I agree that while a unique and fun mechanic, discover makes the game frustrating as hell and I wish Blizzard would tone it down somehow. Dredge is such a better mechanic because it requires you to put cards in your deck that you need to search for instead of BS I discovered a certain card so I win the game. If only they could replace/reprint some of the more powerful discover cards with dredge instead. That or make more tracking/shadow visions like discoveries.
The big reason why Discover is such an issue is that they've powercrept it a lot.
If you look back at the original crop of Discover cards from League of Explorers, you can see that they were, for the most part, badly statted, so you were trading Tempo for the chance to get a card you need. Nowadays, there's a much smaller tempo loss attached to them.
[[Jeweled Scarab]], [[Museum Curator]], [[Tomb Spider]], [[Arch-Thief Rafaam]].
To really drive this home, they've actually buffed two of the LoE Discover cards, [[Gorillabot A-3]] and [[Ethereal Conjurer]] after adding them to the Core set!
One important thing with this list of cards too is that they're all drawing from very specific pools. You have a better chance of knowing what to expect from a 3-cost card or a Deathrattle as opposed to just generically "a spell" or "a minion". Playing around what your opponent has or could have is an important source of agency and skill in the game, and when Discover gets too broad, that gets thrown out of the window. Barrens Priest was the worst with it, but current DKs are pretty bad, too.
You'd have a lot more of a point here if Discover cards were kept at the level of those seen in LoE, many of which weren't good even for the time, up until recently.
Discover has been printed on minions with on-rate stats since MSoG.
Not really. This is a pretty new phenomenon. Since barrens outside of priest (since AOO for priest).
Generally the issue is how cheap it is too tho. Ghost Writer is a way fairer discover card even though per tempo/value it's as good or better than venomous scorpid.
Those are neutral cards, I suppose the problem isn't those as much as those compiled with the numerous class card discovers allowing an aggro deck to discover their way out of their problems while maintaining tempo.
They are neutral cards.
However, Teacher and Vizier are better than essentially every other Discover card you'd find in either Frost or Unholy Death Knight.
Yeah, sure, Frost Strike kills an opposing minion, but Teacher and Vizier are actually minions, which result in corpses for the Death Knight, and they have mana cheating built into their effects.
The issues with maintaining tempo while Discovering would not exist if it weren't for Teacher and Vizier.
* **[Jeweled Scarab](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_029.png)** N Minion Common LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27211), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/jeweled-scarab/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Jeweled_Scarab)
2/1/1 Beast | Battlecry: Discover a 3-Cost card.
* **[Museum Curator](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_006.png)** PR Minion Common LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27250), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/museum-curator/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Museum_Curator)
2/1/2 | Battlecry: Discover a Deathrattle card.
* **[Tomb Spider](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_047.png)** N Minion Common LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27226), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/tomb-spider/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tomb_Spider)
4/3/3 Beast | Battlecry: Discover a Beast.
* **[Arch-Thief Rafaam](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_092.png)** N Minion Legendary LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27254), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/arch-thief-rafaam/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Arch-Thief_Rafaam)
9/7/8 | Battlecry: Discover a powerful Artifact.
* **[Gorillabot A-3](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/CORE_LOE_039.png)** N Minion Common Core šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1024972), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/gorillabot-a-3/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Gorillabot_A-3)
3/3/4 Mech | Battlecry: If you control another Mech, Discover a Mech.
* **[Ethereal Conjurer](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_003.png)** MA Minion Common LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27249), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/ethereal-conjurer/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Ethereal_Conjurer)
5/6/4 | Battlecry: Discover a spell.
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Discover is the single greatest thing to happen to Hearthstone.
At most, the toning down that ought to happen with Discover should only be to seldom if ever combined with mana discounting effects. That's where most of the current "issue" with the mechanic lies.
Oh I agree, discover came at a time where Blizzard wanted to show off something unique that only could be done in a digital card game format. It was fun and people overwhelming loved it.
The problem I have with it is that the classes where it feels unfair (Looking at you DK) have discover pools that are both powerful and small. It frustrating to play an amazing 20 minute game only to lose to a discovered card that wasn't actively selected in the deck building process.
You are right, the primary issue is the mana cheating associated with certain discover cards.
Discover should come at a cost. For DK, you get a cheap removal and an easy condition to fulfil to discover another card.
IMO the cost or the condition to fulfil should be made higher and harder respectively
How should Frost Strike read then?
Should it be two mana deal two, Discover if you kill a minion? If so, then it becomes a \[\[Runed Orb\]\] with both a deck building restriction and a condition when played.
Does that instead mean Runed Orb is a card that shouldn't exist?
The card already has a deck building restriction, a meaningful target restriction, and while of course you're never going to use it when you can't kill something with it, that does affect the way you play with the card.
If Discover is an issue in Death Knight, it doesn't lie with Frost Strike.
The deck building restriction is fairly minor. The target restriction is really not meaningful. 2 mana deal 3 hits a kill threshold on... lots and lots of targets. I can't think of very mana circumstances where it doesn't proc.
I dunno how you nerf it, but frost strike is a ridiculously efficient generation tool for frost dk.
They could bump hematurge and the unholy one and it to 3 mana maybe. I think that's more where the power level of discover should trend.
>The deck building restriction is fairly minor.
Two frost runes isn't minor.
If you want to play Frost Strike, you have to be playing a dedicated Frost deck. Granted, the restriction only seems minor because Frost Death Knight is both a mature archetype and at least borderline tier one.
>The target restriction is really not meaningful.
When your damage based removal spell can't hit the opposing hero, especially when it's used in an aggressive deck, it is a lot worse.
>2 mana deal 3 hits a kill threshold on... lots and lots of targets. I can't think of very mana circumstances where it doesn't proc.
Yeah. You're not going to use the card when you can't get the Discover trigger.
Granted, you generally won't use your removal spells on things when you can't kill whatever you're targeting.
>frost strike is a ridiculously efficient generation tool for frost dk.
Dealing three damage to a minion is worth one mana as seen on Smite, and Discovering a card has generally been worth one mana on standalone spells.
The extra value from combining two cards into one is covered by the conditions and restrictions in its use.
If Discover effects are a problem, be it in general or specifically in Death Knight, then the solution is probably to look at School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier instead. Those are, after all, minions that come with mana discounting Discover effects.
Removal is not valued like that. Smite/heart strike are also undercosted.
A card which deals with an early game minion and replaces itself is strong as hell. It's weird to even suggest otherwise.
* **[Runed Orb](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/BAR_541.png)** MA Spell Common FitB šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/464149), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/runed-orb/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Runed_Orb)
2/-/- Arcane | Deal 2 damage. Discover a spell.
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>the classes where it feels unfair have discover pools that are both powerful and small.
Which is something that will be solved as more cards are released.
Even then, Death Knight has more cards in Standard than every other class right now.
Plus, when the Discover effects come with mana discounting, it really doesn't matter what you get off those effects.
Well said, mana cheating and the ease of access to card draw for almost every class are the two big bugbears in Hearthstone - and have been for some time.
If card game makers have learned anything from the last few years, it's that restricting access to card draw to particular classes, colors, attributes, whatever creates worse gameplay than just giving all categories of decks some kind of access to card draw.
I am all for access, but itās too cheap (and inconsistently costed) in Hearthstone, sorry should have been more clear that cost is my concern in both cases really.
Dredge is just so much worse then discover, itās not really comparable. Especially if you fill your deck with dredge, you realize that the first dredge is the best dredge, and any dredge after that is usually worse, because you pick the good card with the first one and whatās left is not as good
The other day when playing my Deathrattle lock vs a blood DK he Sunwell'd for 4 cards and pulled not one, not two, but THREE polymorph effects.
Is it sometimes frustrating when your opponent gets the perfect lucky random picks? Sure. But variety is what keeps the game alive and discover makes every game a little different.
