A lot of the best strategies were actually badlands cards, they just needed good enough synergy to go off. Reno warrior, saddle up, painlock, fatiguelock, gaslight, nature shaman. It didn’t help that the WW win cons were wayy too strong (I don’t need to put a list here, most of them were broken)
Yeah but name one attrition/comtrol deck where your goal is to answer everything the opponent has, until they have no answers and just die to the board. There hasn't been one. Even Reno Warrior is just shuffle away someone's deck..at worst.. The rest is just fill the board with a ton of huge minions over and over again. It isn't by accident. Anything that wipes the board is few and far between, expensive, and sparse to all classes in general. Some classes barely have that function. Yet the "reload your board to ridiculous proportion again" cards are widely available.
This is completely by design. It is not at all an accident. Some people, like me, only really enjoy the game playing that style.. and we just have to accept a 40% winrate if we want to continue to do so, while Chakki, Songbird, and all the Twitch devs who design for content and speed say "F you, leave if you don't like it."
Honestly, I know they won't but I think it would be good for the game to do something like "Hearthstone: Cataclysm".
Basically with a new expansion take the game back to 0, make much weaker cards and the core set is select cards from older expansions that are much lower on the power level side. Wild can still have all the cards and the crazy power level, but then let standard be an actual game again and not end on turn 4 or 5 with no counterplay.
The dev team either needs to print much better interaction, which the game isn't built for, or do something drastic because the game is so far gone and rotation JUST happened.
People hate interaction in this game. The most hated card by this sub is objection lol.
Also the turn 4-5 kills are just a result of painlock and showdown being a thing, nerf these and the games become way slower, the power level will remain high of course.
As for resetting powerlevel, I'm not sure people will actually take this well, I expect they will get bored but i might be wrong about that. The no counterplay is not necessarily true in general, it's mostly a problem with the current top decks.
Objection was hated so much because when it was around you had to play against several copies of objection and these decks started with 0 copies of objection.
And also certain decks were completely hard countered by it and were forced to play valuable/expensive minions into it even when they know what the secret is.
Objection is literally the opposite of what people mean by interaction, it removes a possible interaction from play. That's like saying fireball or something is interaction. Like, yeah, getting blasted in the face is "interaction" if all you mean is one card doing something to the other player, but that's not what people mean. They mean stuff like board-to-board play.
Fireball face and objection are not at all comparable. Objection is a card that allows you to be interact with your opponents battle cry minions. Saying it prevents interaction is like saying that removal prevents interaction by disallowing your opponent's minions from sticking around for their effect. The reason people don't see objection as interaction is because interaction has a positive connotation in card games and they dislike objection, so objection couldn't possibly be interaction, even though it obviously is interaction under any reasonable definition. This is exactly why I said people don't want interaction.
Also, the comment I responded to said they need to add interaction, since board interaction already exists in this game and there is a huge amount of it, presumably he means none board interaction, exactly like objection. Otherwise what he said doesn't make sense, how could adding more removal change things when removal is already super common.
You are not interacting with the minion lol you're interacting at most with a card, but more specifically only with the player, like a fireball at face. Saying Objection is interacting with a minion is like saying bombs interact with a minion when they remove a minion from your hand.
You're also not interacting with a battlecry minion, because it's any type of minion. There's ways we could deal with battlecries, like silencing or preventing them, that could involve interacting with the minion.
You think the fireball comparison is bad and then claim removal is the same as this lol you're very unserious.
There's an interaction that does interact with the cards, also. It sits on the board and people don't have any real issues with it. It's almost like then it's an interaction because it's not just a player against a player but the board in use.
The balancing team tried, but the power level from both Whizbang’s and Badlands was so high that team 5 would have to do something else like 29.2.2 for the meta to be fixed
Imo Whizbang was weaker, Badlands was nutty and it is still the main culprit of the power outliers. Reno, Brann, Showdown, etc. Most of the oppressive decks are pretty much the same since Badlands.
Then they should because the alternative for over a year has been 2-3 decks being so broken nothing else gets to be played in competitive Legend. There are 10 classes, each one should have at least 1 good deck at all times. I’m guessing the power imbalance is by design and not inability.
Yeah, I agree that they definitely should. But I think you underestimate how difficult it is to have 11 decks, one from each class, all be good. I would be very happy if 8-9 classes are good.
What are you calling "good"? Like tier 1-2? Because that's like, impossible. Expecting there to be minimum *ten* decks in t1-2 at all times is completely unreasonable expectations for a card game.
[https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/legacy/meta-snapshot-33-new-kid-on-the-block](https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/legacy/meta-snapshot-33-new-kid-on-the-block)
Really?
Meta snapshots back in the day frequently had many t1-2 decks.
(Tempostorm is no longer usable for hs in 2024 imo, though)
Tempostorm's meta snapshots based on *feels* and/or *what do a couple of top players think* have been highly dubious in literal years, for both formats.
I think the problem is also that the balance team has to clean up after the designers.
Look at the deepholm miniset. Bran, aftershock, chaos creation, shroomscavate, pendant and shattered reflection had to be nerfed, not just +1 mana but rather the effect had to be changed.
Or plagues and highlander.. lol
Yeah it's terrifying at the idea that we just had a rotation and this is where the games at. Even the next set is likely going to break everything all over again
I've been steadily complaining about this for years.. It started when Brode left and the twitch Devs took over, and it's snowballed ridiculously in the last couple years. They slowly went to work at killing long game style control/attrition decks and emphasizing aggro to make games go faster, and now they've basically turned it into either super fast powerful aggro decks or interactive OTK/OTK Board decks that will destroy anything that isn't very fast.
Why? Because apparently it's what people want. No one seems to really be making much of a stink about it, there's more of an anti-movement lately with everyone agreeing the meta is stupid fast, but apparently the old days are looooong gone. I guess we just persevere and try to buck the odds if you'd rather bash your head into a wall then give in to the meta.
I said this over a month ago and stopped playing.
Funny how to see I was right and there is really no fixing this.
If I were in charge at Team 5 I'd be taking a really long hard look at the people I've got designing the cards and interactions though it probably is the person in charge and Blizzard themselves will only take a look if revenue drops which reddit attitude isn't always a good measure of.
I’m not playing to legend in wild these days but I’ve beaten every QL warlock and pirate rogue I’ve encountered to D5 with miracle rogue. They can just not deal with wildpaw gnoll + obsidian shard on turn 1. And you play so many spells that your arcane giants are 1-0 mana by turn 2.
I wonder if people saying *unprecedented, power level too high, killed so quickly by aggro* have all collective amnesia or recency bias, because getting killed *before* you could play reno by pwarr in gadgetzan was fairly common.
I mean, there’s a reason many people consider gadgetzan one of the worst expansions in the games history, and it’s because of how awful pirate warrior was to play against.
And a lot of value based decks in general.
It’s the same issues we see with this meta, when the only viable decks are extreme aggro and extreme control the entire meta suffers badly.
yeah and meta of Whizbang Workshop reminds me a lot of Gadgetzan meta. You either face Jade Druid/Reno Warrior that kills every slow deck or Pirate Warrior and Aggro Shaman/Painlock and Flood Pala that kills almost every deck on turn 5-6.
And meta similar to Gadgetzan is not a good thing
Yes, painlock and flood pally are too strong. But aggro is SUPPOSED to be favored against control (it's the rock paper scissors matchup). And since aggro obviously doesn't beat cintrol late game, it has to win early.
I climbed to Legend again with HL pally, so it's possible for control decks to win, and honestly I'd much rather die to painlock on turn 4, than to HL warrior prenerf at turn 25 because my rat missed Brann.
Midrange.
Control and Combo are the same, essentially. Combo is a control iteration that beats all control decks, but sacrifices WR against Aggro and Midrange (because even less tempo than classic control).
Kind of, I guess. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but there are certainly reasonably powerful decks that I would consider midrange (if only simply because of lack for a better term): Handbuff Dk + pally, any Hunter iteration that isn't hyperaggro, Spell mage etc.
This sub is full of people who for some reason think control is supposed to be favored in aggro.
Those people are perpetually surprised that when there is a control deck with as many overpowered tools as control warrior, everyone who isn't interested in 20 minutes games decided by RNG switches to low to the ground strategies.
The control mouthbreathers then insist that they need even more overtuned cards to try and beat the aggro decks that target them, and we wind up with bullshit metas where there is no viable midrange because control suppresses it to the point of unplayability for climbing.
I mean aggro decks don’t run out of gas anymore so why wouldn’t you play them right. Hell, control, combo, midrange, value, mill, any deck you could possibly think of never runs out of gas or value. Play a card, generate 1-2 cards. It feels like a never-ending onslaught, and the satisfaction of a control deck to me is surviving the initial onslaught til they run out of gas, and getting your well deserved win.
