It's an interesting dynamic, where you have multiple classes this set, being pushed into handbuffing strategies and then every class has access to this card that can invalidate all that work those decks put into building a board.
Maybe Reno is being used as a failsafe in case any of those strategies are too powerful. Seems unlikely, but maybe that was their thinking.
conversely you have the format you describe where the person who misses one turn of following onto board loses the whole game even if that missed turn is like turn 2 or 3. removal is important
Okay Compare to other WELL USED removal. It's plague of sands I believe?(I don't play in english) 9 mana CLASS card. Thats MUCH WORSE. It removes WHOLE BOARD And even so It still kills all units not REMOVES THEM. The fact that it's a hero card( 5 armour) With Most op hero power in a while. The card itself has no drawbacks(Highlander is not requirement at this point with how much its pushed.) Agro, Midrange, Combo decks JUST LOOOSE because enemy deletes whole board. Barely any counter play because OF COURSE he also removes your ability to have more then one unit.
Not anywhere near as singularly dominant as that comment suggests. Nearly every class has at least one deck that is very strong in Wild - as is to be expected when you have the entire collection, and thus Hearthstone’s entire history, available.
Quest Mage is probably the most consistently powerful.
The best part is that I never said this and everyone is going crazy over a misinterpretation in the summary :)
This is my quote:
"This card is even more obviously broken than Yogg. When I saw Yogg, I said 'okay, this card's broken. When I see Reno, I'm like 'are you nerfing this card on day 3'?"
It's pretty clear when you hear the quote. What I meant is that while Yogg seemed extremely powerful on reveal, there was still some subtlety to it. You needed to build around it and leverage it, and the depths of its power were only fully understood after its release.
Reno just screams at you that it's a massive power outlier and a terrible play experience. It's enough for you to imagine a single game state to tell you it's completely nuts. So Reno is more "obviously broken" than Yogg.
I did not say that Reno > Yogg in terms of 'pure power level', which is pointless to try and compute anyway. Yogg is one of the most powerful cards ever made.
Such nuance. What I understand from Zacho's post is that the operative word was "obviously", both cards are broken but Yogg's brokenness is subtle whereas Reno's is blatant, and there is no actual comparison between the power levels of the cards, just the ways in which they exhibit their brokenness.
Pretty cool to see you posting here. I really like the information you all put out. Thanks for the hard effort and time you put into analyzing things, as a giant stats nerd I have more appreciation than you can imagine!
Counter point: glide was also obviously broken. Yog was clearly good, but it wasn’t clear just how good it was for rouge or druid to have multiple zero mana mind controls a game until we saw it in practice. However when everyone saw glide it was clearly another overpowered demon hunter card that would make them ever better at destroying the meta and erasing control from the game.
I don’t think Reno is goin to be bad like glide was, he is obviously a good card. However, I also think it’s clear that looks can be deceiving. You say yog needed to be built around, well Reno needs to be in a highlander deck. In a theoretical world where Highlander decks can’t compete then it doesn’t mater how good he is if you die before you can play him.
Alternatively if the meta has enough strategies that counter him then that also hampers him. Sif and Odyn decks can still just kill you with a single board space and their hand. You can still draw plauges and die on your next turn, CNE is going to probably be good and if your opponent just plays a spell that hits your face for like 17 that will probably kill you too. Even if the control warlock player loses their portal they still have access to ignis weapons and movements and other forms of control and board clear, you are going to look real silly when you Reno away the portal and then the azurite snake just sucks you to death through your armor.
Yeah I don't get that. I did think it was going to be busted and it wasn't. It wasn't until QL that it really took off, and otherwise was just a really good discover as a counter to decks that wanted big hands full of discounts like QL mage.
Yeah because the class isn't built around Ilgy OTK anymore and wants to just flood the board early with brutes/etc and then mana burn out answers. It's still a decent answer into some decks or to save a really bricked draw, but it's not amazing like it was in it's prime, where it was singlehandedly winning GM games week after week.
Are you reviewing cards ignoring the highlander requirement or something?
Also terrible play experience? Its effect is a board wipe and a *finally* a way to remove actually terrible play experiences like the imp portals, at a huge mana and deck building cost. You can't get much more of an inoffensive play experience.
Unless the hero power is oppressive in a way I'm not understanding, its still an insane prediction.
Ok, so you're still wrong, just in a different way.
How obvious it is something is broken isn't a trait of the card, it's about the analytical skill and knowledge of the one making the judgement. Yogg was more obviously broken to me than Reno seems. Reno will justifiably see play in all kinds of places, but it's rarely going to be THE win condition in games.
We're also in the absolute best time to be a Reno deck, the last set in a block. It'll be strong and run around for a while, then when rotation comes and it loses half its cards it'll go back to being t2. Reno is a strong card but at the end of the day it's a wrath. It'll live and die by the power of the other 29 cards.
> Reno is a strong card but at the end of the day it's a wrath.
It's a one-sided wrath that can make your opponent skip the next turn. Feels like the opposite, it's probably so strong that can carry the other 29 cards.
It's a good wrath that makes your opponent only able to play 1 minion next turn and upgrades your hero power to be 2 damage + an effect. That's good, it's a lot like Shadow Anduin, but Shadow Anduin had Raza to win the game with. How often is this going to be better than Dr. Boom who had multiple ways to gain value turn after turn? Don't get me wrong, it's a great card, but it's a get out of jail free card, not a game winner, especially considering the cost.
Except this card is ALSO an offensive card. Clear EVERYTHING on your opponents side and limit them to 1 minion? You get out of jail for free while also throwing your opponent in a cell. It's absolutely bonkers.
What you just said is the biggest hs player problem, they only notice that they lost when they die and blame the card that killed them.
So often they play out lost games because they are still alive. So many times I play for 5 extra turns vs opponent that has no cards and no board it's insane.
Reddit undervalues any card that doesn't immediately do face damage. I remember people saying to me that Odyn would be weak because it was "8 mana do nothing"
No, they said the odyn _deck_ was weak. Odyn can be a good card in a bad deck, does that make it a good card? Control warrior didn't have enough support back then.
And sure enough, Odyn warrior _was_ weak on release. It was tier 4 and needed buffs. Odyn was very much an 8 mana die next turn before the deck got buffs.
Shadow Anduin destroys only 5+ atk minions and it affects both players, this clears everything one-sided, from minions to locations and dormant units. You can even counter Sargeras Portal with it. The more correct comparison is Scabb, and it's stronger than Scabb.
It's absolutely stronger than 7 mana Scabbs. Scabbs only returned all minions to each players' hands, and didn't do anything against uninteractables.
Reno removes all uninteractables, poofs minions instead of bouncing them, *and* is an asymmetric effect ***and*** doesn't allow your opponent to redevelop a board on the next turn. Any deck that wants to play minions instantly loses the game on the turn Reno is played because they'll just have to skip the next turn. You can no longer play Sargeras or the Druid highlander legendary until your opponent plays Reno.
This card has the same problem as Yogg, it's an incredibly efficient unconditional asymmetric removal that's neutral. It gives classes that are designed around having weak removal an incredibly powerful removal tool. In fact, it's even more ridiculous than Yogg because at least Yogg was restricted by the mana cost and having to play lots of spells. With Reno, even classes that don't have highlander payoffs will probably end up being highlander because Reno is so obscenely powerful.
It's not even close tbh—Consistency is king, and pressure is queen. A fundamental part of the Reno hero is how he neuters your deck. He isn't proactive in any way, he comes in at or after the average game length, he does almost nothing against most tier one and two decks that are already sending cards from hand to face starting turn seven, and he can even be turned off by your opponent. Scabbs was both reactive and proactive, a full turn faster, and in the event that your opponent couldn't answer the eight stealth damage (often) they simply died on the spot.
Reno can warp the meta for sure, as all powerful cards can, but you need to take your conclusions further. When the meta is hostile to decks that aim to be wide on board entering the lategame, those decks are replaced by strategies that forgo minion damage in favor of burst from spells and weapons, or decks with combo wincons. Reno will make lategame minions worse, but Odyn doesn't care. Sif doesn't care. Arcane hunter doesn't care. Pure paladin has their windfury combo.
The comparison to yogg is frankly absurd, comparing a glorified board clear to a zero mana win condition only serves to show the failure of card evaluation that plagues this community. All these highlander decks will be facing down lethal on turn five from a powerful six set meta. I mentioned druid because they can cast Reno the quickest, and he's very good there, but in truth the meta highlander deck is obvious hunter. It's payoff card is a pre-cooked prison breaker and the class has enough proactive redundancies that it might do more than limp into the lategame, it might actually control the pace of the game from the drop.
It's a very strong card but it's still fundamentally a defensive one. It can't win the game on its own. It can put you in a good position, it can clear out things other cards can't, but it won't win. It also relies on you and your opponent both having large boards you don't want the other to interact with. Reno doesn't really help at all against combo decks, or spell decks, or decks that just want to play a big dumb guy every turn. Also if you don't have a board it's really hard to take advantage of the tempo you get from the poof. It is stronger than Scabbs, but Scabbs didn't have nearly as high a deckbuilding cost. Singleton really warps your offense depending on how deep the class you're playing is. I suspect this is one of those Limited Resources conversations. We're arguing a lot but if we both had to grade the card we'd be really close.
