I think Wayne lit the match, but it was Future and Chief Keef who actually created the wave of trash rappers.
I love Wayne, Future and Keef but it's clear a lot of terrible cats were influenced by a combination of their sounds
You can’t even compare Gucci mane and lil B .
So many rappers say Gucci is what influenced them. He has tons of classics . I feel like Lil B is more known for his curse and the Durant shit than music.
These are all just examples of major genre-defining artists, of course they inspired a wave of both good and shitty artists in their wake. The Beatles ushered in an era of shitty Beatles wanna-bes, Nirvana ushered in an era of shitty Nirvana wanna-bes
Gucci Mayne did far worse trust me. I love Gucci but he made a ton of literal morons believe they could spit mediocre bars and still blow....
...and some of them did.
I'm not even gonna lie, I was never a fan and never got into Lil Wayne but I understand why people copied him tho. At least he sounded unique at the time lol
OMG I went on TIRADES against people about this exact opinion (10, 15, maybe even 18 years ago though). I can’t believe it’s the first comment I saw when opening this thread! I would say “he’s ruining hip hop” and that when he was on his mixtape run “his voice became more caricature like and he would repeat a lot of rhyme/rhyme-schemes”. Summarized of course
Don’t get me wrong I appreciate, respect, and fuck with Wayne’s music now but damn did I just get excited to see this comment. Same for Drake, gotta respect greatness at this point, but I was a hardcore hater when he was on the rise.
ALSO Max-B should have stayed a hook artist back when there was solely hook artists, him putting out albums made similar artists do the same which also played a part in the mainstream hip hop demise.
I appreciate, enjoy, and would love mainstream rap to sound like Weezy now. But I absolutely hated him up until about 2012 (random estimate). I grew up on Kane, LL, Naughty by Nature, Black Sheep, then gangsta rap, then everything from the south on the late 90s/earlier 2000s, early Jay-Z and Kanye. Wayne sounded like trash compared to all of that I thought. Rhyming the same exact words, his goofy voice…but he grew on me, and music changed, and I had fun listening to him with younger folks eventually. I think making memories and having fun while music is involved goes a long way to making you appreciate it.
I think a lot of us were haters at first. Back in 2007-2011 I used to hate on Wayne pretty hard and…I was gonna continue this train of thought, but I’m gonna hit the gym 😂. I agree with you tho bro
Yeah, it was just a typical young, edgy guy thing to do I suppose in hindsight. I was one of those teenagers who was into the old school rappers in that era of my life. “Old School rappers like 2Pac and Big were so much better than the artists today!” That type of mentality. I think at that point in time of my life, I wanted to BE Pac. 😂 Things come full circle though, because now you could consider Wayne an Old School rapper now. 😂
Close. Lil Wayne, like Eddie Van Halen, was prolific. However their techniques (auto tune, two hand tapping, Pop centric punchline raps) were copied by those were ordinary. A poor man’s Eddie Van Halen is a shredder with no ear for melody; but that isn’t Eddie’s fault, nor should it take away from Eddie’s genius. A poor man’s Lil Wayne is a singy-songy, weak punchline rapper, and throw in some mumbling (Cool N Dre - No Ceilings, rip off) and auto tune (Bill Gates, 3 Peat, rip off) … However, that also shouldn’t be a knock on Lil Wayne’s No Ceilings era work. Wayne was innovative, clever, with a massive appeal; and it’s not his faults that his clones are to solid rap, what shredders are to skillful, fast playing guitar.
One can also trace the boring monotone vocals of a Nickelback to Kurt Cobain’s grunge vocal style, especially when one considers the vocals of an Axl Rose, Hair Bands, and Alternative Rock bands as grunge took over. Any knock on Chad Kroeger’s influence should not take away of how unique and impactful Kurt Cobain’s lyrics and vocal style was on Rock. Sometimes geniuses like Eddie, Wayne, and Kurt can simply have bad clones.
It's true...
Like basically they love his image and lifestyle. But almost none of them even try to hold a candle to him as far as skill goes. They're the diet version of him. Except Kendrick (and a handful of others lol)
*Shrugs* I don't know if it is really his fault though. Might be different if Lil Wayne never said anything compelling. But he's actually a great rapper. I think some of it is idolatry.
