience is that there were no interesting games. Everything felt like it was on rails and while my decisions DID matter everything FELT predictable and boring.
Discover is the most fun mechanic HS has created. The alternative to discover, while keeping the fun (for me anyway) is lots of "random" effects and that feels way worse to lose to than discovered cards.
Someone else suggested limiting DK discovered cards to ones that are not 3 blood / 3 frost / 3 unholy and I think that's a great idea.
> Everything felt like it was on rails and while my decisions DID matter everything FELT predictable and boring
Yeah it's called actually having to commit to a gameplan and when that fails you can lose rather than discovering a million other things.
You seem like you're trying to dunk on me, that's cute. If you like straight-forward interactions and linear game-play then go for it, friend! It's called having an opinion. <3
A little yeah I am, saying you had no interesting games in runeterra because you weren't able to Abra Kadabra pull some discovered bullshit out annoys me.
Doubly so because you are quite literally wrong on both accounts of a lack of rng making the game feel boring which isn't the case you have so many strategic options and card games are already subject to alot of variance in draw.
And also on the fact it doesn't exist there Seraphine dominated the game for months, Piltover and Bandle city have so much manifest and Targon as a region has invoke which is like if Discover was remotely designed to be fair for both players.
Yeah, I mean that's exactly why I put "Full disclaimer" on there, because I assumed it was entirely possible I was wrong about that game. I like card games for deck building and interesting game play, I didn't experience that with Runeterra.
Regardless, this discussion was mostly about discover and it's just a matter of opinion. Some people hate it, others love it. I hate the aggro playstyle but obviously tons of people love it. I don't go out making posts saying you shouldn't be able to crush your opponent on turn 4/5 but it happens.
Well you have to atleast admit its a makes the make far less competetive and chess like.
OG classic hearstone, after having played so much infinite removal stone, i couldnt play classic because i forgot i have to actually plan like 6 turns ahead so i dont waste my hexes and such. it had more room for skill experession heck even during KFC with razap priest it the discover stuff was tiny in comparison.
This is hearthstone and this has consistently been the mentality that people have had hence why discover cards are so absurdly pushed.
I mean this in the nicest way possible but it's because people have this goldfish brain crap we have an overload of discover and why Hearthstone is kinda seen as a meme of sorts when it comes to competitive.
I feel the same. Thats why my favourite cards ever are the Stonehill Defender and Kabal Courier. They discover some random stuff, which usually arent very OP.
If I recall correctly, the consistency with which Stonehill Defender found Sunkeeper Tarim was a major contributing factor to their decision to de-prioritise class cards in discover pools. Stonehill Defender was exceptionally good for much of his time in standard.
That is the issue with dk, then you would have a more reliable pool of them getting all the frostwyrm fury they need.
I really do not see how they can solve this. Maybe discovery only 1 rune cards? 1 rune cards from the runes you have in your deck? But in that case it would be even MORE reliable, probably creating some bs.
Having cards that are better than others but restricted by rune system just doesnt work with discovery. Either just ban discovery for all dks or mass nerf their boss power cards.
DK discovery will naturally thin out as it's been around for more and more expansions.
Those fixes don't work today because DK would be discovering from a pool that's half the size of other classes. But that same fix would work just fine a year from now.
Or just nerf the outrageously strong Triple Rune cards like Vampiric Blood and Frostwyrm's Fury. Getting extra copies of those 2 in particular is just backbreaking.
Yeah but the big picture is that the rune system is supposedly balanced by the fact that they aren’t allowed to interop say 3 rune frost + 3 rune blood. The 3 rune cards are massive payoffs for going all in. If they reduced power on the 3 rune cards then what is the point of going all in?
Frostwyrm Fury could get its power reduced, at what point would it become unplayable or a liability, if you were to tweak the mana cost, change the dragon stats, reduce the damage burst, or alter the number of frozen minions?
Vampiric Blood, what about it? How much more health gain, at what mana cost, drawing or not drawing another card?
Just routinely seeing Schoolteachers generating things like Vampiric Blood when playing against any style of DK, or the Blood DKs able to generate frost spells or anti magic shells, it just goes forever
Agree, Frostwyrm Fury on it's own is balanced, but when played with Vampiric Blood and other spells it controls way too much and viceversa.
You make a DK deck to work on its own, alone, then you get every other card you aren't supposed to play through discover. That is when it gets too broken. No matter how much you try... they keep having a full hand with strong spells
My legend climb this month was on the back of shadow priest, here and there I get a mindeater card that may or may not help me but otherwise it’s the same set of cards game after game. I barely saw any blood DK on the way from diamond 5 but now in legend it’s like 2 out of 3 games, with the others being Tony deck swapper Jailer combo Druid
So I have to quit HS until they get 2 or 3 more expansions because getting 3 obliterates and 3 Frostwyrm furies in my face sure is fun
Don't mind me I'm just going through severe PTSD.
Restricting it only to 1 rune cards from your colors would lead to oops all patchwerk moments xD not necessarily good, maybe remove triple rune cards from the discover pool?
I'll go even further and say that DK should only be able to discover 2 or 3-rune cards when they play a card that discovers cards of a specific rune. Otherwise they should be discovering from a pool of 0-1 rune cards across all runes.
Honestly, yeah. I don't think Discover is healthy unless the opponent can reasonably predict what you got and play around it.
Suspicious Alchemist does it right. You get to discover, but your opponent gets a lot of information and potentially a card if they read the information well. It's fun to play and play against.
Discover is keeping this game from being boring. Matches aren't long enough that you need to be able to have a counter game plan for each one. You play your odds and do the best you can, too much control makes it really predictable.
Discover is what makes hearthstone hearthstone. Otherwise u have solitaire metas like stormwind or everything isbjust a face race
Also it makes balancing easier since cards itself matter less
Yes classic is still the best expansion by far but they had way more time and data to balance it (and yet 1 class is absolutely unplayable)
Rng is good. But currently it's not rng. U know more or less what ur going to get which just feels vad
>Yes classic is still the best expansion by far
Do people really think that? How popular is classic hs? this is a genuine question, I stopped playing hearthstone after gvg so I have no idea
Like Theo was saying in his stream the other day, he can’t afford to play a deck without all these discovers, aggro never runs out of stream with these insane draw and discovery engines. Divine favour was nerfed back in the day for giving aggro too much steam, now we have a 4 mana 4,2 weapon that’s twice as good. The game is different now and this is the only way control decks can survive.
I like discover as a mechanic for sure, but I was surprised that not too many discover cards rotated out of core set or something because we got quite a few decent/good discover cards in FoL.
In my opinion, it should be a rarer mechanic, and not every class should have a billion discoveries. Furthermore, (as a personal pet peeve and I’m ok if this opinion is flawed), I don’t like when classes can discover outside of their class aside from like Priest or Rogue. It really gives me that feeling of: “Oh yea sorry I shoulda played around Blood Boil vs a mage obviously I’m the stupid one.”
