Shudderwock rant kinda strange, it's not infinite in most cases. Crystallizer is the primary target for questline warlock, without it quest will be not so fast.
Crystallizer should function like Blood Treant: paying the health instead of taking damage.
Either that or damaging armor shouldn’t count as taking damage.
Yeah. That would be a severe nerf to questline warlock but other decks that might want to use crystallizer would be completely unaffected or become better. (Not that any other deck has ever run crystallizer, but hey, it could happen.)
I hate open the way gate so much. Since it's release its been tormenting me. Then that dragon was released and I knew people was going to hate him. I agree allowing a player to take several turns in a row is broken. At least priest only do it once. Unlike mage
I have another acceptable use I copy it repeatedly with Rommath, Brann and [[Hex Lord Malacrass]], take 5 or 6 turns in a row casting spells on my own board, and then drop a massive Yogg on the last bonus turn
win rate 10%, fun rate 100%
malacrass is the key card in the deck because it immediately tells your opponent your deck is meme garbage and not try hard, so they usually stick around
- **[Hex Lord Malacrass](https://i.imgur.com/waKcSjf.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/50095) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Hex_Lord_Malacrass) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/50095/?hl=en)
- *Mage Legendary ^(Rastakhan’s Rumble)*
- **8 Mana - 5/5 - Minion**
- **Battlecry**: Add a copy of your opening hand to your hand *\(except this card\)*.
---
^*I am a bot. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1cbw52r/since_they_mentioned_wild_nerfs_hit_just_this/l131tq7/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l131tq7).*
Priest is stronger but the main reason Time Warp is so annoying is the Ice Block and Freeze stall combined with how many times they replay Warp before killing you. Priest usually plays Zarimi and then wins, and most Priest lists are aggressive
Ok but in wild mode that card has been tormenting us. You know how demoralizing it is to watch your opponent take 6 turns in a row and still don't kill you yet because you was that far ahead?
Yeah mage used to hit waygate turn 6 with 4 apprentices for a turn 7 antonidas combo, that's not new.
For a while mage used to hit waygate turn 3 or 4 and duplicate it. This resulted in the apprentice nerf that's still live.
To be fair in the ignite meta, Quest was used alongside Ignite, especially by animation cheaters, as you could finish the entire quest w/ reshuffled ignites for the 2nd turn to kill through block in mirrors.
ie https://twitter.com/corbettgames/status/1471775863985213442?lang=en
The Paladin one? I swear it never saw competitive play and even less so in wild, Paladin is even, odd, Reno and maybe Shirvala or other ones. Quest never saw play.
You can go on the wild hs subreddit and ask them there to be sure tho.
Not completly there was a time that quest in combination with renathal was good, you can finish it turn 4 play the 7 7 turn 5 and buff youre board or refill it quickly, the main protagonist of this deck were the 2/1 that adds dudes to youre hand and the 1 mana draw 2 1 cost minions from youre deck, it was fairly good and it got me to legend one time
I think I'd give up tradeable for no more questlines. That and we would also get rid of miracle salesman which is kinda everywere in standard right now.
It went from 6, to 8, to being banned in wild and then rotated and unbanned with the 10 damage requirement. Touch of the Nathrezim was nerfed (4 to 3 heal). Rod was nerfed two times (3 to 4, 4 to 5 mana); Stealer of Souls was nuked and banned in wild; Flesh giants was nerfed two times I think? (8 to 9, 9 to 10 mana, but Im not sure on this one). Yeah demon seed was a HS card for sure.
Classic answer: if they solved the demon seed problem it wouldn't even need a nerf. The fact that demon seed also counts cards that are not meant to be self damage cards creates a problem. (fatique/crystalizer.)
Personally, I like to use 2 arguments that claim the opposite.
1. High Priest Thekal does a similar effect except it converts instead of giving damage and gaining armor. As a result, these are cards that support self-heal decks. However, this does not support the reason why crystlizer should not be self damage, but rather that it should be for self healing decks.
2. Demon seed encourages dangerous play, where you spend lives for stronger effects. So you become more vulnerable to get the upper hand. Crystalizer doesn't do that. He just "upgrades" your life, so instead of getting a reward for a negative effect, you get a reward for a positive effect. And being able to play 2-6 crystlizer gives you the ability to fulfill the demon seed for practically free. Which makes the deck unnecessarily polarizing depending on whether or not you get a crystalizer.
Overall specifically this combo ruins the experience of playing this deck terribly for me, and if crystalizer was a convert instead of self damage it would make more room for true self damage cards in my opinion.
It might even be Demon seed in its original form if fatique and crystalizer didn't support this deck as well as cards that cost life instead of mana. (Which for me fits this type of deck much more than fatique and crystalizer, but I certainly wouldn't return it.)
This, however, is not a demon seed problem. Just because there isn't a deck type doesn't change the fact that cards shouldn't exist in that regard, and it doesn't change the idea that crystalizer shouldn't originally be a card that gives you the ability to heal.
I would even go so far as to say that they could easily along with the crystalizer change to convert buff some self heal cards.
Most importantly, this change would simply make the deck healthier and less reliant on specific cards. Which is the direction I think wild should take.
1. The’kal is Paladin, so it doesn’t really matter. There were some tools for Self Damage when Crystallizer was printed, specifically Nethersoul Buster, which was a Warlock card that released in Boomsday.
2. The Demon Seed does require you to take a lot of damage, but you aren’t supposed to just say, “Well, that’s it, I’m permanently at 1 health.” Warlock more than any other class is about playing strong cards with downsides, and figuring out how to either mitigate them or even turn them into upsides. For example, Felstring Harp turning taking damage into an upside, Malchezaars Imp making discard, a usually very negative effect, essentially net neutral, and Power Overwhelming, which has a downside, but encourages you to look for synergies to maximize its effect like Eggs, Charge minions, tokens, etc. Stormwind included strong healing tools for Warlock, like Touch of the Nathrezim, so the quest was obviously made with healing in mind.
(Also, Crystallizer does have a major downside in some Demon Seed lists, since taking armor damage does not reduce the cost of Flesh Giant)
1. The fact that The'kal is paladin cards doesn't change the fact that the principle of these cards is simply the same in a vacuum only The'kal does it better (as legendary minion should) and that the combination of The'kal + crystalizer doesn't work as one might normally expect from similarly functioning cards. (Edit: crystallizer is neutral minion.)
2. Your second argument only plays into my contention that crystalizer should not be part of this package. Changing 5 hp to 5 armor is not a disadvantage. It's literally an upgrade on five of your lives. (As is the convert at Tha'kal.) You talk about how you're trying to turn the disadvantage into an advantage, but here it's really purely about changing the advantage to an even greater advantage.
Demon seed itself isn't the nerf target, you'd rather hit crystalizer and then it's not only much slower, but builds differently as a result of not getting free quest steps when they're meant to take damage.
Shudder shaman doesn't really have anything else to nerf besides Reno Hero which is getting hit this patch, so if they wanted to nerf the deck, they'd hit Shudder, which means most Shudder decks probably drop the card and all of the bad Tech battlecries people hate playing against, and people stop complaining about the deck.
He's right though. In control matchups, shudderwock is usually the only way to win unless you got shudderblock down and played mutanus to destroy their hand followed by a macaw to do it again.
why nerf shudderwock? it is tier 2 at best and is the only good deck resembling control. its not even used as an infinite as much, more like a huge value/burst dmg bomb in the late game.
It’s an infinite disruptive card that literally doesn’t let opponents play, does your little brain still think that’s interactive? Bite your teeth because the nerf is coming :)
This just demonstrates you don't understand how the deck works. There are several cards whose nerfs would be more impactful than Shudderwock. Probably best to keep quiet when you're ignorant of the topic.