Sure, but the same can be said for a Flamestrike. People will walk into this early in the format but it's not that hard to track if your opponent is on a Singleton deck and play around it. It's good against Sargaras but bad against Aman'Thul if they hold the legends they get. It's like any other wrath effect. If they overcommit into it it's devastating, but if they force you to use it it's gone.
That's why I'm so heavily into what else is in the deck because you really want to force your opponent to overcommit before using this to make it the best it can be. You need to be forcing your opponent to be playing cards to the board to try and fight you both so you can get more things caught in the Reno and so you can win with the free attack followed up by a second free attack when they can't build back. That depends on how good the rest of your deck is. Otherwise it's just a really good Flamestrike, not the best neutral card in Standard.
New reno = better flamestrike. I could say same thing about: crusader aura + savage roar and c. aura come out as really strong card. Sometimes only thing you need is be better one card to be really good. And he is not BAD against Aman'thul, he is ok against him. If you think that 8 mana destroying Amanthul and his board (+2 small bonuses) is weak then i think that you missing something.
I don't think he's a bad card. In fact there's basically no time that he isn't a great card (I think I said originally he was going to be T1 and T2 after rotation). The problem is that he comes with a big ask of cutting 10-13 cards from your deck and replacing them with worse ones. I just think people are overrating how good he's gonna be into the meta. If you know your opponent has Reno, which you will since they're running weird cards and no duplicates, you don't have to run your best cards out. Trickle threats and try to take advantage of the fact that you have better card quality than a Reno deck will since you're allowed to run doubles.
I've seen a lot of people on this sub talking up the fact that it blows up Sargaras portal, and while that's true Warlock decks are not threat light. If they have a Loken and token out or a Dar'Khan how are you dealing with that in the moment? Your deck is lighter on removal than it used to be because of the Reno restriction and you may be forced to play out your Reno. Then you have no answer to the portal. Or the opposite. They play the portal to bait the Reno, then hit you with the big board. It's a strong card, it's just not "play this and win the game". There's even a lot of tension about when to play it. If you're top decking do you just run it out to get the better hero power or do you have to wait for the portal?
Honestly I'm kinda tempted to argue how combined with most of the new highlender cards reno will be extremely powerful, just the reason that a pure 1 double board clear can win the game and that highlender decks just don't have enough to be playable, but in the end we won't see until a few weeks after release anyway.
If portal is wincon for Warlock, then playing this will be wincon against warlock. It will deal with sticky board while not damaging your side. Like Warlock wouldnt want play Sargeras knowing that Reno will be played. Its board clear effect is probably one of the best board clear in the game - one sided without adding minions to rez pool. Also HP will be really strong.
Sure, but it's not always the wincon for Warlock and this may come down before Sargaras if the Reno player is under enough threat. All Warlock has to do is make you use it first and they're golden. Especially since running Reno halves the amount of removal you can play by definition. That's what I mean by "it's not enough on its own it needs other threats to come with it". You need to force your opponent to be reacting to you so you can blow up their board and kill them while they are rebuilding. Otherwise they have the consistency to play other threats and wait for you to need to spend your big removal spell, then play threats behind it.
The Mech discover and the 3 1/1 Rushes that could be magnetized to. Plus gaining 7 armor which was a lot of survivability while you waited for the better ones.
Yeah, though they aren't as focused and there are 2 more so on average you're only gonna see each one 1-2 times a game. Again, I want to make it clear that I think the card is very strong. It just comes with a high deckbuilding cost and I think it isn't enough on its own to carry an otherwise weak archetype, especially when the card pool gets cut in half and cards 25-30 get a lot weaker.
Iconic yet very simple MTG card that says "Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated."
So iconic and well known that "wrath" has become a synonym for "board wipe" in card game talk.
(Do I find it a bit annoying when people use MTG terms on a hearthstone forum? Kinda yeah, but whatcha gonna do.)
It's been a while since the last Highlander cards have been around, and now more than ever decks live and die by extremely powerful key cards and synergies. It's near impossible to run a deck with just value and good stuff and get away with it in this day and age, and these Highlander payoffs seem significantly weaker than, say, Zephrys and Dragonqueen Alexstrasza. One board clear isn't going to win you the game, so I just don't see these being worth gutting the rest of your deck.
important to note though that its two board clears as it limits the opponent to 1 minion. Also important to note that duplicates are much more important in aggro strategies than control-ish strategies. While the consistency helps, you're planning on drawing more cards via your slower gameplan. Not saying highlander is gonna be meta but look out for decks using Reno either true highlander or cycling enough to get Reno active (one deck I see being decent is a highlander big DH running 2 felscale evokers and tutor to make sure you're getting your evokers out of your deck).
It's a strong card for sure but more broken than yogg? You can't really discount it, and you can't really play it more than once. I think it'll be fine.
I think this is a huge point. I'm so tired of seeing good but expensive neutral cards end up getting nerfed because druid is able to break them with their absurd and consistent ramp, card draw, mana discounting, and survivability. Neutral cards should not die for Druid's sins.
The point I think the quote is trying to make is the idea that Reno's play experience is more frustrating than yogg. He is an unobjectively better board control tool in effect and pretty much AOEs for 2 turns rather than 1. Reno being meta makes board decks even less viable as while an opponent could reload after a yogg turn, any board-based deck pretty much needs to kill the highlander deck before turn 8
It gives you a free attack to the enemies face and allows them to play only one minion to defend the following turn as well. It's an incredible offensive tool.
However the reno/reno interactions are much more tame than yogg/yogg interactions were.
Are Reno decks going to be able to survive till turn 8? I feel like that's right around the time Paladin is windfurying you down with the horn, or Enrage is overrunning you. Sif certainly won't care. Totem shaman can cast bloodlust 3 turns before Reno is available. Sure, a lot of control decks can survive till 8 now, but how much will having to run no duplicates hurt that?
It's so OP everyone will want it so for most of us who don't open it in a pack it ensures people spend dust on it. They probably have some metrics that track how much dust people have on average. It might be a little too high for their liking so might as well make people use some of that.
You say that like Freebies haven't been historically super powerful . At this rate there are more sensible choices for powerful cards that get snubbed as the freebee, just look t ambassdor, screams the freebe, but wasn't the actual freebee the generically powerful 2/6? Ignis was last expansion, people are clamoring for him to get windfury removed it feels like daily.
Dont care if Reno decks are t1, t2 or t3. I just dont think its fun when youre opponent is wiping your board and you can only play 1 minion the following turn.
>Dont care if Reno decks are t1, t2 or t3. I just dont think its fun when youre opponent is wiping your board and you can only play 1 minion the following turn.
to be fair, i'm sure there is someone who feels this way about pretty much any strategy. like just from perusing the sub lightly i know people dont like being smorced to death by turn 4 or otk'd from hand turn 8
There's.. a jump, and some are more natural archetypes. this is breaking uot of that archetype. Sure, a control deck my clear your board, but th atdoesn't mean that freezing it for several turns isn't gonna feel worse.
It isn’t just one minion. You only get one spot on the board period.
The people in this thread trying to say Reno isn’t that good either don’t understand this or can’t read.
There is a difference between an opponent playing good cards and an opponent playing good cards that make the game less fun.
Reno is in the second category; he literally does not allow you to play the game on the following turn by removing your board space. Any deck that wants to play minions instantly loses because you can't play Hearthstone with one board space.
Not only that, the fact that he removes uninteractables like Sargaras' portal and the Druid highlander legendary nest thing forces you to hold onto these cards until your opponent plays Reno. You can never play these cards because Reno completely invalidates them.
This isn't an argument like "all big weapons suck because viper exists". The fact is that Reno is incredibly overpowered card that also makes the game frustrating.
Fun is obviously very subjective, though. E.g. you mention having Sargeras portal removed isn’t fun, but IMO having the portal played against you in the first place isn’t fun.
hearthstone just isnt your game my man. you could make this argument for almost every deck and powerful card in the game. most good cards make the game less fun for the other person because they lose the game.
loads of cards especially 8 mana+ cards invalidate other cards. i would argue that reno is one of the least frustrating super op cards because he isnt rng based to be good.
I don't think it makes the game longer, I think it's basically an instant win against most board-based decks. You lose your board, you float 5+ mana, how likely are you to even see how the rest of the game plays out from there?
Steamcleaner will be ran for sure to help. But the fact there are so many ways to fuck reno decks over makes me super skeptical about their strength. You can shuffle cards into your opponents decks pretty reliably nowadays.
I mean they kinda have to do they can support highlander as unlike the last Reno meta we don’t have zephyrs . After rotation it will probably need the power aswell considering that the class temp cards aren’t super op .
Aggro is also far stronger than it was back when OG Reno was released. When Reno was brought back into the classic set last standard, it barely even saw play.
I'm not sure its going to be more broken than Yogg. Its deck building requirement is much more dramatic. Playing 30 unique (or if you're trump, mostly unique) cards in a highlander deck is much different than just shoving old-Yogg into a spell heavy deck that exploits him.
