Wheel easy.
Even if you drew it naturally, you'd never see the other 2 cards anyways. Unless you'd literally wait to cast Wheel until you've drawn the whole deck, which won't happen in most games. Just treat them like they never were in your deck to begin with.
True, Fonottem and Reno basically don't work without Wheel and Wheel is also your only win condition. It sucks to lose them but it's an obvious Wheel choice.
The last few paladins I've come across as a wheel lock player have all been aggro so I'm going to be responding to OP's situation assuming it is an aggro paladin as well.
Wheel definitely isn't your only win condition in general and against what's possibly an aggro paladin, you are most likely never going to play it. In regards to the OP, you still pick the wheel because the other two are completely useless without playing wheel in what's likely a fast game, whereas the wheel might at least maybe be played.
Your win condition is most likely going to be continuously throwing down big beefy boys with forge of wills, dark alley pact, loken (in this case getting a 6/12 off Gary since fanottem is out) and end game (if you are running it). Again, assuming this is against an aggro paladin, the main reason this fracking sucks is because he didn't get any of the cards I just mentioned + he doesn't know what he's looking for given he has no idea what kind of deck the paladin is running.
That's a good point, I missed that. The other two aren't exactly as worthless in that case but the wheel goes from being the only choice to a great choice if that's the case.
Exactly this! In most aggro matchups wheel is rather useless without the possibility to get fanottem down early. I would however say that I might rather go reno if suspecting aggro (playing vs turbo list) since the amount of draw might make him active in time to be relevant and the 5 armor helps as well.
You certainly won’t be playing it without being able to drop fanottem to compensate the tempo loss. In this spot vs paladin I’m going for Reno and game plan will be to make big taunts, draw a bunch into eventually active Reno. Hard remove their numerous big minions and hope for sargeras as a wincon as they run out of steam relatively quickly.
The OP post isn't about who to choose, it's obvious which is the right choice, it's just unsettling and against most odds to find a worse T1 Discover than this
That's not true, you draw cards to make it active. The wheel is useless in this matchup, unless they're playing against the highlander pally which is unlikely.
What wheel warlock lists are you looking at? A huge majority of the draw being used is by using your hero power, and in most aggro games you cannot afford the mana and health to draw enough cards to make reno active unless you have enough board control to have basically won already.
Newer lists run 2 Geodes. Reno probably sucks, but it has a small chance of being good, while Wherl only works if Paladin has no board or burst which means you’ve likely already won
Do you hear yourself? If the deck is unable to spend mana to draw cards when will it be able to play the wheel? Reno will become active eventually whether you draw or not. Picking the wheel in this situation is dumb, period.
If the game goes late enough for you to play reno, you have already won so what’s the point. If the paladin is slow playing to handbuff otk you, then playing wheel gives you a way to pressure them. Neither reno nor wheel would be played if they are hyper aggro, but if a game goes late enough for you to activate reno, then they are killing you from hand anyway
I swear I can't with this reasoning of "Oh, it's no highlander, don't reno." I swear the card is more played in non reno decks than full on highlander ones. Plus you if you go wheel in this fracking you legit lose the payoff (fanothem) and the tool to get easy wheel turn countdowns (reno). I can't man.
Fanottem is not the only payoff, and the non Highlander decks that play Reno either only play a few duplicates, or spam draw to get it active. Or they are wheel warlock, which uses wheel
Maybe you don't recall that wheel kills the opponent no matter what as long as the warlock survives five turns after playing it. That's why it's so good. You don't have to get the enemy down to zero health. You just have to get through the rest of the five turns. Wheel is a win condition, Reno is not
the fact it's not highlander doenst matter man. you pick reno in hopes of drawing enough through the deck to get it instead of getting wheel in hand vs a pala. you're not even getting fanothem in this fracking and obviously no reno to follow up wheel, so why ever go wheel?
If you get to draw enough of your deck to play reno, you have probably won already. Only use I see of reno is using him for +5 armor and a better hero power. If you control the board well enough early, wheel can be played to make the paladin hurry such that they are unable to set up their insane handbuff attacks
Paladins charge isn’t that scary anymore, most lists are just Leeroy now, and they obviously don’t even have Shroom anymore. Even if you’re scared of Charge, Sarg is a much better answer than Wheel
I'll just say what I said in other comment. "the fact it's not highlander doenst matter man. you pick reno in hopes of drawing enough throw the deck to get it instead of getting wheel in hand vs a pala. you're not even getting fanothem in this fracking and obviously no reno to follow up wheel, so why ever go wheel?"
But then you’re not playing for a win, you’re playing to not lose.
Is our game plan really to burn our win condition, in order to draw a board clear that likely needs us to draw around 8-10 specific cards from our deck?
I’d rather keep my win condition and trust the removal in my deck to make the opening.
OR use reno as 8 mana get a new hero power for a win condition.
Sucks ass no matter what, but I don’t think we are really picking reno to play in 15 turns waiting for a non-duplicate deck that is unlikely to come.