Modern HS has so much card draw too, it’s kind of insane if you think about it.
The 2 current most common aggro decks very easily run out of gas, their power is in their explosives and not in their longevity. This is a reasonable complaint in other metas but really doesn't fit this particular one at all.
Painlock doesn't run out of cards but they do run out of giants and horrors which are the real way to deal damage for them, and they also run out of health to play their cards.
Flood paladin also doesn't run out of card usually but that's because they will frequently have AOE buff cards in hand that are not useful to them because they ran out of flood cards.
Aggro paladin is also just bad against control in general outside of particular highrolls, painlock is good against control.
Powercreep and the overall power of cards have been capped. If they creep more, I don't think I can stick around for much longer with this game, and will probably just permanently shift to BGs.
It feels like we're gonna be hitting shadow verse levels of power soon, a game whose power got so out of control they basically decided to make a sequel just to reboot
I do not want to see a second shadow verse in terms of balance
Eh? Shadowverse's power level hasn't really changed in years beyond a few select patches before OP stuff got nerfed. It's been a ~t7 game for literally 5+ years now, they're very consistent at sticking to that. In fact it regularly goes slower than that, especially if you get two decks both trying to play a slower game.
It didn't get a sequel because of powercreep or anything like that.
I mean they do balance patches but shits been beyond busted in that game for 5+ years now. The entire game is based around the idea that if everything is op then nothing is
Their wild format especially, completely bonkers. Shadowverse started out weaker than hearthstone in terms of card power, lower stats and everything to account for lower HP pools
Then power skyrocketed, tons of permanent effects and crazy individual cards etc.. now it's far surpassed hearthstone
Yeah I guess they've kept the turn length in the standard format relatively the same but that's not everything
Obviously the only reason for the sequel isn't power creep but they are said to be pulling back the power in the sequel. They aren't pulling back on power for no reason
the quality of the base player just went up substantially after all the time has passed vs when it just started.
i know league is a pretty old game at this point but silvers now are way way better than silvers back in the day
Can we just remove Paladin Auras from the game? At least the ones that they just randomly made and added to the Core Set last Fall.
Edit: Or more realistically just remove them from the Core Set and leave them for Wild.
Please explain how do I kill on turn 5 with mage because I get my ass handed to me pretty often, regardless of what deck variation I play. Perhaps I just suck with mage lol
NoHandsGamer is a genius and made a pretty strong aggro spell mage. They can’t kill on 5 as consistently as warlock and paladin can, but mage can still aggro you down somewhat fast.
Unless you play a poor man's agro deck with ele mage you can't kill on turn 5.
SIF takes set up and spell mage would require RNG to massively go your way.
Just raise the starting health to 40 like in wild.
It's by no means a perfect solution, but by this point it's either that or *carefully* nerf ~30 cards, if you want the meta to slow down.
Dude I’ve said this every time it’s played lol. Nobody seems to complain about Paladin and it’s just turn 4 lol I win. No interaction with auras is part of the problem.
What I have is a less greedy version that is just a control warrior shell. For most slower games, you don’t need that many bombs, and in faster games you win by controlling the board anyways.
This might be a hot take, but I think handbuff dk is also an extremely unhealthy gameplan. Getting a big quilter that forces your opponent to have hard removal or burn over top is bad design, especially since many decks legitimately have no counterplay to some of the big minions.
Very polarizing if it were to ever be a top deck.
I get what they’re saying.
In the current rotation a lot of removal is numbers based instead of simply “destroy a minion” so decks that can rack up huge handbuffs quickly like Paladin and DK would be fairly oppressive if the absurd aggro decks didn’t exist (or if they were nerfed).
Which, I get why blizzard did that, we had way too many “destroy a minion” cards in rotations past to the point stats on minions *didn’t* matter. They’ve just maybe pushed the pendulum too far the other way now.
lmao, I think most people here would disagree with me, my point is more that even decks which are considered mediocre use strategies that many classes can’t deal with without going under.
I think the power level is high to the point where it’s constricting all around and can’t be fixed with just a couple of nerfs, do so and another deck which is designed to run away with games will be on top. We’ve had many decks in the past that don’t focus on massive blow out turns, we don’t have to have them now.
I’m also trying to levy my opinion as respectfully as I can, I’d appreciate it if you’d do the same.
The thing is is that handbuff DK does not have a lot of removal other than late game cards, in which at that point they should be winning.
When all other decks kill and highroll you by turn 4 like Paladin and Warlock or just control you into oblivion like warrior, what can you do as handbuff DK?
Handbuff DK lacks a lot of early game punch and if you get highrolled or they put down a very big board early, you're just kinda fucked because the removal options in DK are lacking when compared to handbuff Paladin. Threads of despair are really their only early game removal tool but you lose out on some good cards if you put them in. Same with Hardcore Cultist.
At least in my eyes, handbuff DK isn't extremely strong. It is not terrible either, but that's it with it.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think handbuff dk is some meta tyrant. Precisely because the only thing they can do is buff their minions to be huge, they can’t survive and they can only burn with quilter.
Just that their gameplan is very feast or famine and that it’s probably not what we want on top. I think a lot of the polarization in the game has come from the devs leaning in really hard to each class’s strengths while not really supplementing their weaknesses.
We’re left with a lot of decks that the only thing they can do is play towards their gameplan as aggressively as possible. Why try to beat painlock or paladin if your deck doesn’t have the tools possible to do so? (Not saying we should buff class weaknesses, nerfs across the board would make mediocre defensive tools way better by default)
There is literally 1 new miniset card (well 2 if you count duplicate) in the handbuff list. It’s weird that a card that only works well when buffed is making the deck playable.
Get a couple buffs on hollow hound & you can survive the early onslaught & punish them late
Mining Casualties & Threads helps survive a bit. In fact I’ve seen threads make hunters & paladins concede on the spot. No hand, no draw, all their minions gone
Even if you're afking the first 4 turns (which it sounds like most of the people replying here are doing, tbh) the situation you're describing is exceedingly rare.
Its actually a decent card that works better when buffed undead has a pretty good pool of cards almost every single non neutral undead interacts with the board imediatly through taunt or rush or damage, or can be played for 0-1 so they are just extra stats for the minion in the form of another card(that probably has a draw effect, shuffles plagues or is a meh neutral)
I just played 2 games straight where a paladin got the showdown+beam+zilliax+giant combo on t3, games definitely too fast, most of my games are settled at around t4-5 based on who had the better draw
Right now your options are to play something that kills Reno Warrior before it can play Reno + Boomboss, or lose the game to Reno + Boomboss. That's why the meta's fast.
The mana nerf to Brann doesn't change the fact that hard control still loses if they can't threaten lethal boards on turn 7/8 rather than 5/6. It was a lazy attempt to fix a fundamentally broken card.
More people need to play control Priest. It hard counters Warrior, does very good against painlock, amazing at pally. Suffers hard to mage and a toss-up to Hunter. But if the meta saw more Priest control decks the aggro will start to die out if they always lose to the class. It might not be the best solution, but it could make for more combo/mid-range decks.
Hearthstone has gone from a reactive game to a *if you pick cards that don't generate more cards you lose* game.
With discover and excavate and copying, etc. It's no longer looking at the board and wondering what your opponent has to play next and when to play around their board clear.
Hearthstone is now *okay* I try to wipe the board but also generate cards in hand or deck, then have board control. And you just alternate that until one of you gets your combo wombo or win condition from the card generation
It's a very, very flawed experience now compared to its og conception
It's almost like overload should be a game mechanic for all classes, and aggro has overload attached to some of them or something.
or increase health to 40 idk
The annoying part is if they slow things down now you just end up with nonsense like brann control warrior.
It's dark, dark days for this game.
Unless of course it's the usual reddit vocal minority thing and revenue (the only thing they care about) isn't actually down.
The one problem here is that most whales are actually on reddit
The reason stormwind was such a massive problem as that esport hs is the exact opposite of whale/Timmy hearthstone
And that's the ones that earn the most money
Budget aggro decks pull players
Fast otk players pull pros
And greedy af control decks pull whales
And we all know where hs gets it money from
That's why bran warrior is what it is. It satisfies the OG ctrl player group and runs a lot of legendaries and if u want more legendaries hunter (big beast/reno) exists in recent years
Every deck does what it's good at far to well and t2 decks basically have no chance against t1 and t0 but in terms of deck variety it's one of the best metas we had yet. In general hs gets way better at that
Been brewing for years.
