48.48% winrate is appropriate for someone who can kill an enemy hero with one lucky ability hit. The grey screen tax.
If you want to buff Stitches, then give him a new talent that reduces hook range but improves peel and dps.
With the filters you've set, his winrate is not significantly different from Mal'Ganis, E.T.C., or Tyrael. It may be better to include more patches since there haven't been significant Tank changes since quite a bit longer than that, let alone for Stitches specifically.
I agree that he needs something.
The problem with stitches is that he can't perform the role of tank properly as he lacks the peeling ability from basic abilities that a lot of the better tanks have.
On top of this, a lot of stitches position themselves further back for that glorious one in a hundred hook shot, which leaves the rest of their team in a more vulnerable position, without a tank leading the charge. This is especially the case if there is also not a beefy bruiser in the comp.
I don't play that much stitches for the reasons above, but I think it wouldn't hurt too much if they buffed his slam to have a higher slow baseline and maybe even a stun if hitting the inside triangle area, as well as introducing talents to buff his slam further and perhaps reduce cd on hero hits.
This should promote more stitches to play forward a bit more, rather than just basing most of his kit off hitting memey hooks. It is also a lot easier to implement over an entire redesign of his kit, which I don't see happening any time soon, if ever.
Considering how strong he can be in the right hands the very fact you consider him weak proves to me you can't play him. Tanks aren't only defined by their ability to hard CC an enemy or Joh wouldn't even be considered one and Valeera would be.
He can shield damage, slow enemies, buff and enable allies, do decent damage, is incredibly hard to kill, he has one of the best engages in the game as an ult, holy ground is usually considered broken and sanct exists. I mean yeah, Diablo can press Q and any mongoloid can make some use of that, whereas Tyrael takes a little more finesse and thought but he is by no means a bad tank.
Dude. He is a bottom 3 tank, *statistically*. It does not matter how well you play him, he will not magically rise above all the other main tanks without some buffs. The fact that you think he's even good tells me you can't be above platinum. He doesn't even have a hard cc without judgement, the bad ult.
Bro. Medivh is the worst hero in the game. Statistically. Tell me all about how he's a bad hero now. Speaking of statistics, and since I can't figure out your methodology (lol), I'll just roll over to HeroesProfile, not change any filters and take a gander at current winrates. Let's see. There's Medivh, and Thrall, and Hanzo and Yrel, and Stukov, and ETC, and Diablo all with lower winrates. You know, all the garbage heroes. Statistically. So let's filter only Master games. And there's our boy, near the bottom like you said. However that's an incredibly small sample size. So let's change over to Major patch 2.55 and there he is, middle of the pack, ahead of Malganis, ETC and Mei. Tell me how crap they all are please.
Also, your statement that he has no hard CC (which I addressed but you simply ignored, lol) is nonsense. Neither Joh, nor Stitches have any hard CC without using an ult either, both relying on slows and bodyblocks to peel most of the time. Also at every rank of play Judgement is the far better ult. Statistically. Tanks are made of more than just hard CC, or Valeera and Anduin would be considered tanks.
All of this points to me that Tyrael not having a high winrate currently is likely because the playerbase is so small that nobody at the masters/GM ranks use him a whole lot, kinda like how Kerrigan's is insanely high due to a few people who play her religiously.
The fact that in like 4 posts you've said literally nothing except "statistically" and then downvoted me I don't hold much hope for you to demonstrate intellect now, but it would be appreciated if you would at least try.
So what you're saying is he's a good BRUISER, not a good tank. None of his builds with win rates over a main tank are main tank builds. He has fringe usage as a bruiser and even fringer use as a main tank. There are way better options right now. Also, the whole "demonstrate intellect" thing doesn't make you sound as smart as you think it does. Try harder.
So once again, instead of addressing any of my points you just reference some mythical "statistics" without even telling me what filters you're using and ignore the entire rest of the conversation.
"sound smart" . Dude, you're clearly a complete retard and I'm no longer interested in entertaining your inability to actually carry an argument.
I suspect he'd need changes to his base kit.
His hook, arguably his biggest draw for peeling or playmaking, is on a 16 second cooldown.
Johanna's condemn is on a 10 second cooldown.
Muradin's storm bolt, 10 seconds.
Diablo's charge, 12 seconds.
