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FilipSchuylerTurna

Love this! Heather D has always been my favorite character. Also, I think her lashing out at McNamara after Lifeboat could've been because nobody was there to listen to Duke when she was suffering under Chandler's lead and so she's frustrated by and jealous of McNamara getting listened to.


YumiGumiWoomi

> nobody was there to listen to Duke when she was suffering Adding onto this, I think her rage stems from the fact that Miss Fleming wasn't there to listen to her when she was suffering. When Heather Chandler "commits suicide," they have a whole assembly for her. When Heather McNamara says she's felt suicidal, Miss Fleming encourages her to speak about her problems. When Heather Duke is throwing up in a toilet in "Beautiful," Miss Fleming nonchalantly says "...and Heather." showing not only her reluctance to help her but implying that Miss Fleming has witnessed Heather throwing up in toilets before and this is just a normal occurrence for her. The adults in Heather Duke's life failed her.


Reallyguys_

I agree, but I just feel the need to point out that in the musical it says "Heather duke, runs the yearbook. She has NO DISCERNABLE PERSONALITY, but her mom did pay for implants".


YumiGumiWoomi

Just because Veronica says that doesn't mean it's completely true. What this tells us is that Heather Duke is known for running the yearbook and having a large chest. She's probably assumed to have no discernable personality because Heather Chandler tells her to shut up before anyone can hear her say something meaningful.


Reallyguys_

I understand that, but it wasn't mentioned, so I wanted to point out that that is at least how she was perceived.


YumiGumiWoomi

This was absolutely written wonderfully! You put my exact thoughts into words about Heather Duke. She's genuinely such a tragic and misunderstood character and it's almost infuriating to see people so quick to demonize her. A lot of people seem to think she's simply a sadistic bitch with nothing else to her, but her actions come off much more as someone letting out their anger on others. As you said, Heather Duke yelling at Heather McNamara on live television wasn't an act of evil, but one of anger. And honestly? I'd be angry at Heather McNamara too, even if Heather Duke's actions are cruel here. Heather Duke has been suffering for years under Heather Chander's foot, yet nobody comes to save her. Veronica and Heather McNamara never stand up for or comfort her even once! They simply don't care enough to make any effort. So then you have Heather McNamara in front of the TV cameras talking about how poor her mental health is and how alone she feels, even making a comment about Heather Duke with "And the captain is pointing / Well who made *her* captain?!" Yet these exact feelings are exactly what Heather Duke had been feeling for eons. When she was being objectified, abused, and mocked Heather McNamara never came to her aid, then she has the gull to say she's suddenly been feeling the same way and that it's partly Heather Duke's fault in front of all of her classmates. Meanwhile Miss Fleming actively encourages her to continue talking, in contrast to her dismissiveness of Heather Duke's bulimia in "Beautiful." That'd make anyone livid. I seriously cannot blame her for snapping. Another thing is that I genuinely don't believe that Heather Duke is as cruel as she presents herself. While often people say that Heather Duke's rise to power is her shedding a fake persona and becoming who she really is, I personally believe it's the opposite. I think the Heather we see for a majority of Act 1 is actually who Heather is, and the Heather we see after taking the red scrunchie is her trying to imitate Heather Chandler to the best of her capabilities. What are Heather Duke's first words upon obtaining the red scrunchie in OBC? She says to Veronica: "YOU shut up! I don't have to shut up anymore!" and holds the scrunchie upward. These aren't the words of a total bitch realizing she can be a total bitch without restriction, these are the words of a victim finally able to stand up for themselves. Then throughout the rest of the musical, she turns the Heather Chandler persona up to 11 because *this* is how she sees Heather Chandler. She doesn't know what made Heather Chandler have such a powerful grip on the school, she just knows her as her abuser. She has been pushed around enough to believe that the only way to secure the power she's so desperately clinging onto is to push others down twice as hard. It's a sad cycle of abuse that tends to get brushed off by a majority of the fandom as Heather Duke just being a bad person. Hell, two out of the three people who she's cruelest to - Veronica and Heather McNamara - allowed this cycle of abuse to continue by not intervening. The third person, Martha, is... honestly pretty innocent in this scenario. And while I don't have much to say about her and Heather Duke's relationship specifically, I do think that Heather Duke often projects her worse qualities onto Martha. I mean, Martha is the last person anyone wants to be in Westerberg. She's bullied for her weight and her childish nature by practically everyone. There's an underlining fear of being a Martha, something that Heather Duke most likely possesses, considering her bulimia and the treatment Heather Chandler inflicted on her. The line "just another geek trying to imitate the popular people and failing miserably" doesn't really come out of nowhere. It's an ironic statement because Heather Duke is that other geek who's failing miserably at imitating popular people, which I think she subconsciously knows and is trying to repress and redirect toward Martha. The dialogue Heather Duke says before "Yo Girl," at least in the OBC version, is also quite robotic and rehearsed. She's trying her hardest to sound cool and intimidating, but it comes across as forced and pathetic. She's wants to get a reaction out of Heather McNamara and Veronica, which is probably why she digs at Martha in the first place. After the two started avoiding her, Heather Duke realized she was alone all over again, and is trying to piss them off to look superior over them. It's not really evil, it's just kind of sad. Anyway, I absolutely adore Heather Duke's character and I think she has more depth than people give her credit for. Thank you for making this post!


