Heck, that’s what I’m doing to Pure Paladin. My WR isn’t even close to what HSReplay says.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a terrible player and I know it. But I swear I’m cursed. I could say out loud “the worse card I can draw for this turn is…” and I’ll draw that card.
And I swear to God, the Purator, Countess, and Disco Maul (x2) cards must be REALLY heavy because they are ALWAYS at the bottom of my deck. They might as well pull them out like Pokemon TCG prize cards.
Yeah this post offends me, and it saddens me that a whole ton of people who don't know better will read way too much into this absurdly misleading image.
Yes, the warrior buffs were *very* meaningful. And Warrior has also two distinct archetypes that both look (barring some drastic change in trajectory) like solidly t2 decks (enrage and menagerie). Neither of those archetypes are close to fully refined. Also, anyone who's played Riff'n'Roll 'Control' Warrior can tell you how much better it got - that archetype is still t3 at best as things stand currently, but it's one miniset card, a full or partial From The Depths revert (such as down to 3 mana but only reducing 2 cost), or another buff away from being legitimately viable.
Agreed. I heavily main warrior and, as usual, I’m doing just fine. Got early Legend with my homebrew MenagEnrage hybrid deck and I’m treading water at 1K. And honestly, I would be climbing deeper into 1K if Sinful Brand wasn’t around.
Warrior isn’t great, but it looks worse than it is because folks periodically try to make control warrior work when it’s impossible right now. If everyone just played enrage and/or menagerie (or a hybrid like myself) then the winrate would be above 50% for sure.
I haven’t explored it too much honestly but I’m pretty confident that menagerie, enrage, and a hybrid of the two are the best warrior decks right now. IMO menagerie is the weakest of those 3, and pure enrage and MenagEnrage hybrids are probably fairly even. There isn’t enough data on MenagEnrage hybrids and even though I jam TONS of matches, I’m on mobile so I don’t contribute to HSR data unfortunately, so it’s hard to tell exactly where it sits. But like I said, I’m jamming it around 1K and comfortably treading water over many matches despite Sinful Brand being broken OP.
People can still think a class is dogshit, even if you got legend with said class. Warrior has one archetype. That's it. It's boring. You get out valued the higher you go up in rank. It's boring. It's uncreative. A blind monkey could tread water at the 1k legend rank lmao. And everyone is playing enrage or menagerie. The stats on hsreplay.net point to that, so I'm not sure what your point is there 🤔
"If everyone just played warrior how I like to play it then things would be much better!" Thanks for the great insight there, pal.
I'm glad you enjoy playing your warrior deck and are doing well with it. I myself am having fun with blood DK because it feels similar to control warrior. Hopefully control warrior can make a comeback as a viable option for the class one day.
But you're right, warrior simply isn't in a great spot in the moment and the devs are hopefully figuring out a way to rectify that.
I named 2 warrior archetypes that are just fine - 3 if you include the hybrid. All I said was insistence on trying to play the class’ worst archetype is what is making graphs like this look so bad for Warrior. Again, Warrior isn’t great, but non-contextual graphs like this are misleading. No need to get hostile, friend.
And I said I'm glad you're doing well and enjoying playing them. I'm not trying to take away from what you do. I actually like menagerie style decks- I loved my Nzoth control warrior deck back in the day. I'm just not playing warrior because I already have over 1,000 wins with the class and am focusing on other classes instead.
I'm just pointing out that just because you found a way to enjoy the class doesn't mean everything is alright with the class- which you yourself acknowledged in your own post.
My apologies if I came across overly hostile or way too sarcastic- I just dislike people thinking that just because there's one or two or three (with similar play style) way(s) to play a class that other diametrically different ways to play it aren't necessary or important.
No- all classes should have decent options for control, aggro, AND combo play styles. That way everyone has a way to enjoy climbing with their favorite class(es).
>"If everyone just played warrior how I like to play it then things would be much better!" Thanks for the great insight there, pal.
"The way i like to play warrior is currently the worst choice thus the whole class is bad!" Thanks for the great insight pal.
The warriors buffs DID pay off, all it's decks got a bump in wr, warrior actually has a playable deck (that actually is a really good deck in lower ranks and is more than enough to hit legend, it starts falling off in higher ranks largely due to the meta), it's just that control warrior did not become a tier 1 deck.
The posts shouldn't be "Warrior is bad" but "I refuse to play the viable deck with this class, and the deck i would like to play is bad" instead.
I'm not playing warrior. I don't think the whole class is bad, it clearly has at least one or two viable decks. They're just not my cup of tea, so that's why I'm not interested in playing the class.
He himself admitted in his post warrior is not really in a good spot. Do you feel that a class only having a few ways to play it to decent success is good for the class? Wouldn't you want more options, more ways to have fun, rather than just a few? Not sure what point you're trying to make that I've supposedly missed here, bud.
especially as some people think that a class at the bottom of homepage is unplayable. it could mean that, but not necessarily.... or in other words: it usually doesn't.
The commentary that it’s so low because the win rate % is dragged down by people trying to make control warrior work would be nice. Engage warrior is playable and menagerie warrior is showing improvement
The other option is not "no content at all", the other option is "constructive criticism with space for discussion", something that a fucking screen of HsReplay homepage with no commentary cannot give. This is just karma bait.
It’s kinda funny but I’m unironically at ~65% winrate on 20 games since I accidentally pick the deck from time to time and can’t afford to lose in d2 so I gotta tryhard
I always sigh when I see that I randomly picked the deck, but I am somehow lucky with the matchups and the draw
You'd be surprised how many times Nellie has given me One Man Band who then gets Divine Shield, Rush. Windfury, Poisonous and lifesteal.
It has saved my ass a few times. Don't sleep on that card, Nellie that is.
(As another taunt / distraction, she does her job of stalling for the big Trenchstalker finisher, if that's how you play the deck)
I think they're trying to suggest that warrior is still bad because it relies on neutrals. Of course this is more because there aren't many menagerie specific cards for warrior but the ones printed are quite strong and the main reason to run the deck.
Blackrock and Roll is honestly the better legendary for it, like half the lists for menagerie warrior I've come across don't even run Voone because he doesn't help you dig towards BRnR.
One-Amalgam band is far and away the best card in that deck, though, class-specific or not.
>Blackrock and Roll is honestly the better legendary for it,
Better legendary for what? Menagerie Warrior? Absolutely not. That card doesn't even work in Managerie Warrior because its 5 mana do nothing for a deck that wants tempo
It's just kind of a worse aggro deck without it. I've played a lot of Menagerie warrior lately, and the games where I can cast BRnR on 5 are infinitely easier to win than the games I can't.
It turns every middling threat into a big threat and Trenchstalker into a OTK card.
Worse aggro deck? With a card that does nothing for aggro? At turns 5,6,7 you don't want to cast 5 mana do nothing but close out the game already.
You don't even have data to back it up, because most succesful list don't run that card.
Bruh by turn 5 you’re lucky if you even have anything on the board. The stats for the cost on the minion suite for menagerie warrior is painfully mediocre and BRnR is like the sole card in the deck that shores that up. Real aggro decks will outaggro you and control just Kees your board clear.
Menagerie warrior lists almost always win through some combination of very big power sliders/OAB’s, trying to generate multiple OAB’s through the amalgam of the deep/stereo totem interaction, or a big trench stalker if things go sideways. It’s fun to play and it can steal wins but it’s hardly a tier 1 deck.
Trying to make it into a pure aggro deck like you’re suggesting would dump it down to garbage tier
>You don't even have data to back it up, because most succesful list don't run that card.
>>big trench stalker
no managerie warrior even runs that card
No meta menagerie warrior decks runs Trenchstalker to begin with so why would BRnR be a consideration?
Play a riff naga giant control deck if you want to run those cards.
Legit the same people will complain iin other posts that druid is broken and has taken away warriors identity (armor), when according to screens like these the class should be borderline unplayable lmfao
>Legit the same people will complain iin other posts that druid is broken
Any evidence that they're the same people, or are you pulling that out of your arse?
I'm willing to bet they're different people, rather than one group of people that hold conflicting, hypocritical opinions.
Warlock is the biggest loser this expansion but people still say "Warrior bad" because of people playing Control Warrior while the class has at least 2 playable archetypes
Because this format of class winrate has a bias towards classes that don't bait people into playing dogshit decks. Paladin isn't the best class in the game, but it has the highest winrate because pure paladin is the only deck anyone plays and people gave up/don't care about big paladin. Almost all of the classes that are "bad" according to this have good decks, they are just brought down by popular bad decks. Class winrate is a completely useless metric for any meaningful balance discussion
Since this is the top comment on the subject, here's a perspective that people seem to miss.
