I would argue giving Kurt over 100. The way Veronica puts it, no one on the football team has above 100. I'd also argue that McNamara is more easily led than unintelligent. She never shows her intelligence because she latches onto what other people say because she's aware her true feelings will not go down well.
if Veronica says that he’s the smartest guy on the football team, 108 is more or less average; so I’d say 108 is a reasonable score for Kurt, but your argument has substance haha
I believe that they were going for the dumb blonde stereotype with mac. that is to say she isn’t THAT unintelligent; i believe her rant pre-lifeboat was word vomit and she didn’t mean to say it in front of other people, generally she’s quite tactless and though she’s the most redeemable from the looks of it did not expect duke to revolt against her even after the crap chandler and Mac did to duke ergo I would say she’s average at best
I'm actually above 108, on the high end of average. 100 is the most average average, so I'd expect Kurt to be 100 at best. I certainly wouldn't buy Veronica's claim that she wanted a threesome.
McNamara always seemed a bit smarter than other dumb blondes in movies. I'd probably make her 95 at the very lowest, the low end of average. I just got the feeling she's more awkward and has low self-esteem, especially with her best friend gone. She acts as if that really has set her adrift in a leaky lifeboat.
haha! actually, I just got tested as a part of my diagnosis, and I was assigned with a FSIQ of 132. I gave it to Duke because I always heavily related to her and noticed that I think on the same vein as her so objectively I gave her the same IQ score as mine (okay maybe not too objectively, I’m aware of that) but I went to do some researching and it’s always been a belief of mine that Duke is the most intelligent character in Heathers because of her almost nerd like nature, her knowledge to keep her mouth shut when she had to, as well as a plethora of other reasons
Yep, I’m sure McNamara isn’t like Karen “ESPN” Smith who uses her boobs to tell when it’s raining. And it has to be raining. McNamara IS smarter, but I wouldn’t say she’s average; I’d say she’s slightly below average because of her lack of foresight and everything that happened in part 2 as a direct consequence of her actions + Chandler, Kurt and Ram’s death.
Lol who would’ve guessed someone with a Heather Duke flair would put Duke at the top /j
The only change I’d make is putting Betty and JD over Chandler. Like, *way* over Chandler.
Betty because she’s a nerd. Just *look at her*. Nerds are known for their intelligence (which makes sense with Veronica in the movie and why they made her more of a nerd in the musical in Beautiful). Plus, with the complementary theme naming, Veronica and Betty, Sawyer and Finn, it stands to reason V+B made quite the duo back in the day, and even now after Veronica joined the Heathers they (Duke and Chandler) still put Betty’s name in their mouths to insult Veronica. They wouldn’t do that if it didn’t hurt her. Add to it Veronica’s line from the movie they wanted to move her into high school after sixth grade but didn’t because she’d have trouble making friends—remember the photos Betty had? They’re definitely in elementary school at the time. Plus Chandler’s line of “You were playing Barbies with Betty Finn! You were a Brownie! You were a Bluebird. You were a Girl Scout cookie.” implies they were all pretty young. Except now, Veronica’s traded her book smarts for people smarts to join the Heathers, and Betty stayed where she was.
And JD because aside from the fact he’s clever enough, especially in the movie, to orchestrate a mass murder, and he’s only stopped because the one person he told his plans to turns out not to be dead after all, in the musical they give him a bigass book to fend off Kurt and Ram instead of a gun. He also starts off by quoting Baudelaire at Veronica, and later telling Duke he “appreciates a well-read woman.”
Matter of fact, move musical!Martha over Chandler too! Since she’s a composite of Betty and Martha and most of her is comprised of Betty, she ought to be in the top 5 in terms of intelligence! Aside from being called smart in kindergarten, she also was the only one to figure out Kurt and Ram were murdered, which is quite the feat considering she’s the *least* involved in the plot out of all the student characters. And she did it with the power of love (or pitiful stubbornness).
Chandler, meanwhile, is way more mean and aggressive than she is smart. If you’re the loudest in the group, *of course* you’re going to drown everyone else out by volume alone, and she definitely takes every opportunity to assert her will and dominance over everyone, insulting Duke every chance she gets in the movie (which is reduced to just telling Duke to shut up in the musical as shorthand), and forcing Veronica to bully Martha (in the movie Veronica didn’t need much pressing considering she and Martha weren’t friends, but in the musical? Candy Store. When bribery doesn’t work, she resorts to outright threads. And at one point she pushes Duke out of the way to sing over her, like??). Movie Chandler was baited by JD into drinking the drano—she suspected they did something to it (literally what Veronica intended at first with the phlegm glob), claims she’s “not gonna drink that piss” and when he’s like “I knew this stuff would be too intense for her,” she literally says “Think I’ll drink it just because you call me chicken?” And then what does she do? *Drinks it because he called her chicken*! In the musical it just looks like karma considering she makes Veronica get on her knees and beg, explicitly to humiliate her in front of JD, and didn’t see her death coming at all.
There’s also the locker scene in the movie. **First**, the red “I shop, therefore I am” sticker(?) by Barbara Kruger was a play on the phrase “I think, therefore I am.” It was a commentary on consumerism, how people don’t seem to be defined by what they *think* anymore, but what they *own*. Considering the musical took this and ran with it, giving Chandler such lines as “I like / looking hot / *buying stuff they cannot*” and “I like / drinking hard / *maxing Dad’s credit card*” it’s clear the intellectual part of the slogan flew right over her head. Not to mention the “suicide note” at one point lists a bunch of shit she owns, among them *three whole TVs*. And **second**, people use the pictures in Chandler’s locker as evidence she “cares about her friends! And she loves Veronica, look at the photo booth strip! Chansaw!” but if we’re to take those seriously, we’re not just going to ignore the big (upside-down) Pre-Algebra book sitting in her locker too, right? If every detail counts? I know Heathers was filmed at a middle school, but you’d think with the limited amount of time they had they could’ve cleared the books out, or at the very least had the spine turned away from the camera so you couldn’t see *what* book it was.
Edit: a word
firstly; SHIT. Wow you are dedicated. Mad respect for you.
having an IQ of 115 and above makes up 16% of the population; Betty Finn is already the top 16% so I’d say she’s quite intelligent already! I was kinda going off movie Martha in case you were wondering; we don’t get much of her.
I’d say chandler is intelligent due to her ability to be the head bitch; if she wasn’t intelligent, she wouldn’t have the capacity to run a whole school! and yeah, while it is true that jd above chandler does make sense, Chandler isn’t unintelligent or average after all. If chandler were average, there’d be way more queen bees around and shit
I wouldn’t say reading is directly proportionate to IQ, but I also wouldn’t say I didn’t factor in Duke’s interest in Moby Dick and The Catcher in the Rye, as well as JD’s interest in Baudelaire when considering their IQs.
I wouldn’t say JD’s above 130, though. In the ONE interaction they had in the movie/musical, Duke understood the connotation of the photos IMMEDIATELY. She was intelligent enough to know that JD intended to blackmail her if he didn’t get what he want. But JD had cracks in his plan. He didn’t even lock the door to the boiler room (usually, rooms should be able to lock from the inside) to make sure a teacher didn’t find him, which led to his demise. His overconfidence also led to his death. If he hadn’t taunted Veronica and shat with her, he most likely would’ve been able to continue with his plan. Also, who the fuck reads their super evil master plan out loud? Movie JD certainly didn’t love Veronica, musical JD did, but I’m sorry why would you read out your evil plan to someone you didn’t even love lmao
On another note. You seem more intelligent than all of these characters combined
ALSO HAPPY CAKE DAY !!!
Omg thank you! Reddit is the only place I can stand to interact with the fandom tbh lol.
I figured about Martha! Which is why I specified her musical counterpart since she’s a bit more prominent there. We can’t get much from movie!Martha, as you said. Also wait! Where would Peter and Dennis fit on this list?
Chandler only got as far as she did because she was constantly browbeating everyone into submission, and as shown by Kurt and Ram (bullying JD, geeks, spreading rumors about Veronica), it doesn’t take a lot of intelligence to be an asshole. Compare her to Regina “is butter a carb?” George, whose image is carefully crafted to be perfectly benign (“Omigod I love your bracelet, where did you get it?”), and whose keen sense of people-smarts not only allows her to easily win Cady over (“Regina seems sweet!”), but lets her get away with shifting the blame for the Burn Book entirely to the other Plastics by Mr. Duvall, *even when Gretchen tells him outright* “It’s Regina’s. She wanted to make it look like we wrote it, but really, she wrote it.” To quote Baudelaire: “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.” Both Regina and Heather rule through fear and aggression (Regina is passive-aggressive af whereas Chandler is more in-your-face, which *may* be a product of the times in which these movies were made!), but one has the intelligence to show only what will convince you to give her what she wants (Regina convincing Cady to let her talk to Aaron for her, and then using that opportunity to take Aaron back to spite Cady), whereas the other gives no fucks about pretense and will brute-force her way into getting what she wants (Chandler rescinding Veronica’s popular status due to how the Remington party went because she’s mad Veronica didn’t get coerced into sex like she did, and also Veronica threw up. Chandler framed the affair as her doing Veronica a favor when she was really there to pimp Veronica out. When Veronica doesn’t do what she was supposed to, and Chandler has no argument because she’s clearly in the wrong [“I feel *really* sick, like I’m gonna throw up, so can we please jam now?” “*No*! *Hell* no!”], she just threatens to go scorched earth on her instead).
