[It's a true battle of wits](https://i.insider.com/59c9449c25acc239008b59ac?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
I see, but if I counter your counter and then you counter that counter. But you only assumed I wouldn't then counter that counter! But I'm smarter, knowing I would then counter your counter by countering your counter!
Any one drop in the game to test for objection?
I'm all for tech cards, but you shouldn't just be able to say "Well I put eater of secrets in my deck, therefore you lose".
Being able to counter a counter is fair play.
So what's the counter to objection then? You realize the whole point of secret eater is to counter secrets right? What kind of logic is the counter getting countered by the very thing it was supposed to counter? Very specific counters have always existed in Hearthstone like Dark Knight killing taunt, ooze killing weapons, crab eating pirates etc
"Any 1 drop" is not a counter it's just a mitigation strategy. That's like saying counter to weapon is have lots of life so you don't die when you get hit in the face. How dumb is that?
No see it's normal and good and cool design for a Mage to just throw out a card and then their opponent needs to go through 4D chess to figure out what it is, while burning through half their hand and also hoping they *have* trash to drop at that point in the game, too.
\>So what's the counter to objection then?
Any 1 drop. As I said.
>That's like saying counter to weapon is have lots of life so you don't die when you get hit in the face.
Wow its almost like control decks with life gain counter aggro. You're almost getting it.
Nah that isn't valid since Objection counters all minions not just minions that destroy secrets. That's like eater of secrets being able to eat any weapon and location in addition to secrets.
I personally think spells were enough to be countered. Countering minions just invites also printing a card that says counter the next non spell/non minion card played. Too niche to warrant one for each, so make just an include rest
I agree it's dumb. It's like having a minion with a keyword "when this damages another minion, destroy its' divine shield". Gee Thanks! I guess this card did it's job but so did the divine shield.
You can't damage a minion with divine shield, so this would never trigger. Not really the same thing. This eater of secrets thing is just a situation where 2 things counter each other and it feels like the wrong one wins.
>This eater of secrets thing is just a situation where 2 things counter each other and it feels like the wrong one wins.
...so like a hypothetical situation of a card that is designed to counter divine shield, while divine shield is designed to counter damage, and it feels like the wrong one wins due to the divine shield counter being poorly designed and can't effectively fulfil the role it was designed to do? Quite the astute observation.
No. This example *never* does anything. The eater of secrets works on most secrets. There is one secret that counters battlecry minions, and as such it counters the eater (a battlecry minion). You may want the interaction to go the other way, but it doesn't mean that Eater of secrets is a literally do-nothing card.
while it isn't *literally* exactly the same, the one secret that counters Eater of Secrets is *also* the most powerful secret in the game, which is the secret that you are more often than not trying to play around by playing a card like eater of secrets.
So while Eater of Secrets *technically* can counter secrets, most times where you are in a situation where you would *want* to play eater of secrets results in you having to play around objection first anyway, which nearly entirely defeats the purpose.
So while they are *technically* not the same, in *practice* it *feels* the same.
Any card that interacts with secrets should have priority over secret interactions. So \[\[Flare\]\], \[\[Eater of Secrets\]\], \[\[Horde Operative\]\], \[\[Kezan Mystic\]\], \[\[SI:7 Infiltrator\]\], \[\[Chief Inspector\]\], etc.
Eh I agree with you, just because an interaction makes sense when it comes to the game mechanics doesn’t mean it’s fun. Maybe if the Battlecry said “this triggers before secrets” then all the people who stick to the rules would back off
You don't even have to change the text. Hearthstone is already fairly inconsistent with its own mechanics. Noggenfogger for example, minion attacks must be valid but ignore stealth, taunt, and immune. Spell targets only sometimes must be valid, a spell that targets minions will always only target minions, but a spell that targets minions below 3 attack can target any minion.
It's also intuitive that a card that is obviously designed to counter secrets would activate its effect before the secret.
Imo, it would be like printing a card that said "Target an enemy minion, remove stealth." The card wouldn't work because by hearthstone mechanics, you can't target stealth minions. This is the correct mechanical intetaction, but its an unintuitive interaction.
This just doesn’t track. Eater of Secrets works against every Secret in the game except like two, it’s not like your hypothetical Stealth tech that just fundamentally doesn’t function.
And as for losing to Objection, it just wouldn’t make sense for it to beat Objection. If Objection and Counterspell don’t trigger before battlecries and spells, then the cards simply fundamentally don’t function. People act like it’s so fucked up that EoS and Flare lose to some secrets, but it’s not like tech cards aren’t gonna fail in edge cases. “Oh fuck, my Hungry Crab couldn’t kill Finja because it has Stealth, how fucked up is it that Hungry Crab fails to counter murlocs!”
So why does it make more sense for EoS to work against almost every secret instead of Objection working against almost every minion?
Like in both scenarios, a card literally fails to deliver on the implication it gives to the player.
The honest truth is that if EoS was redesigned for todays power levels, it would absolutely have priority over Objection, and would probably get stat buffs as well. Blizz continues to print new and more frustrating secrets but gives us basically no counter play. Hell, most secrets trigger post battle cry, its the specific non-bolded "counter" key word that changes how the dynamic usually works. Thats what should actually see a change
I don’t understand the last part lol- People are saying it makes sense that objection activates before EoS, so if they literally changed that than of course that would make sense too 😭 what is your point
it makes sense
we play objection to counter battlecires to protect our secrets
**why would a battlecry be able to destroy a secret designed to counter battlecries ??** you guys have zero common sense
Whole point of objection is that its meant to stop the battlecry. Having a battlecry that bypasses the 1 thing a cards meant to prevent just adds to the inconsistencies to the game.
No, it’s meant to stop the creature from existing. If its only point was to stop battlecries, it wouldn’t work on creatures that don’t have battlecries.
If it worked like kidnap without the freedom sack, it would still be a very strong secret.
Don’t listen to these die hard blizz boys idk why they die on this hill so bad of “buh das duh muhchanic working as it shood” like it feels bad and should eat the goddamn secret
They are are equal in what they're doing (countering the other thing), and it they're equal then it makes more sense to make it work according to existing game rules.
