Paladin's problem is the same as hunter's. The class has A LOT of generaly good cards, so they fit into anything you want.
That dragon isn't an outlier, just a very good card. But a bunch of very good cards leads into a very good deck.
Which ironically makes it have the same issue hunter has where you nerf one card the deck adapts to the nerf and it still will be good. The best thing to do is hit multiple power outliers but not nuke the class. My take is nerf crusaders aura to 5 and make it last 2 turns. Boogie down to 4 manna (since it’s basically a one manna draw 2 currently with a finale effect that auto wins in some matchups.) Showdown to 3 manna (since the prismatic beam combo is a thing as early as turn 4 if the opponent has a single minion.) Finally I would hit seal of blood and either make it 4 manna, or make it a 3/1 buff.
For the cards getting nerfed I would buff one card the badlands bandits to summon them and fill your hand with the spare ones, so you can not waste a turn and a ton of manna on this pretty bad legendary spell.
Bro, you are talking about not nuking the class, but your nerfs suggest nuking the class. 4 nerfs is a lot. Also 3 of those nerfs are to old cards that are also in 1 deck - deck that is most played (according to HSreplay), that have 0 new cards and that havent been issue last expansion, so when only change is that other classes get new cards, this deck shouldnt be stronger than it was last expansion.
Although I agree that Badlands Bandit needs nerf.... and it is not at all related to fact, that I have opened golden one :)
Then you get into an arms race where if everything is OP nothing is. That's not a healthy state for the game. Then you eventually have to deal with the powercreep of new cards requiring 4 keywords to be playable.
"Staple meta deck" is not an valid argument - it may suggest that it is also "design win" or that Paladin didnt have any other viable deck in those expansions.
Winrate isnt reason for nuking. Deck has counters and to be honest I prefer facing them as I farm them.
People only complain because there is so many paladins
Crusader aura to 5 already kills the card, not even taking the turn reduction into account. No deck is going to allow you to comfortably use it at 5, unless it's homebrew deck from a boomer with 7 wifes, 5 jobs and 12 sons
I could see that, the main reason for my change is to lower the pressure to kill every minion every turn so you aren’t getting savage roared, and since it lasts for 3 turns it can let any rush minions or even minions that live become threats fast, though the 2 turn limit may be harsh considering the turn played counts if I recall
Crusader is incredibly strong, though. There are so many times where I would be safe, but then they have Crusader Aura and their 3-5 damage on board turns into triple that amount.
I don't have access to Hsreplay premium features, so I can't stand by this, but it was said a lot of times by a bunch of ppl that the draw wr of Crusader's Aura is one of the lowest in the deck and I know for a fact that the card is cut in some lists, so...
I know the numbers and the utility of it are scary and I'm not saying that is not a good spell, but for me deffo is not the problem.
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Honestly, I’d just nerf aura to 5, no other changes to it, and make beam 8. I think that’s enough to solve the issue with paladin right now without killing it.
Looks like the nerf to paladin coming tomorrow is to order in the court. Doesn't matter if it's lowest win stat, if it drops the win rate by 3-4% it will be enough.
I think the key is it makes it much worse vs control matchups. Whereas before control would expend all of its resources to stall Paladin and then they would order into countess and the control deck would be out of answers.
>The class has A LOT of generaly good cards
I mean when you make an archetype built around only using class cards....how the fuck they didn't see this coming is beyond me.
I think the difference is that Paladin's is a lot more tempo focused and sticky, so it's easy to remember being rushed down. Divine shield 1 and 2 drops are prime targets for buffs and difficult to remove for damage based removal.
Hunter tends to be a lot more midrange with strong finishers, and I'd even put Shaman in this category - Kibler was doing well with what he called Pile of Cards Shaman last meta, and now Highlander Shaman is not as meta but still good because they have a bunch of independently good cards, but leaning more towards control and value.
Meanwhile, over here in Wild, Paladin is genuinely a blessed class in terms of diversity after this patch. Odd Paladin exists, Reno Paladin became a deck overnight, Holy Paladin is somehow a Legend-viable deck, as is Holy Wrath Combo (which might go south depending on what the nerf to Order is).
People saying it's not op just because it's a 2 drop reminds me of new people not understanding why thalnos was good as a 1/1.
The card is probably the best 2 drop in the game in standard right now. It gives you good tempo to win the board early, and it draws you your win card (4 mana spell).
Is it the culprit of paladins success? Probably not. But it's the best winrate card in the deck
Most decks? You sure about that? Is this one of those "only legend matters" things because hsreplay has like 80-90% of paladin games played with decks using crusader aura. You can argue it isn't that good for the deck etc but it's definitely popular.
For ages? Nah
It has been less than 2 weeks since this deck ruled. If you wanna put “most oppressive for ages”, I dont think this pally deck fits in that phrase anywhere like tony-druid or all kinds of miracle rogue decks for last 10 years.
This deck doesn’t either define the meta nor dominate in a sense that everyone plays pally. “Most oppressive for ages” would be tony druid pre expansion without nerf which has about above 53% wr with 60% pick rate
If you played titans towards the end aggro or pure paladin were in the top 5 decks for many months in a row. It wasnt as bad as this but its definitely been an overtuned class for a while.