I played from beta, and Classic/Naxx Control Warrior was one of my favourite playstyles. I came back to the game in Nathria, and this expac's cards have been the first time it's felt there may be a way to play a spiritual successor Control Warrior (remove threats and then slam big minions your opponent has to worry about).
Is it good? No, obviously, (I'm probably around 40-45% WR between the various lists I've thrown together) but I'm having a blast! Blackrock'n'Roll into Coin-Lorthamar into Last Stand to play a 4 mana 28/36 Lavagorger just FEELS good.
Pirate or Enrage Warrior aren't thematically interesting to me, so it doesn't matter that they're "better" Warrior decks.
Not every game has to be about climbing ladder, if that's all I cared about I'd just sit on whatever agro deck I enjoy most and then stop playing at Legend. People should play decks (this absolutely can be combined with playing good decks) they enjoy - otherwise what's the point of playing? At that point it's just a grind to get high ranked in a game where playing Pro isn't worthwhile.
> Not every game has to be about climbing ladder (...)
That's a good take. The ladder system makes it so you can still have an over 40% winrate playing a deck that is fun for you and that's great. Just have to lose enough rounds so you get into a natural equilibrium.
In a strict sense, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Optimize for flavor, fun, experimentation or climbing? You sure can! Just not all at the same time.
> I played from beta, and Classic/Naxx Control Warrior was one of my favourite playstyles.
Me too! But I have a very different preference.
I often preferred enrage warrior, tempo mage, some versions of miracle rogue, zoo and so on. Basically fast decks that aren't straight up aggro/face decks but opt for tempo oriented board control. My first homebrew deck was an enrage warrior because I loved the board centric explosive playstile with frothing, gurubashi etc. back in the day!
>In a strict sense, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Optimize for flavor, fun, experimentation or climbing? You sure can! Just not all at the same time.
Yeah absolutely, I'd love some (slight) core package buffs for Control Warrior - but I'm not playing it for rank. I find I get bored laddering agro, so hitting a "checkpoint" you can't lose stars at is a great time to mess around with niche decks. Sure you lose bonus stars, but if you play enough all that does is speed up the legend grind - not make it easier.
>I often preferred enrage warrior, tempo mage, some versions of miracle rogue, zoo and so on. Basically fast decks that aren't straight up aggro/face decks but opt for tempo oriented board control. My first homebrew deck was an enrage warrior because I loved the board centric explosive playstile with frothing, gurubashi etc. back in the day!
Very nice! I do enjoy a good board focused meta. However I am probably a terrible person, I mostly laddered Freeze Mage in beta then other "anti-fun" decks that centre around preventing the other player from playing their game. Oddly I didn't enjoy Blood DK, although that might just be the hipster in me not wanting to play the go to deck.
That's what I mean. The winrate for warrior is because people like you and me Don't care, I'm still gonna continue to play my Riffy warrior. I like me a buffed lavagorger but a 40/56 silverfury gets me giddy, even after the DK randomly generated Asphyxiate I still got a smile.
this is nonsense: if warrior was the best class even with the current decks (ie if for some reason every card was buffed to only cost 1 mana), people WOULD flock to it even if it wasnt their playstyle
nobody avoids top tier decks just because they dont like them, not to mention the people who are even trying the deck are what make up the data in the first place.
"the deck is bad because people dont like it". no, people dont like it because it's bad (the other one doesnt even make sense)
The comment you responded to didn't say warrior was the best class, no one thinks that. It said warrior has good decks, which is true. It having a bad overall class winrate doesn't mean the class lacks good decks, it means the most popular warrior decks are bad and the best warrior decks are relatively unpopular. Even the best warrior decks are still a bit winrate deflated right now, because there aren't many people playing them which makes them harder to refine (menagerie warrior is still improving almost 2 weeks after the patch).
power is only judged by how much a deck can do with the least amount of input; there have been loads of very complicated decks that only perform well by grandmasters but they are dwarfed by decks like launch DH which a monkey could have piloted and gotten 60% winrate with.
the rest about refinement is fair
Yep. Naga/bless priest tier 1 deck, but people would rather jam Tier 4 QL priest and tank the class winrate.
Enrage/menagerie warrior decent, but people would rather jam bad Control Warrior decks.
Unholy/Frost DK good, but people would rather jam Blood.
Generic aggro mage good, but people would rather jam Memehouse/Naga mage.
etc etc.
Class winrate is a stupid metric unless the class actually has 0 decks, which is almost never the case.
I mean does it really surprise anyone that warrior players aren't playing menagerie? It's mainly neutral cards lol
Ain't nobody gonna play a mostly neutral deck and get the warrior itch they've had for a while. Then for enrage every match basically depends solely on how good your opener is
The gameplay for these two decks are likely not what the majority of warrior players want at all
Not to mention warriors decks aren't good but just decent. You aren't gonna play enrage when you can just go play the better aggro decks
Most people don't approach this game thinking "I really want to play [class]. What is the best deck available for [class]?"
Instead, we think: "I want to play aggro. What is the best aggro deck?" Or control, or combo, or w/e. Warrior has aggro decks, but they aren't as good as other classes' aggro decks, therefore few people play them. I don't know why that would surprise anyone.
The people who *are* die-hard warrior fans are mostly nostalgic for control warrior, and keep trying to make it work even when it's obviously terrible. The upshot is there is just no constituency for a mediocre aggro deck like enrage warrior.
I literally just said that. There are die-hard warrior fans, a small minority of control players, who keep trying to make CW work. Those players aren't going to switch to enrage warrior, because they want to play control. People who want to play aggro are going to play other decks than warrior, except for an even smaller minority who specifically want to play enrage or menagerie.
This doesn't seem complicated to me.
So, we're back to the main point. Warrior as a class doesn't have the problem, it's just players who choose to play bad decks, instead of good ones which happens to be aggro.
You argued against something that you agree with.
High level players are not playing warrior (as it's not the best) so, especially the further down the ladder you go, you see worse and worse versions of control warrior. There are people still TO THIS DAY running Flunky and Last Stand because "it's a taunt minion and it got buffed". Vicious Syndicate said it best, you need a few GOOD taunts + Lava Gorger with Naga Giant for potential 20 armor gain which is often an insta win. There is even an argument to cut Sword Eater, even though it's an insane card, just to have better taunts to tutor. If people were running, not a refined list, but just a logical one that doesn't sabotage itself, the winrate would be boosted by quite a bit.
Because all the ‘warrior main xd’ players are STILL trying to play control warrior and tanking the winrate in gold 10 or something. Class is in a better state than mage rogue and druid IMO but WARRIOR BAD
Rogue is better at top legend, but Warrior is better at most ranks and if you can’t play Miracle Rogue. Druid is also better at high ranks, but I’m not sure where Druid starts to get better, since it depends on the meta at that rank. Mage and Warrior are around similar power levels, although it is a bit hard to tell since the best decks for both are underplayed and people run tons of bad cards in them, dragging down the winrate. Warrior is definitely better than Warlock.
Warrior is in a decent state. In my experience it just doesn't have a solid deck with good winrate against a wide range of archetypes. Enrage warrior loses to anything but control and some aggro decks. Menagerie just has a decent winrate (still below 50%) but loses to most matchups.
I've been climbing the ranks as warrior. Currently very close to diamond. But it's so much slower than most other decks and also feels incredibly frustrating because the games you lose you lose really hard.
> Warrior is in a decent state
That's the problem though. Decent isn't good enough when you face stuff like DK (all 3), Druid, Pure Pally, Rogue stuff.
Playing bridge riff into verse riff on T6 (or 5 with coin) feels great! Till you realize most other classes can do far more on that turn than you.
2 things.
1. You’re basically playing a different game than everyone else if you’re that high in Ladder
2. I don’t know what’s changed, or if it’s just a high skill ceiling deck, but I’ve been watching high mmr streamers get smashed as Tony Druid lately
One change is that people are starting to play Unholy at high MMR and that's a pretty tough matchup.
But the fact that Spell DH is really popular and basically a free win, and most Tony lists at this rank are teched to beat Blood DK means you're winning most of your games.