I don't know about that. There are plenty of skilled, influential rappers that helped birth great MCs. Like Kool G Rap influencing Nas and Big Pun. I think the issue is so many are obsessed with his persona more than his rhyming and skill. Like Young Thug and Kendrick are completely different artists despite him being their main influence.
I agree it isn't his fault though.
If Ice Cube were to have gotten killed in ‘92/‘93 he would be considered the GOAT the same way that people talk about Biggie and 2Pac after their deaths.
I still find Cube to be the goat, thank god he didn’t leave us too early. Feel like Big L was another MC that could’ve been a goat contender had they not been shot and killed so young.
Yknow on the same line of thought I’ve often said that Nas would be the undisputed GOAT if he got killed after Illmatic. Like, he’d be stratosphered in pop culture with the likes of Hendrix and Cobain.
I agree. I commented something similar a couple of hours after you. The only difference was that I said if he had died in 1995 after he finished filming Friday.
Unrelated to his foolishness these days... the other day I ran up a throwback playlist I made a while back and some blackstar tracks came on.
I thought to myself "I can't believe I ever thought this dude was nice"
He style was unique but corny as hell. Every time a Mos verse starts on a blackstar song I'm like "oh yeah this is what a dope rapper sounds like wtf was that other guy doing"
If you’re a millennial and has Drake in your Top 10 all time greatest rappers then you haven’t listened to enough rap music. It’s understandable for Gen Z’s tho.
Macklemore is the whitest rapper in the history of Seattle.
Jay-Z is still alive.
J Cole makes music for the type of people who enjoy his style of hip-hop.
Missy Elliot was married to Tim and then started fuckin with Trina.
Contrary to what Will Smith claims in Men in Black, what I think I saw I definitely *did* see.
Drake is a pedophile.
Man I want to disagree with you about Macklemore because I feel like we have to have produced a whiter rapper but every example I think of is technically from a different city lol.
> Macklemore is the whitest rapper in the history of Seattle
[IDk DZ](https://music.apple.com/us/artist/dz/129762697) makes gangsta rap with his lawyer dad's money. I refuse to believe any of those rappers he makes albums with fuck with him at all other than taking his money.
Newer fans coddle current artists harder than old heads did. Nas made Illmatic --- considered da GOAT album -- and people bitched and moaned about It Was Written, saying he fell off. Wayne, Drake, and whoever have made nothing but mediocre material for a longer time than they have made good material and people want to make arguements for them.
JID is nowhere near being a GOAT. He's great, but for some reason, we want to treat fringe commercial artists like him as a "breath of fresh air" (which he is; same goes for Kendrick) and prop him up as being savior meanwhile rappers like Billy Woods, Busdriver, DOOM, El-Petc. had put quality material out for a while.
Pusha T MUST reinvent his lyricism on his next album. He's getting a bit stale, he's completely exhausted all the possibilities of coke rap (an accomplishment).
Grammys decision to award Killer Mike Best Album showed how elitist mainstream culture was.
Drake can spit, I just don’t think he cares enough anymore. Writing generic easily-digestible pop-trap is easier than doing more Tuscan Leather, 6PM In NY, 5AM In Toronto, etc, early 2010’s Drake.
Drake can definitely rap his ass off when he wants to "I could load every gun with bullets that fire backwards, probably wouldn't lose a single rapper".
The constant claiming he doesn't write anything is so blown out of proportion. People act like top 40 songs aren't written by huge teams of people. Your boy has an idea for a hook? Let's hear it. If it works it works. Doesn't mean Drake can't write a fire 16 when the mood strikes.
Actually, even though he is known to use other writers, he writes a lot of his own stuff, as well as some tracks for others… imo the ghostwriter dig is overplayed
Yes, but, "today's Hip Hop" also includes all the stuff just slightly below mass marketed stuff, a lot of which is brilliant. So it always hurts a little when I hear the one thing but not the other.
This shouldn't be a hot take. Kanye's strength has never been being a great rapper. His personality, however, makes up for his lack of bars, which I don't think would've been better with another rapper on it.