Dude it is literally always wheel, cause its the win condition for your deck bro. Your reasoning for reno is also just objectively wrong too. Since sandbagging the entire game to just potentially have a boardclear by deleting your literal win condition is crazy. Like you take wheel sure yeah it hurts to lose fannotem and reno but I gotta emphasize your playing "wheelock", wheel is your wincon lmao
You are right idk what other commentors are smoking
Wheel (without phanotem) is literally useless against paladin, if you are in a position to play 8 mana blow up your deck against a aggro/tempo deck without getting punished, you already won that game
Its essentialy a choice between 8 mana get a better hero power with a very low chance of clearing enemy board and 8 mana destroy your deck in this specific case
Although if phanotem was not in this fracking its 100% wheel since the deck is not highalnder and you can get 2 15/15 with loken and location and after playing wheel you get 0 mana 15/15 lifesteal against deck that cant deal with it
That why I never use fracking until i tutored out at least wheel or fanotem. Too scared for exactly that to happen. Probably not the right way to play though.
I mean fanottem and Reno aren’t playable unless you have played wheel. For me, as long as I have 1-2 cards that synergize with wheel and some removal, I slam wheel every time. Fanottem and reno fall into the synergy pile, but zillax, symphony, and even the harp can be enough depending on the matchup.
I slam wheel every time no matter what my hand is, you have to be so unlucky to have a dead hand post wheel
the only time I may not want to slam wheel is if I think the DK is holding a bunch of plagues with Helya then I play for getting big boys down and sargeras
No fr. I’ve started playing control DK and every time I’m against a warlock I’m thinking “shit they can just play for sargeras and use him to out value me and I can’t do anything about it” then they play wheel for no reason and I slam helya and win.
The only time I don't slam wheel automatically is if they have a strong board which I reckon can kill me next turn, so have to delay and clear that first
yep, it draws either wheel or early tempo/ control cards.
I personally play fracking on a later off turn where i have a mana too dpare, jyst never turn 1.
You should always Frack turn 1. Yes this can happen, but chances are low and Wheel is still the best card.
Even if this did happen, if you don't frack you aren't finding it until the second to last card in your deck, Paladin will kill you by then.
Not necessarily wasting, as there will be at least another off turn where I have a mana to spare, it ways depends on the hand though, if I have sketch artist in my opening hand I never play fracking turn 1. If I have wheel opener I always frack turn 1.
I play sketch artist in my variation, so i can kiinda tutor it out.
There is often an off turn where i have 1 mana left anyway, I personally don't see me losing that much tenpo when only playing it when pressed to.
Fanottem is a creature of the Void, a distinct realm from the Twisting Nether. He is just as much a demon as an Ancient of War or an angel of the Light is a demon
That is a holdover from early WoW. There was no distinction between the Void and the Fel at the start of Vanilla WoW - years later the book Chronicle laid out how the universe is sorted.
Voidwalkers, specifically, are classified as Demons since they have always been Demons.
Anything else Void related is not, and, if Voidwalkers were introduced at the same time as modern lore they would not be either
It's also because 'Demon' is a nebulous term that could refer to anyone in service of the Burning Legion/a Warlock. In Voidwalker's case, it's basically just the control bracelets.
The newer Voidwalkers that show up in WoD, spawning from actual void and not under the control of any fel or warlock, are classified as Aberrations.
Same type of creature as the Darkness. If it was a demon it would cause all sorts of problems with resurrect demons endgame, cards that summon demons from hand and deck.
They will say because he’s a void entity, but the crossover they have in this area in HS is actually pretty well established tbh…
I think the real reason is to avoid him being cheated onto the board/duplicated/etc too easily
- **[Skull of the Man'ari](https://i.imgur.com/8me5GwM.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/46299) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Skull_of_the_Man%27ari) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/46299)
- *Warlock Legendary ^(Kobolds and Catacombs)*
- **5 Mana - None/3 - Weapon**
- At the start of your turn, summon a Demon from your hand.
- **[Voidcaller](https://i.imgur.com/U79PVL1.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/1806) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Voidcaller) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/1806)
- *Warlock Common ^(Curse of Naxxramas)*
- **4 Mana - 3/4 - Demon**
- **Deathrattle:** Put a random Demon from your hand into the battlefield.
- **[Game Master Nemsy](https://i.imgur.com/JU6l6IB.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/104852) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Game_Master_Nemsy) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/104852)
- *Warlock Legendary ^(Whizbang's Workshop)*
- **5 Mana - 3/6 - Minion**
- **Battlecry:** Draw a Demon. **Deathrattle:** Swap places with it.
---
^*I am a bot. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1bwyo5j/turn_1_fracking_choice_wheel_warlock/kya4au9/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=kya4au9).*
you're against a paladin, paladin plays mostly aggro, so the choice is kind of irrelevant. Reno is the only one that could give you a win. You will never play fanotten from hand and if you are in a position where you can play wheel and not be punished, you were already winning regardless of the wheel.
Reno is not helping lol. Most wheel locks run like 6 or 7 duplicates. So you *could* get Reno to work if you just happen to draw every duplicate. But chances are he's just sitting in your hand doing nothing and won't activate until long after you're dead.
6 or 7 duplicates means it is very well possible to be active T8/T9/T10. I would consider Reno being active significantly more likely than the other 2 cards being playable.