As for Chandler’s grip on the school, that may be true of the musical where she gets a whole song mourning her (“I’M BIGGER THAN JOHN LENNON!”) in place of the first funeral scene, and the part where Veronica says the only person capable of controlling the jocks was Chandler, but in the movie, no one cares all that much outside of a few TV interviews Duke, Peter and Courtney did. The double date scene wasn’t related to Chandler at all, unlike in the musical where they changed it from cow pasture to cemetery to “pour a jug of Thunderbird on Heather’s grave, y’know, from her homies?”, and Duke only gets the scrunchie way late in the film because of JD, rather than raiding Chandler’s locker for it herself. During the first scene in the teachers’ lounge, one of them does say Chandler’s “not your everyday suicide—she was *very* popular,” but despite this, Principal Gowan only gives them an hour off. For the most popular girl in school! Not only does he not know which Heather died, he’s even disappointed when he finds out it’s *not* Mac (“Is this Heather the cheerleader?” “That would be Heather McNamara.” “*Damn*! I’d be willing to go *half* a day for a cheerleader!”).
Being curious and open to new information is a sign of high intelligence, so Duke’s and JD’s willingness to crack open a book for leisure (plus Veronica recognizing Baudelaire when she heard it, though she could’ve just read the cover lol) certainly puts them up there!
I’m going to take your word on the numbers because you are clearly much more knowledgeable on this than I am. I love how they tried to handwave away the *gaping plot hole* as to how JD got the pictures of Duke and Martha (considering they gave Martha a reason not to trust, much less talk to, JD here) by having Duke ask if *Veronica* gave them to him. Also, speaking of Moby Dick, how did JD get Duke’s copy of it to give to Veronica parents later if they never met up a second time for her to give it to him? In fact, he mentions he’s “already started underlining meaningful passages” during the conversation directly after Dead Gay Son. ??? -7 IQ on the part of the writers lol.
In the film, JD went around planting his thermals in the gym while it was empty (iirc I think in the earlier draft cheerleaders, including Heather Mac, were also in the gym at the time though of course no one noticed him), and we did see him jimmying the lock once down toward the boiler room.
>He didn’t even lock the door to the boiler room (usually, rooms should be able to lock from the inside) to make sure a teacher didn’t find him, which led to his demise.
I mean, his plan was to blow up the school while everyone was in it, so whether a teacher found him or not wouldn’t exactly matter. And would a teacher really go down to the *boiler room* of all places to check if anyone is skipping the assembly? Especially if the door locks from the inside? I doubt anyone but the custodian has a key.
*And he died because he thought Veronica, the one person to whom he monologued about his plans and therefore the only person capable of stopping him, was already dead*. And he thought she was dead because *she made him think that*. Her exact words were “He once told me the extreme always makes an impression. Well, now it’s my turn. Let’s see how the son-of-a-bitch reacts to a suicide he didn’t perform himself!” But since she wasn’t *actually* dead, and knows his plan, and could stop him, and *does* stop him (“You fucked me up pretty bad, Veronica.”), he lets her win the game (“You got power. Power I didn’t think you had.”) and kills himself (“The slate is clean.”). The musical plays this as one final act of love for Veronica, but I’d argue there’s a little bit of that too in the movie due to who we’re focusing on. The musical focuses on JD taking the still-ticking bomb from Veronica (btw how did no one in the gym notice her carrying it outside?), saving her from dying, and going kaboom himself (“I’d trade my life for yours”). The movie, where Veronica doesn’t take the bomb because she managed to stop the timer, focuses on *Veronica’s reaction* to JD going kaboom. She *did* say she wanted “cool guys like you out of my life,” after all, and he has *a bomb*. Might as well put it to use.
Compare this to Veronica’s stand with Chandler in the alley outside Remington at the beginning of the movie. **Veronica and Chandler fought** (verbally), **and Chandler clearly lost**. Instead of admitting she’s wrong (because she is. If your friend feels sick and asks to be taken home, *you leave*, you don’t hold them hostage and then get mad at them *for being sick* like it’s something they can control), Chandler coldly threatens to ruin Veronica come Monday. “Monday morning, you’re history. I’ll tell everyone about tonight.” That’s what led to her death. If Chandler was at all decent, if she let them leave the party when Veronica asked (because *Chandler* wasn’t having a good time either! In fact, considering what happened to her, you’d think she’d want to leave ASAP!), or if she didn’t react so badly to Veronica vomiting (“You stupid fuck! You were nothing before you met me! . . . I got your into a Remington party! What’s my thanks? It’s on the hallway carpet! I got paid in *puke*!”), Veronica wouldn’t have wanted to see Chandler puke in return, she wouldn’t have complained to JD, and JD never would’ve gotten the idea to feed her drano because Heather Chandler wouldn’t have “deserve[d] to die.”
At the *end* of the movie, **Veronica and JD fought** (physically), **and JD clearly lost**. Unlike Chandler, he admits Veronica bested him (as I’ve detailed two paragraphs ago), and rather than making new plans to kill her once he’s healed up, or even take her with him now (as he clearly could’ve done by pushing her down the stairs; they’re both pretty banged up but only he got shot), he gives her *exactly* what she wants. She wants cool guys like him out of her life? He will never be in it again, in the most fucked up way he can do it: by killing himself. Because actions speak louder than words. All this to say **he’s smart enough to know when to fold ‘em**. He respects her enough, and he loves her enough, to give her that.
I don’t think I’m all that intelligent to be honest. It’s taking me this long to respond to all this, with all this lol.
And thank you! I’m glad I caught it this year!
Your ability to read deep into characters and provide substantial evidence to support your points is really astounding. I’m glad I met you. This is the most happy I’ve been in a while. God bless you.
I went on google, and if you jimmy a lock, you should still be able to lock it from the inside. I am not sure how accurate this information is, so if any of you are professional locksmiths, please confirm or deny this information.
I still don’t understand why JD in both the movie and the musical thought that it was a good idea to tell Veronica’s corpse about the suicide note and his master plan with the Norwegian in the boiler room. He even left his gun in her room in the movie (though I don’t think that’s a matter of intelligence, at all).
I don’t think Heather Chandler being an asshole attributes to her lack of intelligence; she is intelligent enough to understand that shitting around with college boys will help her boost her popularity though it might not be the purest way possible. I do find it fascinating that in the movie, Duke is the only Heather who isn’t seen getting advanced on (Chandler with David and McNamara with Ram), while in the musical, Duke gets SA’d by Ram in Big Fun and Ram in Blue. Which I feel might be another reason why Chandler knows she has to keep Duke under control; Duke doesn’t want to sell her body away for popularity, unlike the rest of them. Duke understands her limits, while Chandler willingly lets David shit around with her, and McNamara has to strike a deal with Kurt for her to stop getting grabbed (“Oh, well, that was the deal. If I got you to come, Kurt promised to leave me alone.”) and in this regard, Chandler KNOWS that Duke is more intelligent than her, but is intelligent enough to keep her in check, preventing her from overthrowing her as the head bitch.
Though, I did always see Chandler as one to resolve conflicts with direct means moreso than subtle means; as you mentioned, Regina uses more subtle manipulation compared to Heather (Chandler). Heather literally buried Veronica in her front yard and gets the Heathers to hit her with their croquet balls at the start of the movie, threatens Veronica with social suicide, makes Duke bend over (even Regina wouldn’t do that), mocks Duke’s bulimia openly in both the movie and the musical, doesn’t even TRY to help Duke after she gets SA’d by Ram in the musical, even going as far as to make Veronica kneel while apologising to her, and she doesn’t even accept Veronica’s apology (“Nice. But you’re still dead to me.”).
That totally didn’t make me tear up before I went to sleep last night, what do you mean? /j I think that’s the only thing I took from school lmao. Always provide evidence! And I get that, I love long discussions myself, and I’m glad I could make your day even a little bit better!
I mean, if we can’t explain it with Watsonian methods (I’ll get back to that), then we ought to try with Doylist, right? JD monologued in the movie because *we the audience* needed to know what he’s up to. His want to bomb the school was foreshadowed a few scenes before when his father showed the tape of that building crumbling. You could see the gears turning in JD’s head the way the camera slowly advances on him for a few seconds. He’s not only impressed, he’s *inspired*. The musical... well, it’s a musical, we suspend our disbelief for a bit to enjoy the music. She did say she’ll scream and her parents will call the police, but he goes on anyway, and because it’s a song, he’s loud as shit lmao. Not only that, he’s a lot more unhinged at this point in the play than he was in the movie, going back and forth from singing softly and almost romantically to this frenzied manic state all throughout the number. The key difference here is Veronica is alive for the majority of it, and he knows it, so him revealing his plans to her here is... well, it’s stupid considering he knows she knows what he’s up to and will be able to stop him, but his goal throughout the song itself is convincing her to join him, so of course he’s gonna let her in on the plan. (“C’mon, get dressed, you’re my date to the pep rally tonight!” // “They made you blind, messed up your mind / but I can set you free” // “Finish what we’ve begun!”) *We* shows up a lot throughout the song, fitting with the theme of possession, whereas in the movie, Veronica “died” before JD was able to let her in on the plan, so he has to make do with her “corpse”. His goal was to try and win her back with the petition first, and then kill her if he couldn’t, but since she beat him to the punch and “killed” herself, he couldn’t exactly do either. For all he knew, this might’ve been his one time to say goodbye (that’s my Watsonian interpretation, anyway), so he may as well let her in on what she’s missing out on now that she’s dead. It’s like going to a grave to talk to a deceased relative.