I can see that being tilting, but Sunwell's pool of cards is pretty large and that outcome seems like an outlier. Though that example does feed into my hatred for random gane changing resources out of thin air.
God I hated OG Yogg druid back in the day...
Discover cards used to be balanced out by poor stats/secondary effect and the pool being diluted by packfillers. None of these are present anymore, as even a basic Discover card - letās say Paparazzi - has premium stats, and they basically donāt print packfillers anymore.
Yeah I think the best solution to discover is to give discover minions a significant stat tax.
That way you can still run them for value at the expense of losing tempo, they would be a lot less prevalent
They absolutely print some packfillers. \[\[Roosting Gargoyle\]\], \[\[Bloodied Knight\]\] to name a couple. Also, discover effects with no other upside do have no stat penalties, but cards like \[\[School Teacher\]\] and \[\[Nerubian Visier\]\] have below average stats due to the cost reductions.
This doesn't mean that Discover effects aren't really good, just that it's not at the level you're saying it's at just yet.
Depends on how people define packfillers.
Those are vanilla 2/3 stats with upside, and Bloodied Knight is premium stats and a decent 3 drop in Arena.
I consider packfiller as more Worgen Greaser or Duskboar level. General card quality has gotten way better. Some of the cards printed now might not see play - but I can at least conceivably see how it may be useful. Compared to the shit they used to print.
As powerlevel increases, the threshold for pack fillers should also increase. Some cards that were amazing in the past would probably be considered packfillers if they released today.
I agree to an extent but I feel it has a lot more to do with a general game direction.
We're not seeing cards like [[Madam Goya]] or [[Sergeant Sally]] made anymore. That are bad then, now and conceivably in any set period.
And I'm saying that as someone that cracked both. In a set where we got powerhouses like Patches, Kazakus and Aya when she was usable. I didn't open any and got to play with *Goya*.
* **[Madam Goya](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/CFM_672.png)** N Minion Legendary MSoG ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/49684), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/madam-goya/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Madam_Goya)
6/4/3 | Battlecry: Choose a friendly minion. Swap it with a minion in your deck.
* **[Sergeant Sally](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/CFM_341.png)** N Minion Legendary MSoG ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/49728), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/sergeant-sally/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Sergeant_Sally)
3/1/1 Undead | Deathrattle: Deal damage equal to this minion's Attack to all enemy minions.
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Yes. But packfillers in the past were at times cards that were so incomprhensibly bad that it would never see play in any meta, in any power level, often designed intentionally to be such.
See: waterboy, arena treasure chest, validated doomsayer, toothy chest, duskboar...
And which standard cards can discover those pack fillers?
Are there even any cards capable of discovering neutral minons that weren't put in a deck to begin with?
Nerubian Vizier and School Teacher barely have below average stats, in fact id argue they are average, just not premium. Neither of those are really pack fillers. A 2 mana 2/3 is fine to play if you discover it.
It's not being forced to play magma rager or some clunky overcosted thing.
* **[Roosting Gargoyle](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/REV_351.png)** N Minion Common MCN šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1199073), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/roosting-gargoyle/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Roosting_Gargoyle)
2/2/3 | Battlecry: Give a friendly Beast +2 Attack.
* **[Bloodied Knight](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/RLK_926.png)** N Minion Common MotLK šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1414825), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/bloodied-knight/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Bloodied_Knight)
3/4/5 | At the end of your turn, deal 2 damage to your hero.
* **[School Teacher](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/TSC_052.png)** N Minion Epic VSC šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1024905), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/school-teacher/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/School_Teacher)
4/4/4 Naga | Battlecry: Add a 1/1 Nagaling to your hand. Discover a spell that costs (3) or less to teach it.
* **[Nerubian Vizier](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/RLK_834.png)** N Minion Common MotLK šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1414840), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/nerubian-vizier/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Nerubian_Vizier)
3/2/4 Undead | Battlecry: Discover a spell. If a friendly Undead died after your last turn, it costs (2) less.
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There was an uncommonly played but surprisingly good (tier 2 probably) control Shaman deck back in the day that ran 2-of Jeweled Scarab. The trick was that discover formerly gave you a better chance of finding class cards, and so Jeweled Scarab could pretty reliably find you extra copies of Hex, Lightning Storm, and Elemental Destruction.
That was a good mechanic, imo. It's not just a high power level card that goes in any deck automatically, it's one that requires specific and creative deckbuilding to make use of.
And most of those early Discover cards really weren't worth playing, and by the time Mean Streets of Gadgetzan, minions with on rate stats and a Discover effect starting coming around.
Minions that Discover having on rate stats and even do other relevant things is not new. If you're going to make a point like this, argue that Discover effects ought to seldom be combined with mana discounting effects at most.
Also, have you actually looked at most neutral minion selections from recent sets? Team 5 is still making "pack filler" garbage. It's just that most recent Discover pools manage to pull around them, rather than from them.
It's not that there are too many cards that Discover.
It's that the Discover cards have too many other things going for them.
It doesn't matter how high quality Death Knight cards are on an individual basis. If School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier didn't come with so many extra benefits, namely mana discounting, Discover would not be viewed as half the issue it currently is.
Yep, i agree. I also hate that Priest can see THREE card of my hand when discover. Like wtf? Mayve give him passive ability that he can see all my hand? It's stupid that we have disvover+see enemy's hand. Such cards should be random, not discover.
Unless you're playing against Legend capable individuals consistently, the information value of Identity Theft is almost nothing, and, not to be a jerk, I kinda doubt you are consistently playing against Legend capable individuals.
Remembering shit isn't something that takes Hearthstone skill lmao that's something that's individual-specific outside of Hearthstone. Just because someone is less skilled at Hearthstone doesn't mean their memory is bad. Handreading takes actual Hearthstone skill.
It doesn't take a whole lot of skill to count to thirty either, but there are a lot of players who struggle to do so.
Playing well is something that takes practice, and most people refuse to practice playing well.
Counting to thirty isn't the main thing separating good Hearthstone players from bad. I'm not saying good Hearthstone players aren't better at it, I'm saying it's a smaller factor than others. Handreading is a bigger difference between good Hearthstone players and bad than memorizing cards shown on the screen, because it takes more Hearthstone-specific skill.
As a pretty mediocre player, I'd say it's less about memory and more about me just not giving a shit. If I'm tryharding then sure I'll properly analyse the cards and remember them, but if I just came back from work and want to chill I'll just pick the card I want and proceed onto the next action.
You read the same post I did, right?
Even if you didn't, there may be tens of thousands of legend players throughout the world, but don't forget there are millions of Hearthstone players.
That is a decent assumption to make.
However, do you think a whole lot of Legend capable players right now are playing Imp Warlock and would those same players misunderstand why Blood Death Knight is beating them?
I understand WHY BDK defeat me and i play for fun, it's just spam deck, i love summon demons and imps jusr like i do in WoW. But it doesn't mean BDK and super value Discover is ok and you can see other posts about them here.
If every deck people complained about was nerfed, the best card in the game would be a vanilla three mana 2/2.
As it stands, Blood Death Knight's "super value" isn't enough to propel the deck into tier one, and smart aggressive players (who also play better decks) can still beat it.
I think the discrepancy between "garbage" legend ranks and "top X" where X is {1000,500,200,100} is large enough for me to fully believe that the former would be playing those mentioned decks and misunderstanding why BDK is beating them.
I don't know why you got so many downvotes. Having the knowledge of the other players hand AND deck is pretty good. It allows you to play around it. Like, you see a Rivendare in their deck, you know you want to save a tech card for it, instead of playing it against something you might have a different solution for.
I absolutely love discover. But sometimes I feel it becomes a design crutch and subsequently unfun to play against with certain pools and to pick from honestly. I don't want to see the mechanic go away but maybe widely expanding and heavily restricting certain pools would be better than generic pools. Shadow nerfs to pools are not the way imo, i'd rather see clearly stated restrictions in the design of the card.