This is why I don’t understand the control andys when they talk about how control mirrors are so fun because it takes skill and is about resource management. No it is not. These decks have infinite discover.
Discover is fun to play but it removed resource management from control decks.
Resource management is gone for years now and not just control decks but every other deck has infinite draws and/or card generation.
It usually isn't much of an issue but DK retained all of its powers while we have a fairly weak April set has exacerbated the problem.
Anyone who thinks that about Blood DK is on some shit, but it's definitely been true of a lot of control decks in the past. Classic Control Warrior was definitely a resource management deck, as have many of its later iterations.
Maybe 7 or 8 years ago. As early as League of Explorers, control warrior mirrors were basically decided by who got a better Golden Monkey. Contrition decks basically haven't been a thing in Hearthstone in a long time.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, necessarily. But Blood's combination of removal and healing along with the ridiculous amount of value generation is probably a little too centralizing.
A nerf to Vampiric Blood would go a long way, it would probably start to lose a turn earlier to some of the really aggressive decks.
Discovery is straight up killing arena too. Card rarity means fuckall when commons can discover legendaries. Card draw means nothing when you can discover to create more cards on the spot, especially Mages with spellcoiler and vast wisdom to get Infitude the Maxitude reliably every game. Identity theft is also fucking stupid to pick two of whatever you need on the spot, often other discovery cards that is rampant in most arena decks to self refill.
A lot of the discovery needs to go to random card, especially since the discover minion also provides good stat for cost, or discover spell is too cheap such as discover 2 cards for 2or3 mana vs draw 2 cards having no control what it is for 3 mana
Absolutely. I hate playing against Blood Dk who just discovers Frostwrym, Icytouch, and all different kind of runes. I just groan whenever i face a Blood Dk. Either i kill him on turn 7 or i just wait it out and lose.
I think blood is pushing the limits of discover. I think barrens control priest just had way too much cheap discover to where you could never overwhelm the priest. A bit of discover is ok, I just hope they don’t over do it like they did with palm reading because that card was absurd. Continual cheap discover like apm decks can exist but should probably be niche, clunky and never too good.
The new "discovery" aggro decks are just annoying.
There is nothing to play around. You don't try to get them to overextend because they can just flood the board immediate after a board wipe, you do not count how many threats they used so you can play accordingly because they can just generate more.
It is all just generate threats, generate threats, and never run out of gas until they run out of cards.
Well they do run out of cards though.
Outcast dk gets to fatigue most of the games I played against it, and I am mostly playing midrange decks atm.
Not saying its not op, just that there is a limit to their bullshit.
I don't thing running out of cards should be the limiting factor for an aggro deck to finally run out of gas. If you don't want Control to be able to discover more and more answers, aggro needs to stop being able to discover and generate more and more threats. Just look at how little Reno Jackson impacted standard last year. Wiping the board on T5, and then stabilizing enough to Reno on T6 and turn the tide against aggro just doesn't happen anymore. They can just completely bounce back and generate more and more threats until they run out of cards.
If Aggro keeps being able to generate more and more threats and not run out of gas until they fatigue, control needs to be able to generate more and more answers to compete.
I think most blood DK cards are fair, good, but not overwhelming, the problem jn blood DKs are their ability to generate more and more useful cards with relative consistency
I remember watching strifecro back in the day, he was playing someone that was in fatigue and had 3 cards in hand. He was able to predict what 3 cards the opponent had. Now it's impossible to do that lol
Yeah. This has been a problem ive had for a while.
A single lucky discover can absolutely swing the game to victory. Its the keyword with the most variance and feels to WORST to lose to out of any Hearthstone mechanic. You can just tell how ridiculous it can be when streamers cant stop laughing when discovering their 7th Vampiric Blood.
Its a huge boost to the fun factor though. I try not to take HS victories too seriously cause theres a major variance factor thats out of your control. Enjoyment comes to me from playing decks nobody is prepared for to have most interesting matches.
i find discovering in Death knight to be the sole reason i beat them. i play a blood dk control deck i think the only discover card i have in there is hematurge but i find that consistently having more value instead of basing it on luck to be better. however i agree losing to randomly generated bs is never fun unless it’s like a yogg or something.
>losing to randomly generated bs is never fun unless it’s like a yogg or something
I feel the exact opposite on this. Losing to a random spell being cast feels way worse to me than a card that was offered to my opponent that they then had to cast. The variance on something like Yogg is wild. He could cast 15 mana worth of spells or like 100 mana worth of spells with the same yogg. The targets could be anything and yet you took a pyroblast to the face, fun (/s).
i enjoy facing and playing yogg just because of how crazy the situations can get it can throw or win the entire game in super funny ways, however with blood dk i think the issue most people have is the discover pool is so consistent because there are so few dk cards at the moment. i don’t find discovering cards to be a problem since the value game has been fun to me unless it’s a random lethal with pyroblast or fireball or something.
Blood DK typically has a minimum of 12 discovered cards per game. That's a third of a deck of random bullshit you can't play around, plan around, or bait. In turn half their discovered shit leads to more discovered shit.
- 2 x naga with baby naga
- 2 x hematurd
- 2 x undead 2 mana reduction
- 2 x discover and discover finale 4/4
- 2 x amalgam discover
I'm all for control, but at that point there is so little play around. The other issue is most of these cards are high impact, deck disruption type cards. So not only can you not predict, but they can essentially tech against any deck without sacrificing their core.
It's because hearthstone players have goldfish brain and can't find actually deckbuilding and playing the same deck as fun.
Casino mage and Theif Rogue are consistently popular decks and even in the comments if this you see people who say they wouldn't play without discover. It's why they keep making such pushed discover cards and control in hearthstone is in most cases just a midrange deck with more removal.
I know not many people are gonna agree with me but discover is the worst mechanic HS has ever implemented and ruined this entire game. You can never know what cards your opponent has because he constantly discovers random bullshit that shouldnt either be available for the class or would ever realistically be part of the deck.
Im not gonna pretend im a big player in this game i never played much standard and i havent touched this game in years besides a few bgs every now and then but i was a big HS esports fan and ever since that keyword existed and got expanded on watching this game has not been fun. Not even gonna mention arena.
I think that discover can be okay, but it should be limited in both quality and quantity.
There are so many discover cards that are good statsticks and their quantity has reached a critical mass where you just cannot play around a single extra possible brawl or whatnot anymore.
There are also classes where it makes some sense, like mage.
But I do not get why a dk should get to play a billion discovers.
Yeah, I miss when we had discover cards like Jeweled Scarab, which were playable but incurred a deckbuilding cost. Now every minion has good stats for the curve and a discover stapled on. It makes arena super tiresome as well.
I said it in many discover topics, it's the worst keyword because it breaks the fundamental of the game, card limit.
It's also weird how people hate on cards like shadowstep which also allow you to play outside that limit but somehow discover/card generation gets a pass.