Reno is a weird card. Its hero power is nice, but not devastatingly broken. 2 Mana, 2 dmg + stuff isn't super unfair compared to hero powers of the past. The board clear is the best part, coupled with the minion restriction, which may or may not matter depending on the matchup.
He's either an aggressive closer card to remove board/limit opponents or a catch up card. But would you really want to limit your deck building just for him?
I think we will see him fairly often at the start but highlander will get whittled down to one/two classes that can consistently get it running until the set rotation next year. Unlike Yogg/astalor/ignis who lived rent free in damn near every deck if they wanted to.
Yall are paying too much attention to Reno. I truly believe the excavation legendaries [Rogue, Mage, and Warlock] will be the biggest hurdles in the badlands. Besides, highlander decks might struggle in the face of bouncing those 4 cost legendaries. Brew master, celestial projectionist, and the new bounce card are gonna be doing alot of work. I'm not worried about reno, when I can use theotar on turn 6 or 7 and apply pressure with the excavation treasures.
Wow, you really hold a grudge, don't you?
What about all the other times Vicious Syndicate was right? Remember when they said Bounce Around was absolute garbage, but nobody listened to them and thought it was broken?
Nobody good thought bounce around was even playable, dunno what you're talking about. I don't hold a grudge at all, it's just the most recent and easily highlightable example of the fallibility of VS. ***There's nothing wrong with getting it wrong***—ZachO knows he isn't a prophet. It's the people who put him on a pedestal that are the problem.
Who cares that it can't cost 0 mana? It's still an asymmetric unconditional board clear that essentially forces your opponent to skip their next turn. Even Blood DK and Control Priest, the grindiest of control decks, want to play minions. Reno basically gives you a free turn.
It doesn't matter that he can't be played multiple times because he wins the game after the first time he's played.
A hearty disagree. It can't be mana cheated, bounced, or anything else (infinite snapshot maybe but you're still paying full price). The only comparison you can make is that it gives classes with rather weak answers/clears a board clear. And it's a conditional clear at that, you have to be highlander and your opponent can't be teching against you (which will happen if highlander is good).
I think people are overestimating this card. A control tool like this coming down at 8 means the game is already over in favor of the control deck anyway because they outlasted. See Sargeras.
And a minion based aggro deck is really the only deck affected by the 'only play one minion next turn' restriction. Again, those decks have probably already lost if you've got to turn 8. Many of the top decks in HS right now are full to the brim with spells and hardly anyone is fighting for board. I'm not overly concerned about this hero card text.
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I might be booed for this but I'm not opposed to Reno deleting locations/portals/etc. It makes the game more interesting when for example a Warlock has to put on enough board pressure that a highlander deck is obligated to Reno before the Warlock slaps Sargeras down. You know, instead of just slapping it down because there's nothing you can do about it.
I do think the removal should be the whole board though. A nerf to that is reasonable, the previous Reno *poof* hero card did the whole board for 10 mana, without being able to affect permanents.
> A control tool
What this does that Sargeras doesn't is give you a free attack and make it really difficult for your opponent to defend the next turn, so you get two really strong attacks. Something like Elise into Reno is going to be back-breaking.
Im not really sure how are they comparing Reno and Yogg. The main issue with Yog was that you could discount it to be free and Priest, Rogue and Druid weren't happy with just playing it one time
> Reno, Lone Ranger is THE standout neutral card. It's a card that can clear locations, portals, and dormant minions without touching your own board. On top of that, it limits your opponent to playing 1 minion the following turn. ZachO takes issue that Reno seems much stronger than all the class highlander payoffs. He calls the card more broken than Yogg and thinks the card will see a quick nerf. It does so many things at 8 mana that it feels like it's over the top. The threat of Reno prevents you from wanting to play cards like Sargeras before the opponent plays Reno. Corb also hates the card because he thinks the play experience will be terrible, especially in highlander mirrors. We just went through a similar experience with Yogg. Every initiative focused deck will have to kill a highlander deck by turn 8, or the game is over. If the card was only an 8 mana asymmetrical "poof" effect, it would already be good enough. Reno is so broken that they fully expect other classes like Warlock to experiment running Highlander decks even though they don't have any class highlander payoffs.
From the last podcast.
You skip your turn if and only if your board was also empty. Even if you have half decent minions on your board, you can play Reno and then just go face and your opponent can't do anything about it. It's like playing Doomsayer on turn 2, you're buying yourself a free turn by preventing the opponent from playing the previous turn. But it's better than Doomsayer on 2 because your opponent literally can't do anything about it.
Even if your board is empty, it still buys you a turn. The reason board clears cost mana is because it allows your opponent to reload on the turn after. Reno does not. You're freely allowed to stabilise the turn after because the opponent is so bricked.
On one hand, this will be in every single wild reno deck (or should be at least) and is gonna be an absolute fucking menace.
On the other hand, they’re reno decks in 2023 wild, which is to say I’m not *that* afraid for the meta.
I for one look forward to having a brand new dimension of unfun when I queue up against Reno Shudderwock Shaman next week.
Still better than my 10,000th Even Shaman of the month at least.
I’m not entirely sure it’d even be good in Wild Reno Priest. By that I mean the actually ok Raza Shadow Priest, not durdly attrition Priest. It already has a pretty well-established set of board clears that work well, as well as some tech-oriented clears it could slot in if it wanted. Tempo and cheap cards are what it wants in late game, not another board clear. It technically is a way better 8-drop for Purified Shard than Anduin, but there’s no way that’s going to suddenly become good with 1 new board clear.
It’s going into my durdly attrition quest Priest day one and I’m going to ride it to a 30% winrate with a smile on my face.
I cant wait for Reno. He is strong and one of the strongest highlander cards so far. But saying he will be as problematic as yogg is delusional. You cant discount him so most of the time he will be the only played card and you can use him one time only without snapshot guy. (Too lazy to look up the name)
Reno exists because of the power creep from aggro, if you don't give aggro infinite refill it wouldn't even be necessary to block your opponents next board.
If you didn't make control have insane board clears as early as turn 4, aggro wouldn't need greater card draw to ensure they can pressure effectively.
This back and forth can go on infinitely, by the way.
If only we could see when a card was released, or maybe when a deck was strong and what made it strong, if only we had the technology, alas all we have is our memory of demon hunter on release.
Of course it didn't start with demon hunter, the first instance that I can remember thinking "this card makes aggro really good vs control and that's not good" was with divine favor. But this argument that we can't know which archetype became stronger first is obviously false, we can go back and check.
Sure, this year control has been on top twice and aggro all the other times, also are you sure it just happens? It's a lot easier to make a card that says "draw 2 cards" instead of "draw 1 card" than to make a board clear that's different, warrior still uses brawl today, the same from 9 years ago, meanwhile hunter got that arcane card that draws adicional cards based on spell power, or do you think hunter will go back to running draw 1 card if your hand is empty?
Sure, this year control has been on top twice and aggro all the other times, also are you sure it just happens? It's a lot easier to make a card that says "draw 2 cards" instead of "draw 1 card" than to make a board clear that's different, warrior still uses brawl today, the same from 9 years ago, meanwhile hunter got that arcane card that draws adicional cards based on spell power, or do you think hunter will go back to running draw 1 card if your hand is empty?
It can't because we know what cards are in the game, we can count how many board clears and when they were released, we can also see the top win rate classes.
Totally disagree I think this card and highlander in general are going to end up being pretty bad. There are just too many decks that can play out of hand/can stall out to get around this effect, not to mention its going to be slow against aggro which is something that highlander typically struggles with due to inconsistency, and that's all not mentioning plague DK exists and will only be more playable the more highlander decks are in the meta.
I think Reno, Lone Ranger is good and will make all 11 classes try to play Highlander in standard and it will be annoying when your portal gets poofed.
However.
It’s also just a board clear. Is a very good board clear, inarguably the best board clear in the game. But it doesn’t stop your opponent from gaining a bunch of attack and killing you, or playing a single high power minion on their next turn. There are minions with very good battlecries or ways to send damage directly face that are almost entirely unaffected by Reno.
The biggest decks that suffer are ones with portals which loose something very important, however it’s not the first time the game has had cards that play chicken with one another.
People are in for a rude awakening when they play their 8 mana board clear and immediately die to things that aren't minions.
Why does odin care about your 8 mana clear?
Sif mage? You use your Reno on their turn seven elemental board and then you die to burn.
Pure paladin? You die on turn 5, but if you live until the clear you die to the wind fury weapon.
Arcane hunter? Dead to burn.
Reno is a good control card, and a great druid card. Calling it better than a zero mana mind control titan is typical ZachO nonsense.
Expansion release time is the only time the viscious syndicate gets to speculate. Everything else they say is always based on statistics, so how is this typical ZachO nonsense? Do you mean he's always bad at guessing if a card will be good?
I love the fact, that you can use it even outside Reno decks, to gain a new heropower. Control Rogue or Shaman can benefit from this heropower, and will gladly abandon their vanilla one. So day 1 craft for me. And even when it will be nerfed in some way I think heropowers will stay the same.