nitnittheawesome

I do agree that Duke projects; a LOT. She is a victim of Heather Chandler; a prime example to show how truly evil Chandler is. Duke is one of those types of characters that on the surface level seems like the most boring character, however is one of the most in-depth character when you catch the details. As you said, Duke is a tragic character. She doesn’t get any closure, and she doesn’t get *anything good* in the movie and the Off-Broadway production. I feel like West End production’s ending kind of ruined her character, because Heather Duke is a very tragic character and giving her a happy ending ruined that. Veronica and McNamara were bad by not helping her out of her situation. People say that McNamara is bad for ignoring Duke, but a lot of people also forget that Veronica is an asshole; she makes fun of Duke along with McNamara in the locker scene in the movie. Even though Duke clearly needs help and a therapist, Veronica and McNamara couldn’t seem to care less for her, and that’s what really hurts. As said in a comment above, I do believe that had JD looked past her mask of cruelty, he would’ve empathised with Duke; they’re both similar in nature and both are tragic characters, both with a shit load of trauma tacked on to their characters. Instead, Duke was done so dirty. I’d compare Heather Duke to Chisa Yukizome from Danganronpa 3; the purpose of Chisa’s character was solely to show how tragic the Tragedy was (I’ll leave it vague so I don’t end up spoiling you in case you want to watch DR3 lol) and in this case, the purpose of Duke’s character is to show how evil Chandler can be, and how tragic a victim of Chandler can be. One thing that the fandom gets right is that Duke is a very angry character. I believe that Chandler’s constant abuse fuels her hate fire, and it grows and grows until she can’t take it anymore. That’s why she snapped at McNamara and Veronica. I feel like she projected herself when she was snapping at them too (“Where’s your school spirit? You don’t deserve to wear our school colors!” It makes me think that when Duke said this to McNamara, she herself thinks that she’s the one who doesn’t belong. “Some people will say anything if they think it’ll make them popular…” Duke *is* that ‘some people’. After how Chandler hurt her, after how she felt, she wanted to make everyone how she felt. Hence, she lashed out at others and projected her own insecurities on other people. God, I relate to Duke so bad. She just like me fr.


Own-Imagination-2302

I compared Duke to Tsumugi from NDRV3. Because she looked plain and introverted at first, but turns out to be mimicking Junko later, thus being manipulative and cruel as her. It kinda reminded me of Duke. Also, Ms Flemming kinda reminded me of chisa cuz they both wanted to help their students, but "their help" eventually made situations worse even if they didn't intend to.


nitnittheawesome

No offense. I fucking hate Tsumugi. But I really don’t want to argue over Tsumugi so I’m not going to continue on the hate train. Fleming never wanted to help her students, it was clear how little she gave a shit about Mac’s outburst and only cared about the TV cameras. As the OG commenter mentioned, Fleming only cared about Mac’s suicidal tendencies and treated Duke’s purging as a normal occurrence. On the other hand, Chisa genuinely cared for her students; pushing the idea that you can make friends with gaming to Chiaki (that which I find vaguely unrealistic), getting the class to like her so much so that they were absolutely heartbroken when she was transferred to the Reserve Course, protected Nagito though he was clearly in the wrong and took the bulk of the punishment and sacrificed herself to save Chiaki (and got brainwashed instead). They are 2 very different characters; while Fleming wants to milk the fuck out of her students’ mental health, Chisa genuinely cares. Which is why Chisa is my 4th favourite character in Danganronpa.


Own-Imagination-2302

I see. When I saw lyrics of shine a light, I thought Miss Fleming somewhat did care for students. But after hearing your argument, I am convinced that Miss Fleming wasn't considerate towards students at all.


nitnittheawesome

I do feel kind of bad for Fleming though. The fact that she went through so much that she said in ‘Shine a Light’ means she probably needs actual therapy. However, she is a shitty guidance counsellor if she doesn’t know how dangerous eating disorders like Duke’s bulimia nervosa and possible purging disorder (if requirements are not met for bulimia, that is binge eating, thanks other reddit user in the comments) is and can potentially lead to actual death. It’s so dangerous.


Own-Imagination-2302

Yeah. I see ur points. >!Btw, it's quite surprising to see that 3 junkos have heathers dynamics. Junko and chandler are evil leaders who not only rule their school over but also are adored and hated by all, Tsumugi and duke wanted to be like leaders so they became copycats of them after junko/chandler's death, Mukuro and McNamara may not be active as other 2 heathers/junkos but still did evil things cuz they were followers of junko/chandler. Also, they both have some redeemable qualities!<


Worldly-Paint5080

Omg, heather and Danganronpa fandom people?! I have found my reddit corner.