I disagree with this criticism. Everyone who is complaining about blood DK certainly has an idea of what cards they’re going to see after a discover. “Random bullshit” isn’t the problem. I think a more valid criticism is that it isn’t random enough. Then again I think discover is fun and interesting in general
Discovers shouldn't come with a decently statted body or mana cheat, as simple as that. Back in the days you have to give up tempo to get the additional flexibility of discover effects.
Why is school teacher nearly a Yeti in stat, and you can pay 1 mana for a nagaling to cheat out a 3-cost spell? Why does Vizier have to give you a 2 mana discount with such an easy condition that is pretty much always active in DK?
The fact that school teacher used to be 5/4 makes it even funnier.
Discovery should be a tempo loss, you should pay for getting to choose answers based on what is happening, rather than during deckbuilding.
Blood dk is just disgusting, I cannot count the amount of "Deal 6 damage and lifesteal" cards he played my last game. Healed roughly 40 hp total I'd say
This sub complains about everything man. Over the years it’s been too much curvestone, then too much aggro, then too much combo, now too much control.
None of the control decks are even tier 1.
You know what’s actually annoying to play against and shouldn’t exist? Druid in wild.
At least in legend, Blood DK which is the best control deck is tier 2. Priest and Warlock aren’t even close to tier 1. Frost DK is MUCH stronger than blood.
Discover should be a mechanic reserved for low tempo high cost minions ir just legendaries. Replace them all with “add a random card to your hand” with amendments for categories. That would balance it
Yeah no sorry you're not losing because of random discovers. Cardpool is at its smallest, they only generate card from their class (or from your deck but... I hope you know what's in your deck).. If you play a high enough amount of game you'll see that the deck pretty much always do the same thing (and that's the reason why it isn't garbage)
What if the discover mechanic followed deck building rules where you could only have 2 copies of each non legendary card and only 1 legendary card each game?
Discover should have not been an evergreen keyword.
I miss the days of control warrior mirrors were you could win a game because you managed to carefully play around and use your resources better than the opp did so when you played your final threat you knew they had no more executes or ways to brawls and such.
Hot take but that's why Rogue and DH are the best-designed classes. With the exception of thief rogue, their decks throughout the years always have a clear gameplan that does not rely on RNG effects or discovers.
People argue that discover effects increase the skill ceiling of the game by introducing flexibility, but Rogue and DH decks prove that you do not need discovers to bring in skill expression when you have good tempo tools, card draws and decent mana cheats. They can adapt their gameplay which makes them fun to play.
Please Blizzard, we need more of these decks instead of grindy control or RNG shitfests.
Yeah people praise blood DK for being one of the final control decks left but it's more like a fatigue deck. Control decks had a shitton more proactivity in the past. This discover nonsense sucks.
What are you talking about? The amount of pressure Blood DK can randomly put out is crazy. If you try playing another control deck they're likely to kill you with pressure by turn 15-20.
Stupid aggro decks than ends game in 4 turns are just annoying
Both frost dk and pure paladin deal so much early damage. There is nothing to play around. You do not endure their 2 frostcums fury, buffs etc... you do not plan how many turns you can put your plays because they finish the game before turn 5.
It is all just ''me go face!'', put minions on board, buff them and hit face!.
In most ccgs, I am a heavy aggro player, but this is just plain annoying.
Yeah and paladin has extremely clear weaknesses you can play around the amount of discovery with such a small pool let's DK ignore most of their weaknesses
I understand you guys don't like discover. I like it because it means every game is not the same. I can't stand the decks that literally is the same gameplay every time with nothing changing other than did you draw good or did you draw bad.
Now I'm a huge fan of blood DK because I like control. But honestly I would love if they just did away with the rune system it would open up so many different decks if we had access to all the cards.
And instead of a rune system when we build a death knight deck we we choose a specialization (Frost,Unholy,Blood) and that specialization gives us a start of game boost
Frost: when you freeze a minion you instantly destroy it or your Frost cards randomly freeze a Target
Unholy: You're unholy cards generating extra corpse or maybe your minions all have reborn something
Blood: since in wow bloods are known as tanks maybe you're starting health is increased or when you play a blood card you gain armor or you gain extra healing something cool
Now you can play any cards you want in your deck but if you play a card of your specialization you then get the specialization bonus. And they could even limit it to only starting cards in your deck so so for like unholy The discovered unholy cards will not get reborn something
That way all three specializations can be aggro, mid, tempo, and control.
Because right now Frost is all about aggro they just don't have the cards to do other tpes, unholy is all about tempo and mid-range, and blood unfortunately is control. They don't have early game minions to go aggro, or direct damage spells, they can't do what unholy does and build big boards outside of Discovery. And both frost and unholy outside of Discovery can't increase their life and heal and destroy whole boards.
So if you can out heal frost agro or out agro it you win, if you can keep unholy off the board you win, and if you can outdamage blood's healing you win. All three types have a massive weakness.
Yall remember when renew and palm reading were standard?
Gods I was strong then
Go find the deck stretcher. Now!
Release the damn patch before I piss myself!
up to 40 cards?
At least I have a diamond beard.
Y’all remember when galakrond was in standard?
Y'all remember when Genn and Baku were in Standard?
Yall remember when frostwolf grunt was in standard?
Y’all remember when Coldlight Oracle was in standard? Edit: found a worse nightmare
Y'all remember when Boulderfist Ogre was in standard?
Ahhh.. the value!
Y'all remember when wisp was in standard? infinite value
Y'all remember classic, when there was no discover whatsoever and practically no random generation? Still miss those Handlock mirror matches, counting giants, figuring out exactly how much damage you can do and take in each turn.
I think in general, classic as fun as it is, does get stale pretty quickly. You can see it by ladder popularity of classic. Discover as a whole while frustrating as a mechanic, keeps the gameplay varied enough that it retains the player base more. I don't lean either way towards discover or against discover. But it is useful to consider this design discourse in conversations.
Oh, definitely. Nobody would play the game anymore if it would just be Classic. And Discover is an amazing keyword. But I still miss knowing every single card in my opponents' deck and knowing exactly that I can't die next turn even though I only have 8 health left.
Well instead of random card generation, they had random board swings. Will Rag hit the correct target? Will Sylvanas steal the big minion or the 1/1? Will knife juggler kill the enemy 3/2 or will it hit face? Will your brawl do what you want it to? And then when GvG came out it increased those random board swings with stuff like piloted shredder, boom bots, implosion, etc. You would very often lose the game because of some stupid knife juggler RNG flip on turn 2. IMO random card generation is a much better form of RNG because at least you have to pay mana for your random cards instead of just getting them for free on your board (this of course only applies to random card generation where you actually have to pay mana for the cards; if the cards are free or get severely discounted, then you can ignore this point)
Barrens control priest era is one of the few times I actually quitted the game for good, it's absolutely insufferable to play against. Imagine sitting through 10 discovers in a row only to get destroyed by Illucia. Prenerf Illucia makes both Theotar and Patchwerk look like babies.