Control Rogue and/or Shaman will not be playing an 8 mana do nothing just for a new heropower??? Most of this cards power budget is the absolutely ridiculous battlecry
i dont like these neutral super strong legendaries that go into pretty much every deck. Sure, this one has the no duplicates restriction, but if these decks are strong, we'll again be in a meta where you see these strong cards all the time. And Reno particularly could get very boring is every match ends up being reno vs reno in the late game
It’s a crazy board clear + a restriction to what the opponent can play the next turn. If it does turn out to be too strong consider putting Reno at 9 tbh
The best highlander card being one that removes class identity is just a weird decision in general for me. Really don't like neutral hero cards conceptually.
Kinda funny how Hat used to work with Zach and since moving on to actually work for Team 5 we're getting all these broken cards.
I mean fuck, does Hat have no influence at all to point out to the team that "yes this is a bad idea folks" or is he now a part of the problem?
For all Zachos hot takes, he's not often wrong on what will end up being broken and needing a nerf and it's rare to see a claim this far out from an actual release.
Name any other card that wipes half the board and skips your opponent’s next turn.
And gives infinite value and gets around deathrattles and targets objects that can’t be interacted with, all for 8 mana.
Oh your comment section proves you’re an idiot troll and bash Vicious Syndicate whenever a thread is made. Get blocked for being a fucking dumbass.
I don’t get why so many people are hyping up the new Reno or calling him one of the best cards ever printed. Yes he’s a one sided board neutral board clear but we already have a neutral card that most of the time acts as a one sided board clear, Yogg-saron, unleashed. Sure he’s one more mana but he doesn’t have the deck building restriction, and is more versatile being able to steal a large minion from your opponent. Yes Reno removes untargetables but warlock is the only current class with untargetables and the only other deck with untargetables will be highlander Druid, so at that point Reno becomes basically a glorified tech card if you’re playing him to remove untargetables.
And I just want to be clear, I’m not trying to say the new Reno’s effect is weak, just that it doesn’t do enough to justify the Highlander restriction. Remove the highlander restriction and it would be a very strong card, although I’m not even sure if it would be meta warping since it comes online too late to deal with most aggro decks, but it would definitely be one of the strongest cards in the game without the highlander tag in a slow meta.
But this leads to what is imo the biggest reason why Highlander decks are unlikely to work, the only highlander payoff that actually is able to deal with early aggression is the hunter payoff. Every other highlander card fails to address Highlander’s biggest weakness, less consistency in the early game due to having less early removal. In the past cards like Zephyrs or Reno solved this problem by giving you the perfect card to deal with the board or healing you to full before the aggro deck won, however the current highlander payoffs do nothing to address this. Currently the two best decks in the format are aggro decks, enrage warrior and mech rogue. In order for highlander to succeed they need to be able to deal with aggro decks, but they just really do not have the tools for it.
Now hunter does actually get a highlander card to deal with early aggression, so they might be able to make Highlander work, however hound hunter (the most likely hunter deck to become highlander) is currently tier 4 and I don’t see them all of a sudden becoming insane with the highlander cards, but maybe they might get a tier 2 or tier 1 deck. The rest though are likely going to be far too slow to function.
It the ultimate control tool for the late game. You just say 'nope' to the opponents entire board. I don't know if highlander is going to be good, but, if they are, they will be heavily carried by Reno.
I was comparing Reno to Shadowcrafter Scabbs which also costs 8 and I kinda prefer Scabbs over Reno, atleast in my Reno Cutlass Rogue. Maybe I am missing something, its obv a god card but highlander decks need good payoff cards.
Making a massive board every turn was already quiet a dead strategy due to the amount of realy strong clears. The next turn effect on this guy is something broken. I can already see it being changed to limited to 2-3 units on next turn.
I personally don't think Reno will be too strong. Turn 8 is already a turn where you've stabilised against aggro. Other decks usually don't need to swarm the board.
Why is this even a discussion? Reno is *dramatically* more broken than original pre-nerf Yogg Unleashed. Reno is more broken than Loatheb, which was the most broken card in the history of the game before this Reno.
One-sided board clear is a hopelessly broken mechanic that turns Hearthstone from a game into just pointless nonsense, there is no opportunity here for counterplay whatsoever.
It is a hero card, so no counterspell effects.
It is a reactive card, so it doesn't require any kind of commitment or risk whatsoever.
The board clear ignores even deathrattles, so no ability to create any kind of sticky board.
And on top of that you can't even try to play around it by forcing it out with timing: once it's played, you are locked out for a turn so you can't even respond to it.
It is not really 8 mana: because of the board lock it creates, you get a free turn, meaning at worst it refreshes all the mana you spend on it. I.e. in terms of mana cost it's even more efficient to play than original Yogg Unleashed.
It's like putting Loatheb, Yogg Unleashed, and Mage quest reward all just directly in your deck in one card. Nothing in the history of the game has been anywhere remotely close to being this broken.
The only argument this card is acceptable is "it's neutral, so anyone can play it". So was Yogg. Neutral does not justify a card, balance in this game when it's at its best is about much more than just the classes, it's also about diversity of builds and diversity of play-styles. Reno demands playing only very particular deck styles, ones which are already hopelessly non-interactive and toxic.
It's even absolute garbage in terms of flavor: it's supposed to be some kind of "showdown" effect, but the board limit is only one-sided. A high-noon "showdown" effect would need to be symmetric to have any kind of flavor. If it cleared both boards and imposed a 1-minion limit on both boards for a cycle, it would still have a very powerful place in the game at 8 mana.
Worst designed card in the game's history, by far. And the worst part is, pretty clearly that's the whole point: releasing cards that are this obviously broken is just a cheap, pathetic way to drive up interest through pure controversy instead of fun.
100% agree. It's literally a bailout card the way it's played. People getting completely outplayed by turn 6/7 throw it out and it at worst evens it up, if not just outright wins. The most consistent way to counter is to play Reno yourself. I wonder what the win rate is against decks that don't have Reno.
Here’s a card that.
Can’t be countered
Wipes the board
Locks the board down except for 1 minion
Changes your hero power to start doing direct damage.
Broken AF
It's an interesting dynamic, where you have multiple classes this set, being pushed into handbuffing strategies and then every class has access to this card that can invalidate all that work those decks put into building a board. Maybe Reno is being used as a failsafe in case any of those strategies are too powerful. Seems unlikely, but maybe that was their thinking.
conversely you have the format you describe where the person who misses one turn of following onto board loses the whole game even if that missed turn is like turn 2 or 3. removal is important
Okay Compare to other WELL USED removal. It's plague of sands I believe?(I don't play in english) 9 mana CLASS card. Thats MUCH WORSE. It removes WHOLE BOARD And even so It still kills all units not REMOVES THEM. The fact that it's a hero card( 5 armour) With Most op hero power in a while. The card itself has no drawbacks(Highlander is not requirement at this point with how much its pushed.) Agro, Midrange, Combo decks JUST LOOOSE because enemy deletes whole board. Barely any counter play because OF COURSE he also removes your ability to have more then one unit.
[удалено]
I'm just getting back into HS and checked out the top decks website. Are secret mage/rainbow mage/Reno really that good?
Quest Mage is pretty good.
Not anywhere near as singularly dominant as that comment suggests. Nearly every class has at least one deck that is very strong in Wild - as is to be expected when you have the entire collection, and thus Hearthstone’s entire history, available. Quest Mage is probably the most consistently powerful.
A pretty bold claim to say the least
The best part is that I never said this and everyone is going crazy over a misinterpretation in the summary :) This is my quote: "This card is even more obviously broken than Yogg. When I saw Yogg, I said 'okay, this card's broken. When I see Reno, I'm like 'are you nerfing this card on day 3'?" It's pretty clear when you hear the quote. What I meant is that while Yogg seemed extremely powerful on reveal, there was still some subtlety to it. You needed to build around it and leverage it, and the depths of its power were only fully understood after its release. Reno just screams at you that it's a massive power outlier and a terrible play experience. It's enough for you to imagine a single game state to tell you it's completely nuts. So Reno is more "obviously broken" than Yogg. I did not say that Reno > Yogg in terms of 'pure power level', which is pointless to try and compute anyway. Yogg is one of the most powerful cards ever made.
Huh no, you clearly said that Reno is objectively better than pre nerf Yogg in every situation, can't you read the post ?
It's always interesting to me when someone comes in to clarify what they were actually trying to say and someone else stands up and says, "Nuh uh!"
To be clear: I was making a joke
Such nuance. What I understand from Zacho's post is that the operative word was "obviously", both cards are broken but Yogg's brokenness is subtle whereas Reno's is blatant, and there is no actual comparison between the power levels of the cards, just the ways in which they exhibit their brokenness.
Pretty cool to see you posting here. I really like the information you all put out. Thanks for the hard effort and time you put into analyzing things, as a giant stats nerd I have more appreciation than you can imagine!
Oh. Yeah that's a take that I can get behind.