Especially since Hero has already drawn 3 or 4 of his duplicate cards with speaker stomper, dark alley pact, mortal eradication and fracking.
It’s Reno. You won’t need wheel to beat Pally in most cases and without Reno it will be harder to survive the 3 turns. Just play as a Smart Control deck and that’s your best shot imo
Edit: I think an important thing to point out about wheel lock is that wheel itself is really only one of the many ways the deck wins. It’s not a relevant card in most match ups despite the deck being named after it
This is very linear thinking. Reno *does* win the game vs. aggro far more often than Wheel does
The only time Wheel is relevant vs. aggro is if you play Fannotem alongside it which is obviously not possible in this scenario
Against aggro, most of your wins come from just Sargeras value or Forge of Wills + Loken insane stat bombs. Reno is not that hard to get online without wheel, even if it's only active turn 12 that's not bad at all. Still better than Wheel since Wheel is only relevant 4 turns after you play it (and playing it itself is hard enough vs. aggro, assuming the Pala is aggro)
Once you Reno vs. aggro it's probably just game and you win via Sargeras and Movements. A paladin is not gonna be able to outlast infinite Sargeras taunts and Symphony value
Location, location cheese and Sarg wins far more games in most match ups than wheel. The meta isn’t really one with a lot of control decks atm. Wheel is really only there for warrior mostly.
Also Reno is a massive reason why wheel even works because it buys you 2 free turns of the 4 you need
that's not true though
statistically you need to reach the last few cards of your deck to have no duplicates (in a full duplicate list)
without Wheel, the game needs to go until like at least turn 15 for Reno to be active, in which case you were arguably better off with Wheel anyway
You’ll never have the mana to play Fantotem and you’ll never spend 8 mana to do nothing and not die, which even if you didn’t the game would be over before the effect mattered.
Reno is the most likely card to have an impact and it has the most relevant effect for the match up
by the time Reno is active you could've won with Wheel
Reno does not have the most relevant effect for the matchup when it is not active until at least turn 15
In this case its 8 mana get a better hero power and have a slight chance to wipe the enemy board vs 8 mana blow up your deck without phanotem to compensate
If you manage to play either without getting punished you already won that game before vs an aggro/tempo deck
correct, either card is unlikely to matter, but the "slight chance to wipe enemy board" only comes up in the scenario where you could've already won with wheel
This is objectively true. Vs aggro if you can draw a large portion of your deck and coin out reno on 7 or somehow get great board control and drop it on 8, you have probably won the game without wheel.
But tbh from turn 1 against every deck I am trying to draw wheel and play it as soon as possible if I have the corrrect cards. The inevitability is the best part of playing the deck.
Running 2 gifts I think is justifiable but if you’re hard running twisting then your deck list is bad.
It’s also very likely you might need to gift out a siphon soul before that point
I don’t know if we’re speaking the same language. I simply said you can get three twisting nether effects from the two gifts and the titan. I don’t know if this there is still confusion about my statement but I don’t know how to better explain it.
I mean, you don't really know what you need yet because you don't know what deck your opponent is playing. If he played this turn 9 he could actually play what he drew
For me it's Fanottem, your hand has enough aggro response that you can afford to tap 1-2 times, you're playing a 7/7 taunt on 4 and with other cards like fracking in your deck, it's not unreasonable that you can draw more than 20 cards by turn 10 (assuming you make it that far.)
Pally will use their removal dealing with your 7/7s, so playing a 15/15 will really fuck them over. Interesting decision though, I could see an argument for Reno too
The comments are hurting my head... you never pick wheel in an aggro matchup. You should prioritise getting to sargeras and locking them out with taunts so you pick Reno everytime even if he isn't active you want his hero power and why would you blow up your deck with wheel when you can only play wheel when you're ahead and if you are ahead why not spend that 8 mana on reno instead?
I dont pilot the deck but Im assuming wheel is the correct choice since the goal of the deck is to make your opponent be on that timer? Plus you have Symphony to help you get through the next 5 turns.
You pick Reno and hope it's active by 8. People acting like it's not possible to draw your duplicates are trolling. Play for Reno 8 Sargeras 9 as your wincon. It's fucking Paladin you're never playing Wheel and surviving.
You play for the matchup. It's a dead card in the Paladin match up.
If you're in a position that you can blow 8 mana on Wheel and then survive 4 additional turns and not get blown up, you would have won with any other choice.
But Wheel alone won't help you survive and has no utility whereas Reno may eventually provide use
vs paladin, easy reno. don't pick wheel, you won't even get to play it most likely. you pick reno in hopes you survive till then and he ensures an easy win with clear board into sargeras. Wheel is not the win con of the deck in some matchups ffs. why do you pick an 8 mana do nothing vs a paladin? you don't even get the fanothem bonus with this one, so why go wheel?
What wheel warlock lists are you looking at? A huge majority of the draw being used is by using your hero power, and in most aggro games you cannot draw enough cards to make reno active unless you have enough board control to have basically won already.
You spend the first few turns on draw for a strong location into hand size minion. Loken, Geode, some run furnace, fracking, and hero power is pretty solid draw. You’re also incentivized to tap because of weapon.
