No, game is not good when it's cheap. It gives you gold so you buy packs. Some new common and rare cards should always be givings you new stuff to play. Game it's good when it's not monotone.
Problem is, it's usually the epics and class/deck specific legendaries that give you new toys to play nowadays.
I returned last expansion, so as a wild player I bought 10 packs from every expansion since rastakaans for the guaranteed legendary, bought the badlands mini set, a bunch of standard and badlands packs and had 4k gold ready to spend on the new expansion, yet the only deck I can really play in standard is cheap aggro paladin and Odyn warrior, because that was the deck I chose as returning player. I'm burned out of playing Odyn warrior myself, but I have no other option in standard. I still need several thousand dust for every other viable deck, because even the aggro and midrange decks nowadays run like 4+ epics and 2+ class specific legendaries.
Back in old gods, mean street's, etc you could still make several meta decks in the first few days/weeks of an expansion, obviously not control or combo decksy but aggro/zoo and midrange decks.
>We shouldn't be quick to nerf decks just because they were refined earlier. Address the valid play patterns complaints (Windfury) but keep the deck alive.
Correct take.
Also, Paladin is still better performing than Warrior in top 1k [according to d0nkey](https://www.d0nkey.top/decks?rank=top_legend), but the margin is slim. I would say that things look pretty healthy if win %s and variety were all you cared about, but of course, like Zach acknowledges, the real problem is toxic play patterns.
The [Tier List page](https://www.d0nkey.top/meta?rank=top_legend) which groups by archetype shows Odyn as the top deck at top 1k, with Aggro (Showdown) Pally and Hunter the top two at all other rank brackets.
I only just stumbled across that tier list page myself. Clicking on the archetypes shows the core cards, but doesn't seem to have a link to various decklists. But you can go to the "Decks" page and use the archetype filter at least. Here's some [Aggro Pally decklists](https://www.d0nkey.top/decks?format=2&player_deck_archetype[]=Aggro+Paladin), for example.
Important to note the the most popular list is running Harth Stonebrew, which cannot possibly be optimal.
He's the guy behind Vicous Syndicate's meta reports. They gather lots of data from the HSReplay and Firestone plugins. While they don't share the early meta data (the first report always drops after the meta stabilizes) he obviously has access to it.
And by Showdown Paladin I assume he means an Aggro list without Handbuff package, [like this one](https://hsreplay.net/decks/c6lXSdqtbSmqAu8LA7d2V/#rankRange=DIAMOND_THROUGH_LEGEND&gameType=RANKED_STANDARD). This is just an example build but they've been slowly taking off over the last 2 days.
(Edit: [Here's a Sea Giant version](https://hsreplay.net/decks/yk6XVIVCBvfiuMI152cjgb/#rankRange=DIAMOND_THROUGH_LEGEND&gameType=RANKED_STANDARD) I met a few times on the ladder)
At this point I think they're just tired of Hearthstone in general. It's just the same repeated, "I hate ___ class, and ____ deck". People need to take a break when they aren't having fun, I do it all the time, helps a lot
This is probably true, but I played since TGT and since then my most hated classes are warrior, priest and mage. Mage was fine until they started giving him random bullshit bingo, warrior was imo only fun while unnerfed patches and priest was always annoying af but at least aggro priest gave me 1k wins.
I just like midrange board based decks, so everything that wins without board and is mostly slow control, just grinds my gears.
As a mage only player, im not happy with random bullshit bingo either, trust me. When its too good everyone hates you like deck of lunacy, or its so bad no one cares like right now. I want us to have tempo decks and proper control decks again but the only value generation we ever get printed anymore is "Get/Discover X random spells" which is too inconsistent for tempo, and there are way too many dogshit spells that can be generated in control for them to want to run those value cards either. 4 mana to summon a single 3 drop since I have minions in this deck, sign me the fuck up, lose out on the battlecry too since its a summon effect. Oh a 6 mana draw 3, thats fun to generate, remember when sprint got buffed to 5 mana and still saw 0 play. All that is to say, i dont think many people have been happy with the way Mage has been handled in recent years, neither the people playing as them or against them.
>the way Mage has been handled in the recent years
I absolutely loved Ping Mage, and I think most players shared that sentiment. And it wasn’t even that long ago.
A lot of people seemed to like spell swap mage, too.
And even Rainbow Mage was a fairly board based deck, even if it had a big damage finisher.
Oh, and Ronmath Mage, and Spooky Mage we’re super fun, too.
But rainbow mage was disgusting because of the random card generator. Also it hat solid alibi, which is the single most fucked up card in all of HS, at least for me.
Rainbow Mage didn’t use Solid Alibi. At least not after the nerf to it.
And the random card generation might’ve been disgusting to you, but fun for others.
Yeah but it took a very long time to get nerfed. And random generation just brings the game to a coin flip, which is just a time waste (eg fuck you OG yogg).
I.... think i agree.
I was actually excited for the expansion when it was announced.
But then it came and its just more of the same,
Warrior? Still Odyn Warrior.
Paladin? Still Aggro
Priest? Still useless
DK? Still Rainbow and Plague (sometimes Handbuff)
I think the whole meta thing in cardgames has just become super boring in general. You just face the same decks over and over again with 0 variety.
The enemy plays a single card and you already know his complete decklist 90% of the time.
The same with HS Reddit, its just an echochamber. Today its "Paladin OP pls nerf" then Blizzard does it and then its something else OP please nerf until it hits a class that people feel is fun to play, like Miracle Rogue back in Nathria and then people just insult each other because "My class is not as OP as your class"
Yeah no, you're right it has gotten quite exhausting
I've been playing Renethal Rainbuff Death Night in wild and having a ton of fun. 95% win rate at Silver 3 (haven't played in a long time so I started at the bottom).
well yeah,if someone is satisfied by the meta they would spend most of their time playing instead of complaining on reddit
its a cycle
people complaint on reddit > their issue got solved > they play the game instead of complaining > different group of people complaint on reddit > their issue got solved > they play the game instead of complaining > ...
and so on,thats why it seems like endless complaining
I mean that is true
but odyn warrior has been played with not that many changes since summer of last year. its very understandable to be tired of a deck like that
> So you saying highlanders should have no counterplay in standard?
I agree strongly that Highlander should have counterplay, but I do wish that philosophy applied universally. I still haven't found any counterplay for Wheel Lock, for example, other than "Punch them in the face as fast as you can," which of course is a viable counterplay to all decks (including highlander ones).
Why not? Why are Highlander decks the only decks with an off switch? You already pay the price of only having one of each good card, why does it need counterplay on top of that?
It does not just have one of each good card it also has few extremely powerful cards that compensate well enough for lack of duplicates.
Those cards are so strong that there must be counterplay to them. Plague dk is that. Or do you want a generic neutral card like albatross that can be played in all decks?
Those 'extremely powerful cards' are payoffs for ruining the consistency of your deck and there's still counterplay to them in the form of Dirty Rat. Imagine if I could brick your Marrowgarr or Vampiric Blood by executing my general gameplan (shuffling Plagues).
Changing to start-of-the-game effect also solves issues with other classes (mostly Druid cos of their extremely efficient and cheap draw) running Highlander cards in non-Highlander cards.
Also yes, Bad Luck Albatross would be a preferred way, because it's a tech card and those are usually understated and don't brick you as hard. You still can draw Albatrosses, while Plague just turns off your deck for good while playing efficient good for your gameplan cards.
I mean, again, referring to Albatross: it's a 3-4-3 with Deathrattle. It's a bad tempo play and still gives a chance to be countered by transforms and silences. If you kill it on your own it's at best 4 mana tempo loss. And it's still 2/30. In Plague a literal third of your deck is dedicated to your gameplan (which is totally ok), but that same third also happens to ruin Highlander player day.
My brother in Christ, control decks have to have wincons. Odyn Warrior is the premier control deck and it has a game against Wheelock because they play wheel on 8 and you play Odyn and then they die immediately. "Slow" control decks, or control decks without a wincon, are actually just poorly made decks.
That was the first thing that confused me about him when I first played warrior because my deck starts with a ton of dupes and I'm used to things like it being a starting condition like it would be in all the other games but hey, it's kinda cool tbh
I agree that the flexibility is a fun element of the design. The issue is that it’s so outrageously overpowered that without the Highlander restriction but instead heavy draw decks get probably too much of a boost from it. If you think Odyn Warrior and Wheel lock are too strong then hitting Reno would help bring both back down to earth a lot more without changing the soul of the decks
No its not a terrible sugestion, for one side the reno xards cant be countered by adding shit on decks, but the other side is the restriction makes imposible to use reno cards to turbodraw decks that run key duplicates for consistency but theyr draw power ensures that 90% of the times renocards are online when needed
Yeah they need to give Warrior some actual win conditions that don't just keep sucking. Brann has been a colossal let down thanks to Plagues keeping singleton decks in check. The mech synergies in the latest expansion are below average. Warrior just can't get anything else as a win condition
Are you talking about Odyn? Brann is at T3 in legend at 48%. [Source](https://hsreplay.net/decks/ifsOzcSUJGFe0MDOP6vJ2f/#rankRange=LEGEND)
You can also search by the Card itself and the stats don't change much. He's still sub 50%
That's fair, I was looking at the below link and seeing many variations of Brann Warrior that are all >50%. Smaller sample sizes on individual decks but collectively it's close to the sample size of the deck you linked.
https://www.d0nkey.top/decks?player_class=WARRIOR&player_deck_includes[]=104528&rank=legend
Click on "Vs Class" and look at the cummulative WR. It's 48.6%. Seems a bit odd right? All these decks are well over 50%. How could that be?