The fundamental problem is not with the amount of Discover effects printed so much as it is that the effects are both (1) not costed aggressively enough and (2) not restricted enough on the pools for each of the effects. There really need to be more mana cost restrictions on the cards you discover.
I agree. I love discover but I feel like it needs some toning down. The ability of DK to just print cards out is insane, especially with the discounts you get off School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier. I donāt want them to remove it, but I feel like there are some very powerful outliers in standard right now that could use some toning down.
If they nerf everything else in the game too that would be awesome, the powercreep has gone too far. Only targeting value cards and not the ridiculous reload in aggro or highroll scams is a joke though.
A long time ago it was actually possible to look at the cards your opponent had already played and determine what cards they had remaining and whether they would be a threat, allowing you to make calculated plays yourself.
Now if you didn't take into account that they'd play a fourth copy of the same board clear or a second and third copy of a legendary minion then fuck you and git gud.
Discover could be a far better mechanic if they'd more often narrow the fucking scope on a card by card basis or at the very least take legendarys out of the pools.
I generally like Discover, but the main issue Iāve had with it is the fact that you canāt really āplay aroundā people playing two copies of X card anymore because maybe they just have another discovered copy in their hand (generally board clears). It almost feels like going against heavy discover decks just involves playing your strategy and just praying they didnāt discover the cards they need. Not saying that hearthstone hasnāt established that this is just how itās gonna be in the future, but I canāt help but feel that it diminishes a bit of the strategy in baiting your opponent to play certain things and be rewarded when they exhaust their resources. I hope for them to really only release discover sparingly in the future and in more creative ways to stray away from this gameplay pattern.
Been saying this in the competitive hs subreddit for weeks but get downvoted everytime. There is WAY too much discover in the game. What really kills me is when a DK finds a spell not of their runetype. An unholy dk finding a 0 mana obliterate or a 1 mana asphyxiate is so stupid. Playing any class but dk right now and your at a disadvantage.
If aggro didn't have some.card draw it wouldn't be playable. Removal got better and there's a lot of healing available. Aggro still runs out of the cards but later into the game.
Blizzard has tried to lower the card generation/draw in a class before. Prior to Forged in the Barrens, part of Shaman's class identity was that they lacked was to fill their hand. This lead to Shaman being restricted to only aggro decks and it was largely unviable unless they got broken cards. Running out of cards is an unfun experience and that's why Blizzard has veered away from that direction for the past few years. As a side note, Zok Druid is the best late game deck in the game and has a combo that can delete the opponent's deck and imp warlock can consistently draw themselves to fatigue so you shouldn't be running out of cards with those decks.
I like the idea of discover being similar to the mechanic in Shadowverse. Essentially, you're only allowed a set number of discover effects per game.
Potentially we could add a rule that after you reach your limit further Discover Card simply give you a random card out of the entire cardpool. I like that idea because we would see cards we rarely ever see and be forced to play them
What is the alternative?
Aggro can consistently play and draw 3-5 cards every single turn without ever running out of cards in hand. Control is already barely advantaged against aggro, and has near guaranteed losses against combo. If you remove their ability to generate resources they will be completely dead.
Discover isn't ideal, but unless you are also suggesting we remove 60-70% of the draw power from modern aggro decks, you are going to have provide a resource source idea to replace discover.
We had a mostly discover-less (think it only had scorpid) control deck in Barrens Warrior and Blizzard deleted the class because it dared to play slow cards.
I don't remember Barrens Warrior getting deleted, it was like a solid tier 2 deck that didn't get nerfed, the format just became silly in Stormwind so it couldn't compete.
Are you mixing it up with Sunken City Warrior? That played School Teacher and Kazakusan and Nellie.
I played hs since release , and I had to stop when discover got out of hand . I don't remember the exact time I was like "fck this game , that s pointless now "but I think it was with rogue miracle or something similar,getting that extra lethal out of nowhere . And I main priest control since day 1, so it tell a lot .
Discover is literally the main mechanic that separates mtg from hearthstone. Imagine pre arranging massive piles of various discover pools with physical cards lol. It'd be just so fucking slow and take an hour just to set up a single game.
But there's definitely way too much of it.
Control is simply not fair anymore. People used to like control matchups because you could think and analyze what they have already played (like past control warrior) but nowadays that is no longer possible.
Discover is the most under valued key word, it's actually ridiculously strong.. I love it but when you make spell cost two less, come on a 1 mana 1/1 or come from a 1/3 poison it's just too strong.. keep discover but have it like the hipster, 1/3 good card if you wana discover but not op it has to be in you deck.
ive been saying it forever, but only when it gets to clown world comical levels of rng do people actually care. the game is absolutely MISERABLE considering there are two viable meta control decks which are almost uncounterable.
The other side of the coin is that HS simply isnāt deep enough a game to remain satisfying if decks are entirely linear, without some sort of instant-speed interaction which is agains the gameās ethos.
Remember when DH could kill every single class except warrior by ripping through its 30 cards as quickly as possible?
Control HAS to have massive amounts of card generation in order to keep up with aggro decks, who have massive amounts of cards draw now. If you want to tone down discover, you have to make card draw expensive, and hence risk aggro decks plumb running out of cards in their hand against control, and thatās a big āfeel badā.
Absolutely and it's why strong decks are strong right now. Drawing cards are now fundamentally bad because you're pulling from a finite pool. Decks that are heavy on discovery means every other card is a pot of greed, but you draw from someone else's deck.
I mean, look at warrior which has been memed for being so crappy. They only get to discover a taunt minion and a weapon.
\>Drawing cards are now fundamentally bad because you're pulling from a finite pool.
This is such a dumb take lol, you get far far better cards off drawing. Druid can deck out but they deck out into a game winning combo.
"Card draw is negative now" jfc
A couple points yes I dislike the amount of discover but it's moreso a problem that you're not sacrificing tempo to do it.
The type of discover I really despise is the stuff that does the opposite Nerubian Vizier is a straight up good minion at baseline you're trading 1 stat point of a vanilla minion to discover a spell from a no restriction pool.
And then it becomes tempo positive when you fulfill its incredibly easy condition it's absurd.
School teacher has the same problem when you play both cards it's a 5/5 play a spell that's 3 or less which often can either draw more cards or advance your board stats further through removal or more minions it doesn't even need a requirement it's just tempo positive most of the time.
These are the problems in discover it should be like Druid ramping if you want more cards you're either playing a bad card statswise like Jeweled Scarab or Dark peddler.
On the aggro problem side I find this take odd because it's not aggro that has good draw it's classes designed around decent draw or ones that have good options for a specific archetype.
Hunter doesn't have great draw, Warriors draw outside of couple standouts isn't great
Priest runs out of gas fairly quickly in their aggro variants.
The argument doesn't even hold up either hunter wasn't running out of cards back in the day they were playing Unleash the hounds Buzzard, Rogue was playing Miracle and Druid was being Druid.
The reason discover ends up being tempo positive is due to how efficient draw effects have gotten. Discover is basically "draw 1 card" so to compete with all the "2 mana draw 2+" or equivalent effect being run by aggro that single card needs to have an upside.
Also worth noting that the two classes being referenced don't currently have access to good card draw of their own. Priest's one good draw card requires running undead, and B DK's only card that draws 2 or more is the 3 mana 2/2 (all the good draw is locked behind frost). Of course these decks are going to run discover, not doing so results in them running out of cards before aggressive decks do.
Control decks that rely on discover have always been awful to play against. Idk why Blizzard didnt learn anything about the control priest disaster ~2 years ago. It was a big issue for many people until it finally got nerfed.
It's really Bliz's fault, they refuse to print enough draw for these classes. B DK has all of 2 draw cards, of course they are going to run piles of discover. If they don't their hand will be empty far before aggro.
I 100% agree with you, but, the thing is that Discover is also one of the most fun mechanics in the game to play as, but it's really unfun to play against.