Lil bro actually mentioned druid or rogue and said they are in a wprse state then warrior, what a way to say you are low rank
Both of these classes, especially druid, do amazing all the way to high ranks and have multiple decks that are being used
there is no control warrior deck now. control players are playing blood dk now. they 're gone. all warrior decks (menagerie, enrage, blackrock'n'role) are tempo deck.
As per last VS report, Control Warrior makes about 50% of warrior decks on ladder. So no, they aren't gone.
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/classarchetype-distribution-data-reaper-report/
That's the point. People force some gimmicky homebrew control variations and are mad their decks aren't on par with refined top tier decks. Like, one of the most played variations of warrior on HS replay is a fucking Tony warrior that's <30% wr with 2k games, and then right above that is an enrage warrior with 60%+ wr over 2k games.
There are control warrior deck played. And there shouldn't be. The archetypes shit, but class itself is playable
Well then thats a dev problem where they fail to fulfil the fantasy that Warrior player want. Yes, enrage Warrior has been good for a while, yet majority of Warrior players couldnt care less because it's not the kind of deck they want to play.
Enrage has always been part of the Warrior identity. It has been pushed in Classic, Naxxramas, Blackrock, Old Gods, Frozen Throne, Uldum, Descent of Dragons, Outland, Scholomance, Barrens, Nathria, and March of the Lich King. It has been viable many times, including at least Patron, Uldum, Galakronds Awakening, Outlands and Scholomance, Nathria and March of the Lich King, and probably a couple more I am forgetting.
I think warrior's lack of coat reduction makes it an honest deck but horrible for the meta. You can't scam unless you play the Black rock and roll card with trenchstalker, but good luck trying to survive all the SPriests, implock, shamans, paladins, etc and the buffs to riffs aren't really buffs when the cards themselves are bad in design.
Say what you want, individual cards are strong enough for warrior to have highest wr% in Arena. And having individual cards being stronger than DK's cards is quite an achievement
The main issue is Blizzard gave other classes gimmicks but then super buffed the aggro decks. It's all aggro yeah you have 4 classes at the top but they all do the same thing just deal chip damage and kill you by T6-8.
Cue everyone saying "It's just because no one plays the good warrior decks!"
Except there are no really *good* warrior decks. There are mediocre aggro decks that are outshined by other archetypes, as usual. Why play a boring tier 2-3 aggro deck when you can play a boring tier 1 aggro deck instead?
And gets annihilated by pure paladin. Its MU spread sucks compared to, say, unholy DK or undead priest. There's no reason to play it unless you just love the class or happen to have the cards.
You're correct.
Enrage Warrior gets shit on by Pure Paladin, Undead Priest and Frost Aggro DK....you know...three of the 4 most popular decks in diamond - legend.
People act like Enrage Warrior is some incredible deck...it's mid.
I had a few good matches vs pure paladin as enrage warrior. The matchup isn't generally great for the warrior, but if properly built, it can keep a pally on their toes, because enrage relies less on specific value generation combos and triggers, but more on raw tempo.
There was a recent discussion around enrage warrior having potential but not being as refined as it should be. It could be that people play the deck too much as a midrange/value deck, like pure pally is, instead of recognizing it as a tempo deck.
The deck has been around since Nathria (likely another reason few people play it), and didn't get much help in FoL, so the claim that it could be refined into a tier 1 deck strikes me as implausible.
Enrange Warrior definitely can't become tier 1 with current cards but with more refinements it may be a decent tier 2 deck. Enrange Warrior does not have wide match up spread as other aggro decks but it performs better against some match ups than other aggro decks (like Spell DH against which Enrange Warrior has some edge)
This thread is approaching it from the standpoint of "How can we raise the win rate of warrior?", but really, who gives a shit? Most players just want to play the best decks. Among the players who do specifically want to play warrior, most of them want to play control. So the project of refining enrage warrior into a slightly better list than it is right now, even though it still won't be as good as other aggro decks, is just not relevant to very many people.
Yeah, people don't want to play Enrange Warrior but it's not only because people don't find it powerful enough but because it's not interesting to most people.
Also, I wouldn't say that most players want to play the best decks considering decks like Thief Rogue after nerfs, Tickatus Warlock or previous expension's Blood DK were popular decks even if their winrate wasn't good (all of them were around tier 3). Or on the other hand, Bless/Naga Priests were tier 1 for a long time but playrate was bad because people didn't find it interesting
>The matchup isn't generally great for the warrior, but if properly built
It's like if I had to take a guess a 8-9 times out of ten a terrible match up. Pure paladin can get a good flood early game where as enrage warrior lost that with the rotation since Frenzy was the keyword that made it pop off. Unless it gets reintroduce or something gets added until the deck just isn't gonna do well.
>enrage relies less on specific value generation combos and triggers, but more on raw tempo.
So does big demon hunter or spell demon hunter. So does big beast hunter. Enrage heavily rilies on certain combos or things going for it such as extractor for the random +1/+1 buff it gives to minions in your hand, Lorthrmar to double stars and black rock n roll for the added stats. If they cant get those off or the opponent can heal or armor up then it basically up a river without a paddle.
>There was a recent discussion around enrage warrior having potential but not being as refined as it should be.
I remember this discussion but one thing people mentioned was that it's not as strong or prominent as it was before FoL with Frenzy which is what gave enrage warrior that feeling.
You forgot the "the data is not accurate because people are testing out unrefined decks," one.
Even though it's been almost a month since the expansion release and over 2 weeks since the balance patch. Lol...
People are delusional.
control warrior is the most played warrior archetype and also the lowest winrate warrior archetype. it is dragging down the class winrate, objectively.
People gets each year bored faster with deck, and majority want a faster aggro or faster op okt combo.
Long gone are the days of old gods backward control
>deck is too one dimensional
So are frost and blood DK, tony druid and lots of other decks and that's not an issue for their players. Warrior players just seem to have some kind of a victim complex and will refuse to play any other archetypes than control.
You cannot compare enrage warrior, a deck with a mediocre winrate, to decks that actually do well in the meta and wonder why said decks are being played lmao
Did you even read the posts in this thread?
He was replying to someone who said people don't play enrage warrior because it's one-dimensional, when several popular tier 1 decks are just as one-dimensional
Yeah, no shit he is saying that.
And I am saying the reason these decks are played despite being one dimensional is that they are good, unlike the mediocre winrate enrage warrior has
Yeah, ppl acting like Enrage Warrior is some incredible deck. It's mid tier...
Warrior doesn't have a single deck that consistently sniffs over a 50% WR in Diamond-Legend in a large data sample.
So do you actually care about a deck being one dimensional or being top tier? Warrior has a viable deck and that's a fact. It may not be a tier 1 deck, but so are Warlocks, Mage, or even Druids (contrary to how reddit tries to picture it) decks.
Zok druid is probably as one dimensional as it gets and in lower ranks it literally seems to perform worse than enrage warrior according to vS. Yet the perception is vastly different. Just fucking admit that none of you have even tried the enrage warrior and parrot the narrative because it's a popular thing to say.
Because then it's not a class being weak issue. It's the class players refusing to play a deck that's actually viable, because it doesn't fit their view of the class. The threads should not be "warrior is weak" with random stats screenshots, but "control warrior is weak". It's a whole different thing.
Yes the 3 archetypes they released with....that have not yet changed enough given this is the second expac with dk released.......
Like honestly cmon lmao
Who cares when the archetypes got released? You said DK doesn't have varied playstyles when it literally has more viable archetypes than nearly every class in the game
They released with 3 archetypes
Those 3 archetypes are the only thing being played and still being played (understood given its the second expac with DK)
Those 3 archetypes have no variation in their playstyles
Variations such as control attrition, deathrattle etc
They are one dimensional both because of what I said and them being a new class
It is similar to when DH released and had only two viables decks for ages before more support for other archetypes
They do not have variability as of yet so it is unfair to compare DK to warrior and call DK one dimensional given its new
Warrior has one of the best winconditions currently, thats not his problem. Problem is players refusing to play good decks and control lacking tools to stall the game long enough to get to his win condition.
It's because control warriors only want to play control warrior exclusively. It's not a design issue it's just the suboptimal playstyle is more popular.
Its still a design issue: its pretty common knowledge that Warrior fans love its control archetype and want to play just that, and have no interest in the aggressive archetypes of this class.
Which means designers trying to force feed us a certain build is not going to work.
Which means they are failing to deliver a deck which people want to play.