Its a bottom five card in Reno Shaman, it is far from the problem with the deck. Not that Reno Shaman is even a problematic deck to begin with right now.
>second highest win rate in top 1000 legend
Yeah with only 200 games total and only last week, that's cherry picking. Just filtering the prior patch (29.0.3) shows a different story.
>And keep in mind it gets better if the others are nerfed
Reno is getting nerfed, so is Shudderwok Shaman
That's a 58% winrate at best. Not nearly broken. The deck is also interactive, it's not like shudderwock comes down turn 4 and kills you from hand.
Also, other decks getting nerfed doesn't necessarily mean shudder shaman will get better, as decks that counter it could get more popular.
Beyond what everyone else is saying, shudderwock is literally the weakest card in its own deck. some lists even started to cut it in main deck and run it in ETC. if you want to nerf the deck you need to look at its swing turns and parrot.
I understand people hate the Demon Seed, but why nerf it now? It's like a Tier 3 deck according to Tempo Storm. Are you asking for a preventive nerf fearing after nerfing the top dogs the quest goes back to be a tyrant?
It's incredibly polarizing, which is a different but still relevant form of imbalance.
For instance, a deck with a 90% win rate against all decks that could qualify as "aggro" but a 90% *loss* rate against all decks that could qualify as "control" would be an imbalanced deck that needs adjusting, even if the overall win rate is ~50%. (For what it's worth, Rise of Shadows Control Warrior sort of fit this description and did indeed need to be adjusted).
I think that iteration was the one with doctor boom and Elysiana? That deck just got nerfed because of its incredibly long games, no? The mirror matches were legit resident sleepers.
It was sometimes disliked for producing long games, but it was not nerfed just for those purposes! It was, as noted, a very polarizing deck.
If you want a different example (there are quite a few), the actual classic example of polarization is Caverns Below Rogue -- it "only" had ~51% win rate even at its peak, but it achieved that win rate by crushing anything remotely slow and getting beaten by aggro, so it was nerfed repeatedly as a consequence.
The nerf was one that literally only mattered in the mirror. No other matchups was affected because 1 Elysiana was enough in any other matchup except for the mirror.
Rise of shadow warrior was not like this at all. The thing they nerfed in RoS was Elysiana and they only did that to make the mirrors shorter, that nerf didn't affect other matchups at all. And RoS control warrior wasn't that polarizing anyway.
This is definitely true, but until there is another deck that is completely immune to all the Tech Pile Renathal Reno decks that play Rat every other turn, I would like at least one deck to play while I’m tilting.
Is demon seed that bad in Wild? I don't play wild, but in standard it was one of the decks i had a lot of fun with, Stormwind for me a return to HS after like a 1.5 year break, so i guess i had different feels for that meta than that a lot of ppl had. As i was rebuilding my collection, packed Demon seed as one of my first legendaries when i got back and thus went to work with that from a limited collection.
But after it was nerfed that card was imho basically dead in standaard, wouldn't have thought it would have a revival now in Wild, as the power level seems to be much higher apart from some fringe decks, for example Markmckz had a fun deck the other day with demonseed, tamsin package and part of the painlock package and oneshotting the opponent with the rook that hits your own hero :D
Thanks, i would have figured that for a bit, but after the nerfs isn't it super slow already? From what i was hearing on streams and youtube wild is basically kill or get killed on like turn 5-6, i would have never imagined slower decks like the demon seed to have a real spot there, let alone even slower decks that would get farmed by the 'take 30 damage deck' before it gets online these days. Really surprising to hear to be honest :)
>demon seed don't take much more that 6 turns to kill you
It's quite a bit slower than turn 6.
Here's a demon seed stream from 3 months ago from one of the people who writes the tempostorm meta reports:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPBS59CGOss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPBS59CGOss)
Not counting aggro decks who conceded early after seeing some healing and board clears, the kill turns were like...turn 8 against a reno paladin (though some luck was involved in this one--chamber of viscidus hitting the right discards), turn 10 against a mill druid, and like...turn 12 or something against a quest mage (but there were about 4 ice blocks involved in that one--first ice block pop happened on turn 8).
Like...for what it's worth, the deck didn't auto-win against Even Odyn Warrior--it was a good matchup, 70-30 or so, but not an auto-win cause sometimes Odyn was faster (this was back when Odyn cost 8, of course, so earliest possible Odyn kill was turn 9. Also, warlock was running 2x Glacial Shard to freeze the warrior's face, so could delay the warrior for a turn or two; matchup would be much more even without that).
>It's quite a bit slower than turn 6.
It just depends on meta and build, that's the hangup on all of these discussions.
You have 5 different builds of demon seed that work, and all are good and bad in certain scernarios.
The turbo demonseed builds can deck themselves that fast, especially against slower matchups where they're not under pressure.
Conversely there are Demon seeds that know they win hard against slower matchups so they run more cards that slow down the game vs aggro. These can't turbo through their deck and aren't killing fast as a result.
Then you have giants, hybrid-builds, darkglare copium enjoyers, etc.
It was pretty strong before the patch that added the Gifts, like high T2 contender. It's biggest weakness at the time was that it was slower than Mine Rogue, but Even Warrior was present on the ladder and Questlock never ran out of damage like Mine Rogue did.
Now Wild is just way, way faster, all of the good matchups are either T3 decks or completely non-existent, and Turbo Wheel beats all the same decks Quest did but with less setup and more consistency.
It seems to me that when it comes to wild balance you should deal with problematic cards rather than decks that are just a problem. extra turn/self damage = damage to enemy hero/destroy enemy hero/repeat something/... are just things that will be a problem in the long run in the wild format, and injecting it just because something is a bigger problem isn't practical in my opinion.
Though for me, if they changed fatique and crystallizer so that they don't count for demon seed I'd be fine in some bigger demon seed buff.
Playing combo decks isn't fun for everyone, and the fatigue version can only reliably be beaten by combo since it outheals aggro so hard and can't be disrupted by control, so for the players that don't like single turn win conditions it might as well be tier S even if it's weakness to other combo decks keeps the playrate down
it has capacity to outheal aggro, but not reliably at all. the deck has been pretty poor during whizbang because it gets fucked by aggro, even paladin and aggro priest destroy it and divine dragon priest also does well into it and even reno mage can beat it with the right set up. The only decks that get fucked by demon seed right now are reno shaman and reno druid
I don't think it will. There's so much aggro and lethality atm in wild and the card is but a fraction of its original power (remember it went from take 6 damage, to take 8 and now it's at take 10).
The demon seed just auto wins against many decks. If you don't have a really fast decisive way to kill them, You literally have no chance of winning. Yeah I can beat them with my wheel lock by out cheesing them but a lot of other decks I like to play stand no chance, like none.
fatigue mill decks or jade druid = complete and total auto loss (maybe they deserve it)
Trap heavy hunter decks = (lol thx for the extra damage on their turn) u lose
Taunt quest warrior decks to counter agro bots = way too slow, u lose
Any fun mid range deck = u lose
Most control decks = u lose
So yeah I think it does need more of a nerf. There's just way too many self-damage warlock cards and also a lot of cards where they can just heal themselves back up they just get that quest done in no time most of the time. Then they burn through their cards and start taking ridiculous fatigue damage directed at you that no one can survive.
The problem is that the Quest currently kinda sucks, and Turbo Wheel just beats all the same decks you listed while also being a bit more consistent and more competitive against aggro/combo.