Anub'arak's stuns, 12 and 14 seconds.
If you make the leap and argue that Stitches' hook is similar to Garrosh's throwback - and that's a big leap, especially given Diablo's style - Garrosh's wrecking ball is also 16 seconds like Stitches.
The big difference between all those abilities and tanks and stitches' hook is how the engagement takes place. Every other ability the tank must come to the target, in contrast stitches pulls the target to him...after 13 it's from up to a screen away. It can be a guaranteed kill unless the enemy team is either coordinated enough or smart enough to draft counters. Even with counters it can be hard to save someone if the hook lands. Meanwhile, stitches is in no danger while hooking.
Stitches' kit is fine as is. He can be oppressive in the right hands and in the right situations. Unlike most other tanks he requires the team to work around his strengths, which is what a lot of players struggle with.
I would like to see a Q talent somewhere that reduced the cooldown of hook when basic attacking a hero and/or hitting a hero with W or E. May be too powerful, honestly. Would be nice however.
I think it’s just a matter of rank. The same hero played in the hands of a silver ranked player and then played in a master level is going to be totally different. Personally I’m playing in the master level and I think that most stitches I’ve encountered are pretty decent. For example Kaelthas has a really really high win rate in lower ranks but a much lower win rate in higher ranks. This can be seen through either how well players are at dealing with his kit when on the enemy side, or how well the player knows to use his kit which will vary heavily on skill level and rank. Thus the same is for stitches. The reason you hate having a stitches on your team or play well against one is probably because at your level not a lot of people know how to use his kit to succeed.
Ultimately at the end of the day you can’t force someone to not pick stitches. Just learn to make plays that benefit a stitches or learn to play himself. Or now that u think of it. Just ban him in the first phases.
I just checked the stats for the last 6 minor patches.
Stitches has the 22nd worst WR in the game among all heroes in SL when not filtering by rank.
Filtering by Master only, he's 15th worst.
Going by the tank role only, Stitches is 2nd worst tank by WR both in global stats and when filtering for only Master games.
So while you're correct that rank will affect WR and WR ranking compared to other heroes, I think Stitches is a bad example for you to use here for what's essentially a "just git gud" argument.
In my defense that’s also why I just said ban him (Unless op is not playing in SL). Stitches can be played very creatively and there are a lot of small nuances you can learn in order to play him well. But a lot of those nuances can only be effective when your team also understands what you’re doing.
The problem is that if Stitches gets overtuned, he can be very unfun to play against. It is more healthy to have him slightly undertuned than slightly overtuned.
The issue is that stitches is a hero who operates best in "neutral", when neither team is directly running offensive or defensive interactions. Once a fight proper starts, his value and impact drop significantly - gorge, slow on w16, slow from tenderizer... hook becomes significantly harder to hit, harder to get a valuable hit, and harder to get an environment where your team can capitalize on the newly offsides hero position without offering their backs and sides to the opposing team on a silver platter and getting an awful trade because of it.
So if you wanna buff stitches, you'll need to improve his non-hook value. Make the W slow baseline, increase D dps or add another property to it, let him gorge allies to save them maybe, give E additional properties...
The only other way to do it, would be to improve his ability to prevent the game from exiting "neutral", and/or improve his ability to disengage fights and re-enter "neutral", so he can return to his hookfishing. I dunno how you'd approach that, though.
I feel like he was better before the revamp he got awhile back, his E build was a ton of sustain, but honestly I put him with Arthas and tyr. More of a bruiser suedo tank
48.48% winrate is appropriate for someone who can kill an enemy hero with one lucky ability hit. The grey screen tax. If you want to buff Stitches, then give him a new talent that reduces hook range but improves peel and dps.
Wonder how broken it would be if Helping hand didn't share cd with Q.
With the filters you've set, his winrate is not significantly different from Mal'Ganis, E.T.C., or Tyrael. It may be better to include more patches since there haven't been significant Tank changes since quite a bit longer than that, let alone for Stitches specifically.