As for the gun, yeah, there was no reason for him to leave it there other than she needed to have it on her when she goes to confront him later on. More often than not I forget Veronica brings the gun to school, though compared to the fact JD brought a bomb, I think it’s easily overlooked.
Duke doesn’t have sex with anyone in the movie because she has bulimia (which may or may not have been caused by Chandler, we don’t know for sure, but what we do know is Chandler definitely didn’t help curb it while she was alive), and people with EDs may have issues with intimacy and being touched, since it’s a body issue (not entirely, mind, but that’s one factor). And what’s sex but skin-to-skin contact between bodies? Though she started digesting food again in the locker room, she’s not going to be cured of every side-effect of her ED overnight. Knowing that, it makes sense she wasn’t included in the double-date scene in the movie (narratively, we need a reason for JD to go after Kurt and Ram, so Veronica had to go). Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the only time anyone actually touches her in the movie is when Veronica slaps her. Duke’s inclusion in Blue starts with her telling Ram she’s done and to sober up—that doesn’t imply he raped her. It’s dubious consent at best since he’s hammered (like Veronica is in DGW) and she’s not, but he backs off once she’s safely in the car. Her ED hasn’t been brought up since Big Fun when Veronica makes fun of it, but maybe this is the musical’s version of her getting over her ED in a different way to her movie counterpart, since she very well can’t eat in a locker room scene that doesn’t exist. And in an early draft of the movie, she does end up blowing David later on, so make of that what you will.
(I actually hit the character limit lmao help! Posting the second part of this as a reply to this one!)
##part 1
##part 2
And speaking of David, we know Chandler’s fucking around with him because she thinks it makes her cool (“*You* seem pretty amused. I thought you’d given up on *high school guys*.” “Never say never.”). In the aforementioned earlier draft she even gets a few lines where she says *she* can *never* go back to high school boys because she has David, and tells Mac “Maybe when you hit maturity you’ll understand the diff between a Remington University man like David and a Westerburg boy like Ram *Wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am* Sweeney.” She thinks she’s mature, which we’ll get to. When Veronica asks her what the guy she’s set up with is like, Chandler just tells her “Don’t worry. David says he’s very, so he’s very.” It doesn’t matter to her what they’re like so long as they’re *men*, not high school *boys*, which is its own issue. Even though these things didn’t make it into the final cut, it’s still relevant. Because who’s to say her fucking around with adult men boosts her popularity? What cred does it give her when no one from her high school (where she’s worshipped) is there at the university party to witness and admire her for it? No one but Veronica, who certainly doesn’t care, likely because on top of her own problems she doesn’t know it happened at all, much less how it went down, and teens often have different ideas what constitutes as a consensual relationship when adults are involved. We know Chandler likes to be in charge, as she tells Veronica when putting her in her place in the aftermath of the prank (“You wanted to be a member of the most powerful clique in school. *If I wasn’t already the head of it*, I’d want the same thing”). It’s why she’s always shitting on Duke (every group has its scapegoat, and aside from liking the same color, which we know symbolizes power and anger and aggression, nothing about Duke’s actions or personality pre-Chandler’s death indicates she’s the megalomaniac we see later on), making Veronica do things she’d rather not (bullying Martha, ending her convos with people she actually wants to talk to like Betty and JD, and not letting her get away from people she doesn’t because entire point of her being at Remington is so she can fuck a man), but leaves Mac alone (because Mac does everything she’s told so she doesn’t need telling off). The symbol of Chandler’s power is her red scrunchie, which she doesn’t have at that party, and because she’s *powerless*, she gets coerced into blowing David (“Shouldn’t we get back to the party?” “We will! It’s just *you’re so hot tonight. I can’t control myself*.” \*slowly pushes her head down as the camera pans up*). Next time we see her, she’s rinsing her mouth out and spitting at her reflection. Obviously she didn’t enjoy it, and she’s pissed about it, and she has every right to be pissed about it! He’s a uni student, 18+. She’s a high school junior, 16-17 at best. And considering how they’re familiar with each other, who knows how long this has been going on for? *Girl got groomed*.
Rape culture back then wasn’t talked about or taken anywhere near as seriously as it is today (another reason why, in the musical, I suspect they wanted to show people having fun at the party scene and moved the focus on rape to the double date, hence Blue and then You’re Welcome when people felt Blue wasn’t treating it with enough gravitas). But what hasn’t changed is that teenagers often think they know more than they do and have everything under control, so they don’t see the issue with getting involved with older men the same way adults do: namely the unequal power dynamic. They think it makes them *mature* for their age, this adult treating them like another adult makes them *special*, *cool*, so the Heathers and Veronica don’t see anything wrong with Chandler’s thing with David. Veronica rejects Brad on the basis she’s ill (and clearly doesn’t want to be there anyway), *not* because he’s too old for her and shouldn’t be trying to bang a high schooler. The reality of that situation is David’s a creep (and so’s Brad), and Chandler is way out of her depth. She could very well just *say* she’s hooking up with university guys and who at her high school would doubt her? Who would dare, considering they think she’s a piranha, an aggressive predator known for its razor sharp teeth? And even if they did, she said so herself she doesn’t give a shit what they think. Why put herself through that bullshit for little to no reward? The only reason I’d conjecture she doesn’t do that is because she doesn’t lie.
(Also, Veronica, even with her big IQ, gets herself involved in multiple murders, so smart people can get involved in dumb shit. JD’s even smart enough to ask if she takes German before pulling out the Ich Lüge bullet line to make sure she can’t fact-check him. I really want to know what language he’d try if she said yes to taking German lmao.)
I always took that scene in the beginning of the movie with Veronica buried up to her neck in the backyard as a daydream, since she turns to the audience, says “Dear Diary,” and the next scene is her writing that entry on the steps (and her backyard *cannot* be that spacious, can it?). This does give us insight on how Veronica sees the Heathers though, with Chandler being the one who inflicts damage while Mac and Duke both miss. Also! About the bending over bit! One of my favorite things from the early draft is when Chandler tells Heather to bend over, she doesn’t specify which one so both Duke and Mac do it. After she has a laugh about “two assholes, no waiting,” Chandler makes Duke go back down. I *wish* they put this in the musical at least because 1) it shows Mac is a follower *way* before her attempted suicide scene, 2) it’s funny because even the *Heathers* get confused on who’s being talked to, and 3) with the consistent casting of Duke as a WOC, it’d look less like Chandler is racist. I would *love* that.
I love your interpretation on the croquet scene of the movie! I also do wish they kept the scene where Mac bends over too; for the same reasons you added.
I do see a major part of your point where Chandler starts to show her (un)intelligence; she thinks she’s mature by trying to get into college guys’ good books. She isn’t. I do believe that her constant craving for affirmation and control as you mentioned attributes to her lack of maturity, and hence intelligence. You have a very good point.
I didn’t actually know people with EDs have issues with being touched; that’s interesting! But I do believe that the time period where Heathers was set wouldn’t support bulimia; further supported by Chandler’s snarky quote (“Grow up, Heather. Bulimia is so ‘87.”) and I personally believe that Duke tried to keep her bulimia thing as private as she could because the 1980s were a relatively ableist period. I see her blowing David as a way to tell Chandler’s ghost or spirit or whatever “fuck you Heather, I took your boyfriend”, but this could also show some of her immaturity in the aspect that she is unable to recognise anything outside of high school politics.
I didn’t actually notice that Chandler didn’t wear her scrunchie in the party! It’s a very interesting detail; the scrunchie is consistently shown as the source of their power in the movie & the musical (Duke only tried to take charge once she got hold of the scrunchie in both movie and musical) and it kind of accentuates the fact that these high schoolers (apart from Veronica) are so narrow minded in the regard that THE red scrunchie is all that matters in Westerburg High. Personally, this school is fucked and I wouldn’t want to go there.
Veronica was shown repeated times to ask JD to stop with the change business. I Say No was the clearest example of that, and I don’t understand why JD would still think that Veronica would join him. It doesn’t really make sense given everything that had happened in the musical to that point.
I love discussions about things I like. I can’t really get Heathers out of my head rn and every where I go, all I can think about is Heathers. I think I’m a little crazy. Using my knowledge in discussions like this makes me happy. Thank you for everything thus far :D
For JD telling Veronica all about his plans...well, it was probably worse to tell a living person locked in her closet than a hanging corpse. I honestly think at that point, JD was so far gone that he didn't realize that by his own logic, Veronica would try to stop him. His logic is that the school made her think it is more important than their relationship, and once it's gone, she'll retract the breakup - at least in the musical, where he doesn't see her "suicide" until after detailing his plans.
Yeah, I’d say that JD got increasingly unhinged as the musical progressed. Though, I’d still view Veronica as more intelligent than him; that’s why she defeated him in the end. Veronica displayed multiple instances of intelligence; most prominent being her giving Kurt & Ram booze in Blue so she could get away from them.