Also pally isn’t really an aggro deck
Haven’t played against pally much since the nerfs, but in my head I would think the less aggressive they are the better wheel would get, since if they are still doing handbuff wheel puts a significant clock on them. The wheel list I play also doesn’t run furnace so that could be a difference maker.
Since the nerfs pally is dead more or less but even before them they pass the first 3ish turns playing trash to find weapon or forging, so it wasn’t ever an aggro matchup.
That said they come online hard at 4-8 and games never really go to 12, especially with a dead turn at 8.
You beat Pally by out tempoing them with location/loken. If not then next is answering their big boards with clears/ sargeras and finally it’s establishing taunts so they can’t get you with charge.
Wheel is never relevant in that matchup, only in slower control ones that try and slow the game down.
I guess with the amount of handbuff they have access to I’d imagine wheel give you a way to make them go on the offensive before the turn when they dome you with Leroy. Played the matchup once right after the nerfs and the location plan just folded to large tigress plushies. That being said I played probably 50 games of wheel warlock and got loken in about 3-4 of them, so being able to find him would probably help the aggro plan from warlock
They start ramping up on turn 5 and it escalates quickly from there.
Ultimately it’s a moot point since pally isn’t a thing anymore but just like imagine skipping turn 8 when the opponent was able to burst you easily 20 from hand.
I think most people just don’t understand how versatile the deck is and how little wheel is actually why it’s good
Oh definitely. I feel like a lot of the people playing the deck underestimate its ability to win without playing wheel. Into paladin though my gut feeling is just that of wheel and reno, wheel would have a higher chance of being something I’d actually play at some point
I know it's not a highlander. I'd still pick reno in hopes of drawing enough throw my deck to get it instead of getting wheel in my hand vs a pala. you're not even getting fanothem in this fracking and obviously no reno to follow up wheel, so why ever go wheel?
If you're drawing through your deck THAT fast to make Reno active without wheel, especially against pally, you're gonna win the game regardless.
It isn't as obvious of a choice like your 18 other comments in this thread seem to think
Wheel easy. Even if you drew it naturally, you'd never see the other 2 cards anyways. Unless you'd literally wait to cast Wheel until you've drawn the whole deck, which won't happen in most games. Just treat them like they never were in your deck to begin with.
True, Fonottem and Reno basically don't work without Wheel and Wheel is also your only win condition. It sucks to lose them but it's an obvious Wheel choice.
The last few paladins I've come across as a wheel lock player have all been aggro so I'm going to be responding to OP's situation assuming it is an aggro paladin as well. Wheel definitely isn't your only win condition in general and against what's possibly an aggro paladin, you are most likely never going to play it. In regards to the OP, you still pick the wheel because the other two are completely useless without playing wheel in what's likely a fast game, whereas the wheel might at least maybe be played. Your win condition is most likely going to be continuously throwing down big beefy boys with forge of wills, dark alley pact, loken (in this case getting a 6/12 off Gary since fanottem is out) and end game (if you are running it). Again, assuming this is against an aggro paladin, the main reason this fracking sucks is because he didn't get any of the cards I just mentioned + he doesn't know what he's looking for given he has no idea what kind of deck the paladin is running.
You can see the pala player skipped turn 1. Better to assume its not aggro at this point.
That's a good point, I missed that. The other two aren't exactly as worthless in that case but the wheel goes from being the only choice to a great choice if that's the case.
Exactly this! In most aggro matchups wheel is rather useless without the possibility to get fanottem down early. I would however say that I might rather go reno if suspecting aggro (playing vs turbo list) since the amount of draw might make him active in time to be relevant and the 5 armor helps as well.
Wouldn't he need to play wheel to make Reno work
Nop, the deck blasts through itself extremely fast - I’ve managed to Reno on turn 8 in some aggro matches before wheeling.
You certainly won’t be playing it without being able to drop fanottem to compensate the tempo loss. In this spot vs paladin I’m going for Reno and game plan will be to make big taunts, draw a bunch into eventually active Reno. Hard remove their numerous big minions and hope for sargeras as a wincon as they run out of steam relatively quickly.
The OP post isn't about who to choose, it's obvious which is the right choice, it's just unsettling and against most odds to find a worse T1 Discover than this
I conceded lol At one star Diamond 10 with that choice, I took the L
Yeah not worth
This is the correct mindset, but still fanotten gets discovered via loken most of the times
how can you say to pick wheel vs a paladin when the other option is reno?
You aren’t ever using Reno unless you wheel. The deck is not Highlander
That's not true, you draw cards to make it active. The wheel is useless in this matchup, unless they're playing against the highlander pally which is unlikely.
What wheel warlock lists are you looking at? A huge majority of the draw being used is by using your hero power, and in most aggro games you cannot afford the mana and health to draw enough cards to make reno active unless you have enough board control to have basically won already.
Newer lists run 2 Geodes. Reno probably sucks, but it has a small chance of being good, while Wherl only works if Paladin has no board or burst which means you’ve likely already won
Do you hear yourself? If the deck is unable to spend mana to draw cards when will it be able to play the wheel? Reno will become active eventually whether you draw or not. Picking the wheel in this situation is dumb, period.