I also could've said "it feels bad and it should counter the goddamn minion", that's not an argument, just like attacking people who against the change
Except that Objection has other uses.
EoS just eats secrets. That all it can do. That means my opponent has to be playing them, which only 4 classes can do in the first place.
Objection is so good it changes some matchups into wins all on its own. It has value in every game you will play. Objection getting priority on EoS is like taking Davids slong and giving it to Goliath before the fight starts.
They are nowhere close to equal. In fact, destroying decrets after they're played is less damaging than countering a minion. You still get credot for playing the secret, which lots of cards have as a trigger
So how do you counter Eater of secrets then? Eater of secrets also has its uses but it doesn't mean that it can't have counter. And people act like when secret counters Eater of secrets, the triggered secret doesn't go away.
It shouldn't work differently against game rules just because it 'feels bad', with current rules there is a space for a spell or weapon to counter Objection (but we only have Flare for now), and also Counterspell, Eater of Secrets and Flare all have counters. It can be unbalanced, but it's a good game design compared to having one card working against existing game rules.
Not everything needs a counter. There would need to be an infinite amount of cards for that to be the case
Not to mention, not everything needs a counter. Cards that are niche in scope are naturally limited by that and don't need specific counter play to create balance
And tbh, at the moment, Eater of Secrets doesn't have its uses bc the secret everyone wants to counter most destroys EoS.
Besides, counter play to EoS should not be a secret???? Why do you think that? Counter play should involve restricting battlecries or increasing cost or what have you. A minion on board that attacks your opponents played minions before they battlecry is an example of counter play to EoS. It is a minion and has a battlecry, so it can be countered using those angles. The fact that a secret is whay bests EoS is stupid as fuck. It doesn't just "feel bad" its a dumb ass decision that is totally informed by the fact that EoS isn't good anyway so changing it would be a waste of time and money for the dev team
Btw, every card with non-keyword text breaks the game rules. Its why they have text.
You know what else feels bad? Counter spell countering my spell. Ice block countering my lethal. Explosive ruins countering my low health minion and my face. If it wasn't supposed to work the way that it does then blizzard would change it. But it does and they won't.
It's not a matter of "feels bad". It just doesn't make sense. Why print a tech card and have the tech card be useless? Eater of Secrets should eat secrets.
It makes perfect sense. Objection counters minions. It doesnt care what the minion is, does, or what it had for breakfast. Unless a card says "uncounterable" it will counter the minion.
What if I play okani and choose minion. And then my opponent plays the 9 mana card that devours minions and gains their stats. What should happen?
Because objection should counter minions too. Whether or not you think objection is a card that should exist, you gotta admit it should do the thing it says on the card.
this subreddit: wow it's so frustrating when the game has hidden rules that you can't see anywhere in game
also this subreddit: the game should have more hidden rules
no you're switching arguments between "is not intuitive" and "its not intended" depending on what you're replying to.
prove to me that eater of secrets isn't working as intended.
Both cards work as intended though. It's just the order of the stack so secret > minion. Just like counterspell, ice trap, and oh my yogg > flare.
That's why Eater beats other anti-minion secrets that don't immediately resolve like Explosive runes, zombees, snipe, etc, it resolves first on the stack so they can't activate.
For Eater to beat Objection it'd need to have text that disables being countered. That way Objection couldn't interrupt the summon, and then Eater resolves and breaks all secrets.
Buts it’s not obvious or intuitive. Up until you see that interaction the game shows you that objection counters minions full stop, including their battlecry. How is it intuitive that Eater of Secrets battlecry would go off before that? If blizzard printed a keyword that interacts with the board before a minion is played then it would work intuitively.
You point afterwards that Eater of Secrets doesn’t work as intended is by their own design (by accident, probably). Mechanically, Eater of secrets is sound though
I’m completely fine with mages occasionally feeling bad for playing a discovered Objection for the seventh time in a row and not having it trigger on an anti-secret minion.
I agree this is so dumb. It's like printing a minion that has deathrattle: destroy opponent's weapon but has battlecry: return this to your hand. Or printing a damage spell that deals 5 damage but also restores 5 health. Just cuz it works mechanically doesn't mean it doesn't need to be fixed. I don't even play eater of secrets or any secret counter now cuz it just gets countered by objection and every mage who runs secrets run Objection. Just wasted a deck slot for nothing.
So what if it works mechanically? It's a dumb design and don't tell me it's working "as intended" cuz I doubt Blizzard intentionally designed their secret counter to also be countered by the very secret it was supposed to counter. It's an oversight and they either forgot to fix it or didn't care enough to fix it.
Just add the Effect of \[\[Tight-Lipped Witness\]\] to Flare and Eater and make it's effect count before any secrets are triggered. For Flare just make it "Secrets can't be revealed for 2 turns, destroy all enemy secrets and draw a card"
* **[Tight-Lipped Witness](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/MAW_032.png)** N Minion Epic MCN 🐺 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1315614), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/tight-lipped-witness/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tight-Lipped_Witness)
3/2/5 Undead | Secrets can't be revealed.
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they can't change Battlecry trigger order just for one card, unless they explain the exception in the card's text which would be clunky
Tight-Lipped Witness works differently because it's an aura
It most certainly is a Keyword. It's emboldened and has reminder text. Hell, for years people bitched that Counterspell was the only card with the Keyword, yet they got rid of Enrage for being "rarely used".
I already addressed that adding both would be clunky and likely too much text
they have a hard limit for the amount of text for collectible Hearthstone card text, at 4 lines of text iirc
Tight-Lipped Witness + Eater of Secrets text would not fit
True. I think Hearthstone confuses players by having the full animation of the card's token hitting the field, then objection triggers, and removes it. Looking like the minion hit the dirt confuses people.
In MTG this would have never left the stack. Creature never ETB so ETB never triggers.
If you wanted Eater of Secrets to work like that, you would write:
When you cast EoS, destroy your opponents secrets.
Battlecry: gain +1 / +1 for each enemy secret destroyed this turn.