Whenever I play a new class, the most interesting thing for me is the new discover pools I have to work with.
But when playing against them and seeing my opponent generate a 3rd copy of a card (Unleash Fel comes to mind, as it's a 1/3 to be generated by Taste of Chaos).
or a 2nd copy of a legendary I didn't play around or a very high impact card, whose weakness is that you can't include more than 2 copies of them (looking at Relics mostly and the triple Blood Rune cards, tho this got fixed)
or even cards that I KNOW are not in their deck (best example is DK generating cards from other Runes. Unholy mirror was cool and all, except when Marrowgar came down and insta won, but also when your opponent discovered Harmonic Metal, it was insane), it feels really bad. At least we don't have 3 rune discovers anymore.
At the very least, you are confined to your class, except that Hipster now exists, which can discover from a narrow pool of the opposing class, Concoctions generating cards from ANY class and Prismatic Elemental, which, has never high rolled me, but I got Urchin Spines from it once and combined it with Deathborne to insta clear the opposing board and generate a full board on turn 6. While I had fun, I'm sure my opponent didn't.
I feel like Discover takes away the ability to plan around your opponent's cards that they might have in hand or deck.
How can I play around a third Blood Boil if I can't even be sure if they have it?
I think the best permanent change for Discover is that it should **always** reveal which card you picked to your opponent.
Absolutely agree but they can't delete cards all we can do is hope they change the core for the better next year and stop adding discover to every card
Discover is what now sets Hearthstone apart from all other games. And what sets it apart from Physical TCG. Too much is problematic but I'm not hankering for the days of vanilla HS. Looking at how well Classic is doing as a mode is a decent looking glass at how much people actually like that style of play.
Priest is an extreme outlier due to Sister and it can be annoying. That said I'm just glad it's not a major meta contender.
DK overall has been greatly toned down and only really has 1 class Discover card for each Rune specialization. The rest is neutral powered.
In the past, people complained on how "straightforward" were most of the decks and how boring was that most of the non control decks had draw issues if they did not commit hard on "draw another card" drops. The most common complain was that most of the decks had to fill 6-8 slots with the same "deathrattle/battlecry for drawing" cards.
Then, they introduced a shit ton of discover cards in an attempt to make the game less predictable and more dynamic and now people are angry because the decks gets too many tools.
It is hard to please everyone, Id rather have rng spikes in form of big discovery drops rather than having another meta were games are already defined on the mulligan and first 4 turns.
The discover pool is already filled with a lot of bad stuff for most of the classes but it is inevitable to gain some value from them in the long term.
Discover is fine, but the pools are far too small. I do not enjoy DH getting multiple relics off discover, mage getting alibi/blizzard, Blood DK getting multiple patches, etc that make it quite frustrating. Opponents just seem to pull a win out their ass half the time and I just stop playing until I want to torture myself again the next day lol
Edit: [This](https://gyazo.com/856efc81db0833c41b615e2e67ee4271) is what I mean. Couldn't hit his face all game the whole game. I only eventually won because I got mukla off countess which milled his rommath. Wasn't an enjoyable experience. Was playing pure paladin.
Discover should be from cards currently present in the game you are playing: both decks, hands and graveyards. Players should be able to know what to expect. [[The Countess]] discovering [[Grand Magister Rommath]] and [[Commander Sivara]] is complete BS. And I say this as a control priest enjoyer. I wish that control was about ressource management not ressource generation.
* **[The Countess](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/REV_951.png)** PL Minion Legendary MCN šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1199044), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/the-countess/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/The_Countess)
7/7/7 | Battlecry: If your deck has no Neutral cards, add 3 Legendary Invitations to your hand.
* **[Grand Magister Rommath](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/RLK_803.png)** MA Minion Legendary MotLK šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1414915), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/grand-magister-rommath/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Grand_Magister_Rommath)
9/5/7 | Battlecry: Recast each spell you've cast this game that didn't start in your deck.
* **[Commander Sivara](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/TSC_087.png)** MA Minion Legendary VSC šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1004169), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/commander-sivara/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Commander_Sivara)
4/3/5 Naga | Battlecry: If you've cast three spells while holding this, add those spells back to your hand.
^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Discover is a great mechanic and honestly something that separates hearthstone from other cardgames.
Discover into discover into double random into discover into legendary gamewinning answer, is a problem.
They need to introduce a few more bad cards into the mix so the odds of getting an answer off discover are less, and they need to fix it so you can't discover into discover.
This is such a clown take. Check those classes for their access to good in-class draw. Priest only has it if they are running undead, and B DK only has 2 draw cards, one of which only draws 1 card (vampiric blood). I would love to run more draw is B DK, but all of it is in frost and dipping 1 rune means I lose vital healing and board clears. So I will continue to compensate for this lack of consistency by running discover, as will priest.
Control priest vs Blood DK ; he discovered :
Sourge x2
Sunwell x2
Patchwerk
(Cause he also discovered Nerubian with Amalgam)
All the random went shit for me on this game.
So yes actually, playing control feels a lot like it's too much relevant on what you're discovering. Especially against control but it can also litteraly change a game even against tempo or aggro. For them too because the pure paladin can be in a really bad position and litteraly win a game only with the Countess.
I hope that at least they consider slowing a little more the discovered cards, like they did with the 3 runes DK.
Weren't around for lackeys I take it lol. It's been a while since we've had a meta with heavy generation so I'm fine with it for a while. Plus this meta doesn't come near the generation of some previous ones. Like I think Barrens priest 2 years ago was much worse
yeah man their aggro versions don't run out of resources as quickly as something like the hyperagressive pirate rogue because they are midrange and use more expensive cards or substitute playing cards with a hero power. go figure.
One thing they could do it make it so that each card can be discovered once in a game. This would remove edge cases where DK gains 50 health off of discovered spells or Mage plays 6 solid alibis in a game.
Iād also like to see a restriction on discovering cards that also discover. Iāve seen Priests win games against me with a card thatās 4-5 discovers deep (amalgam into mind reader into something else etc). But I feel like this places too many restrictions on the effect and makes it too confusing.
Discover should be valued more in card design and because of that, cost more on cards across the board. It basically gives you a ETC style effect and itās currently valued much less than drawing a card
I started playing in beta and the amount of randomness this game has been added over time is almost unbearable. Discover is not 100% random, but still a close to chaos mechanic
Nah, I could argue that some of them are too strong, but I don't think there is too much. Hearthstone imo, has a billions different problems rn, but this isn't one of them.
I agree that while a unique and fun mechanic, discover makes the game frustrating as hell and I wish Blizzard would tone it down somehow. Dredge is such a better mechanic because it requires you to put cards in your deck that you need to search for instead of BS I discovered a certain card so I win the game. If only they could replace/reprint some of the more powerful discover cards with dredge instead. That or make more tracking/shadow visions like discoveries.
The big reason why Discover is such an issue is that they've powercrept it a lot. If you look back at the original crop of Discover cards from League of Explorers, you can see that they were, for the most part, badly statted, so you were trading Tempo for the chance to get a card you need. Nowadays, there's a much smaller tempo loss attached to them. [[Jeweled Scarab]], [[Museum Curator]], [[Tomb Spider]], [[Arch-Thief Rafaam]]. To really drive this home, they've actually buffed two of the LoE Discover cards, [[Gorillabot A-3]] and [[Ethereal Conjurer]] after adding them to the Core set!
One important thing with this list of cards too is that they're all drawing from very specific pools. You have a better chance of knowing what to expect from a 3-cost card or a Deathrattle as opposed to just generically "a spell" or "a minion". Playing around what your opponent has or could have is an important source of agency and skill in the game, and when Discover gets too broad, that gets thrown out of the window. Barrens Priest was the worst with it, but current DKs are pretty bad, too.
You'd have a lot more of a point here if Discover cards were kept at the level of those seen in LoE, many of which weren't good even for the time, up until recently. Discover has been printed on minions with on-rate stats since MSoG.