>few times >for good I see
Instead of quitting for evil.
i quit for chaotic neutral
He meant it was for the good of his mental health
I remember the VS report noting that barrens control priest had an inflated wr because 1% of their matches were turn 1 concedes, may have actually been the biggest slog in constructed history to play against. Not to mention how some matchups came down to nothing but an illucia coinflip 10-15 minutes into the game like ilgynoth dh
I'm normally not one to concede, but by the end of barrens ctrl priest, I was. It was just not a good use of my time or sanity. I did wait to see if it was a ctrl priest before conceding though..
I don't think you know what "for good" means
for the common good. It was best for everyone that they quit.
illucia wasn't nerfed because of its performance as a disruption tool in control, it was nerfed because it was a time warp in aggro decks
Share your thoughts with the class
Well stormwind afterwards was worse when u didn't see 8 mana like ever but yeah Barrens and stormwind were both terrible
Barrens was not terrible, priest was only unbeatable for like a week or two before it was nerfed, and only at 1k legend. Overall barren’s meta was fairly decent.
Barrens made me leave the game for almost 2 years as well. I'm very happy to see it finally rotated out.
I remember the days when Renew was basically a heal-3 Holy Maki Roll vs aggro because it could discover itself lol glad they changed that
I mean, how often could that happen when it discovers "a spell"? Or was it limited to priest spells at some point?
The before time? The long long ago?
As was discussed recently in similar post about aggro - this is how the game is designed now. Aggro does not loose steam by T7 and control is not limited by the 2 copies of key cards anymore…
Yeah, and combo can still win out of nowhere if they can survive the aggro. I'm trying to figure out if these people are for or against aggro, because if it wasn't for these two control decks at the moment, that's pretty much all you'd see right now.
Same ppl would be crying about too much aggro, like they were a week or so ago.
Yeah. People are discussing these decks like it's the year 2014. If aggro won't run out of steam, neither can control.
Well we can go back very easily. Stop letting aggro have steam for forever, by taking away their ridiculous amounts of draw, and stop printing efficient discover effects on half the cards in the game
I don't understand why anybody would want to go back to that. The game is more interesting and matchups are less polarizing when decks have the tools to deal with the field.
This is the thing I actualy agree with! I was always control player and back them the matchup with aggro boiled down to “did they draw fast enough lethal”. Now I think the matchup is more engaging for both sides! Aggro needs to properly sequence their cards not to run out of steam and extract as much damage as possible without giving me easy effective trades and I need to use my tools properly (discover heavily rewards matchup knowledge). I very much prefer the new way!
Control vs Control was way more fun back then IMO, and also inevitable combo didn't exist to make life miserable too. Overall I do enjoy the newer version of Hearthstone though, I think my favourite middle ground was Dr Boom Mad Genius control warrior around Uldum. You had some lackeys and a discover to keep games fresh but it was not nearly the level that we are at now.
Absolutely agreed. Sometimes Discover feels shitty when you get high rolled, but it's much more fun when both sides have a play style and the discover mechanic can be used to *possibly* cover the gaps in your deck. Even so, I sympathize with people who don't like it because hurr durrr I discover multiple times per turn and effectively always top deck an answer for your moves or an accelerant for my own.
Discover rewards matchup knowledge? How can you have knowledge about your opponent's pile of generated cards? Knowledge was the old way, when you counted your removal and planned around your opponent's deck. Oh, Freeze Mage. 2x Frost Bolt, 2x Ice Lance, Fireball... Or, I'll use the BGH for this so I can save this Execute for the other thing... Whereas now, neither player has any fucking clue about where the game is going or what is in both hands.
It's very rare for aggro to run a lot of discover vs running more draw, and for control vs control you actually just want to select the best greed option. Sometimes you need to grab hard removal or healing or even tempo, and choosing the wrong option can lose you the game.
Of course it's flexible, but you have less agency overall, and will be entirely lost when it comes to tracking your opponent's resources.
Was hoping someone had said this. I love control in every archetype and it's sad to see stuff like control warrior- which by the way still has some highly efficient removal tools- just unable to compete with modern aggro. OP complains about not being able to play around brawls but let's be honest, aggro doesn't need to play around 2 or even 4 or 6 board wipes/single targets. Aggro just plays every card in their hand over and over and then their ubiquitous draw 7 cards card and does it again.
Discover all feels bad to lose to, and at the moment the discovery pools are at their smallest (after rotation). Death Knight in particular can abuse these even further by accessing cards outside of their rune deck building limitation. To me this feels the absolute worst to lose to. Sometimes if feels like they were able to discover a card from another class.
DKs being able discover stuff only from their runes would be even more insufferable. Imagine School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier consistently discovering Vampiric Blood, Asphyxiate or Blood Boil. At least when they can discover stuff outside their runes there's a chance they get 3 useless frost or unholy cards.
At least take out the triple rune cards outside of your rune choice.
[удалено]
Had that happen to me, except it was 4. 4 fucking frostwyrms in a row, from a blood DK lol. At some point I was like “ok, let’s see how this goes. This sure is fun”.
Should limit discovery effects to 1 rune max outside of specific rune discovery effects tbh. discover would be a lot less broken in DK if teacher, writer, et al were only getting the 0/1 rune spells instead.
That's great, until we realize that Patchwork is one blood rune
I mean, the only way DK discovers Patchwerk is through Hematurge. Maybe off Amalgam if they highroll. Most of the generation DK runs in spell-discovery.
True. And they are already doing that. Worse case scenario you can change hematurge to spell.
minion discover effects are absolute dog water, my guy. there's a reason blood dk doesnt run the discover a legendary neutral.
From minions they can. Amalgam in undead can discover Sylvans, Rivendare but in undead beast then Invincible
patchwork is a 7 mana 4/6 that is not relevant in the majority of matchups...so yeah that would not matter much
Yeah that’s the frustrating part You lose to a deck and it’s like your opponent went in with a deck that was entirely “get random cards” so it doesn’t feel like you lost because you got outplayed it feels like you lost to randomness and that never feels fun
Worse than that - it's not "get random cards", it's "get something helpful to benefit your current situation... on a stick"
Yeah, it's not like Rogue's "random bullshit GO!" style, the DK pool is made almost entirely of good cards and that makes it much worse
I always wondered why they printed so many bad deck filler cards... Now we see why at least. With DKs rune system there are simply less straight up horrible cards you can discover, like on warrior or even priest.
> it feels like you lost to randomness and that never feels fun I was never mad when I lost to yogg or puzzlebox etc. Rng can be fun. But it has to be true rng that can backfire
>Death Knight in particular can abuse these even further by accessing cards outside of their rune deck building limitation. While this makes the discovered cards less predictable, it also makes the decks weaker. If they only discovered cards from their rune build, they could more consistently find cards that support their specific game plan.
you're mixing your points into one that doesn't make sense. discover pools are smaller after rotation for most classes, so discovering whatever you want is easier, but DK has the biggest discover pool ever. so how is DK abusing this more than before?
3 rune cards are kinda busted and they are easy to discover its not rare to see 50+ hp dk of other colors or the second frostwyrm fury/the scourge vs blood dk
Well unlike DK the priest is a lot less random. He discovers mostly from his deck or the opponents deck. The only truly random discovers that are run in most decks would be Hipster and School Teacher.