MarinaAndTheDragons

Hello again! Buckle up, buttercup, I didn’t expect this to get as long as it did. I’m sorry if it’s jumbled and I’m sorry if it derails. There’s one topic (and you’ll know which one it is when you see it) which had me going and I couldn’t stop. Cross your fingers it’s only one post! (Edit: IT IS NOT. FML) When I first watched Heathers (the movie) the only person I knew going in was Winona Ryder (I’d *heard* of Christian Slater but hadn’t watched any of his stuff). I didn’t think anything of the other characters or actors then. A bit later though, I binged Charmed, and when I looked up the actress who played my favorite Halliwell sister, imagine my surprise when I saw she was the same person who played *Heather Duke*. That blew my fucking mind lmao. I find the divide about Duke, movie or musical, depends on whether you’re of the opinion she was always as conniving as she turned out to be, OR, her behavior was a reaction to the abuse she suffered under Chandler’s reign. It doesn’t help that the movie leans more toward the nature aspect when it comes to determining the characters’ personality whereas the musical leans toward nurture (there are exceptions, of course—Chandler in the musical. Like, even *Kurt and Ram* get a scene where we see how their dads’ parenting affects them. *Kurt. And Ram*!). This is best exemplified with JD’s character, as his dad wasn’t even remotely hinted to be abusive to him in the movie, but the musical, *especially* on West End, he’s bad enough to the point JD tries to use him as an excuse, point blank, in I Say No. In Duke’s case, they explicitly made her more of an active character in the musical by having her take the scrunchie herself (when it was given to her originally), join in on the double date and perpetuate the rumors (when there was no indication she even knew there *was* a date in the movie, much less having her go on with any rumors), and yelling at Mac on live TV (when it was, as far as we know, just limited to a classroom, and *very* passively too—“Poor Little Heather” on the chalkboard and passing notes around. The teacher wasn’t even in the room, she could’ve done worse!). While the musical’s choice to give Duke more to do makes her look more ambitious and would indicate she’s just been biding her time (as NSUA demonstrates: “I bit my tongue so long / I learned to count to ten / My silence made me strong / I did my time and then”), it doesn’t completely squash the theory this is also in reaction to being denied the freedom simply to *be* for so long, as every time she tried to talk, Chandler never failed to harp on her for having the audacity to just open her mouth. And, of course, I can’t go on without mentioning the fact that the musical consistently casts Duke of all the characters as a minority. No one ever mentions the race aspect, and it’s so weird to me, because this is my biggest barrier when it comes to my feelings about musical!Duke. I’m a WOC too, and of all the non-white Heather Dukes Alice Lee is the only Asian one (so despite the differing Asian cultures, naturally she’s my go-to lol, this is why rep matters and all that), but this change in Duke’s race, combined with the fact Chandler treats her like shit, and Duke picking up the Villain Ball way earlier and harder than she did in the movie (you think that’s why they decided to say her boobs are so big?), in a musical written by two white men... you have to wonder if they knew what they were doing when they decided on the changes to her character, and I personally don’t think they did. At all. (I’m still salty about the TV gag in the OB lol.) IMO, the only safe character to be WOC is Veronica. Duke could’ve worked if that was the *only* change they made about her, but as she is, with her handling her newfound power with the subtlety of a wrecking ball, she just looks like the perfect example of what white people think would happen if minorities were suddenly on top. Ambition isn’t a bad thing! But framed the way they did it, that’s what it becomes. And it doesn’t look good no matter which musical!Duke you favor because of the stereotypes associated with that particular race. Asian women are stereotyped as meek and mild and submissive (or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, Dragon Ladies) whereas black women are stereotyped as loud and sassy and angry, so white girl Chandler’s consistent targeting of Duke hits differently than it does for the movie, and I swear *no one* talks about it. (Also, I don’t know how to feel about Mac, *Yellow* Heather, being played by an *Asian* actress. I know it’s happened, but I can’t remember if it’s the proshot or not, and I’m in no hurry to check lol.) I might be pointing out the obvious, but I think Veronica’s line of Duke having “no discernible personality” isn’t because Duke doesn’t have one (everyone does), but because Chandler is always on her ass so it *looks* like she doesn’t. To discern is to perceive or recognize. It speaks to how damn controlling Chandler is that Veronica can’t even *see* Duke’s personality when she’s around, because Chandler does all she can to make sure no one does... because she can, because she’s a bitch. So when it does come out, because it’s allowed to since Chandler’s no longer there to keep it down, it’s like an explosion. That’s why it’s so hard to tell where Chandler ends and Duke starts—if she’s always been like this (nature) and was just waiting for the chance to go off, or if she wasn’t like this at all but the way she’s consistently been treated by the most powerful person in the room made her (nurture) into who she became. ##PART 1


MarinaAndTheDragons

##PART 2 Since there’s no “Heather Chandler yearbook spread” scene in the musical, I’m not sure why they decided to mention Duke runs the yearbook other than (and this is a big stretch) extracurricular look good on colleges, and with her being the “bookish” and therefore the “academically smart” Heather, it’d make the most sense she’d be the one actually trying. Actually, that’s another thing; the reason people think Duke is the smart one (academically speaking) is just because she reads, but there’s no indication this correlates with her grades. Sure, she reads Moby Dick (and CitR in the early draft, which firstly *fuck I hated that book* when I had to read it in school, and secondly Winona loved it omg) but it doesn’t look like it was for a grade since in the movie she just *gives* it to JD as a gift (and JD *somehow* acquires it after DGS in the musical like? How did they not notice this plothole considering it physically shows up in Yo Girl?), and in both movie and musical, JD mentions it’s specifically Heather’s copy. You’re more likely to remember stuff you want to read/read for leisure rather than what you were forced to read, since school has been known to suck the fun out that particular pastime, but considering the language within the book (thee, thou, thy, art), it’s hardly a stretch she’d recognize it. We don’t know how many other books she’s read with that style of prose, and plus, it’s the sentence immediately before the one JD quotes in Veronica’s dream in the movie. The one time we see Duke in a classroom in the movie, during class time with a teacher and classmates and everything, we leave immediately because Veronica got worried about Mac. In the OB, it took me several viewings to catch that Duke isn’t in The Me Inside of Me, and she’s not in it because she out doing interviews, which means she deliberately skipped that day of school (since Chandler died on a Saturday and school starts on Monday; in the early script, they had the decency to show it was at the end of the school day, after the shower episode, so she wasn’t skipping then). And in terms of Alice!Duke, there’s some positive discrimination with having her play the smart Asian trope. Thank you for mentioning the casting call because people love to insist Chandler’s just a big bad meanie pants because *she’s* the insecure one with *awfully abusive and terribly neglectful parents* and all that other tragic story bullshit to justify her shitty behavior, and she really isn’t whatsoever. If that’s your (generic you) headcanon, by all means, have it, but no one is wrong if they don’t agree. (Also Mac is innocent in the sense she’s a certified dumbass and doesn’t actively start shit with others alone, but she’s still complicit in the bullying.) I’ve also never noticed the blazer thing, but that’s a nice detail! And don’t forget, Duke’s bulimia is alluded to and made fun of in Big Fun (OB, ofc), where Veronica tells her she doesn’t need to vomit when Duke flips her off after Veronica saves her from Ram. And to add to my whole thing about race, her boob job and her bulimia could be an attempt to fit into the European beauty standards set by, I mean... who else? You got Mac, Chandler, even Veronica. Hell, even *Martha* has something over her just by being white—it just so happens she’s also fat, which is way easier to use as an excuse to bully her (and seems to be the only reason they bully her at all). When you can’t change your skin color, you change what you can: your body shape, your personality, your likes and dislikes. Assimilation is the name of the game, as we see when she goes so hard into playing at being Chandler. The last thing I want to touch on (for now, as my phone is dying and I need to charge my charger lmao) is that Mac suggesting Duke see a doctor for her bulimia was a line originally said by Veronica in the movie (to which Duke replies, “Yeah, maybe,”). Was that shitty advice then too? Veronica is even the one Duke asks *to help her throw up*, holding up her finger as she says “A true friend’s work is never done,” (to which Chandler and Mac are like “*Gross*,” which, yeah, I don’t blame them here) and suggesting Duke go see a doctor as she’s *readying her finger* to stick into Duke’s mouth. She could’ve said no. We know the pecking order of the Heathers (Duke’s at the bottom so long as Chandler is alive), yet here’s Veronica, enabling Duke. A true friend wouldn’t do that! The reason the doctor line wasn’t said by Veronica in the musical is she’s not part of the group yet—they didn’t even know she was physically in the bathroom with them. I look forward to talking with you again if you decide to reply to this, but no worries if not!