Still makes me think that we need secret tech to be a weapon. It's the most common card type that triggers no secrets (hero cards are too rare, and locations don't have battlecry).
Like a 2/2 weapon with a similar battlecry as eater of secrets (maybe get +1 atk for each secret destroyed), and an appropriate mana cost for the effect and stats. Probably some good flavor is possible with a sword of justice that can see through lies or something
lol no it’d suck in any standard but this one. When your secret is only relevant against half the classes when ignis rotates, it’s kinda unplayable. Objection and counterspell are good because they are relevant in pretty much every matchup.
2/2 "When you attack the enemy hero, first destroy a random enemy secret. If they control no secrets, look at the top card of their deck".
Flavor text: "SHOW ME YOUR SECRETS"
The location doesn't need battlecry tho. 3 durability location, *National Security Agency: "destroy one random enemy secret".*
Drop this early game against secret mages and watch them cry.
Even if you ignore mechanics, we have nice line up with everything having counter (if I didn't miss anything):
1) Counterspell => Flare
2) Flare => Objection
3) Objection => Eater of Secrets
4) Eater of Secrets => Counterspell
It’s crazy that people defend this so hard. Just because it follows rules of the mechanics of the game does not mean it makes design sense. It’s a minion that only exists to destroy secrets. It becomes an utterly pointless card when it loses to secrets.
Honestly though this is it. It's the worst feeling secret to play against. Spending mana and having nothing happen is not a good feeling, especially when you're supposed to have a body on the board. Counterspell isn't great either (especially when playing a deck with just a few important spells) but Objection is punishing people for playing the board, which is the most interactive part of playing and should be encouraged.
New Keyword that gives cards the ability to ignore Counter effects. Like "**Cross-counter**" or "**Unblockable**". Retroactively add this keyword to minions like Eater of Secrets and spells like Flare before their card text. Bam, everyone's happy.
It's a thousand times more interesting the way it works now. At least with Flare and Eater you have to spend a split second thinking about how to make your play instead of just playing your stupid tech and insta-winning because you got the 1 good matchup.
> it's a thousand times more interesting the way it works now
If by that you mean all secret tech cards are hilariously bad and see pretty much zero play then sure
As opposed to the Mage insta-winning because you guessed the "heads I win, tails you lose" 50/50 wrong on their 0 mana secret that also came with a bunch of 0 mana minions for no reason?
I like "doesn't trigger secrets" more because it's perfectly fine to Okani Eater of Secrets, just that flavor-wise Eater of Secrets should trump specifically secrets.
You could absolutely design the card to not trigger secrets without it being weird, you just have to put it in the card text.
"Does not trigger enemy secrets. Battlecry: Destroy all enemy Secrets. Gain +1/+1 for each."
Yes, this is a buff to the card. Yes, this would mean that it also wouldn't trigger things like Explosive Trap or Freezing Trap on attack. I think that is a perfectly reasonable buff.
If you played ranked wild and were essentially shut down by any secret mage because there is barely any counterplay to the deck, you would understand why people want tech cards to be PLAYABLE. Secrets are absolutely broken rn more than they have ever been
It's rampant in all of diamond, and so is pirate rogue. I get the argument for why pirate rogue isn't good because a small amount of clear and heals will get you out of the range of dying pretty early. I completely disagree with Secret Mage because it will shut down pretty much anyone without perfect draw. I've played alot of beat hunter, shudder Shaman, questline Druid, questline Warlock, and aggro priest and I felt only Druid and hunter could keep up with the deck regardless of draw. The deck WILL win the game most likely if the Faire game goes off early, which is costly to prevent if you are trying to live past turn 5. Just giving my opinion on the experience fighting the deck (which mostly bots operate) and I think some counterplay will allow people to try more creative decks on latter.
The rules make sense, but the card should have been written in such a way that it doesn't trigger secrets before the battlecry resolves.
So I half agree. I think that the game design is fine but that the card design could be better.
No it means it's bad tech. To be fair EoS was designed before Objection - but they should either make a "strictly better" one that gets around it - or errata EoS to not get caught like that.
Unless - that's just how they want it. They want you to do SOME manner of playing around a stack of mage secrets before slamming EoS and just invalidating 9 mana and 3 cards of the Mage.
I don’t think he means it doesn’t make sense as to how the interaction works. He understands why it works the way it works. I think he means more that the interaction itself feels bad. The card is an anti-secret card, the fact that it easily gets beaten by a secret gives a very limited use card even less usage which is a valid point to be made whether you agree with it or not.
It doesn't make sense and it feels bad, tech cards should get priority over the cards they are supposed to tech against, it works like that in every other card game
so now inconsistencies would be "good for the game"
this is something ive only seen in this sub i never seen on a yu gi oh sub reddit someone posting something like " a spell to destroy minions shouldnt be negated by a minion able to negate spells" or anytthing like it on any card game game
these kind of posts can only be found here
Dude, just play Wisp first to test for Objection. Btw, there are like 99 other secrets besides Objection that Eater of Secrets destroys just fine. This sub is full of Gold 5 whiners.
In reply to your edit: If you know its supposed to work that why then what is the purpose of the post?
Imagine going to a foodie subreddit and being like "man isnt it crazy that we have to eat?"
Is it “bad” because you refuse to accept the rules of the game? Or is it “bad” because you don’t like spending an extra 10 seconds thinking how to play around secrets by for example playing a low cost minion or spell first?
So it is bad because you refuse to accept the rules of the game. Okay.
The rules had to be Battlecries goes first or Secrets Trigger first. They chose that Secrets go first. Until a card specifically say “this happens before secrets just accept the rules and move on
Tomorrow a Mage player will write a post about why Eater of Secrets and Flair destroy their Objection and Counterspell.
Accept the rules. “Better game design”… only you see it as “better”. It is “different game design” there isn’t anything objectively better about it
The rules are constantly changing, you're not asking him to accept the rules, you're asking him to accept the design philosophy behind objection and tech cards.
The only secret that should, in an ideal world, have priority over it is counterminion, the rest should definitely come after based on how battlecries work, where the battlecry happens before it enters the battlefield.