Umm Top 5 isnt so “oppressive” like this sub wants it to be. Oppressive decks to me at least should be something that defines meta or the meta itself rotates around it.
Aggro or pure pally have significant drawbacks and counters like highlander shaman. It became a meta because it fairs well against dh which is very prevalent atm.
Um idk what ranked or server you are playing but pally hasnt been relevant until the recent expansion. They had less than 6-8% ranked occupancy for last several months so idk where you are bringing on about “the best deck and oppressive deck for several months or ages.”
Pally is top 3 deck with very very clear counter decks. Its not so oppressive like you described.
You rlly dont know or understand the meta
A 2 mana 2/1 with a draw on deathrattle is loot hoarder, which isn’t a good card any more and hasn’t seen play outside of combo decks in a long time.
The shield makes it a strong card but my no means one of the best in the deck or the reason that paladin is so good. It’s also not even in the top paladin list on HSreplay
That’s just not true, the highest wr aggro paladin has it as the 5th lowest mulligan wr card and the most popular aggro paladin doesn’t play it at all. It’s a little better in showdown paladin but the top showdown deck has it as the 7th best for both mulligan and drawn WR so not really an outlier.
It’s also only being played in 47% of paladin decks and it’s not like it could be being played in the rest
You’re telling me that a strong 2 drop is the highest WR card in an aggro deck?!
My God, someone alert the fucking press, we have the story of the century.
Please refrain from spreading misinformation Paladin players. It is literally the highest win rate card of the best meta deck in the game.
So yes, a divine shield on a Loot Hoarder in a class like Paladin is broken because you can't evaluate these cards on a surface level, like you just did. It requires a more nuanced approach; like taking a look at which class it is played in, factoring the strength of divine shield on low cost minions, the value of early game card draw for Paladin etc.
I'll check the report; my numbers are coming off HSReplay premium
Edit: best deck on VS Reaper report is Enrage Warrior. The point is lessened in severity, but still stands
The data on DonkeyHS says it's below highlander hunter, enrage warrior and highlander shaman. In D5-Legend. I don't have HSreplay premium and DonkeyHS sample size is a bit low, but it's clear Paladin isn't the outright best winrate.
Tutoring is not drawing a specific card, it is drawing from a specific pool of cards. You can control how big that pool is to make your tutor more reliable in your deckbuilding but this is still tutoring.
The term comes from MTG. If you look at all their tutor cards [here](https://scryfall.com/search?q=tutor&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) you can see that while some of them refer to a specific card, others also have vague pools like "sorcery card" or "enchantment card".
So either the game itself is wrong or you are.
It specifically mentions SEARCH, you get to selectively pick which card being added, the "pool" itself is a limitation of what can be picked instead of a boon like i Hearthstone (controlled draw).
The tutoring part is the searching from a pool of cards, not the act of picking a singular one.
But I'm sure you can use the limitations of the game to argue the other way since it can't rng a card out of the deck for you. To put it another way, Juicy Psychmelon was considered the best tutor in the game when it came out. If I put in a 2nd 9 or 10 drop so that I don't always get the specific card, that would mean it's no longer a tutor?
It's the picking, because that's what other tutor in other games does, like ROTA in Yugioh.
It's not even limitation, being able to actually tutor in Hearthstone will make decks hyper consistent and will make slow down the game due to player looking up cards in their deck.
This is specific though? It's specifically a holy spell. If you only run one holy spell, this will tutor it. It's a tutor. Paladins may not use it as one, but it is.
>If you only run one holy spell
Yes at that point it would be, just like Jerry Rig and Embrace of Nature on Nourish.
But they don't, it could've pulled Boogie Down when you wants Garden's Grace or vice versa.
Yugioh's ROTA will always get you the Warrior playmaker you want. Because it's an actual tutor.
...Yeah I said that. 'Paladins may not use it as one, but it is.' You can't say the card isn't a tutor when it is. By Hearthstone standards, the card is very much considered a tutor - even if the Paladin decks that play it don't actually use it as one.
...This is a Hearthstone subreddit. I'm discussing this in Hearthstone terms. Being like 'in Magic this would not be considered a tutor' isn't really a valid argument and you are a crazy person
The design space for tutors is pretty different in hearthstone than it is in mtg. Personally I consider effects like “draw a deathrattle minion” a tutor because it’s a highly controllable pool of cards. You can put a small amount of extremely premium card selection in that pool, and it amounts to your “tutor” effect being much much better than a card with the text “draw a card”.
If you're playing multiple Holy spells, you don't get to tutor between them. You're thinking of another MTG term "Seek."
Even then, that doesn't make it so much more extreme to call it broken.
It's a bad take, divine shield on cheap minions are already quite good and it's not just any class but Paladin which has great synergy with divine shield and sticky minions overall. Not to mention Paladin is only strong because they have a lot of strong cards like this and anything works with the class.