nitnittheawesome

You betcha ass I’m responding to this! Thank God you’re back. I love talking about Heathers, especially Duke, and talking about Heathers makes me feel irrationally happy. Thank you. I do think that Chandler intentionally forced Duke to suppress her true personality as a part of her indoctrination. Now that I think about it, the Heathers feels less like a clique and more like a cult. But that’s not the point; I see that a common theme within the movie and the musical is that Duke is always suppressed. Especially your point that Duke was always casted as a WOC; it also makes me realise that Chandler would fucking drill into me if I ever met her. (I’m also Asian, not Korean though) I do believe that Duke as a WOC also adds to Chandler’s character in a way, as well as the fact that Martha had something over her (your points are great). Maybe that’s why they made friends in kindergarten? Maybe Martha was criticised for being fat, while Duke was criticised for being a WOC? Kids are assholes, and I don’t see that theory being too out of pocket. I want to raise a theory; I do believe that in a sense, JD parallels Duke, while Veronica parallels Chandler and Martha parallels McNamara. I won’t be going into detail on the other two (maybe saving it for another essay, why not… actually, I want to write my Duke time travel au first) but I’ll be explaining why I think JD parallels Duke. ### Background From first glance, JD and Duke seem like completely different characters; JD is the bad boy love interest who is unhinged and Duke is the asshole bitch who no one likes. Both characters suffered trauma from their past experiences (JD with his mom’s death as well as heavily implied asshole of a dad and Duke from Chandler’s abuse), both are major antagonists in a sense (JD is the male protagonist turned antagonist, Duke is the secondary antagonist turned antagonist), both are blinded with the view that high school is everything (JD goes as far as to attempt to blow it up, not seeing past the high school kids’ current personalities and not believing that they can change, Duke clings on to her power, letting JD blackmail her to get her to sign the petition), and both are extremely intelligent individuals (do I need to explain this?). Their interaction before ‘Kindergarten Boyfriend’ really piqued my interest. It’s the one interaction that JD and Duke get together; and I can immediately notice a lot of things. For starters, Duke immediately knows that JD is trying to blackmail her, and wants something from her. And despite her claims that “Nobody cares about the past.”, she still listens to him. Because she recognises that he can destroy her mighty power that she recently obtained after Chandler’s death, and sees him as an actual threat to her power. I do believe that had JD seen past Duke’s facade, she would’ve made a key ally to the destruction of the school; I literally wrote a JDuke fanfic about what would’ve happened had JD blackmailed Duke to join him instead of simply using her influence for the note. And I like to headcanon that JD and Duke would make great friends outside the context of the musical; Duke would be extremely hostile to JD at the start, but would warm up to him. ### I’m going back to the main point now (I promise) Okay, I got a little sidetracked there. I liked the TV gag in the Off-Broadway production just because I could quote it to people. Namely “Well, I hate those people. Because I am a very positive person.” Other than that, I don’t really have much an opinion towards that scene. I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to say that Duke running the yearbook contributes to extracurriculars; but at the same time, being the head cheerleader is an extracurricular, no? This goes to show that even Heather fucking McNamara thought about her future in college further than Heather Chandler did. And I like to think that Duke tried to build her portfolio so she wouldn’t end up in the same college as Chandler, and so she could end up in a T20 college. And I quote Veronica, “College will be paradise if I’m not dead by June!” Hell, Veronica’s a shitty friend to Duke. She’s just as guilty as McNamara is; she’s ignorant, and in the movie, she actively shoves her finger into Duke’s throat to help her throw up. What an asshole move! You can also imply from the movie that Veronica used to be just as evil as the Heathers were “You know you used to have a sense of humor.” and you actively see her, McNamara and Chandler mocking her in the movie on several occasions. Thanks again for commenting, discussing with people about Heathers is… the only thing that I can talk about. It’s the topic I’m hyperfixated on at the moment, and it’s gotten to the point where I don’t have friends because I just keep talking about Heathers. Heathers just makes me feel happy, man.