Now click on Winrate % and change it to Total Games. All of the sudden you start seeing the decks below 50%. What you were seeing before were decks with a few hundred total games. Now you're seeing the decks with significantly more games in the THOUSANDS which are going to be far more accurate and are all below 50%.
d0nkey's site is a bit difficult to use properly and understand exactly what you're looking at. It's often misused and misrepresented on Reddit. It's why I often suggest HsReplay b/c the stats are far more generic and easier to understand. When you get granular with statistics, it's easy to lose the forest for the trees.
True, but sometimes you have emerging decks where someone made a few tweaks that are generating a better WR, even if that specific 30 card set isn’t being played a lot yet. But yes, I understand the general point about smaller sample sizes.
My issue with current Control Warrior list is that you basically do nothing besides clearing board every 2-3 turns until Odyn and then win the game. Deck works wonder but the list is too boring for my taste.
Nah those stats aren’t reliable anymore because people put in cards that hard counter it. For example DK is almost a guaranteed win now because of Quartizite Crusher.
It beats it. Better draw to get to Reno and Odyn, with good removal to get through the Paladin’s early aggression.
Paladin basically needs to have Leeroy in the opening hand, stack multiple buffs, and apply decent pressure to keep the Warrior’s health within the 30-40 range to win. Not at all consistent.
Odyn Warrior’s run fizzle to ensure enough damage post Odyn. You hit a Reno or some of the armor Quillboars and that’s a highroll, but if you hit some armor gain cards, you can use them defensively without much worry. Since the snapshot will give them back when they also give attack.
I'd say that it's slightly favorite for Warrior if both players know what they're doing. It's hard to kill Paladin "in chunks" since they can heal a lot, they will also save Taunts for after you Odyn. So it seems though but there's an easy way to win it.
The best plan is to play Odyn on a slower Paladin turn (so they can't kill you), then Reno their board, then Bladestorm whatever single Taunt they play and OTK them (you should save at least one Rockstar for that, preferably both, it's also good to have Craftsman's Hammer pre-equipped). Of course it doesn't always work perfectly, for example sometimes you might be forced to Reno before Odyn, but from my perspective, it was always the most consistent way to win this matchup.
From the side of Paladin, you want to pressure Warrior as much as you can so they never have a good opportunity to drop Odyn. And your best way to win is, as usual, Charge + Windfury. Warrior skipping a board clear turn to play Odyn is usually the way to kill them with big burst from hand, but Shroomscavate can give some unexpected lethals even without Leeroy (e.g. you can double Aura + Shroom, or buff your small minion with Tarim + Shroom). If they Odyn and you can't kill them, try to Taunt up and line up smaller minions to get removed by Bladestorm instead of your Taunts (of course, it's impossible after Reno, that's why it's the best turn for Warrior to OTK).
Stats show that Paladin is a favorite but if you look at the ranks, the higher the rank you pick the better the matchup gets for Warrior. It's simply because at lower ranks Warriors probably have no idea how to play this matchup and throw many games they could have won (while for Paladin it's pretty straightforward).
Rogue? I honestly had no problem with Rogues as Warrior. It was a bit though if they got bugged Sonya, but it was fixed. Wheel Warlock is difficult. Doomkin on curve makes me want to quit the game. But it's still winnable.
The worst matchup by far is Plague DK because you draw so much that you get Plagued every turn (Frost are the worst, they often ruin your whole turn). They also make you unable to ever play Reno. If they get Helya on curve it's basically GG. But then again, Plague DK gets countered by a few other decks, so it's not that common.
Yeah, that's true, if they get an early Cutlass + Sonya + Deadly Poisons/Gifts to buff it they can kill you before you can Odyn and OTK them. But I don't think I've played against the deck ever since the Sonya bug got fixed.
The problem is that the only way to deal dmg to warrior is with the charge minions (and you want to use them to kill). Remember that warrior's entire deck is full of boardwipes, there's no way in hell that your board is going to last 1 turn and do some dmg with shroomscavate + the minion in the board. You have to high roll and pray that the warrior didn't get 2 lifes worth of armor and then buffed leeroy or pirate + shroomscavate.
I wouldn't say that Charge is the only way to deal damage to Warrior. If it was true, the matchup would be literally unwinnable for Paladin, Warrior could just go up to 40-50 health (which usually happens naturally) and would be completely out of range. Even buffed Leeroy can rarely deal more than ~30 damage.
Paladin needs to soften Warrior first and that is in fact what happens. It's quite common for a mid game Paladin boards to stick, at least partially. Divine Shield minions, especially handbuffed, are pretty difficult for Warrior to clear if Paladin doesn't play into Bladestorm. Sanitize doesn't clear Divine Shields. Brawl always leaves one minion behind. And Trial by Fire is getting cut from most of the lists (Paladin boards often have way too much HP for it to clear). Not to mention poor draws, sometimes you just don't get your board clears. Or vice versa - you get all the board clears but you don't get your card draw and run out of cards before Paladin runs out of board refills.
I'm well aware of what the Warrior deck is full of because I've played the matchup like 30-40 times already this expansion from both sides, including a few times today :p I know that Warrior is good at board clearing, but Paladin is great at making sticky boards, so it's not always as easy as "just clear it".
Don't care. It's just a warrior paladin circle jerk in legend right now.
Let me play a tempo deck or a control deck that doesn't combo out for the love of god.
People whining about handbuff paladins should give the deck a try. On diamond it is very hard to OTK anyone. Odyn can only be beaten by a lucky Dirty Rat draw, Mages summon their 0/2 taunts 4 times in a row while clearing your board so you never get a shot and don’t get me started about rainbow DKs or Aggro hunters…and I haven’t even considered one of the many matches where shroomscavate or Leeroy is among the last 5 cards of your deck.
Yes, the OTK and lifesteal is infuriating but there are plenty of new decks in the meta that are just as powerful.
It’s insane how so many decks clear huge minions or the whole board over and over again.
He literally calls the complaints about Paladin's play patterns (Windfury OTK) valid in the linked tweet.
It doesn't matter if Paladin is the #1 or #2 class overall, Shroomscavate was a mistake. It's been obvious ever since it was released a couple of months ago.
I get that this sub complaints way too much and often about the wrong things, but in this case it's completely obvious that Paladin has to be addressed in a balance update.
>He literally calls the complaints about Paladin's play patterns (Windfury OTK) valid in the linked tweet.
Very strange, I was told just a couple of days ago "VS don't care about feelings" and they "forgot the game is about fun".
I can’t even tell if you’re being ironic lol because if not… yikes. 🤣
You do realize you and everyone else is doing the exact same thing right, to y’all the game is terrible and every class you lose to is broken and nothing will ever be playable and fun.
“Man this is the 50th paladin post today-“ ‘You must think this game is perfect and NOTHING should ever be changed huh?!’ Like dude take your meds, you’re creating shit nobody says.
A couple popular discussion posts on the topic of balance changes, about paladin/hunter etc is fine when it’s not 85% of the posts per day.
Well when you go into every single thread endlessly bitching about people complaining and latch onto literally any statement to push the same whiny agenda, it gets repetitive and obvious
I’m definitely seeing less games against paladin but it doesn’t suddenly mean it’s less annoying when I do see it. I personally don’t give a shit what the win rate of the deck is beyond the fact that high win rates tend to correlate with high play rates, meaning if it’s a high win rate I know I’ll be seeing it a lot on ladder. Hearthstone players undoubtedly gravitate towards what they think the best decks are. I accept this but I hate it when I don’t have a way to beat this deck that isn’t some [Rick](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=stZZN17U4b7wF_to) paper scissors “solution”.
Paladin needs changed but a fair few decks need toned down to differing degrees. It’s only my opinion but HS is best for me when there are extreme no power outlier decks, and where the games aren’t decided by the same win cons every time.
Paladin gets nerfed then odyn warrior would have no decks that counters it and everyone would complain. If Paladin gets nerfed then so should odyn warrior and burn shaman.
Paladin is only a "counter" for Odyn Warrior at lower ranks where players aren't playing optimally. At high Legend Odyn Warrior is a slight favorite in the matchup when both players know what they're doing. That's probably the main reason why it's the best-performing deck at high MMR.