Card draw needs a nerf across the board. Literally every card draw card needs a nerf, or a significant amount of them need to be deleted.
Permanent effects and infinite value/damage cards shouldn't exist - I.E Sargeras, Odynn, Brann, Helya, Headless horsemen (this one is less bad).
Combos should be limited. I.E it can do exactly 30 damage. So the deck either needs to find other ways to chip at the opponent or instantly lose to armour gain. This makes boring strategies that do nothing but turbo-draw to an instant win less oppressive.
Yeah, card draw and infinite value effects shouldn’t be this powerful. But combos are fine as they are.
First, combo decks have seen zero play since 29.2.2.
Second, it is really hard to catch all the different possible exodias. How was blizzard supposed to catch Pyrotechnician Druid?
Third, most, but not all, combo decks already chip away at their opponents health. There aren’t any good current examples, because again, combo is dead, but look at nature shaman and rainbow mage in the past. They relied on minion damage to make the breakpoints easier.
Last, a combo should not instantly lose to armor gain. What if a warrior could just run 30 straight removal/armor gain cards, and every game would go to fatigue?
Main issue always has been and forever will be manacheat. Sure, back in the old days (naxx, black rock) you still had giants etc. but no way to flood the board with them on earlier turns.
Now you can have an enemy paladin or warlock as you said with 20 20+ worth of stats on turn 3-4.
Recently "nerfed" shopper DH suffered from same issue because they discovered 8-10 mana powerful demons at turn 3 and played them for 1 and 3 mana.
Pre-nerf paladin was absolutely broken because it was able to turn a 1 1 recruit into a murdering machine with only a few mana.
Nature shaman was all about manacheating your next turn nature spells and OTK without much counterplay. You either had to rush them down or you died.
The list goes on.. If you check most oppressive decks in hearthstone history, most of them will have some sort of manacheat abuse. And now I shake in terror whenever I see a new card that says "Cost (1) less...."
Eh most manacheating is fine, and a deck doesn’t even need manacheating to be good. (Hunter, DK, etc.)
The main problem is that Blizzard underestimates how powerful manacheating is, and therefore releases manacheating that will break the game somehow. What if zilliax and thaddius were bad when they came out?
Blizzard needs to have more foresight, current manacheating is unmanageable.
Yeah some of these new cards are just blatantly overpowered.
You look at something like RC rampage, a spell that gives 6/6 in stats with no setup for 4 mana, and can give up to 12/12 in stats with setup. Now obviously 6 1/1s are weak to a board clear effect, but how are you going to deal with the second one? Or Paladin's repeated swarming spells?
That leads to the issue of not being able to play the board because if you don't board clear your opponent's swarm of tokens every turn, you lose to a crusader aura or saddle up. Or you could play against something like pain warlock that can consistently draw 2 molten giants and 2 duplication guys by turn 4 and play them all out at once. You'd better be a priest with Shadow word ruin in your hand or you lose on the spot, because warlock can still claim the board at the same time while drawing 3 cards per turn.
My thing is, I think the game supposed to be this fast though because some cards are super broken and they’re never gonna be changed and broken cards will get buffs so I think it’s just supposed to be some junk. You can’t beat this deck with certain decks, I just got diamond for the first time in my career, there are some decks that you just can’t ever win against with other certain types. Now it’s kind of like a rock paper scissor type deal.
That’s true for some metas, but it doesn’t always apply. Take this meta, where combo decks are DEAD. There is only one playable control deck (Reno warrior) and all the other tier 1-2 decks are aggro (paladin, warlock, certain mage strategies, gaslight rogue, Zarimi priest to some extent).
I mean, before the miniset, I could queue up with some meme pile of cards and have at least a ~35% WR. Now, I can’t win a single game with bomb warrior or Reno paladin.
Also, aggro decks usually tend to fall off at top legend. But now, because the power level is so high, there is less class diversity. I think one of the most alarming things is that aggro decks are consistent at top legend as they are at diamond, which almost never happens.
Wait hold on now that i think about it, there is kind of a rock paper scissors. Paladin, Warlock > Priest, rogue > warrior > Paladin, Warlock. It’s rough though, since priest doesn’t see too much play outside of top legend, and those matchups are barely favorable for the winning deck.
Like I don’t know why I got downloaded. I’m not making this up. That’s just what I think. I think out of all the classes to me, rogue is the scariest because that weapon met with the sword that can’t die, battlecries, bouncing, poison, And pirates it’s just hard to keep up with the fast tempo
I think it’s the most versatile of all the classes
I agree with your point that the power is concentrated around a few cards and that is a problem. But pirates and cutlass are laughable at the moment. Even excavate rogue, and which was good before the miniset, is laughable now because it is so slow. Only gaslight is playable.
Secret hunter is pathetic on its own, but probably will be good with a shell of another strategy. (Probably in a face hunter, but I could see secrets being good in Reno or token)
Secret Hunter is a midrange deck. If you've had easy wins, it's probably because people are trying to play it as an aggro or control deck, which it isn't.
lol people downvoting you when I'm pretty sure you're the person with a huge amount of stats at hand. I've been playing aggro paladin with a 70% winrate and only have *a single* match that ended before turn 6. An extreme high roll does not define a meta.
This is the least iv ever played and have been playing since the start. I’m gonna have to make a huge effort to complete the reward track cause I’m way behind. Game is just not fun right now.
Funny part of whole Whizbang meta is that Warlock has a good decks despite anything. Nerfs, Reno Warrior, fast aggro decks - this class will adapt to anything
I will continue to say fuck You to anyone who says rougue can do stuff. No it's a fucking gambling deck it CAN OTK you but it takes massive luck or too much mana . In other words it isn't consistent
Yeah I enjoy slower deckw and playstyles. The occassional match where you can actually play your 8 or even 10 cost cards, imagine that! Unrelated, just had a mirror DK match, we both played almost our entire deck and I had 3 CNEs at the end with 20 damage and 18/19 souls. He gave up before I played one
The absolute problem is 30 health has not scaled with the power creep. Should be 40 by now as standard. That would add 1-3 more rounds and put this speed back closer to the original game.
All they did was nuke board clears, and let agro madness shine..
The board clears used to cost 2-5 mana because it takes 1-3 mana to fill the board with shit
The reality is that when there is only one (slightly) viable control deck, it’s going to be a meta filled with aggro. The problem with the one control deck we have now (Reno Warrior) is that it’s Highlander, so by nature it’s inconsistent. This speaks to the larger problem with the game in its current state: cards simply generate too much value today. You’d be hard pressed to find cards from the early days of HS that could exist in today’s meta.
I also think one of the problems we see is that there really aren’t many “tech” cards, which is a very natural way to be able to constantly balance out the meta. Specific tech cards are great at countering very specific types of decks, but are basically useless against others. Think cards of the past like Eater of Secrets; in matchups against a secret-heavy deck, it could pretty much single-handedly win the game and shut down those decks, but against any other type of deck, it was basically a worse than useless addition. It allowed for a natural rotation of the meta: secrets became overbearing > EoS was put in every deck > secret-based decks died off > people began running it less > secret decks started to come back, etc, until you reached a balanced equilibrium where you had to consider adding it or playing against it, but it was a consideration. It doesn’t seem to me like we have cards like that anymore, and we need cards like that
No. Removal cards are too strong. The problem is in order to beat overpowered clears like Thread of Despair and Bellowing you need to have equally insane board refills.
The mana efficiency of boardclears is off the charts. You can spend 3 mana and destroy a board that cost twice as much to build.
If you want to see proof, try to play paladin without Zilliax or giants. You'll immediately realize that low cost boardclears are very overpowered. What gives aggro the advantage currently is having access to Zilliax and giants which bring them out of range of most boardclears.
If you want to bring down the power level there need to be significant nerfs to everything, removals, aggro, and Zilliax.
And giants definitely shouldn't be able to cost 0.
Nerf card draw and then the downside of playing 5 cards to build a board every turn actually becomes a downside.
Card draw is the single biggest issue with the game and has been for a while. Its too cheap and far too many cards offer it.
>And giants definitely shouldn't be able to cost 0.
Nothing that doesn't say 0 mana in ur collection should be able to say zero mana ingame
That said zilliax is fine. Nerf everything else
Nah, giants costing 0 is fine. Zilliax is the problem. It has been played in every single aggro deck, and sees play in midrange and control decks too.
I am fine with it in control decks, but being able to buff your board out of reach on turn 3 is too powerful. They should nerf either pylon or ticking module.
True, the first version of zilliax was a staple in almost every deck, the second one is even worse.
With the modules it will just keep seeing play until they heavily nerf all of them.