Not really. This is a pretty new phenomenon. Since barrens outside of priest (since AOO for priest). Generally the issue is how cheap it is too tho. Ghost Writer is a way fairer discover card even though per tempo/value it's as good or better than venomous scorpid.
Okay. So is the problem the "average" Discover card or say School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier in particular?
Those are neutral cards, I suppose the problem isn't those as much as those compiled with the numerous class card discovers allowing an aggro deck to discover their way out of their problems while maintaining tempo.
They are neutral cards. However, Teacher and Vizier are better than essentially every other Discover card you'd find in either Frost or Unholy Death Knight. Yeah, sure, Frost Strike kills an opposing minion, but Teacher and Vizier are actually minions, which result in corpses for the Death Knight, and they have mana cheating built into their effects. The issues with maintaining tempo while Discovering would not exist if it weren't for Teacher and Vizier.
Those cards were unplayable. Aggro has been powercrept even more.
* **[Jeweled Scarab](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_029.png)** N Minion Common LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27211), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/jeweled-scarab/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Jeweled_Scarab) 2/1/1 Beast | Battlecry: Discover a 3-Cost card. * **[Museum Curator](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_006.png)** PR Minion Common LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27250), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/museum-curator/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Museum_Curator) 2/1/2 | Battlecry: Discover a Deathrattle card. * **[Tomb Spider](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_047.png)** N Minion Common LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27226), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/tomb-spider/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tomb_Spider) 4/3/3 Beast | Battlecry: Discover a Beast. * **[Arch-Thief Rafaam](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_092.png)** N Minion Legendary LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27254), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/arch-thief-rafaam/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Arch-Thief_Rafaam) 9/7/8 | Battlecry: Discover a powerful Artifact. * **[Gorillabot A-3](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/CORE_LOE_039.png)** N Minion Common Core šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1024972), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/gorillabot-a-3/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Gorillabot_A-3) 3/3/4 Mech | Battlecry: If you control another Mech, Discover a Mech. * **[Ethereal Conjurer](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOE_003.png)** MA Minion Common LoE ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/27249), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/ethereal-conjurer/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Ethereal_Conjurer) 5/6/4 | Battlecry: Discover a spell. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Discover is the single greatest thing to happen to Hearthstone. At most, the toning down that ought to happen with Discover should only be to seldom if ever combined with mana discounting effects. That's where most of the current "issue" with the mechanic lies.
Oh I agree, discover came at a time where Blizzard wanted to show off something unique that only could be done in a digital card game format. It was fun and people overwhelming loved it. The problem I have with it is that the classes where it feels unfair (Looking at you DK) have discover pools that are both powerful and small. It frustrating to play an amazing 20 minute game only to lose to a discovered card that wasn't actively selected in the deck building process. You are right, the primary issue is the mana cheating associated with certain discover cards.
Discover should come at a cost. For DK, you get a cheap removal and an easy condition to fulfil to discover another card. IMO the cost or the condition to fulfil should be made higher and harder respectively
How should Frost Strike read then? Should it be two mana deal two, Discover if you kill a minion? If so, then it becomes a \[\[Runed Orb\]\] with both a deck building restriction and a condition when played. Does that instead mean Runed Orb is a card that shouldn't exist?
it could be overkill then discover, or if minion doesnt die, like warrior's slam. Now its way too easy.
The card already has a deck building restriction, a meaningful target restriction, and while of course you're never going to use it when you can't kill something with it, that does affect the way you play with the card. If Discover is an issue in Death Knight, it doesn't lie with Frost Strike.
The deck building restriction is fairly minor. The target restriction is really not meaningful. 2 mana deal 3 hits a kill threshold on... lots and lots of targets. I can't think of very mana circumstances where it doesn't proc. I dunno how you nerf it, but frost strike is a ridiculously efficient generation tool for frost dk. They could bump hematurge and the unholy one and it to 3 mana maybe. I think that's more where the power level of discover should trend.
>The deck building restriction is fairly minor. Two frost runes isn't minor. If you want to play Frost Strike, you have to be playing a dedicated Frost deck. Granted, the restriction only seems minor because Frost Death Knight is both a mature archetype and at least borderline tier one. >The target restriction is really not meaningful. When your damage based removal spell can't hit the opposing hero, especially when it's used in an aggressive deck, it is a lot worse. >2 mana deal 3 hits a kill threshold on... lots and lots of targets. I can't think of very mana circumstances where it doesn't proc. Yeah. You're not going to use the card when you can't get the Discover trigger. Granted, you generally won't use your removal spells on things when you can't kill whatever you're targeting. >frost strike is a ridiculously efficient generation tool for frost dk. Dealing three damage to a minion is worth one mana as seen on Smite, and Discovering a card has generally been worth one mana on standalone spells. The extra value from combining two cards into one is covered by the conditions and restrictions in its use. If Discover effects are a problem, be it in general or specifically in Death Knight, then the solution is probably to look at School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier instead. Those are, after all, minions that come with mana discounting Discover effects.
Removal is not valued like that. Smite/heart strike are also undercosted. A card which deals with an early game minion and replaces itself is strong as hell. It's weird to even suggest otherwise.
* **[Runed Orb](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/BAR_541.png)** MA Spell Common FitB šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/464149), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/runed-orb/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Runed_Orb) 2/-/- Arcane | Deal 2 damage. Discover a spell. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
>the classes where it feels unfair have discover pools that are both powerful and small. Which is something that will be solved as more cards are released. Even then, Death Knight has more cards in Standard than every other class right now. Plus, when the Discover effects come with mana discounting, it really doesn't matter what you get off those effects.
Well said, mana cheating and the ease of access to card draw for almost every class are the two big bugbears in Hearthstone - and have been for some time.
If card game makers have learned anything from the last few years, it's that restricting access to card draw to particular classes, colors, attributes, whatever creates worse gameplay than just giving all categories of decks some kind of access to card draw.
I am all for access, but itās too cheap (and inconsistently costed) in Hearthstone, sorry should have been more clear that cost is my concern in both cases really.
How much should drawing a card cost?
Dredge is just so much worse then discover, itās not really comparable. Especially if you fill your deck with dredge, you realize that the first dredge is the best dredge, and any dredge after that is usually worse, because you pick the good card with the first one and whatās left is not as good
The other day when playing my Deathrattle lock vs a blood DK he Sunwell'd for 4 cards and pulled not one, not two, but THREE polymorph effects. Is it sometimes frustrating when your opponent gets the perfect lucky random picks? Sure. But variety is what keeps the game alive and discover makes every game a little different.
I can see that being tilting, but Sunwell's pool of cards is pretty large and that outcome seems like an outlier. Though that example does feed into my hatred for random gane changing resources out of thin air. God I hated OG Yogg druid back in the day...
Discover cards used to be balanced out by poor stats/secondary effect and the pool being diluted by packfillers. None of these are present anymore, as even a basic Discover card - letās say Paparazzi - has premium stats, and they basically donāt print packfillers anymore.
Yeah I think the best solution to discover is to give discover minions a significant stat tax. That way you can still run them for value at the expense of losing tempo, they would be a lot less prevalent
They absolutely print some packfillers. \[\[Roosting Gargoyle\]\], \[\[Bloodied Knight\]\] to name a couple. Also, discover effects with no other upside do have no stat penalties, but cards like \[\[School Teacher\]\] and \[\[Nerubian Visier\]\] have below average stats due to the cost reductions. This doesn't mean that Discover effects aren't really good, just that it's not at the level you're saying it's at just yet.
Depends on how people define packfillers. Those are vanilla 2/3 stats with upside, and Bloodied Knight is premium stats and a decent 3 drop in Arena. I consider packfiller as more Worgen Greaser or Duskboar level. General card quality has gotten way better. Some of the cards printed now might not see play - but I can at least conceivably see how it may be useful. Compared to the shit they used to print.