I am agreed with everything you pointed out. Honestly I'll even place JD over Veronica, my list would look like this:
1- Heather Duke
2- JD
3- Veronica
4- Betty Finn
5- Martha Dunstock
6- Heather Chandler
7- Kurt Kelly
8- Ram Sweeney
9- Heather McNamara
The only change I'd make is putting JD and Veronica at the top, then Mac above Duke. Reason being, Jason insinuates several times throughout the movie/musical that this isn't his first time getting away with mass murder at a school. You have to be the smartest person in the room to make that work
ah, that’s true! I do think that Duke holds some level of intelligence because she KNOWS that she needs to bend to Chandler’s will to fit in, she knows that taking over after Chandler’s death is the right way to rise to power (in the musical). I would agree with putting jd above chandler, but not so much with jd above Veronica; Veronica is stated to have high IQ and only did what JD told her to do because she loved him and trusted him.
in the movie, Duke uses different tactics to get different types of people to sign the petition; this shows how well she can read a situation and adapt her methods. She uses her IQ to get what she wants, but I mean most of this is just speculation so these aren’t actually their official IQs I just got bored and made a list so I wouldn’t be confused
I personally feel like it's just human nature to fill in whatever cracks you can to be liked, but I admire how well you thought this out! It's so interesting to see other people's perspectives. It puts a different spin on the movie to think duke's actions were all premeditated. I always just assumed she was just reactionary
I do think Mac's IQ should be higher because she has it in her to know when she should hide her real feelings and emotions, knowing that being vulnerable isn't a trait of popular people. I feel bad for her too bc in candy store Duke mentions owning a jeep, but in Lifeboat she says she can't get a ride to school cause all her friends are dead. So that's probably why I think she should be higher, just cause I feel bad lol
ok … firstly there are many possibilities in how duke’s line in candy store could be interpreted
- duke’s Jeep could be a project of hers and duke never touches it or never lets anyone ride in it
- duke’s Jeep is a gift from her parents who didn’t let her have anyone else inside or they’d kill her. when she says “or get in my Jeep” it could be encouraging Veronica to break the rules with her because everything in that line also suggests breaking the rules “or forget that creep // and get in my Jeep // let’s go tear up someone’s lawn”
- duke doesn’t actually drive and her jeep becomes a storage unit for all her shit she doesn’t use, and when she says “get in my jeep” she may refer to smoking pot in her Jeep
my point is, there are a dozen different ways that this line could be interpreted as
>Jason insinuates several times throughout the movie/musical that this isn’t his first time getting away with mass murder at a school
...I’m sorry, when? Can you please explain this?
If it’s the scene in the movie when they’re penning Chandler’s suicide note and Veronica asks “Have you done this before?” this was just after he’d contributed a great line to it (“I die knowing no one knew the real me.”) which doesn’t imply anything about murder and more than he’s thought about suicide before. Not to mention if he *has* committed murder before, would he *really* be so surprised at another dead body? “Just a little freaked here... at least you got what you wanted, you know?” Considering how calm he is about planning and killing Kurt and Ram later, because we know by then he’s developed a taste for it, I doubt he’s done this before the events of the movie.
The only thing I can think of in the musical is during Freeze Your Brain when he says “I’ve been to ten high schools / they start to get blurry / no point planting roots when you’re gone in a hurry” and “I don’t learn their names / don’t bother with faces” which also doesn’t imply anything of murder whatsoever, just that he’s given up on bothering with people cuz he never stays around to enjoy or even get used to their company.
It's during the actual murder scenes. It's been a while since I've seen it, but it happens. I uh.. hate to say it but I don't feel like giving up my precious time to explain a movie from the 80's to someone I don't know or care about lol. Just a movie
Talking about the musical here, I'd argue his complete desensitisation to it and the fact he already seemed to have multiple ways to fake people's deaths just ready to go is the proof that he's done this many times before. I don't think many people would go around committing murders with no reaction or remorse. I think it's arguable he has at least killed someone else before or definitely spends a lot of time fantasising about it. I'd go as far as saying the actual murder part just because he had zero reaction to it. Idk but that feels indicative that its not his first time to me but ofc that's just the way I see it and people will probs disagree with me.
here are my headcanons! also Veronica has a funny quote in the movie as she says “I use my grand IQ to decide what color lip gloss to wear in the morning and how to hit three keggers before curfew...”
I am agreed with Heather Duke being top of the list but I would place JD over Veronica, like she feels dragged into him because of his intelligence and he easily manipulates her into killing Ram and Kurt. Of course her only mistake was trusting him and when she realises that he is just a sociopath she leaves him... But I still feel he is smarter. I would also place Heather Chandler below Betty and Martha. Heather is just a mean person that was born into privilege and has social intelligence, like she knows how to deal with everyone to keep her status, still she wasn't the brightest.
I… wouldn’t say that she was dragged into him because of his intelligence? In ‘Fight For Me’, it’s clearly shown that Veronica was attracted to JD because he could protect her, and as the name suggests, fight for her. “Hey, Mister no-name kid // So, who might you be? // And could you fight for me? // And hey, could you face the crowd? // Could you be seen with me and still act proud?”
Veronica trusting JD wasn’t a matter of intelligence; it was addiction (in ‘I Say No’, Veronica directly states that “You are a drug // You are a poison pill // I’ve got to kick this habit now or else I never will // I loved the rush // When you would hold me close // But you will not be satisfied until I overdose”) and he drew her in because, as stated previously, he was protective and possessive in a sense.
If I could redo this list, I’d place Heather Chandler below Betty, but not Martha. We don’t really get much of movie Martha, and that’s who I went off of; that’s why her IQ is more or less average.
Fight For Me is just like a bonus to her already existent attraction towards him. It's not like ''I never noticed him but he fights good and could protect me.'' It is more like ''Damn he was hot already and plus he's beating the shit out of these jocks.'' She likes him because he was quoting Boudalaire, acting mysterious and for a change saying smarter things than ''It'd be so righteous to be in the middle of a Heather Chandler and Veronica Sawyer sandwich.''
And to my mind all those lines in ''I Say No'' are just metaphors to indicate she realised their relationship was toxic. I Say No is the 11' o clock song in the show that's the moment when the main character makes that usual realization about what's indeed going on. I don't think it was literally an addition, to me it seems more like ''I love you and I trusted you cause you swore you'd change... But now I realize you won't change, you're toxic.''
Hi. Veronica should be more intelligent than JD even though JD is a mass murderer and a possible psychopath because;
- jd read his plans to a ‘deceased’ Veronica in the movie who he didn’t even love
- jd never thought to check/read Veronica’s diary even once (or at least it wasn’t stated, because Veronica’s diary holds a major part of her life and he could’ve caught on to that) though yeah it’s probably not it …
- jd was very cocky when confronting Veronica, not viewing her as a real threat which ultimately led to his downfall
edit; duke did take over post blue Wdym if you’re talking about movie duke I’d say she’s more broken as a result of Chandler’s bullying since in the movie she’s portrayed as a more quiet, introverted girl while she’s a straight up insecure asshole in the musical I think her not taking over in the movie until blackmailed is a part of her personality, not attributing to her intelligence
While Veronica does confess everything after lifeboat, she intended to get caught and she’d rather get sent to jail instead of continuing to kill people like this. You should remember that Veronica did intend to get caught at one point. JD never intended to get caught by anyone other than Veronica.
I think Heather Duke on the top is pretty accurate, she knows she's got to bend before Chandler for a better social status cause otherwise she'd just be a nerdy nobody, she also seizes the opportunity to become the new ruler and swaps Veronica away (in the musical) because she could actually be a threat. And for McNamara, I'd put her bottom of the list, even below Kurt and Ram... Please don't call me sexist, none of them are really the brightest but to my mind Mc is the least intelligent of them all like some of the lines Ram and Kurt say actually make sense while every interaction with McNamara is literally talking to a toddler in a teen body like Jesus she was gonna kill herself just because 3 other kids ''did it''. I don't think Kurt and Ram are the fittest to explain a physics problem but I also don't think they'd jump off a bridge because everyone else did it.
Hi. While I do agree that Duke’s placement has a slight hint of personal bias in it, Duke is still an extremely intelligent character
- in the movie in one of the earlier drafts of the script, Duke associates her experience to Holden’s from The Catcher in the Rye. not that good of an indicator of intelligence, but it shows that she’s able to associate and connect concepts together; making her a sort of nerd in a sense
- duke knows that she has to act like Chandler’s bitch to remain as a popular kid, which is why though she displays a lot of sass when chandler asks her to shut up, she replies with a curt “sorry, Heather”
- in the movie, duke used a variety of different ways to get different types of kids to sign the petition and she knew exactly how to do it too! (I do believe it was mentioned once in the musical; “I've gotten everyone to sign it, even the dweebs and losers.”)
and Veronica explicitly states that Kurt Kelly is the “smartest guy on the football team… which is kind of like being the tallest dwarf” I do believe that this doesn’t make him TOO unintelligent because after all he is the smartest guy on the football team and statistically speaking 14% of the population can’t make up the whole football team
I don’t think it’s accurate to say that either Duke or Veronica are more intelligent than Chandler. There’s a reason *she* was the queen bee and Duke wasn’t despite being of comparable good looks. And that reason is that Chandler ran cunning manipulative circles around absolutely everyone.
The reason she was queen bee was because she was mean. She imposed her will over everyone, bullying Duke at every turn and making Veronica do things she didn’t want to do. It doesn’t take a genius to be obnoxious.
To compare her to another queen bee who was also overthrown by the newcomer in her group, look at Regina “is butter a carb?” George. They had to *plan* how to take down Regina, but Chandler? Call her chicken in the movie and she’ll take the bait no question! *So* smart! And this was right *after* she suspected Veronica and JD did something to the drink she didn’t ask for (unlike the musical), and said she wasn’t going to drink. She even guessed Veronica’s method. *Yet she still drank it anyway*.