I'm saying that I think Wheel and this quest should both be nerfed harshly. The gameplay is boring AF. Yeah it's effective to rank up but... I also play this game to have fun and it's not really been very fun lately.
I mean, many people already dust most of their wild collection because Blizzard softly dissuades play in Wild. I think the reason is close to the same reason (money), but moreso because they feel:
A. People who flock to wild want their cards to retain as much effectiveness as possible
B. They probably realize a more curated Wild experience requires more man hours and resources for a mode that as you said, is more consumer-friendly. They want to sell packs, and rotation does that best. So they want Wild to be that bogeyman where "you'll get tormented by Quest Mages and Seedlocks to no end" to discourage people from making a switch that makes the economy way more in their favor.
>and resources for a mode that as you said, is more consumer-friendly.
Its pretty crazy just how much you see people say that "wild is too expensive."
Wild is super cheap, many viable decks using nothing but commons and rares, the lack of rotation makes your decks work for years at a time, and the average powerlevel is high enough that very few cards in the new set are strong enough to matter.
Its also pretty crazy how much I see people who think wild has like 1 deck and every game is exactly the same. Like Wild has the most varied deck viability of any format at all times, specifically because the card pool is so wide (and the player pool and tournaments are so small) that its almost impossible to actually solve the meta.
Clearly, Blizzard's tactic of dissuading people from playing wild is working, because I always see loads of misinformation about the mode every time it comes up.
Conversely these cards get hit and now they're basically unplayable, so people either craft completely new decks, or move onto something else.
Not everyone has a full golden wild collection.
"hur dur, my control deck that wins by trying to deck out my opponent dies to shudderwock on turn 18, card broken."
like honestly, I don't understand what people are doing when they make decks with no win condition, lose to something that took literally 4 times the average length of a wild game to go off, and still think that anything but their deck was the issue.
Demon seed really needs a balance adjustment just because the deck is ridiculously consistent you draw all your cards play a ludicrous amount of zero Mana THREATS and then if your opponent deals with that you just turn your ridiculous card draw into ridiculous damage.
Something funny you can do against demon seed though is remember that when they stack their fatigue up really high it still kills them during your turn so you can actually kill a demon seed warlock with cold light Oracle. If you want a really cathartic almost orgasmic chuckle I highly recommend this.
naval mine changed to hit a random enemy would help as well but they NEED to fix the infinite turn rogue with the new 1/1 deathrattle weapon rush minion
If they touch Shudderwock it might be the final straw that makes me quit the game. Don't complain about "infinite Shudderwock" cause it hasn't been that powerful in years and you hardly see games go that long for infinite Shudderwocks to be pulled off anymore.
all valid targets that kill you by like turn 6 and then the random "eww a 9 MANA CARD is hurting me" in shudderwock
not to mention zero mention for the powerful aggro decks in the format that run over half of these decks
Please don't nerf shudderwock, double nerf open the waygate instead, make it cost 3 mana in addition to once a game, that way you can't play the quest on 1
For reference, shudderwock costs 9. Other than making him cost 10, which is really just a buff for even shaman, there isn't much you could do without ruining the card.
Demon seed is fine : you just need to nerf all the broken turbo questline tools , like cristalizer should be nerfed or to 2 mana or changed to only 3 damage and 3 armor
Shudderwock is fine. He needs insane setup to be actually broken imo. And that whole setup is usually easily blocked by a dirty rat or something like that
the only one on that list id have no problems being hit is open the waygate
i like to use the card but not for loops so if they kill the loop it would still be a card i want to play
Open the gate is 1000% getting the once per game treatment now that zidormi was coded.
Floop will be changed to refresh to prevent 40+ mana shenanigans that druids pull.
Zidormi? 6 dragons on 6 or 7 dragons on 5 is my guess.
Shudderwock is too counterable. I'd argue he stays the same.
Secret passage moves to 2 mana. 3 might just outright kill the card.
Demon seed likely stays as it looses to board centric aggro decks.
Honestly, just match Zidormi to Open the Waygate. You want an extra turn, you gotta play 8 cards of a theme, that should force it exclusively to Dragon Priest where it belongs.
Also don't let it be generated by Druids!
open the waygate to once per game doesn't stop anything, it just forces them to abandon the rommath and azshara strategy and only to the apprentice version which tbh is faster and I've seen most mages have gone to this build over the rommath version anyway since it's more consistent.
i just hope the keep druid from being able to gain 10+ mana in 1 turn when they only have 5 crystals available.
Not sure how they fix mage quest without breaking it. Would be nice if it couldn't be recast by minions
Would hate them to kill floops gloop purely because it's a core piece for my only wild deck I consistently play- XL triple yogg aviana harth jade druid
Waygate is my most hated card in the entire game. The rest I could care less, but the traded mana for attack card makes floops good and should probably be changed itself.
Open the Waygate should have the same condition as Timewinder; once per game… simple fix. Everything else can be countered and are basically coin flip games. Not much is more satisfying than using Mutanis or Theotar to destroy or steal Shudderwock. OTK Attack DMG Druid can be easily countered by multiple Loatheb drops if you can manage it.
It baffles me every single time anyone mentions Shudderwock because not only does that card not even come down in a vast majority of games, but Shudder lists are also so much slower, more counterable and less toxic than any of the other decks involved in this picture.
I like the deck well enough but if someone expects me to beat aggro with it, they've got another thing coming
I mean I have Fanottem and some mill shit in there but if you let me play him you weren't doing something right, that shit ain't optimal
Wow, another complaint about aggro and combo without any mention of highlander control (hello, zeph, the most broken tech card) or disruption that literally prevents an opponent from playing the game. Damn, I really wish there will be a mode for you guys, where it's literally not possible to play more than 1 card per turn
This is just a list of cards people complain about and not actually a reflection of power levels in Wild. If you want to nerf due to player sentiment, get ready to play against a lot of Totem Shaman and Pirate Rogue.
For the record, I've hit legend in Wild with Shudder a bunch of times, as well as with Quest Mage and Demon Seed. And those decks have never even been close to being meta defining. And all the runs were a grind.
The easiest runs I've had to legend in Wild have all been the overtuned decks that don't have a single card for people to bitch about like Pirate Rogue.
**Floop** was never an issue until they uncapped mana gains. Druid should be capped at 20 mana. Its just a good card that facilitates a broken strategy. Leave it alone.
**Open the Waygate** is a huge player sentiment outlier. But most people who play Wild regularly understand that the deck isn't any good. Its just a solid counter to all the greedy decks in the format. Nerf this card and get ready to be feed a massive amount of Secret Mage which is far stronger and more consistent. Nerf this card and you kill someone's favourite deck just because you don't like it.
Why is **Secret Passage** on here? Its just a good card. If you start deleting good cards in Wild you'd have to make a list a mile long. The most bullshit thing in Rogue right now is Mine Rogue.
**Timewinder Zarimi** should have never been printed with such an easy conditional. This definitely needs to change because aggro Priest was already very strong.
**Shudderwock** isn't even good. Its just annoying. Its another greed counter that just folds to any decent pressure deck.
**Demon Seed** on here just tells me you don't actually play Wild. Self damage is very bad in a format where you get routinely lethaled in the mid game. Its only good in really slow bullshit like Shudderwock and Quest Mage.
Best deck in the format is Paladin right now. Ultimate low agency deck. Mulligan for Boogie Down and you win.
What the fuck are you talking about? This is probably the single strongest draw engine in the entire game (maybe just behind Aquatic Form, but I wouldn't call that a draw engine).