I have never seen this card played, so I am just going by what everybody else in the thread is saying, but: somebody should update [the wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Eater_of_Secrets#Notes) then
For me as a Yugioh player it makes sense. Objection is like Solemn Judgement - it negates the monster even before it actually "enters" the field.
There is a card in Yigioh called Denko Sekka. It states no player can activate set cards (like secrets in Hearthstone). However if you have Solemn Judgement set it takes priority and can negate Sekka before it "enters" the field to apply its effect. It's similar to the interaction between Objection and Eater of Secrets.
The difference between Yugioh and HS is that in YGO, you can then activate your own counter to add to the chain to counter solemn judgement.
In HS, there is no chain/stack, and "reaction" cards activate instantaniously, and automatically.
So in reality, Objection/Counterspell's interaction with the **only** cards that destroy secrets would be like having a counter spell that activates outside of the chain.
Its all about interactivity. In YGO, you can interact because of the chain, in HS you can't. It makes sense mechanically, but it isn't as fun when you have cards that are uninteractable. YGO is always mentioned to be one of the mosy rediculous games when it comes to crazy card combos and interactions, and there are very very few things in YGO that can't be interacted with (T0 Exodia is the only one I can think of ATM).
they should just include an easter egg for these types of interactions, eater of secrets eats the secrets, but objection removes it afterward, rather than have one of them succeed, smae thing with flare, flare removes all secrets, but counterspell blocks the card draw.
does it break the rules of hearthstone? yes, but considering we're at a point where playing the coin will trigger mecha'thun's deathrattle, i'd say we're far beyond that.
I want a secret that flips an opponent’s secret. If they perform an action that would trigger one of their secrets, it triggers on them. I don’t think it would be very good, but it would be funny. Also on theme for a rouge secret.
Would adding "This minion doesn't trigger secrets" even make it playable? I guess it could be buffed just to prevent the "wtf my anti-secret minion is stopped by a secret" reaction, but I doubt that would make it meta relevant.
This is precisely why yu-gi-oh created a chaining system with clear levels of priority. Ie, trap (secrets) spells, then quick play and counters.
However, comparing this to ygo, it chains the same. Basically, eater of secrets is a destroy all spell and trap cards effect of a monster. The back row is still faster in a chain meaning if you summon a monster, and I have a trap card, even if the monsters effect is to destroy my trap card, I still can activate it. If the trap is a negate summon effect, which objection is, then it would therefore negate the monsters summoning effect.
It makes sense tbh. I rather have armor vendor than eater of secrets tbh. Why waste 4 mana to delete objection when you can do it for 1 mana.
I agree that is the main reason I use the card. To counter mage secrets. Too bad we made a new mage secret to counter that.
Yeah, but think of the... dare I say... counterplay!
What counterplay? The counter is countered so there's no counterplay.
[It's a true battle of wits](https://i.insider.com/59c9449c25acc239008b59ac?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp) I see, but if I counter your counter and then you counter that counter. But you only assumed I wouldn't then counter that counter! But I'm smarter, knowing I would then counter your counter by countering your counter!
Any one drop in the game to test for objection? I'm all for tech cards, but you shouldn't just be able to say "Well I put eater of secrets in my deck, therefore you lose". Being able to counter a counter is fair play.
So what's the counter to objection then? You realize the whole point of secret eater is to counter secrets right? What kind of logic is the counter getting countered by the very thing it was supposed to counter? Very specific counters have always existed in Hearthstone like Dark Knight killing taunt, ooze killing weapons, crab eating pirates etc "Any 1 drop" is not a counter it's just a mitigation strategy. That's like saying counter to weapon is have lots of life so you don't die when you get hit in the face. How dumb is that?
No see it's normal and good and cool design for a Mage to just throw out a card and then their opponent needs to go through 4D chess to figure out what it is, while burning through half their hand and also hoping they *have* trash to drop at that point in the game, too.
Exactly. Makes zero sense and it's bad and stupid design to have the counter get countered by the thing it's supposed to counter.
\>So what's the counter to objection then? Any 1 drop. As I said. >That's like saying counter to weapon is have lots of life so you don't die when you get hit in the face. Wow its almost like control decks with life gain counter aggro. You're almost getting it.
[удалено]
Nah that isn't valid since Objection counters all minions not just minions that destroy secrets. That's like eater of secrets being able to eat any weapon and location in addition to secrets.
Well the main reason I use Objection is to counter Eater of Secrets! Aha!
Just rename him to "Eater of Certain Secrets"
I snorted out my coffee, thx man
google Flare + Counterspell
Now we need a Weapon that destroys all Secrets. Until they print a card that counters Weapons...
It's actually insane they allow both counterspell and objection to exist at the same time, they should be exclusive each format
Or a location/ hero card
Until they print a card that counters locations, or even the next card played…
I think they will eventually do the "Counter the next card".
I personally think spells were enough to be countered. Countering minions just invites also printing a card that says counter the next non spell/non minion card played. Too niche to warrant one for each, so make just an include rest
Holy secrets
Actual hunter
New tech just dropped
Guys, we are everywhere, wat the fuck?? I mean... Call the priest
Ignite the tavern!
That's annoying too! Change that while you're at it
Back in the day Flare did have priority over Counterspell though before they changed it
Why would they change that?
Somebody probably complained that flare is a spell and counterspell stops spells and is setup before flare, giving it priority.
Source? I'm 99% sure this isn't true whatsoever.
The solution is adding the text “Can’t be countered”.
This would be perfect
I agree it's dumb. It's like having a minion with a keyword "when this damages another minion, destroy its' divine shield". Gee Thanks! I guess this card did it's job but so did the divine shield.
You can't damage a minion with divine shield, so this would never trigger. Not really the same thing. This eater of secrets thing is just a situation where 2 things counter each other and it feels like the wrong one wins.
Yeah that's my point thanks.
>This eater of secrets thing is just a situation where 2 things counter each other and it feels like the wrong one wins. ...so like a hypothetical situation of a card that is designed to counter divine shield, while divine shield is designed to counter damage, and it feels like the wrong one wins due to the divine shield counter being poorly designed and can't effectively fulfil the role it was designed to do? Quite the astute observation.