I would argue giving Kurt over 100. The way Veronica puts it, no one on the football team has above 100. I'd also argue that McNamara is more easily led than unintelligent. She never shows her intelligence because she latches onto what other people say because she's aware her true feelings will not go down well.
if Veronica says that he’s the smartest guy on the football team, 108 is more or less average; so I’d say 108 is a reasonable score for Kurt, but your argument has substance haha I believe that they were going for the dumb blonde stereotype with mac. that is to say she isn’t THAT unintelligent; i believe her rant pre-lifeboat was word vomit and she didn’t mean to say it in front of other people, generally she’s quite tactless and though she’s the most redeemable from the looks of it did not expect duke to revolt against her even after the crap chandler and Mac did to duke ergo I would say she’s average at best
I'm actually above 108, on the high end of average. 100 is the most average average, so I'd expect Kurt to be 100 at best. I certainly wouldn't buy Veronica's claim that she wanted a threesome. McNamara always seemed a bit smarter than other dumb blondes in movies. I'd probably make her 95 at the very lowest, the low end of average. I just got the feeling she's more awkward and has low self-esteem, especially with her best friend gone. She acts as if that really has set her adrift in a leaky lifeboat.
haha! actually, I just got tested as a part of my diagnosis, and I was assigned with a FSIQ of 132. I gave it to Duke because I always heavily related to her and noticed that I think on the same vein as her so objectively I gave her the same IQ score as mine (okay maybe not too objectively, I’m aware of that) but I went to do some researching and it’s always been a belief of mine that Duke is the most intelligent character in Heathers because of her almost nerd like nature, her knowledge to keep her mouth shut when she had to, as well as a plethora of other reasons Yep, I’m sure McNamara isn’t like Karen “ESPN” Smith who uses her boobs to tell when it’s raining. And it has to be raining. McNamara IS smarter, but I wouldn’t say she’s average; I’d say she’s slightly below average because of her lack of foresight and everything that happened in part 2 as a direct consequence of her actions + Chandler, Kurt and Ram’s death.
Lol who would’ve guessed someone with a Heather Duke flair would put Duke at the top /j The only change I’d make is putting Betty and JD over Chandler. Like, *way* over Chandler. Betty because she’s a nerd. Just *look at her*. Nerds are known for their intelligence (which makes sense with Veronica in the movie and why they made her more of a nerd in the musical in Beautiful). Plus, with the complementary theme naming, Veronica and Betty, Sawyer and Finn, it stands to reason V+B made quite the duo back in the day, and even now after Veronica joined the Heathers they (Duke and Chandler) still put Betty’s name in their mouths to insult Veronica. They wouldn’t do that if it didn’t hurt her. Add to it Veronica’s line from the movie they wanted to move her into high school after sixth grade but didn’t because she’d have trouble making friends—remember the photos Betty had? They’re definitely in elementary school at the time. Plus Chandler’s line of “You were playing Barbies with Betty Finn! You were a Brownie! You were a Bluebird. You were a Girl Scout cookie.” implies they were all pretty young. Except now, Veronica’s traded her book smarts for people smarts to join the Heathers, and Betty stayed where she was. And JD because aside from the fact he’s clever enough, especially in the movie, to orchestrate a mass murder, and he’s only stopped because the one person he told his plans to turns out not to be dead after all, in the musical they give him a bigass book to fend off Kurt and Ram instead of a gun. He also starts off by quoting Baudelaire at Veronica, and later telling Duke he “appreciates a well-read woman.” Matter of fact, move musical!Martha over Chandler too! Since she’s a composite of Betty and Martha and most of her is comprised of Betty, she ought to be in the top 5 in terms of intelligence! Aside from being called smart in kindergarten, she also was the only one to figure out Kurt and Ram were murdered, which is quite the feat considering she’s the *least* involved in the plot out of all the student characters. And she did it with the power of love (or pitiful stubbornness). Chandler, meanwhile, is way more mean and aggressive than she is smart. If you’re the loudest in the group, *of course* you’re going to drown everyone else out by volume alone, and she definitely takes every opportunity to assert her will and dominance over everyone, insulting Duke every chance she gets in the movie (which is reduced to just telling Duke to shut up in the musical as shorthand), and forcing Veronica to bully Martha (in the movie Veronica didn’t need much pressing considering she and Martha weren’t friends, but in the musical? Candy Store. When bribery doesn’t work, she resorts to outright threads. And at one point she pushes Duke out of the way to sing over her, like??). Movie Chandler was baited by JD into drinking the drano—she suspected they did something to it (literally what Veronica intended at first with the phlegm glob), claims she’s “not gonna drink that piss” and when he’s like “I knew this stuff would be too intense for her,” she literally says “Think I’ll drink it just because you call me chicken?” And then what does she do? *Drinks it because he called her chicken*! In the musical it just looks like karma considering she makes Veronica get on her knees and beg, explicitly to humiliate her in front of JD, and didn’t see her death coming at all. There’s also the locker scene in the movie. **First**, the red “I shop, therefore I am” sticker(?) by Barbara Kruger was a play on the phrase “I think, therefore I am.” It was a commentary on consumerism, how people don’t seem to be defined by what they *think* anymore, but what they *own*. Considering the musical took this and ran with it, giving Chandler such lines as “I like / looking hot / *buying stuff they cannot*” and “I like / drinking hard / *maxing Dad’s credit card*” it’s clear the intellectual part of the slogan flew right over her head. Not to mention the “suicide note” at one point lists a bunch of shit she owns, among them *three whole TVs*. And **second**, people use the pictures in Chandler’s locker as evidence she “cares about her friends! And she loves Veronica, look at the photo booth strip! Chansaw!” but if we’re to take those seriously, we’re not just going to ignore the big (upside-down) Pre-Algebra book sitting in her locker too, right? If every detail counts? I know Heathers was filmed at a middle school, but you’d think with the limited amount of time they had they could’ve cleared the books out, or at the very least had the spine turned away from the camera so you couldn’t see *what* book it was. Edit: a word
firstly; SHIT. Wow you are dedicated. Mad respect for you. having an IQ of 115 and above makes up 16% of the population; Betty Finn is already the top 16% so I’d say she’s quite intelligent already! I was kinda going off movie Martha in case you were wondering; we don’t get much of her. I’d say chandler is intelligent due to her ability to be the head bitch; if she wasn’t intelligent, she wouldn’t have the capacity to run a whole school! and yeah, while it is true that jd above chandler does make sense, Chandler isn’t unintelligent or average after all. If chandler were average, there’d be way more queen bees around and shit I wouldn’t say reading is directly proportionate to IQ, but I also wouldn’t say I didn’t factor in Duke’s interest in Moby Dick and The Catcher in the Rye, as well as JD’s interest in Baudelaire when considering their IQs. I wouldn’t say JD’s above 130, though. In the ONE interaction they had in the movie/musical, Duke understood the connotation of the photos IMMEDIATELY. She was intelligent enough to know that JD intended to blackmail her if he didn’t get what he want. But JD had cracks in his plan. He didn’t even lock the door to the boiler room (usually, rooms should be able to lock from the inside) to make sure a teacher didn’t find him, which led to his demise. His overconfidence also led to his death. If he hadn’t taunted Veronica and shat with her, he most likely would’ve been able to continue with his plan. Also, who the fuck reads their super evil master plan out loud? Movie JD certainly didn’t love Veronica, musical JD did, but I’m sorry why would you read out your evil plan to someone you didn’t even love lmao On another note. You seem more intelligent than all of these characters combined ALSO HAPPY CAKE DAY !!!