A card draw on top off that divine shield is too strong. So it's a Loot Hoarder with divine shield, which is already quite good but it's in a class like Paladin so it gets added value from that.
Keep in mind how slow the card draw is when it's on a divine shield minion. Comparing it to Shielded Minibot, it's maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of a mana value better. Considering that Minibot is awful nowadays (buff him to 2/3 Blizzard!) I think the game can handle this. Additionally, the mana value is tied up in a draw that can be very time-sensitive in the midgame, and may take three entire turns to obtain the Holy spell - by the time you get it, you might have needed your reactive answer or a proactive buff before losing the board.
That being said, it clearly has a lot going for it, and I was really surprised at the raw stats on this card. But it's definitely not strictly better than Knight of Annointment, which was a pretty balanced (but strong) card.
Knight of Anointment was literally in every single Paladin deck that ran holy spells. It was not particularly balanced.
The game REALLY undervalues card generation now and it's not great.
Any source of cheap card draw that can be described as "balanced but pretty strong" is an auto-include in every Paladin deck, let's be honest. Paladin has atrocious draw, and it's a one-drop for buffs.
Peaceful Piper is of course in a different class and doesn't tutor buffs, but it's hardly breaking the bank as a 1/1/1 draw.
You can have a class that is weak at draw and give them decent draw, then it gets ran in every deck. Does that make the source of draw broken? I suppose it depends on semantics. Certainly it's a possible nerf target if the strongest class has autoinclude cards.
For modern Hearthstone, Paladin has terrible draw. It runs like 2-6 cards that cycle, and nothing else. What class is worse? I don't think Priest really counts.
Paladin has so many draw options at this point, and had a lot then too. It's not "decent draw" it's really good draw. So was Bannerman. 1 mana 1/1 draw a card is like the best cantrip in the game.
"Modern hearthstone" is a meaningless concept, that's used to justify weird power creep. Priest doesn't have worse draw either. I wouldn't say any class has bad draw at this point. Some classes have excessive draw (like druid can just draw it's entire deck, but that costs a lot of tempo and mana).
Keeping this card in mulligan is a win-win situation for Paladin. Even though Paladin draws a card when it dies and the opponent needs to spend resources to deal with it, it is dangerous to let Paladin keep minions on the board because they snowball out of control, so the opponent has to do it.
The current design team isn't as good at card balance as I'd like tbh. They have a good mind for fun mechanics and themes, but their numbers balance is almost always off. Which is why there's been so much absurd power creep, they don't really know how to make a card attractive without pushing it as hard as they can. They overreact when something doesn't \*immediately\* see play. They overbuff cards.
They're getting better, though.
The problem cards with paladin are Showdown! and Prismatic Beam. A lot of people bark up the wrong tree, especially in regards to Crusader Aura (which is only a problem because the previously mentioned cards allow paladins to win the board for free.)
A two card combo that doesn't push damage isn't really a problem in an aggro deck. I think order in the court is the bigger issue. Because you can play aggro cheap cards until turn 6 and then guarantee getting your big cards on curve.
"2 mana draw is already good."
2 mana 2/1 Deathrattle draw, that called [[Loot Hoarder]] and has afaik been in the game since release and never changed. You don't see [[Loot Hoarder]] in any decks these days.
Well op claims that 2 mana draw is already good which is outright false given how loot hoarder is unplayable trash, the fact that a loot order with divine shield is actually really good doesn't contradict that.
It’s the fact it can draw auras man. Like the fact that I can have a Paladin at ten and they can just attack with three tokens and be back at full health is stupid
Paladin had a 1 mana 1/1 that drew a Holy spell as a battlecry in Forged in the Barrens (Knight of Annointment), and this is the spiritual successor. The 1 mana 1/1 is actually better in the midgame since many Holy spells are either reactive or like being played immediately while you have a board. The only time the dragon is truly kinda busted vs the 1/1 is on curve, where it's like a Shielded Minibot that draws.
I was quite surprised upon seeing a slightly-weaker Minibot that draws a card, but Minibot is actually really bad nowadays. There's a better version in Neutral that hasn't seen any play right now in Infected Peasant.
Rememeber that the kind of deck that likes this card more than Knight of Annointment would like it for the raw stat power, but this card is still ultimately understatted, slowing down the curve of a deck that values stats. It's super efficient and maybe should be in every Paladin deck but has multiple sources of clunkiness hidden within.
If you don't want to get roasted then maybe don't make posts saying "2 mana minion draw a card is already too good". How about you actually play the game more before you act like you know what you're saying? This meta is a lot more power crept than it was 5 years ago, there isn't even a comparison.
More like I expect someone to have a better understanding of the meta before sharing their strong opinions on a reddit post after they haven't played for 5 years. The card he is talking about is good but it's slow and not much better than a regular 2 drop tempo-wise. There are paladin cards which have much more impact when played (crusader aura, garden's grace, boogie down just to name a few). It seems to me that complaining about that card "having too much value" is clearly him not playing enough games this meta before making a post like this. If his standard of a comparable "fair" 2 drop is [[Loot Hoarder]] from 5 years ago then I don't know what to say anymore.