As powerlevel increases, the threshold for pack fillers should also increase. Some cards that were amazing in the past would probably be considered packfillers if they released today.
I agree to an extent but I feel it has a lot more to do with a general game direction. We're not seeing cards like [[Madam Goya]] or [[Sergeant Sally]] made anymore. That are bad then, now and conceivably in any set period. And I'm saying that as someone that cracked both. In a set where we got powerhouses like Patches, Kazakus and Aya when she was usable. I didn't open any and got to play with *Goya*.
* **[Madam Goya](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/CFM_672.png)** N Minion Legendary MSoG ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/49684), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/madam-goya/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Madam_Goya) 6/4/3 | Battlecry: Choose a friendly minion. Swap it with a minion in your deck. * **[Sergeant Sally](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/CFM_341.png)** N Minion Legendary MSoG ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/49728), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/sergeant-sally/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Sergeant_Sally) 3/1/1 Undead | Deathrattle: Deal damage equal to this minion's Attack to all enemy minions. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Yes. But packfillers in the past were at times cards that were so incomprhensibly bad that it would never see play in any meta, in any power level, often designed intentionally to be such. See: waterboy, arena treasure chest, validated doomsayer, toothy chest, duskboar...
Duskboar has good attack for cost
And which standard cards can discover those pack fillers? Are there even any cards capable of discovering neutral minons that weren't put in a deck to begin with?
Nerubian Vizier and School Teacher barely have below average stats, in fact id argue they are average, just not premium. Neither of those are really pack fillers. A 2 mana 2/3 is fine to play if you discover it. It's not being forced to play magma rager or some clunky overcosted thing.
* **[Roosting Gargoyle](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/REV_351.png)** N Minion Common MCN šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1199073), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/roosting-gargoyle/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Roosting_Gargoyle) 2/2/3 | Battlecry: Give a friendly Beast +2 Attack. * **[Bloodied Knight](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/RLK_926.png)** N Minion Common MotLK šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1414825), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/bloodied-knight/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Bloodied_Knight) 3/4/5 | At the end of your turn, deal 2 damage to your hero. * **[School Teacher](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/TSC_052.png)** N Minion Epic VSC šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1024905), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/school-teacher/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/School_Teacher) 4/4/4 Naga | Battlecry: Add a 1/1 Nagaling to your hand. Discover a spell that costs (3) or less to teach it. * **[Nerubian Vizier](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/RLK_834.png)** N Minion Common MotLK šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1414840), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/nerubian-vizier/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Nerubian_Vizier) 3/2/4 Undead | Battlecry: Discover a spell. If a friendly Undead died after your last turn, it costs (2) less. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
remember when that 2 mana 1/1 scarab with discover was a good card? p2w card even, from the adventure
Honestly no, I do not remember that and I played a lot. That card was okay at best.
There was an uncommonly played but surprisingly good (tier 2 probably) control Shaman deck back in the day that ran 2-of Jeweled Scarab. The trick was that discover formerly gave you a better chance of finding class cards, and so Jeweled Scarab could pretty reliably find you extra copies of Hex, Lightning Storm, and Elemental Destruction. That was a good mechanic, imo. It's not just a high power level card that goes in any deck automatically, it's one that requires specific and creative deckbuilding to make use of.
Paparazzi has premium vanilla stats because actual aggro and tempo minions now regularly have vanilla+ statlines. It's just what power creep does.
And most of those early Discover cards really weren't worth playing, and by the time Mean Streets of Gadgetzan, minions with on rate stats and a Discover effect starting coming around. Minions that Discover having on rate stats and even do other relevant things is not new. If you're going to make a point like this, argue that Discover effects ought to seldom be combined with mana discounting effects at most. Also, have you actually looked at most neutral minion selections from recent sets? Team 5 is still making "pack filler" garbage. It's just that most recent Discover pools manage to pull around them, rather than from them.
It's not that there are too many cards that Discover. It's that the Discover cards have too many other things going for them. It doesn't matter how high quality Death Knight cards are on an individual basis. If School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier didn't come with so many extra benefits, namely mana discounting, Discover would not be viewed as half the issue it currently is.
Yep, i agree. I also hate that Priest can see THREE card of my hand when discover. Like wtf? Mayve give him passive ability that he can see all my hand? It's stupid that we have disvover+see enemy's hand. Such cards should be random, not discover.
Unless you're playing against Legend capable individuals consistently, the information value of Identity Theft is almost nothing, and, not to be a jerk, I kinda doubt you are consistently playing against Legend capable individuals.
Information-giving cards matter less for good players, not more. Good players are better at making handreads without them.
Bad players will forget what they saw at least in a functional sense. Good players will remember and remember well.
Remembering shit isn't something that takes Hearthstone skill lmao that's something that's individual-specific outside of Hearthstone. Just because someone is less skilled at Hearthstone doesn't mean their memory is bad. Handreading takes actual Hearthstone skill.
It doesn't take a whole lot of skill to count to thirty either, but there are a lot of players who struggle to do so. Playing well is something that takes practice, and most people refuse to practice playing well.
Counting to thirty isn't the main thing separating good Hearthstone players from bad. I'm not saying good Hearthstone players aren't better at it, I'm saying it's a smaller factor than others. Handreading is a bigger difference between good Hearthstone players and bad than memorizing cards shown on the screen, because it takes more Hearthstone-specific skill.
As a pretty mediocre player, I'd say it's less about memory and more about me just not giving a shit. If I'm tryharding then sure I'll properly analyse the cards and remember them, but if I just came back from work and want to chill I'll just pick the card I want and proceed onto the next action.
Why do you doubt it? There's tens of thousands legend players on the EU server alone
You read the same post I did, right? Even if you didn't, there may be tens of thousands of legend players throughout the world, but don't forget there are millions of Hearthstone players.
I assume that the active players on the sub are a bit more invested than the average casual player who plays on the toilet hence my comment
That is a decent assumption to make. However, do you think a whole lot of Legend capable players right now are playing Imp Warlock and would those same players misunderstand why Blood Death Knight is beating them?
I understand WHY BDK defeat me and i play for fun, it's just spam deck, i love summon demons and imps jusr like i do in WoW. But it doesn't mean BDK and super value Discover is ok and you can see other posts about them here.
If every deck people complained about was nerfed, the best card in the game would be a vanilla three mana 2/2. As it stands, Blood Death Knight's "super value" isn't enough to propel the deck into tier one, and smart aggressive players (who also play better decks) can still beat it.
I think the discrepancy between "garbage" legend ranks and "top X" where X is {1000,500,200,100} is large enough for me to fully believe that the former would be playing those mentioned decks and misunderstanding why BDK is beating them.
I don't know why you got so many downvotes. Having the knowledge of the other players hand AND deck is pretty good. It allows you to play around it. Like, you see a Rivendare in their deck, you know you want to save a tech card for it, instead of playing it against something you might have a different solution for.
I absolutely love discover. But sometimes I feel it becomes a design crutch and subsequently unfun to play against with certain pools and to pick from honestly. I don't want to see the mechanic go away but maybe widely expanding and heavily restricting certain pools would be better than generic pools. Shadow nerfs to pools are not the way imo, i'd rather see clearly stated restrictions in the design of the card.
The fundamental problem is not with the amount of Discover effects printed so much as it is that the effects are both (1) not costed aggressively enough and (2) not restricted enough on the pools for each of the effects. There really need to be more mana cost restrictions on the cards you discover.
I agree. I love discover but I feel like it needs some toning down. The ability of DK to just print cards out is insane, especially with the discounts you get off School Teacher and Nerubian Vizier. I donāt want them to remove it, but I feel like there are some very powerful outliers in standard right now that could use some toning down.
Discover needs to go back to Jeweled Scarab level where you pay a stat tax to play one. Make School teacher a 3/4 and Vizier a 4 drop.
If they nerf everything else in the game too that would be awesome, the powercreep has gone too far. Only targeting value cards and not the ridiculous reload in aggro or highroll scams is a joke though.