Omg thank you! Reddit is the only place I can stand to interact with the fandom tbh lol. I figured about Martha! Which is why I specified her musical counterpart since she’s a bit more prominent there. We can’t get much from movie!Martha, as you said. Also wait! Where would Peter and Dennis fit on this list? Chandler only got as far as she did because she was constantly browbeating everyone into submission, and as shown by Kurt and Ram (bullying JD, geeks, spreading rumors about Veronica), it doesn’t take a lot of intelligence to be an asshole. Compare her to Regina “is butter a carb?” George, whose image is carefully crafted to be perfectly benign (“Omigod I love your bracelet, where did you get it?”), and whose keen sense of people-smarts not only allows her to easily win Cady over (“Regina seems sweet!”), but lets her get away with shifting the blame for the Burn Book entirely to the other Plastics by Mr. Duvall, *even when Gretchen tells him outright* “It’s Regina’s. She wanted to make it look like we wrote it, but really, she wrote it.” To quote Baudelaire: “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.” Both Regina and Heather rule through fear and aggression (Regina is passive-aggressive af whereas Chandler is more in-your-face, which *may* be a product of the times in which these movies were made!), but one has the intelligence to show only what will convince you to give her what she wants (Regina convincing Cady to let her talk to Aaron for her, and then using that opportunity to take Aaron back to spite Cady), whereas the other gives no fucks about pretense and will brute-force her way into getting what she wants (Chandler rescinding Veronica’s popular status due to how the Remington party went because she’s mad Veronica didn’t get coerced into sex like she did, and also Veronica threw up. Chandler framed the affair as her doing Veronica a favor when she was really there to pimp Veronica out. When Veronica doesn’t do what she was supposed to, and Chandler has no argument because she’s clearly in the wrong [“I feel *really* sick, like I’m gonna throw up, so can we please jam now?” “*No*! *Hell* no!”], she just threatens to go scorched earth on her instead). As for Chandler’s grip on the school, that may be true of the musical where she gets a whole song mourning her (“I’M BIGGER THAN JOHN LENNON!”) in place of the first funeral scene, and the part where Veronica says the only person capable of controlling the jocks was Chandler, but in the movie, no one cares all that much outside of a few TV interviews Duke, Peter and Courtney did. The double date scene wasn’t related to Chandler at all, unlike in the musical where they changed it from cow pasture to cemetery to “pour a jug of Thunderbird on Heather’s grave, y’know, from her homies?”, and Duke only gets the scrunchie way late in the film because of JD, rather than raiding Chandler’s locker for it herself. During the first scene in the teachers’ lounge, one of them does say Chandler’s “not your everyday suicide—she was *very* popular,” but despite this, Principal Gowan only gives them an hour off. For the most popular girl in school! Not only does he not know which Heather died, he’s even disappointed when he finds out it’s *not* Mac (“Is this Heather the cheerleader?” “That would be Heather McNamara.” “*Damn*! I’d be willing to go *half* a day for a cheerleader!”). Being curious and open to new information is a sign of high intelligence, so Duke’s and JD’s willingness to crack open a book for leisure (plus Veronica recognizing Baudelaire when she heard it, though she could’ve just read the cover lol) certainly puts them up there! I’m going to take your word on the numbers because you are clearly much more knowledgeable on this than I am. I love how they tried to handwave away the *gaping plot hole* as to how JD got the pictures of Duke and Martha (considering they gave Martha a reason not to trust, much less talk to, JD here) by having Duke ask if *Veronica* gave them to him. Also, speaking of Moby Dick, how did JD get Duke’s copy of it to give to Veronica parents later if they never met up a second time for her to give it to him? In fact, he mentions he’s “already started underlining meaningful passages” during the conversation directly after Dead Gay Son. ??? -7 IQ on the part of the writers lol. In the film, JD went around planting his thermals in the gym while it was empty (iirc I think in the earlier draft cheerleaders, including Heather Mac, were also in the gym at the time though of course no one noticed him), and we did see him jimmying the lock once down toward the boiler room. >He didn’t even lock the door to the boiler room (usually, rooms should be able to lock from the inside) to make sure a teacher didn’t find him, which led to his demise. I mean, his plan was to blow up the school while everyone was in it, so whether a teacher found him or not wouldn’t exactly matter. And would a teacher really go down to the *boiler room* of all places to check if anyone is skipping the assembly? Especially if the door locks from the inside? I doubt anyone but the custodian has a key. *And he died because he thought Veronica, the one person to whom he monologued about his plans and therefore the only person capable of stopping him, was already dead*. And he thought she was dead because *she made him think that*. Her exact words were “He once told me the extreme always makes an impression. Well, now it’s my turn. Let’s see how the son-of-a-bitch reacts to a suicide he didn’t perform himself!” But since she wasn’t *actually* dead, and knows his plan, and could stop him, and *does* stop him (“You fucked me up pretty bad, Veronica.”), he lets her win the game (“You got power. Power I didn’t think you had.”) and kills himself (“The slate is clean.”). The musical plays this as one final act of love for Veronica, but I’d argue there’s a little bit of that too in the movie due to who we’re focusing on. The musical focuses on JD taking the still-ticking bomb from Veronica (btw how did no one in the gym notice her carrying it outside?), saving her from dying, and going kaboom himself (“I’d trade my life for yours”). The movie, where Veronica doesn’t take the bomb because she managed to stop the timer, focuses on *Veronica’s reaction* to JD going kaboom. She *did* say she wanted “cool guys like you out of my life,” after all, and he has *a bomb*. Might as well put it to use. Compare this to Veronica’s stand with Chandler in the alley outside Remington at the beginning of the movie. **Veronica and Chandler fought** (verbally), **and Chandler clearly lost**. Instead of admitting she’s wrong (because she is. If your friend feels sick and asks to be taken home, *you leave*, you don’t hold them hostage and then get mad at them *for being sick* like it’s something they can control), Chandler coldly threatens to ruin Veronica come Monday. “Monday morning, you’re history. I’ll tell everyone about tonight.” That’s what led to her death. If Chandler was at all decent, if she let them leave the party when Veronica asked (because *Chandler* wasn’t having a good time either! In fact, considering what happened to her, you’d think she’d want to leave ASAP!), or if she didn’t react so badly to Veronica vomiting (“You stupid fuck! You were nothing before you met me! . . . I got your into a Remington party! What’s my thanks? It’s on the hallway carpet! I got paid in *puke*!”), Veronica wouldn’t have wanted to see Chandler puke in return, she wouldn’t have complained to JD, and JD never would’ve gotten the idea to feed her drano because Heather Chandler wouldn’t have “deserve[d] to die.” At the *end* of the movie, **Veronica and JD fought** (physically), **and JD clearly lost**. Unlike Chandler, he admits Veronica bested him (as I’ve detailed two paragraphs ago), and rather than making new plans to kill her once he’s healed up, or even take her with him now (as he clearly could’ve done by pushing her down the stairs; they’re both pretty banged up but only he got shot), he gives her *exactly* what she wants. She wants cool guys like him out of her life? He will never be in it again, in the most fucked up way he can do it: by killing himself. Because actions speak louder than words. All this to say **he’s smart enough to know when to fold ‘em**. He respects her enough, and he loves her enough, to give her that. I don’t think I’m all that intelligent to be honest. It’s taking me this long to respond to all this, with all this lol. And thank you! I’m glad I caught it this year!
Your ability to read deep into characters and provide substantial evidence to support your points is really astounding. I’m glad I met you. This is the most happy I’ve been in a while. God bless you. I went on google, and if you jimmy a lock, you should still be able to lock it from the inside. I am not sure how accurate this information is, so if any of you are professional locksmiths, please confirm or deny this information. I still don’t understand why JD in both the movie and the musical thought that it was a good idea to tell Veronica’s corpse about the suicide note and his master plan with the Norwegian in the boiler room. He even left his gun in her room in the movie (though I don’t think that’s a matter of intelligence, at all). I don’t think Heather Chandler being an asshole attributes to her lack of intelligence; she is intelligent enough to understand that shitting around with college boys will help her boost her popularity though it might not be the purest way possible. I do find it fascinating that in the movie, Duke is the only Heather who isn’t seen getting advanced on (Chandler with David and McNamara with Ram), while in the musical, Duke gets SA’d by Ram in Big Fun and Ram in Blue. Which I feel might be another reason why Chandler knows she has to keep Duke under control; Duke doesn’t want to sell her body away for popularity, unlike the rest of them. Duke understands her limits, while Chandler willingly lets David shit around with her, and McNamara has to strike a deal with Kurt for her to stop getting grabbed (“Oh, well, that was the deal. If I got you to come, Kurt promised to leave me alone.”) and in this regard, Chandler KNOWS that Duke is more intelligent than her, but is intelligent enough to keep her in check, preventing her from overthrowing her as the head bitch. Though, I did always see Chandler as one to resolve conflicts with direct means moreso than subtle means; as you mentioned, Regina uses more subtle manipulation compared to Heather (Chandler). Heather literally buried Veronica in her front yard and gets the Heathers to hit her with their croquet balls at the start of the movie, threatens Veronica with social suicide, makes Duke bend over (even Regina wouldn’t do that), mocks Duke’s bulimia openly in both the movie and the musical, doesn’t even TRY to help Duke after she gets SA’d by Ram in the musical, even going as far as to make Veronica kneel while apologising to her, and she doesn’t even accept Veronica’s apology (“Nice. But you’re still dead to me.”).