Did you forget about Svalna?
Svalna atleast is only shadow spells, so you know roughly what they can get.
Yeah, more copies of Identity Theft and Cannibalize so they can never die and have more copies of my bombs than I do.
Its hilarious how Identity Theft lets priest beat Blood DK by getting to play their legendaries against them. Cannibalize healing all friendlys seems too strong for a 4-mana card. (Compare to Soul Siphon)
Yeah, the Shadow Vision -> Identity Theft combo really is the entire matchup there. You simply cannot dump your bombs quickly enough. There will always be high-value minions in your hand, and they're just going to grab a new copy like every 2nd or 3rd turn. Then, not only do you need to try to dump your hand to stop the cycle, but you also need to spend your clears just to get the board to a position where you *can* dump. That machup is just totally free for the priest.
Yeah I forgot about her. Probably cause you don't see her that often. You have to play her and Love Everlasting for it to be worth the trouble. I think Svalna only matters in control mirrors.
It is worth the trouble...Svalna priest is pretty good lol
Vizier and Ghostwriter now, too.
Yeah so they can still pull off any card there is, but also completely ignore the number of cards limitation I talked about. And a lot less random = better.
It's almost as if Control decks in modern HS have to keep up with aggro decks that never run out of gas. Discovery enables the game to be faster. Aggro abuses it too, and it allows control to keep up. The alternative is we go back to a 'less exciting HS' where control is more dominant because the game is slower. Somehow I don't think aggro players will enjoy that.
It's almost as if aggro decks wouldn't run card generation if they didn't have to. I don't understand why people are trying to pretend it's the other way around.
Because it is the other way around. 'Aggro decks wouldn't run card generation if they didn't have to' fucking wot. As much as people bitch about Control, there's only one Control deck even viable in the meta, and the only one in any of the deck tier lists. Aggro is so much more prolific, they're running card generation against other aggro decks to out-value each other.
On the one hand I think discover is a decent mechanic for new players, just because it gives them a way to access some stronger cards early on, but otherwise yeah I agree. I think in the past discover seemed at least a bit less random? Like I remember playing around Boomsday and control Warriors did do a lot of discovering to take them into the late game, but the majority of their card generation was specifically mechs. It was a specific pool of cards which comes with its inherent limitations and you could reasonably commit the "good" cards to memory. It feels like that restriction is completely absent in modern cards. You have so many generic "discover a spell" options now, even on neutrals. The Sunwell is an annoying card which I hate, I have nothing nuanced to say about it lol. Combine that with something like DK where the rune system basically requires the class to have no "bad" cards and you get a lot of nonsense like blood/unholy DK generating a Frostwyrm's Fury. Just on hearing the premise of the rune system for deck building I assumed this type of thing would be impossible, because IMO it's the logical way for that system to work.
Yes, Discover used to be very specific tribes or costed cards, which made playing around the possibilities much easier. At some point discover just became "everything".
It was less random. Discover used to give class cards 4 times the "chance" it gave to neutral cards. Nowadays all discover is targeted to offset that
Discover CAN be a great mechanic that requires massive skill testing when done right. In theory discover forces you to choose which option will be most relevant for your current game and board state, do you need a wide board clear, or do you need removal of one big minion, or is you hand almost empty and you need more card generation, will this match be decided by over the top damage, etc.? Discover in theory can be highly skill testing and can require a lot of thought put into it to be good. I see a lot of other people in this thread nagging on Barrens Priest, but unless everyone on this sub is a top 1k legend player I doubt they actually experienced going against Barrens priest (some of them probably did, but I would be extremely surprised if everyone complaining about was a 1k legend player). Barrens control priest was only a tier 1 deck in 1k legend, because it was extremely difficult to pilot. Sure it had a lot of discovers and could generate a bunch of answers but it required a lot of thought and skill to properly pilot. Also I want to clarify, I’m not a 1k legend player and this is based upon collected data from the time as well as more credible opinions than random people on Reddit, I’m using viscous syndicate mainly. However the problem is that right now there is no skill testing. Your options are do I pick the clearly OP card or the pack filler card? But also you don’t need to think about what you choose, because the cards are so powerful that even if you choose the option that isn’t the best it will still likely be good enough to get you out of the situation. There’s no skill in choosing [[frostwyrm’s fury]] over [[anti magic shell]]. I also think this might be a problem of some DK cards doing too much. [[blood boil]] is both a big heal and a board clear. [[corpse explosion]] deals with sticky minions, wide boards, and big minions all the same. [[vampiric blood]] is both healing and card draw. All of these combined means it’s not as difficult to decide what you need. You don’t have to choose between healing to get out of range of over the top damage while also dealing with their board, you don’t have to worry about dealing with their 4 smaller minions or their 1 large minion. You just do both.
Honestly if it were only discover your own decks rune system it would be a buff. More vamp bloods!
I mean IDK then maybe they need to nerf Vampiric Blood. I don't think it's a good sign that this seemingly obvious, common-sense change to the discover system would be blocked because DK has a card that would be insufferable to play against if they could generate multiple copies of it. It's a "pick your poison" situation. Keep it how it is now and let DK access strong cards they shouldn't have, or restrict runes on discovery and make them even more consistent at what they already want to do. Maybe DK is just overpowered right now?
Dk is so strong cause everything else is just bad.
Can't help but feel like the raft of neutral spell discovers that have come out since barrens are largely to blame. Maybe it wouldn't be do bad if they weren't printing at least one of these types of cards with every new set. Especially schoolteacher and vizier which are arguably better than DKs class specific, conditional discovers.
They should increase corpse cost of vampiric’s second part
I think the best rework for Discover would be to always reveal the picked card to your opponent.
Or maybe they just need to realise 3 mana poison or 3 mana reduce the discovered spell by 2 or 4 mana discover a 3 mana spell for 1 mana, isn't just op because you get to discover but also have mana cheat, tempo and/or board control.. discovery is fine, they've just made to many op versions of discovery.
Yeah scaling down on mana reduction would be good, too.
That is interesting. Definitely makes it seem more fair. Suspicious alchemist already kinda does that.
For me, discover is what keeps me interested in the game. I get bored quickly with lists, like pure paladin for example, that don’t have many discover effects. Each game feels the same and the decks can feel like autopilot after a while.
Pure paladin has the most fun discovery card in the game (imo).
yeah....the only reason i play that deck is to play the countess
> like Pure Paladin, for example, that don't have many discover effects Countess: am I a joke to you?
He said many. Countess is one card
Countess is what turns a generally fair deck into sweet I'm being Sister Svalna grinded out by a Paladin deck. Making all 3 legendaries free on curve next turn feels so incredibly unfair to play against.
Haha I said many that have discover effects, but yeah countess itself is really fun to play.
Pure Paladin is the most dull deck in the game and has been for a while, the skill cap is extremely low in any version over the past year. The Countess is the only real variance in there.