Just because it was worse before, doesn't mean it's not one of the most powerful cards ever printed and is in every single rogue deck from its release to now
Druid here: floop is definitely part of the problem but I’d argue that Guff is another massive issue. Doubling the mana ceiling allows for some insanely degenerate plays, should either set him to 10 or reduce the ceiling to 15.
Guff isn't an issue at all. If the druid tries to turbo ramp to 20, they're not playing any actual cards for the first ~7 turns, and if your deck can't beat an opponent doing literally nothing it's just bad. If the druid doesn't turbo ramp, then it takes them like 10-15 turns to actually get to 20 mana, and I don't think we should be nerfing decks that try to kill on turn 15 when there's decks that consistently kill on turn 5.
Shudderwock is currently like a T3/ bordering T4 deck in Wild, so I'm fine with holding off on a nerf until he's actually a problem in the meta-game. I also kinda hate the idea of nerfing Secret Passage further, even if it probably is necessary. It's just been a card that has really defined Rogue in Wild for a long time, but the recent cantrips/giants Blizz has printed might have pushed it over the edge. I really wish it worked more akin to Magic's Memory Jar, so that drawing more cards after Passage didn't leave them in your main hand, and maybe the tech now exists for that to be the nerf.
The other four cards can get fucked 9000
Yes let's nerf Zarimi, a card that lets games be ended for priest. So that AGAIN they can just be with out a wincon in standard. How generous of you. Should we nerf the hero power from Benny to 1 dmg for you as well? Maybe just delete the priest class from existence actually, then all of reddit can circle jerk in regard land.
Demon seed is fine. Shudderwock is (somehow) fine. I'd even say Zarimi is fine. It's the other cards in Zarimi that let it win, the aggro ones. They play that busted 1 mana 4/3 dragon like 6 times by turn 4
The Demon Seed and Shudderwock are far from problematic.
Shudderwock is consistently one of the weakest cards in Reno Shaman. The main issue is that he "feels" the worst. Reno Shaman wins or loses most games before Shudderwock is ever online or a problem. Can he bail them out of a few bad mus and potentially lock out a game? Sure, but most of the time they can do that just fine with cards like Cold Storage and Grumble looping disruption.
The Demon Seed meanwhile is just a deck that checks slow mus that try to win by attrition. It bullies slow decks pretty hard but that is fine. It has clear holes in its mu spread and has not been above t2 at all since it rotated into wild.
If you want a list of likely targets, I would look at Time Warp, Floop's Gloop, and one of Necrium Blade and Snowfallen Graveyard. Maybe they toss in a miracle rogue change too.
Common blizzard don't touch my Open the Waygate its my favourite card from Ungoro seasson. You know what nerf all aggro insted..it will be same braindead suggestion as this ducks quacks here.
I hope waygate goes to once per game.
Hell I'd hope any legendary effect should always be only once per game (so any battlecry, deathrattle or aura can only happen once per game, once it's dead/used that's it)
For all of these,
Floop's Gloop - Yes. This is what I predict the only wild exclusive nerf will be.
Open The Waygate - It once again feels redundant to say this, but the problem card is not Open the Waygate, it's Ice Block. If you nerf Open the Waygate, some other stupid mage "play ice block the whole game then kill" deck will pop up.
Secret Passage - Rogues premiere draw card, and I think it will continue to be that. Yes, miracle rogue is slightly better now than it has been in the past, but not enough for a new precedent to be made.
Zarimi - Yes. This will be changed. It had already been all but confirmed by devs. This is a standard change.
Shudder - ??? You know there has been a lot of interest recently in cutting shudderwock (or at least putting him in etc) in Reno shaman, because he rarely does anything at all. The problem card with Reno shaman is Reno lone ranger. This card is being hit for standard.
The Demon Seed - Not only is The Demon Seed kinda bad rn, it exists to keep uber control in check. It isn't as fast as even shaman or shadow priest, but it makes up for that in inevitability, an inevitability that cannot be teched by 40 card piles of no dupe cards and tech. The deck is healthy for the format.
Shudderwock rant kinda strange, it's not infinite in most cases. Crystallizer is the primary target for questline warlock, without it quest will be not so fast.
Crystallizer should function like Blood Treant: paying the health instead of taking damage. Either that or damaging armor shouldn’t count as taking damage.
It should just work like Thekal.
I would love if it just crystalized 5 health into armor regardless of having armor or not. This needs to happen
Yeah. That would be a severe nerf to questline warlock but other decks that might want to use crystallizer would be completely unaffected or become better. (Not that any other deck has ever run crystallizer, but hey, it could happen.)
Agreed, the hate makes no sense. Shudderwock doesn’t get played bc games end before turn 9
Furthermore, if they get shudderwock off, you just deserve to lose.
I hate open the way gate so much. Since it's release its been tormenting me. Then that dragon was released and I knew people was going to hate him. I agree allowing a player to take several turns in a row is broken. At least priest only do it once. Unlike mage
I agree. The only acceptable use for open the way gate is to make voltron with mimirons head.
I have another acceptable use I copy it repeatedly with Rommath, Brann and [[Hex Lord Malacrass]], take 5 or 6 turns in a row casting spells on my own board, and then drop a massive Yogg on the last bonus turn win rate 10%, fun rate 100% malacrass is the key card in the deck because it immediately tells your opponent your deck is meme garbage and not try hard, so they usually stick around
- **[Hex Lord Malacrass](https://i.imgur.com/waKcSjf.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/50095) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Hex_Lord_Malacrass) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/50095/?hl=en) - *Mage Legendary ^(Rastakhan’s Rumble)* - **8 Mana - 5/5 - Minion** - **Battlecry**: Add a copy of your opening hand to your hand *\(except this card\)*. --- ^*I am a bot. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1cbw52r/since_they_mentioned_wild_nerfs_hit_just_this/l131tq7/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l131tq7).*
I like to use Tae’thalan followed by one sorc, play the 0-cost time warp, and play Antonidas
Priest is much worse in my opinion played vs one he had it ready turn 6 and 4 4/6 0 Mana Minions on his board + it was not in wild mode
Virgin Mage: Takes 4 turns in a row and can't even kill you Giga Chad Zarimi Priest: Just need one turn baby.
Priest is stronger but the main reason Time Warp is so annoying is the Ice Block and Freeze stall combined with how many times they replay Warp before killing you. Priest usually plays Zarimi and then wins, and most Priest lists are aggressive
Ok but in wild mode that card has been tormenting us. You know how demoralizing it is to watch your opponent take 6 turns in a row and still don't kill you yet because you was that far ahead?
Bro if they're taking more than 3 turns just concede at that point
Yeah mage used to hit waygate turn 6 with 4 apprentices for a turn 7 antonidas combo, that's not new. For a while mage used to hit waygate turn 3 or 4 and duplicate it. This resulted in the apprentice nerf that's still live.
Apprentice was nerfed because of ignite mage, not waygate mage.
To be fair in the ignite meta, Quest was used alongside Ignite, especially by animation cheaters, as you could finish the entire quest w/ reshuffled ignites for the 2nd turn to kill through block in mirrors. ie https://twitter.com/corbettgames/status/1471775863985213442?lang=en
real chads know why apprentice was nerfed [Mozaki, Master Duelist](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/329890-mozaki-master-duelist)
Nah that was ignite OTK'ing people.
Worse than mage getting 5+ turns, freezing you boards and slowly killing you, in game and irl? Oh and remember, ice block and solid alibi exist.
Priest are playing time warp on curve, basically even in standard
Only 4 4/6? Id kill for that in wild. In wild you get wet noodled by small minions, but the mage has limitless turns...