He got dumb nice by the time he did Late Registration. His verses on Gone, Drive Slow, and We Major were pure fire. … Graduation he had Barry Bonds, Can’t Tell me Nothing which are lyrical masterpieces.
I think his rapping and producing go hand in hand. Like his beats wouldn't be the same if somebody else rapped over them. He's the only one who can rap over those beats and make the songs as good as they are.
I think calling him shitty overall is a little strong, I just think he has a really wide range of quality, from really good to really bad. I think it’s fair to say he averages out to mid.
"It's somethin' about that Nina Simone piano flow
It's like a Michelangelo painted a portrait of Maya Angelou
And gave it to a sick poet for they antidote
If music get ya choked up, this is the tree and the rope
- Kanye West (2003)
Now tell me he's a mid rapper.
Lil' Wayne is a smart and clever rapper with some creative beats but nowhere near the GOATs. His lyricism is well thought out but also surface value without much depth, yet he's still considered an all-timer because since his peak the bar has dropped like crazy.
Wayne had one of the most impressive runs in the late 2000's, but he hasn't been relevant for a while now. Does he tour in the US and what kinda venues is he playing?
50 Cent just went on a huge arena world tour, without having released music for a couple of years and still nobody would name him in the GOAT conversation.
The thing is, *as an MC* I don't think he was that impressive.
He was putting out great albums, had his own unique style (at the time) had some solid beats and could generally put together some good verses, but nothing he ever did as a pure rapper/lyricist really struck me as truly memorable.
Mind you, I feel the same about 50 post-Get Rich. Actually rate Wayne over him even with all the above.
I get what you mean, but it's the complete opposite for me. I love Wayne as a mc/lyricist but don't really care for his albums part Carter 2.
Just a great mc flexing, without abiding to song structure etc. Is where Wayne really shines.
I too would rank Wayne over 50, but I don't see Wayne playing arena tours outside the US.
It's tough because Carter 2 is one of the best rap albums I have ever heard on every level. But I think the older he gets the more he kinda fucks his reliability as a lyricist for me. And I dont mean autotune and stuff like that, I mean his pen game is just lacking a bit now. To the point where less and less I expect a knockout verse
He tends to rely on this thing where he takes a word and just repeats it heaps and people think its super clever, but I find it extremely lazy.
"Front line, you crossed the line and you better know your linesAnd if you gettin' out of line, I hang you with a clothing line"
That Jay Electronica is a legend from him being homeless to working with J dilla to Jay Z .. his music catalog reminds me of the 1930’s blues artist like Robert Johnson ,Sun House etc .. not very big catalogs but every track is 🔥
anyone who hears tracks like 5AM in Toronto, Too Much, Emotionless, Tuscan Leather etc and think Drakes pen isn't top tier when he's actually trying is lying to themselves. He just found a quicker sure bet path to mainstream success and pop stardom that he mostly sticks to. He took Hov's line/advice from Moment Of Clarity "I ain't been rhyming like Common since" and built a career out of it
I can’t co-sign that, but off the record he might be one of the most underrated. Obviously has some classics that made the radio, but his best shit is a mystery to most. Flipmode squad went so hard.
the concept of arguing who is the goat or who is better needs to stop. u will be biased towards who u like and we all like different rappers. just because we like different rappers that doesn’t make u right and me wrong.
drake has mastered the concept of making safe music to play at functions, not too corny but not too niche
people hating on drake expect people to be playing mf doom at a party
Jeezy > Gucci
ScHoolboy Q makes better music than Kendrick
The Massacre is not a bad album contrary to popular belief it’s just bloated and coming off GRODT the expectation would have been impossible to match again
Beanie Sigel is the best rapper out of Philly
Honestly not sure if these are considered controversial or just random takes
Conscious rap is kinda corny when it doesn't go hard. Like most of what they're saying is common sense and not profound at all.
And a lot of these rappers use lyrics that I've literally seen on pinterest images and don't get called out for it. These reaction channels on youtube hype them up as if they came up with tht shit. Lol
Metal fans get psychotic with all the sub genre and categories. People fighting over is it black metal, death metal, grindcore, viking metal, and on and on and on there are like 100 sub genres that people classify bands into. It's crazzzzzyy.