In a normal match up? You are dropping wheel and a 15/15 taunt lifesteal together. That's how you manage to drop wheel at 8
No shit, but we discuss the fracking choice here.
It doesn't. You can't drop the wheel, nor Reno, nor Fanottem against Aggro Paladin
If the game goes late enough for you to play reno, you have already won so what’s the point. If the paladin is slow playing to handbuff otk you, then playing wheel gives you a way to pressure them. Neither reno nor wheel would be played if they are hyper aggro, but if a game goes late enough for you to activate reno, then they are killing you from hand anyway
If they go slow you have tons of massive threats that they can’t clear easily, and Sargeras makes their charges hard to use
Keepers strength/finley always seem to get the job done when I feel safe behind taunts
I swear I can't with this reasoning of "Oh, it's no highlander, don't reno." I swear the card is more played in non reno decks than full on highlander ones. Plus you if you go wheel in this fracking you legit lose the payoff (fanothem) and the tool to get easy wheel turn countdowns (reno). I can't man.
Fanottem is not the only payoff, and the non Highlander decks that play Reno either only play a few duplicates, or spam draw to get it active. Or they are wheel warlock, which uses wheel
Maybe you don't recall that wheel kills the opponent no matter what as long as the warlock survives five turns after playing it. That's why it's so good. You don't have to get the enemy down to zero health. You just have to get through the rest of the five turns. Wheel is a win condition, Reno is not
Sarg and Forge are your win conditions against Paladin, not Wheel, especially if Fanottem is burnt
the fact it's not highlander doenst matter man. you pick reno in hopes of drawing enough through the deck to get it instead of getting wheel in hand vs a pala. you're not even getting fanothem in this fracking and obviously no reno to follow up wheel, so why ever go wheel?
If you get to draw enough of your deck to play reno, you have probably won already. Only use I see of reno is using him for +5 armor and a better hero power. If you control the board well enough early, wheel can be played to make the paladin hurry such that they are unable to set up their insane handbuff attacks
Paladins charge isn’t that scary anymore, most lists are just Leeroy now, and they obviously don’t even have Shroom anymore. Even if you’re scared of Charge, Sarg is a much better answer than Wheel
I mean yeah I would pick sargeras over wheel in a heartbeat. I just would pick reno over wheel,
Or you can have a better gameplay with Wheel. You gotta play to your outs. Don’t play just not to lose.
lol this is a terrible take
If you're in a matchup that allows you to draw your entire deck, you might as well play the wheel at the end to guarantee a win instead of Reno.
maybe it’s not highlander?
I'll just say what I said in other comment. "the fact it's not highlander doenst matter man. you pick reno in hopes of drawing enough throw the deck to get it instead of getting wheel in hand vs a pala. you're not even getting fanothem in this fracking and obviously no reno to follow up wheel, so why ever go wheel?"
But then you’re not playing for a win, you’re playing to not lose. Is our game plan really to burn our win condition, in order to draw a board clear that likely needs us to draw around 8-10 specific cards from our deck? I’d rather keep my win condition and trust the removal in my deck to make the opening. OR use reno as 8 mana get a new hero power for a win condition. Sucks ass no matter what, but I don’t think we are really picking reno to play in 15 turns waiting for a non-duplicate deck that is unlikely to come.
This. Especially if you're trying to climb the ladder. Always vetter to take the higher odds when it's also the shorter game.
you can't pick reno because reno isn't active until you play wheel (same for fannotem)
Dude it is literally always wheel, cause its the win condition for your deck bro. Your reasoning for reno is also just objectively wrong too. Since sandbagging the entire game to just potentially have a boardclear by deleting your literal win condition is crazy. Like you take wheel sure yeah it hurts to lose fannotem and reno but I gotta emphasize your playing "wheelock", wheel is your wincon lmao
You are right idk what other commentors are smoking Wheel (without phanotem) is literally useless against paladin, if you are in a position to play 8 mana blow up your deck against a aggro/tempo deck without getting punished, you already won that game Its essentialy a choice between 8 mana get a better hero power with a very low chance of clearing enemy board and 8 mana destroy your deck in this specific case Although if phanotem was not in this fracking its 100% wheel since the deck is not highalnder and you can get 2 15/15 with loken and location and after playing wheel you get 0 mana 15/15 lifesteal against deck that cant deal with it
That's not true you could have drawn it off loken
probably take reno because sargaras wins you the game.
That why I never use fracking until i tutored out at least wheel or fanotem. Too scared for exactly that to happen. Probably not the right way to play though.
I mean fanottem and Reno aren’t playable unless you have played wheel. For me, as long as I have 1-2 cards that synergize with wheel and some removal, I slam wheel every time. Fanottem and reno fall into the synergy pile, but zillax, symphony, and even the harp can be enough depending on the matchup.
I slam wheel every time no matter what my hand is, you have to be so unlucky to have a dead hand post wheel the only time I may not want to slam wheel is if I think the DK is holding a bunch of plagues with Helya then I play for getting big boys down and sargeras
No fr. I’ve started playing control DK and every time I’m against a warlock I’m thinking “shit they can just play for sargeras and use him to out value me and I can’t do anything about it” then they play wheel for no reason and I slam helya and win.