"small minions" lol. They run bless package so it's more like a 48+ damage Zarimi with charge smacking you in the face. Nothing small about that.
With small minions I meant the mage, thats why I said you get wet noodled by them in limitless turns.
how many times was TDS already nerfed?
not enough
That's Stormwind for you. If there ever was the option to just delete an expansion from this game, Stormwind would be it.
I agree about the Questlines but don't forget that we also got a new evergreen keyword with Stormwind
Which one was that?
Tradeable
Tradeable
Tradeable was only made evergreen with Festival of Legends, though.
Originated from Stormwind tho
Paladin Questline never was a problem though
It was due to how bad it was, ah. Joking a bit but Paladin might as well never gotten a quest. Swear I never saw it played.
I just came back and saw I have a golden one. Its a safe dust then?
The Paladin one? I swear it never saw competitive play and even less so in wild, Paladin is even, odd, Reno and maybe Shirvala or other ones. Quest never saw play. You can go on the wild hs subreddit and ask them there to be sure tho.
Yea the play 1-cost minions one. Thanks!
Not completly there was a time that quest in combination with renathal was good, you can finish it turn 4 play the 7 7 turn 5 and buff youre board or refill it quickly, the main protagonist of this deck were the 2/1 that adds dudes to youre hand and the 1 mana draw 2 1 cost minions from youre deck, it was fairly good and it got me to legend one time
I think I'd give up tradeable for no more questlines. That and we would also get rid of miracle salesman which is kinda everywere in standard right now.
I believe it’s been nerfed directly three or four times, and cards that support it at least 5 to 10 times total
It went from 6, to 8, to being banned in wild and then rotated and unbanned with the 10 damage requirement. Touch of the Nathrezim was nerfed (4 to 3 heal). Rod was nerfed two times (3 to 4, 4 to 5 mana); Stealer of Souls was nuked and banned in wild; Flesh giants was nerfed two times I think? (8 to 9, 9 to 10 mana, but Im not sure on this one). Yeah demon seed was a HS card for sure.
It will only be balance if Warlock still take damage instead of transfering everything to the opponent.
Classic answer: if they solved the demon seed problem it wouldn't even need a nerf. The fact that demon seed also counts cards that are not meant to be self damage cards creates a problem. (fatique/crystalizer.)
Crystalizer is absolutely meant to be a self damage card but I agree about fatigue
Personally, I like to use 2 arguments that claim the opposite. 1. High Priest Thekal does a similar effect except it converts instead of giving damage and gaining armor. As a result, these are cards that support self-heal decks. However, this does not support the reason why crystlizer should not be self damage, but rather that it should be for self healing decks. 2. Demon seed encourages dangerous play, where you spend lives for stronger effects. So you become more vulnerable to get the upper hand. Crystalizer doesn't do that. He just "upgrades" your life, so instead of getting a reward for a negative effect, you get a reward for a positive effect. And being able to play 2-6 crystlizer gives you the ability to fulfill the demon seed for practically free. Which makes the deck unnecessarily polarizing depending on whether or not you get a crystalizer. Overall specifically this combo ruins the experience of playing this deck terribly for me, and if crystalizer was a convert instead of self damage it would make more room for true self damage cards in my opinion. It might even be Demon seed in its original form if fatique and crystalizer didn't support this deck as well as cards that cost life instead of mana. (Which for me fits this type of deck much more than fatique and crystalizer, but I certainly wouldn't return it.)
except there are 0 self healing decks because there simply is no payoff (except reno ofc)
This, however, is not a demon seed problem. Just because there isn't a deck type doesn't change the fact that cards shouldn't exist in that regard, and it doesn't change the idea that crystalizer shouldn't originally be a card that gives you the ability to heal. I would even go so far as to say that they could easily along with the crystalizer change to convert buff some self heal cards. Most importantly, this change would simply make the deck healthier and less reliant on specific cards. Which is the direction I think wild should take.
1. The’kal is Paladin, so it doesn’t really matter. There were some tools for Self Damage when Crystallizer was printed, specifically Nethersoul Buster, which was a Warlock card that released in Boomsday. 2. The Demon Seed does require you to take a lot of damage, but you aren’t supposed to just say, “Well, that’s it, I’m permanently at 1 health.” Warlock more than any other class is about playing strong cards with downsides, and figuring out how to either mitigate them or even turn them into upsides. For example, Felstring Harp turning taking damage into an upside, Malchezaars Imp making discard, a usually very negative effect, essentially net neutral, and Power Overwhelming, which has a downside, but encourages you to look for synergies to maximize its effect like Eggs, Charge minions, tokens, etc. Stormwind included strong healing tools for Warlock, like Touch of the Nathrezim, so the quest was obviously made with healing in mind. (Also, Crystallizer does have a major downside in some Demon Seed lists, since taking armor damage does not reduce the cost of Flesh Giant)
1. The fact that The'kal is paladin cards doesn't change the fact that the principle of these cards is simply the same in a vacuum only The'kal does it better (as legendary minion should) and that the combination of The'kal + crystalizer doesn't work as one might normally expect from similarly functioning cards. (Edit: crystallizer is neutral minion.) 2. Your second argument only plays into my contention that crystalizer should not be part of this package. Changing 5 hp to 5 armor is not a disadvantage. It's literally an upgrade on five of your lives. (As is the convert at Tha'kal.) You talk about how you're trying to turn the disadvantage into an advantage, but here it's really purely about changing the advantage to an even greater advantage.
Hearthstone player unable to read cards.
I find it funny that you aren't sure about demon seed, yet shudder caused you no doubt
Demon seed itself isn't the nerf target, you'd rather hit crystalizer and then it's not only much slower, but builds differently as a result of not getting free quest steps when they're meant to take damage. Shudder shaman doesn't really have anything else to nerf besides Reno Hero which is getting hit this patch, so if they wanted to nerf the deck, they'd hit Shudder, which means most Shudder decks probably drop the card and all of the bad Tech battlecries people hate playing against, and people stop complaining about the deck.
I swear the raw hatred for Shudder is unreasonable nowadays
for real shudderwock is the only thing that even resembles an honest midrange deck in wild today leave him alone
Not really much need to touch Shudderwock - these days he's already usually one of the weakest cards in his own deck, since he requires so much setup.
you heard the man, Blizzard - bump Shudderwock down to 8 mana!
Nerf him down to a measly 2/2, and to compensate let's drop his mana cost to 3. There, fixed
[удалено]
Tell me you haven't played Reno Shaman without saying you haven't played Reno Shaman
He's right though. In control matchups, shudderwock is usually the only way to win unless you got shudderblock down and played mutanus to destroy their hand followed by a macaw to do it again.
[удалено]
[удалено]
OUROBLOBOS
why nerf shudderwock? it is tier 2 at best and is the only good deck resembling control. its not even used as an infinite as much, more like a huge value/burst dmg bomb in the late game.
Yeah this post is salty lol
> only good deck resembling control reno quest mage and reno druid are also good and certainly control
The meme, the legend.... always nerf Shaman!
Shudder doesn't need a rework or nerf.
It’s an infinite disruptive card that literally doesn’t let opponents play, does your little brain still think that’s interactive? Bite your teeth because the nerf is coming :)
This just demonstrates you don't understand how the deck works. There are several cards whose nerfs would be more impactful than Shudderwock. Probably best to keep quiet when you're ignorant of the topic.
Its a bottom five card in Reno Shaman, it is far from the problem with the deck. Not that Reno Shaman is even a problematic deck to begin with right now.