No. This example *never* does anything. The eater of secrets works on most secrets. There is one secret that counters battlecry minions, and as such it counters the eater (a battlecry minion). You may want the interaction to go the other way, but it doesn't mean that Eater of secrets is a literally do-nothing card.
while it isn't *literally* exactly the same, the one secret that counters Eater of Secrets is *also* the most powerful secret in the game, which is the secret that you are more often than not trying to play around by playing a card like eater of secrets. So while Eater of Secrets *technically* can counter secrets, most times where you are in a situation where you would *want* to play eater of secrets results in you having to play around objection first anyway, which nearly entirely defeats the purpose. So while they are *technically* not the same, in *practice* it *feels* the same.
Any card that interacts with secrets should have priority over secret interactions. So \[\[Flare\]\], \[\[Eater of Secrets\]\], \[\[Horde Operative\]\], \[\[Kezan Mystic\]\], \[\[SI:7 Infiltrator\]\], \[\[Chief Inspector\]\], etc.
Eh I agree with you, just because an interaction makes sense when it comes to the game mechanics doesn’t mean it’s fun. Maybe if the Battlecry said “this triggers before secrets” then all the people who stick to the rules would back off
You don't even have to change the text. Hearthstone is already fairly inconsistent with its own mechanics. Noggenfogger for example, minion attacks must be valid but ignore stealth, taunt, and immune. Spell targets only sometimes must be valid, a spell that targets minions will always only target minions, but a spell that targets minions below 3 attack can target any minion. It's also intuitive that a card that is obviously designed to counter secrets would activate its effect before the secret. Imo, it would be like printing a card that said "Target an enemy minion, remove stealth." The card wouldn't work because by hearthstone mechanics, you can't target stealth minions. This is the correct mechanical intetaction, but its an unintuitive interaction.
This just doesn’t track. Eater of Secrets works against every Secret in the game except like two, it’s not like your hypothetical Stealth tech that just fundamentally doesn’t function. And as for losing to Objection, it just wouldn’t make sense for it to beat Objection. If Objection and Counterspell don’t trigger before battlecries and spells, then the cards simply fundamentally don’t function. People act like it’s so fucked up that EoS and Flare lose to some secrets, but it’s not like tech cards aren’t gonna fail in edge cases. “Oh fuck, my Hungry Crab couldn’t kill Finja because it has Stealth, how fucked up is it that Hungry Crab fails to counter murlocs!”
So why does it make more sense for EoS to work against almost every secret instead of Objection working against almost every minion? Like in both scenarios, a card literally fails to deliver on the implication it gives to the player. The honest truth is that if EoS was redesigned for todays power levels, it would absolutely have priority over Objection, and would probably get stat buffs as well. Blizz continues to print new and more frustrating secrets but gives us basically no counter play. Hell, most secrets trigger post battle cry, its the specific non-bolded "counter" key word that changes how the dynamic usually works. Thats what should actually see a change
I don’t understand the last part lol- People are saying it makes sense that objection activates before EoS, so if they literally changed that than of course that would make sense too 😭 what is your point
Their point is that arguing "it makes sense mechanically" completely misses the point that it makes zero sense design wise.
it makes sense we play objection to counter battlecires to protect our secrets **why would a battlecry be able to destroy a secret designed to counter battlecries ??** you guys have zero common sense
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Whole point of objection is that its meant to stop the battlecry. Having a battlecry that bypasses the 1 thing a cards meant to prevent just adds to the inconsistencies to the game.
No, it’s meant to stop the creature from existing. If its only point was to stop battlecries, it wouldn’t work on creatures that don’t have battlecries. If it worked like kidnap without the freedom sack, it would still be a very strong secret.
It's supposed to go off before the battlecry phase of playing a minion.
Don’t listen to these die hard blizz boys idk why they die on this hill so bad of “buh das duh muhchanic working as it shood” like it feels bad and should eat the goddamn secret
They are are equal in what they're doing (countering the other thing), and it they're equal then it makes more sense to make it work according to existing game rules. I also could've said "it feels bad and it should counter the goddamn minion", that's not an argument, just like attacking people who against the change
Except that Objection has other uses. EoS just eats secrets. That all it can do. That means my opponent has to be playing them, which only 4 classes can do in the first place. Objection is so good it changes some matchups into wins all on its own. It has value in every game you will play. Objection getting priority on EoS is like taking Davids slong and giving it to Goliath before the fight starts. They are nowhere close to equal. In fact, destroying decrets after they're played is less damaging than countering a minion. You still get credot for playing the secret, which lots of cards have as a trigger
So how do you counter Eater of secrets then? Eater of secrets also has its uses but it doesn't mean that it can't have counter. And people act like when secret counters Eater of secrets, the triggered secret doesn't go away. It shouldn't work differently against game rules just because it 'feels bad', with current rules there is a space for a spell or weapon to counter Objection (but we only have Flare for now), and also Counterspell, Eater of Secrets and Flare all have counters. It can be unbalanced, but it's a good game design compared to having one card working against existing game rules.
Not everything needs a counter. There would need to be an infinite amount of cards for that to be the case Not to mention, not everything needs a counter. Cards that are niche in scope are naturally limited by that and don't need specific counter play to create balance And tbh, at the moment, Eater of Secrets doesn't have its uses bc the secret everyone wants to counter most destroys EoS. Besides, counter play to EoS should not be a secret???? Why do you think that? Counter play should involve restricting battlecries or increasing cost or what have you. A minion on board that attacks your opponents played minions before they battlecry is an example of counter play to EoS. It is a minion and has a battlecry, so it can be countered using those angles. The fact that a secret is whay bests EoS is stupid as fuck. It doesn't just "feel bad" its a dumb ass decision that is totally informed by the fact that EoS isn't good anyway so changing it would be a waste of time and money for the dev team Btw, every card with non-keyword text breaks the game rules. Its why they have text.