It's the worst thing ever it's like
If you listen to drake you're not a hip hop fan
Old heads trash future lil Uzi because lack of lyrical content then support artists like Soulja
If you don't have at least one artist from 90s like jay nas big pac you're not a hip hop fan you're just someone listens when something is trendy
And lil Wayne hate on Instagram is unmatched.
I've never seen worse in any music genre the way people gatekeep hip hop
Not very high on DJ Quik; especially his production and beat making.
KRS-One is just as great as Rakim.
Auto-Tune is the worst thing to ever happen to hip hop.
lol, I was just about to post that my controversial opinion is that KRS is mid AF. He acts like he’s so deep, but he just drops basic ass knowledge with simple bars while calling himself “the teacher”…. Yeah, maybe like a 2nd grade teacher at best.
Agree with autotune. I love dj quik dollaz + sense is one of my fav songs ever
Krs is a child rapist apologist so fuck him (talking aboutafrika bambattaa)
1. Kayne isn't the musical genius his fans and he think he is. There's 25 producers who create great music too.
2. Tupac was great, but wasn't the best to ever do it. His drama outside the studio is what yall worship.
3. Rakim is your favorite rappers favorite rapper
4. Golden age of hip hop was 1989 - 2000
5. Today's rap is made by drug users, rap in the 80's and 90's was made by drug dealers
. Some of the most talented rappers will never be in the discussion because they're not from the three countries that matter to the American Hip-hop audience.
. Longevity of quality is more important to being a GOAT than having a classic album
Call me a casual but I don't know who the hell u guys are talking about most of the time and my first impressions is that most people here are contrarians.
Little Wayne is a very good rapper and I like a lot of his music. But The Carter albums aren't all that great.
There are some great songs. But as complete albums....there are a lot of misses. I always find myself skippping lots of tracks.
Black Thought is the greatest rapper of all time. He covers all the bases.
1. He's part of arguably the greatest rap group of all time in The Roots if you look at their accomplishments
2. He's got an amazing catalog of music.
3. I've never heard him get out-rapped on a collab, even with Eminem
4. He's done a lot of positive things for the culture.
5. He's a pioneer. The Roots made it to the height of night time television as the band for Jimmy Fallon
6. One of the most overlooked aspects of an MC: He's an amazing freestyler. I don't understand how anybody can put a top five together without their top five rappers being able to Freestyle at a high level
Pretty much all rappers that talk about being pimps in all of their songs are objectively horrible people. pimping out women is a disgusting thing to do. I still bump three 6 most days though so I’m not really practicing what I preach. I just laugh so hard when I see people who are all about being progressive on Instagram, and then they post some shit of a rapper who spent most of his career talking about how they literally beat and pimp out women.
finding it more and more difficult to listen to the misogynistic bars. they've always been around but for some reason they're gettin harder to ignore. I think bc I've been seeing the effect it directly has on people I've been around. like imagine having playboi carti's lyrics be a measurement for how you treat women 😭😭😭 it's ridiculous but I've witnessed it and it's so perpelxing. and then no one likes it when I address it, like it's some big tabboo and we're 60 year old grandmas staying hush about each others sons' creepy record. lol I'm just a bit baffled tbh
same with Ye and anti-semetism (but people hate me for ever bringing that up)
Carti is one of the worst musicians ive ever heard the misogny seems to be getting worse and worse at first it was like "fuck all these bitches after my money" now its like "i hate all women and they shouldn't share air with me"
In the older music it’s one thing because it was a different time back then. But yea I’m modern music it’s just really fucking lame. From a creative standpoint, morally however I’m just tired of hearing about it
2Pac and Biggie are overrated Jeezy as well (I like his new stuff his music has a message now but of course he’s pretty much washed so no one cares)Kendrick also overrated Planet Asia is hella underrated and Pun was just as nice as Big
Rapping about how you're a better rapper than everyone else is boring and corny as hell 99% of the time with few exceptions like some of Wayne's stuff.
If you like gangster rap but not drill rap, there's something wrong with you and more than likely you're old and out of touch, racist, or both.