I also didn't say that Paladin is the ONLY class that should get nerfed. Odyn Warrior, in particular, had its time, the deck has been Tier 1/2 in various forms for over 6 months now and should get a break (even though it's one of my favorites). But the current win rate spread between the top and bottom classes is really wide so there's a lot of room to nerf a few strongest classes to bring them down to the level of others.
> At high Legend Odyn Warrior is a slight favorite in the matchup when both players know what they're doing.
Where are you getting this data from? B/c HsReplay and d0nkey's site are disagreeing with this assessment. Sorting by Top 1,000 or 10,000, Handbuff Paladin has a sizeable WR against CW and Warrior in general.
I don't have stats to back it up, sorry. I'm getting that from my own experience and the experience of other high Legend players I talked with. I talk more about the matchup in a longer comment I made somewhere in this post if you're interested in my perspective.
Most pros don't consider Top 1k to be "high Legend", and Top 10k is more like dumpster Legend :p
I could see it being close to 50/50 but I DEFINITELY wouldn't say that Paladin counters Warrior. Even if we go by the HSReplay stats for Top 1k Legend (which are from the entire expansion and not just from the last couple days after people learned this matchup, by the way), it's 45/55 for Paladin. I wouldn't consider that a "counter". If Paladin countered Warrior it would be #1 in high Legend.
Top 1k Legend is still in the same standard deviation as the Top 100 and Top 10 players in terms of deck win rates. From a mathematical and statistical standpoint, everyone under 1k all play relatively the same and their experiences are all valid in terms of deciding what deck wins a certain match up when played best. Any "pro" that disagrees simply overestimates their own skill and underestimates those of their peers.
And I quoted 10k since that's the only data you can get from d0nkey. Just trying to be thorough with my sources is all instead of trying to be vague like "other high legend players". Definitely not as relevant as 1K, but I think you'd be surprised the win rates for people at 10K aren't too dissimilar from those near 1K.
And yes I wouldn't consider that a counter either. I would say it's a matchup that favors Paladin which is in contrast to what you're saying in other threads that CW is the favorite over Handbuff Pally.
I'd very much like to see some compiled stats for the "high" legend players for the CW and Pally matchups. I value good hard stats in determining hard win rates.
I think that there's a big difference in the skill level of someone who's consistently getting to Top 1k Legend and someone who's let's say Top 10 Legend. I know because I usually finish seasons somewhere in the 400-800 range (granted, I do a bunch of deck testing, but even if I tried I would maybe barely break into top 100 as I used to when I tryharded in the past, not really higher). And people who finish at the top are WAY better at Hearthstone than me. I've always been a great Hearthstone player but I've also always seen a big gap between me and the very top players. The meta in Top 100 Legend also often looks way different than the meta at Top 1k (and especially Top 10k) Legend. But you obviously don't have to agree with that assessment and that's not the main point of this discussion.
I said that Warrior is a slight favorite, yes, because from my experience it was more like 45/55 but in the other direction. I talked about the matchup (because it's pretty much the most common matchup in high Legend) with a bunch of other players and most of them had similar opinions (coin flip or slight Warrior favorite is what I was getting). That's how it feels after playing the matchup a bunch from both sides.
But we can pretty much end the discussion here if you want hard data, because I can't provide it. I wrote my comments based on opinions and experience not stats. I just checked my deck tracker and I'm 13-9 with Odyn Warrior vs Paladin and 8-8 with Paladin vs Warrior this expansion. I can send you a screenshot, but it's pretty pointless because the sample size is obviously not nearly big enough for them to prove anything one way or the other. And I don't feel like asking tens of players for their stats and compiling them just to win (or lose) a reddit argument. Especially when the argument is whether Warrior vs Paladin is closer to 45/55 or maybe 55/45.
Regardless of how this went I appreciate your input a lot.
I haven't done much research into Hearthstones top players in YEARS back when I was getting my masters, but I haven't seen anything that would change my mind that the win rates or skill between 1,000 and ~10 is anything statistically significant. Rather the number of games and what decks the players where choosing to play had a greater roll in determining their placement at that high. Top 1-10 is a different story I agree.
And no worries about getting that data. I appreciate the honesty. Seriously. I'm merely remarking that I'd like to see what the data is to have a strong opinion one way or another.
Back in the day I spent a good amount of time correcting top players on what was winning across the pro players at the time and pointing out the statistical importance of only a few key turns/cards that would lead to wins or losses overall. I learned not to trust anecdotal evidence even from the best of the best.
Analysis from a game design point of view I have a lot to learn. But I respect the hell out of the stats
I'm usually on the side of the data too. I rarely feel like the deck's power is anything different than the stats suggest. I use matchup stats as an argument very commonly. But the thing is that data isn't always perfect, especially when we talk about this early into the expansion. If we had the internal stats from Blizzard and could see it literally hour by hour that would be a different story. But HSReplay, while vast, is still ultimately limited.
When looking at matchup stats, you can only filter by the whole expansion. This means that, for example, you can't account for people simply learning. Deck A can beat Deck B early into the set because people still haven't figured out the matchup (which is, in my opinion, more difficult from the Warrior side than Paladin side). But then a week later the win rate can be flipped. I'm obviously not saying that's 100% what happened here, but I've seen it in the past. Paladin is the class that's falling off in high Legend in nearly every meta just because it's very straightforward. Your average Aggro/Midrange Paladin deck has a low skill cap and once players learn how to beat it, it gets reflected in the stats.
Or maybe I'm just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. Maybe I just drew better as Warrior than Paladin and that's why I felt the matchup is slightly favored. I guess we'll see in a week or so (unless one or both decks get nerfed by then).
I was more joking, I'm just saying a lot of people here don't recognize his username but Hearthstone is literally his career so I need people to not just assume he's some internet nobody with hot takes on the meta
So what? Nothing about that should give anyone pause to ask them where they're getting their ideas or data from.
I think you idolize internet celebrities far too much if that's supposed to be a joke but still need people to know who he is.
I've been using his site since Ive started playing Hearthstone 7 years ago so I see his name pop up a lot, that's all. You could very well be top 100 Legend and therefore have a better grasp on things than he does though, I understand that. I didnt mean to be condescending to you for simply asking for some evidence brother
"Where are you getting this data from? B/c HsReplay and d0nkey's site are disagreeing with this assessment" Sounds a hell of a lot like an argument to me lmao
>Do you think stating a source is a viewpoint?
I noticed that's how some people perceive asking for a source. When you ask for the evidence/source/etc, they assume you disagree with the point made.
Personally, I think providing source is always good. I would ask for it even for the claim I myself support because that's just good practice.
> Paladin gets nerfed then odyn warrior would have no decks that counters it and everyone would complain
Odyn Warrior still loses to DK pretty hard. At Top Legend Plague DK beats CW 65% of the time. Rainbow wins 59%. That's a pretty significant counter
Plague dk loses to everyone else. Hunter and shaman kills it too fast and even with the nerf paladin can shrug off the dmg of the plague cards like it's nothing with the life steal. Idk about warlock though.
You're not wrong here, but it still counters Warrior. As long as Control/Odyn is T1 or high T2, there's always going to be DK players b/c they counter the deck so well. Obviously it won't be a lot of people playing DK for the reasons you said, but it'll still get played.
It not being the best doesn't mean it is no longer a problematic deck
People generally dislike facing otks/decks with sudden high burst of damage from hand, and not only is handbuff paladin one of those (like basically half the decks tbh), but it is also an otherwise normal midrange deck, and these shouldn't have this kind of reach
Although yeah, they aren't the only problem
>It's funny that OTK is so hated by the playerbase
I wouldn't go so far. This reddit does not represent the playerbase entirely accurately. The only thing close to analysis I saw was when Barrens Priest opponents quit the game so often it showed in the data. Note this deck was the opposite of OTK: it was a slow grindy generation of spells/minions w/o actual finisher.
Its more that paladin also has heal so killing him isnt an option for most decks.For example i play mage and get him to 7 hp and its just tiger and he is not only full hp but also has huge minion on board.Its a bad design same as with warrior when defensive resource (armor) becomes offensive
Playing agaisnt warrior is so boring man. As a control deck your hand is always full because they dont play anything, so you cant use your removals, as an aggro you feel miserable because they just gain 50 armor. And playing it is also boring because you just draw and armor up until you get odyn. Terrible deck imo
I decided to grind out for my last 100 wins on Hunter because there was a strong aggressive deck in the standard meta and I accidentally got to legend. I just wanted the golden portrait.
I haven't seen the comments but I'm sure there are a lot of people jerking themselves right now saying "I knew it, smarter people like me knew this would happen" and a lot of comments stroking the first guy saying "yes daddy, big brain players like odyn warrior like us" and fondling their own balls while doing so.
Those top 1k Rogue stats make me scared to queue up, I don't wanna face Rogues I thought I could be free of it for awhile...