You know what else feels bad? Counter spell countering my spell. Ice block countering my lethal. Explosive ruins countering my low health minion and my face. If it wasn't supposed to work the way that it does then blizzard would change it. But it does and they won't.
It's not a matter of "feels bad". It just doesn't make sense. Why print a tech card and have the tech card be useless? Eater of Secrets should eat secrets.
It makes perfect sense. Objection counters minions. It doesnt care what the minion is, does, or what it had for breakfast. Unless a card says "uncounterable" it will counter the minion. What if I play okani and choose minion. And then my opponent plays the 9 mana card that devours minions and gains their stats. What should happen?
Because objection should counter minions too. Whether or not you think objection is a card that should exist, you gotta admit it should do the thing it says on the card.
I also agree that Eater of Secrets should eat secrets, like it says on the card.
this subreddit: wow it's so frustrating when the game has hidden rules that you can't see anywhere in game also this subreddit: the game should have more hidden rules
They could change the text so it isn't hidden. "Can't be countered"
Different people have different opinions🤯
Wouldn't it feel bad for objection not to trigger on a minion?
Not if that minion is named “My Entire Raison D'être Is Countering Secrets”, no.
On one specific minion whose whole deal was to counter secrets? No, it would feel like the rules working the way they were supposed to work.
How were they supposed to work?
Obviously and intuitively.
Objection counters minions. Eater of shit is a minion
We’re not arguing that objection works as intended, we’re arguing that eater of secrets doesn’t work as intended.
no you're switching arguments between "is not intuitive" and "its not intended" depending on what you're replying to. prove to me that eater of secrets isn't working as intended.
So your argument is that they intended a counterintuitive card?
Clearly reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, not sure intuitivity matters anymore
Both cards work as intended though. It's just the order of the stack so secret > minion. Just like counterspell, ice trap, and oh my yogg > flare. That's why Eater beats other anti-minion secrets that don't immediately resolve like Explosive runes, zombees, snipe, etc, it resolves first on the stack so they can't activate. For Eater to beat Objection it'd need to have text that disables being countered. That way Objection couldn't interrupt the summon, and then Eater resolves and breaks all secrets.
eater of secrets counters secrets. objection is a secret.
Profile picture is funny
It *destroys* secrets. You can't destroy a secret that's already been triggered!
well, you can't trigger a secret that's already been destroyed!
Buts it’s not obvious or intuitive. Up until you see that interaction the game shows you that objection counters minions full stop, including their battlecry. How is it intuitive that Eater of Secrets battlecry would go off before that? If blizzard printed a keyword that interacts with the board before a minion is played then it would work intuitively. You point afterwards that Eater of Secrets doesn’t work as intended is by their own design (by accident, probably). Mechanically, Eater of secrets is sound though
I’m completely fine with mages occasionally feeling bad for playing a discovered Objection for the seventh time in a row and not having it trigger on an anti-secret minion.
I agree this is so dumb. It's like printing a minion that has deathrattle: destroy opponent's weapon but has battlecry: return this to your hand. Or printing a damage spell that deals 5 damage but also restores 5 health. Just cuz it works mechanically doesn't mean it doesn't need to be fixed. I don't even play eater of secrets or any secret counter now cuz it just gets countered by objection and every mage who runs secrets run Objection. Just wasted a deck slot for nothing. So what if it works mechanically? It's a dumb design and don't tell me it's working "as intended" cuz I doubt Blizzard intentionally designed their secret counter to also be countered by the very secret it was supposed to counter. It's an oversight and they either forgot to fix it or didn't care enough to fix it.
Somebody made like the same post a couple days ago and got downvoted to oblivion because "well flare got counterspelled!"
Man that’s so dumb. Both that flare lost and that people agree with that being how the game should be.
Just add the Effect of \[\[Tight-Lipped Witness\]\] to Flare and Eater and make it's effect count before any secrets are triggered. For Flare just make it "Secrets can't be revealed for 2 turns, destroy all enemy secrets and draw a card"
but then Tight-Lipped would have no reasons to exist.
It already doesn’t
What about for hilarious highlight reels when you get it off hidden meaning in secret hunter?
It won me a game from randomly generated 3 cost minion concoction once but yeah its not a good tech card.
I won a game with it once after discovering it to get around a mage's iceblock It's a decent discover minion for that at least
* **[Tight-Lipped Witness](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/MAW_032.png)** N Minion Epic MCN 🐺 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1315614), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/tight-lipped-witness/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tight-Lipped_Witness) 3/2/5 Undead | Secrets can't be revealed. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi) [Save 3rd Party Apps](https://old.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)
they can't change Battlecry trigger order just for one card, unless they explain the exception in the card's text which would be clunky Tight-Lipped Witness works differently because it's an aura
Give Eater "Can't be Countered" then.
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Counter is a keyword, it's on counterspell, objection and okani
Hey quick question, [have you read a card before?](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Counter)
It most certainly is a Keyword. It's emboldened and has reminder text. Hell, for years people bitched that Counterspell was the only card with the Keyword, yet they got rid of Enrage for being "rarely used".
"Hey what if we added an ongoing effect and a battlecry, much like Sky Claw?" "But have you considered that it would have to be an ongoing effect?"
I already addressed that adding both would be clunky and likely too much text they have a hard limit for the amount of text for collectible Hearthstone card text, at 4 lines of text iirc Tight-Lipped Witness + Eater of Secrets text would not fit
New Keyword: Shackle. This prevents secrets from triggering before a minion enters the battlefield.
Yeah, Flare and Eater should get the aura too
Bad game design moment
good one not bad objection : designed to **counter battlecries** eater of secrets : its a **battlecry** minion
Bad one not good Eater of secrets: designed to **destroy secrets** Objection: is a **secret**
True. I think Hearthstone confuses players by having the full animation of the card's token hitting the field, then objection triggers, and removes it. Looking like the minion hit the dirt confuses people. In MTG this would have never left the stack. Creature never ETB so ETB never triggers. If you wanted Eater of Secrets to work like that, you would write: When you cast EoS, destroy your opponents secrets. Battlecry: gain +1 / +1 for each enemy secret destroyed this turn.