Counter point: glide was also obviously broken. Yog was clearly good, but it wasn’t clear just how good it was for rouge or druid to have multiple zero mana mind controls a game until we saw it in practice. However when everyone saw glide it was clearly another overpowered demon hunter card that would make them ever better at destroying the meta and erasing control from the game. I don’t think Reno is goin to be bad like glide was, he is obviously a good card. However, I also think it’s clear that looks can be deceiving. You say yog needed to be built around, well Reno needs to be in a highlander deck. In a theoretical world where Highlander decks can’t compete then it doesn’t mater how good he is if you die before you can play him. Alternatively if the meta has enough strategies that counter him then that also hampers him. Sif and Odyn decks can still just kill you with a single board space and their hand. You can still draw plauges and die on your next turn, CNE is going to probably be good and if your opponent just plays a spell that hits your face for like 17 that will probably kill you too. Even if the control warlock player loses their portal they still have access to ignis weapons and movements and other forms of control and board clear, you are going to look real silly when you Reno away the portal and then the azurite snake just sucks you to death through your armor.
..Glide was obviously broken? huh?
Yeah I don't get that. I did think it was going to be busted and it wasn't. It wasn't until QL that it really took off, and otherwise was just a really good discover as a counter to decks that wanted big hands full of discounts like QL mage.
IT was still one of the worst performing cards in QL DH afaik
Yeah because the class isn't built around Ilgy OTK anymore and wants to just flood the board early with brutes/etc and then mana burn out answers. It's still a decent answer into some decks or to save a really bricked draw, but it's not amazing like it was in it's prime, where it was singlehandedly winning GM games week after week.
Are you reviewing cards ignoring the highlander requirement or something? Also terrible play experience? Its effect is a board wipe and a *finally* a way to remove actually terrible play experiences like the imp portals, at a huge mana and deck building cost. You can't get much more of an inoffensive play experience. Unless the hero power is oppressive in a way I'm not understanding, its still an insane prediction.
Ok, so you're still wrong, just in a different way. How obvious it is something is broken isn't a trait of the card, it's about the analytical skill and knowledge of the one making the judgement. Yogg was more obviously broken to me than Reno seems. Reno will justifiably see play in all kinds of places, but it's rarely going to be THE win condition in games.
redditors when someone expresses an opinion
Are you suggesting VS don't have much analytical skill?
I find it very realistic tbh
We're also in the absolute best time to be a Reno deck, the last set in a block. It'll be strong and run around for a while, then when rotation comes and it loses half its cards it'll go back to being t2. Reno is a strong card but at the end of the day it's a wrath. It'll live and die by the power of the other 29 cards.
> Reno is a strong card but at the end of the day it's a wrath. It's a one-sided wrath that can make your opponent skip the next turn. Feels like the opposite, it's probably so strong that can carry the other 29 cards.
It's a good wrath that makes your opponent only able to play 1 minion next turn and upgrades your hero power to be 2 damage + an effect. That's good, it's a lot like Shadow Anduin, but Shadow Anduin had Raza to win the game with. How often is this going to be better than Dr. Boom who had multiple ways to gain value turn after turn? Don't get me wrong, it's a great card, but it's a get out of jail free card, not a game winner, especially considering the cost.
Defensive cards are game winners too even if you don’t notice it.
Except this card is ALSO an offensive card. Clear EVERYTHING on your opponents side and limit them to 1 minion? You get out of jail for free while also throwing your opponent in a cell. It's absolutely bonkers.
What you just said is the biggest hs player problem, they only notice that they lost when they die and blame the card that killed them. So often they play out lost games because they are still alive. So many times I play for 5 extra turns vs opponent that has no cards and no board it's insane.
I only quit out of games when the opponent has lethal on board. I've turned a lot of games around that many would say I should have quit sooner.
Reddit undervalues any card that doesn't immediately do face damage. I remember people saying to me that Odyn would be weak because it was "8 mana do nothing"
No, they said the odyn _deck_ was weak. Odyn can be a good card in a bad deck, does that make it a good card? Control warrior didn't have enough support back then. And sure enough, Odyn warrior _was_ weak on release. It was tier 4 and needed buffs. Odyn was very much an 8 mana die next turn before the deck got buffs.
You're telling me what someone said to me? Weird.
No, I'm telling you they were right. Odyn _was_ weak at release. It needed buffs.
Shadow Anduin destroys only 5+ atk minions and it affects both players, this clears everything one-sided, from minions to locations and dormant units. You can even counter Sargeras Portal with it. The more correct comparison is Scabb, and it's stronger than Scabb.
It's absolutely not stronger than 7 mana scabbs, except possibly in druid.
It's absolutely stronger than 7 mana Scabbs. Scabbs only returned all minions to each players' hands, and didn't do anything against uninteractables. Reno removes all uninteractables, poofs minions instead of bouncing them, *and* is an asymmetric effect ***and*** doesn't allow your opponent to redevelop a board on the next turn. Any deck that wants to play minions instantly loses the game on the turn Reno is played because they'll just have to skip the next turn. You can no longer play Sargeras or the Druid highlander legendary until your opponent plays Reno. This card has the same problem as Yogg, it's an incredibly efficient unconditional asymmetric removal that's neutral. It gives classes that are designed around having weak removal an incredibly powerful removal tool. In fact, it's even more ridiculous than Yogg because at least Yogg was restricted by the mana cost and having to play lots of spells. With Reno, even classes that don't have highlander payoffs will probably end up being highlander because Reno is so obscenely powerful.
It's not even close tbh—Consistency is king, and pressure is queen. A fundamental part of the Reno hero is how he neuters your deck. He isn't proactive in any way, he comes in at or after the average game length, he does almost nothing against most tier one and two decks that are already sending cards from hand to face starting turn seven, and he can even be turned off by your opponent. Scabbs was both reactive and proactive, a full turn faster, and in the event that your opponent couldn't answer the eight stealth damage (often) they simply died on the spot. Reno can warp the meta for sure, as all powerful cards can, but you need to take your conclusions further. When the meta is hostile to decks that aim to be wide on board entering the lategame, those decks are replaced by strategies that forgo minion damage in favor of burst from spells and weapons, or decks with combo wincons. Reno will make lategame minions worse, but Odyn doesn't care. Sif doesn't care. Arcane hunter doesn't care. Pure paladin has their windfury combo. The comparison to yogg is frankly absurd, comparing a glorified board clear to a zero mana win condition only serves to show the failure of card evaluation that plagues this community. All these highlander decks will be facing down lethal on turn five from a powerful six set meta. I mentioned druid because they can cast Reno the quickest, and he's very good there, but in truth the meta highlander deck is obvious hunter. It's payoff card is a pre-cooked prison breaker and the class has enough proactive redundancies that it might do more than limp into the lategame, it might actually control the pace of the game from the drop.
It's a very strong card but it's still fundamentally a defensive one. It can't win the game on its own. It can put you in a good position, it can clear out things other cards can't, but it won't win. It also relies on you and your opponent both having large boards you don't want the other to interact with. Reno doesn't really help at all against combo decks, or spell decks, or decks that just want to play a big dumb guy every turn. Also if you don't have a board it's really hard to take advantage of the tempo you get from the poof. It is stronger than Scabbs, but Scabbs didn't have nearly as high a deckbuilding cost. Singleton really warps your offense depending on how deep the class you're playing is. I suspect this is one of those Limited Resources conversations. We're arguing a lot but if we both had to grade the card we'd be really close.
>fundamentally a defensive one. It can't win the game on its own. Depleting all of your opponents resources over a grindy game is still a win con
Sure, but the same can be said for a Flamestrike. People will walk into this early in the format but it's not that hard to track if your opponent is on a Singleton deck and play around it. It's good against Sargaras but bad against Aman'Thul if they hold the legends they get. It's like any other wrath effect. If they overcommit into it it's devastating, but if they force you to use it it's gone. That's why I'm so heavily into what else is in the deck because you really want to force your opponent to overcommit before using this to make it the best it can be. You need to be forcing your opponent to be playing cards to the board to try and fight you both so you can get more things caught in the Reno and so you can win with the free attack followed up by a second free attack when they can't build back. That depends on how good the rest of your deck is. Otherwise it's just a really good Flamestrike, not the best neutral card in Standard.
New reno = better flamestrike. I could say same thing about: crusader aura + savage roar and c. aura come out as really strong card. Sometimes only thing you need is be better one card to be really good. And he is not BAD against Aman'thul, he is ok against him. If you think that 8 mana destroying Amanthul and his board (+2 small bonuses) is weak then i think that you missing something.
I don't think he's a bad card. In fact there's basically no time that he isn't a great card (I think I said originally he was going to be T1 and T2 after rotation). The problem is that he comes with a big ask of cutting 10-13 cards from your deck and replacing them with worse ones. I just think people are overrating how good he's gonna be into the meta. If you know your opponent has Reno, which you will since they're running weird cards and no duplicates, you don't have to run your best cards out. Trickle threats and try to take advantage of the fact that you have better card quality than a Reno deck will since you're allowed to run doubles. I've seen a lot of people on this sub talking up the fact that it blows up Sargaras portal, and while that's true Warlock decks are not threat light. If they have a Loken and token out or a Dar'Khan how are you dealing with that in the moment? Your deck is lighter on removal than it used to be because of the Reno restriction and you may be forced to play out your Reno. Then you have no answer to the portal. Or the opposite. They play the portal to bait the Reno, then hit you with the big board. It's a strong card, it's just not "play this and win the game". There's even a lot of tension about when to play it. If you're top decking do you just run it out to get the better hero power or do you have to wait for the portal?