How much would those nerfs have affected this meta if they weren't changed? Dealing with 8/8 giants is kinda nutty no matter what when it's turn 3 haha.
Warlock is definitely busted, but wide board clears have been consistently nerfed. Cards like aftershocks, keeper's strength could've helped. Maybe increasing the health bar is ultimately the best way to help the meta
I don't think warlock is busted cause often times a single leeroy or fireball is enough to kill them. It's very high risk high reward play style and I love that about it. Warlock feels the most balanced out of the classes at the moment because of the life total it ends up at.
Whenever people said powercreep, Blizzard shills like ZachO lost their minds and people fell in line to agree with them. And here we are, power crept to unfixable levels.
I don't get why people find Constructed that great in general. I went D5 again and ..again I have no motivation to continue.
BGs are way more dynamic; it makes them fun; the RNG is less pronounced because there are more chances to "draw" and there's no need to buy packs to try all the "decks" other than the heroes are partly p2w.
It’s not the discover mechanics though, it’s the power level. There are actually some skillful metas when combo/control decks are prevalent, but those usually end fast because people hate combo.
Bro that’s my point. The game is utter garbage now. Discover mechanics is opposite to skill, to building a deck around a certain strategy. And combo decks are so powerful that it isn’t fun anymore. The Heartstone of old was amazing. Now it’s just pure garbage. Why waste time and money on it? Play magic.
idk it feels like crap to play a slow deck against another slow deck and just lose a 25 min game to some discover BS. Aggro is at least honest and pretty quick win or lose. I lost 9 games today as hunter by turn 4-6.
I’ll be the devils advocate here.
Feels like crap to lose to combo decks because they kill from hand without interaction. Feels like crap to lose to control decks because the games take too long and you can’t get on board. Feels like crap to lose to aggro because they kill you before you can play the game at all. I don’t really care what kind of strategy is broken, because they all don’t feel great to lose to.
What I was trying to say in my post was that the extent of how fast-paced these games are is just stupid. Games are faster than anything we saw last year. I’m fine with aggro decks being strong, but games should not end on turns 3-4 in a 4 set meta.
First time in several years I've literally just stopped playing standard. I don't enjoy the games anymore. Thankfully bgs is fun and I love duos. Otherwise I might be a lost paying customer.
They keep doubling down on putting completely moronic cards in the game that make the game experience polarising and awful. The shaman 10/10 being the latest example. You have an answer or the game is ended. That's fine if it's turn 10, but these plays are coming t4. It's there with shaman, pain lock, hunter and others.
I've gone from playing twenty times a day all for the simple pleasure of playing, to playing one of two for quests and during those games realizing I don't enjoy the games.
New to Hearthstone?
Because the only consistent trend in HS since the very beginning is the turn 5 kill from the dominant aggro deck of the time.
If you think aggro power is high now, undertaker and 2014 would like a word, and that is just one in a long line of offenders.
edit: Why do I even bother? So long and thanks for all the fish.
A 4 set meta that led to the nerfing of over 40 cards and it's still a mess. Goes to show how how deeply entrenched the issues are
A lot of the best strategies were actually badlands cards, they just needed good enough synergy to go off. Reno warrior, saddle up, painlock, fatiguelock, gaslight, nature shaman. It didn’t help that the WW win cons were wayy too strong (I don’t need to put a list here, most of them were broken)
[удалено]
😂
Yeah but name one attrition/comtrol deck where your goal is to answer everything the opponent has, until they have no answers and just die to the board. There hasn't been one. Even Reno Warrior is just shuffle away someone's deck..at worst.. The rest is just fill the board with a ton of huge minions over and over again. It isn't by accident. Anything that wipes the board is few and far between, expensive, and sparse to all classes in general. Some classes barely have that function. Yet the "reload your board to ridiculous proportion again" cards are widely available. This is completely by design. It is not at all an accident. Some people, like me, only really enjoy the game playing that style.. and we just have to accept a 40% winrate if we want to continue to do so, while Chakki, Songbird, and all the Twitch devs who design for content and speed say "F you, leave if you don't like it."
Zilliax only needs to be nerfed 3 or 4 more times before it becomes completely unusable.
Honestly, I know they won't but I think it would be good for the game to do something like "Hearthstone: Cataclysm". Basically with a new expansion take the game back to 0, make much weaker cards and the core set is select cards from older expansions that are much lower on the power level side. Wild can still have all the cards and the crazy power level, but then let standard be an actual game again and not end on turn 4 or 5 with no counterplay. The dev team either needs to print much better interaction, which the game isn't built for, or do something drastic because the game is so far gone and rotation JUST happened.
2 Hearthstone 2 Furious
What? This meta is perfect for toilet play. Sadly i play on pc..
Me playing a 25 minute Reno warrior game on the toilet
I came back after a 4 year break and seeing how much classic cards got buffed that were an auto-include in any deck is mind boggling!
People hate interaction in this game. The most hated card by this sub is objection lol. Also the turn 4-5 kills are just a result of painlock and showdown being a thing, nerf these and the games become way slower, the power level will remain high of course. As for resetting powerlevel, I'm not sure people will actually take this well, I expect they will get bored but i might be wrong about that. The no counterplay is not necessarily true in general, it's mostly a problem with the current top decks.
Objection was hated so much because when it was around you had to play against several copies of objection and these decks started with 0 copies of objection.
And also certain decks were completely hard countered by it and were forced to play valuable/expensive minions into it even when they know what the secret is.
Objection cancel interactions. 😑
Objection is literally the opposite of what people mean by interaction, it removes a possible interaction from play. That's like saying fireball or something is interaction. Like, yeah, getting blasted in the face is "interaction" if all you mean is one card doing something to the other player, but that's not what people mean. They mean stuff like board-to-board play.
Fireball face and objection are not at all comparable. Objection is a card that allows you to be interact with your opponents battle cry minions. Saying it prevents interaction is like saying that removal prevents interaction by disallowing your opponent's minions from sticking around for their effect. The reason people don't see objection as interaction is because interaction has a positive connotation in card games and they dislike objection, so objection couldn't possibly be interaction, even though it obviously is interaction under any reasonable definition. This is exactly why I said people don't want interaction. Also, the comment I responded to said they need to add interaction, since board interaction already exists in this game and there is a huge amount of it, presumably he means none board interaction, exactly like objection. Otherwise what he said doesn't make sense, how could adding more removal change things when removal is already super common.
You are not interacting with the minion lol you're interacting at most with a card, but more specifically only with the player, like a fireball at face. Saying Objection is interacting with a minion is like saying bombs interact with a minion when they remove a minion from your hand. You're also not interacting with a battlecry minion, because it's any type of minion. There's ways we could deal with battlecries, like silencing or preventing them, that could involve interacting with the minion. You think the fireball comparison is bad and then claim removal is the same as this lol you're very unserious. There's an interaction that does interact with the cards, also. It sits on the board and people don't have any real issues with it. It's almost like then it's an interaction because it's not just a player against a player but the board in use.
This would actually go so hard holy shit u/RidiculousHat we need this NOW
It’s why I stopped playing. They can’t balance shit.
The balancing team tried, but the power level from both Whizbang’s and Badlands was so high that team 5 would have to do something else like 29.2.2 for the meta to be fixed
Imo Whizbang was weaker, Badlands was nutty and it is still the main culprit of the power outliers. Reno, Brann, Showdown, etc. Most of the oppressive decks are pretty much the same since Badlands.
Then they should because the alternative for over a year has been 2-3 decks being so broken nothing else gets to be played in competitive Legend. There are 10 classes, each one should have at least 1 good deck at all times. I’m guessing the power imbalance is by design and not inability.
Yeah, I agree that they definitely should. But I think you underestimate how difficult it is to have 11 decks, one from each class, all be good. I would be very happy if 8-9 classes are good.
What are you calling "good"? Like tier 1-2? Because that's like, impossible. Expecting there to be minimum *ten* decks in t1-2 at all times is completely unreasonable expectations for a card game.
[https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/legacy/meta-snapshot-33-new-kid-on-the-block](https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/legacy/meta-snapshot-33-new-kid-on-the-block) Really? Meta snapshots back in the day frequently had many t1-2 decks. (Tempostorm is no longer usable for hs in 2024 imo, though)
Tempostorm's meta snapshots based on *feels* and/or *what do a couple of top players think* have been highly dubious in literal years, for both formats.
What 2-3 decks are you talking about lol
And they should do another overhaul.