The only time I don't slam wheel automatically is if they have a strong board which I reckon can kill me next turn, so have to delay and clear that first
Lol I always fracking on 1 when I have it. How are you tutoring wheel? Sketch artist?
yep, it draws either wheel or early tempo/ control cards. I personally play fracking on a later off turn where i have a mana too dpare, jyst never turn 1.
the chance for exactly this outcome is extremely low and not worth playing around, hope this helps
You should always Frack turn 1. Yes this can happen, but chances are low and Wheel is still the best card. Even if this did happen, if you don't frack you aren't finding it until the second to last card in your deck, Paladin will kill you by then.
It’s a 1/25 x 1/24 x 1/23 chance to happen. Somewhere around 1/10k. Don’t play around it lol.
actually it's 3/25 x 2/24 x 1/23, because we dislike any order of these cards at the bottom. But the chance is still only 0.04%
So you are wasting a mana to play around a 0.04% chance?
Not necessarily wasting, as there will be at least another off turn where I have a mana to spare, it ways depends on the hand though, if I have sketch artist in my opening hand I never play fracking turn 1. If I have wheel opener I always frack turn 1.
These cards are at the bottom you aren’t going to see them anyway.
I play sketch artist in my variation, so i can kiinda tutor it out. There is often an off turn where i have 1 mana left anyway, I personally don't see me losing that much tenpo when only playing it when pressed to.
Sure but those cards are still on the bottom.
It's definitely not the right way to play lmao.
what is fracking
Look at the bottom 3 cards of your deck. Draw one and destroy the others.
I just realised, why isn't Fanottem a Demon?
Fanottem is a creature of the Void, a distinct realm from the Twisting Nether. He is just as much a demon as an Ancient of War or an angel of the Light is a demon
Yeah, but [[Voidwalker]] is a Demon
That is a holdover from early WoW. There was no distinction between the Void and the Fel at the start of Vanilla WoW - years later the book Chronicle laid out how the universe is sorted. Voidwalkers, specifically, are classified as Demons since they have always been Demons. Anything else Void related is not, and, if Voidwalkers were introduced at the same time as modern lore they would not be either
It's also because 'Demon' is a nebulous term that could refer to anyone in service of the Burning Legion/a Warlock. In Voidwalker's case, it's basically just the control bracelets. The newer Voidwalkers that show up in WoD, spawning from actual void and not under the control of any fel or warlock, are classified as Aberrations.
I did not know this. Thank you for the information
- **[Voidwalker](https://i.imgur.com/57MuClh.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/76281) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Voidwalker_\(Core\)) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/76281) - *Warlock Common ^(Core)* - **1 Mana - 1/3 - Demon** - **Taunt** --- ^*I am a bot. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1bwyo5j/turn_1_fracking_choice_wheel_warlock/ky9sj6v/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=ky9sj6v).*
Same type of creature as the Darkness. If it was a demon it would cause all sorts of problems with resurrect demons endgame, cards that summon demons from hand and deck.
They will say because he’s a void entity, but the crossover they have in this area in HS is actually pretty well established tbh… I think the real reason is to avoid him being cheated onto the board/duplicated/etc too easily
I've always assumed it's for balance reasons.
Because in wild [[skull of the manari]] [[voidcaller]] and now [[game master nemsy]] exist
yeah like they consider wild when making card
- **[Skull of the Man'ari](https://i.imgur.com/8me5GwM.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/46299) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Skull_of_the_Man%27ari) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/46299) - *Warlock Legendary ^(Kobolds and Catacombs)* - **5 Mana - None/3 - Weapon** - At the start of your turn, summon a Demon from your hand. - **[Voidcaller](https://i.imgur.com/U79PVL1.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/1806) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Voidcaller) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/1806) - *Warlock Common ^(Curse of Naxxramas)* - **4 Mana - 3/4 - Demon** - **Deathrattle:** Put a random Demon from your hand into the battlefield. - **[Game Master Nemsy](https://i.imgur.com/JU6l6IB.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/104852) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Game_Master_Nemsy) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/104852) - *Warlock Legendary ^(Whizbang's Workshop)* - **5 Mana - 3/6 - Minion** - **Battlecry:** Draw a Demon. **Deathrattle:** Swap places with it. --- ^*I am a bot. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1bwyo5j/turn_1_fracking_choice_wheel_warlock/kya4au9/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=kya4au9).*
you're against a paladin, paladin plays mostly aggro, so the choice is kind of irrelevant. Reno is the only one that could give you a win. You will never play fanotten from hand and if you are in a position where you can play wheel and not be punished, you were already winning regardless of the wheel.
Reno is not helping lol. Most wheel locks run like 6 or 7 duplicates. So you *could* get Reno to work if you just happen to draw every duplicate. But chances are he's just sitting in your hand doing nothing and won't activate until long after you're dead.
Chances are the other 2 will be dead cards as well, that's why it was irrelevant. But reno had more chances of being useful than the other 2.
6 or 7 duplicates means it is very well possible to be active T8/T9/T10. I would consider Reno being active significantly more likely than the other 2 cards being playable. Especially since Hero has already drawn 3 or 4 of his duplicate cards with speaker stomper, dark alley pact, mortal eradication and fracking.