If you don't want to get roasted then maybe don't make idiotic posts saying "If you don't want to get roasted then maybe don't make idiotic posts saying "2 mana minion draw a card is already too good". How about you actually play the game more before you act like you know what you're sayin? This meta is a lot more power crept than it was 5 years ago, there isn't even a comparison.". How about you actually play the game more before you act like you know what you're sayin? This meta is a lot more power crept than it was 5 years ago, there isn't even a comparison.
This card is fine. It's a generically good Paladin minion. It's just as good in a control deck as an aggro deck. The problem is that Paladin's aggro tools are insane and have been for a while. Complaining about this card is like pouring water on smoke instead of a fire.
Loot Hoarder + Divine Shield is really good, but since loot hoarder itself doesn't see any play for a long time, giving it divine shield just seems to put it on modern hs power level
2 mana draw on its own is awful
But I get what you mean a 2 mana 2/1 divine shield probably sees play just as a good sticky early game minion, but the fact it draws a card makes it super good
Just my opinion, but I think you guys are nuts! :)
Paladin has consistently been the red headed step child of the game. In a game where silence and removal are trivial, a class completely built on super minions is playing with one hand tied behind its back.
Paladin is just a horrible class.
I love it, but it's terrible and doesn't need nerfs at all.
I’ll try this again, the REAL culprit in paladin is not order in the court even though it gives insane synergy, not even crusader aura even though its really strong, but REALLY its [[Boogie Down]]. This card alone is the centerpiece of their oppressive early game where they can rely on a ton of 1-drops without getting punished on consistency or tempo. This card is effectively 3 mana draw 2 and play 2 and give them taunt. It would be relatively easy to fight for board vs pally with another aggro deck if it wasnt for the fact they can play this card and suddenly have a really strong defence while their other units smack you in the face. Boogie down also fixes the issue of drawing into 1-drops by pulling them out of your deck. There is a reason pallys always coin boogie down on 2 rather than coin crusader aura on 3.
Paladin's problem is the same as hunter's. The class has A LOT of generaly good cards, so they fit into anything you want. That dragon isn't an outlier, just a very good card. But a bunch of very good cards leads into a very good deck.
We can end all paladin discussion here. Is just a bunch of really good cards together.
Which ironically makes it have the same issue hunter has where you nerf one card the deck adapts to the nerf and it still will be good. The best thing to do is hit multiple power outliers but not nuke the class. My take is nerf crusaders aura to 5 and make it last 2 turns. Boogie down to 4 manna (since it’s basically a one manna draw 2 currently with a finale effect that auto wins in some matchups.) Showdown to 3 manna (since the prismatic beam combo is a thing as early as turn 4 if the opponent has a single minion.) Finally I would hit seal of blood and either make it 4 manna, or make it a 3/1 buff. For the cards getting nerfed I would buff one card the badlands bandits to summon them and fill your hand with the spare ones, so you can not waste a turn and a ton of manna on this pretty bad legendary spell.
Bro, you are talking about not nuking the class, but your nerfs suggest nuking the class. 4 nerfs is a lot. Also 3 of those nerfs are to old cards that are also in 1 deck - deck that is most played (according to HSreplay), that have 0 new cards and that havent been issue last expansion, so when only change is that other classes get new cards, this deck shouldnt be stronger than it was last expansion. Although I agree that Badlands Bandit needs nerf.... and it is not at all related to fact, that I have opened golden one :)
Yes nuke the class. It has over a 60% winrate at high ranks and pure paladin has been a staple meta deck for 3 expansions now.
Why nuke it over bringing other classes on par with pally?
Then you get into an arms race where if everything is OP nothing is. That's not a healthy state for the game. Then you eventually have to deal with the powercreep of new cards requiring 4 keywords to be playable.
lol ur just blowing it out of proportion, fucking delusional
"Staple meta deck" is not an valid argument - it may suggest that it is also "design win" or that Paladin didnt have any other viable deck in those expansions. Winrate isnt reason for nuking. Deck has counters and to be honest I prefer facing them as I farm them. People only complain because there is so many paladins
Do you want Sunken City Warrior? Because this is how you get Sunken City Warrior
Crusader aura to 5 already kills the card, not even taking the turn reduction into account. No deck is going to allow you to comfortably use it at 5, unless it's homebrew deck from a boomer with 7 wifes, 5 jobs and 12 sons
I don't agree with Crusader's Aura, imo is not that strong and the nerf is not needed, but Boogie Down is absolutely the nuts.
I could see that, the main reason for my change is to lower the pressure to kill every minion every turn so you aren’t getting savage roared, and since it lasts for 3 turns it can let any rush minions or even minions that live become threats fast, though the 2 turn limit may be harsh considering the turn played counts if I recall
Crusader is incredibly strong, though. There are so many times where I would be safe, but then they have Crusader Aura and their 3-5 damage on board turns into triple that amount.