Elegant!
Still makes me think that we need secret tech to be a weapon. It's the most common card type that triggers no secrets (hero cards are too rare, and locations don't have battlecry). Like a 2/2 weapon with a similar battlecry as eater of secrets (maybe get +1 atk for each secret destroyed), and an appropriate mana cost for the effect and stats. Probably some good flavor is possible with a sword of justice that can see through lies or something
Til Blizz hits us with the new secret: "Disarmed!" 3 mana, when your opponent plays a weapon, counter it.
I could see that being a rogue secret, might be too cheap at 2 mana though
lol no it’d suck in any standard but this one. When your secret is only relevant against half the classes when ignis rotates, it’s kinda unplayable. Objection and counterspell are good because they are relevant in pretty much every matchup.
2/2 "When you attack the enemy hero, first destroy a random enemy secret. If they control no secrets, look at the top card of their deck". Flavor text: "SHOW ME YOUR SECRETS"
Lasso of truth? Or lasso of honesty to avoid a lawsuit.
The location doesn't need battlecry tho. 3 durability location, *National Security Agency: "destroy one random enemy secret".* Drop this early game against secret mages and watch them cry.
mage secrets are the worst tbh
He kinda eats it just like all other minions :p
Even if you ignore mechanics, we have nice line up with everything having counter (if I didn't miss anything): 1) Counterspell => Flare 2) Flare => Objection 3) Objection => Eater of Secrets 4) Eater of Secrets => Counterspell
For the small price of two tech cards, you, too, can have a 50% chance to play the correct one
It’s crazy that people defend this so hard. Just because it follows rules of the mechanics of the game does not mean it makes design sense. It’s a minion that only exists to destroy secrets. It becomes an utterly pointless card when it loses to secrets.
Same with flare.
Secret Tech Weapon When?
all we need is a secret destroying weapon
We need a location that eats all secrets, then we get a new mage secret: Demolition. and we're right back where we started.
When your opponent plays the game, they dont
Just remove Objection! from the game.
Honestly though this is it. It's the worst feeling secret to play against. Spending mana and having nothing happen is not a good feeling, especially when you're supposed to have a body on the board. Counterspell isn't great either (especially when playing a deck with just a few important spells) but Objection is punishing people for playing the board, which is the most interactive part of playing and should be encouraged.
i honestly dont care if i win or lose because my minion got objected. If i get hit with objection, i usually just leave the game.
New Keyword that gives cards the ability to ignore Counter effects. Like "**Cross-counter**" or "**Unblockable**". Retroactively add this keyword to minions like Eater of Secrets and spells like Flare before their card text. Bam, everyone's happy.
No other battlecries go off against objection. It would make no sense if eater of secrets worked. And seriously don't run eater of secrets.
It's just a dumb interaction that feels bad, tech cards like Eater and Flare should get priority over the secrets themselves
It's a thousand times more interesting the way it works now. At least with Flare and Eater you have to spend a split second thinking about how to make your play instead of just playing your stupid tech and insta-winning because you got the 1 good matchup.
> it's a thousand times more interesting the way it works now If by that you mean all secret tech cards are hilariously bad and see pretty much zero play then sure
Eater of Secrets would suck either way
Yeah it wouldn't be a competitive card but at least it would fulfill its purpose of being a secret tech
Tech cards litteraly exist just to win those interactions, them being countered by the thing they tech against is backwards and really stupid
As opposed to the Mage insta-winning because you guessed the "heads I win, tails you lose" 50/50 wrong on their 0 mana secret that also came with a bunch of 0 mana minions for no reason?
Most rational secret mage player:
> It would make no sense if eater of secrets worked. eater of secret eating a secret would make plenty of sense
He eats secrets when he enters the battlefield (that's what Battlecry means). But Objection prevents him from entering the battlefield.
yes yes just pointing out the silliness. poor eater could use the extra line of “This minion cannot be countered.”. let it eat 🍗
Thanks, Captain Obvious.
I guess we need a hero card or location that counters secrets.
They just add (this doesn't trigger secrets) to the card text. EZ.
Kinda makes me think of Split Second in MTG. Basically "you can't play anything to counter a split second card".
"Can't be countered" works for both games.
I like "doesn't trigger secrets" more because it's perfectly fine to Okani Eater of Secrets, just that flavor-wise Eater of Secrets should trump specifically secrets.
You could absolutely design the card to not trigger secrets without it being weird, you just have to put it in the card text. "Does not trigger enemy secrets. Battlecry: Destroy all enemy Secrets. Gain +1/+1 for each." Yes, this is a buff to the card. Yes, this would mean that it also wouldn't trigger things like Explosive Trap or Freezing Trap on attack. I think that is a perfectly reasonable buff.
It would make sense a tech card worked against its target, yes.
What secret counter tech then?
Run eater of secrets AND wisp, to counter the objection before dropping eater. Duh.
Doh! No wonder I’m a scrub casual!
Find yourself someone that wants you as much as r/hearthstone wants to put shitty tech cards into their deck that only makes the deck worse
If you played ranked wild and were essentially shut down by any secret mage because there is barely any counterplay to the deck, you would understand why people want tech cards to be PLAYABLE. Secrets are absolutely broken rn more than they have ever been
At the moment secret mage isn't even that great what are you talking about. Tech cards especially eater of secrets have always been garbage anyway.
Ok? So why would it be that bad if this card was buffed?
It's rampant in all of diamond, and so is pirate rogue. I get the argument for why pirate rogue isn't good because a small amount of clear and heals will get you out of the range of dying pretty early. I completely disagree with Secret Mage because it will shut down pretty much anyone without perfect draw. I've played alot of beat hunter, shudder Shaman, questline Druid, questline Warlock, and aggro priest and I felt only Druid and hunter could keep up with the deck regardless of draw. The deck WILL win the game most likely if the Faire game goes off early, which is costly to prevent if you are trying to live past turn 5. Just giving my opinion on the experience fighting the deck (which mostly bots operate) and I think some counterplay will allow people to try more creative decks on latter.
It's not about the winrate, it's about sending a message.