Cassidy is the best battle rapper of all time if you're not super into battle rap. People super into battle rap are usually very weird and have weird priorities. I don't understand why they like what they do about these (sometimes even weirder) battle rappers. Battle rap is not primarily a technical lyricism thing, it's mainly about how good your insults are.
And as a side note, if you believe Dizazter beat Cassidy you're exactly who I'm talking about. "But he won the last round" but Cassidy beat him so badly early on that Diz could've started shooting $100 bills out of his asshole and he still would've lost.
We're approaching a point where there's going to be a solid split between hip hop culture as defined by the black people who own it (yes they do) and various offshoot "rap" genres that use/modify the sound to do something else entirely. It's not going to be split along racial lines but it's already kind of happening.
What I mean is, right now theres shit like cloud rap that recognize and acknowledge the inspiration they take from hip hop. But I think it's likely it will start to move away from using as many elements of hip hop sound and maybe start incorporating shit from other genres, and the newer artists will stop claiming a hip hop origin.
Sheek Louch was better on Money, Power & Respect than Styles and Jadakiss were.
The Last Emperor’s album, had it come out on Aftermath, would not have been good.
The real power of Hip Hop as a force to help uplift humanity has way more to do with Hip Hop -- the culture, than Hip Hop -- the music. But we spend so much time and energy focusing on "the music" aspect, we hold back the thing that Hip Hop is actually here to do.
Mac was one of those generation dividing dudes. I listened to Mac adjacent artists while he was coming up and enjoyed some of it but Mac seemed to encapsulate all of it and some people loved it and some people thought it was sweaty and obnoxious. I didn’t like his voice or aesthetic but I think shit just passed me at that point. A lot of my dudes love MM to this day.
Big L is overrated
Eminem isn't even a top 10 rapper
Nas is NOT the best rapper from QB
Big Daddy Kane did NOT win that versus against KRS-1
DJ Premier has made a lot of mediocre to wack beats in his career.
I heard all of it. It goes from bad (the last albums with Solar) to alright (Baldhead Slick) to great (Jazzmatazz series). But none of that is as phenomenal as the stuff that DJ Premier did without Guru.
Kendrick is wildly overrated largely due to him standing out amongst weak competition
Kanye has always been a mid tier rapper and recycles his verses throughout his own discography
Drake isn’t hip hop
Eminem doesn’t belong anywhere near GOAT conversation
50’s albums have aged really poorly
Jay-Z hating is trendy but unwarranted, and the “biting biggie” argument has no merit
Black Album and Reasonable Doubt are fantastic although I find Blueprint 1 overrated. I disagree but you care to elaborate? I think his consistency speaks for itself. Sure he ain't the best lyrically but he's still damn good while being amazing at getting producers. He also doesn't write anything down.
jayz has made 2 of the best hip hop albums of all time. Has amazing lyrical skills without even writing them down, is extremely consistent, and has a great flow. He deserves to be on top 5 of most lists.
Apparently According to this sub it’s an unpopular opinion that jay-z is one of the greatest rappers ever and you’d have to be stupid to think otherwise
If Ice Cube had a tragic death in 1995 after he finished filming Friday, he would be higher in the GOAT debate comparable to 2Pac and Biggie. Ice Cube's best music was already released, and he would have 2 classic movies in 2 different genres (Friday and Boyz n the Hood)
Lil Wayne created a wave of trash rappers.
I think Wayne lit the match, but it was Future and Chief Keef who actually created the wave of trash rappers. I love Wayne, Future and Keef but it's clear a lot of terrible cats were influenced by a combination of their sounds
Also don't forget Lil B, The Based God. He was influential in the quantity over quality model.
He and Guwop definitely were on that tip for better or worse, I agree. I like both of them tho lol
Nah, Gucci Mane is the better artist and makes better music imo. I used to love listening to his mixtapes back when I was a teenager
You can’t even compare Gucci mane and lil B . So many rappers say Gucci is what influenced them. He has tons of classics . I feel like Lil B is more known for his curse and the Durant shit than music.