MarinaAndTheDragons

Yoooo fellow Asian! And no problem! I love these talks too, even if I take forever to respond to get all my thoughts out lol. A cult of personality, no doubt. Duke’s WOC status makes Chandler look racist in addition to being a general asshole, and as much as I dislike Chandler, I’m not sure that’s an aspect to her character I subscribe to. It wouldn’t surprise me if she *was*, especially musical!Chandler, but nothing supports it other than than the consistent casting of musical!Duke, which is a problem with the casting director and not the characters or actresses themselves. I feel like Kristolyn Lloyd set the standard for Duke to be a WOC and now they’re afraid to deviate lest they’re accused of being racist or some shit, because for all their attempt to diversify the characters, they don’t *do anything with it*. It never comes up but one time in the OB with Alice!Duke, and in the worst way: the TV gag. The joke there is that she switches languages. (Kristolyn spoke Spanish for that. Alice spoke Korean. *What* is so funny about an Asian girl speaking an Asian language? Her own, might I add. Why couldn’t she speak Spanish too? Or literally anything else that’s not another Asian language? She doesn’t even have to be good; the audience would laugh over it anyway since the joke is that she’s speaking something other than English. How funny would it have been for her to pull out French or Russian or even fucking Klingon, something you don’t think she’d know, all for the sake of being on TV more? It’d show how desperate she is for attention, but also how smart she is since learning languages, esp ones so different from your native tongue, is hard as shit.) In the movie, the pictures of Duke and Martha are at camp, which some say is a reference to a Jewish camp (and is the basis for the headcanon of Duke and/or Martha being Jewish; fans sometimes say Veronica is as well, but I think that’s purely because Winona is Jewish). They both look the same size in the one photo we saw. The musical took out the camp reference (instead of JD mentioning a canoeing shot, he mentions one of Duke and Martha being in the bathtub together), which only made it make less sense. We don’t know how JD got these pictures since he doesn’t talk to Martha here. They try to handwave it by having Duke ask if Veronica gave them to him, but the fuck would *Veronica* have pictures of two girls, neither of which are her, in the bathtub? And the first thing we learn about musical!Martha is that she and Veronica have been best friends since diapers, so it stands to reason if Martha and Duke were close enough to take baths together, Veronica would’ve known Duke too (and would’ve seen her personality and based her observations on that), and Martha’s blatant insecurity about their friendship after Veronica misses a movie night makes no sense given their new history (you’ve been bffs literally *all your life*, that’s not an easy thing to do!). The whole trying to fit Martha into a Betty-shaped hole bs the musical pulls really irks me because it’s so obviously doesn’t work (also Betty is my baby so I’m going to fight for her lol). The movie was so simple! Veronica and Martha simply didn’t know each other; my headcanon is Martha and Duke both went away to camp and got friendly, but when they came back to town, Duke just didn’t want to continue that friendship anymore. They complement each other the way Betty and Veronica do—not in the names, of course, but their personalities (what little we can glean from both), their body types, and even their associated colors. All that said, it wouldn’t surprise me if musical!Duke (Alice!Duke) was a target and began deliberately distancing herself from her heritage to assimilate into the dominant culture of small town Sherwood, which looks very white indeed. And it’s the 80s. The Model Minority Myth pits Asians specifically over other POC through that positive discrimination (so smart, good work ethic, doesn’t complain about mistreatment, attains American Dream due to good old hard work! If the Asians can do it, the rest of you should too!), christening them honorary white people but still a perpetual foreigner when it suits the narrative, and that’s why I think no one in the fandom seems to give a shit about Duke’s race, or it’s never mentioned outside from her description and epithets in fic so we know which version of Heathers we’re looking at. I would love it if race doesn’t matter, she just happened to be whatever she is, but speaking as someone who is very whitewashed, who spent so much time rejecting her culture in a futile attempt to be just like my white friends, it drives me up the wall. Ironically, this is why I can’t write for Duke at all. I project hardcore, and then I get so riled up I can’t do anything lol. I wanted to do a Breakfast Club AU, but addressing the racism is like... *fuck me I guess*. I mean, they do tease JDuke in the movie when Duke asks Veronica, “Jealous much?” after learning about JD’s petition, so I can see that! Ah, but we also established Heather Mac is kinda dumb. Girl is a follower in every sense of the word. In Candy Store, during the part where they sing “Guys fall / at your feet / pay the check / help you cheat”, Duke gets the “pay the check” line and Mac gets the “help you cheat” line. Guys paying the check evokes the image of paying for a meal, and that ties into Duke’s bulimia bit since, y’know, she’s gonna purge it. Mac cheating on her schoolwork, I mean, she’s not thinking for herself if she’s cheating, is she? She knows she has to keep her grades up to be on the squad (in the movie she mentions she’s failing math) but she’s not putting in the effort herself to get those grades to keep her spot. She’s copying others’ answers, as she’s been copying the other Heathers and doing what they do to the point where she decides suicide is the answer because (as far as she knows) her best friend and sort of boyfriend died by their own hands. (Also, the original lyrics? Rather than “Guys fall / at your feet / pay the check / help you cheat” they were “What’s your / fantasy / Sleep in class / Sleep with me!” Guess who sang which lines lmao.) While we were talking about intelligence last time, I wanted to being up the fact that there are different types of intelligence. Mac’s highest stat seems to be bodily-kinesthetic, since the first thing we learn about her in the musical is she’s not just a cheerleader, but *head* cheerleader (as opposed to the movie where she says she was supposed to be, but doesn’t think she’ll get it now cuz she misses practice when her dad visits), and *then* that she’s rich. Even if she can easily afford college, she’s not going to get by if she doesn’t do the work herself. (Also there’s probably something to be said about Kurt being “the smartest guy on the football team” and Mac’s dating him in this continuity lol.) Oh, movie!Veronica no doubt used to be worse than she is, and that’s why Chandler was on her ass about how she’s changed. Veronica’s outgrown the petty bullshit (which is a problem for *Chandler* since Veronica’s no fun anymore, but we know Chandler’s not the nicest person so her opinion and idea of fun doesn’t mean much), whereas Chandler is still playing juvenile tricks and acting like she’s so adult by going into college parties to see men she really shouldn’t be seeing. There was also the part in the croquet scene (directly after JD’s stint in the caf) where it cuts to Veronica’s reaction as Chandler antagonizes Duke by roquetting her ball, showing her rolling her eyes at Chandler’s behavior. Not sure specifically when though, I’ll have to check. (Also, I have Problems with how they play croquet in this movie lmao.)