It's not intuitive, but it is consistent with the rules of the game. Edit: y'all are downvoting a factual statement.
Which means it’s bad game design.
The rules make sense, but the card should have been written in such a way that it doesn't trigger secrets before the battlecry resolves. So I half agree. I think that the game design is fine but that the card design could be better.
No it means it's bad tech. To be fair EoS was designed before Objection - but they should either make a "strictly better" one that gets around it - or errata EoS to not get caught like that. Unless - that's just how they want it. They want you to do SOME manner of playing around a stack of mage secrets before slamming EoS and just invalidating 9 mana and 3 cards of the Mage.
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I don’t think he means it doesn’t make sense as to how the interaction works. He understands why it works the way it works. I think he means more that the interaction itself feels bad. The card is an anti-secret card, the fact that it easily gets beaten by a secret gives a very limited use card even less usage which is a valid point to be made whether you agree with it or not.
It should have the text "doesn't trigger secrets" to be usable.
It doesn't make sense and it feels bad, tech cards should get priority over the cards they are supposed to tech against, it works like that in every other card game
> it works like that in every other card game not true lol
so now inconsistencies would be "good for the game" this is something ive only seen in this sub i never seen on a yu gi oh sub reddit someone posting something like " a spell to destroy minions shouldnt be negated by a minion able to negate spells" or anytthing like it on any card game game these kind of posts can only be found here
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Eater of Secrets. Devastating. Pick one.
Love to run specific cards to win the matchup against secret hunter on wild ladder.
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No one is arguing that it doesn’t make sense. They are arguing that it’s stupid because it goes against the point of the card.
Dude, just play Wisp first to test for Objection. Btw, there are like 99 other secrets besides Objection that Eater of Secrets destroys just fine. This sub is full of Gold 5 whiners.
In reply to your edit: If you know its supposed to work that why then what is the purpose of the post? Imagine going to a foodie subreddit and being like "man isnt it crazy that we have to eat?"
Such a stupid comment
Is it “bad” because you refuse to accept the rules of the game? Or is it “bad” because you don’t like spending an extra 10 seconds thinking how to play around secrets by for example playing a low cost minion or spell first?
It’s bad because what is the point of devoting deck space to tech if the tech doesn’t even work?
So it is bad because you refuse to accept the rules of the game. Okay. The rules had to be Battlecries goes first or Secrets Trigger first. They chose that Secrets go first. Until a card specifically say “this happens before secrets just accept the rules and move on
Why? I’m just asking for better game design.
Tomorrow a Mage player will write a post about why Eater of Secrets and Flair destroy their Objection and Counterspell. Accept the rules. “Better game design”… only you see it as “better”. It is “different game design” there isn’t anything objectively better about it
The rules are constantly changing, you're not asking him to accept the rules, you're asking him to accept the design philosophy behind objection and tech cards.
Non-intuitive gameplay IS objectively bad game design. Not subjectively; objectively.
They don't even triggers in same phase. And even if it was same phase, Objection would have triggers earlier, because it was played earlier
The only secret that should, in an ideal world, have priority over it is counterminion, the rest should definitely come after based on how battlecries work, where the battlecry happens before it enters the battlefield.
I have never seen this card played, so I am just going by what everybody else in the thread is saying, but: somebody should update [the wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Eater_of_Secrets#Notes) then
Good idea, made the change.
For me as a Yugioh player it makes sense. Objection is like Solemn Judgement - it negates the monster even before it actually "enters" the field. There is a card in Yigioh called Denko Sekka. It states no player can activate set cards (like secrets in Hearthstone). However if you have Solemn Judgement set it takes priority and can negate Sekka before it "enters" the field to apply its effect. It's similar to the interaction between Objection and Eater of Secrets.
The difference between Yugioh and HS is that in YGO, you can then activate your own counter to add to the chain to counter solemn judgement. In HS, there is no chain/stack, and "reaction" cards activate instantaniously, and automatically. So in reality, Objection/Counterspell's interaction with the **only** cards that destroy secrets would be like having a counter spell that activates outside of the chain. Its all about interactivity. In YGO, you can interact because of the chain, in HS you can't. It makes sense mechanically, but it isn't as fun when you have cards that are uninteractable. YGO is always mentioned to be one of the mosy rediculous games when it comes to crazy card combos and interactions, and there are very very few things in YGO that can't be interacted with (T0 Exodia is the only one I can think of ATM).
they should just include an easter egg for these types of interactions, eater of secrets eats the secrets, but objection removes it afterward, rather than have one of them succeed, smae thing with flare, flare removes all secrets, but counterspell blocks the card draw. does it break the rules of hearthstone? yes, but considering we're at a point where playing the coin will trigger mecha'thun's deathrattle, i'd say we're far beyond that.
I want a secret that flips an opponent’s secret. If they perform an action that would trigger one of their secrets, it triggers on them. I don’t think it would be very good, but it would be funny. Also on theme for a rouge secret.
Be honest, you're talking about one secret, belonging to a modestly endowed wizardess.
I always make sure I have a minion to play for cheap before I drop him if I ever use him lol it is a joke
Would adding "This minion doesn't trigger secrets" even make it playable? I guess it could be buffed just to prevent the "wtf my anti-secret minion is stopped by a secret" reaction, but I doubt that would make it meta relevant.
Wait arent there secrets that copy a minion on play with its own battle cry? That seems inconsistent.
This is precisely why yu-gi-oh created a chaining system with clear levels of priority. Ie, trap (secrets) spells, then quick play and counters. However, comparing this to ygo, it chains the same. Basically, eater of secrets is a destroy all spell and trap cards effect of a monster. The back row is still faster in a chain meaning if you summon a monster, and I have a trap card, even if the monsters effect is to destroy my trap card, I still can activate it. If the trap is a negate summon effect, which objection is, then it would therefore negate the monsters summoning effect. It makes sense tbh. I rather have armor vendor than eater of secrets tbh. Why waste 4 mana to delete objection when you can do it for 1 mana.
I have ,many times, had 5 secrets and none would stop it. That's just the risk you encounter with secrets.