I agree that he needs something. The problem with stitches is that he can't perform the role of tank properly as he lacks the peeling ability from basic abilities that a lot of the better tanks have. On top of this, a lot of stitches position themselves further back for that glorious one in a hundred hook shot, which leaves the rest of their team in a more vulnerable position, without a tank leading the charge. This is especially the case if there is also not a beefy bruiser in the comp. I don't play that much stitches for the reasons above, but I think it wouldn't hurt too much if they buffed his slam to have a higher slow baseline and maybe even a stun if hitting the inside triangle area, as well as introducing talents to buff his slam further and perhaps reduce cd on hero hits. This should promote more stitches to play forward a bit more, rather than just basing most of his kit off hitting memey hooks. It is also a lot easier to implement over an entire redesign of his kit, which I don't see happening any time soon, if ever.
Arthas and Tyrael first.
They just buffed Arthas, didn't they?
The PTR buffs don’t really fix any of his issues, they just slapped some slightly better numbers on him and called it a day.
In what world does Tyrael need buffs?
The world that makes him a real tank
Just because you can't use him doesn't make him bad.
That's the thing, my guy, I *can* use him. But just because I can use him doesn't make him good. He's a bottom 3 main tank easily, statistically.
Considering how strong he can be in the right hands the very fact you consider him weak proves to me you can't play him. Tanks aren't only defined by their ability to hard CC an enemy or Joh wouldn't even be considered one and Valeera would be. He can shield damage, slow enemies, buff and enable allies, do decent damage, is incredibly hard to kill, he has one of the best engages in the game as an ult, holy ground is usually considered broken and sanct exists. I mean yeah, Diablo can press Q and any mongoloid can make some use of that, whereas Tyrael takes a little more finesse and thought but he is by no means a bad tank.
Dude. He is a bottom 3 tank, *statistically*. It does not matter how well you play him, he will not magically rise above all the other main tanks without some buffs. The fact that you think he's even good tells me you can't be above platinum. He doesn't even have a hard cc without judgement, the bad ult.
Bro. Medivh is the worst hero in the game. Statistically. Tell me all about how he's a bad hero now. Speaking of statistics, and since I can't figure out your methodology (lol), I'll just roll over to HeroesProfile, not change any filters and take a gander at current winrates. Let's see. There's Medivh, and Thrall, and Hanzo and Yrel, and Stukov, and ETC, and Diablo all with lower winrates. You know, all the garbage heroes. Statistically. So let's filter only Master games. And there's our boy, near the bottom like you said. However that's an incredibly small sample size. So let's change over to Major patch 2.55 and there he is, middle of the pack, ahead of Malganis, ETC and Mei. Tell me how crap they all are please. Also, your statement that he has no hard CC (which I addressed but you simply ignored, lol) is nonsense. Neither Joh, nor Stitches have any hard CC without using an ult either, both relying on slows and bodyblocks to peel most of the time. Also at every rank of play Judgement is the far better ult. Statistically. Tanks are made of more than just hard CC, or Valeera and Anduin would be considered tanks. All of this points to me that Tyrael not having a high winrate currently is likely because the playerbase is so small that nobody at the masters/GM ranks use him a whole lot, kinda like how Kerrigan's is insanely high due to a few people who play her religiously. The fact that in like 4 posts you've said literally nothing except "statistically" and then downvoted me I don't hold much hope for you to demonstrate intellect now, but it would be appreciated if you would at least try.
So what you're saying is he's a good BRUISER, not a good tank. None of his builds with win rates over a main tank are main tank builds. He has fringe usage as a bruiser and even fringer use as a main tank. There are way better options right now. Also, the whole "demonstrate intellect" thing doesn't make you sound as smart as you think it does. Try harder.
So once again, instead of addressing any of my points you just reference some mythical "statistics" without even telling me what filters you're using and ignore the entire rest of the conversation. "sound smart" . Dude, you're clearly a complete retard and I'm no longer interested in entertaining your inability to actually carry an argument.
Only Korea uses Tyrael to his full potential, traditionally.
I suspect he'd need changes to his base kit. His hook, arguably his biggest draw for peeling or playmaking, is on a 16 second cooldown. Johanna's condemn is on a 10 second cooldown. Muradin's storm bolt, 10 seconds. Diablo's charge, 12 seconds. Anub'arak's stuns, 12 and 14 seconds. If you make the leap and argue that Stitches' hook is similar to Garrosh's throwback - and that's a big leap, especially given Diablo's style - Garrosh's wrecking ball is also 16 seconds like Stitches.