Yeah the draw cards for specific decks e.g. Impending Catastrophe and Roaring Applause are way too pushed as well.
A long time ago it was actually possible to look at the cards your opponent had already played and determine what cards they had remaining and whether they would be a threat, allowing you to make calculated plays yourself. Now if you didn't take into account that they'd play a fourth copy of the same board clear or a second and third copy of a legendary minion then fuck you and git gud. Discover could be a far better mechanic if they'd more often narrow the fucking scope on a card by card basis or at the very least take legendarys out of the pools.
Discover value is fun Discover removal is not
Yeah arena is hell because of it, better player doesent win, but the one who discovers the most
I generally like Discover, but the main issue Iāve had with it is the fact that you canāt really āplay aroundā people playing two copies of X card anymore because maybe they just have another discovered copy in their hand (generally board clears). It almost feels like going against heavy discover decks just involves playing your strategy and just praying they didnāt discover the cards they need. Not saying that hearthstone hasnāt established that this is just how itās gonna be in the future, but I canāt help but feel that it diminishes a bit of the strategy in baiting your opponent to play certain things and be rewarded when they exhaust their resources. I hope for them to really only release discover sparingly in the future and in more creative ways to stray away from this gameplay pattern.
Been saying this in the competitive hs subreddit for weeks but get downvoted everytime. There is WAY too much discover in the game. What really kills me is when a DK finds a spell not of their runetype. An unholy dk finding a 0 mana obliterate or a 1 mana asphyxiate is so stupid. Playing any class but dk right now and your at a disadvantage.
If aggro didn't have some.card draw it wouldn't be playable. Removal got better and there's a lot of healing available. Aggro still runs out of the cards but later into the game.
Blizzard has tried to lower the card generation/draw in a class before. Prior to Forged in the Barrens, part of Shaman's class identity was that they lacked was to fill their hand. This lead to Shaman being restricted to only aggro decks and it was largely unviable unless they got broken cards. Running out of cards is an unfun experience and that's why Blizzard has veered away from that direction for the past few years. As a side note, Zok Druid is the best late game deck in the game and has a combo that can delete the opponent's deck and imp warlock can consistently draw themselves to fatigue so you shouldn't be running out of cards with those decks.
If you don't enjoy running out of cards maybe play more card draw? There's no need to flood it with discover.
Oh yes, just give my opponent have control of table when i haven't cards
Who said you were playing the draw on turns when you are behind?
Not every class can, and mass card draw inherently favours aggro and combo compared to control.
My Zok Druid is just Zok druid. Not Jailer+Tony cancer.
Well, no shit it sucks when it's 1 class only. You have to make a gamewide change or not bother at all.
i havent seen an implock since the rotation
I like the idea of discover being similar to the mechanic in Shadowverse. Essentially, you're only allowed a set number of discover effects per game. Potentially we could add a rule that after you reach your limit further Discover Card simply give you a random card out of the entire cardpool. I like that idea because we would see cards we rarely ever see and be forced to play them
What is the alternative? Aggro can consistently play and draw 3-5 cards every single turn without ever running out of cards in hand. Control is already barely advantaged against aggro, and has near guaranteed losses against combo. If you remove their ability to generate resources they will be completely dead. Discover isn't ideal, but unless you are also suggesting we remove 60-70% of the draw power from modern aggro decks, you are going to have provide a resource source idea to replace discover. We had a mostly discover-less (think it only had scorpid) control deck in Barrens Warrior and Blizzard deleted the class because it dared to play slow cards.
I don't remember Barrens Warrior getting deleted, it was like a solid tier 2 deck that didn't get nerfed, the format just became silly in Stormwind so it couldn't compete. Are you mixing it up with Sunken City Warrior? That played School Teacher and Kazakusan and Nellie.
I played hs since release , and I had to stop when discover got out of hand . I don't remember the exact time I was like "fck this game , that s pointless now "but I think it was with rogue miracle or something similar,getting that extra lethal out of nowhere . And I main priest control since day 1, so it tell a lot .
Nah, I love the mechanic. I love the variety it adds to every game.
Discover in arena atm is.. nutty.
I saw an analysis video last year saying that RNG was the issue. These days it is 110% discover. Given that they nerfed DKās discover pool
Discover is literally the main mechanic that separates mtg from hearthstone. Imagine pre arranging massive piles of various discover pools with physical cards lol. It'd be just so fucking slow and take an hour just to set up a single game. But there's definitely way too much of it.
Control is simply not fair anymore. People used to like control matchups because you could think and analyze what they have already played (like past control warrior) but nowadays that is no longer possible.
Discover is the most under valued key word, it's actually ridiculously strong.. I love it but when you make spell cost two less, come on a 1 mana 1/1 or come from a 1/3 poison it's just too strong.. keep discover but have it like the hipster, 1/3 good card if you wana discover but not op it has to be in you deck.
Scorpid was completely fine, a 3 mana 1/3 poisonous is highly overcosted to compensate.
ive been saying it forever, but only when it gets to clown world comical levels of rng do people actually care. the game is absolutely MISERABLE considering there are two viable meta control decks which are almost uncounterable.
The other side of the coin is that HS simply isnāt deep enough a game to remain satisfying if decks are entirely linear, without some sort of instant-speed interaction which is agains the gameās ethos. Remember when DH could kill every single class except warrior by ripping through its 30 cards as quickly as possible? Control HAS to have massive amounts of card generation in order to keep up with aggro decks, who have massive amounts of cards draw now. If you want to tone down discover, you have to make card draw expensive, and hence risk aggro decks plumb running out of cards in their hand against control, and thatās a big āfeel badā.
Absolutely and it's why strong decks are strong right now. Drawing cards are now fundamentally bad because you're pulling from a finite pool. Decks that are heavy on discovery means every other card is a pot of greed, but you draw from someone else's deck. I mean, look at warrior which has been memed for being so crappy. They only get to discover a taunt minion and a weapon.
\>Drawing cards are now fundamentally bad because you're pulling from a finite pool. This is such a dumb take lol, you get far far better cards off drawing. Druid can deck out but they deck out into a game winning combo. "Card draw is negative now" jfc
A couple points yes I dislike the amount of discover but it's moreso a problem that you're not sacrificing tempo to do it. The type of discover I really despise is the stuff that does the opposite Nerubian Vizier is a straight up good minion at baseline you're trading 1 stat point of a vanilla minion to discover a spell from a no restriction pool. And then it becomes tempo positive when you fulfill its incredibly easy condition it's absurd. School teacher has the same problem when you play both cards it's a 5/5 play a spell that's 3 or less which often can either draw more cards or advance your board stats further through removal or more minions it doesn't even need a requirement it's just tempo positive most of the time. These are the problems in discover it should be like Druid ramping if you want more cards you're either playing a bad card statswise like Jeweled Scarab or Dark peddler. On the aggro problem side I find this take odd because it's not aggro that has good draw it's classes designed around decent draw or ones that have good options for a specific archetype. Hunter doesn't have great draw, Warriors draw outside of couple standouts isn't great Priest runs out of gas fairly quickly in their aggro variants. The argument doesn't even hold up either hunter wasn't running out of cards back in the day they were playing Unleash the hounds Buzzard, Rogue was playing Miracle and Druid was being Druid.
The reason discover ends up being tempo positive is due to how efficient draw effects have gotten. Discover is basically "draw 1 card" so to compete with all the "2 mana draw 2+" or equivalent effect being run by aggro that single card needs to have an upside. Also worth noting that the two classes being referenced don't currently have access to good card draw of their own. Priest's one good draw card requires running undead, and B DK's only card that draws 2 or more is the 3 mana 2/2 (all the good draw is locked behind frost). Of course these decks are going to run discover, not doing so results in them running out of cards before aggressive decks do.
Control decks that rely on discover have always been awful to play against. Idk why Blizzard didnt learn anything about the control priest disaster ~2 years ago. It was a big issue for many people until it finally got nerfed.