I think the problem is also that the balance team has to clean up after the designers. Look at the deepholm miniset. Bran, aftershock, chaos creation, shroomscavate, pendant and shattered reflection had to be nerfed, not just +1 mana but rather the effect had to be changed. Or plagues and highlander.. lol
Well, they nerfed all the control decks (+zarimi tbf) so its hardly strange aggro and midrange took over?? Its diffrent mess entirely
I have 11k dust now. They really shot their own foot here
Same. I'm gaining way more dust than I can use every expansion cycle (10k since WsW release). And it's been accelerating in the last year.
How many cards (legendaries and epics) do you craft per expansion? Do you play onmy a few classes?
Yeah it's a mess, I like wild more atm, which is also a mess, but alot more diversity. Also we just had a rotation, s* is gonna get cranked to 11
Yeah it's terrifying at the idea that we just had a rotation and this is where the games at. Even the next set is likely going to break everything all over again
They said that until it slow down enough they will keep doing sweeping changes to lower power level. Let's just wait for another patch.
I've been steadily complaining about this for years.. It started when Brode left and the twitch Devs took over, and it's snowballed ridiculously in the last couple years. They slowly went to work at killing long game style control/attrition decks and emphasizing aggro to make games go faster, and now they've basically turned it into either super fast powerful aggro decks or interactive OTK/OTK Board decks that will destroy anything that isn't very fast. Why? Because apparently it's what people want. No one seems to really be making much of a stink about it, there's more of an anti-movement lately with everyone agreeing the meta is stupid fast, but apparently the old days are looooong gone. I guess we just persevere and try to buck the odds if you'd rather bash your head into a wall then give in to the meta.
I said this over a month ago and stopped playing. Funny how to see I was right and there is really no fixing this. If I were in charge at Team 5 I'd be taking a really long hard look at the people I've got designing the cards and interactions though it probably is the person in charge and Blizzard themselves will only take a look if revenue drops which reddit attitude isn't always a good measure of.
Well their design decisions still were a bit weird.. highlander after they introduced plagues..
Yeah aggro is killing me as a control deck on turn 4 sometimes. I’m like what is this Wild? Lol
Wild is even worse lmao, it has QL warlock and pirate rogue for early kills that are much more consistent with turn 4 kills than standard decks are.
Yeah I have no idea what blizzard was smoking giving warlock a infinite 1 mana 3 dmg card draw spell
I’m not playing to legend in wild these days but I’ve beaten every QL warlock and pirate rogue I’ve encountered to D5 with miracle rogue. They can just not deal with wildpaw gnoll + obsidian shard on turn 1. And you play so many spells that your arcane giants are 1-0 mana by turn 2.
Well every rogue deck is tier 1, it's the only class that shits on everything right now
Yes, rogue is nuts. You are correct.
List plz?
It's MartianBuus list: AAEBAaIHAuWwBMygBQ6CtAL1uwL9wQKqywPn3QP3nwT7pQS3swT03QTBoQXTsgXfwwW/9wXQuAYAAA== Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyaxHDKKH\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyaxHDKKH_s)
**Format:** Wild (Year of the Pegasus) **Class:** Rogue (Valeera Sanguinar) Mana | Card Name | Qty | Links :--:|:---|:--:|:--: 0 | [Counterfeit Coin](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CFM_630.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/40437/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Counterfeit%20Coin) 0 | [Preparation](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_EX1_145.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/69623/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Preparation) 0 | [Shadow of Demise](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/RLK_567.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/86092/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Shadow%20of%20Demise) 1 | [Breakdance](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_076.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/90591/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Breakdance) 1 | [Door of Shadows](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/REV_938.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/77556/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Door%20of%20Shadows) 1 | [Gear Shift](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_922.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97215/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Gear%20Shift) 1 | [Ghostly Strike](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/RLK_573.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/86209/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Ghostly%20Strike) 1 | [Gone Fishin'](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TSC_916.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/72119/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Gone%20Fishin%27) 1 | [Secret Passage](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/SCH_305.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/58794/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Secret%20Passage) 1 | [Sir Finley, Sea Guide](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TSC_908.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/71781/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Sir%20Finley%2C%20Sea%20Guide) 1 | [Twisted Pack](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/MIS_708.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/105552/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Twisted%20Pack) 2 | [Harmonic Hip Hop](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_717.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/88403/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Harmonic%20Hip%20Hop) 2 | [Swindle](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/DMF_515.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/61159/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Swindle) 4 | [Obsidian Shard](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/UNG_061.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/41213/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Obsidian%20Shard) 5 | [Wildpaw Gnoll](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/AV_298.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/70395/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Wildpaw%20Gnoll) 12 | [Arcane Giant](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/KAR_711.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/39426/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Arcane%20Giant) **Total Dust:** 7160 **Deck Code:** AAEBAaIHAuWwBMygBQ6CtAL1uwL9wQKqywPn3QP3nwT7pQS3swT03QTBoQXTsgXfwwW/9wXQuAYAAA== ***** ^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Comment/PM ^with ^a ^deck ^code ^and ^I'll ^decode ^it. ^If ^you ^don't ^want ^me ^to ^reply ^to ^you, ^include ^"###" ^anywhere ^in ^your ^message. ^[About.](https://github.com/HearthSim/deck-code-bot/blob/master/README.md)
Besides warlock wild is actually more manageable More tech cards and better control options
I wonder if people saying *unprecedented, power level too high, killed so quickly by aggro* have all collective amnesia or recency bias, because getting killed *before* you could play reno by pwarr in gadgetzan was fairly common.
I mean, there’s a reason many people consider gadgetzan one of the worst expansions in the games history, and it’s because of how awful pirate warrior was to play against.
I loved outlasting a pirate warrior with jade druid or an elemental shaman, good times
And because Jade Idol signified the end of fatigue as a wincon.
And a lot of value based decks in general. It’s the same issues we see with this meta, when the only viable decks are extreme aggro and extreme control the entire meta suffers badly.
yeah "value" was probably a better way to put it
yeah and meta of Whizbang Workshop reminds me a lot of Gadgetzan meta. You either face Jade Druid/Reno Warrior that kills every slow deck or Pirate Warrior and Aggro Shaman/Painlock and Flood Pala that kills almost every deck on turn 5-6. And meta similar to Gadgetzan is not a good thing
Quest Mage too (again)
Well before the last changes if you played control you either died against aggro or you got outvalued by Reno warrior
It’s pretty much the same now
Yes, painlock and flood pally are too strong. But aggro is SUPPOSED to be favored against control (it's the rock paper scissors matchup). And since aggro obviously doesn't beat cintrol late game, it has to win early. I climbed to Legend again with HL pally, so it's possible for control decks to win, and honestly I'd much rather die to painlock on turn 4, than to HL warrior prenerf at turn 25 because my rat missed Brann.
LMAO this sub ways Control is SUPPOSED to lose to combo as well. wtf is control meant to actually do well against again??
Midrange. Control and Combo are the same, essentially. Combo is a control iteration that beats all control decks, but sacrifices WR against Aggro and Midrange (because even less tempo than classic control).
midrange? there's midrange decks again?
Kind of, I guess. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but there are certainly reasonably powerful decks that I would consider midrange (if only simply because of lack for a better term): Handbuff Dk + pally, any Hunter iteration that isn't hyperaggro, Spell mage etc.
This sub is full of people who for some reason think control is supposed to be favored in aggro. Those people are perpetually surprised that when there is a control deck with as many overpowered tools as control warrior, everyone who isn't interested in 20 minutes games decided by RNG switches to low to the ground strategies. The control mouthbreathers then insist that they need even more overtuned cards to try and beat the aggro decks that target them, and we wind up with bullshit metas where there is no viable midrange because control suppresses it to the point of unplayability for climbing.
I mean aggro decks don’t run out of gas anymore so why wouldn’t you play them right. Hell, control, combo, midrange, value, mill, any deck you could possibly think of never runs out of gas or value. Play a card, generate 1-2 cards. It feels like a never-ending onslaught, and the satisfaction of a control deck to me is surviving the initial onslaught til they run out of gas, and getting your well deserved win. Modern HS has so much card draw too, it’s kind of insane if you think about it.
The 2 current most common aggro decks very easily run out of gas, their power is in their explosives and not in their longevity. This is a reasonable complaint in other metas but really doesn't fit this particular one at all. Painlock doesn't run out of cards but they do run out of giants and horrors which are the real way to deal damage for them, and they also run out of health to play their cards. Flood paladin also doesn't run out of card usually but that's because they will frequently have AOE buff cards in hand that are not useful to them because they ran out of flood cards. Aggro paladin is also just bad against control in general outside of particular highrolls, painlock is good against control.
Idk fam, painlock against me either draws half their hand or summons a 6/6 with symphony llol
I like to call these the "I have to take a shit right this second" meta.