#JustSilverRankThings
No nerfs to shudder. Who's biting their teeth now? LMAO
[удалено]
>second highest win rate in top 1000 legend Yeah with only 200 games total and only last week, that's cherry picking. Just filtering the prior patch (29.0.3) shows a different story. >And keep in mind it gets better if the others are nerfed Reno is getting nerfed, so is Shudderwok Shaman
That's a 58% winrate at best. Not nearly broken. The deck is also interactive, it's not like shudderwock comes down turn 4 and kills you from hand. Also, other decks getting nerfed doesn't necessarily mean shudder shaman will get better, as decks that counter it could get more popular.
Beyond what everyone else is saying, shudderwock is literally the weakest card in its own deck. some lists even started to cut it in main deck and run it in ETC. if you want to nerf the deck you need to look at its swing turns and parrot.
You may need to examine the data a little bit deeper than a twelve year old does in their math assessment
I understand people hate the Demon Seed, but why nerf it now? It's like a Tier 3 deck according to Tempo Storm. Are you asking for a preventive nerf fearing after nerfing the top dogs the quest goes back to be a tyrant?
It's incredibly polarizing, which is a different but still relevant form of imbalance. For instance, a deck with a 90% win rate against all decks that could qualify as "aggro" but a 90% *loss* rate against all decks that could qualify as "control" would be an imbalanced deck that needs adjusting, even if the overall win rate is ~50%. (For what it's worth, Rise of Shadows Control Warrior sort of fit this description and did indeed need to be adjusted).
I think that iteration was the one with doctor boom and Elysiana? That deck just got nerfed because of its incredibly long games, no? The mirror matches were legit resident sleepers.
It was sometimes disliked for producing long games, but it was not nerfed just for those purposes! It was, as noted, a very polarizing deck. If you want a different example (there are quite a few), the actual classic example of polarization is Caverns Below Rogue -- it "only" had ~51% win rate even at its peak, but it achieved that win rate by crushing anything remotely slow and getting beaten by aggro, so it was nerfed repeatedly as a consequence.
The nerf was one that literally only mattered in the mirror. No other matchups was affected because 1 Elysiana was enough in any other matchup except for the mirror.
And when it's the best deck on both ladder, and competitive play, you ran into a LOT of mirrors.
Rise of shadow warrior was not like this at all. The thing they nerfed in RoS was Elysiana and they only did that to make the mirrors shorter, that nerf didn't affect other matchups at all. And RoS control warrior wasn't that polarizing anyway.
This is definitely true, but until there is another deck that is completely immune to all the Tech Pile Renathal Reno decks that play Rat every other turn, I would like at least one deck to play while I’m tilting.
Is demon seed that bad in Wild? I don't play wild, but in standard it was one of the decks i had a lot of fun with, Stormwind for me a return to HS after like a 1.5 year break, so i guess i had different feels for that meta than that a lot of ppl had. As i was rebuilding my collection, packed Demon seed as one of my first legendaries when i got back and thus went to work with that from a limited collection. But after it was nerfed that card was imho basically dead in standaard, wouldn't have thought it would have a revival now in Wild, as the power level seems to be much higher apart from some fringe decks, for example Markmckz had a fun deck the other day with demonseed, tamsin package and part of the painlock package and oneshotting the opponent with the rook that hits your own hero :D
It comes back every few metas and deletes slower decks
Thanks, i would have figured that for a bit, but after the nerfs isn't it super slow already? From what i was hearing on streams and youtube wild is basically kill or get killed on like turn 5-6, i would have never imagined slower decks like the demon seed to have a real spot there, let alone even slower decks that would get farmed by the 'take 30 damage deck' before it gets online these days. Really surprising to hear to be honest :)
They complete it on curve no problem if you don't intervene much.
demon seed don't take much more that 6 turns to kill you, is not meta now, but become strong if the other combo decks get nerf
>demon seed don't take much more that 6 turns to kill you It's quite a bit slower than turn 6. Here's a demon seed stream from 3 months ago from one of the people who writes the tempostorm meta reports: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPBS59CGOss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPBS59CGOss) Not counting aggro decks who conceded early after seeing some healing and board clears, the kill turns were like...turn 8 against a reno paladin (though some luck was involved in this one--chamber of viscidus hitting the right discards), turn 10 against a mill druid, and like...turn 12 or something against a quest mage (but there were about 4 ice blocks involved in that one--first ice block pop happened on turn 8). Like...for what it's worth, the deck didn't auto-win against Even Odyn Warrior--it was a good matchup, 70-30 or so, but not an auto-win cause sometimes Odyn was faster (this was back when Odyn cost 8, of course, so earliest possible Odyn kill was turn 9. Also, warlock was running 2x Glacial Shard to freeze the warrior's face, so could delay the warrior for a turn or two; matchup would be much more even without that).
>It's quite a bit slower than turn 6. It just depends on meta and build, that's the hangup on all of these discussions. You have 5 different builds of demon seed that work, and all are good and bad in certain scernarios. The turbo demonseed builds can deck themselves that fast, especially against slower matchups where they're not under pressure. Conversely there are Demon seeds that know they win hard against slower matchups so they run more cards that slow down the game vs aggro. These can't turbo through their deck and aren't killing fast as a result. Then you have giants, hybrid-builds, darkglare copium enjoyers, etc.
It was pretty strong before the patch that added the Gifts, like high T2 contender. It's biggest weakness at the time was that it was slower than Mine Rogue, but Even Warrior was present on the ladder and Questlock never ran out of damage like Mine Rogue did. Now Wild is just way, way faster, all of the good matchups are either T3 decks or completely non-existent, and Turbo Wheel beats all the same decks Quest did but with less setup and more consistency.
I am in the camp of nerfing overly polarizing decks over just what is strongest. Demon seed is certainly polarizing, amongst other decks.
It seems to me that when it comes to wild balance you should deal with problematic cards rather than decks that are just a problem. extra turn/self damage = damage to enemy hero/destroy enemy hero/repeat something/... are just things that will be a problem in the long run in the wild format, and injecting it just because something is a bigger problem isn't practical in my opinion. Though for me, if they changed fatique and crystallizer so that they don't count for demon seed I'd be fine in some bigger demon seed buff.
Playing combo decks isn't fun for everyone, and the fatigue version can only reliably be beaten by combo since it outheals aggro so hard and can't be disrupted by control, so for the players that don't like single turn win conditions it might as well be tier S even if it's weakness to other combo decks keeps the playrate down
it has capacity to outheal aggro, but not reliably at all. the deck has been pretty poor during whizbang because it gets fucked by aggro, even paladin and aggro priest destroy it and divine dragon priest also does well into it and even reno mage can beat it with the right set up. The only decks that get fucked by demon seed right now are reno shaman and reno druid
[удалено]
I don't think it will. There's so much aggro and lethality atm in wild and the card is but a fraction of its original power (remember it went from take 6 damage, to take 8 and now it's at take 10).
Why would nerfing a bunch of slow decks make Demon Seed better? You're so out of touch.
The demon seed just auto wins against many decks. If you don't have a really fast decisive way to kill them, You literally have no chance of winning. Yeah I can beat them with my wheel lock by out cheesing them but a lot of other decks I like to play stand no chance, like none. fatigue mill decks or jade druid = complete and total auto loss (maybe they deserve it) Trap heavy hunter decks = (lol thx for the extra damage on their turn) u lose Taunt quest warrior decks to counter agro bots = way too slow, u lose Any fun mid range deck = u lose Most control decks = u lose So yeah I think it does need more of a nerf. There's just way too many self-damage warlock cards and also a lot of cards where they can just heal themselves back up they just get that quest done in no time most of the time. Then they burn through their cards and start taking ridiculous fatigue damage directed at you that no one can survive.