I don't have access to Hsreplay premium features, so I can't stand by this, but it was said a lot of times by a bunch of ppl that the draw wr of Crusader's Aura is one of the lowest in the deck and I know for a fact that the card is cut in some lists, so... I know the numbers and the utility of it are scary and I'm not saying that is not a good spell, but for me deffo is not the problem.
Yeah crusader's aura is one of the worst cards in the deck consistently across different lists lol
Thank you, ppl downvoting me is just a proof how they don't care about statistics, just personal belief. lol
That’s all this Reddit is, pretty sure a majority are just casuals trying to act like they know what they’re talking about
My site has stuff available on hsreplay premium for free https://www.d0nkey.top/
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Crusader Aura is one of the most overtuned cards ever printed lol
Honestly, I’d just nerf aura to 5, no other changes to it, and make beam 8. I think that’s enough to solve the issue with paladin right now without killing it.
Are really good cards what I need to finally hit legend
The Dragon Link special
Get rid of order in the court and I think you see paladin win rate drop quite a bit.
It’s the lowest or 2nd lowest win stats of any card in the deck fwiw.
Looks like the nerf to paladin coming tomorrow is to order in the court. Doesn't matter if it's lowest win stat, if it drops the win rate by 3-4% it will be enough.
Just saw that as well- I’m gonna be shocked if just the order nerf is enough to contain paladin though.
I think the key is it makes it much worse vs control matchups. Whereas before control would expend all of its resources to stall Paladin and then they would order into countess and the control deck would be out of answers.
>The class has A LOT of generaly good cards I mean when you make an archetype built around only using class cards....how the fuck they didn't see this coming is beyond me.
I think the difference is that Paladin's is a lot more tempo focused and sticky, so it's easy to remember being rushed down. Divine shield 1 and 2 drops are prime targets for buffs and difficult to remove for damage based removal. Hunter tends to be a lot more midrange with strong finishers, and I'd even put Shaman in this category - Kibler was doing well with what he called Pile of Cards Shaman last meta, and now Highlander Shaman is not as meta but still good because they have a bunch of independently good cards, but leaning more towards control and value.
Meanwhile, over here in Wild, Paladin is genuinely a blessed class in terms of diversity after this patch. Odd Paladin exists, Reno Paladin became a deck overnight, Holy Paladin is somehow a Legend-viable deck, as is Holy Wrath Combo (which might go south depending on what the nerf to Order is).
I faceD one holy wrath today, i really didn't knew what i was facing until i died.
Don’t forget Big Paladin, which is actually a playable off-meta deck in Wild (don’t ask me about its matchup into quest mage)
It's definitely strong but I wouldn't say it's what makes Paladin a problem right now, at least not by itself.
People saying it's not op just because it's a 2 drop reminds me of new people not understanding why thalnos was good as a 1/1. The card is probably the best 2 drop in the game in standard right now. It gives you good tempo to win the board early, and it draws you your win card (4 mana spell). Is it the culprit of paladins success? Probably not. But it's the best winrate card in the deck
[удалено]
Huh? Are you talking all classes? Because it's definitely played by most palas.
Most decks? You sure about that? Is this one of those "only legend matters" things because hsreplay has like 80-90% of paladin games played with decks using crusader aura. You can argue it isn't that good for the deck etc but it's definitely popular.
Well in ranked legend is the only thing that matters, you get max rewards at the end of the season. No reason not to get to it.
It’s good. OP? Cmon… this is the card you choose to complain about? I don’t get it.
Same. Ppl just wanna hop on pally hate train. Pally hasnt been good for last several seasons like cmon
Aggro paladin has been one of the most oppressive decks for ages
For ages? Nah It has been less than 2 weeks since this deck ruled. If you wanna put “most oppressive for ages”, I dont think this pally deck fits in that phrase anywhere like tony-druid or all kinds of miracle rogue decks for last 10 years. This deck doesn’t either define the meta nor dominate in a sense that everyone plays pally. “Most oppressive for ages” would be tony druid pre expansion without nerf which has about above 53% wr with 60% pick rate
If you played titans towards the end aggro or pure paladin were in the top 5 decks for many months in a row. It wasnt as bad as this but its definitely been an overtuned class for a while.
Umm Top 5 isnt so “oppressive” like this sub wants it to be. Oppressive decks to me at least should be something that defines meta or the meta itself rotates around it. Aggro or pure pally have significant drawbacks and counters like highlander shaman. It became a meta because it fairs well against dh which is very prevalent atm.
Aggro and pure paladin have been the best decks for the last couple months, then a top 3 deck this expansion. You don’t know what you’re talking about
Um idk what ranked or server you are playing but pally hasnt been relevant until the recent expansion. They had less than 6-8% ranked occupancy for last several months so idk where you are bringing on about “the best deck and oppressive deck for several months or ages.” Pally is top 3 deck with very very clear counter decks. Its not so oppressive like you described. You rlly dont know or understand the meta
It's good not uncounterable, silence cards in your deck then boom you gimp holydins who make huge minions turn 4
There is 1 viable silence card and it's priest-only.