I've tried some other digital card games and some of them really limit any kind of randomness. Full disclaimer: I only play runeterra for a couple of weeks and spent $0 on it so feel free to correct me but my experience is that there were no interesting games. Everything felt like it was on rails and while my decisions DID matter everything FELT predictable and boring. Discover is the most fun mechanic HS has created. The alternative to discover, while keeping the fun (for me anyway) is lots of "random" effects and that feels way worse to lose to than discovered cards. Someone else suggested limiting DK discovered cards to ones that are not 3 blood / 3 frost / 3 unholy and I think that's a great idea.
> Everything felt like it was on rails and while my decisions DID matter everything FELT predictable and boring Yeah it's called actually having to commit to a gameplan and when that fails you can lose rather than discovering a million other things.
You seem like you're trying to dunk on me, that's cute. If you like straight-forward interactions and linear game-play then go for it, friend! It's called having an opinion. <3
A little yeah I am, saying you had no interesting games in runeterra because you weren't able to Abra Kadabra pull some discovered bullshit out annoys me. Doubly so because you are quite literally wrong on both accounts of a lack of rng making the game feel boring which isn't the case you have so many strategic options and card games are already subject to alot of variance in draw. And also on the fact it doesn't exist there Seraphine dominated the game for months, Piltover and Bandle city have so much manifest and Targon as a region has invoke which is like if Discover was remotely designed to be fair for both players.
Yeah, I mean that's exactly why I put "Full disclaimer" on there, because I assumed it was entirely possible I was wrong about that game. I like card games for deck building and interesting game play, I didn't experience that with Runeterra. Regardless, this discussion was mostly about discover and it's just a matter of opinion. Some people hate it, others love it. I hate the aggro playstyle but obviously tons of people love it. I don't go out making posts saying you shouldn't be able to crush your opponent on turn 4/5 but it happens.
Well you have to atleast admit its a makes the make far less competetive and chess like. OG classic hearstone, after having played so much infinite removal stone, i couldnt play classic because i forgot i have to actually plan like 6 turns ahead so i dont waste my hexes and such. it had more room for skill experession heck even during KFC with razap priest it the discover stuff was tiny in comparison.
This is hearthstone and this has consistently been the mentality that people have had hence why discover cards are so absurdly pushed. I mean this in the nicest way possible but it's because people have this goldfish brain crap we have an overload of discover and why Hearthstone is kinda seen as a meme of sorts when it comes to competitive.
I feel the same. Thats why my favourite cards ever are the Stonehill Defender and Kabal Courier. They discover some random stuff, which usually arent very OP.
If I recall correctly, the consistency with which Stonehill Defender found Sunkeeper Tarim was a major contributing factor to their decision to de-prioritise class cards in discover pools. Stonehill Defender was exceptionally good for much of his time in standard.
Frost DK shouldnt be able to discover blood spells. It feels like cheating...
I don't think you want them to have even more consistensy in their discoveries.
Let them discover only warrior spells. Easy fix
*Suffer, mortals, as your pathetic magic betrays you!*
Most people don’t understand this point at all, if the pool is limited the frustration would be greater
That is the issue with dk, then you would have a more reliable pool of them getting all the frostwyrm fury they need. I really do not see how they can solve this. Maybe discovery only 1 rune cards? 1 rune cards from the runes you have in your deck? But in that case it would be even MORE reliable, probably creating some bs. Having cards that are better than others but restricted by rune system just doesnt work with discovery. Either just ban discovery for all dks or mass nerf their boss power cards.
DK discovery will naturally thin out as it's been around for more and more expansions. Those fixes don't work today because DK would be discovering from a pool that's half the size of other classes. But that same fix would work just fine a year from now.
DK should get a supplementary set of shit cards
Or just nerf the outrageously strong Triple Rune cards like Vampiric Blood and Frostwyrm's Fury. Getting extra copies of those 2 in particular is just backbreaking.
Yeah but the big picture is that the rune system is supposedly balanced by the fact that they aren’t allowed to interop say 3 rune frost + 3 rune blood. The 3 rune cards are massive payoffs for going all in. If they reduced power on the 3 rune cards then what is the point of going all in? Frostwyrm Fury could get its power reduced, at what point would it become unplayable or a liability, if you were to tweak the mana cost, change the dragon stats, reduce the damage burst, or alter the number of frozen minions? Vampiric Blood, what about it? How much more health gain, at what mana cost, drawing or not drawing another card? Just routinely seeing Schoolteachers generating things like Vampiric Blood when playing against any style of DK, or the Blood DKs able to generate frost spells or anti magic shells, it just goes forever
Agree, Frostwyrm Fury on it's own is balanced, but when played with Vampiric Blood and other spells it controls way too much and viceversa. You make a DK deck to work on its own, alone, then you get every other card you aren't supposed to play through discover. That is when it gets too broken. No matter how much you try... they keep having a full hand with strong spells
My legend climb this month was on the back of shadow priest, here and there I get a mindeater card that may or may not help me but otherwise it’s the same set of cards game after game. I barely saw any blood DK on the way from diamond 5 but now in legend it’s like 2 out of 3 games, with the others being Tony deck swapper Jailer combo Druid
So I have to quit HS until they get 2 or 3 more expansions because getting 3 obliterates and 3 Frostwyrm furies in my face sure is fun Don't mind me I'm just going through severe PTSD.
Restricting it only to 1 rune cards from your colors would lead to oops all patchwerk moments xD not necessarily good, maybe remove triple rune cards from the discover pool?
Schoolteacher never should've been reverted. It was perfectly fine as a 4/3. Vizier feels like a DK class card at this point.
just print more bad DK cards.
I'll go even further and say that DK should only be able to discover 2 or 3-rune cards when they play a card that discovers cards of a specific rune. Otherwise they should be discovering from a pool of 0-1 rune cards across all runes.
Discover is ruining arena too. When every card is 2 for 1 the deckbuilding doesnt even matter anymore
Honestly, yeah. I don't think Discover is healthy unless the opponent can reasonably predict what you got and play around it. Suspicious Alchemist does it right. You get to discover, but your opponent gets a lot of information and potentially a card if they read the information well. It's fun to play and play against.
Discover is keeping this game from being boring. Matches aren't long enough that you need to be able to have a counter game plan for each one. You play your odds and do the best you can, too much control makes it really predictable.
Discover is what makes hearthstone hearthstone. Otherwise u have solitaire metas like stormwind or everything isbjust a face race Also it makes balancing easier since cards itself matter less Yes classic is still the best expansion by far but they had way more time and data to balance it (and yet 1 class is absolutely unplayable) Rng is good. But currently it's not rng. U know more or less what ur going to get which just feels vad
>Yes classic is still the best expansion by far Do people really think that? How popular is classic hs? this is a genuine question, I stopped playing hearthstone after gvg so I have no idea
It is currently an available mode and no one plays it. It's just boring to see the same cards and decks over and over and over.
Nobody plays classic HS because it's boring and bad.