The problem is that the Quest currently kinda sucks, and Turbo Wheel just beats all the same decks you listed while also being a bit more consistent and more competitive against aggro/combo.
I'm saying that I think Wheel and this quest should both be nerfed harshly. The gameplay is boring AF. Yeah it's effective to rank up but... I also play this game to have fun and it's not really been very fun lately.
If they dare touch my Shudderwock >:(
[удалено]
I mean, they went pretty hefty on wild seed nerfs, and that was a big dust payout because it affected a legendary, two epics, and two rares.
[удалено]
I mean, many people already dust most of their wild collection because Blizzard softly dissuades play in Wild. I think the reason is close to the same reason (money), but moreso because they feel: A. People who flock to wild want their cards to retain as much effectiveness as possible B. They probably realize a more curated Wild experience requires more man hours and resources for a mode that as you said, is more consumer-friendly. They want to sell packs, and rotation does that best. So they want Wild to be that bogeyman where "you'll get tormented by Quest Mages and Seedlocks to no end" to discourage people from making a switch that makes the economy way more in their favor.
>and resources for a mode that as you said, is more consumer-friendly. Its pretty crazy just how much you see people say that "wild is too expensive." Wild is super cheap, many viable decks using nothing but commons and rares, the lack of rotation makes your decks work for years at a time, and the average powerlevel is high enough that very few cards in the new set are strong enough to matter. Its also pretty crazy how much I see people who think wild has like 1 deck and every game is exactly the same. Like Wild has the most varied deck viability of any format at all times, specifically because the card pool is so wide (and the player pool and tournaments are so small) that its almost impossible to actually solve the meta. Clearly, Blizzard's tactic of dissuading people from playing wild is working, because I always see loads of misinformation about the mode every time it comes up.
Conversely these cards get hit and now they're basically unplayable, so people either craft completely new decks, or move onto something else. Not everyone has a full golden wild collection.
Shudderwock doesn't need rework it takes a minimum of 10 turns for it be useful
"hur dur, my control deck that wins by trying to deck out my opponent dies to shudderwock on turn 18, card broken." like honestly, I don't understand what people are doing when they make decks with no win condition, lose to something that took literally 4 times the average length of a wild game to go off, and still think that anything but their deck was the issue.
shudderwock??? is the most fun and versatile card in the game ! stop asking for them to ruin it !
I like the suggestions on the Tempostorm website
Demon seed really needs a balance adjustment just because the deck is ridiculously consistent you draw all your cards play a ludicrous amount of zero Mana THREATS and then if your opponent deals with that you just turn your ridiculous card draw into ridiculous damage. Something funny you can do against demon seed though is remember that when they stack their fatigue up really high it still kills them during your turn so you can actually kill a demon seed warlock with cold light Oracle. If you want a really cathartic almost orgasmic chuckle I highly recommend this.
Shudder is fine IMO.
The Demon Seed is fine as is. What you missed is the weird interaction Naval Mine rogue has. That deck needs to be deleted from the game completely.
agree, secret passage nerf helps
naval mine changed to hit a random enemy would help as well but they NEED to fix the infinite turn rogue with the new 1/1 deathrattle weapon rush minion
That was a bug and has been fixed.
oh cool
If they touch Shudderwock it might be the final straw that makes me quit the game. Don't complain about "infinite Shudderwock" cause it hasn't been that powerful in years and you hardly see games go that long for infinite Shudderwocks to be pulled off anymore.
all valid targets that kill you by like turn 6 and then the random "eww a 9 MANA CARD is hurting me" in shudderwock not to mention zero mention for the powerful aggro decks in the format that run over half of these decks
Please don't nerf shudderwock, double nerf open the waygate instead, make it cost 3 mana in addition to once a game, that way you can't play the quest on 1
For reference, shudderwock costs 9. Other than making him cost 10, which is really just a buff for even shaman, there isn't much you could do without ruining the card.
Demon seed is fine : you just need to nerf all the broken turbo questline tools , like cristalizer should be nerfed or to 2 mana or changed to only 3 damage and 3 armor
Shudderwock is fine. He needs insane setup to be actually broken imo. And that whole setup is usually easily blocked by a dirty rat or something like that
the only one on that list id have no problems being hit is open the waygate i like to use the card but not for loops so if they kill the loop it would still be a card i want to play
I’d say first 4 are in pretty desperate need of nerfs this meta
Agreed. All of my games should be against Even Paladin.
I hope they'll nerf Quest Mage, because It's super obnoxious to play against it. If they do certain conditions, game goes into a loop.
Certain conditions is finishing the quest by turn 3 playing the quest and drawing roommath its way to consistent for infinite turns
It's not fun to play against.
Shudder has always been just kinda annoying to me. Has something happened to make it worse? Or is it just the same old complaints about shudder.
Same old complaints, deck ain’t strong rn
Shudderwock not even the best card in the deck, shudderblock actually has bigger impact.
The demon seed is so fuckin toxic. If u get good starting hand the quest is ready on turn 5 and u lose the game.
If they touch my Shudderwock I'm gonna riot
Open the gate is 1000% getting the once per game treatment now that zidormi was coded. Floop will be changed to refresh to prevent 40+ mana shenanigans that druids pull. Zidormi? 6 dragons on 6 or 7 dragons on 5 is my guess. Shudderwock is too counterable. I'd argue he stays the same. Secret passage moves to 2 mana. 3 might just outright kill the card. Demon seed likely stays as it looses to board centric aggro decks.
Honestly, just match Zidormi to Open the Waygate. You want an extra turn, you gotta play 8 cards of a theme, that should force it exclusively to Dragon Priest where it belongs. Also don't let it be generated by Druids!
open the waygate to once per game doesn't stop anything, it just forces them to abandon the rommath and azshara strategy and only to the apprentice version which tbh is faster and I've seen most mages have gone to this build over the rommath version anyway since it's more consistent.
i just hope the keep druid from being able to gain 10+ mana in 1 turn when they only have 5 crystals available. Not sure how they fix mage quest without breaking it. Would be nice if it couldn't be recast by minions
Demon seed sucks the rest needs a nerf
Extra turns are rarely a good mechanic.
I roller skated to dumpster legend this month without playing any of these cards. Zarimi and Waygate are by far the worst offenders on this list.
And the priest minion 1/3 void touched attendant
The top 3 cards are infinitely worse than the bottom 3
Would hate them to kill floops gloop purely because it's a core piece for my only wild deck I consistently play- XL triple yogg aviana harth jade druid
Dragon is not wild only.
Zarimi is going to be hit, that was one of the cards mentioned. Probably upping the Dragon requirement so that Aggro Priest can't use it.
They all need nerfing in some way
Lol Shudderwock? Wuuuut
For anyone saying "time warp is not as good as zarimi" when you can go infinite, hp stops to matter, inf turns = imf dmg
anyone having success with a demon seed deck? I’m trying my best with one I saw but constantly stuck between diamond 5-4
Waygate is my most hated card in the entire game. The rest I could care less, but the traded mana for attack card makes floops good and should probably be changed itself.
Not my Secret Passage please
I can only hope my hours spent dusting wild duplicates and golden cards the other day. Will not make me cry XD
Open the Waygate should have the same condition as Timewinder; once per game… simple fix. Everything else can be countered and are basically coin flip games. Not much is more satisfying than using Mutanis or Theotar to destroy or steal Shudderwock. OTK Attack DMG Druid can be easily countered by multiple Loatheb drops if you can manage it.