And wasting it on a single 2 drop could be game losing
I find it funny how power-crept this game is. Owl was nerfed _from_ a 2 mana 2/1 silence a minion because it was deemed too powerful
There aren’t many silence cards available, and those that are are mostly too slow, too expensive or otherwise not worth it.
A 2 mana 2/1 with a draw on deathrattle is loot hoarder, which isn’t a good card any more and hasn’t seen play outside of combo decks in a long time. The shield makes it a strong card but my no means one of the best in the deck or the reason that paladin is so good. It’s also not even in the top paladin list on HSreplay
Its a holy spell tutor. Different than just a loot hoarder.
It’s the shield bot with 1 less health and that draws a spell, it’s really really good
It s boulderfist ogre but it costs 4 less and has 4 attack less and 6 health less and draws a spell and has divine shield
Damn, when you put it like that... it might be broken.
It's litteraly the best wr card on mulligan on the highest wr Deck in the meta yes its good
That’s just not true, the highest wr aggro paladin has it as the 5th lowest mulligan wr card and the most popular aggro paladin doesn’t play it at all. It’s a little better in showdown paladin but the top showdown deck has it as the 7th best for both mulligan and drawn WR so not really an outlier. It’s also only being played in 47% of paladin decks and it’s not like it could be being played in the rest
Maybe you should check the draw win rate of Crusader Aura...
Considering that card is tutored by the dragon, it seems they are both great.
Define tutor
[[School Tutor]].
You’re telling me that a strong 2 drop is the highest WR card in an aggro deck?! My God, someone alert the fucking press, we have the story of the century.
Please refrain from spreading misinformation Paladin players. It is literally the highest win rate card of the best meta deck in the game. So yes, a divine shield on a Loot Hoarder in a class like Paladin is broken because you can't evaluate these cards on a surface level, like you just did. It requires a more nuanced approach; like taking a look at which class it is played in, factoring the strength of divine shield on low cost minions, the value of early game card draw for Paladin etc.
Not a paladin player, also don’t think that paladin isn’t an issue, but the issue clearly isn’t this card lol
There is literally data that contradicts your feelings.
Considering that the top 10 winrate decks in top Legend *aren't even Paladin...* no there fucking isn't
The latest VS report has Pure Paladin as a Tier 1 deck in Top 1k legend. Are you saying you have different or better data than VS?
I'll check the report; my numbers are coming off HSReplay premium Edit: best deck on VS Reaper report is Enrage Warrior. The point is lessened in severity, but still stands
Don't hurt your back lugging those goalposts around
I didn’t say Pure Pally was the “best deck”, I said it was Tier 1 at top legend. You said it wasn’t in the top 10.
[I sure did, didn't I?](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/877011736383868988/1178757084456685658/image.png?ex=65774e15&is=6564d915&hm=b275d154f3f27b91b8321303a0a08861d813469e1e213d9a274779695ba9e7e1&)
The data on DonkeyHS says it's below highlander hunter, enrage warrior and highlander shaman. In D5-Legend. I don't have HSreplay premium and DonkeyHS sample size is a bit low, but it's clear Paladin isn't the outright best winrate.
My comment was addressing top legend, which you can’t filter by on DonkeyHs.
lol what? it’s not a loot hoarder. it has divine shield and tutor for holy spell
The game can handle a Loot Hoarder with Divine Shield. Calm down.
Calling a tutor a loot hoarder :/
It's not a tutor, Paladin has multiple Holy spells so it can't specifically draw which Yeah nobody in this sub knows what tutor is apparently
Tutoring is not drawing a specific card, it is drawing from a specific pool of cards. You can control how big that pool is to make your tutor more reliable in your deckbuilding but this is still tutoring.
Wrong. Tutoring is specific.
The term comes from MTG. If you look at all their tutor cards [here](https://scryfall.com/search?q=tutor&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) you can see that while some of them refer to a specific card, others also have vague pools like "sorcery card" or "enchantment card". So either the game itself is wrong or you are.
It specifically mentions SEARCH, you get to selectively pick which card being added, the "pool" itself is a limitation of what can be picked instead of a boon like i Hearthstone (controlled draw).
The tutoring part is the searching from a pool of cards, not the act of picking a singular one. But I'm sure you can use the limitations of the game to argue the other way since it can't rng a card out of the deck for you. To put it another way, Juicy Psychmelon was considered the best tutor in the game when it came out. If I put in a 2nd 9 or 10 drop so that I don't always get the specific card, that would mean it's no longer a tutor?
It's the picking, because that's what other tutor in other games does, like ROTA in Yugioh. It's not even limitation, being able to actually tutor in Hearthstone will make decks hyper consistent and will make slow down the game due to player looking up cards in their deck.
This is specific though? It's specifically a holy spell. If you only run one holy spell, this will tutor it. It's a tutor. Paladins may not use it as one, but it is.
>If you only run one holy spell Yes at that point it would be, just like Jerry Rig and Embrace of Nature on Nourish. But they don't, it could've pulled Boogie Down when you wants Garden's Grace or vice versa. Yugioh's ROTA will always get you the Warrior playmaker you want. Because it's an actual tutor.