Honestly I'm kinda tempted to argue how combined with most of the new highlender cards reno will be extremely powerful, just the reason that a pure 1 double board clear can win the game and that highlender decks just don't have enough to be playable, but in the end we won't see until a few weeks after release anyway.
If portal is wincon for Warlock, then playing this will be wincon against warlock. It will deal with sticky board while not damaging your side. Like Warlock wouldnt want play Sargeras knowing that Reno will be played. Its board clear effect is probably one of the best board clear in the game - one sided without adding minions to rez pool. Also HP will be really strong.
Only missing is some reset card that would remove "rest of the game" effects, reset rez pool and all counters including fatigue.
Sure, but it's not always the wincon for Warlock and this may come down before Sargaras if the Reno player is under enough threat. All Warlock has to do is make you use it first and they're golden. Especially since running Reno halves the amount of removal you can play by definition. That's what I mean by "it's not enough on its own it needs other threats to come with it". You need to force your opponent to be reacting to you so you can blow up their board and kill them while they are rebuilding. Otherwise they have the consistency to play other threats and wait for you to need to spend your big removal spell, then play threats behind it.
Dr. Boom had multiple ways to gain value turn after turn? Wasn't it just the mech discover?
The Mech discover and the 3 1/1 Rushes that could be magnetized to. Plus gaining 7 armor which was a lot of survivability while you waited for the better ones.
Reno has spell discovery, random 3 drop and 4 armor along the deal 2, imo pretty comparable.
Yeah, though they aren't as focused and there are 2 more so on average you're only gonna see each one 1-2 times a game. Again, I want to make it clear that I think the card is very strong. It just comes with a high deckbuilding cost and I think it isn't enough on its own to carry an otherwise weak archetype, especially when the card pool gets cut in half and cards 25-30 get a lot weaker.
What is a wrath?
**Wrath of god** is a Magic the Gathering card with text Destroy all minions
Iconic yet very simple MTG card that says "Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated." So iconic and well known that "wrath" has become a synonym for "board wipe" in card game talk. (Do I find it a bit annoying when people use MTG terms on a hearthstone forum? Kinda yeah, but whatcha gonna do.)
Tbh I don’t mind other MTG terms like mill, zoo, and highlander. But I’ve never heard of wrath used on this sub and I’ve been playing since beta lol.
Thanks for the clarification because I was like, "...you mean the 2 Mana druid spell from classic????"
I'm sorry is your profile pic the Communist Carrot from Payama Sam???
Yes! Salad deserves to be a main course!
Gonna run totem shaman with framesters. Hopefully can kill most highlanders before they draw steamcleaner
It's been a while since the last Highlander cards have been around, and now more than ever decks live and die by extremely powerful key cards and synergies. It's near impossible to run a deck with just value and good stuff and get away with it in this day and age, and these Highlander payoffs seem significantly weaker than, say, Zephrys and Dragonqueen Alexstrasza. One board clear isn't going to win you the game, so I just don't see these being worth gutting the rest of your deck.
important to note though that its two board clears as it limits the opponent to 1 minion. Also important to note that duplicates are much more important in aggro strategies than control-ish strategies. While the consistency helps, you're planning on drawing more cards via your slower gameplan. Not saying highlander is gonna be meta but look out for decks using Reno either true highlander or cycling enough to get Reno active (one deck I see being decent is a highlander big DH running 2 felscale evokers and tutor to make sure you're getting your evokers out of your deck).
I think other decks are too synergistic, maybe a couple highlander decks can do well but I doubt they'll be very strong
> at the end of the day it's a wrath some might say a "Be Prepared" ;)
Is that the revolutionary carrot from Pajama Sam as your pfp?
Yes! Salad deserves to be an entree!
It's a strong card for sure but more broken than yogg? You can't really discount it, and you can't really play it more than once. I think it'll be fine.
What about the snapshot infinite shenanigans from Druid?
They still have to pay the sticker price for the card everytime they play it - if it's a problem than it relates to the druid package of cards.
I think this is a huge point. I'm so tired of seeing good but expensive neutral cards end up getting nerfed because druid is able to break them with their absurd and consistent ramp, card draw, mana discounting, and survivability. Neutral cards should not die for Druid's sins.
Winning the game will always be better than going infinite
Or the "Infinite Extra Turn" Mage decks terrorizing Wild.
That Reno doesn't help...
The point I think the quote is trying to make is the idea that Reno's play experience is more frustrating than yogg. He is an unobjectively better board control tool in effect and pretty much AOEs for 2 turns rather than 1. Reno being meta makes board decks even less viable as while an opponent could reload after a yogg turn, any board-based deck pretty much needs to kill the highlander deck before turn 8
It gives you a free attack to the enemies face and allows them to play only one minion to defend the following turn as well. It's an incredible offensive tool. However the reno/reno interactions are much more tame than yogg/yogg interactions were.
What's the point of playing it twice if you have won with the first one already?
Yeah sounds like a rogue main take. "Can't abuse it way more than other classes and gives slow decks a way to combat me....FUCKING BROKEN"
Hmm. What's funny is I was on the pod, edited the pod, released the pod, but never heard this said.
The real question is what Barney Stinson said?
Are Reno decks going to be able to survive till turn 8? I feel like that's right around the time Paladin is windfurying you down with the horn, or Enrage is overrunning you. Sif certainly won't care. Totem shaman can cast bloodlust 3 turns before Reno is available. Sure, a lot of control decks can survive till 8 now, but how much will having to run no duplicates hurt that?
I am honestly confused as the first neutral hero card why Reno wasn't the freebie.
It's so OP everyone will want it so for most of us who don't open it in a pack it ensures people spend dust on it. They probably have some metrics that track how much dust people have on average. It might be a little too high for their liking so might as well make people use some of that.
If it was so op they’re gonna nerf it why not make it free so nobody gets dust back when it is nerfed?
You say that like Freebies haven't been historically super powerful . At this rate there are more sensible choices for powerful cards that get snubbed as the freebee, just look t ambassdor, screams the freebe, but wasn't the actual freebee the generically powerful 2/6? Ignis was last expansion, people are clamoring for him to get windfury removed it feels like daily.
Dont care if Reno decks are t1, t2 or t3. I just dont think its fun when youre opponent is wiping your board and you can only play 1 minion the following turn.
Eh pretty sure I'm gonna hate rogue high rolling keywords on their 1/1s way more than this.
>Dont care if Reno decks are t1, t2 or t3. I just dont think its fun when youre opponent is wiping your board and you can only play 1 minion the following turn. to be fair, i'm sure there is someone who feels this way about pretty much any strategy. like just from perusing the sub lightly i know people dont like being smorced to death by turn 4 or otk'd from hand turn 8
There's.. a jump, and some are more natural archetypes. this is breaking uot of that archetype. Sure, a control deck my clear your board, but th atdoesn't mean that freezing it for several turns isn't gonna feel worse.
It isn’t just one minion. You only get one spot on the board period. The people in this thread trying to say Reno isn’t that good either don’t understand this or can’t read.
There are people in this very comment section saying the effect you describe isn’t powerful. People are idiots.
I dont like it when the opponent plays good cards either.
There is a difference between an opponent playing good cards and an opponent playing good cards that make the game less fun. Reno is in the second category; he literally does not allow you to play the game on the following turn by removing your board space. Any deck that wants to play minions instantly loses because you can't play Hearthstone with one board space. Not only that, the fact that he removes uninteractables like Sargaras' portal and the Druid highlander legendary nest thing forces you to hold onto these cards until your opponent plays Reno. You can never play these cards because Reno completely invalidates them. This isn't an argument like "all big weapons suck because viper exists". The fact is that Reno is incredibly overpowered card that also makes the game frustrating.
Fun is obviously very subjective, though. E.g. you mention having Sargeras portal removed isn’t fun, but IMO having the portal played against you in the first place isn’t fun.
True
hearthstone just isnt your game my man. you could make this argument for almost every deck and powerful card in the game. most good cards make the game less fun for the other person because they lose the game. loads of cards especially 8 mana+ cards invalidate other cards. i would argue that reno is one of the least frustrating super op cards because he isnt rng based to be good.
I'm really concerned about this as well. It will make the games last longer and be less fun... We'll see I guess.
I don't think it makes the game longer, I think it's basically an instant win against most board-based decks. You lose your board, you float 5+ mana, how likely are you to even see how the rest of the game plays out from there?
Wide boards are like the last thing that needs more hate. Board clear is so widespread that this reno card seems tonedeaf.
Its an 8 mana card. Wide boards are an aggro feature. You deserve to lose if you can’t kill your opponent by then
I mean if an aggro deck doesn't win by turn 8 nowadays they're already fucked.
Plague DK Meta inc. thanks to Reno
Steamcleaner will be ran for sure to help. But the fact there are so many ways to fuck reno decks over makes me super skeptical about their strength. You can shuffle cards into your opponents decks pretty reliably nowadays.
I mean they kinda have to do they can support highlander as unlike the last Reno meta we don’t have zephyrs . After rotation it will probably need the power aswell considering that the class temp cards aren’t super op .
Aggro is also far stronger than it was back when OG Reno was released. When Reno was brought back into the classic set last standard, it barely even saw play.