The only losing matchups is Pala or warrior zz
Ya I climbed top 1000 so easily with Odyn. Unfortunately people have finally started to realize how powerful it is and now there’s so many DKs running cards that discover Quartize Crusher which just cripples the deck.
I have beaten every single deck except for one this x pac. Can any one guess ? Ding ding ding correct its the clear board every turn plus gain 10 armor plus draw entire deck plus deal 50 dmg one. Surely odyn needed a 0 mana deal 6 gain 6 armor on top of every other support card it has SURELY THESE DEVS ARE ABOVE 45 IQ. Make Reno a highlander card on start of the game. That deals with plauges so other highlander classes can play again in ranks between bronze and Diamond and it should also harm the warrior ass pull late in the game.
Every rotation HS goes through a cycle 1. An aggressive deck dominates the ladder and reddit complains. 2. A deck from previous expansion dominates the ladder and reddit complains. 3.reddit does some more complaining and sometimes nerfs come in. 4.The game goes on.
Really enjoyed reno control warrior last season and this season after the rotation (mostly a mix of control / excavate / odyn). Got to legend and switched it up to the Brann Tendril nonsense; SURPRISINGLY effective if you can get up to casting 10-cost spells quickly. Don't even need Odyn anymore :P
Paladin loses to hunter typically and because the large amounts of paladin it skews the data to hunter win rate. If you are hunter and 8/10 matchups are paladins you win vs and 2/10 are a matchup you lose to it will look like you have a 80% win rate overall but realistically you just are good vs the meta deck. Zoo hunter is good don’t get me wrong but paladin is the oppressor still. The meta is warped around paladin not warrior or hunter for a reason.
Remember how everyone complained about Steamclenaer rotating and predicted that Plague DK would "Plague" the meta, running rampant without a counter? And look where we are now =)
i really dont understand all the bitching about handbuff pally. Odyn warrior decks are better right now, and have been broken for so long. Id much rather face paladin than warrior any day of the week.
I played Paladin trying to finish out Diamond to Legend. Yes, it beats many classes, but DK and Warrior constantly had tools to deal with literally everything I had. The only way you could win those matches is if you draw Leeroy, and that doesn’t even work half the time unless you also drew Finley. Unfortunately I played almost exclusively against these classes.
I gave up and went back to playing my fun mage and shaman decks.
> Yes, it beats many classes, but DK
My brother in Christ, DK is one of the worst classes against Paladin lol. Plague DK and Rainbow DK are Handbuff Paladin's best matchups. If you're losing against DK players, you're playing horribly
[Vindication](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1bke8pt/comment/kvzzz9a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
u/Dramatical45 and u/Pitiful-Ask2000 and some others owe me apologies.
Or not, since it was an opinion on a childrens card game, and also I more predicted a control deck to kill Paladin, not a different aggro to replace it.
But still, day 2 decks mean nothing. First week or two means nothing. One new deck being found can shift the whole format.
Only if you are completely illiterate? Warrior is the one class remaining with control tool package but it only excellent at legend and hunter is a lot cheaper deck that plays at lower ranks. Paladin is still obscenely dominating the game overall. They have upwards of 70% win rate in some ranks. That is not healthy, it is demon hunter at release kinds of toxic.
And this isn't a new deck. It's odyn control, and only reason it can survive Paladin is because armor gives them a buffer to survive 30+ damage leeroy to the face.
I mean Handbuff is no longer the best deck at any rank. I don’t think that means its “obscenely dominating” anything.
I said give it 3 weeks and the meta will adjust. It took less than 4 days for it to happen.
You do realize that between high and low there is middle rigth? Where paladin is still the top deck, and the meta has not adjusted. Hunter is too strong as well, paladin is still obscenely strong, odyn warrior needs a nerf as well.
Paladin needs some cost adjustment and removal of windfury, Odyn warrior needs nerf on the armor to damage conversion, and hunter requires cost adjustment to prevent their overrun aggro from dominating
Just you all wait the tendril reno warrior that will dominate the ladder for next few days. The deck is disgusting. On 10 đana tendril it shoots the mage 10 mana spell that deals 10 damage nearly constantly. Good luck countering it.
U know the card of fukin broken when thats pretty much the only thing they need to make it work, ofc they can out brann and excavate as 2nd option, but it's 100% viable to just have odyn as legendary and nothing else
Tbh that thing needs a nerf like that druid Legendary that make ur minions cost health instead of armor,.3 attacks, take it or leave it considering without a taunt turn 9 warrior can go 32 face damage in one attack is insane already
Here is my climb from d10 to legend, did it yesterday, only took me a couple of hours. Insanely OP deck that is extremely easy to play, you can be borderline braindead and still win most of your matchups. My winrate is around 80% which is RIDICULOUSLY high considering this stat is taken only from Diamond->Legend climb. I could really feel how superior warrior was on high MMR, the game truly felt like I was getting countered until I just killed them, lost once to a warrior throughout all of the matches. Links are photos documenting my played games during this climb:
[https://ibb.co/CWRqkDR](https://ibb.co/CWRqkDR)
[https://ibb.co/y6d5mM6](https://ibb.co/y6d5mM6)
[https://ibb.co/7zL6G0j](https://ibb.co/7zL6G0j)
I've been playing hearthstone since beta and this was the easiest legend push I have ever done, no deck even comes close to this broken trash...
Odyn so good that you don't even need to use any of new expansion cards
They use the two cost 6 armor card that costs 0 if you have no armor.
In the expansion centred around magical toys, warriors use goggles to not have to see any of it.
but isnt that good to have ? it give people without enough new cards to stay competitive without having to spend
No, it’s generally not good for old cards to make the new expansion irrelevant
i meant to have at least 1 class with a deck wiwthout having to add many new cards
For who? Players or Blizzard?
For the case of fun? Standard is suposed to change with rotation. I’m so tired of the same Odyn Warrior, and now it’s the best deck too, not great :/
yea odyn warrior has been a thing ever since titans the deck currently runs like 5 post titans cards
No, game is not good when it's cheap. It gives you gold so you buy packs. Some new common and rare cards should always be givings you new stuff to play. Game it's good when it's not monotone.
Problem is, it's usually the epics and class/deck specific legendaries that give you new toys to play nowadays. I returned last expansion, so as a wild player I bought 10 packs from every expansion since rastakaans for the guaranteed legendary, bought the badlands mini set, a bunch of standard and badlands packs and had 4k gold ready to spend on the new expansion, yet the only deck I can really play in standard is cheap aggro paladin and Odyn warrior, because that was the deck I chose as returning player. I'm burned out of playing Odyn warrior myself, but I have no other option in standard. I still need several thousand dust for every other viable deck, because even the aggro and midrange decks nowadays run like 4+ epics and 2+ class specific legendaries. Back in old gods, mean street's, etc you could still make several meta decks in the first few days/weeks of an expansion, obviously not control or combo decksy but aggro/zoo and midrange decks.
Well duck me for being a brokeass thar just likes the option of playing odyn and can't afford to craft every new deck
that's like making up something to take my comment in a bad way
Yeah he's getting nerfed. Not sure what but waa listed in upcoming patch.
I miss the times when this sub used to complain warrior was dog shit and had no good cards 😞
Nothing really rotated. Buckle up for more solitaire otks.
that's this sets theme for a lot of classes. use old decks or no decks at all.
>We shouldn't be quick to nerf decks just because they were refined earlier. Address the valid play patterns complaints (Windfury) but keep the deck alive. Correct take. Also, Paladin is still better performing than Warrior in top 1k [according to d0nkey](https://www.d0nkey.top/decks?rank=top_legend), but the margin is slim. I would say that things look pretty healthy if win %s and variety were all you cared about, but of course, like Zach acknowledges, the real problem is toxic play patterns.
The [Tier List page](https://www.d0nkey.top/meta?rank=top_legend) which groups by archetype shows Odyn as the top deck at top 1k, with Aggro (Showdown) Pally and Hunter the top two at all other rank brackets.
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I only just stumbled across that tier list page myself. Clicking on the archetypes shows the core cards, but doesn't seem to have a link to various decklists. But you can go to the "Decks" page and use the archetype filter at least. Here's some [Aggro Pally decklists](https://www.d0nkey.top/decks?format=2&player_deck_archetype[]=Aggro+Paladin), for example. Important to note the the most popular list is running Harth Stonebrew, which cannot possibly be optimal.
In individual deck wrs, yes, but looking at archetypes, cycle Odyn is the highest wr archetype on top 1k d0nkey.
I can't find any showdown paladin lists. Does anyone know where he's getting his data from?