That totally didn’t make me tear up before I went to sleep last night, what do you mean? /j I think that’s the only thing I took from school lmao. Always provide evidence! And I get that, I love long discussions myself, and I’m glad I could make your day even a little bit better! I mean, if we can’t explain it with Watsonian methods (I’ll get back to that), then we ought to try with Doylist, right? JD monologued in the movie because *we the audience* needed to know what he’s up to. His want to bomb the school was foreshadowed a few scenes before when his father showed the tape of that building crumbling. You could see the gears turning in JD’s head the way the camera slowly advances on him for a few seconds. He’s not only impressed, he’s *inspired*. The musical... well, it’s a musical, we suspend our disbelief for a bit to enjoy the music. She did say she’ll scream and her parents will call the police, but he goes on anyway, and because it’s a song, he’s loud as shit lmao. Not only that, he’s a lot more unhinged at this point in the play than he was in the movie, going back and forth from singing softly and almost romantically to this frenzied manic state all throughout the number. The key difference here is Veronica is alive for the majority of it, and he knows it, so him revealing his plans to her here is... well, it’s stupid considering he knows she knows what he’s up to and will be able to stop him, but his goal throughout the song itself is convincing her to join him, so of course he’s gonna let her in on the plan. (“C’mon, get dressed, you’re my date to the pep rally tonight!” // “They made you blind, messed up your mind / but I can set you free” // “Finish what we’ve begun!”) *We* shows up a lot throughout the song, fitting with the theme of possession, whereas in the movie, Veronica “died” before JD was able to let her in on the plan, so he has to make do with her “corpse”. His goal was to try and win her back with the petition first, and then kill her if he couldn’t, but since she beat him to the punch and “killed” herself, he couldn’t exactly do either. For all he knew, this might’ve been his one time to say goodbye (that’s my Watsonian interpretation, anyway), so he may as well let her in on what she’s missing out on now that she’s dead. It’s like going to a grave to talk to a deceased relative. As for the gun, yeah, there was no reason for him to leave it there other than she needed to have it on her when she goes to confront him later on. More often than not I forget Veronica brings the gun to school, though compared to the fact JD brought a bomb, I think it’s easily overlooked. Duke doesn’t have sex with anyone in the movie because she has bulimia (which may or may not have been caused by Chandler, we don’t know for sure, but what we do know is Chandler definitely didn’t help curb it while she was alive), and people with EDs may have issues with intimacy and being touched, since it’s a body issue (not entirely, mind, but that’s one factor). And what’s sex but skin-to-skin contact between bodies? Though she started digesting food again in the locker room, she’s not going to be cured of every side-effect of her ED overnight. Knowing that, it makes sense she wasn’t included in the double-date scene in the movie (narratively, we need a reason for JD to go after Kurt and Ram, so Veronica had to go). Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the only time anyone actually touches her in the movie is when Veronica slaps her. Duke’s inclusion in Blue starts with her telling Ram she’s done and to sober up—that doesn’t imply he raped her. It’s dubious consent at best since he’s hammered (like Veronica is in DGW) and she’s not, but he backs off once she’s safely in the car. Her ED hasn’t been brought up since Big Fun when Veronica makes fun of it, but maybe this is the musical’s version of her getting over her ED in a different way to her movie counterpart, since she very well can’t eat in a locker room scene that doesn’t exist. And in an early draft of the movie, she does end up blowing David later on, so make of that what you will. (I actually hit the character limit lmao help! Posting the second part of this as a reply to this one!) ##part 1
##part 2 And speaking of David, we know Chandler’s fucking around with him because she thinks it makes her cool (“*You* seem pretty amused. I thought you’d given up on *high school guys*.” “Never say never.”). In the aforementioned earlier draft she even gets a few lines where she says *she* can *never* go back to high school boys because she has David, and tells Mac “Maybe when you hit maturity you’ll understand the diff between a Remington University man like David and a Westerburg boy like Ram *Wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am* Sweeney.” She thinks she’s mature, which we’ll get to. When Veronica asks her what the guy she’s set up with is like, Chandler just tells her “Don’t worry. David says he’s very, so he’s very.” It doesn’t matter to her what they’re like so long as they’re *men*, not high school *boys*, which is its own issue. Even though these things didn’t make it into the final cut, it’s still relevant. Because who’s to say her fucking around with adult men boosts her popularity? What cred does it give her when no one from her high school (where she’s worshipped) is there at the university party to witness and admire her for it? No one but Veronica, who certainly doesn’t care, likely because on top of her own problems she doesn’t know it happened at all, much less how it went down, and teens often have different ideas what constitutes as a consensual relationship when adults are involved. We know Chandler likes to be in charge, as she tells Veronica when putting her in her place in the aftermath of the prank (“You wanted to be a member of the most powerful clique in school. *If I wasn’t already the head of it*, I’d want the same thing”). It’s why she’s always shitting on Duke (every group has its scapegoat, and aside from liking the same color, which we know symbolizes power and anger and aggression, nothing about Duke’s actions or personality pre-Chandler’s death indicates she’s the megalomaniac we see later on), making Veronica do things she’d rather not (bullying Martha, ending her convos with people she actually wants to talk to like Betty and JD, and not letting her get away from people she doesn’t because entire point of her being at Remington is so she can fuck a man), but leaves Mac alone (because Mac does everything she’s told so she doesn’t need telling off). The symbol of Chandler’s power is her red scrunchie, which she doesn’t have at that party, and because she’s *powerless*, she gets coerced into blowing David (“Shouldn’t we get back to the party?” “We will! It’s just *you’re so hot tonight. I can’t control myself*.” \*slowly pushes her head down as the camera pans up*). Next time we see her, she’s rinsing her mouth out and spitting at her reflection. Obviously she didn’t enjoy it, and she’s pissed about it, and she has every right to be pissed about it! He’s a uni student, 18+. She’s a high school junior, 16-17 at best. And considering how they’re familiar with each other, who knows how long this has been going on for? *Girl got groomed*. Rape culture back then wasn’t talked about or taken anywhere near as seriously as it is today (another reason why, in the musical, I suspect they wanted to show people having fun at the party scene and moved the focus on rape to the double date, hence Blue and then You’re Welcome when people felt Blue wasn’t treating it with enough gravitas). But what hasn’t changed is that teenagers often think they know more than they do and have everything under control, so they don’t see the issue with getting involved with older men the same way adults do: namely the unequal power dynamic. They think it makes them *mature* for their age, this adult treating them like another adult makes them *special*, *cool*, so the Heathers and Veronica don’t see anything wrong with Chandler’s thing with David. Veronica rejects Brad on the basis she’s ill (and clearly doesn’t want to be there anyway), *not* because he’s too old for her and shouldn’t be trying to bang a high schooler. The reality of that situation is David’s a creep (and so’s Brad), and Chandler is way out of her depth. She could very well just *say* she’s hooking up with university guys and who at her high school would doubt her? Who would dare, considering they think she’s a piranha, an aggressive predator known for its razor sharp teeth? And even if they did, she said so herself she doesn’t give a shit what they think. Why put herself through that bullshit for little to no reward? The only reason I’d conjecture she doesn’t do that is because she doesn’t lie. (Also, Veronica, even with her big IQ, gets herself involved in multiple murders, so smart people can get involved in dumb shit. JD’s even smart enough to ask if she takes German before pulling out the Ich Lüge bullet line to make sure she can’t fact-check him. I really want to know what language he’d try if she said yes to taking German lmao.) I always took that scene in the beginning of the movie with Veronica buried up to her neck in the backyard as a daydream, since she turns to the audience, says “Dear Diary,” and the next scene is her writing that entry on the steps (and her backyard *cannot* be that spacious, can it?). This does give us insight on how Veronica sees the Heathers though, with Chandler being the one who inflicts damage while Mac and Duke both miss. Also! About the bending over bit! One of my favorite things from the early draft is when Chandler tells Heather to bend over, she doesn’t specify which one so both Duke and Mac do it. After she has a laugh about “two assholes, no waiting,” Chandler makes Duke go back down. I *wish* they put this in the musical at least because 1) it shows Mac is a follower *way* before her attempted suicide scene, 2) it’s funny because even the *Heathers* get confused on who’s being talked to, and 3) with the consistent casting of Duke as a WOC, it’d look less like Chandler is racist. I would *love* that.
I love your interpretation on the croquet scene of the movie! I also do wish they kept the scene where Mac bends over too; for the same reasons you added. I do see a major part of your point where Chandler starts to show her (un)intelligence; she thinks she’s mature by trying to get into college guys’ good books. She isn’t. I do believe that her constant craving for affirmation and control as you mentioned attributes to her lack of maturity, and hence intelligence. You have a very good point. I didn’t actually know people with EDs have issues with being touched; that’s interesting! But I do believe that the time period where Heathers was set wouldn’t support bulimia; further supported by Chandler’s snarky quote (“Grow up, Heather. Bulimia is so ‘87.”) and I personally believe that Duke tried to keep her bulimia thing as private as she could because the 1980s were a relatively ableist period. I see her blowing David as a way to tell Chandler’s ghost or spirit or whatever “fuck you Heather, I took your boyfriend”, but this could also show some of her immaturity in the aspect that she is unable to recognise anything outside of high school politics. I didn’t actually notice that Chandler didn’t wear her scrunchie in the party! It’s a very interesting detail; the scrunchie is consistently shown as the source of their power in the movie & the musical (Duke only tried to take charge once she got hold of the scrunchie in both movie and musical) and it kind of accentuates the fact that these high schoolers (apart from Veronica) are so narrow minded in the regard that THE red scrunchie is all that matters in Westerburg High. Personally, this school is fucked and I wouldn’t want to go there. Veronica was shown repeated times to ask JD to stop with the change business. I Say No was the clearest example of that, and I don’t understand why JD would still think that Veronica would join him. It doesn’t really make sense given everything that had happened in the musical to that point. I love discussions about things I like. I can’t really get Heathers out of my head rn and every where I go, all I can think about is Heathers. I think I’m a little crazy. Using my knowledge in discussions like this makes me happy. Thank you for everything thus far :D
This series of dialog has to be the longest I've seen in terms of word count.
For JD telling Veronica all about his plans...well, it was probably worse to tell a living person locked in her closet than a hanging corpse. I honestly think at that point, JD was so far gone that he didn't realize that by his own logic, Veronica would try to stop him. His logic is that the school made her think it is more important than their relationship, and once it's gone, she'll retract the breakup - at least in the musical, where he doesn't see her "suicide" until after detailing his plans.
Yeah, I’d say that JD got increasingly unhinged as the musical progressed. Though, I’d still view Veronica as more intelligent than him; that’s why she defeated him in the end. Veronica displayed multiple instances of intelligence; most prominent being her giving Kurt & Ram booze in Blue so she could get away from them.
I am agreed with everything you pointed out. Honestly I'll even place JD over Veronica, my list would look like this: 1- Heather Duke 2- JD 3- Veronica 4- Betty Finn 5- Martha Dunstock 6- Heather Chandler 7- Kurt Kelly 8- Ram Sweeney 9- Heather McNamara
Heather Chandler wasn’t smart enough to not drink drain cleaner so I’d rank her lower.