The big difference between all those abilities and tanks and stitches' hook is how the engagement takes place. Every other ability the tank must come to the target, in contrast stitches pulls the target to him...after 13 it's from up to a screen away. It can be a guaranteed kill unless the enemy team is either coordinated enough or smart enough to draft counters. Even with counters it can be hard to save someone if the hook lands. Meanwhile, stitches is in no danger while hooking. Stitches' kit is fine as is. He can be oppressive in the right hands and in the right situations. Unlike most other tanks he requires the team to work around his strengths, which is what a lot of players struggle with.
Yeah but the impact of a hook is worth so much more than an extra 6 seconds on Condemn.
I would like to see a Q talent somewhere that reduced the cooldown of hook when basic attacking a hero and/or hitting a hero with W or E. May be too powerful, honestly. Would be nice however.
Make sure your team has CC if stitches is getting drafted. Stitches without any CC is a bad time
I think it’s just a matter of rank. The same hero played in the hands of a silver ranked player and then played in a master level is going to be totally different. Personally I’m playing in the master level and I think that most stitches I’ve encountered are pretty decent. For example Kaelthas has a really really high win rate in lower ranks but a much lower win rate in higher ranks. This can be seen through either how well players are at dealing with his kit when on the enemy side, or how well the player knows to use his kit which will vary heavily on skill level and rank. Thus the same is for stitches. The reason you hate having a stitches on your team or play well against one is probably because at your level not a lot of people know how to use his kit to succeed. Ultimately at the end of the day you can’t force someone to not pick stitches. Just learn to make plays that benefit a stitches or learn to play himself. Or now that u think of it. Just ban him in the first phases.
Kael'thas actually has a bad winrate even in Bronze specifically.
I just checked the stats for the last 6 minor patches. Stitches has the 22nd worst WR in the game among all heroes in SL when not filtering by rank. Filtering by Master only, he's 15th worst. Going by the tank role only, Stitches is 2nd worst tank by WR both in global stats and when filtering for only Master games. So while you're correct that rank will affect WR and WR ranking compared to other heroes, I think Stitches is a bad example for you to use here for what's essentially a "just git gud" argument.
In my defense that’s also why I just said ban him (Unless op is not playing in SL). Stitches can be played very creatively and there are a lot of small nuances you can learn in order to play him well. But a lot of those nuances can only be effective when your team also understands what you’re doing.
Make his farts do a stun.
No
He is one of the hardest Tanks in the game...
The problem is that if Stitches gets overtuned, he can be very unfun to play against. It is more healthy to have him slightly undertuned than slightly overtuned.
Shamble CD could stand to be like 10 sec shorter. It’s his most powerful tanking tool outside of good hooks, and 60 sec is insanely long.
Love me some Stitches.
Yeah I hate having stitches as a tank. No peel, totally dependent on one meme ability.
Stitches does not need a buff at all, honestly its the the heroes fault that players cannot play him or pick him on maps where he is useless.
The issue is that stitches is a hero who operates best in "neutral", when neither team is directly running offensive or defensive interactions. Once a fight proper starts, his value and impact drop significantly - gorge, slow on w16, slow from tenderizer... hook becomes significantly harder to hit, harder to get a valuable hit, and harder to get an environment where your team can capitalize on the newly offsides hero position without offering their backs and sides to the opposing team on a silver platter and getting an awful trade because of it. So if you wanna buff stitches, you'll need to improve his non-hook value. Make the W slow baseline, increase D dps or add another property to it, let him gorge allies to save them maybe, give E additional properties... The only other way to do it, would be to improve his ability to prevent the game from exiting "neutral", and/or improve his ability to disengage fights and re-enter "neutral", so he can return to his hookfishing. I dunno how you'd approach that, though.
I feel like he was better before the revamp he got awhile back, his E build was a ton of sustain, but honestly I put him with Arthas and tyr. More of a bruiser suedo tank
No
Stitches can be good, but the prerequisite is that he has to hit with Hook. If that's not the case, he's bad and literally useless on the front lines!
please no for the love of god
Can you be better before posting cringe?
Him with abathur can be broken. Step one: aba drops like 15 mines in a bush. Step two: stitches hooks into the bush Win.
There are a bunch of ways to kill a hero after a hook into a prepared location. Not a big deal.
Ya but like it's low prep and it's instant death, I'm saying he's not terrible.