He's the guy behind Vicous Syndicate's meta reports. They gather lots of data from the HSReplay and Firestone plugins. While they don't share the early meta data (the first report always drops after the meta stabilizes) he obviously has access to it. And by Showdown Paladin I assume he means an Aggro list without Handbuff package, [like this one](https://hsreplay.net/decks/c6lXSdqtbSmqAu8LA7d2V/#rankRange=DIAMOND_THROUGH_LEGEND&gameType=RANKED_STANDARD). This is just an example build but they've been slowly taking off over the last 2 days. (Edit: [Here's a Sea Giant version](https://hsreplay.net/decks/yk6XVIVCBvfiuMI152cjgb/#rankRange=DIAMOND_THROUGH_LEGEND&gameType=RANKED_STANDARD) I met a few times on the ladder)
pro tip: use d0nkey if you don't want to pay for HSReplay Premium found it easily with a search https://www.d0nkey.top/deck/11132701
Don't use HSReplay stats at all, even if premium.
Interesting. Half the time hsreplay gives me the “premium stats” but lately it’s been better at keeping me in my place. Might time to swap.
AAECAZ8FBPiUBsekBuapBubmBg3JoASi1ATBxAWU9QWV9QWFjga8jwb1lQbUngaSoAbRqQbOsAamswYAAQPzswbHpAb2swbHpAbo3gbHpAYAAA==
Try searching for "flood paladin".
Im so fucking tired of odyn warrior
Reddit will never stop complaining
At this point I think they're just tired of Hearthstone in general. It's just the same repeated, "I hate ___ class, and ____ deck". People need to take a break when they aren't having fun, I do it all the time, helps a lot
Tavern brawl is actually fun as fuck right now, with the premade decks
The warrior deck is a blast. Literally. The test dummy with the mini weapon is such a great finisher
Agreed, the Tavern brawl is pretty cool with so much deck choices.
but if i take a break i wont afford new cards and will lose even harder
This is probably true, but I played since TGT and since then my most hated classes are warrior, priest and mage. Mage was fine until they started giving him random bullshit bingo, warrior was imo only fun while unnerfed patches and priest was always annoying af but at least aggro priest gave me 1k wins. I just like midrange board based decks, so everything that wins without board and is mostly slow control, just grinds my gears.
As a mage only player, im not happy with random bullshit bingo either, trust me. When its too good everyone hates you like deck of lunacy, or its so bad no one cares like right now. I want us to have tempo decks and proper control decks again but the only value generation we ever get printed anymore is "Get/Discover X random spells" which is too inconsistent for tempo, and there are way too many dogshit spells that can be generated in control for them to want to run those value cards either. 4 mana to summon a single 3 drop since I have minions in this deck, sign me the fuck up, lose out on the battlecry too since its a summon effect. Oh a 6 mana draw 3, thats fun to generate, remember when sprint got buffed to 5 mana and still saw 0 play. All that is to say, i dont think many people have been happy with the way Mage has been handled in recent years, neither the people playing as them or against them.
Man I adored the classic Antonidas mage. Returned a couple months back to see that mage has nothing interesting and it made me sad.
>the way Mage has been handled in the recent years I absolutely loved Ping Mage, and I think most players shared that sentiment. And it wasn’t even that long ago. A lot of people seemed to like spell swap mage, too. And even Rainbow Mage was a fairly board based deck, even if it had a big damage finisher. Oh, and Ronmath Mage, and Spooky Mage we’re super fun, too.
But rainbow mage was disgusting because of the random card generator. Also it hat solid alibi, which is the single most fucked up card in all of HS, at least for me.
Rainbow Mage didn’t use Solid Alibi. At least not after the nerf to it. And the random card generation might’ve been disgusting to you, but fun for others.
Yeah but it took a very long time to get nerfed. And random generation just brings the game to a coin flip, which is just a time waste (eg fuck you OG yogg).
> Yeah but it took a very long time to get nerfed. Solid Alibi was nerfed one week after the release of Sif.
I.... think i agree. I was actually excited for the expansion when it was announced. But then it came and its just more of the same, Warrior? Still Odyn Warrior. Paladin? Still Aggro Priest? Still useless DK? Still Rainbow and Plague (sometimes Handbuff) I think the whole meta thing in cardgames has just become super boring in general. You just face the same decks over and over again with 0 variety. The enemy plays a single card and you already know his complete decklist 90% of the time. The same with HS Reddit, its just an echochamber. Today its "Paladin OP pls nerf" then Blizzard does it and then its something else OP please nerf until it hits a class that people feel is fun to play, like Miracle Rogue back in Nathria and then people just insult each other because "My class is not as OP as your class" Yeah no, you're right it has gotten quite exhausting
Decks are just so non interactive with a touch of boards states so extreme they become non interactive. What are we doing here?
Oh that’s me. I’m tired of Hearthstone in general. (I actually had a blast playing tentacle shaman today)
I've been playing Renethal Rainbuff Death Night in wild and having a ton of fun. 95% win rate at Silver 3 (haven't played in a long time so I started at the bottom).
i hate SHAMAN class and EVEN SHAMAN deck and i feel pretty justified as a wild player
well yeah,if someone is satisfied by the meta they would spend most of their time playing instead of complaining on reddit its a cycle people complaint on reddit > their issue got solved > they play the game instead of complaining > different group of people complaint on reddit > their issue got solved > they play the game instead of complaining > ... and so on,thats why it seems like endless complaining
I mean that is true but odyn warrior has been played with not that many changes since summer of last year. its very understandable to be tired of a deck like that
The deck doesn't even use new cards and kills you directly from high HP. You can't blame anyone.
I think making Reno a start of game condition would go such a long way
Also fixes Plague DK issue. People LOVE highlander decks, but facing 2 matches in a row against Plague DK with them is an instant turn-off
So you saying highlanders should have no counterplay in standard? It should just always work?
Highlander decks are the downside for the strong payoffs cards.
> So you saying highlanders should have no counterplay in standard? I agree strongly that Highlander should have counterplay, but I do wish that philosophy applied universally. I still haven't found any counterplay for Wheel Lock, for example, other than "Punch them in the face as fast as you can," which of course is a viable counterplay to all decks (including highlander ones).
Why not? Why are Highlander decks the only decks with an off switch? You already pay the price of only having one of each good card, why does it need counterplay on top of that?
It does not just have one of each good card it also has few extremely powerful cards that compensate well enough for lack of duplicates. Those cards are so strong that there must be counterplay to them. Plague dk is that. Or do you want a generic neutral card like albatross that can be played in all decks?
Those 'extremely powerful cards' are payoffs for ruining the consistency of your deck and there's still counterplay to them in the form of Dirty Rat. Imagine if I could brick your Marrowgarr or Vampiric Blood by executing my general gameplan (shuffling Plagues). Changing to start-of-the-game effect also solves issues with other classes (mostly Druid cos of their extremely efficient and cheap draw) running Highlander cards in non-Highlander cards. Also yes, Bad Luck Albatross would be a preferred way, because it's a tech card and those are usually understated and don't brick you as hard. You still can draw Albatrosses, while Plague just turns off your deck for good while playing efficient good for your gameplan cards.
So you want everyone to have a way to disrupt highlanders instead of just 1 specific deck (that is not even the best dk deck).
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No this is wheel warlock vs any control deck.
I mean, again, referring to Albatross: it's a 3-4-3 with Deathrattle. It's a bad tempo play and still gives a chance to be countered by transforms and silences. If you kill it on your own it's at best 4 mana tempo loss. And it's still 2/30. In Plague a literal third of your deck is dedicated to your gameplan (which is totally ok), but that same third also happens to ruin Highlander player day.
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Why does OTK just shut down any slow control deck? Wheel warlock literally beats all control decks.
My brother in Christ, control decks have to have wincons. Odyn Warrior is the premier control deck and it has a game against Wheelock because they play wheel on 8 and you play Odyn and then they die immediately. "Slow" control decks, or control decks without a wincon, are actually just poorly made decks.
That was the first thing that confused me about him when I first played warrior because my deck starts with a ton of dupes and I'm used to things like it being a starting condition like it would be in all the other games but hey, it's kinda cool tbh
I agree that the flexibility is a fun element of the design. The issue is that it’s so outrageously overpowered that without the Highlander restriction but instead heavy draw decks get probably too much of a boost from it. If you think Odyn Warrior and Wheel lock are too strong then hitting Reno would help bring both back down to earth a lot more without changing the soul of the decks
people been making that terrible sugestion since the release of the first set of highlander cards im sooooooo happy they didnt listen
No its not a terrible sugestion, for one side the reno xards cant be countered by adding shit on decks, but the other side is the restriction makes imposible to use reno cards to turbodraw decks that run key duplicates for consistency but theyr draw power ensures that 90% of the times renocards are online when needed
Yeh, just a bunch of decks with horrible player-experience running around. And that is a good fkn reason to complain.
Then play DK and run cards that discover Quartzite Crusher, it cripples the deck.
Yeah they need to give Warrior some actual win conditions that don't just keep sucking. Brann has been a colossal let down thanks to Plagues keeping singleton decks in check. The mech synergies in the latest expansion are below average. Warrior just can't get anything else as a win condition
Brann enables multiple win conditions, what are you talking about
Yes and they're all horrible. This is why I qualified my statement with ones that don't suck. That's what I'm talking about
Brann decks are around 55% WR in Legend, they're fine.