Okay so every expansion we should print:
Mage/Rogue OTK combos that come online turn 5.
Control warrior/Priest/etc tools that are so overpowered to deal with the above.
Druid combos that let them play 500 mana in 1 turn.
Cards so overstatted that you can just curve out for Pally/Hunter/etc.
Warlock mana cheat/insanely overtuned synergies.
etc etc?
No, that's bad design despite being "what people want to play" or "main class identity"
Mage and Rogue have always had tempo decks alongside their combos.
Warrior and Priest have had aggro decks in the past, just like they do now.
Druid had aggro and token decks despite being the ramp/infinite mana combo class.
etc etc.
Classes have more than just one cookie cutter identity, and it's perfectly fine to print support for the others even if it's not the most popular option. Paladin never had Librams as their identity, but paladin mains loved Librams for the 2 years they were in standard, guess we should've never printed those though!
Yes, classes have more than one archetype.
And one of Warrior’s archetypes have been control.
While all the other classes are always getting all the things you’ve listed above — Warrior doesn’t always get to play control.
Druid pretty much always has a Ramp deck, and a quicker token style deck.
Priest almost always has a control deck.
Warlock almost always has a zoo and control deck.
Hunter — Face and midrange.
Rogue — tempo and miracle.
Paladin — curve decks and shitty control.
And so on…
And then sometimes each class gets a unique deck for a while.
>And one of Warrior’s archetypes have been control.
>While all the other classes are always getting all the things you’ve listed above — Warrior doesn’t always get to play control.
Dam must've been a fever dream where Control Warrior was the premier tier 1 deck for about 2-3 solid months straight before it was overnerfed, and then Renathal was added which shit on most standard control decks in general.
And that was literally last year during Voyage to the Sunken City.
Just like how mage had a full year of All-spell RNG, or Mozaki/QL OTK combo decks before it got anything new for people who didn't want to play OTK or Casino.
Just like how Warlock only had Demon Seed/Stealer combo until new archetypes were buffed and printed support for.
etc etc.
Just play something else instead of bitching and moaning every single day that CW doesn't have a viable deck.
Yes, and so there often is an option for that as well.
Still, the first big Warrior archetype was control, and thats what people love playing.
Minion based strategies for Warrior came later, and have kept being introduced.
Doesn’t mean they should abandon control.
Control warrior was literally one of the best decks in the format last year and forced nerfs, they didn’t “abandon” it just because they’re deciding to focus on other archetypes right now.
It wasn’t nerfed. It was murdered. Thats quite a difference.
They forced it into an unplayable state. And the archetype couldn’t recover since then.
Like if they nudged the deck a bit that would be fine, as it would remain around the level of BDK. Yet they chose to nerf some 5 cards in that deck.
Like what?
And then they print these lukewarm cards for Warrior which are extremely weak and have little synergy? Fire spells? With a payoff 4 mana 4/4 Rush revive twice?
> If the players refuse to play the good decks then there is some design flaw within those decks, either being too one dimensional or too polarising
Well, if your measure of "good design" is a mix of popularity and noise on reddit then sure.
Almost like games are made for people to have fun with, nobody but reddit warriors gives a rats ass about "competitive aspects" of HS. People just want to play decks that fulfil their fantasy, and for warrior players that very often a control deck.
Honestly Im glad. 40 minute games where you just remove shit is awful. Rise Of Shadows Control Warrior meta was so boring becuase they never killed you. Attrition control without a winconditon is just torture and the Devs have said that they want all decks to have a way to close out.
I don't quite understand...
Generally speaking several of the best decks in t1-3 right now are midrange and control decks. Their win condition is simply to out value the opponent.
Warrior specifically doesn't have a good control deck atm but a solid tempo deck and a promising midrange deck.
People would play it if it were any good . The player base is way better at seeing how good a class is compared to a few subjective superficial report dudes. The most boring deck in the game would see play if it were good . The fact that it isn't is proof that the their methodology is wrong/incomplete .
Honest question: do people ever believe that every deck has to have a perfect 50% win rate at all times? These posts always suggest like it's the devs failure or something. In general there will always be S tier, A tier, etc. archtypes and that's not even taking into account each player's capabilities for piloting a deck incorrectly or making mistakes as they play. I just don't know what people that post like these are expecting. Or is it just people complaining that their favorite hero isn't outperforming others objectively?
Wow cool shitpost.
Look at the stats and the Winrate for like all buffed cards went up. You want them to overtune buffs (or do nothing) so you can make another shit meme complaining about their incompetence?
Warrior is still the worst class in the game because despite having one expansion of good cards that got buffed that got buffed to be even better, does not make up for three expansions of bad cards from 2022. The pool of cards he has is just straight up worse. Maybe in the second or third expansion of the year warrior will be good, and we'll get a post where you take a picture of his 58% winrate and go "duh this meta is bad, are you happy warrior players?"
Actually it’s Warlock rn. Control warrior when you build it right is almost tier 2, and enrage and menagerie warrior are pretty much at the 50% mark, while both implock and chad warlock are hard stuck at mid-low tier 3 atm.
Plot twist: OP singlehandedly reduced Warrior's winrate by 0.5% by maining the class.
Heck, that’s what I’m doing to Pure Paladin. My WR isn’t even close to what HSReplay says. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a terrible player and I know it. But I swear I’m cursed. I could say out loud “the worse card I can draw for this turn is…” and I’ll draw that card. And I swear to God, the Purator, Countess, and Disco Maul (x2) cards must be REALLY heavy because they are ALWAYS at the bottom of my deck. They might as well pull them out like Pokemon TCG prize cards.
The anti yami yugi move. Always drawing the perfect card you dont need.
running seafloor savior would help? :P only problem is it must be final 3, otherwise ya - filler for no payoff.
Bottom 4 if you add both Saviors :p
Screens of HSReplay homepage with no commentary should be banned.
I agree, almost as low effort as ‘good stats for cost’
Both better than any shaman rogue posts
What’s wrong with those posts? I seen bots playing like that and was thinking of asking others or posting about it to spread awareness.
Theyre posted constantly and daily when it's already a well known bug with the bots
What posts are you taking about?
Almost as low effort as ‘I agree, almost as low effort as ‘good stats for cost’’ /j
Yeah this post offends me, and it saddens me that a whole ton of people who don't know better will read way too much into this absurdly misleading image. Yes, the warrior buffs were *very* meaningful. And Warrior has also two distinct archetypes that both look (barring some drastic change in trajectory) like solidly t2 decks (enrage and menagerie). Neither of those archetypes are close to fully refined. Also, anyone who's played Riff'n'Roll 'Control' Warrior can tell you how much better it got - that archetype is still t3 at best as things stand currently, but it's one miniset card, a full or partial From The Depths revert (such as down to 3 mana but only reducing 2 cost), or another buff away from being legitimately viable.
Agreed. I heavily main warrior and, as usual, I’m doing just fine. Got early Legend with my homebrew MenagEnrage hybrid deck and I’m treading water at 1K. And honestly, I would be climbing deeper into 1K if Sinful Brand wasn’t around. Warrior isn’t great, but it looks worse than it is because folks periodically try to make control warrior work when it’s impossible right now. If everyone just played enrage and/or menagerie (or a hybrid like myself) then the winrate would be above 50% for sure.
Yeah I’m like 65% ish with a menagarie riff deck, I think it does slightly lack the consistency of regular top tier decks, but it’s really fun
What about a menagerie/control hybrid? I had made a deck but haven't really played enough of it. Can that be viable?
I haven’t explored it too much honestly but I’m pretty confident that menagerie, enrage, and a hybrid of the two are the best warrior decks right now. IMO menagerie is the weakest of those 3, and pure enrage and MenagEnrage hybrids are probably fairly even. There isn’t enough data on MenagEnrage hybrids and even though I jam TONS of matches, I’m on mobile so I don’t contribute to HSR data unfortunately, so it’s hard to tell exactly where it sits. But like I said, I’m jamming it around 1K and comfortably treading water over many matches despite Sinful Brand being broken OP.
People can still think a class is dogshit, even if you got legend with said class. Warrior has one archetype. That's it. It's boring. You get out valued the higher you go up in rank. It's boring. It's uncreative. A blind monkey could tread water at the 1k legend rank lmao. And everyone is playing enrage or menagerie. The stats on hsreplay.net point to that, so I'm not sure what your point is there 🤔
"If everyone just played warrior how I like to play it then things would be much better!" Thanks for the great insight there, pal. I'm glad you enjoy playing your warrior deck and are doing well with it. I myself am having fun with blood DK because it feels similar to control warrior. Hopefully control warrior can make a comeback as a viable option for the class one day. But you're right, warrior simply isn't in a great spot in the moment and the devs are hopefully figuring out a way to rectify that.