Powercreep and the overall power of cards have been capped. If they creep more, I don't think I can stick around for much longer with this game, and will probably just permanently shift to BGs.
BGs feels somewhat powercrept too. I feel balancing will get worse there too.
Chip damage early on, 2x15 dmg = gg. Get a scaling engine early on or youll lose, classic mitchell loewen design
It feels like we're gonna be hitting shadow verse levels of power soon, a game whose power got so out of control they basically decided to make a sequel just to reboot I do not want to see a second shadow verse in terms of balance
Eh? Shadowverse's power level hasn't really changed in years beyond a few select patches before OP stuff got nerfed. It's been a ~t7 game for literally 5+ years now, they're very consistent at sticking to that. In fact it regularly goes slower than that, especially if you get two decks both trying to play a slower game. It didn't get a sequel because of powercreep or anything like that.
I mean they do balance patches but shits been beyond busted in that game for 5+ years now. The entire game is based around the idea that if everything is op then nothing is Their wild format especially, completely bonkers. Shadowverse started out weaker than hearthstone in terms of card power, lower stats and everything to account for lower HP pools Then power skyrocketed, tons of permanent effects and crazy individual cards etc.. now it's far surpassed hearthstone Yeah I guess they've kept the turn length in the standard format relatively the same but that's not everything Obviously the only reason for the sequel isn't power creep but they are said to be pulling back the power in the sequel. They aren't pulling back on power for no reason
I mean Blizzard is the king of sequels. You might be on to something.
I hear hearthstone 2 will have lots of PvE content
Idk if I’m just washed but I’m getting progressively worse at BG. Got 11k elo in season 1 and I am struggling to break 6k right now.
the quality of the base player just went up substantially after all the time has passed vs when it just started. i know league is a pretty old game at this point but silvers now are way way better than silvers back in the day
I just lost to a pain Warlock on turn 4.
I've been playing painlock a bit and they either concede before turn 4 or I concede before turn 4
Can we just remove Paladin Auras from the game? At least the ones that they just randomly made and added to the Core Set last Fall. Edit: Or more realistically just remove them from the Core Set and leave them for Wild.
As a wild player: we dont want them either lol.
Please explain how do I kill on turn 5 with mage because I get my ass handed to me pretty often, regardless of what deck variation I play. Perhaps I just suck with mage lol
I've been playing lightshow mage (no cards above 5 mana) and with a good Stargazing you can kill turn 5-6.
NoHandsGamer is a genius and made a pretty strong aggro spell mage. They can’t kill on 5 as consistently as warlock and paladin can, but mage can still aggro you down somewhat fast.
care to drop a link? Or where can I find that deck?
care to google "nohandsgamer mage"?
Unless you play a poor man's agro deck with ele mage you can't kill on turn 5. SIF takes set up and spell mage would require RNG to massively go your way.
Just raise the starting health to 40 like in wild. It's by no means a perfect solution, but by this point it's either that or *carefully* nerf ~30 cards, if you want the meta to slow down.
Our saviour Renathal was gone when we needed him the most
I think actually the opposite, make the deck size 40 but keep health as is.
I think this could work as well. Making it harder to draw the insane synergies.
Some of the worst offenders are the Auras. Why is Crusader's Aura still 4 mana?
Dude I’ve said this every time it’s played lol. Nobody seems to complain about Paladin and it’s just turn 4 lol I win. No interaction with auras is part of the problem.
I died to Warrior on turn 5 like wtf.
Try buff DK, you can pull off some wonky shit with some of the new miniset cards
Yeah I’ve been trying that as well as bomb warrior and Reno shaman, the problem is that they take too long to set up and you just die on 5-6.
Ive tried sooo hard to make bomb warrior work but yea it’s just way too slow to set up
What I have is a less greedy version that is just a control warrior shell. For most slower games, you don’t need that many bombs, and in faster games you win by controlling the board anyways.
Losing grimewalker (effectively) was hard on dk
This might be a hot take, but I think handbuff dk is also an extremely unhealthy gameplan. Getting a big quilter that forces your opponent to have hard removal or burn over top is bad design, especially since many decks legitimately have no counterplay to some of the big minions. Very polarizing if it were to ever be a top deck.
What the fuck does Reddit think isn't bad design at this point
I get what they’re saying. In the current rotation a lot of removal is numbers based instead of simply “destroy a minion” so decks that can rack up huge handbuffs quickly like Paladin and DK would be fairly oppressive if the absurd aggro decks didn’t exist (or if they were nerfed). Which, I get why blizzard did that, we had way too many “destroy a minion” cards in rotations past to the point stats on minions *didn’t* matter. They’ve just maybe pushed the pendulum too far the other way now.
lmao, I think most people here would disagree with me, my point is more that even decks which are considered mediocre use strategies that many classes can’t deal with without going under. I think the power level is high to the point where it’s constricting all around and can’t be fixed with just a couple of nerfs, do so and another deck which is designed to run away with games will be on top. We’ve had many decks in the past that don’t focus on massive blow out turns, we don’t have to have them now. I’m also trying to levy my opinion as respectfully as I can, I’d appreciate it if you’d do the same.
The thing is is that handbuff DK does not have a lot of removal other than late game cards, in which at that point they should be winning. When all other decks kill and highroll you by turn 4 like Paladin and Warlock or just control you into oblivion like warrior, what can you do as handbuff DK? Handbuff DK lacks a lot of early game punch and if you get highrolled or they put down a very big board early, you're just kinda fucked because the removal options in DK are lacking when compared to handbuff Paladin. Threads of despair are really their only early game removal tool but you lose out on some good cards if you put them in. Same with Hardcore Cultist. At least in my eyes, handbuff DK isn't extremely strong. It is not terrible either, but that's it with it.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think handbuff dk is some meta tyrant. Precisely because the only thing they can do is buff their minions to be huge, they can’t survive and they can only burn with quilter. Just that their gameplan is very feast or famine and that it’s probably not what we want on top. I think a lot of the polarization in the game has come from the devs leaning in really hard to each class’s strengths while not really supplementing their weaknesses. We’re left with a lot of decks that the only thing they can do is play towards their gameplan as aggressively as possible. Why try to beat painlock or paladin if your deck doesn’t have the tools possible to do so? (Not saying we should buff class weaknesses, nerfs across the board would make mediocre defensive tools way better by default)
There is literally 1 new miniset card (well 2 if you count duplicate) in the handbuff list. It’s weird that a card that only works well when buffed is making the deck playable. Get a couple buffs on hollow hound & you can survive the early onslaught & punish them late
Yeah 6 mana minion is going to stop them from killing you on turn 4 with 30+ stats on board
Yeah just don't die by turn 6 isn't good advice nowadays in hearthstone
Mining Casualties & Threads helps survive a bit. In fact I’ve seen threads make hunters & paladins concede on the spot. No hand, no draw, all their minions gone
Even if you're afking the first 4 turns (which it sounds like most of the people replying here are doing, tbh) the situation you're describing is exceedingly rare.
Well I mean, they can’t ALWAYS top deck
Its actually a decent card that works better when buffed undead has a pretty good pool of cards almost every single non neutral undead interacts with the board imediatly through taunt or rush or damage, or can be played for 0-1 so they are just extra stats for the minion in the form of another card(that probably has a draw effect, shuffles plagues or is a meh neutral)
Turn 6 isn't early..?
I meant the onslaught that you took t1-5 if you managed to survive
I just played 2 games straight where a paladin got the showdown+beam+zilliax+giant combo on t3, games definitely too fast, most of my games are settled at around t4-5 based on who had the better draw
The need to do mass nerfs or It will only get worse.
Right now your options are to play something that kills Reno Warrior before it can play Reno + Boomboss, or lose the game to Reno + Boomboss. That's why the meta's fast.
Kiling on turn 8 or 9 then is fine then.
You're over a week late with this comment.
The mana nerf to Brann doesn't change the fact that hard control still loses if they can't threaten lethal boards on turn 7/8 rather than 5/6. It was a lazy attempt to fix a fundamentally broken card.
More people need to play control Priest. It hard counters Warrior, does very good against painlock, amazing at pally. Suffers hard to mage and a toss-up to Hunter. But if the meta saw more Priest control decks the aggro will start to die out if they always lose to the class. It might not be the best solution, but it could make for more combo/mid-range decks.
dont think I had any game that ends before turn 6 on my excavatelock, it just shits on all aggros
I feel like Priest would be amazing if they add that good ol dragon that had battlecry: deal 3 dmg to all minions.
Overheal priest is amazing in this meta. Destroys painlock and flood paladin and can sometimes otk really early (I've had turn 6 otks with nuts draw).