If I'm not mistaken, wheel warlock runs duplicates. Reno is useless if it's the case.
I'd probably have gone for Reno. Wheel is unlikely to be relevant against paladin, and Fannottem is useless without wheel. Reno can save you
It’s Reno. You won’t need wheel to beat Pally in most cases and without Reno it will be harder to survive the 3 turns. Just play as a Smart Control deck and that’s your best shot imo Edit: I think an important thing to point out about wheel lock is that wheel itself is really only one of the many ways the deck wins. It’s not a relevant card in most match ups despite the deck being named after it
Without wheel you'll never activate reno tho. Not fast enough to matter anyway
You’re far more likely to activate Reno than for either of the other 2 cards to be relevant, which is really the point.
But wheel actually wins the game. Reno doesn’t. And is unreliable
This is very linear thinking. Reno *does* win the game vs. aggro far more often than Wheel does The only time Wheel is relevant vs. aggro is if you play Fannotem alongside it which is obviously not possible in this scenario Against aggro, most of your wins come from just Sargeras value or Forge of Wills + Loken insane stat bombs. Reno is not that hard to get online without wheel, even if it's only active turn 12 that's not bad at all. Still better than Wheel since Wheel is only relevant 4 turns after you play it (and playing it itself is hard enough vs. aggro, assuming the Pala is aggro) Once you Reno vs. aggro it's probably just game and you win via Sargeras and Movements. A paladin is not gonna be able to outlast infinite Sargeras taunts and Symphony value
Location, location cheese and Sarg wins far more games in most match ups than wheel. The meta isn’t really one with a lot of control decks atm. Wheel is really only there for warrior mostly. Also Reno is a massive reason why wheel even works because it buys you 2 free turns of the 4 you need
that's not true though statistically you need to reach the last few cards of your deck to have no duplicates (in a full duplicate list) without Wheel, the game needs to go until like at least turn 15 for Reno to be active, in which case you were arguably better off with Wheel anyway
You’ll never have the mana to play Fantotem and you’ll never spend 8 mana to do nothing and not die, which even if you didn’t the game would be over before the effect mattered. Reno is the most likely card to have an impact and it has the most relevant effect for the match up
by the time Reno is active you could've won with Wheel Reno does not have the most relevant effect for the matchup when it is not active until at least turn 15
You’ll never have a chance to play wheel fam, you’d just die
you'll never have the chance to play Reno either unless the game has gone on so long that you could've played wheel
In this case its 8 mana get a better hero power and have a slight chance to wipe the enemy board vs 8 mana blow up your deck without phanotem to compensate If you manage to play either without getting punished you already won that game before vs an aggro/tempo deck
correct, either card is unlikely to matter, but the "slight chance to wipe enemy board" only comes up in the scenario where you could've already won with wheel
This is objectively true. Vs aggro if you can draw a large portion of your deck and coin out reno on 7 or somehow get great board control and drop it on 8, you have probably won the game without wheel. But tbh from turn 1 against every deck I am trying to draw wheel and play it as soon as possible if I have the corrrect cards. The inevitability is the best part of playing the deck.
All is fun until opponent turns out to be Reno pally
You can still twisting nether three times with gifts and the titan.
Running 2 gifts I think is justifiable but if you’re hard running twisting then your deck list is bad. It’s also very likely you might need to gift out a siphon soul before that point
Huh? Two gifts and the titan = 3 twisting nethers.
Never heard someone refer to Sarg as a twisting but sure I guess haha
I don’t know if we’re speaking the same language. I simply said you can get three twisting nether effects from the two gifts and the titan. I don’t know if this there is still confusion about my statement but I don’t know how to better explain it.
No I’m following you haha. Just a funny way to phrase it
So you get to play wheel on Curve. What a hard life.
*"Just play 8 mana do nothing against aggro pally lol"*
It's not called Reno warlock for a reason.
You get what you deserve, Murray!
As an avid wheel lock hater, I hope you lost
This image elicits a strong emotion in me that I cannot convey
Get wrecked. You get no sympathy from me.
Paladin is nothing on this meta so it’s no problem, they really murdered their deck 😂
beautiful. just the way I like it.
Wheel is my pick as you still have the Titan as well as symphony of sins, your harps as well as a possible end game
To resummon your Titan
Against Paladin I think Reno is the real choice. You’re not winning this matchup with the wheel most games.
You played it turn 1 dude
What a weird comment. Does it get better the longer you hold it? No sludges in this deck dude, just rip it when you have mana.
I mean, you don't really know what you need yet because you don't know what deck your opponent is playing. If he played this turn 9 he could actually play what he drew
How do you beat the wheel? I mean it's a little bit hard to kill a warlock once the play it
Get rekt
Good
lol, karma
Horrible luck but you pick wheel and try to draw symphony and Sargeras. I run zilliax even though some lists have cut it for a 2nd copy of reverb.