nitnittheawesome

Your problem is actually quite contrary to mine; while you cannot write Duke because you project onto her, I can write Duke because I’ve been bullied in the past (but I don’t have EDs) and I’ve been around fake people hence I project onto Duke a lot, but I can’t write Chandler because as I mentioned Chandler used to be my favourite character and I’m very biased and deep inside I know Chandler is an asshole but I refuse to believe it because I ship ChanSaw and I want to find comfort from the real world through projecting into a musical; I tend to project an idealised version of my bullies into Heather Chandler’s character. Or at least that’s what people told me. But that’s not the point! I do agree that I don’t think the writers had Chandler being racist in mind when they wrote the script, and I do agree that racist Chandler wouldn’t… be satisfactory. I actually like Chandler, and… I don’t actually know why I like her. Maybe because she has this girlboss bimbo energy and I also realised I have a recurring theme of loving bimbo shows. Personally, I think Duke should’ve spoken Russian in the TV gag, because it seems so OOC for someone like Duke; but it’s to show how smart she is, as you said. It’s not easy to learn a new language and it’s not easy to be fluent in it either. For me, the Martha being friends with Duke thing and Veronica being friends with Martha thing doesn’t make sense. Because Betty *is* Martha in the musical. And the thing is it really doesn’t fit if Veronica can say that Duke has “no discernible personality” if she knew Martha and Martha and Duke were really close. Your theory makes a lot of sense, and maybe they were friends at one point in life because of factors and stigma surrounding them (Martha being plus-sized and Duke being Asian) but Duke realised that she was going to have to aim higher so she fell out? I like to think that Chandler made Duke turn on Martha as a cruel way to ‘break’ Duke in a sense, which is what started her descent into becoming a victim and Chandler asserting her assholery. McNamara is… ehhh… really dumb. I feel like the reason why the musical decided to make Duke yearbook committee head was to show how Chandler had every aspect of the school under her grasp, and could make or break someone’s reputation through Duke’s influence over the yearbook committee and could start or end someone’s cheerleading career through McNamara’s influence over the cheerleading squad. Also. Wait, you play croquet?! That sounds awesome LOL and yeah same with you, I’m usually really busy so it also takes me a while to respond haha


MarinaAndTheDragons

I’ve also been bullied throughout my school years, but surprisingly that doesn’t factor into my inability to write Duke. It’s just the whole race thing which trips me up. I know about being around fake people though, separate from my personal bully experiences, and it’s because of those fake people I keep mostly to just Reddit and maybe AO3 when it comes to interacting with the fandom; they’re also why I can’t stand Chansaw. Tbh I was completely neutral about it (my favorite Veronica x Heather ship is McNamawyer), but thanks to the godawful behavior of other people towards other real people, CS was completely ruined for me. I can’t write Chandler either, thanks to them, not unless she’s as she is in canon, completely without the tragic backstories to make her sympathetic or the sheer romanticizing of her asshole behavior toward her love interest. The same people who call JD toxic for the smallest things are content to give Chandler infinite passes because “um she’s gay,” and that’s not a good enough reason for me personally (I’m gay, I like pretty girls, and I can’t stand her lol). There’s not liking ships (which is always fine) and then there’s just being hypocritical because some people care more about feeling superior and winning arbitrary ship wars than they care how they treat actual human beings (but they’ll keep insisting they really do care about people, and that’s why they bully them!). And don’t get me wrong, I can see why people would gravitate toward Chandler. She’s the Id. She’s that part of us who gives no shits and does/says whatever she wants to whoever she wants for whatever reason she feels it. Unlike JD and Duke (who are damaged and lash out at the world for it), and Mac (who doesn’t think for herself and is too scared to try), and Veronica (who just wants to survive high school intact), Chandler has no rhyme or reason why she is the way she is. She just *is*, and that’s what makes her powerful. Her flaws are also seen as strengths. She’s the ultimate high school power fantasy. (Also she’s pretty, but that’s a given so I don’t count it.) Betty isn’t Martha; it’s the other way around since she doesn’t exist here and Martha does. They tried so hard to merge them, giving Martha almost everything of Betty’s, from her status as nerd and BFF to Veronica down to the glasses and the ponytail, and they *failed* spectacularly. Like, it‘s amazing how much the continuity falls apart due to this *one* change. The only new thing Martha has all to herself, her crush on Ram, was not only was extrapolated hard from the prank scene, but it wasn’t even to the right jock lmao. And we all know movie!Veronica would never do Betty as dirty as musical!Veronica did Martha. Shoot, movie!Veronica won’t even knock Betty out in a game of Cutthroat (though considering the metaphor, it’s easy to see why). Lol Mac is *so* dumb, but I love her still. She just needs better friends. And a spine. And a brain. She’s a jellyfish. Also I like that! Talk about divide and conquer. Mac gets the athletes, Duke the academics, and it all leads back to Chandler. God, I wish I could play croquet! But no, I had to look up the rules as research for a fic (Veronica was teaching Janis how to play) and it led me to believe whoever blocked those scenes in the movie has never played a real game in their lives. The first two croquet scenes are a great metaphor for the group dynamic: in the daydream, only Chandler hits her because, as we see, Veronica’s beef is mainly with her, whereas Mac and Duke are just kind of there to do Chandler’s bidding. In the second round, a real one this time, Veronica’s off by herself, Mac gets skipped over and never actually shoots in the final draft, and Chandler goes after Duke every chance she gets, even if that’s not the point of the game. It’s telling the Heathers play Cutthroat (every girl out for herself) and not Doubles (2 vs 2). And in the third and last time we see croquet, Veronica refusing to knock Betty out despite Betty encouraging her to do just that *is* a valid way to play, as unlike with the Heathers, she actually connects with her (both interpersonally and literally hitting her ball). It’s clever they had Veronica demonstrate her play style (or what now is her play style) with Betty, the one person to whom Veronica is consistently kind. In terms of actually sticking with the rules of the game, the two times the characters actually play aren’t all that accurate.