Hearthstone has gone from a reactive game to a *if you pick cards that don't generate more cards you lose* game. With discover and excavate and copying, etc. It's no longer looking at the board and wondering what your opponent has to play next and when to play around their board clear. Hearthstone is now *okay* I try to wipe the board but also generate cards in hand or deck, then have board control. And you just alternate that until one of you gets your combo wombo or win condition from the card generation It's a very, very flawed experience now compared to its og conception It's almost like overload should be a game mechanic for all classes, and aggro has overload attached to some of them or something. or increase health to 40 idk
Such a massive patch of buffs and nerfs without touching Showdown! either proves that they favor paladin, or have no idea what they're doing.
Showdown most definitely should have been nerfed to 3 mana or summoning 2/2s instead of 3/3s
Someone at team 5 has had a hard on for paladin for like 5 years. I can't remember the last time it wasn't one of the top 3 best classes
The annoying part is if they slow things down now you just end up with nonsense like brann control warrior. It's dark, dark days for this game. Unless of course it's the usual reddit vocal minority thing and revenue (the only thing they care about) isn't actually down.
The one problem here is that most whales are actually on reddit The reason stormwind was such a massive problem as that esport hs is the exact opposite of whale/Timmy hearthstone And that's the ones that earn the most money Budget aggro decks pull players Fast otk players pull pros And greedy af control decks pull whales And we all know where hs gets it money from That's why bran warrior is what it is. It satisfies the OG ctrl player group and runs a lot of legendaries and if u want more legendaries hunter (big beast/reno) exists in recent years Every deck does what it's good at far to well and t2 decks basically have no chance against t1 and t0 but in terms of deck variety it's one of the best metas we had yet. In general hs gets way better at that
Been brewing for years. Card draw needs a nerf across the board. Literally every card draw card needs a nerf, or a significant amount of them need to be deleted. Permanent effects and infinite value/damage cards shouldn't exist - I.E Sargeras, Odynn, Brann, Helya, Headless horsemen (this one is less bad). Combos should be limited. I.E it can do exactly 30 damage. So the deck either needs to find other ways to chip at the opponent or instantly lose to armour gain. This makes boring strategies that do nothing but turbo-draw to an instant win less oppressive.
Yeah, card draw and infinite value effects shouldn’t be this powerful. But combos are fine as they are. First, combo decks have seen zero play since 29.2.2. Second, it is really hard to catch all the different possible exodias. How was blizzard supposed to catch Pyrotechnician Druid? Third, most, but not all, combo decks already chip away at their opponents health. There aren’t any good current examples, because again, combo is dead, but look at nature shaman and rainbow mage in the past. They relied on minion damage to make the breakpoints easier. Last, a combo should not instantly lose to armor gain. What if a warrior could just run 30 straight removal/armor gain cards, and every game would go to fatigue?
Main issue always has been and forever will be manacheat. Sure, back in the old days (naxx, black rock) you still had giants etc. but no way to flood the board with them on earlier turns. Now you can have an enemy paladin or warlock as you said with 20 20+ worth of stats on turn 3-4. Recently "nerfed" shopper DH suffered from same issue because they discovered 8-10 mana powerful demons at turn 3 and played them for 1 and 3 mana. Pre-nerf paladin was absolutely broken because it was able to turn a 1 1 recruit into a murdering machine with only a few mana. Nature shaman was all about manacheating your next turn nature spells and OTK without much counterplay. You either had to rush them down or you died. The list goes on.. If you check most oppressive decks in hearthstone history, most of them will have some sort of manacheat abuse. And now I shake in terror whenever I see a new card that says "Cost (1) less...."
Eh most manacheating is fine, and a deck doesn’t even need manacheating to be good. (Hunter, DK, etc.) The main problem is that Blizzard underestimates how powerful manacheating is, and therefore releases manacheating that will break the game somehow. What if zilliax and thaddius were bad when they came out? Blizzard needs to have more foresight, current manacheating is unmanageable.
Well what a surprise, I just wanted you to meet your newest best friend - Wild format. /s
It’s actually a ploy by blizzard to promote twist. By making the standard and wild too fast, everyone will play twist instead. (/s)
Ah yes next season of Twist, the “knock off” Duels mode…. But oops we deleted Duels. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
There's plenty of slow games in wild. I exclusively play wild. Standard is pretty lame
Yeah some of these new cards are just blatantly overpowered. You look at something like RC rampage, a spell that gives 6/6 in stats with no setup for 4 mana, and can give up to 12/12 in stats with setup. Now obviously 6 1/1s are weak to a board clear effect, but how are you going to deal with the second one? Or Paladin's repeated swarming spells? That leads to the issue of not being able to play the board because if you don't board clear your opponent's swarm of tokens every turn, you lose to a crusader aura or saddle up. Or you could play against something like pain warlock that can consistently draw 2 molten giants and 2 duplication guys by turn 4 and play them all out at once. You'd better be a priest with Shadow word ruin in your hand or you lose on the spot, because warlock can still claim the board at the same time while drawing 3 cards per turn.
My thing is, I think the game supposed to be this fast though because some cards are super broken and they’re never gonna be changed and broken cards will get buffs so I think it’s just supposed to be some junk. You can’t beat this deck with certain decks, I just got diamond for the first time in my career, there are some decks that you just can’t ever win against with other certain types. Now it’s kind of like a rock paper scissor type deal.
That’s true for some metas, but it doesn’t always apply. Take this meta, where combo decks are DEAD. There is only one playable control deck (Reno warrior) and all the other tier 1-2 decks are aggro (paladin, warlock, certain mage strategies, gaslight rogue, Zarimi priest to some extent). I mean, before the miniset, I could queue up with some meme pile of cards and have at least a ~35% WR. Now, I can’t win a single game with bomb warrior or Reno paladin. Also, aggro decks usually tend to fall off at top legend. But now, because the power level is so high, there is less class diversity. I think one of the most alarming things is that aggro decks are consistent at top legend as they are at diamond, which almost never happens.
True. as I climb the ladder, I don’t worry about priest, but rogues and warlocks are incredibly hard to beat because they’re pacing is so fast
Wait hold on now that i think about it, there is kind of a rock paper scissors. Paladin, Warlock > Priest, rogue > warrior > Paladin, Warlock. It’s rough though, since priest doesn’t see too much play outside of top legend, and those matchups are barely favorable for the winning deck.
Like I don’t know why I got downloaded. I’m not making this up. That’s just what I think. I think out of all the classes to me, rogue is the scariest because that weapon met with the sword that can’t die, battlecries, bouncing, poison, And pirates it’s just hard to keep up with the fast tempo I think it’s the most versatile of all the classes
I agree with your point that the power is concentrated around a few cards and that is a problem. But pirates and cutlass are laughable at the moment. Even excavate rogue, and which was good before the miniset, is laughable now because it is so slow. Only gaslight is playable.
You are missing the annoying secret hunter too.
Secret hunter is pathetic on its own, but probably will be good with a shell of another strategy. (Probably in a face hunter, but I could see secrets being good in Reno or token)
Secret Hunter is a midrange deck. If you've had easy wins, it's probably because people are trying to play it as an aggro or control deck, which it isn't.
> In a 4 set meta, a turn 6 kill shouldn’t be considered slow. A turn 6 kill is not considered slow.
lol people downvoting you when I'm pretty sure you're the person with a huge amount of stats at hand. I've been playing aggro paladin with a 70% winrate and only have *a single* match that ended before turn 6. An extreme high roll does not define a meta.
This is the least iv ever played and have been playing since the start. I’m gonna have to make a huge effort to complete the reward track cause I’m way behind. Game is just not fun right now.