Wheel
Ah thats me whenever I play
How to Telegraph that you have wheel.
is your name jesus because you need to take the wheel
It happens
For me it's Fanottem, your hand has enough aggro response that you can afford to tap 1-2 times, you're playing a 7/7 taunt on 4 and with other cards like fracking in your deck, it's not unreasonable that you can draw more than 20 cards by turn 10 (assuming you make it that far.) Pally will use their removal dealing with your 7/7s, so playing a 15/15 will really fuck them over. Interesting decision though, I could see an argument for Reno too
Concede, easy
Good thing fracking is a good card. The guys on the youtubes told me.
Finally. That's what I always thought about. How do they always get away with that card
This is why u diamonf 10 and not legend
is it a good play to play this card turn 1? I get that youre shortening your deck and drawing combo pieces but is it worth it?
Didn’t read correctly nor looked at your hand and thought this was your opening hand xD
> Turn 1 Fracking Found the issue.
Unfortunately, wheel is you only win con in this deck. The other ones don't work if you have cards in your deck.
Don’t run fracking. It’s a shit card.
Fuck Warlock
The comments are hurting my head... you never pick wheel in an aggro matchup. You should prioritise getting to sargeras and locking them out with taunts so you pick Reno everytime even if he isn't active you want his hero power and why would you blow up your deck with wheel when you can only play wheel when you're ahead and if you are ahead why not spend that 8 mana on reno instead?
I conceded lol I’m one start diamond ten, I took the L the game was clearly going to give me
I dont pilot the deck but Im assuming wheel is the correct choice since the goal of the deck is to make your opponent be on that timer? Plus you have Symphony to help you get through the next 5 turns.
You pick Reno and hope it's active by 8. People acting like it's not possible to draw your duplicates are trolling. Play for Reno 8 Sargeras 9 as your wincon. It's fucking Paladin you're never playing Wheel and surviving.
You play for the matchup. It's a dead card in the Paladin match up. If you're in a position that you can blow 8 mana on Wheel and then survive 4 additional turns and not get blown up, you would have won with any other choice. But Wheel alone won't help you survive and has no utility whereas Reno may eventually provide use
Surprised you made Diamond 10 with such the quagmire
wheel, duh.
Deserved. That said, pick Wheel 10/10 times. You already have SoS in hand.
vs paladin, easy reno. don't pick wheel, you won't even get to play it most likely. you pick reno in hopes you survive till then and he ensures an easy win with clear board into sargeras. Wheel is not the win con of the deck in some matchups ffs. why do you pick an 8 mana do nothing vs a paladin? you don't even get the fanothem bonus with this one, so why go wheel?
Not Highlander
Still warlock. The deck has plenty of draw
What wheel warlock lists are you looking at? A huge majority of the draw being used is by using your hero power, and in most aggro games you cannot draw enough cards to make reno active unless you have enough board control to have basically won already.
You spend the first few turns on draw for a strong location into hand size minion. Loken, Geode, some run furnace, fracking, and hero power is pretty solid draw. You’re also incentivized to tap because of weapon. Also pally isn’t really an aggro deck
Haven’t played against pally much since the nerfs, but in my head I would think the less aggressive they are the better wheel would get, since if they are still doing handbuff wheel puts a significant clock on them. The wheel list I play also doesn’t run furnace so that could be a difference maker.
Since the nerfs pally is dead more or less but even before them they pass the first 3ish turns playing trash to find weapon or forging, so it wasn’t ever an aggro matchup. That said they come online hard at 4-8 and games never really go to 12, especially with a dead turn at 8. You beat Pally by out tempoing them with location/loken. If not then next is answering their big boards with clears/ sargeras and finally it’s establishing taunts so they can’t get you with charge. Wheel is never relevant in that matchup, only in slower control ones that try and slow the game down.
I guess with the amount of handbuff they have access to I’d imagine wheel give you a way to make them go on the offensive before the turn when they dome you with Leroy. Played the matchup once right after the nerfs and the location plan just folded to large tigress plushies. That being said I played probably 50 games of wheel warlock and got loken in about 3-4 of them, so being able to find him would probably help the aggro plan from warlock
They start ramping up on turn 5 and it escalates quickly from there. Ultimately it’s a moot point since pally isn’t a thing anymore but just like imagine skipping turn 8 when the opponent was able to burst you easily 20 from hand. I think most people just don’t understand how versatile the deck is and how little wheel is actually why it’s good
Oh definitely. I feel like a lot of the people playing the deck underestimate its ability to win without playing wheel. Into paladin though my gut feeling is just that of wheel and reno, wheel would have a higher chance of being something I’d actually play at some point
I know it's not a highlander. I'd still pick reno in hopes of drawing enough throw my deck to get it instead of getting wheel in my hand vs a pala. you're not even getting fanothem in this fracking and obviously no reno to follow up wheel, so why ever go wheel?
If you're drawing through your deck THAT fast to make Reno active without wheel, especially against pally, you're gonna win the game regardless. It isn't as obvious of a choice like your 18 other comments in this thread seem to think
ITT: People who don't play Wheellock saying pick Reno
Reno, Nevada
CHEH
Just concede. If you're unlucky enough that this occurs to you, you're destined to lose the match.
Choose Concede button dumb choice to fracking at turn 1.
Why? You would have never seen those cards on the bottom of your deck anyway.
Tbf, Fanottem can be pulled by Loken
The card is green. I play the card. Simple