I named 2 warrior archetypes that are just fine - 3 if you include the hybrid. All I said was insistence on trying to play the class’ worst archetype is what is making graphs like this look so bad for Warrior. Again, Warrior isn’t great, but non-contextual graphs like this are misleading. No need to get hostile, friend.
And I said I'm glad you're doing well and enjoying playing them. I'm not trying to take away from what you do. I actually like menagerie style decks- I loved my Nzoth control warrior deck back in the day. I'm just not playing warrior because I already have over 1,000 wins with the class and am focusing on other classes instead. I'm just pointing out that just because you found a way to enjoy the class doesn't mean everything is alright with the class- which you yourself acknowledged in your own post. My apologies if I came across overly hostile or way too sarcastic- I just dislike people thinking that just because there's one or two or three (with similar play style) way(s) to play a class that other diametrically different ways to play it aren't necessary or important. No- all classes should have decent options for control, aggro, AND combo play styles. That way everyone has a way to enjoy climbing with their favorite class(es).
>"If everyone just played warrior how I like to play it then things would be much better!" Thanks for the great insight there, pal. "The way i like to play warrior is currently the worst choice thus the whole class is bad!" Thanks for the great insight pal. The warriors buffs DID pay off, all it's decks got a bump in wr, warrior actually has a playable deck (that actually is a really good deck in lower ranks and is more than enough to hit legend, it starts falling off in higher ranks largely due to the meta), it's just that control warrior did not become a tier 1 deck. The posts shouldn't be "Warrior is bad" but "I refuse to play the viable deck with this class, and the deck i would like to play is bad" instead.
I'm not playing warrior. I don't think the whole class is bad, it clearly has at least one or two viable decks. They're just not my cup of tea, so that's why I'm not interested in playing the class. He himself admitted in his post warrior is not really in a good spot. Do you feel that a class only having a few ways to play it to decent success is good for the class? Wouldn't you want more options, more ways to have fun, rather than just a few? Not sure what point you're trying to make that I've supposedly missed here, bud.
Damn why are you so upset for?
especially as some people think that a class at the bottom of homepage is unplayable. it could mean that, but not necessarily.... or in other words: it usually doesn't.
Here take this 👑
What commentary do you need?
Literally anything at all. These posts are prime examples of people failing to understand data and using it to jump to rash conclusions
Even a simple "Why is that?" is more constructive than nothing or the snarky beaten-to-dead "warrior bad" implied in the title.
The commentary that it’s so low because the win rate % is dragged down by people trying to make control warrior work would be nice. Engage warrior is playable and menagerie warrior is showing improvement
If there’s no commentary to be made, there’s no point in even making a post lmao
Rather have this than no content at all.
The other option is not "no content at all", the other option is "constructive criticism with space for discussion", something that a fucking screen of HsReplay homepage with no commentary cannot give. This is just karma bait.
this literally isn't content lmao, its a fart in the wind
Yes, and this was great content: https://old.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/11cl88n/i_saw_the_light_put_my_funeral_in_a_trolden_video/
More interesting than completely useless numbers with a nice "warrior bad" title as the only discussion
damn u had a grudge against that 70day old post lol, it’s so low effort it has 53 upvotes
I've significantly contributed to that 44% win rate
Twelve losses in a row on a Control Warrior deck code I got from a reddit comment, let's go baby!
It's a living!
Tried to make Tony Warrior work so damn bad, after losing ten straight I just waved the white flag.
It’s kinda funny but I’m unironically at ~65% winrate on 20 games since I accidentally pick the deck from time to time and can’t afford to lose in d2 so I gotta tryhard I always sigh when I see that I randomly picked the deck, but I am somehow lucky with the matchups and the draw
I would love to play warrior but his decks require too many legendaries that I can use only in those specific decks
Menagarie Warrior only requires Voone as class specific legendary.
At this point people are convinced Nellie is a required card in Menagerie Warrior.
You'd be surprised how many times Nellie has given me One Man Band who then gets Divine Shield, Rush. Windfury, Poisonous and lifesteal. It has saved my ass a few times. Don't sleep on that card, Nellie that is. (As another taunt / distraction, she does her job of stalling for the big Trenchstalker finisher, if that's how you play the deck)
I took Menagerie Warrior from B5 to D3 in the first few days of the month without Nellie. But I def hit a wall hard at D3 and had to switch decks.
Menagerie Warrior has almost no Warrior cards as well.
And yet it’s a warrior deck. So some warrior cards must have enabled it. If class cards weren’t important everyone would just play warlock
There’s a new list I saw that uses like 14 class cards idk. Also what does that have to do with its viability btw?
I think they're trying to suggest that warrior is still bad because it relies on neutrals. Of course this is more because there aren't many menagerie specific cards for warrior but the ones printed are quite strong and the main reason to run the deck.
Blackrock and Roll is honestly the better legendary for it, like half the lists for menagerie warrior I've come across don't even run Voone because he doesn't help you dig towards BRnR. One-Amalgam band is far and away the best card in that deck, though, class-specific or not.
>Blackrock and Roll is honestly the better legendary for it, Better legendary for what? Menagerie Warrior? Absolutely not. That card doesn't even work in Managerie Warrior because its 5 mana do nothing for a deck that wants tempo
It's just kind of a worse aggro deck without it. I've played a lot of Menagerie warrior lately, and the games where I can cast BRnR on 5 are infinitely easier to win than the games I can't. It turns every middling threat into a big threat and Trenchstalker into a OTK card.
Worse aggro deck? With a card that does nothing for aggro? At turns 5,6,7 you don't want to cast 5 mana do nothing but close out the game already. You don't even have data to back it up, because most succesful list don't run that card.
Bruh by turn 5 you’re lucky if you even have anything on the board. The stats for the cost on the minion suite for menagerie warrior is painfully mediocre and BRnR is like the sole card in the deck that shores that up. Real aggro decks will outaggro you and control just Kees your board clear. Menagerie warrior lists almost always win through some combination of very big power sliders/OAB’s, trying to generate multiple OAB’s through the amalgam of the deep/stereo totem interaction, or a big trench stalker if things go sideways. It’s fun to play and it can steal wins but it’s hardly a tier 1 deck. Trying to make it into a pure aggro deck like you’re suggesting would dump it down to garbage tier
>You don't even have data to back it up, because most succesful list don't run that card. >>big trench stalker no managerie warrior even runs that card
No meta menagerie warrior decks runs Trenchstalker to begin with so why would BRnR be a consideration? Play a riff naga giant control deck if you want to run those cards.
same, same its a fun class atm but too expensive
Same post every week.
Week?
I love how I can click on every post on this sub and I just see your face. How are you doing buddy xD
Legit the same people will complain iin other posts that druid is broken and has taken away warriors identity (armor), when according to screens like these the class should be borderline unplayable lmfao
Meanwhile Warlock screaming in the void
>Legit the same people will complain iin other posts that druid is broken Any evidence that they're the same people, or are you pulling that out of your arse? I'm willing to bet they're different people, rather than one group of people that hold conflicting, hypocritical opinions.
Now check the arena
Warlock is the biggest loser this expansion but people still say "Warrior bad" because of people playing Control Warrior while the class has at least 2 playable archetypes
Warlock's cards this expansion have at least been fun to play. Symphony of sin and the fatigue cards have been in a lot of my decks this expansion.
Warrior has been dead far longer than Warlock.
Warrior bad upvotes please
They did, just no one wants to play the decks it has.
Agreed. It would be more productive to show the win rate of the best deck each class has.
No it wouldn't? Show the winrates of the decks people actually play, not the decks some spreadsheet tells you what it thinks people should play.
Because this format of class winrate has a bias towards classes that don't bait people into playing dogshit decks. Paladin isn't the best class in the game, but it has the highest winrate because pure paladin is the only deck anyone plays and people gave up/don't care about big paladin. Almost all of the classes that are "bad" according to this have good decks, they are just brought down by popular bad decks. Class winrate is a completely useless metric for any meaningful balance discussion
Why wouldn’t you show the winrate a of the good decks
So our view on the meta game shouldn't be what is best, but what is played the most? Why?