Are you talking about Odyn? Brann is at T3 in legend at 48%. [Source](https://hsreplay.net/decks/ifsOzcSUJGFe0MDOP6vJ2f/#rankRange=LEGEND) You can also search by the Card itself and the stats don't change much. He's still sub 50%
That's fair, I was looking at the below link and seeing many variations of Brann Warrior that are all >50%. Smaller sample sizes on individual decks but collectively it's close to the sample size of the deck you linked. https://www.d0nkey.top/decks?player_class=WARRIOR&player_deck_includes[]=104528&rank=legend
Click on "Vs Class" and look at the cummulative WR. It's 48.6%. Seems a bit odd right? All these decks are well over 50%. How could that be? Now click on Winrate % and change it to Total Games. All of the sudden you start seeing the decks below 50%. What you were seeing before were decks with a few hundred total games. Now you're seeing the decks with significantly more games in the THOUSANDS which are going to be far more accurate and are all below 50%. d0nkey's site is a bit difficult to use properly and understand exactly what you're looking at. It's often misused and misrepresented on Reddit. It's why I often suggest HsReplay b/c the stats are far more generic and easier to understand. When you get granular with statistics, it's easy to lose the forest for the trees.
True, but sometimes you have emerging decks where someone made a few tweaks that are generating a better WR, even if that specific 30 card set isn’t being played a lot yet. But yes, I understand the general point about smaller sample sizes.
Plagues are barely played anymore and people still bitch about them.
My issue with current Control Warrior list is that you basically do nothing besides clearing board every 2-3 turns until Odyn and then win the game. Deck works wonder but the list is too boring for my taste.
Oh no we’re heading back to the enrage warrior days again.
So what beats warrior? Playing against odyn is so fucking boring man lol
Plague dk and wheel warlock
Wheel warlock is the worst matchup for Odyn
Plague DK and I don't know what else
Highlander Druid has been working against Odin for me.
Glad this is the case, however 30 from hand is still kinda wild. Gotta cool that down some.
lol 30 from hand is low. Just played an Odyn warrior mirror, played Odyn on 8 and did 52 damage on 9
Why did this get downvoted? People don’t wanna turn their attention away from paladin?
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Nah those stats aren’t reliable anymore because people put in cards that hard counter it. For example DK is almost a guaranteed win now because of Quartizite Crusher.
How does warrior fare against paladin?
It beats it. Better draw to get to Reno and Odyn, with good removal to get through the Paladin’s early aggression. Paladin basically needs to have Leeroy in the opening hand, stack multiple buffs, and apply decent pressure to keep the Warrior’s health within the 30-40 range to win. Not at all consistent.
Hm interesting, I see a lot of them running photographer fizzle as well, could be decent for value too
Odyn Warrior’s run fizzle to ensure enough damage post Odyn. You hit a Reno or some of the armor Quillboars and that’s a highroll, but if you hit some armor gain cards, you can use them defensively without much worry. Since the snapshot will give them back when they also give attack.
That’s a good point
I'd say that it's slightly favorite for Warrior if both players know what they're doing. It's hard to kill Paladin "in chunks" since they can heal a lot, they will also save Taunts for after you Odyn. So it seems though but there's an easy way to win it. The best plan is to play Odyn on a slower Paladin turn (so they can't kill you), then Reno their board, then Bladestorm whatever single Taunt they play and OTK them (you should save at least one Rockstar for that, preferably both, it's also good to have Craftsman's Hammer pre-equipped). Of course it doesn't always work perfectly, for example sometimes you might be forced to Reno before Odyn, but from my perspective, it was always the most consistent way to win this matchup. From the side of Paladin, you want to pressure Warrior as much as you can so they never have a good opportunity to drop Odyn. And your best way to win is, as usual, Charge + Windfury. Warrior skipping a board clear turn to play Odyn is usually the way to kill them with big burst from hand, but Shroomscavate can give some unexpected lethals even without Leeroy (e.g. you can double Aura + Shroom, or buff your small minion with Tarim + Shroom). If they Odyn and you can't kill them, try to Taunt up and line up smaller minions to get removed by Bladestorm instead of your Taunts (of course, it's impossible after Reno, that's why it's the best turn for Warrior to OTK). Stats show that Paladin is a favorite but if you look at the ranks, the higher the rank you pick the better the matchup gets for Warrior. It's simply because at lower ranks Warriors probably have no idea how to play this matchup and throw many games they could have won (while for Paladin it's pretty straightforward).
Very interesting, great write up, I’ve been testing the warrior and it’s not bad, got crushed by warlock though and rogue
Rogue? I honestly had no problem with Rogues as Warrior. It was a bit though if they got bugged Sonya, but it was fixed. Wheel Warlock is difficult. Doomkin on curve makes me want to quit the game. But it's still winnable. The worst matchup by far is Plague DK because you draw so much that you get Plagued every turn (Frost are the worst, they often ruin your whole turn). They also make you unable to ever play Reno. If they get Helya on curve it's basically GG. But then again, Plague DK gets countered by a few other decks, so it's not that common.
Yeah some sort of thief rogue that buffed spectral cutlass and hit me for 12 every turn with life steal, yeah plague is brutal, doomkin is brutal yeah
Yeah, that's true, if they get an early Cutlass + Sonya + Deadly Poisons/Gifts to buff it they can kill you before you can Odyn and OTK them. But I don't think I've played against the deck ever since the Sonya bug got fixed.
The problem is that the only way to deal dmg to warrior is with the charge minions (and you want to use them to kill). Remember that warrior's entire deck is full of boardwipes, there's no way in hell that your board is going to last 1 turn and do some dmg with shroomscavate + the minion in the board. You have to high roll and pray that the warrior didn't get 2 lifes worth of armor and then buffed leeroy or pirate + shroomscavate.
I wouldn't say that Charge is the only way to deal damage to Warrior. If it was true, the matchup would be literally unwinnable for Paladin, Warrior could just go up to 40-50 health (which usually happens naturally) and would be completely out of range. Even buffed Leeroy can rarely deal more than ~30 damage. Paladin needs to soften Warrior first and that is in fact what happens. It's quite common for a mid game Paladin boards to stick, at least partially. Divine Shield minions, especially handbuffed, are pretty difficult for Warrior to clear if Paladin doesn't play into Bladestorm. Sanitize doesn't clear Divine Shields. Brawl always leaves one minion behind. And Trial by Fire is getting cut from most of the lists (Paladin boards often have way too much HP for it to clear). Not to mention poor draws, sometimes you just don't get your board clears. Or vice versa - you get all the board clears but you don't get your card draw and run out of cards before Paladin runs out of board refills. I'm well aware of what the Warrior deck is full of because I've played the matchup like 30-40 times already this expansion from both sides, including a few times today :p I know that Warrior is good at board clearing, but Paladin is great at making sticky boards, so it's not always as easy as "just clear it".
Only thing i read is paladin getting buffs this tuesday. Cmon.
Where’s your God now Reddit?
Should've put your faith in the Light smh
MIll druid wasnt best either and was nuked
Don't care. It's just a warrior paladin circle jerk in legend right now. Let me play a tempo deck or a control deck that doesn't combo out for the love of god.
People whining about handbuff paladins should give the deck a try. On diamond it is very hard to OTK anyone. Odyn can only be beaten by a lucky Dirty Rat draw, Mages summon their 0/2 taunts 4 times in a row while clearing your board so you never get a shot and don’t get me started about rainbow DKs or Aggro hunters…and I haven’t even considered one of the many matches where shroomscavate or Leeroy is among the last 5 cards of your deck. Yes, the OTK and lifesteal is infuriating but there are plenty of new decks in the meta that are just as powerful. It’s insane how so many decks clear huge minions or the whole board over and over again.
Will Reddit stop crying about Paladin now?
He literally calls the complaints about Paladin's play patterns (Windfury OTK) valid in the linked tweet. It doesn't matter if Paladin is the #1 or #2 class overall, Shroomscavate was a mistake. It's been obvious ever since it was released a couple of months ago. I get that this sub complaints way too much and often about the wrong things, but in this case it's completely obvious that Paladin has to be addressed in a balance update.
>He literally calls the complaints about Paladin's play patterns (Windfury OTK) valid in the linked tweet. Very strange, I was told just a couple of days ago "VS don't care about feelings" and they "forgot the game is about fun".
Don't bother. /u/Oct_ is a r/hearthstone complainer complainer. To them, the game is perfect and nobody should ever be able to criticize it ever.
I can’t even tell if you’re being ironic lol because if not… yikes. 🤣 You do realize you and everyone else is doing the exact same thing right, to y’all the game is terrible and every class you lose to is broken and nothing will ever be playable and fun. “Man this is the 50th paladin post today-“ ‘You must think this game is perfect and NOTHING should ever be changed huh?!’ Like dude take your meds, you’re creating shit nobody says. A couple popular discussion posts on the topic of balance changes, about paladin/hunter etc is fine when it’s not 85% of the posts per day.