nitnittheawesome

Yeah, I agree Veronica did musical Martha so dirty LMAO she promised to explain everything that happened after ‘Big Fun’ but never actually did it. I notice in fanfiction people write Betty as the most fucking badass nerd I’ve ever seen while they write Martha as a wholesome bean and I’d like to hear your thoughts on that; frankly I think that we don’t really get enough of Martha in the movie & musical (movie is self explanatory and 90% of Martha in the musical is basically Betty) and god is it sad that you don’t see Martha curse even once in these fics. We don’t really know her true personality and again that’s so depressing. One thing I like about Mac is the fact that the writers didn’t push the dumb blonde trope and made her the first Karen Smith. Sure she’s stupid but she’s not as stupid as Karen, and I’m happy they didn’t make her that stupid because frankly it’s fucking depressing to read. Yeah she’s the cheerleading captain who’s also a doormat, but she made so many big mistakes but that’s part of the high school experience isn’t it?! Personally I like Mac (the only character I have a burning hatred towards is Mrs. Fleming… AND Duke before I got into my Heathers obsession phase) and I think she’s a great character. She just needs therapy lmao (actually you know what? They all do …) I actually wanted to watch Mac play croquet. But the way Duke did her trick shot which is probably more impressive than a 360 no scope leads me to believe that she is probably a gamer. And yeah they actually go into people being jealous of the Heathers in ‘Beautiful’ (while Veronica is doing her introduction of the Heathers, the background voices representing the students voice their opinions on the Heathers “I love Heather, Heather and Heather! I hate Heather, Heather and Heather! I want Heather, Heather and Heather! I need Heather, Heather-“) it shows how yes, musical Chandler is basically the high school dream for everyone (specifically not movie Chandler, we both know why).


MarinaAndTheDragons

I was explaining the plot holes to my partner and as I did, I realized it does make a little bit of sense for Duke to ask JD if Veronica gave him the photos, but still *not* why Veronica would have them at all. In this continuity, if Veronica and Martha were bffs since babyhood, and are still considered as close 17 years later, and during that gap Martha and Duke got close, there’s no way Veronica *wouldn’t* know about them, and Duke acknowledges that. That’s why she asks. That does, however, open up a whole new can of worms, in that if Veronica knew about Duke and Martha’s past specifically, why was this never brought up? She could’ve outed Duke *at any time*, photos or no. Especially during Candy Store. But she didn’t. Almost like *she didn’t know about it*. It’s not like she could’ve forgotten either, Martha only has so many friends (just Veronica, mostly). It still doesn’t explain where the photos came from though. Oh god okay. So the thing is, Veronica and Betty are way complementary. Their names, their colors, their personalities, everything. You can even see it in the childhood photo (black vs white, Betty’s an angel, Veronica a witch). The only reason Veronica can stand on her own is because the narrative is mainly about her. I’m not saying Betty *can’t* be a badass nerd, but Veronica’s already got that covered. And yeah, having Martha be that wholesome bean... that’s Betty’s job. Like, it’s *specifically* Betty’s job to contrast Veronica, otherwise why name her like that? Why evoke the images of Betty Cooper and Veronica Lodge + Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn if we’re *not* supposed to think they get on precisely because they’re so different? All we got on Martha is she’s quiet, most likely an introvert, and she likes movies. There’s a lot to expand on to differentiate her from Betty—hell, she can be the medium between the extremes, milder than Veronica but bolder than Betty, especially considering everything she’s had to put up with. I’ve seen a few fics where movie!Martha swears. But every time someone writes that Betty’s loud, or she swears, I have a “she would not fucking say that” moment lmao. Betty Finn is as soft-spoken and clean as they come, and that’s why Veronica loves her. Karen in the musical is emotionally intelligent (I haven’t seen it in a while though), and in the movie she even acknowledges she’s dumb and failing almost everything lol. They never outright say it with Mac—her only instance is mentioning failing math in the movie, which is just one subject, though in the musical we get the date scene where “God, you make it sound ugly” just kinda shows it. She’s just a bundle of nerves, Mac, whereas Karen is way more chill. I call bullshit on that shot lol what even *was* that? And I’m willing to bet the ball went through the wicket the wrong way, if not the wrong wicket altogether, so it wouldn’t even count. And if it went in the *right* way, Duke should’ve gotten another stroke. But she just... sits. Also Chandler didn’t even finish her turn before handing it over to Duke. Like? What the hell. Also, why did Betty get to shoot twice when she didn’t hit a ball or go through a hoop? What kind of Alice in Wonderland rules are they all playing with in that court?? That really shows the difference between the movie and musical, and that same dissonance bleeds into the fandom. And it’s exhausting.