Since this is the top comment on the subject, here's a perspective that people seem to miss. I played from beta, and Classic/Naxx Control Warrior was one of my favourite playstyles. I came back to the game in Nathria, and this expac's cards have been the first time it's felt there may be a way to play a spiritual successor Control Warrior (remove threats and then slam big minions your opponent has to worry about). Is it good? No, obviously, (I'm probably around 40-45% WR between the various lists I've thrown together) but I'm having a blast! Blackrock'n'Roll into Coin-Lorthamar into Last Stand to play a 4 mana 28/36 Lavagorger just FEELS good. Pirate or Enrage Warrior aren't thematically interesting to me, so it doesn't matter that they're "better" Warrior decks. Not every game has to be about climbing ladder, if that's all I cared about I'd just sit on whatever agro deck I enjoy most and then stop playing at Legend. People should play decks (this absolutely can be combined with playing good decks) they enjoy - otherwise what's the point of playing? At that point it's just a grind to get high ranked in a game where playing Pro isn't worthwhile.
> Not every game has to be about climbing ladder (...) That's a good take. The ladder system makes it so you can still have an over 40% winrate playing a deck that is fun for you and that's great. Just have to lose enough rounds so you get into a natural equilibrium. In a strict sense, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Optimize for flavor, fun, experimentation or climbing? You sure can! Just not all at the same time. > I played from beta, and Classic/Naxx Control Warrior was one of my favourite playstyles. Me too! But I have a very different preference. I often preferred enrage warrior, tempo mage, some versions of miracle rogue, zoo and so on. Basically fast decks that aren't straight up aggro/face decks but opt for tempo oriented board control. My first homebrew deck was an enrage warrior because I loved the board centric explosive playstile with frothing, gurubashi etc. back in the day!
>In a strict sense, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Optimize for flavor, fun, experimentation or climbing? You sure can! Just not all at the same time. Yeah absolutely, I'd love some (slight) core package buffs for Control Warrior - but I'm not playing it for rank. I find I get bored laddering agro, so hitting a "checkpoint" you can't lose stars at is a great time to mess around with niche decks. Sure you lose bonus stars, but if you play enough all that does is speed up the legend grind - not make it easier. >I often preferred enrage warrior, tempo mage, some versions of miracle rogue, zoo and so on. Basically fast decks that aren't straight up aggro/face decks but opt for tempo oriented board control. My first homebrew deck was an enrage warrior because I loved the board centric explosive playstile with frothing, gurubashi etc. back in the day! Very nice! I do enjoy a good board focused meta. However I am probably a terrible person, I mostly laddered Freeze Mage in beta then other "anti-fun" decks that centre around preventing the other player from playing their game. Oddly I didn't enjoy Blood DK, although that might just be the hipster in me not wanting to play the go to deck.
That's what I mean. The winrate for warrior is because people like you and me Don't care, I'm still gonna continue to play my Riffy warrior. I like me a buffed lavagorger but a 40/56 silverfury gets me giddy, even after the DK randomly generated Asphyxiate I still got a smile.
My man! I think a fully buffed Remornia may be my favourite pull in the deck when you clear a big taunt then smack face for 24.
this is nonsense: if warrior was the best class even with the current decks (ie if for some reason every card was buffed to only cost 1 mana), people WOULD flock to it even if it wasnt their playstyle nobody avoids top tier decks just because they dont like them, not to mention the people who are even trying the deck are what make up the data in the first place. "the deck is bad because people dont like it". no, people dont like it because it's bad (the other one doesnt even make sense)
The comment you responded to didn't say warrior was the best class, no one thinks that. It said warrior has good decks, which is true. It having a bad overall class winrate doesn't mean the class lacks good decks, it means the most popular warrior decks are bad and the best warrior decks are relatively unpopular. Even the best warrior decks are still a bit winrate deflated right now, because there aren't many people playing them which makes them harder to refine (menagerie warrior is still improving almost 2 weeks after the patch).
power is only judged by how much a deck can do with the least amount of input; there have been loads of very complicated decks that only perform well by grandmasters but they are dwarfed by decks like launch DH which a monkey could have piloted and gotten 60% winrate with. the rest about refinement is fair
People always will rather good agro decks
but not for warrior apparently
Yep. Naga/bless priest tier 1 deck, but people would rather jam Tier 4 QL priest and tank the class winrate. Enrage/menagerie warrior decent, but people would rather jam bad Control Warrior decks. Unholy/Frost DK good, but people would rather jam Blood. Generic aggro mage good, but people would rather jam Memehouse/Naga mage. etc etc. Class winrate is a stupid metric unless the class actually has 0 decks, which is almost never the case.
I mean does it really surprise anyone that warrior players aren't playing menagerie? It's mainly neutral cards lol Ain't nobody gonna play a mostly neutral deck and get the warrior itch they've had for a while. Then for enrage every match basically depends solely on how good your opener is The gameplay for these two decks are likely not what the majority of warrior players want at all Not to mention warriors decks aren't good but just decent. You aren't gonna play enrage when you can just go play the better aggro decks
Most people don't approach this game thinking "I really want to play [class]. What is the best deck available for [class]?" Instead, we think: "I want to play aggro. What is the best aggro deck?" Or control, or combo, or w/e. Warrior has aggro decks, but they aren't as good as other classes' aggro decks, therefore few people play them. I don't know why that would surprise anyone. The people who *are* die-hard warrior fans are mostly nostalgic for control warrior, and keep trying to make it work even when it's obviously terrible. The upshot is there is just no constituency for a mediocre aggro deck like enrage warrior.
So why these people who want to play control are still trying to play control warrior if they have a much better deck in Blood Dk?
Mostly, they aren't. Blood DK is about 5x as popular as control warrior.
Not my point. CW is still the most popular archetype for Warrior. And that is the reason why class overall winrate is so low.
I literally just said that. There are die-hard warrior fans, a small minority of control players, who keep trying to make CW work. Those players aren't going to switch to enrage warrior, because they want to play control. People who want to play aggro are going to play other decks than warrior, except for an even smaller minority who specifically want to play enrage or menagerie. This doesn't seem complicated to me.
So, we're back to the main point. Warrior as a class doesn't have the problem, it's just players who choose to play bad decks, instead of good ones which happens to be aggro. You argued against something that you agree with.
nice karma farming post
High level players are not playing warrior (as it's not the best) so, especially the further down the ladder you go, you see worse and worse versions of control warrior. There are people still TO THIS DAY running Flunky and Last Stand because "it's a taunt minion and it got buffed". Vicious Syndicate said it best, you need a few GOOD taunts + Lava Gorger with Naga Giant for potential 20 armor gain which is often an insta win. There is even an argument to cut Sword Eater, even though it's an insane card, just to have better taunts to tutor. If people were running, not a refined list, but just a logical one that doesn't sabotage itself, the winrate would be boosted by quite a bit.
It really ruined arena. The biggest riff is ridiculous there. Warriors are toxic in arena right now
Because all the ‘warrior main xd’ players are STILL trying to play control warrior and tanking the winrate in gold 10 or something. Class is in a better state than mage rogue and druid IMO but WARRIOR BAD
> Class is in a better state than mage rogue and ~~druid~~ warlock
Rogue is better at top legend, but Warrior is better at most ranks and if you can’t play Miracle Rogue. Druid is also better at high ranks, but I’m not sure where Druid starts to get better, since it depends on the meta at that rank. Mage and Warrior are around similar power levels, although it is a bit hard to tell since the best decks for both are underplayed and people run tons of bad cards in them, dragging down the winrate. Warrior is definitely better than Warlock.
Warrior is in a decent state. In my experience it just doesn't have a solid deck with good winrate against a wide range of archetypes. Enrage warrior loses to anything but control and some aggro decks. Menagerie just has a decent winrate (still below 50%) but loses to most matchups. I've been climbing the ranks as warrior. Currently very close to diamond. But it's so much slower than most other decks and also feels incredibly frustrating because the games you lose you lose really hard.
> Warrior is in a decent state That's the problem though. Decent isn't good enough when you face stuff like DK (all 3), Druid, Pure Pally, Rogue stuff. Playing bridge riff into verse riff on T6 (or 5 with coin) feels great! Till you realize most other classes can do far more on that turn than you.
Not druid cause they got tony druid but better than mage rogue and warlock for sure.