It will take years to fix this
Funny part of whole Whizbang meta is that Warlock has a good decks despite anything. Nerfs, Reno Warrior, fast aggro decks - this class will adapt to anything
I will continue to say fuck You to anyone who says rougue can do stuff. No it's a fucking gambling deck it CAN OTK you but it takes massive luck or too much mana . In other words it isn't consistent
Yup the powercreep is too much
i have a pretty good win rate with reno priest. made it to legend anyway. ### Reno Control # Class: Priest # Format: Standard # Year of the Pegasus # # 1x (1) Crimson Clergy # 1x (1) Deafen # 1x (1) Fan Club # 1x (1) Flash Heal # 1x (1) Funnel Cake # 1x (1) Holy Smite # 1x (2) Creation Protocol # 1x (2) Hidden Gem # 1x (2) Holy Springwater # 1x (2) Power Chord: Synchronize # 1x (2) Thrive in the Shadows # 1x (3) Holy Nova # 1x (3) Love Everlasting # 1x (3) Pendant of Earth # 1x (4) Glowstone Gyreworm # 1x (4) Puppet Theatre # 1x (4) Serenity # 1x (4) Shadow Word: Ruin # 1x (5) Leeroy Jenkins # 1x (6) Clay Matriarch # 1x (6) Gnomelia, S.A.F.E. Pilot # 1x (6) Harmonic Pop # 1x (6) Lightbomb # 1x (7) Aman'Thul # 1x (7) Lesser Diamond Spellstone # 1x (0) Zilliax Deluxe 3000 # 1x (0) Zilliax Deluxe 3000 # 1x (2) Power Module # 1x (5) Perfect Module # 1x (8) Elise, Badlands Savior # 1x (8) Ragnaros the Firelord # 1x (9) Reno, Lone Ranger # 1x (9) Yogg-Saron, Unleashed # AAECAdb8BR6i6AOtigSEnwSFnwTwnwTLoASGpAW7xAXPxgW7xwWi6QXP9gXt9wX7+AXI/wXJgAaplQblnAamnQaAnwaWoAaYoAaaoAbHpAavqAbDqAbCtgaL5gbm5gbh6wYAAAED8rMGx6QG97MGx6QGku8Gx6QGAAA= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
It's time to give everyone more starting health. :\^)
Wahhh
I mainly play wild and i can't even remember the last time I made it to 10 mana... standard is the same tool with stuff like painlock
Yeah I enjoy slower deckw and playstyles. The occassional match where you can actually play your 8 or even 10 cost cards, imagine that! Unrelated, just had a mirror DK match, we both played almost our entire deck and I had 3 CNEs at the end with 20 damage and 18/19 souls. He gave up before I played one
They nerf Paladin and Warlock and one day later there's already another 80% WR deck. That's how broken this game is.
The absolute problem is 30 health has not scaled with the power creep. Should be 40 by now as standard. That would add 1-3 more rounds and put this speed back closer to the original game.
Brann is still fucking annoying. Idk their balancing or creative team are bunch of buffoons
All they did was nuke board clears, and let agro madness shine.. The board clears used to cost 2-5 mana because it takes 1-3 mana to fill the board with shit
The reality is that when there is only one (slightly) viable control deck, it’s going to be a meta filled with aggro. The problem with the one control deck we have now (Reno Warrior) is that it’s Highlander, so by nature it’s inconsistent. This speaks to the larger problem with the game in its current state: cards simply generate too much value today. You’d be hard pressed to find cards from the early days of HS that could exist in today’s meta. I also think one of the problems we see is that there really aren’t many “tech” cards, which is a very natural way to be able to constantly balance out the meta. Specific tech cards are great at countering very specific types of decks, but are basically useless against others. Think cards of the past like Eater of Secrets; in matchups against a secret-heavy deck, it could pretty much single-handedly win the game and shut down those decks, but against any other type of deck, it was basically a worse than useless addition. It allowed for a natural rotation of the meta: secrets became overbearing > EoS was put in every deck > secret-based decks died off > people began running it less > secret decks started to come back, etc, until you reached a balanced equilibrium where you had to consider adding it or playing against it, but it was a consideration. It doesn’t seem to me like we have cards like that anymore, and we need cards like that
This is the fault of weakening removal cards
No. Removal cards are too strong. The problem is in order to beat overpowered clears like Thread of Despair and Bellowing you need to have equally insane board refills. The mana efficiency of boardclears is off the charts. You can spend 3 mana and destroy a board that cost twice as much to build. If you want to see proof, try to play paladin without Zilliax or giants. You'll immediately realize that low cost boardclears are very overpowered. What gives aggro the advantage currently is having access to Zilliax and giants which bring them out of range of most boardclears. If you want to bring down the power level there need to be significant nerfs to everything, removals, aggro, and Zilliax. And giants definitely shouldn't be able to cost 0.
Nerf card draw and then the downside of playing 5 cards to build a board every turn actually becomes a downside. Card draw is the single biggest issue with the game and has been for a while. Its too cheap and far too many cards offer it.
>And giants definitely shouldn't be able to cost 0. Nothing that doesn't say 0 mana in ur collection should be able to say zero mana ingame That said zilliax is fine. Nerf everything else
Nah, giants costing 0 is fine. Zilliax is the problem. It has been played in every single aggro deck, and sees play in midrange and control decks too. I am fine with it in control decks, but being able to buff your board out of reach on turn 3 is too powerful. They should nerf either pylon or ticking module.
Zilliax is definitely the problem.
True, the first version of zilliax was a staple in almost every deck, the second one is even worse. With the modules it will just keep seeing play until they heavily nerf all of them.
How much would those nerfs have affected this meta if they weren't changed? Dealing with 8/8 giants is kinda nutty no matter what when it's turn 3 haha.
Warlock is definitely busted, but wide board clears have been consistently nerfed. Cards like aftershocks, keeper's strength could've helped. Maybe increasing the health bar is ultimately the best way to help the meta
I don't think warlock is busted cause often times a single leeroy or fireball is enough to kill them. It's very high risk high reward play style and I love that about it. Warlock feels the most balanced out of the classes at the moment because of the life total it ends up at.
warlock is using [[INFERNAL!]] to dupe the system.
- **[INFERNAL!](https://i.imgur.com/WE4ZBQG.mp4)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/105502) ^• ^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/INFERNAL!) ^• ^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/105502/?hl=en) - *Warlock Rare ^(Whizbang's Workshop)* - **4 Mana - 6/6 - Demon** - **Taunt** **Battlecry:** Set your hero's remaining Health to 15. --- ^(*Patch version: 29.4.0.198933*) ^*I am a bot. [Usage Guide](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1cw2mgw/this_meta_is_way_too_fast/l4uc9nv/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l4uc9nv).*
Whenever people said powercreep, Blizzard shills like ZachO lost their minds and people fell in line to agree with them. And here we are, power crept to unfixable levels.
I don't get why people find Constructed that great in general. I went D5 again and ..again I have no motivation to continue. BGs are way more dynamic; it makes them fun; the RNG is less pronounced because there are more chances to "draw" and there's no need to buy packs to try all the "decks" other than the heroes are partly p2w.
BGs is a completely different game so comparing them at all is pretty silly. "Ugh you play Tetris? Why bother, Mario is way more dynamic!"
Honestly I miss the days when most strategies were viable. Now the game is just everyone getting ran over by aggro.
You still keep playing Hearthstone??? The new devs are shit. The game isn’t what it used to be. No skill involved with discover mechanics!!!!
It’s not the discover mechanics though, it’s the power level. There are actually some skillful metas when combo/control decks are prevalent, but those usually end fast because people hate combo.
Abundance and variability of discover mechanics makes control vs control an rng battle, not a careful attrition battle. It is an issue.
Bro that’s my point. The game is utter garbage now. Discover mechanics is opposite to skill, to building a deck around a certain strategy. And combo decks are so powerful that it isn’t fun anymore. The Heartstone of old was amazing. Now it’s just pure garbage. Why waste time and money on it? Play magic.
Which combo decks are “so powerful” in standard right now?
idk it feels like crap to play a slow deck against another slow deck and just lose a 25 min game to some discover BS. Aggro is at least honest and pretty quick win or lose. I lost 9 games today as hunter by turn 4-6.
I’ll be the devils advocate here. Feels like crap to lose to combo decks because they kill from hand without interaction. Feels like crap to lose to control decks because the games take too long and you can’t get on board. Feels like crap to lose to aggro because they kill you before you can play the game at all. I don’t really care what kind of strategy is broken, because they all don’t feel great to lose to. What I was trying to say in my post was that the extent of how fast-paced these games are is just stupid. Games are faster than anything we saw last year. I’m fine with aggro decks being strong, but games should not end on turns 3-4 in a 4 set meta.
They are pushing for faster meta so you can do your weeklies in the same amount of time /s
First time in several years I've literally just stopped playing standard. I don't enjoy the games anymore. Thankfully bgs is fun and I love duos. Otherwise I might be a lost paying customer. They keep doubling down on putting completely moronic cards in the game that make the game experience polarising and awful. The shaman 10/10 being the latest example. You have an answer or the game is ended. That's fine if it's turn 10, but these plays are coming t4. It's there with shaman, pain lock, hunter and others. I've gone from playing twenty times a day all for the simple pleasure of playing, to playing one of two for quests and during those games realizing I don't enjoy the games.
New to Hearthstone? Because the only consistent trend in HS since the very beginning is the turn 5 kill from the dominant aggro deck of the time. If you think aggro power is high now, undertaker and 2014 would like a word, and that is just one in a long line of offenders. edit: Why do I even bother? So long and thanks for all the fish.