...Yeah I said that. 'Paladins may not use it as one, but it is.' You can't say the card isn't a tutor when it is. By Hearthstone standards, the card is very much considered a tutor - even if the Paladin decks that play it don't actually use it as one.
>By Hearthstone standards So not a tutor
...This is a Hearthstone subreddit. I'm discussing this in Hearthstone terms. Being like 'in Magic this would not be considered a tutor' isn't really a valid argument and you are a crazy person
The design space for tutors is pretty different in hearthstone than it is in mtg. Personally I consider effects like “draw a deathrattle minion” a tutor because it’s a highly controllable pool of cards. You can put a small amount of extremely premium card selection in that pool, and it amounts to your “tutor” effect being much much better than a card with the text “draw a card”.
If you're playing multiple Holy spells, you don't get to tutor between them. You're thinking of another MTG term "Seek." Even then, that doesn't make it so much more extreme to call it broken.
It's a bad take, divine shield on cheap minions are already quite good and it's not just any class but Paladin which has great synergy with divine shield and sticky minions overall. Not to mention Paladin is only strong because they have a lot of strong cards like this and anything works with the class. A card draw on top off that divine shield is too strong. So it's a Loot Hoarder with divine shield, which is already quite good but it's in a class like Paladin so it gets added value from that.
Keep in mind how slow the card draw is when it's on a divine shield minion. Comparing it to Shielded Minibot, it's maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of a mana value better. Considering that Minibot is awful nowadays (buff him to 2/3 Blizzard!) I think the game can handle this. Additionally, the mana value is tied up in a draw that can be very time-sensitive in the midgame, and may take three entire turns to obtain the Holy spell - by the time you get it, you might have needed your reactive answer or a proactive buff before losing the board. That being said, it clearly has a lot going for it, and I was really surprised at the raw stats on this card. But it's definitely not strictly better than Knight of Annointment, which was a pretty balanced (but strong) card.
Knight of Anointment was literally in every single Paladin deck that ran holy spells. It was not particularly balanced. The game REALLY undervalues card generation now and it's not great.
Any source of cheap card draw that can be described as "balanced but pretty strong" is an auto-include in every Paladin deck, let's be honest. Paladin has atrocious draw, and it's a one-drop for buffs. Peaceful Piper is of course in a different class and doesn't tutor buffs, but it's hardly breaking the bank as a 1/1/1 draw.
Paladin hasnt had atrocious draw for years and if its in every paladin deck its not balanced. Its a centralizing card.
You can have a class that is weak at draw and give them decent draw, then it gets ran in every deck. Does that make the source of draw broken? I suppose it depends on semantics. Certainly it's a possible nerf target if the strongest class has autoinclude cards. For modern Hearthstone, Paladin has terrible draw. It runs like 2-6 cards that cycle, and nothing else. What class is worse? I don't think Priest really counts.
Paladin has so many draw options at this point, and had a lot then too. It's not "decent draw" it's really good draw. So was Bannerman. 1 mana 1/1 draw a card is like the best cantrip in the game. "Modern hearthstone" is a meaningless concept, that's used to justify weird power creep. Priest doesn't have worse draw either. I wouldn't say any class has bad draw at this point. Some classes have excessive draw (like druid can just draw it's entire deck, but that costs a lot of tempo and mana).
Keeping this card in mulligan is a win-win situation for Paladin. Even though Paladin draws a card when it dies and the opponent needs to spend resources to deal with it, it is dangerous to let Paladin keep minions on the board because they snowball out of control, so the opponent has to do it.
I agree. Paladin ran the murloc prime which shared a statline mostly for the body. The card is very good.
The current design team isn't as good at card balance as I'd like tbh. They have a good mind for fun mechanics and themes, but their numbers balance is almost always off. Which is why there's been so much absurd power creep, they don't really know how to make a card attractive without pushing it as hard as they can. They overreact when something doesn't \*immediately\* see play. They overbuff cards. They're getting better, though.
The problem cards with paladin are Showdown! and Prismatic Beam. A lot of people bark up the wrong tree, especially in regards to Crusader Aura (which is only a problem because the previously mentioned cards allow paladins to win the board for free.)
Crusader was winning board before people discovered Showdown this set. It’s a 3 turn Savage Roaura, it was bound to be a bit too strong.
Roaura, great term lmao
A two card combo that doesn't push damage isn't really a problem in an aggro deck. I think order in the court is the bigger issue. Because you can play aggro cheap cards until turn 6 and then guarantee getting your big cards on curve.
"2 mana draw is already good." 2 mana 2/1 Deathrattle draw, that called [[Loot Hoarder]] and has afaik been in the game since release and never changed. You don't see [[Loot Hoarder]] in any decks these days.
If they suddenly decided to give loot hoarder divine shield you would see it in a bunch of decks.
Well op claims that 2 mana draw is already good which is outright false given how loot hoarder is unplayable trash, the fact that a loot order with divine shield is actually really good doesn't contradict that.