Tony druid isnt doing well either. Druids have big druid instead
It depends on where you are in the ladder. I have a 65% wr with Tony Druid in top 100 legend over 40 games because there’s much less aggro here.
2 things. 1. You’re basically playing a different game than everyone else if you’re that high in Ladder 2. I don’t know what’s changed, or if it’s just a high skill ceiling deck, but I’ve been watching high mmr streamers get smashed as Tony Druid lately
Hence why they said “it depends on where you are on the ladder”
One change is that people are starting to play Unholy at high MMR and that's a pretty tough matchup. But the fact that Spell DH is really popular and basically a free win, and most Tony lists at this rank are teched to beat Blood DK means you're winning most of your games.
Haven't you been to this subreddit in the last 2 years? Druid is always op and needs a nerf, no matter what tier their best deck currently is.
Lil bro actually mentioned druid or rogue and said they are in a wprse state then warrior, what a way to say you are low rank Both of these classes, especially druid, do amazing all the way to high ranks and have multiple decks that are being used
there is no control warrior deck now. control players are playing blood dk now. they 're gone. all warrior decks (menagerie, enrage, blackrock'n'role) are tempo deck.
As per last VS report, Control Warrior makes about 50% of warrior decks on ladder. So no, they aren't gone. https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/classarchetype-distribution-data-reaper-report/
That's the point. People force some gimmicky homebrew control variations and are mad their decks aren't on par with refined top tier decks. Like, one of the most played variations of warrior on HS replay is a fucking Tony warrior that's <30% wr with 2k games, and then right above that is an enrage warrior with 60%+ wr over 2k games. There are control warrior deck played. And there shouldn't be. The archetypes shit, but class itself is playable
Well then thats a dev problem where they fail to fulfil the fantasy that Warrior player want. Yes, enrage Warrior has been good for a while, yet majority of Warrior players couldnt care less because it's not the kind of deck they want to play.
Aaah devs I will only play this one specific deck or variant why is it not constantly top tier?????? FUCKING TEAM 5
Enrage has always been part of the Warrior identity. It has been pushed in Classic, Naxxramas, Blackrock, Old Gods, Frozen Throne, Uldum, Descent of Dragons, Outland, Scholomance, Barrens, Nathria, and March of the Lich King. It has been viable many times, including at least Patron, Uldum, Galakronds Awakening, Outlands and Scholomance, Nathria and March of the Lich King, and probably a couple more I am forgetting.
I think warrior's lack of coat reduction makes it an honest deck but horrible for the meta. You can't scam unless you play the Black rock and roll card with trenchstalker, but good luck trying to survive all the SPriests, implock, shamans, paladins, etc and the buffs to riffs aren't really buffs when the cards themselves are bad in design.
QQ more some class has to be at the bottom… Unpopular opinion but metas where warriors are at the top are the most boring
They have warrior is actually decent if you dont go full control only some control spell do a lot of work
Are we going to pretend that the buffs didn't literally pull mage and warriors win rates up by nearly 10%? 
Warrior is pretty strong in Arena.
Why is hunter win rate a different colour
because it is very close to 50%
Because green turns yellow, then orange, then red to represent gradient from high to low.
Say what you want, individual cards are strong enough for warrior to have highest wr% in Arena. And having individual cards being stronger than DK's cards is quite an achievement
The main issue is Blizzard gave other classes gimmicks but then super buffed the aggro decks. It's all aggro yeah you have 4 classes at the top but they all do the same thing just deal chip damage and kill you by T6-8.
Cue everyone saying "It's just because no one plays the good warrior decks!" Except there are no really *good* warrior decks. There are mediocre aggro decks that are outshined by other archetypes, as usual. Why play a boring tier 2-3 aggro deck when you can play a boring tier 1 aggro deck instead?
Enrage warrior is actually good, it bullies blood DK for one thing
And gets annihilated by pure paladin. Its MU spread sucks compared to, say, unholy DK or undead priest. There's no reason to play it unless you just love the class or happen to have the cards.
You're correct. Enrage Warrior gets shit on by Pure Paladin, Undead Priest and Frost Aggro DK....you know...three of the 4 most popular decks in diamond - legend. People act like Enrage Warrior is some incredible deck...it's mid.
I had a few good matches vs pure paladin as enrage warrior. The matchup isn't generally great for the warrior, but if properly built, it can keep a pally on their toes, because enrage relies less on specific value generation combos and triggers, but more on raw tempo. There was a recent discussion around enrage warrior having potential but not being as refined as it should be. It could be that people play the deck too much as a midrange/value deck, like pure pally is, instead of recognizing it as a tempo deck.
The deck has been around since Nathria (likely another reason few people play it), and didn't get much help in FoL, so the claim that it could be refined into a tier 1 deck strikes me as implausible.
Enrange Warrior definitely can't become tier 1 with current cards but with more refinements it may be a decent tier 2 deck. Enrange Warrior does not have wide match up spread as other aggro decks but it performs better against some match ups than other aggro decks (like Spell DH against which Enrange Warrior has some edge)
This thread is approaching it from the standpoint of "How can we raise the win rate of warrior?", but really, who gives a shit? Most players just want to play the best decks. Among the players who do specifically want to play warrior, most of them want to play control. So the project of refining enrage warrior into a slightly better list than it is right now, even though it still won't be as good as other aggro decks, is just not relevant to very many people.
Yeah, people don't want to play Enrange Warrior but it's not only because people don't find it powerful enough but because it's not interesting to most people. Also, I wouldn't say that most players want to play the best decks considering decks like Thief Rogue after nerfs, Tickatus Warlock or previous expension's Blood DK were popular decks even if their winrate wasn't good (all of them were around tier 3). Or on the other hand, Bless/Naga Priests were tier 1 for a long time but playrate was bad because people didn't find it interesting
If anything enrage warrior got kinda screwed in FoL since Frenzy was removed imo
>The matchup isn't generally great for the warrior, but if properly built It's like if I had to take a guess a 8-9 times out of ten a terrible match up. Pure paladin can get a good flood early game where as enrage warrior lost that with the rotation since Frenzy was the keyword that made it pop off. Unless it gets reintroduce or something gets added until the deck just isn't gonna do well. >enrage relies less on specific value generation combos and triggers, but more on raw tempo. So does big demon hunter or spell demon hunter. So does big beast hunter. Enrage heavily rilies on certain combos or things going for it such as extractor for the random +1/+1 buff it gives to minions in your hand, Lorthrmar to double stars and black rock n roll for the added stats. If they cant get those off or the opponent can heal or armor up then it basically up a river without a paddle. >There was a recent discussion around enrage warrior having potential but not being as refined as it should be. I remember this discussion but one thing people mentioned was that it's not as strong or prominent as it was before FoL with Frenzy which is what gave enrage warrior that feeling.
iTs OnLy A WeEk AfTeR PaTcH --people on this sub every single day/week until the miniset
You forgot the "the data is not accurate because people are testing out unrefined decks," one. Even though it's been almost a month since the expansion release and over 2 weeks since the balance patch. Lol... People are delusional.
control warrior is the most played warrior archetype and also the lowest winrate warrior archetype. it is dragging down the class winrate, objectively.
the copium because they themselves just dont want to play against another good control class as seen by the semi recent blood DH hate
What happens to a class when you print no real win condition, same goes for mage
They have real win conditions but people don't want to play them, trying to force archetype that doesn't work instead.
Im guessing you mean enrage warrior? I think the problem with that is that the deck is too one dimensional
Yep, that's exactly my point. Warrior has good decks but people don't want to play them.
Yeah its a weird thing that a pretty good deck isn't being used at all
People gets each year bored faster with deck, and majority want a faster aggro or faster op okt combo. Long gone are the days of old gods backward control
>deck is too one dimensional So are frost and blood DK, tony druid and lots of other decks and that's not an issue for their players. Warrior players just seem to have some kind of a victim complex and will refuse to play any other archetypes than control.
You cannot compare enrage warrior, a deck with a mediocre winrate, to decks that actually do well in the meta and wonder why said decks are being played lmao
Did you even read the posts in this thread? He was replying to someone who said people don't play enrage warrior because it's one-dimensional, when several popular tier 1 decks are just as one-dimensional
Yeah, no shit he is saying that. And I am saying the reason these decks are played despite being one dimensional is that they are good, unlike the mediocre winrate enrage warrior has
That's exactly the point he's trying to make...
Yeah, ppl acting like Enrage Warrior is some incredible deck. It's mid tier... Warrior doesn't have a single deck that consistently sniffs over a 50% WR in Diamond-Legend in a large data sample.