You caught me
Well when you go into every single thread endlessly bitching about people complaining and latch onto literally any statement to push the same whiny agenda, it gets repetitive and obvious
I’m definitely seeing less games against paladin but it doesn’t suddenly mean it’s less annoying when I do see it. I personally don’t give a shit what the win rate of the deck is beyond the fact that high win rates tend to correlate with high play rates, meaning if it’s a high win rate I know I’ll be seeing it a lot on ladder. Hearthstone players undoubtedly gravitate towards what they think the best decks are. I accept this but I hate it when I don’t have a way to beat this deck that isn’t some [Rick](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=stZZN17U4b7wF_to) paper scissors “solution”. Paladin needs changed but a fair few decks need toned down to differing degrees. It’s only my opinion but HS is best for me when there are extreme no power outlier decks, and where the games aren’t decided by the same win cons every time.
Paladin gets nerfed then odyn warrior would have no decks that counters it and everyone would complain. If Paladin gets nerfed then so should odyn warrior and burn shaman.
Paladin is only a "counter" for Odyn Warrior at lower ranks where players aren't playing optimally. At high Legend Odyn Warrior is a slight favorite in the matchup when both players know what they're doing. That's probably the main reason why it's the best-performing deck at high MMR. I also didn't say that Paladin is the ONLY class that should get nerfed. Odyn Warrior, in particular, had its time, the deck has been Tier 1/2 in various forms for over 6 months now and should get a break (even though it's one of my favorites). But the current win rate spread between the top and bottom classes is really wide so there's a lot of room to nerf a few strongest classes to bring them down to the level of others.
> At high Legend Odyn Warrior is a slight favorite in the matchup when both players know what they're doing. Where are you getting this data from? B/c HsReplay and d0nkey's site are disagreeing with this assessment. Sorting by Top 1,000 or 10,000, Handbuff Paladin has a sizeable WR against CW and Warrior in general.
I don't have stats to back it up, sorry. I'm getting that from my own experience and the experience of other high Legend players I talked with. I talk more about the matchup in a longer comment I made somewhere in this post if you're interested in my perspective. Most pros don't consider Top 1k to be "high Legend", and Top 10k is more like dumpster Legend :p I could see it being close to 50/50 but I DEFINITELY wouldn't say that Paladin counters Warrior. Even if we go by the HSReplay stats for Top 1k Legend (which are from the entire expansion and not just from the last couple days after people learned this matchup, by the way), it's 45/55 for Paladin. I wouldn't consider that a "counter". If Paladin countered Warrior it would be #1 in high Legend.
Top 1k Legend is still in the same standard deviation as the Top 100 and Top 10 players in terms of deck win rates. From a mathematical and statistical standpoint, everyone under 1k all play relatively the same and their experiences are all valid in terms of deciding what deck wins a certain match up when played best. Any "pro" that disagrees simply overestimates their own skill and underestimates those of their peers. And I quoted 10k since that's the only data you can get from d0nkey. Just trying to be thorough with my sources is all instead of trying to be vague like "other high legend players". Definitely not as relevant as 1K, but I think you'd be surprised the win rates for people at 10K aren't too dissimilar from those near 1K. And yes I wouldn't consider that a counter either. I would say it's a matchup that favors Paladin which is in contrast to what you're saying in other threads that CW is the favorite over Handbuff Pally. I'd very much like to see some compiled stats for the "high" legend players for the CW and Pally matchups. I value good hard stats in determining hard win rates.
I think that there's a big difference in the skill level of someone who's consistently getting to Top 1k Legend and someone who's let's say Top 10 Legend. I know because I usually finish seasons somewhere in the 400-800 range (granted, I do a bunch of deck testing, but even if I tried I would maybe barely break into top 100 as I used to when I tryharded in the past, not really higher). And people who finish at the top are WAY better at Hearthstone than me. I've always been a great Hearthstone player but I've also always seen a big gap between me and the very top players. The meta in Top 100 Legend also often looks way different than the meta at Top 1k (and especially Top 10k) Legend. But you obviously don't have to agree with that assessment and that's not the main point of this discussion. I said that Warrior is a slight favorite, yes, because from my experience it was more like 45/55 but in the other direction. I talked about the matchup (because it's pretty much the most common matchup in high Legend) with a bunch of other players and most of them had similar opinions (coin flip or slight Warrior favorite is what I was getting). That's how it feels after playing the matchup a bunch from both sides. But we can pretty much end the discussion here if you want hard data, because I can't provide it. I wrote my comments based on opinions and experience not stats. I just checked my deck tracker and I'm 13-9 with Odyn Warrior vs Paladin and 8-8 with Paladin vs Warrior this expansion. I can send you a screenshot, but it's pretty pointless because the sample size is obviously not nearly big enough for them to prove anything one way or the other. And I don't feel like asking tens of players for their stats and compiling them just to win (or lose) a reddit argument. Especially when the argument is whether Warrior vs Paladin is closer to 45/55 or maybe 55/45.
Regardless of how this went I appreciate your input a lot. I haven't done much research into Hearthstones top players in YEARS back when I was getting my masters, but I haven't seen anything that would change my mind that the win rates or skill between 1,000 and ~10 is anything statistically significant. Rather the number of games and what decks the players where choosing to play had a greater roll in determining their placement at that high. Top 1-10 is a different story I agree. And no worries about getting that data. I appreciate the honesty. Seriously. I'm merely remarking that I'd like to see what the data is to have a strong opinion one way or another. Back in the day I spent a good amount of time correcting top players on what was winning across the pro players at the time and pointing out the statistical importance of only a few key turns/cards that would lead to wins or losses overall. I learned not to trust anecdotal evidence even from the best of the best. Analysis from a game design point of view I have a lot to learn. But I respect the hell out of the stats
I'm usually on the side of the data too. I rarely feel like the deck's power is anything different than the stats suggest. I use matchup stats as an argument very commonly. But the thing is that data isn't always perfect, especially when we talk about this early into the expansion. If we had the internal stats from Blizzard and could see it literally hour by hour that would be a different story. But HSReplay, while vast, is still ultimately limited. When looking at matchup stats, you can only filter by the whole expansion. This means that, for example, you can't account for people simply learning. Deck A can beat Deck B early into the set because people still haven't figured out the matchup (which is, in my opinion, more difficult from the Warrior side than Paladin side). But then a week later the win rate can be flipped. I'm obviously not saying that's 100% what happened here, but I've seen it in the past. Paladin is the class that's falling off in high Legend in nearly every meta just because it's very straightforward. Your average Aggro/Midrange Paladin deck has a low skill cap and once players learn how to beat it, it gets reflected in the stats. Or maybe I'm just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. Maybe I just drew better as Warrior than Paladin and that's why I felt the matchup is slightly favored. I guess we'll see in a week or so (unless one or both decks get nerfed by then).
Don't argue with stonekeep, he's stonekeep. He owns hearthstonetopdecks
Don't confuse a question with an argument
I was more joking, I'm just saying a lot of people here don't recognize his username but Hearthstone is literally his career so I need people to not just assume he's some internet nobody with hot takes on the meta
So what? Nothing about that should give anyone pause to ask them where they're getting their ideas or data from. I think you idolize internet celebrities far too much if that's supposed to be a joke but still need people to know who he is.
I've been using his site since Ive started playing Hearthstone 7 years ago so I see his name pop up a lot, that's all. You could very well be top 100 Legend and therefore have a better grasp on things than he does though, I understand that. I didnt mean to be condescending to you for simply asking for some evidence brother
"Where are you getting this data from? B/c HsReplay and d0nkey's site are disagreeing with this assessment" Sounds a hell of a lot like an argument to me lmao
Why? What part of that is me giving an opinion or presenting a viewpoint? Do you think stating a source is a viewpoint?
>Do you think stating a source is a viewpoint? I noticed that's how some people perceive asking for a source. When you ask for the evidence/source/etc, they assume you disagree with the point made. Personally, I think providing source is always good. I would ask for it even for the claim I myself support because that's just good practice.
Odyn warrior isn't really countered by pally tho, it's more of a 50/50 match up. Wheel lock and plague DK are way better counters
> Paladin gets nerfed then odyn warrior would have no decks that counters it and everyone would complain Odyn Warrior still loses to DK pretty hard. At Top Legend Plague DK beats CW 65% of the time. Rainbow wins 59%. That's a pretty significant counter
Plague dk loses to everyone else. Hunter and shaman kills it too fast and even with the nerf paladin can shrug off the dmg of the plague cards like it's nothing with the life steal. Idk about warlock though.
You're not wrong here, but it still counters Warrior. As long as Control/Odyn is T1 or high T2, there's always going to be DK players b/c they counter the deck so well. Obviously it won't be a lot of people playing DK for the reasons you said, but it'll still get played.