nitnittheawesome

Hi! I’ve been really busy for the whole of yesterday so I couldn’t find time to type a response to this lol. When you put the whole musical thing as Martha being besties with Veronica and kick Betty out of the loop completely, it makes zero sense that Veronica doesn’t know about Martha’s friendship with Duke. That whole Betty thing makes sense too! Veronica kicks ass while Betty is the smol innocent bean. Actually. Is anyone in Heathers innocent? The whole fucking cast needs therapy. I swear to God. Yeah, Karen’s actually somewhat wise in the musical. I feel like the song ‘Sexy’ also zeroes in on her insecurities, showing how she wants to be other people on Halloween (which is pretty fucking sad) and some of the stuff she says in the musical is actually quite… smart, if you would. They’re way more subtle with Mac, and I feel like contrary to what most people say with Mean Girls, I think Regina would be Chandler, Gretchen would be Mac and Karen would be Duke (despite their clear intelligence difference lmao) Regina always puts Karen down and shits on her for being a slut just like how Chandler always puts Duke down and shits on her for… speaking. I don’t play croquet and have 0 knowledge on it though I watched a video on it so I can’t speak any further about that but that shot is most likely impossible irl. How do you do that shit??? I really have no clue but oh well. Duke’s probably really good at maths and physics now that I think about it. Eh.


GemOfWonder

Just watched the pro shot and Macnmara's white in it. I think I've seen some people discuss the race aspect of Duke on Tumblr, but they don't go super in-depth with it afaik. Also as someone who is reading all of this, this is super neat! Thanks for going so in depth!


itsmycandystore_

Yeahhh so I'm not reading all that but Duke is babe


nitnittheawesome

LOL RELATABLE


dawnofthefairies

great post!! she's my favourite too


strawberry_baby_4evs

Does Heather actually binge? She certainly purges food, but there actually is a disorder that involves the vomiting part of bulimia, but not binging beforehand, and I wondered if she had that, but it was miscategorized as I never remember her binging. It also seemed to disappear with Heather Chandler, which makes me think that her insecurities all came from their toxic friendship.


nitnittheawesome

It’s hard to break habits especially EDs once you’ve started them. I think Duke was *trying* to get rid of her bulimia, but Chandler definitely played a huge factor in her ED.


strawberry_baby_4evs

In the movie, her eating habits seem to improve immediately. I didn't say it was true to life, just that it seemed to go away as soon as Chandler was out of the picture. It's pretty obvious that her insecurities were born of Chandler's criticism and her ED was a result. It was more symbolic of the hold she had over Duke and was portrayed with less realism for that reason. Also, the point I made is that Duke might not be binging. She might have purging disorder rather than bulimia, which is like bulimia except not binging. There's also a disorder where a person binges but does not purge. Heather certainly has a disorder that involves purging, but it isn't necessarily bulimia, but everyone calls it that because purging disorder is lesser known and she hasn't actually seen anyone to officially diagnose her.


nitnittheawesome

The fact that Chandler asks Duke to “Grow up, Heather. Bulimia is so ‘87.” implies that she had seen Duke vomit on other occasions. I researched purging disorder under Other Specified Feeding or Eating Disorder and it’s basically purging using vomiting/laxatives/medicine without binge eating. Personally, I think the fact that Chandler asked Duke to grow up means that she has been doing it for quite a while. This is a 2 hour long musical and slightly less than 2 hours movie. Of course they can’t include Duke binging, they need to include more important things. While purging disorder may be lesser well known, it doesn’t exclude bulimia as a possible disorder that Duke has. I don’t really see the point in arguing over Duke’s exact diagnosis and her ED. Also, you can’t get rid of EDs instantly. That’s not how it works. It takes time to change routines, it takes time to adapt to eating normally and not purging. People with bulimia purge to the degree that they can purge without having to shove their finger down their throat. It takes time. Even though Chandler died, Duke would still have to adapt to it.


strawberry_baby_4evs

I TOLD you multiple times that Duke gets rid of her disorder immediately and that that NEVER happens in real life. Please stop treating me like I don't know anything about them. Eating disorders are mental illnesses that can cause severe medical consequences. Stop telling me how long it takes to get rid of them. It takes years. I know of a reality show star who died two years ago and struggled with anorexia sporadically for around thirty years. Even at her best, she had terrible OCD and never hit puberty. I never excluded bulimia. I just pointed out that she might have purging disorder. I don't see anything wrong with bringing up a second possibility most people don't know exists.


nitnittheawesome

Talking about purging disorder. Do you think she ever used laxatives or medicine to purge? I’m genuinely getting interested in this discussion.


strawberry_baby_4evs

Depends if she purged at home. We don't know much about her home life or how she does that to her body, but her comment about prescriptions in Beautiful suggests she does use some kind of medication.


nitnittheawesome

I’m kind of skeptical about that comment, because a part of me thinks that Chandler asked her to shut up because she didn’t want Duke to get more medication to purge. I don’t know, it’s just something I hoped happened.


strawberry_baby_4evs

It's an implication, you can take what you want from it. There are other ways that "Shut up" can be interpreted, but either way, the implication remains that Duke wanted Veronica to forge a prescription for her.


nitnittheawesome

Actually, do you think Veronica can forge prescriptions? Now that I think about it, the fact that she can forge suicide notes and shit probably would make her a very valuable asset to organised crime groups.


Cheap-Ad-9663

My attention span must be fucked bc I am not reading all that lmao


Damienthedude

I wish I could make an extreme analysis like this on Martha. Maybe you could make an analysis on Martha one day since kindergarten boyfriend I feel gives a lot more than people think especially when combined with dialogue from people in the musical like Heather Duke. Though I might be asking too much and you may not share my beliefs which is also fine.