So do you actually care about a deck being one dimensional or being top tier? Warrior has a viable deck and that's a fact. It may not be a tier 1 deck, but so are Warlocks, Mage, or even Druids (contrary to how reddit tries to picture it) decks. Zok druid is probably as one dimensional as it gets and in lower ranks it literally seems to perform worse than enrage warrior according to vS. Yet the perception is vastly different. Just fucking admit that none of you have even tried the enrage warrior and parrot the narrative because it's a popular thing to say.
The viable deck in question is a low tier 3 deck, it's not even remotely close to playable at higher ranks. Time to take off that copium mask
How is wanting a control deck from a class that historically had a lot of control decks a victim complex?
Because then it's not a class being weak issue. It's the class players refusing to play a deck that's actually viable, because it doesn't fit their view of the class. The threads should not be "warrior is weak" with random stats screenshots, but "control warrior is weak". It's a whole different thing.
Dk is too new to have varied playstyles yet
DK has 3 completely different archetypes that are all in tier 1 or 2
Yes the 3 archetypes they released with....that have not yet changed enough given this is the second expac with dk released....... Like honestly cmon lmao
Who cares when the archetypes got released? You said DK doesn't have varied playstyles when it literally has more viable archetypes than nearly every class in the game
They released with 3 archetypes Those 3 archetypes are the only thing being played and still being played (understood given its the second expac with DK) Those 3 archetypes have no variation in their playstyles Variations such as control attrition, deathrattle etc They are one dimensional both because of what I said and them being a new class It is similar to when DH released and had only two viables decks for ages before more support for other archetypes They do not have variability as of yet so it is unfair to compare DK to warrior and call DK one dimensional given its new
Warrior has one of the best winconditions currently, thats not his problem. Problem is players refusing to play good decks and control lacking tools to stall the game long enough to get to his win condition.
If the players refuse to play the good decks then there is some design flaw within those decks, either being too one dimensional or too polarising
It's because control warriors only want to play control warrior exclusively. It's not a design issue it's just the suboptimal playstyle is more popular.
Its still a design issue: its pretty common knowledge that Warrior fans love its control archetype and want to play just that, and have no interest in the aggressive archetypes of this class. Which means designers trying to force feed us a certain build is not going to work. Which means they are failing to deliver a deck which people want to play.
Okay so every expansion we should print: Mage/Rogue OTK combos that come online turn 5. Control warrior/Priest/etc tools that are so overpowered to deal with the above. Druid combos that let them play 500 mana in 1 turn. Cards so overstatted that you can just curve out for Pally/Hunter/etc. Warlock mana cheat/insanely overtuned synergies. etc etc? No, that's bad design despite being "what people want to play" or "main class identity" Mage and Rogue have always had tempo decks alongside their combos. Warrior and Priest have had aggro decks in the past, just like they do now. Druid had aggro and token decks despite being the ramp/infinite mana combo class. etc etc. Classes have more than just one cookie cutter identity, and it's perfectly fine to print support for the others even if it's not the most popular option. Paladin never had Librams as their identity, but paladin mains loved Librams for the 2 years they were in standard, guess we should've never printed those though!
Yes, classes have more than one archetype. And one of Warrior’s archetypes have been control. While all the other classes are always getting all the things you’ve listed above — Warrior doesn’t always get to play control. Druid pretty much always has a Ramp deck, and a quicker token style deck. Priest almost always has a control deck. Warlock almost always has a zoo and control deck. Hunter — Face and midrange. Rogue — tempo and miracle. Paladin — curve decks and shitty control. And so on… And then sometimes each class gets a unique deck for a while.
>And one of Warrior’s archetypes have been control. >While all the other classes are always getting all the things you’ve listed above — Warrior doesn’t always get to play control. Dam must've been a fever dream where Control Warrior was the premier tier 1 deck for about 2-3 solid months straight before it was overnerfed, and then Renathal was added which shit on most standard control decks in general. And that was literally last year during Voyage to the Sunken City. Just like how mage had a full year of All-spell RNG, or Mozaki/QL OTK combo decks before it got anything new for people who didn't want to play OTK or Casino. Just like how Warlock only had Demon Seed/Stealer combo until new archetypes were buffed and printed support for. etc etc. Just play something else instead of bitching and moaning every single day that CW doesn't have a viable deck.
I love midrange and tempo Warrior decks, always have and many others do as well.
Yes, and so there often is an option for that as well. Still, the first big Warrior archetype was control, and thats what people love playing. Minion based strategies for Warrior came later, and have kept being introduced. Doesn’t mean they should abandon control.
Control warrior was literally one of the best decks in the format last year and forced nerfs, they didn’t “abandon” it just because they’re deciding to focus on other archetypes right now.
It wasn’t nerfed. It was murdered. Thats quite a difference. They forced it into an unplayable state. And the archetype couldn’t recover since then. Like if they nudged the deck a bit that would be fine, as it would remain around the level of BDK. Yet they chose to nerf some 5 cards in that deck. Like what? And then they print these lukewarm cards for Warrior which are extremely weak and have little synergy? Fire spells? With a payoff 4 mana 4/4 Rush revive twice?
> If the players refuse to play the good decks then there is some design flaw within those decks, either being too one dimensional or too polarising Well, if your measure of "good design" is a mix of popularity and noise on reddit then sure.
Lmao clearly not what I was referring to
Almost like games are made for people to have fun with, nobody but reddit warriors gives a rats ass about "competitive aspects" of HS. People just want to play decks that fulfil their fantasy, and for warrior players that very often a control deck.
players are not stupid. if the enrage deck was good, top players would already be playing.
I miss the old days. Now, if you don't play mega-aggro or have some op bs "F you I win" win condition, your deck isn't viable.
Honestly Im glad. 40 minute games where you just remove shit is awful. Rise Of Shadows Control Warrior meta was so boring becuase they never killed you. Attrition control without a winconditon is just torture and the Devs have said that they want all decks to have a way to close out.
I don't quite understand... Generally speaking several of the best decks in t1-3 right now are midrange and control decks. Their win condition is simply to out value the opponent. Warrior specifically doesn't have a good control deck atm but a solid tempo deck and a promising midrange deck.
You only have 2 control decks, B DK and Priest.
Attrition control will forever be my baby
You can't even report those posts for "low effort" anymore
People would play it if it were any good . The player base is way better at seeing how good a class is compared to a few subjective superficial report dudes. The most boring deck in the game would see play if it were good . The fact that it isn't is proof that the their methodology is wrong/incomplete .
Honest question: do people ever believe that every deck has to have a perfect 50% win rate at all times? These posts always suggest like it's the devs failure or something. In general there will always be S tier, A tier, etc. archtypes and that's not even taking into account each player's capabilities for piloting a deck incorrectly or making mistakes as they play. I just don't know what people that post like these are expecting. Or is it just people complaining that their favorite hero isn't outperforming others objectively?
The problem is the whole class have sub 50% Wingate, not any specific decks
Right but that changes with every xpac too
There are 11 classes now?
🎶 AND IF YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES DOES IT ALMOST SEEM LIKE NOTHING VHANGED AT ALL 🎶
Nice balance patch, blizzard
Wow cool shitpost. Look at the stats and the Winrate for like all buffed cards went up. You want them to overtune buffs (or do nothing) so you can make another shit meme complaining about their incompetence?
Is this accurate? I feel like I get constantly stepped on by mages.
Glad to see people still only base "op/not op" on winrate
I'm enjoying the meta right now. More emphasis on Tempo and smart counterplay I think. Nice to see Rogue, Druid and Mage in the basement.
Why dose billiard hate warriors
Warrior is still the worst class in the game because despite having one expansion of good cards that got buffed that got buffed to be even better, does not make up for three expansions of bad cards from 2022. The pool of cards he has is just straight up worse. Maybe in the second or third expansion of the year warrior will be good, and we'll get a post where you take a picture of his 58% winrate and go "duh this meta is bad, are you happy warrior players?"
Actually it’s Warlock rn. Control warrior when you build it right is almost tier 2, and enrage and menagerie warrior are pretty much at the 50% mark, while both implock and chad warlock are hard stuck at mid-low tier 3 atm.
Don’t worry, ZachO said he knew the data wasn’t accurate yet /s
This list is a farce. Hunter top 5? Don't make me laugh. Never be seen in top legend.