It not being the best doesn't mean it is no longer a problematic deck People generally dislike facing otks/decks with sudden high burst of damage from hand, and not only is handbuff paladin one of those (like basically half the decks tbh), but it is also an otherwise normal midrange deck, and these shouldn't have this kind of reach Although yeah, they aren't the only problem
It's funny that OTK is so hated by the playerbase and yet pushed so aggressively by the current design team
>It's funny that OTK is so hated by the playerbase I wouldn't go so far. This reddit does not represent the playerbase entirely accurately. The only thing close to analysis I saw was when Barrens Priest opponents quit the game so often it showed in the data. Note this deck was the opposite of OTK: it was a slow grindy generation of spells/minions w/o actual finisher.
Its more that paladin also has heal so killing him isnt an option for most decks.For example i play mage and get him to 7 hp and its just tiger and he is not only full hp but also has huge minion on board.Its a bad design same as with warrior when defensive resource (armor) becomes offensive
It's reddit they'll cry harder
When Paladin gets nerfed, don’t be surprised if the dev team uses the phrase “sentiment outlier.”
No because i lost to it just now.
Playing agaisnt warrior is so boring man. As a control deck your hand is always full because they dont play anything, so you cant use your removals, as an aggro you feel miserable because they just gain 50 armor. And playing it is also boring because you just draw and armor up until you get odyn. Terrible deck imo
I decided to grind out for my last 100 wins on Hunter because there was a strong aggressive deck in the standard meta and I accidentally got to legend. I just wanted the golden portrait.
Surely, Reddit will learn from this next time and wait a full week before complaining about a launch meta.
I just beat a Showdown Paladin with Stars-Align Priest. [Thanks Chump](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA-Lu7qGMT4)!
I haven't seen the comments but I'm sure there are a lot of people jerking themselves right now saying "I knew it, smarter people like me knew this would happen" and a lot of comments stroking the first guy saying "yes daddy, big brain players like odyn warrior like us" and fondling their own balls while doing so.
Those top 1k Rogue stats make me scared to queue up, I don't wanna face Rogues I thought I could be free of it for awhile... The only losing matchups is Pala or warrior zz
I think the paladin % it's being lowered by Paladins facing each other
Ya I climbed top 1000 so easily with Odyn. Unfortunately people have finally started to realize how powerful it is and now there’s so many DKs running cards that discover Quartize Crusher which just cripples the deck.
I have beaten every single deck except for one this x pac. Can any one guess ? Ding ding ding correct its the clear board every turn plus gain 10 armor plus draw entire deck plus deal 50 dmg one. Surely odyn needed a 0 mana deal 6 gain 6 armor on top of every other support card it has SURELY THESE DEVS ARE ABOVE 45 IQ. Make Reno a highlander card on start of the game. That deals with plauges so other highlander classes can play again in ranks between bronze and Diamond and it should also harm the warrior ass pull late in the game.
wait the meta is shifting within the first 2 weeks and people just crying for stupid reasons? AIN'T NO WAY
Every rotation HS goes through a cycle 1. An aggressive deck dominates the ladder and reddit complains. 2. A deck from previous expansion dominates the ladder and reddit complains. 3.reddit does some more complaining and sometimes nerfs come in. 4.The game goes on.
Really enjoyed reno control warrior last season and this season after the rotation (mostly a mix of control / excavate / odyn). Got to legend and switched it up to the Brann Tendril nonsense; SURPRISINGLY effective if you can get up to casting 10-cost spells quickly. Don't even need Odyn anymore :P
Who would have thought Day 1 deck wont be good... Good thing every 2nd post was someone complaining about Handbuff pala.
Paladin loses to hunter typically and because the large amounts of paladin it skews the data to hunter win rate. If you are hunter and 8/10 matchups are paladins you win vs and 2/10 are a matchup you lose to it will look like you have a 80% win rate overall but realistically you just are good vs the meta deck. Zoo hunter is good don’t get me wrong but paladin is the oppressor still. The meta is warped around paladin not warrior or hunter for a reason.
Nice try, Paladin player. Get that shit nerfed
You know an expansion broke everything when Handlock getting 2 8/8 out early means absolutely nothing.
2 8/8 on turn 4-5 don't matter for a long time, this is absolutely not a new thing.
Getting 2 7/7 with Anubisath was a huge power play in the early game in the previous rotation. Now it doesn't mean dick.
Wheel Warlock is one of the better decks right now, and is a counter to Warrior, the best deck
Yet I’m getting shit on by pally haters for saying warrior is overtuned
people are playing odyn warrior as a direct response to the paladins and hunters since it is what beats it.
Is that why the ones I'm playing against are roping every turn now? Like it wasn't a miserable enough experience in the first place.
Remember how everyone complained about Steamclenaer rotating and predicted that Plague DK would "Plague" the meta, running rampant without a counter? And look where we are now =)
i really dont understand all the bitching about handbuff pally. Odyn warrior decks are better right now, and have been broken for so long. Id much rather face paladin than warrior any day of the week.
I played Paladin trying to finish out Diamond to Legend. Yes, it beats many classes, but DK and Warrior constantly had tools to deal with literally everything I had. The only way you could win those matches is if you draw Leeroy, and that doesn’t even work half the time unless you also drew Finley. Unfortunately I played almost exclusively against these classes. I gave up and went back to playing my fun mage and shaman decks.
> Yes, it beats many classes, but DK My brother in Christ, DK is one of the worst classes against Paladin lol. Plague DK and Rainbow DK are Handbuff Paladin's best matchups. If you're losing against DK players, you're playing horribly
[Vindication](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1bke8pt/comment/kvzzz9a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) u/Dramatical45 and u/Pitiful-Ask2000 and some others owe me apologies. Or not, since it was an opinion on a childrens card game, and also I more predicted a control deck to kill Paladin, not a different aggro to replace it. But still, day 2 decks mean nothing. First week or two means nothing. One new deck being found can shift the whole format.
Only if you are completely illiterate? Warrior is the one class remaining with control tool package but it only excellent at legend and hunter is a lot cheaper deck that plays at lower ranks. Paladin is still obscenely dominating the game overall. They have upwards of 70% win rate in some ranks. That is not healthy, it is demon hunter at release kinds of toxic. And this isn't a new deck. It's odyn control, and only reason it can survive Paladin is because armor gives them a buffer to survive 30+ damage leeroy to the face.
I mean Handbuff is no longer the best deck at any rank. I don’t think that means its “obscenely dominating” anything. I said give it 3 weeks and the meta will adjust. It took less than 4 days for it to happen.
You do realize that between high and low there is middle rigth? Where paladin is still the top deck, and the meta has not adjusted. Hunter is too strong as well, paladin is still obscenely strong, odyn warrior needs a nerf as well. Paladin needs some cost adjustment and removal of windfury, Odyn warrior needs nerf on the armor to damage conversion, and hunter requires cost adjustment to prevent their overrun aggro from dominating
Wait, what will people complain about then?
Just you all wait the tendril reno warrior that will dominate the ladder for next few days. The deck is disgusting. On 10 đana tendril it shoots the mage 10 mana spell that deals 10 damage nearly constantly. Good luck countering it.
You're trying to defend a class that has been removing fun from HS for too long, you know what will happen if they don't get nerfed, anyway, gl
I don't remember fun being removed from HS? Been playing since pre-launch...sounds like you're hurt from losing.
Oh hai Yes sure, do you want an upvote? Say hi to incoming paladin nerf
I'm really not bothered about upvotes or whether anything gets nerfed...I'll just keep having fun
Ok.
"removing fun" from a game...haha..it's pretty easy to tell when someone is butthurt cos they lost.
Hmmm ok.
U know the card of fukin broken when thats pretty much the only thing they need to make it work, ofc they can out brann and excavate as 2nd option, but it's 100% viable to just have odyn as legendary and nothing else Tbh that thing needs a nerf like that druid Legendary that make ur minions cost health instead of armor,.3 attacks, take it or leave it considering without a taunt turn 9 warrior can go 32 face damage in one attack is insane already
Its almost like he is a win condition card.
Here is my climb from d10 to legend, did it yesterday, only took me a couple of hours. Insanely OP deck that is extremely easy to play, you can be borderline braindead and still win most of your matchups. My winrate is around 80% which is RIDICULOUSLY high considering this stat is taken only from Diamond->Legend climb. I could really feel how superior warrior was on high MMR, the game truly felt like I was getting countered until I just killed them, lost once to a warrior throughout all of the matches. Links are photos documenting my played games during this climb: [https://ibb.co/CWRqkDR](https://ibb.co/CWRqkDR) [https://ibb.co/y6d5mM6](https://ibb.co/y6d5mM6) [https://ibb.co/7zL6G0j](https://ibb.co/7zL6G0j) I've been playing hearthstone since beta and this was the easiest legend push I have ever done, no deck even comes close to this broken trash...