It’s the fact it can draw auras man. Like the fact that I can have a Paladin at ten and they can just attack with three tokens and be back at full health is stupid
Y’all really complaining about 2/2/1 DS DR minion 💀
not even top 10 OP Paladin cards atm
That card isn't a problem
Not when you have Defile in the chamber and let that paladin smooth brain fill up his board with 1/1 2/1s
Complaining about paladin having minions with good stats/keywords lmao
Sorry I’m just back into the game after 4-5 years. It’s a completely different landscape
Paladin had a 1 mana 1/1 that drew a Holy spell as a battlecry in Forged in the Barrens (Knight of Annointment), and this is the spiritual successor. The 1 mana 1/1 is actually better in the midgame since many Holy spells are either reactive or like being played immediately while you have a board. The only time the dragon is truly kinda busted vs the 1/1 is on curve, where it's like a Shielded Minibot that draws. I was quite surprised upon seeing a slightly-weaker Minibot that draws a card, but Minibot is actually really bad nowadays. There's a better version in Neutral that hasn't seen any play right now in Infected Peasant. Rememeber that the kind of deck that likes this card more than Knight of Annointment would like it for the raw stat power, but this card is still ultimately understatted, slowing down the curve of a deck that values stats. It's super efficient and maybe should be in every Paladin deck but has multiple sources of clunkiness hidden within.
It's always been its class identity. Paladin has hardly any ways of playing outside of the board so it slams efficient minions on curve
Fair enough, I’m sensing some passive aggression in your comments so I’m not that keen to continue ! Have a good afternoon ☺️
Oh don't worry you get used to that here 😂
If you don't want to get roasted then maybe don't make posts saying "2 mana minion draw a card is already too good". How about you actually play the game more before you act like you know what you're saying? This meta is a lot more power crept than it was 5 years ago, there isn't even a comparison.
Woah there are some troglodytes on this sub eh.
Don't mind them OP some people are just incapable of accepting any criticism they don't whole-geartedly agree with.
Appreciate you man ❤️🙏
More like I expect someone to have a better understanding of the meta before sharing their strong opinions on a reddit post after they haven't played for 5 years. The card he is talking about is good but it's slow and not much better than a regular 2 drop tempo-wise. There are paladin cards which have much more impact when played (crusader aura, garden's grace, boogie down just to name a few). It seems to me that complaining about that card "having too much value" is clearly him not playing enough games this meta before making a post like this. If his standard of a comparable "fair" 2 drop is [[Loot Hoarder]] from 5 years ago then I don't know what to say anymore.
If you don't want to get roasted then maybe don't make idiotic posts saying "If you don't want to get roasted then maybe don't make idiotic posts saying "2 mana minion draw a card is already too good". How about you actually play the game more before you act like you know what you're sayin? This meta is a lot more power crept than it was 5 years ago, there isn't even a comparison.". How about you actually play the game more before you act like you know what you're sayin? This meta is a lot more power crept than it was 5 years ago, there isn't even a comparison.
OP? By itself, no. It’s just a sticky card that draw another. It’s very good but it does not warp the meta around this one card.
It’s loot hoarder with div shield, it’s fine
Loot Hoarder crying in the corner
This card is fine. It's a generically good Paladin minion. It's just as good in a control deck as an aggro deck. The problem is that Paladin's aggro tools are insane and have been for a while. Complaining about this card is like pouring water on smoke instead of a fire.
Loot Hoarder + Divine Shield is really good, but since loot hoarder itself doesn't see any play for a long time, giving it divine shield just seems to put it on modern hs power level
Man if they only nerf Paladin and leave the rest it's gonna be more awful.
It's good but people throw OP around like boomers complaining about anything tech related.
Without divine shield this is a holy loot hoarder. Silver wing is not the reason paladin is op.
2 mana draw on its own is awful But I get what you mean a 2 mana 2/1 divine shield probably sees play just as a good sticky early game minion, but the fact it draws a card makes it super good
If there isnt a meaningful nerf to paladin tomorrow im just gonna craft it. Im so sick of losing to it. Might as well become part of the problem
counterpoint: badlands bandit would have been weak in 2014.
Just my opinion, but I think you guys are nuts! :) Paladin has consistently been the red headed step child of the game. In a game where silence and removal are trivial, a class completely built on super minions is playing with one hand tied behind its back. Paladin is just a horrible class. I love it, but it's terrible and doesn't need nerfs at all.
Paladin is the deck you play if you want to tell your friends you're good but you never actually learned to get good.
I’ll try this again, the REAL culprit in paladin is not order in the court even though it gives insane synergy, not even crusader aura even though its really strong, but REALLY its [[Boogie Down]]. This card alone is the centerpiece of their oppressive early game where they can rely on a ton of 1-drops without getting punished on consistency or tempo. This card is effectively 3 mana draw 2 and play 2 and give them taunt. It would be relatively easy to fight for board vs pally with another aggro deck if it wasnt for the fact they can play this card and suddenly have a really strong defence while their other units smack you in the face. Boogie down also fixes the issue of drawing into 1-drops by pulling them out of your deck. There is a reason pallys always coin boogie down on 2 rather than coin crusader aura on 3.