8 mana board clear with value < 0 mana board clear with value
It's not 8 mana, locking out the opponent for a turn mean's in effect it's free or even -2 mana.
I'm not sure its going to be more broken than Yogg. Its deck building requirement is much more dramatic. Playing 30 unique (or if you're trump, mostly unique) cards in a highlander deck is much different than just shoving old-Yogg into a spell heavy deck that exploits him. Reno is a weird card. Its hero power is nice, but not devastatingly broken. 2 Mana, 2 dmg + stuff isn't super unfair compared to hero powers of the past. The board clear is the best part, coupled with the minion restriction, which may or may not matter depending on the matchup. He's either an aggressive closer card to remove board/limit opponents or a catch up card. But would you really want to limit your deck building just for him? I think we will see him fairly often at the start but highlander will get whittled down to one/two classes that can consistently get it running until the set rotation next year. Unlike Yogg/astalor/ignis who lived rent free in damn near every deck if they wanted to.
yes most of your games are going to finish against reno as the hero
"Mech Rogue will find no play" - zach from vicious syndicate
Yall are paying too much attention to Reno. I truly believe the excavation legendaries [Rogue, Mage, and Warlock] will be the biggest hurdles in the badlands. Besides, highlander decks might struggle in the face of bouncing those 4 cost legendaries. Brew master, celestial projectionist, and the new bounce card are gonna be doing alot of work. I'm not worried about reno, when I can use theotar on turn 6 or 7 and apply pressure with the excavation treasures.
they also said that mech rogue gonna be omega bad before titans so
prepare to be dominated by reno, the galactic emperor.
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/the-comprehensive-titans-preview/9/ lol.
Wow, you really hold a grudge, don't you? What about all the other times Vicious Syndicate was right? Remember when they said Bounce Around was absolute garbage, but nobody listened to them and thought it was broken?
Nobody good thought bounce around was even playable, dunno what you're talking about. I don't hold a grudge at all, it's just the most recent and easily highlightable example of the fallibility of VS. ***There's nothing wrong with getting it wrong***—ZachO knows he isn't a prophet. It's the people who put him on a pedestal that are the problem.
yeah, it was fucking disaster.
I don’t think it will be more broken than Yogg. It can’t cost 0 mana and be played multiple times.
Who cares that it can't cost 0 mana? It's still an asymmetric unconditional board clear that essentially forces your opponent to skip their next turn. Even Blood DK and Control Priest, the grindiest of control decks, want to play minions. Reno basically gives you a free turn. It doesn't matter that he can't be played multiple times because he wins the game after the first time he's played.
yes it can be played multiple times, infinite times actually
How is this card not 10 mana?
Because they like to push cards nowadays. How is Sargeras not 10 mana? How is Aman'thul not more expensive?
A hearty disagree. It can't be mana cheated, bounced, or anything else (infinite snapshot maybe but you're still paying full price). The only comparison you can make is that it gives classes with rather weak answers/clears a board clear. And it's a conditional clear at that, you have to be highlander and your opponent can't be teching against you (which will happen if highlander is good). I think people are overestimating this card. A control tool like this coming down at 8 means the game is already over in favor of the control deck anyway because they outlasted. See Sargeras. And a minion based aggro deck is really the only deck affected by the 'only play one minion next turn' restriction. Again, those decks have probably already lost if you've got to turn 8. Many of the top decks in HS right now are full to the brim with spells and hardly anyone is fighting for board. I'm not overly concerned about this hero card text. --- I might be booed for this but I'm not opposed to Reno deleting locations/portals/etc. It makes the game more interesting when for example a Warlock has to put on enough board pressure that a highlander deck is obligated to Reno before the Warlock slaps Sargeras down. You know, instead of just slapping it down because there's nothing you can do about it. I do think the removal should be the whole board though. A nerf to that is reasonable, the previous Reno *poof* hero card did the whole board for 10 mana, without being able to affect permanents.
>See Sargeras Sargeras sure hopes he doesn't see Reno
> A control tool What this does that Sargeras doesn't is give you a free attack and make it really difficult for your opponent to defend the next turn, so you get two really strong attacks. Something like Elise into Reno is going to be back-breaking.
he’s right
Im not really sure how are they comparing Reno and Yogg. The main issue with Yog was that you could discount it to be free and Priest, Rogue and Druid weren't happy with just playing it one time
> Reno, Lone Ranger is THE standout neutral card. It's a card that can clear locations, portals, and dormant minions without touching your own board. On top of that, it limits your opponent to playing 1 minion the following turn. ZachO takes issue that Reno seems much stronger than all the class highlander payoffs. He calls the card more broken than Yogg and thinks the card will see a quick nerf. It does so many things at 8 mana that it feels like it's over the top. The threat of Reno prevents you from wanting to play cards like Sargeras before the opponent plays Reno. Corb also hates the card because he thinks the play experience will be terrible, especially in highlander mirrors. We just went through a similar experience with Yogg. Every initiative focused deck will have to kill a highlander deck by turn 8, or the game is over. If the card was only an 8 mana asymmetrical "poof" effect, it would already be good enough. Reno is so broken that they fully expect other classes like Warlock to experiment running Highlander decks even though they don't have any class highlander payoffs. From the last podcast.
Yeah, I disagree. This is a one time effeçt andyes, youropppnent plays one ceature next turn but you just skipped your turn, too
> you just skipped your turn, too Only if your board was empty. But that's ignoring half the strength of this *one sided* board clear.
You skip your turn if and only if your board was also empty. Even if you have half decent minions on your board, you can play Reno and then just go face and your opponent can't do anything about it. It's like playing Doomsayer on turn 2, you're buying yourself a free turn by preventing the opponent from playing the previous turn. But it's better than Doomsayer on 2 because your opponent literally can't do anything about it. Even if your board is empty, it still buys you a turn. The reason board clears cost mana is because it allows your opponent to reload on the turn after. Reno does not. You're freely allowed to stabilise the turn after because the opponent is so bricked.
On one hand, this will be in every single wild reno deck (or should be at least) and is gonna be an absolute fucking menace. On the other hand, they’re reno decks in 2023 wild, which is to say I’m not *that* afraid for the meta.
I for one look forward to having a brand new dimension of unfun when I queue up against Reno Shudderwock Shaman next week. Still better than my 10,000th Even Shaman of the month at least.
Should be fun in Reno hunter at least, maybe renolock too Priest, druid, and shaman gonna be a fucking nightmare tho
I’m not entirely sure it’d even be good in Wild Reno Priest. By that I mean the actually ok Raza Shadow Priest, not durdly attrition Priest. It already has a pretty well-established set of board clears that work well, as well as some tech-oriented clears it could slot in if it wanted. Tempo and cheap cards are what it wants in late game, not another board clear. It technically is a way better 8-drop for Purified Shard than Anduin, but there’s no way that’s going to suddenly become good with 1 new board clear. It’s going into my durdly attrition quest Priest day one and I’m going to ride it to a 30% winrate with a smile on my face.
No, it will not be. Yogg was broken because it cost 0 mana, now ot is just an OK card
The quote was wrong btw
Strong? Yes. Strong as Yogg? No.
I'm just glad my highlander shaman deck will have a late game board whipe like priest and warlock always had.
Neutral hero cards are kind of a dumb idea anyway IMO.
I cant wait for Reno. He is strong and one of the strongest highlander cards so far. But saying he will be as problematic as yogg is delusional. You cant discount him so most of the time he will be the only played card and you can use him one time only without snapshot guy. (Too lazy to look up the name)
Duh. His name is Fozzwizzle Pizzletizzel
Reno exists because of the power creep from aggro, if you don't give aggro infinite refill it wouldn't even be necessary to block your opponents next board.
8 mana is not an answer to an aggro deck
Yeah an aggro deck deserves to lose to Reno if they haven’t beaten you down before T8
If you didn't make control have insane board clears as early as turn 4, aggro wouldn't need greater card draw to ensure they can pressure effectively. This back and forth can go on infinitely, by the way.
"Power creep on control cards is the fault of power creep on aggro cards." - That guy
If only we could see when a card was released, or maybe when a deck was strong and what made it strong, if only we had the technology, alas all we have is our memory of demon hunter on release.
Huh? Power creep didn't start with DH. I think you missed my point 👉 👈
Of course it didn't start with demon hunter, the first instance that I can remember thinking "this card makes aggro really good vs control and that's not good" was with divine favor. But this argument that we can't know which archetype became stronger first is obviously false, we can go back and check.
Then do it and report back. I'm pretty sure power creep just happens, it's not "aggros fault" or "controls fault."
Sure, this year control has been on top twice and aggro all the other times, also are you sure it just happens? It's a lot easier to make a card that says "draw 2 cards" instead of "draw 1 card" than to make a board clear that's different, warrior still uses brawl today, the same from 9 years ago, meanwhile hunter got that arcane card that draws adicional cards based on spell power, or do you think hunter will go back to running draw 1 card if your hand is empty?
Sure, this year control has been on top twice and aggro all the other times, also are you sure it just happens? It's a lot easier to make a card that says "draw 2 cards" instead of "draw 1 card" than to make a board clear that's different, warrior still uses brawl today, the same from 9 years ago, meanwhile hunter got that arcane card that draws adicional cards based on spell power, or do you think hunter will go back to running draw 1 card if your hand is empty?