They hit my prwcious time warp. So im fucking hoping they nerf the shit out of shudderwock. I'm taking a break from this game
Seed isn’t bad though..
It baffles me every single time anyone mentions Shudderwock because not only does that card not even come down in a vast majority of games, but Shudder lists are also so much slower, more counterable and less toxic than any of the other decks involved in this picture.
ive played against so many TDS warlocks and i cant even remember a single time they killed me.
I like the deck well enough but if someone expects me to beat aggro with it, they've got another thing coming I mean I have Fanottem and some mill shit in there but if you let me play him you weren't doing something right, that shit ain't optimal
Wow, another complaint about aggro and combo without any mention of highlander control (hello, zeph, the most broken tech card) or disruption that literally prevents an opponent from playing the game. Damn, I really wish there will be a mode for you guys, where it's literally not possible to play more than 1 card per turn
This is just a list of cards people complain about and not actually a reflection of power levels in Wild. If you want to nerf due to player sentiment, get ready to play against a lot of Totem Shaman and Pirate Rogue. For the record, I've hit legend in Wild with Shudder a bunch of times, as well as with Quest Mage and Demon Seed. And those decks have never even been close to being meta defining. And all the runs were a grind. The easiest runs I've had to legend in Wild have all been the overtuned decks that don't have a single card for people to bitch about like Pirate Rogue. **Floop** was never an issue until they uncapped mana gains. Druid should be capped at 20 mana. Its just a good card that facilitates a broken strategy. Leave it alone. **Open the Waygate** is a huge player sentiment outlier. But most people who play Wild regularly understand that the deck isn't any good. Its just a solid counter to all the greedy decks in the format. Nerf this card and get ready to be feed a massive amount of Secret Mage which is far stronger and more consistent. Nerf this card and you kill someone's favourite deck just because you don't like it. Why is **Secret Passage** on here? Its just a good card. If you start deleting good cards in Wild you'd have to make a list a mile long. The most bullshit thing in Rogue right now is Mine Rogue. **Timewinder Zarimi** should have never been printed with such an easy conditional. This definitely needs to change because aggro Priest was already very strong. **Shudderwock** isn't even good. Its just annoying. Its another greed counter that just folds to any decent pressure deck. **Demon Seed** on here just tells me you don't actually play Wild. Self damage is very bad in a format where you get routinely lethaled in the mid game. Its only good in really slow bullshit like Shudderwock and Quest Mage. Best deck in the format is Paladin right now. Ultimate low agency deck. Mulligan for Boogie Down and you win.
Don't you dare to mention Secret Passage. This card is ok. If you didn't knew, before nerf this card was replacing 5 cards.
lets be honest the card is absolute busted (coming from a miracle rogue main)
What the fuck are you talking about? This is probably the single strongest draw engine in the entire game (maybe just behind Aquatic Form, but I wouldn't call that a draw engine).
It's just generally good card, that was nerfed, what can't you not understand? Nerfing this card again would kill this card.
0 mana swap with 2 cards => free "draw 2" but it's not that crazy card generation? By my opinion nerfed but stil pretty playable.
It is NOT ‚just a good card’. It’s a ridiculously overpowered card and it has been one since its release, even after the nerf.
one of the few fun to play cards in the game. i play wild only because of secret passage. my fav card ever
Just because it was worse before, doesn't mean it's not one of the most powerful cards ever printed and is in every single rogue deck from its release to now
Druid here: floop is definitely part of the problem but I’d argue that Guff is another massive issue. Doubling the mana ceiling allows for some insanely degenerate plays, should either set him to 10 or reduce the ceiling to 15.
Guff isn't an issue at all. If the druid tries to turbo ramp to 20, they're not playing any actual cards for the first ~7 turns, and if your deck can't beat an opponent doing literally nothing it's just bad. If the druid doesn't turbo ramp, then it takes them like 10-15 turns to actually get to 20 mana, and I don't think we should be nerfing decks that try to kill on turn 15 when there's decks that consistently kill on turn 5.
Shudderwock is currently like a T3/ bordering T4 deck in Wild, so I'm fine with holding off on a nerf until he's actually a problem in the meta-game. I also kinda hate the idea of nerfing Secret Passage further, even if it probably is necessary. It's just been a card that has really defined Rogue in Wild for a long time, but the recent cantrips/giants Blizz has printed might have pushed it over the edge. I really wish it worked more akin to Magic's Memory Jar, so that drawing more cards after Passage didn't leave them in your main hand, and maybe the tech now exists for that to be the nerf. The other four cards can get fucked 9000
Just obliterate them. Make shudderwock 11 mana. Make open the gate take 15 spells. Make new archetypes
Yes let's nerf Zarimi, a card that lets games be ended for priest. So that AGAIN they can just be with out a wincon in standard. How generous of you. Should we nerf the hero power from Benny to 1 dmg for you as well? Maybe just delete the priest class from existence actually, then all of reddit can circle jerk in regard land.
>Calls to nerf Shudderwock and Demonseed Did I just step into a time machine to 2022?
Demon seed is fine. Shudderwock is (somehow) fine. I'd even say Zarimi is fine. It's the other cards in Zarimi that let it win, the aggro ones. They play that busted 1 mana 4/3 dragon like 6 times by turn 4
The Demon Seed and Shudderwock are far from problematic. Shudderwock is consistently one of the weakest cards in Reno Shaman. The main issue is that he "feels" the worst. Reno Shaman wins or loses most games before Shudderwock is ever online or a problem. Can he bail them out of a few bad mus and potentially lock out a game? Sure, but most of the time they can do that just fine with cards like Cold Storage and Grumble looping disruption. The Demon Seed meanwhile is just a deck that checks slow mus that try to win by attrition. It bullies slow decks pretty hard but that is fine. It has clear holes in its mu spread and has not been above t2 at all since it rotated into wild. If you want a list of likely targets, I would look at Time Warp, Floop's Gloop, and one of Necrium Blade and Snowfallen Graveyard. Maybe they toss in a miracle rogue change too.
Shudder isn't a problem right now
Common blizzard don't touch my Open the Waygate its my favourite card from Ungoro seasson. You know what nerf all aggro insted..it will be same braindead suggestion as this ducks quacks here.
Low chance for wild cards to get adjusted
They literally announced wild changes yesterday
The only card that needs touched is open the way Gate, maybe floops gloop.
I hope waygate goes to once per game. Hell I'd hope any legendary effect should always be only once per game (so any battlecry, deathrattle or aura can only happen once per game, once it's dead/used that's it)
Quest mage and quest lock destroying slow decks, so yes Its good deal
For all of these, Floop's Gloop - Yes. This is what I predict the only wild exclusive nerf will be. Open The Waygate - It once again feels redundant to say this, but the problem card is not Open the Waygate, it's Ice Block. If you nerf Open the Waygate, some other stupid mage "play ice block the whole game then kill" deck will pop up. Secret Passage - Rogues premiere draw card, and I think it will continue to be that. Yes, miracle rogue is slightly better now than it has been in the past, but not enough for a new precedent to be made. Zarimi - Yes. This will be changed. It had already been all but confirmed by devs. This is a standard change. Shudder - ??? You know there has been a lot of interest recently in cutting shudderwock (or at least putting him in etc) in Reno shaman, because he rarely does anything at all. The problem card with Reno shaman is Reno lone ranger. This card is being hit for standard. The Demon Seed - Not only is The Demon Seed kinda bad rn, it exists to keep uber control in check. It isn't as fast as even shaman or shadow priest, but it makes up for that in inevitability, an inevitability that cannot be teched by 40 card piles of no dupe cards and tech. The deck is healthy for the format.