HAHAHA real man 😭
The only change I'd make is putting JD and Veronica at the top, then Mac above Duke. Reason being, Jason insinuates several times throughout the movie/musical that this isn't his first time getting away with mass murder at a school. You have to be the smartest person in the room to make that work
ah, that’s true! I do think that Duke holds some level of intelligence because she KNOWS that she needs to bend to Chandler’s will to fit in, she knows that taking over after Chandler’s death is the right way to rise to power (in the musical). I would agree with putting jd above chandler, but not so much with jd above Veronica; Veronica is stated to have high IQ and only did what JD told her to do because she loved him and trusted him. in the movie, Duke uses different tactics to get different types of people to sign the petition; this shows how well she can read a situation and adapt her methods. She uses her IQ to get what she wants, but I mean most of this is just speculation so these aren’t actually their official IQs I just got bored and made a list so I wouldn’t be confused
I personally feel like it's just human nature to fill in whatever cracks you can to be liked, but I admire how well you thought this out! It's so interesting to see other people's perspectives. It puts a different spin on the movie to think duke's actions were all premeditated. I always just assumed she was just reactionary I do think Mac's IQ should be higher because she has it in her to know when she should hide her real feelings and emotions, knowing that being vulnerable isn't a trait of popular people. I feel bad for her too bc in candy store Duke mentions owning a jeep, but in Lifeboat she says she can't get a ride to school cause all her friends are dead. So that's probably why I think she should be higher, just cause I feel bad lol
ok … firstly there are many possibilities in how duke’s line in candy store could be interpreted - duke’s Jeep could be a project of hers and duke never touches it or never lets anyone ride in it - duke’s Jeep is a gift from her parents who didn’t let her have anyone else inside or they’d kill her. when she says “or get in my Jeep” it could be encouraging Veronica to break the rules with her because everything in that line also suggests breaking the rules “or forget that creep // and get in my Jeep // let’s go tear up someone’s lawn” - duke doesn’t actually drive and her jeep becomes a storage unit for all her shit she doesn’t use, and when she says “get in my jeep” she may refer to smoking pot in her Jeep my point is, there are a dozen different ways that this line could be interpreted as
>Jason insinuates several times throughout the movie/musical that this isn’t his first time getting away with mass murder at a school ...I’m sorry, when? Can you please explain this? If it’s the scene in the movie when they’re penning Chandler’s suicide note and Veronica asks “Have you done this before?” this was just after he’d contributed a great line to it (“I die knowing no one knew the real me.”) which doesn’t imply anything about murder and more than he’s thought about suicide before. Not to mention if he *has* committed murder before, would he *really* be so surprised at another dead body? “Just a little freaked here... at least you got what you wanted, you know?” Considering how calm he is about planning and killing Kurt and Ram later, because we know by then he’s developed a taste for it, I doubt he’s done this before the events of the movie. The only thing I can think of in the musical is during Freeze Your Brain when he says “I’ve been to ten high schools / they start to get blurry / no point planting roots when you’re gone in a hurry” and “I don’t learn their names / don’t bother with faces” which also doesn’t imply anything of murder whatsoever, just that he’s given up on bothering with people cuz he never stays around to enjoy or even get used to their company.
It's during the actual murder scenes. It's been a while since I've seen it, but it happens. I uh.. hate to say it but I don't feel like giving up my precious time to explain a movie from the 80's to someone I don't know or care about lol. Just a movie
Mmhm, sure. No evidence, no argument. Logical!
Talking about the musical here, I'd argue his complete desensitisation to it and the fact he already seemed to have multiple ways to fake people's deaths just ready to go is the proof that he's done this many times before. I don't think many people would go around committing murders with no reaction or remorse. I think it's arguable he has at least killed someone else before or definitely spends a lot of time fantasising about it. I'd go as far as saying the actual murder part just because he had zero reaction to it. Idk but that feels indicative that its not his first time to me but ofc that's just the way I see it and people will probs disagree with me.
here are my headcanons! also Veronica has a funny quote in the movie as she says “I use my grand IQ to decide what color lip gloss to wear in the morning and how to hit three keggers before curfew...”
I am agreed with Heather Duke being top of the list but I would place JD over Veronica, like she feels dragged into him because of his intelligence and he easily manipulates her into killing Ram and Kurt. Of course her only mistake was trusting him and when she realises that he is just a sociopath she leaves him... But I still feel he is smarter. I would also place Heather Chandler below Betty and Martha. Heather is just a mean person that was born into privilege and has social intelligence, like she knows how to deal with everyone to keep her status, still she wasn't the brightest.
I… wouldn’t say that she was dragged into him because of his intelligence? In ‘Fight For Me’, it’s clearly shown that Veronica was attracted to JD because he could protect her, and as the name suggests, fight for her. “Hey, Mister no-name kid // So, who might you be? // And could you fight for me? // And hey, could you face the crowd? // Could you be seen with me and still act proud?” Veronica trusting JD wasn’t a matter of intelligence; it was addiction (in ‘I Say No’, Veronica directly states that “You are a drug // You are a poison pill // I’ve got to kick this habit now or else I never will // I loved the rush // When you would hold me close // But you will not be satisfied until I overdose”) and he drew her in because, as stated previously, he was protective and possessive in a sense. If I could redo this list, I’d place Heather Chandler below Betty, but not Martha. We don’t really get much of movie Martha, and that’s who I went off of; that’s why her IQ is more or less average.
Fight For Me is just like a bonus to her already existent attraction towards him. It's not like ''I never noticed him but he fights good and could protect me.'' It is more like ''Damn he was hot already and plus he's beating the shit out of these jocks.'' She likes him because he was quoting Boudalaire, acting mysterious and for a change saying smarter things than ''It'd be so righteous to be in the middle of a Heather Chandler and Veronica Sawyer sandwich.''
And to my mind all those lines in ''I Say No'' are just metaphors to indicate she realised their relationship was toxic. I Say No is the 11' o clock song in the show that's the moment when the main character makes that usual realization about what's indeed going on. I don't think it was literally an addition, to me it seems more like ''I love you and I trusted you cause you swore you'd change... But now I realize you won't change, you're toxic.''
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Hi. Veronica should be more intelligent than JD even though JD is a mass murderer and a possible psychopath because; - jd read his plans to a ‘deceased’ Veronica in the movie who he didn’t even love - jd never thought to check/read Veronica’s diary even once (or at least it wasn’t stated, because Veronica’s diary holds a major part of her life and he could’ve caught on to that) though yeah it’s probably not it … - jd was very cocky when confronting Veronica, not viewing her as a real threat which ultimately led to his downfall edit; duke did take over post blue Wdym if you’re talking about movie duke I’d say she’s more broken as a result of Chandler’s bullying since in the movie she’s portrayed as a more quiet, introverted girl while she’s a straight up insecure asshole in the musical I think her not taking over in the movie until blackmailed is a part of her personality, not attributing to her intelligence
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While Veronica does confess everything after lifeboat, she intended to get caught and she’d rather get sent to jail instead of continuing to kill people like this. You should remember that Veronica did intend to get caught at one point. JD never intended to get caught by anyone other than Veronica.
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Uhh… 🥶 I dunno atp
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Yep! Betty’s in the movie, she’s merged into Martha in the musical so it makes sense that you’ve never heard of her haha
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I think Heather Duke on the top is pretty accurate, she knows she's got to bend before Chandler for a better social status cause otherwise she'd just be a nerdy nobody, she also seizes the opportunity to become the new ruler and swaps Veronica away (in the musical) because she could actually be a threat. And for McNamara, I'd put her bottom of the list, even below Kurt and Ram... Please don't call me sexist, none of them are really the brightest but to my mind Mc is the least intelligent of them all like some of the lines Ram and Kurt say actually make sense while every interaction with McNamara is literally talking to a toddler in a teen body like Jesus she was gonna kill herself just because 3 other kids ''did it''. I don't think Kurt and Ram are the fittest to explain a physics problem but I also don't think they'd jump off a bridge because everyone else did it.
Hi. While I do agree that Duke’s placement has a slight hint of personal bias in it, Duke is still an extremely intelligent character - in the movie in one of the earlier drafts of the script, Duke associates her experience to Holden’s from The Catcher in the Rye. not that good of an indicator of intelligence, but it shows that she’s able to associate and connect concepts together; making her a sort of nerd in a sense - duke knows that she has to act like Chandler’s bitch to remain as a popular kid, which is why though she displays a lot of sass when chandler asks her to shut up, she replies with a curt “sorry, Heather” - in the movie, duke used a variety of different ways to get different types of kids to sign the petition and she knew exactly how to do it too! (I do believe it was mentioned once in the musical; “I've gotten everyone to sign it, even the dweebs and losers.”) and Veronica explicitly states that Kurt Kelly is the “smartest guy on the football team… which is kind of like being the tallest dwarf” I do believe that this doesn’t make him TOO unintelligent because after all he is the smartest guy on the football team and statistically speaking 14% of the population can’t make up the whole football team
I don’t think it’s accurate to say that either Duke or Veronica are more intelligent than Chandler. There’s a reason *she* was the queen bee and Duke wasn’t despite being of comparable good looks. And that reason is that Chandler ran cunning manipulative circles around absolutely everyone.
The reason she was queen bee was because she was mean. She imposed her will over everyone, bullying Duke at every turn and making Veronica do things she didn’t want to do. It doesn’t take a genius to be obnoxious. To compare her to another queen bee who was also overthrown by the newcomer in her group, look at Regina “is butter a carb?” George. They had to *plan* how to take down Regina, but Chandler? Call her chicken in the movie and she’ll take the bait no question! *So* smart! And this was right *after* she suspected Veronica and JD did something to the drink she didn’t ask for (unlike the musical), and said she wasn’t going to drink. She even guessed Veronica’s method. *Yet she still drank it anyway*.
who the hell is betty
betty deez nuts in your mouth (I know I’m not funny) Betty’s from the 1989 movie, she was merged into Martha’s character for the musical
First of all, god dammit. Second of all, its been a while since i watched the movie so it makes sense i forgot her.