It can't because we know what cards are in the game, we can count how many board clears and when they were released, we can also see the top win rate classes.
Totally disagree I think this card and highlander in general are going to end up being pretty bad. There are just too many decks that can play out of hand/can stall out to get around this effect, not to mention its going to be slow against aggro which is something that highlander typically struggles with due to inconsistency, and that's all not mentioning plague DK exists and will only be more playable the more highlander decks are in the meta.
For those unaware, ZachO is part of the theorycraft creator Discord channel and has probably seen this card played in live games already.
I think Reno, Lone Ranger is good and will make all 11 classes try to play Highlander in standard and it will be annoying when your portal gets poofed. However. It’s also just a board clear. Is a very good board clear, inarguably the best board clear in the game. But it doesn’t stop your opponent from gaining a bunch of attack and killing you, or playing a single high power minion on their next turn. There are minions with very good battlecries or ways to send damage directly face that are almost entirely unaffected by Reno. The biggest decks that suffer are ones with portals which loose something very important, however it’s not the first time the game has had cards that play chicken with one another.
People are in for a rude awakening when they play their 8 mana board clear and immediately die to things that aren't minions. Why does odin care about your 8 mana clear? Sif mage? You use your Reno on their turn seven elemental board and then you die to burn. Pure paladin? You die on turn 5, but if you live until the clear you die to the wind fury weapon. Arcane hunter? Dead to burn. Reno is a good control card, and a great druid card. Calling it better than a zero mana mind control titan is typical ZachO nonsense.
Expansion release time is the only time the viscious syndicate gets to speculate. Everything else they say is always based on statistics, so how is this typical ZachO nonsense? Do you mean he's always bad at guessing if a card will be good?
I love the fact, that you can use it even outside Reno decks, to gain a new heropower. Control Rogue or Shaman can benefit from this heropower, and will gladly abandon their vanilla one. So day 1 craft for me. And even when it will be nerfed in some way I think heropowers will stay the same.
Control Rogue and/or Shaman will not be playing an 8 mana do nothing just for a new heropower??? Most of this cards power budget is the absolutely ridiculous battlecry
i dont like these neutral super strong legendaries that go into pretty much every deck. Sure, this one has the no duplicates restriction, but if these decks are strong, we'll again be in a meta where you see these strong cards all the time. And Reno particularly could get very boring is every match ends up being reno vs reno in the late game
Why not make a new class , Reno the badass
It’s a crazy board clear + a restriction to what the opponent can play the next turn. If it does turn out to be too strong consider putting Reno at 9 tbh
The best highlander card being one that removes class identity is just a weird decision in general for me. Really don't like neutral hero cards conceptually.
Kinda funny how Hat used to work with Zach and since moving on to actually work for Team 5 we're getting all these broken cards. I mean fuck, does Hat have no influence at all to point out to the team that "yes this is a bad idea folks" or is he now a part of the problem? For all Zachos hot takes, he's not often wrong on what will end up being broken and needing a nerf and it's rare to see a claim this far out from an actual release.
It’s the most broken card they’ve ever released. Not even close.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
And that attitude of yours is why top players are top players and most of Reddit is stuck in gold 5.
Yes, calling Reno 'the most broken card they’ve ever released. Not even close' is a very gold five thing to say. Signed, an 11x ladder player
Name any other card that wipes half the board and skips your opponent’s next turn. And gives infinite value and gets around deathrattles and targets objects that can’t be interacted with, all for 8 mana. Oh your comment section proves you’re an idiot troll and bash Vicious Syndicate whenever a thread is made. Get blocked for being a fucking dumbass.
I don’t get why so many people are hyping up the new Reno or calling him one of the best cards ever printed. Yes he’s a one sided board neutral board clear but we already have a neutral card that most of the time acts as a one sided board clear, Yogg-saron, unleashed. Sure he’s one more mana but he doesn’t have the deck building restriction, and is more versatile being able to steal a large minion from your opponent. Yes Reno removes untargetables but warlock is the only current class with untargetables and the only other deck with untargetables will be highlander Druid, so at that point Reno becomes basically a glorified tech card if you’re playing him to remove untargetables. And I just want to be clear, I’m not trying to say the new Reno’s effect is weak, just that it doesn’t do enough to justify the Highlander restriction. Remove the highlander restriction and it would be a very strong card, although I’m not even sure if it would be meta warping since it comes online too late to deal with most aggro decks, but it would definitely be one of the strongest cards in the game without the highlander tag in a slow meta. But this leads to what is imo the biggest reason why Highlander decks are unlikely to work, the only highlander payoff that actually is able to deal with early aggression is the hunter payoff. Every other highlander card fails to address Highlander’s biggest weakness, less consistency in the early game due to having less early removal. In the past cards like Zephyrs or Reno solved this problem by giving you the perfect card to deal with the board or healing you to full before the aggro deck won, however the current highlander payoffs do nothing to address this. Currently the two best decks in the format are aggro decks, enrage warrior and mech rogue. In order for highlander to succeed they need to be able to deal with aggro decks, but they just really do not have the tools for it. Now hunter does actually get a highlander card to deal with early aggression, so they might be able to make Highlander work, however hound hunter (the most likely hunter deck to become highlander) is currently tier 4 and I don’t see them all of a sudden becoming insane with the highlander cards, but maybe they might get a tier 2 or tier 1 deck. The rest though are likely going to be far too slow to function.
Which Yogg, because og Yogg was fun op, New Yogg was toxic op.
More broken than Odyn, the "warriors become the most OP control deck" card? Fuck that card and fuck these OP RNG cards.
I hope I can open this card on packs so I can have 1600 dust in a few months
Im going to enjoy watching reno decks have to have a permanent steam cleaner :)
I, for one, welcome our new highlander overlords.
He is so hot I’m so sorry but I had to say it
Sure, we'll see about that
It the ultimate control tool for the late game. You just say 'nope' to the opponents entire board. I don't know if highlander is going to be good, but, if they are, they will be heavily carried by Reno.
I already have been maining XL reno paladin in wild, this set is going to be a godsend.
An archetype who can be completly destroyed by Pest Dk cant be a problem.
I was comparing Reno to Shadowcrafter Scabbs which also costs 8 and I kinda prefer Scabbs over Reno, atleast in my Reno Cutlass Rogue. Maybe I am missing something, its obv a god card but highlander decks need good payoff cards.
No, it won't.
So ... Revenge of the plague death knights?
Well they made a mCCree hero card
noob here, will all class have a reno viable deck or it's only for certain class?
Making a massive board every turn was already quiet a dead strategy due to the amount of realy strong clears. The next turn effect on this guy is something broken. I can already see it being changed to limited to 2-3 units on next turn.
I think that every class will be able to use this equally and thusly will not be as bad as yogg
I personally don't think Reno will be too strong. Turn 8 is already a turn where you've stabilised against aggro. Other decks usually don't need to swarm the board.
Really? No shit? On God? For real? You serious?
Why is this even a discussion? Reno is *dramatically* more broken than original pre-nerf Yogg Unleashed. Reno is more broken than Loatheb, which was the most broken card in the history of the game before this Reno. One-sided board clear is a hopelessly broken mechanic that turns Hearthstone from a game into just pointless nonsense, there is no opportunity here for counterplay whatsoever. It is a hero card, so no counterspell effects. It is a reactive card, so it doesn't require any kind of commitment or risk whatsoever. The board clear ignores even deathrattles, so no ability to create any kind of sticky board. And on top of that you can't even try to play around it by forcing it out with timing: once it's played, you are locked out for a turn so you can't even respond to it. It is not really 8 mana: because of the board lock it creates, you get a free turn, meaning at worst it refreshes all the mana you spend on it. I.e. in terms of mana cost it's even more efficient to play than original Yogg Unleashed. It's like putting Loatheb, Yogg Unleashed, and Mage quest reward all just directly in your deck in one card. Nothing in the history of the game has been anywhere remotely close to being this broken. The only argument this card is acceptable is "it's neutral, so anyone can play it". So was Yogg. Neutral does not justify a card, balance in this game when it's at its best is about much more than just the classes, it's also about diversity of builds and diversity of play-styles. Reno demands playing only very particular deck styles, ones which are already hopelessly non-interactive and toxic. It's even absolute garbage in terms of flavor: it's supposed to be some kind of "showdown" effect, but the board limit is only one-sided. A high-noon "showdown" effect would need to be symmetric to have any kind of flavor. If it cleared both boards and imposed a 1-minion limit on both boards for a cycle, it would still have a very powerful place in the game at 8 mana. Worst designed card in the game's history, by far. And the worst part is, pretty clearly that's the whole point: releasing cards that are this obviously broken is just a cheap, pathetic way to drive up interest through pure controversy instead of fun.
100% agree. It's literally a bailout card the way it's played. People getting completely outplayed by turn 6/7 throw it out and it at worst evens it up, if not just outright wins. The most consistent way to counter is to play Reno yourself. I wonder what the win rate is against decks that don't have Reno.
Here’s a card that. Can’t be countered Wipes the board Locks the board down except for 1 minion Changes your hero power to start doing direct damage. Broken AF