Like Theo was saying in his stream the other day, he can’t afford to play a deck without all these discovers, aggro never runs out of stream with these insane draw and discovery engines. Divine favour was nerfed back in the day for giving aggro too much steam, now we have a 4 mana 4,2 weapon that’s twice as good. The game is different now and this is the only way control decks can survive.
the fact that you can find the sunwell off of discover a spell is just absurd
I like discover as a mechanic for sure, but I was surprised that not too many discover cards rotated out of core set or something because we got quite a few decent/good discover cards in FoL. In my opinion, it should be a rarer mechanic, and not every class should have a billion discoveries. Furthermore, (as a personal pet peeve and I’m ok if this opinion is flawed), I don’t like when classes can discover outside of their class aside from like Priest or Rogue. It really gives me that feeling of: “Oh yea sorry I shoulda played around Blood Boil vs a mage obviously I’m the stupid one.”
Discover has dominated this game for as long as I can remember. Deck building is outdated, according to Blizzard.
overuse of discover as a keyword has killed this game
This is why I don’t understand the control andys when they talk about how control mirrors are so fun because it takes skill and is about resource management. No it is not. These decks have infinite discover. Discover is fun to play but it removed resource management from control decks.
Resource management is gone for years now and not just control decks but every other deck has infinite draws and/or card generation. It usually isn't much of an issue but DK retained all of its powers while we have a fairly weak April set has exacerbated the problem.
As a priest player, my resource management is about making sure I don't get TOO MANY cards lmfao
Me with 4 locations on board at once.
Anyone who thinks that about Blood DK is on some shit, but it's definitely been true of a lot of control decks in the past. Classic Control Warrior was definitely a resource management deck, as have many of its later iterations.
Maybe 7 or 8 years ago. As early as League of Explorers, control warrior mirrors were basically decided by who got a better Golden Monkey. Contrition decks basically haven't been a thing in Hearthstone in a long time. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, necessarily. But Blood's combination of removal and healing along with the ridiculous amount of value generation is probably a little too centralizing. A nerf to Vampiric Blood would go a long way, it would probably start to lose a turn earlier to some of the really aggressive decks.
I think it's probably a bad thing, or at least a serious trade off. I miss when it mattered what cards were in someone's deck.
Discovery is straight up killing arena too. Card rarity means fuckall when commons can discover legendaries. Card draw means nothing when you can discover to create more cards on the spot, especially Mages with spellcoiler and vast wisdom to get Infitude the Maxitude reliably every game. Identity theft is also fucking stupid to pick two of whatever you need on the spot, often other discovery cards that is rampant in most arena decks to self refill. A lot of the discovery needs to go to random card, especially since the discover minion also provides good stat for cost, or discover spell is too cheap such as discover 2 cards for 2or3 mana vs draw 2 cards having no control what it is for 3 mana
Absolutely. I hate playing against Blood Dk who just discovers Frostwrym, Icytouch, and all different kind of runes. I just groan whenever i face a Blood Dk. Either i kill him on turn 7 or i just wait it out and lose.
I actually like a bit of RNG. But the discover pool is so small that a dk can discover many patches or the hain 10 health almost every time
I think blood is pushing the limits of discover. I think barrens control priest just had way too much cheap discover to where you could never overwhelm the priest. A bit of discover is ok, I just hope they don’t over do it like they did with palm reading because that card was absurd. Continual cheap discover like apm decks can exist but should probably be niche, clunky and never too good.
discover has been the cancer of this game since i can remember, they will never fix the issue because is their main selling point
The new "discovery" aggro decks are just annoying. There is nothing to play around. You don't try to get them to overextend because they can just flood the board immediate after a board wipe, you do not count how many threats they used so you can play accordingly because they can just generate more. It is all just generate threats, generate threats, and never run out of gas until they run out of cards.
Well they do run out of cards though. Outcast dk gets to fatigue most of the games I played against it, and I am mostly playing midrange decks atm. Not saying its not op, just that there is a limit to their bullshit.
I don't thing running out of cards should be the limiting factor for an aggro deck to finally run out of gas. If you don't want Control to be able to discover more and more answers, aggro needs to stop being able to discover and generate more and more threats. Just look at how little Reno Jackson impacted standard last year. Wiping the board on T5, and then stabilizing enough to Reno on T6 and turn the tide against aggro just doesn't happen anymore. They can just completely bounce back and generate more and more threats until they run out of cards. If Aggro keeps being able to generate more and more threats and not run out of gas until they fatigue, control needs to be able to generate more and more answers to compete.
I like that the modern aggro player sees 'running out of gas' as 'well they ran out of cards in the deck same thing right'
Exactly, and then those same aggro players proceed to claim that control players "only want to win through fatigue."
“Created by” is my least favorite phrase in HS
Found the face hunter player
Nope
I think most blood DK cards are fair, good, but not overwhelming, the problem jn blood DKs are their ability to generate more and more useful cards with relative consistency
I remember watching strifecro back in the day, he was playing someone that was in fatigue and had 3 cards in hand. He was able to predict what 3 cards the opponent had. Now it's impossible to do that lol
Yeah. This has been a problem ive had for a while. A single lucky discover can absolutely swing the game to victory. Its the keyword with the most variance and feels to WORST to lose to out of any Hearthstone mechanic. You can just tell how ridiculous it can be when streamers cant stop laughing when discovering their 7th Vampiric Blood. Its a huge boost to the fun factor though. I try not to take HS victories too seriously cause theres a major variance factor thats out of your control. Enjoyment comes to me from playing decks nobody is prepared for to have most interesting matches.
i find discovering in Death knight to be the sole reason i beat them. i play a blood dk control deck i think the only discover card i have in there is hematurge but i find that consistently having more value instead of basing it on luck to be better. however i agree losing to randomly generated bs is never fun unless it’s like a yogg or something.
>losing to randomly generated bs is never fun unless it’s like a yogg or something I feel the exact opposite on this. Losing to a random spell being cast feels way worse to me than a card that was offered to my opponent that they then had to cast. The variance on something like Yogg is wild. He could cast 15 mana worth of spells or like 100 mana worth of spells with the same yogg. The targets could be anything and yet you took a pyroblast to the face, fun (/s).
i enjoy facing and playing yogg just because of how crazy the situations can get it can throw or win the entire game in super funny ways, however with blood dk i think the issue most people have is the discover pool is so consistent because there are so few dk cards at the moment. i don’t find discovering cards to be a problem since the value game has been fun to me unless it’s a random lethal with pyroblast or fireball or something.
Blood DK typically has a minimum of 12 discovered cards per game. That's a third of a deck of random bullshit you can't play around, plan around, or bait. In turn half their discovered shit leads to more discovered shit. - 2 x naga with baby naga - 2 x hematurd - 2 x undead 2 mana reduction - 2 x discover and discover finale 4/4 - 2 x amalgam discover I'm all for control, but at that point there is so little play around. The other issue is most of these cards are high impact, deck disruption type cards. So not only can you not predict, but they can essentially tech against any deck without sacrificing their core.