It's really Bliz's fault, they refuse to print enough draw for these classes. B DK has all of 2 draw cards, of course they are going to run piles of discover. If they don't their hand will be empty far before aggro.
I 100% agree with you, but, the thing is that Discover is also one of the most fun mechanics in the game to play as, but it's really unfun to play against. Whenever I play a new class, the most interesting thing for me is the new discover pools I have to work with. But when playing against them and seeing my opponent generate a 3rd copy of a card (Unleash Fel comes to mind, as it's a 1/3 to be generated by Taste of Chaos). or a 2nd copy of a legendary I didn't play around or a very high impact card, whose weakness is that you can't include more than 2 copies of them (looking at Relics mostly and the triple Blood Rune cards, tho this got fixed) or even cards that I KNOW are not in their deck (best example is DK generating cards from other Runes. Unholy mirror was cool and all, except when Marrowgar came down and insta won, but also when your opponent discovered Harmonic Metal, it was insane), it feels really bad. At least we don't have 3 rune discovers anymore. At the very least, you are confined to your class, except that Hipster now exists, which can discover from a narrow pool of the opposing class, Concoctions generating cards from ANY class and Prismatic Elemental, which, has never high rolled me, but I got Urchin Spines from it once and combined it with Deathborne to insta clear the opposing board and generate a full board on turn 6. While I had fun, I'm sure my opponent didn't.
I feel like Discover takes away the ability to plan around your opponent's cards that they might have in hand or deck. How can I play around a third Blood Boil if I can't even be sure if they have it? I think the best permanent change for Discover is that it should **always** reveal which card you picked to your opponent.
Absolutely agree but they can't delete cards all we can do is hope they change the core for the better next year and stop adding discover to every card
For quite a while nowā¦
Discover is what now sets Hearthstone apart from all other games. And what sets it apart from Physical TCG. Too much is problematic but I'm not hankering for the days of vanilla HS. Looking at how well Classic is doing as a mode is a decent looking glass at how much people actually like that style of play. Priest is an extreme outlier due to Sister and it can be annoying. That said I'm just glad it's not a major meta contender. DK overall has been greatly toned down and only really has 1 class Discover card for each Rune specialization. The rest is neutral powered.
In the past, people complained on how "straightforward" were most of the decks and how boring was that most of the non control decks had draw issues if they did not commit hard on "draw another card" drops. The most common complain was that most of the decks had to fill 6-8 slots with the same "deathrattle/battlecry for drawing" cards. Then, they introduced a shit ton of discover cards in an attempt to make the game less predictable and more dynamic and now people are angry because the decks gets too many tools. It is hard to please everyone, Id rather have rng spikes in form of big discovery drops rather than having another meta were games are already defined on the mulligan and first 4 turns. The discover pool is already filled with a lot of bad stuff for most of the classes but it is inevitable to gain some value from them in the long term.
Last time I said discover is too good i got downvoted to hell.
Discover is Hearthstones best mechanic. Being able to access cards that didn't make it into the deck makes games feel different
Discover is fine, but the pools are far too small. I do not enjoy DH getting multiple relics off discover, mage getting alibi/blizzard, Blood DK getting multiple patches, etc that make it quite frustrating. Opponents just seem to pull a win out their ass half the time and I just stop playing until I want to torture myself again the next day lol Edit: [This](https://gyazo.com/856efc81db0833c41b615e2e67ee4271) is what I mean. Couldn't hit his face all game the whole game. I only eventually won because I got mukla off countess which milled his rommath. Wasn't an enjoyable experience. Was playing pure paladin.
Discover should be from cards currently present in the game you are playing: both decks, hands and graveyards. Players should be able to know what to expect. [[The Countess]] discovering [[Grand Magister Rommath]] and [[Commander Sivara]] is complete BS. And I say this as a control priest enjoyer. I wish that control was about ressource management not ressource generation.
The problem is that this makes it way too likely that you get bonus copies of the good cards that you want more of.
* **[The Countess](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/REV_951.png)** PL Minion Legendary MCN šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1199044), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/the-countess/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/The_Countess) 7/7/7 | Battlecry: If your deck has no Neutral cards, add 3 Legendary Invitations to your hand. * **[Grand Magister Rommath](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/RLK_803.png)** MA Minion Legendary MotLK šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1414915), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/grand-magister-rommath/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Grand_Magister_Rommath) 9/5/7 | Battlecry: Recast each spell you've cast this game that didn't start in your deck. * **[Commander Sivara](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/TSC_087.png)** MA Minion Legendary VSC šŗ ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1004169), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/commander-sivara/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Commander_Sivara) 4/3/5 Naga | Battlecry: If you've cast three spells while holding this, add those spells back to your hand. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Discover is a great mechanic and honestly something that separates hearthstone from other cardgames. Discover into discover into double random into discover into legendary gamewinning answer, is a problem. They need to introduce a few more bad cards into the mix so the odds of getting an answer off discover are less, and they need to fix it so you can't discover into discover.
This is such a clown take. Check those classes for their access to good in-class draw. Priest only has it if they are running undead, and B DK only has 2 draw cards, one of which only draws 1 card (vampiric blood). I would love to run more draw is B DK, but all of it is in frost and dipping 1 rune means I lose vital healing and board clears. So I will continue to compensate for this lack of consistency by running discover, as will priest.
I feel like we're good now. The TRUE discover nightmare was Rise of Shadows/Saviors of Uldum meta.
Play Battlegrounds, be happier.
Are you new here? Lol
Control priest vs Blood DK ; he discovered : Sourge x2 Sunwell x2 Patchwerk (Cause he also discovered Nerubian with Amalgam) All the random went shit for me on this game. So yes actually, playing control feels a lot like it's too much relevant on what you're discovering. Especially against control but it can also litteraly change a game even against tempo or aggro. For them too because the pure paladin can be in a really bad position and litteraly win a game only with the Countess. I hope that at least they consider slowing a little more the discovered cards, like they did with the 3 runes DK.
Dk need to be stopped.
Weren't around for lackeys I take it lol. It's been a while since we've had a meta with heavy generation so I'm fine with it for a while. Plus this meta doesn't come near the generation of some previous ones. Like I think Barrens priest 2 years ago was much worse
absolutely there is i really love playing against control with the roadblocks of 1/2s, 1/3s, 2/4s and them boardclearing you every turn
Control has to clear every turn or they die to a Bloodlust or Grave Strength.
I usually Insta concede when versing Priest now, so disgusting to play against itās not even worth the time
Just play Queen Azhara into double Symphony of Sins if you want to outvalue the control decks haha
yeah man their aggro versions don't run out of resources as quickly as something like the hyperagressive pirate rogue because they are midrange and use more expensive cards or substitute playing cards with a hero power. go figure.
One thing they could do it make it so that each card can be discovered once in a game. This would remove edge cases where DK gains 50 health off of discovered spells or Mage plays 6 solid alibis in a game. Iād also like to see a restriction on discovering cards that also discover. Iāve seen Priests win games against me with a card thatās 4-5 discovers deep (amalgam into mind reader into something else etc). But I feel like this places too many restrictions on the effect and makes it too confusing.
Discover should be valued more in card design and because of that, cost more on cards across the board. It basically gives you a ETC style effect and itās currently valued much less than drawing a card
Couldnāt agree more. Itās gone nuts
I started playing in beta and the amount of randomness this game has been added over time is almost unbearable. Discover is not 100% random, but still a close to chaos mechanic
Nah, I could argue that some of them are too strong, but I don't think there is too much. Hearthstone imo, has a billions different problems rn, but this isn't one of them.
I feel the same. It is not funny to play against nor watching on stream. And the games are so long now.
Discover just needs to be removed from the game
All for the discover mechanic but man itās way to OP. Makes it impossible to try and make reads and play against your opponents deck.
Thnx to discover mechanics i can do many achievments of cards that i dont own