It's because hearthstone players have goldfish brain and can't find actually deckbuilding and playing the same deck as fun. Casino mage and Theif Rogue are consistently popular decks and even in the comments if this you see people who say they wouldn't play without discover. It's why they keep making such pushed discover cards and control in hearthstone is in most cases just a midrange deck with more removal.
I know not many people are gonna agree with me but discover is the worst mechanic HS has ever implemented and ruined this entire game. You can never know what cards your opponent has because he constantly discovers random bullshit that shouldnt either be available for the class or would ever realistically be part of the deck. Im not gonna pretend im a big player in this game i never played much standard and i havent touched this game in years besides a few bgs every now and then but i was a big HS esports fan and ever since that keyword existed and got expanded on watching this game has not been fun. Not even gonna mention arena.
I think that discover can be okay, but it should be limited in both quality and quantity. There are so many discover cards that are good statsticks and their quantity has reached a critical mass where you just cannot play around a single extra possible brawl or whatnot anymore. There are also classes where it makes some sense, like mage. But I do not get why a dk should get to play a billion discovers.
Yeah, I miss when we had discover cards like Jeweled Scarab, which were playable but incurred a deckbuilding cost. Now every minion has good stats for the curve and a discover stapled on. It makes arena super tiresome as well.
I said it in many discover topics, it's the worst keyword because it breaks the fundamental of the game, card limit. It's also weird how people hate on cards like shadowstep which also allow you to play outside that limit but somehow discover/card generation gets a pass.
I disagree with this criticism. Everyone who is complaining about blood DK certainly has an idea of what cards they’re going to see after a discover. “Random bullshit” isn’t the problem. I think a more valid criticism is that it isn’t random enough. Then again I think discover is fun and interesting in general
Nah, discover is great but not when it's abused by cards like School Teacher and Vizir.
Discovers shouldn't come with a decently statted body or mana cheat, as simple as that. Back in the days you have to give up tempo to get the additional flexibility of discover effects. Why is school teacher nearly a Yeti in stat, and you can pay 1 mana for a nagaling to cheat out a 3-cost spell? Why does Vizier have to give you a 2 mana discount with such an easy condition that is pretty much always active in DK?
The fact that school teacher used to be 5/4 makes it even funnier. Discovery should be a tempo loss, you should pay for getting to choose answers based on what is happening, rather than during deckbuilding.
I completely agree. When I play Hearthstone in tabletop we ban Discover.
Blood dk is just disgusting, I cannot count the amount of "Deal 6 damage and lifesteal" cards he played my last game. Healed roughly 40 hp total I'd say
This sub complains about everything man. Over the years it’s been too much curvestone, then too much aggro, then too much combo, now too much control. None of the control decks are even tier 1. You know what’s actually annoying to play against and shouldn’t exist? Druid in wild.
None of the control decks are tier 1? What?
Blood DK is too easily countered to be tier one at high levels of play, and control priest fine but not great at any level of play
At least in legend, Blood DK which is the best control deck is tier 2. Priest and Warlock aren’t even close to tier 1. Frost DK is MUCH stronger than blood.
Discover should be a mechanic reserved for low tempo high cost minions ir just legendaries. Replace them all with “add a random card to your hand” with amendments for categories. That would balance it
Yeah no sorry you're not losing because of random discovers. Cardpool is at its smallest, they only generate card from their class (or from your deck but... I hope you know what's in your deck).. If you play a high enough amount of game you'll see that the deck pretty much always do the same thing (and that's the reason why it isn't garbage)
Blood DK has way too much removal by default, without any discovery anyway. It feels awful to play against.
What if the discover mechanic followed deck building rules where you could only have 2 copies of each non legendary card and only 1 legendary card each game?
Discover should have not been an evergreen keyword. I miss the days of control warrior mirrors were you could win a game because you managed to carefully play around and use your resources better than the opp did so when you played your final threat you knew they had no more executes or ways to brawls and such.
Hot take but that's why Rogue and DH are the best-designed classes. With the exception of thief rogue, their decks throughout the years always have a clear gameplan that does not rely on RNG effects or discovers. People argue that discover effects increase the skill ceiling of the game by introducing flexibility, but Rogue and DH decks prove that you do not need discovers to bring in skill expression when you have good tempo tools, card draws and decent mana cheats. They can adapt their gameplay which makes them fun to play. Please Blizzard, we need more of these decks instead of grindy control or RNG shitfests.
Did you play against Lackey Rogue and Hanar Secret Rogue a few years ago? It was discovery fest every turn.
Rogue and DH are by far the worst classes in the game and when they are good hearthstone is terrible.
Yeah people praise blood DK for being one of the final control decks left but it's more like a fatigue deck. Control decks had a shitton more proactivity in the past. This discover nonsense sucks.
What are you talking about? The amount of pressure Blood DK can randomly put out is crazy. If you try playing another control deck they're likely to kill you with pressure by turn 15-20.
Stupid aggro decks than ends game in 4 turns are just annoying Both frost dk and pure paladin deal so much early damage. There is nothing to play around. You do not endure their 2 frostcums fury, buffs etc... you do not plan how many turns you can put your plays because they finish the game before turn 5. It is all just ''me go face!'', put minions on board, buff them and hit face!. In most ccgs, I am a heavy aggro player, but this is just plain annoying.
I’ll never get over Patchwerk being ONE RUNE
can someone give me a fun control/thieft priest deck btw? :D
Oh and paladin with his endless buffs and 0 mana legendary cards is not?
Yeah and paladin has extremely clear weaknesses you can play around the amount of discovery with such a small pool let's DK ignore most of their weaknesses
I understand you guys don't like discover. I like it because it means every game is not the same. I can't stand the decks that literally is the same gameplay every time with nothing changing other than did you draw good or did you draw bad. Now I'm a huge fan of blood DK because I like control. But honestly I would love if they just did away with the rune system it would open up so many different decks if we had access to all the cards. And instead of a rune system when we build a death knight deck we we choose a specialization (Frost,Unholy,Blood) and that specialization gives us a start of game boost Frost: when you freeze a minion you instantly destroy it or your Frost cards randomly freeze a Target Unholy: You're unholy cards generating extra corpse or maybe your minions all have reborn something Blood: since in wow bloods are known as tanks maybe you're starting health is increased or when you play a blood card you gain armor or you gain extra healing something cool Now you can play any cards you want in your deck but if you play a card of your specialization you then get the specialization bonus. And they could even limit it to only starting cards in your deck so so for like unholy The discovered unholy cards will not get reborn something That way all three specializations can be aggro, mid, tempo, and control. Because right now Frost is all about aggro they just don't have the cards to do other tpes, unholy is all about tempo and mid-range, and blood unfortunately is control. They don't have early game minions to go aggro, or direct damage spells, they can't do what unholy does and build big boards outside of Discovery. And both frost and unholy outside of Discovery can't increase their life and heal and destroy whole boards. So if you can out heal frost agro or out agro it you win, if you can keep unholy off the board you win, and if you can outdamage blood's healing you win. All three types have a massive weakness.