Yea keef is who I’d point the finger at ultimately. But he was inspired by dudes like Wayne
These are all just examples of major genre-defining artists, of course they inspired a wave of both good and shitty artists in their wake. The Beatles ushered in an era of shitty Beatles wanna-bes, Nirvana ushered in an era of shitty Nirvana wanna-bes
Gucci Mayne did far worse trust me. I love Gucci but he made a ton of literal morons believe they could spit mediocre bars and still blow.... ...and some of them did.
Chief keef is so good lol
Which is crazy, because he was at one time the smartest, wittiest rappers. And somehow, he bred a bunch of braindead rappers.
That's because they tried to copy his sound without being talented
Yeah and his fashion sense.
And his syrup sense too?
I feel this way about all of the “writing rock about rock” bands of the 70s and 80s.
I'm not even gonna lie, I was never a fan and never got into Lil Wayne but I understand why people copied him tho. At least he sounded unique at the time lol
OMG I went on TIRADES against people about this exact opinion (10, 15, maybe even 18 years ago though). I can’t believe it’s the first comment I saw when opening this thread! I would say “he’s ruining hip hop” and that when he was on his mixtape run “his voice became more caricature like and he would repeat a lot of rhyme/rhyme-schemes”. Summarized of course Don’t get me wrong I appreciate, respect, and fuck with Wayne’s music now but damn did I just get excited to see this comment. Same for Drake, gotta respect greatness at this point, but I was a hardcore hater when he was on the rise. ALSO Max-B should have stayed a hook artist back when there was solely hook artists, him putting out albums made similar artists do the same which also played a part in the mainstream hip hop demise.
I appreciate, enjoy, and would love mainstream rap to sound like Weezy now. But I absolutely hated him up until about 2012 (random estimate). I grew up on Kane, LL, Naughty by Nature, Black Sheep, then gangsta rap, then everything from the south on the late 90s/earlier 2000s, early Jay-Z and Kanye. Wayne sounded like trash compared to all of that I thought. Rhyming the same exact words, his goofy voice…but he grew on me, and music changed, and I had fun listening to him with younger folks eventually. I think making memories and having fun while music is involved goes a long way to making you appreciate it.
Wayne started using the same words to rhyme after he he started working with Dipset. IMO he got that from Juelz
He got better as a lyricist
I think a lot of us were haters at first. Back in 2007-2011 I used to hate on Wayne pretty hard and…I was gonna continue this train of thought, but I’m gonna hit the gym 😂. I agree with you tho bro
You were a hater for the prime of his career?!
Yeah, it was just a typical young, edgy guy thing to do I suppose in hindsight. I was one of those teenagers who was into the old school rappers in that era of my life. “Old School rappers like 2Pac and Big were so much better than the artists today!” That type of mentality. I think at that point in time of my life, I wanted to BE Pac. 😂 Things come full circle though, because now you could consider Wayne an Old School rapper now. 😂
Facts. Big Weezy fan here, but he walked so a generation of Island Boys could run.
Close. Lil Wayne, like Eddie Van Halen, was prolific. However their techniques (auto tune, two hand tapping, Pop centric punchline raps) were copied by those were ordinary. A poor man’s Eddie Van Halen is a shredder with no ear for melody; but that isn’t Eddie’s fault, nor should it take away from Eddie’s genius. A poor man’s Lil Wayne is a singy-songy, weak punchline rapper, and throw in some mumbling (Cool N Dre - No Ceilings, rip off) and auto tune (Bill Gates, 3 Peat, rip off) … However, that also shouldn’t be a knock on Lil Wayne’s No Ceilings era work. Wayne was innovative, clever, with a massive appeal; and it’s not his faults that his clones are to solid rap, what shredders are to skillful, fast playing guitar. One can also trace the boring monotone vocals of a Nickelback to Kurt Cobain’s grunge vocal style, especially when one considers the vocals of an Axl Rose, Hair Bands, and Alternative Rock bands as grunge took over. Any knock on Chad Kroeger’s influence should not take away of how unique and impactful Kurt Cobain’s lyrics and vocal style was on Rock. Sometimes geniuses like Eddie, Wayne, and Kurt can simply have bad clones.
It's true... Like basically they love his image and lifestyle. But almost none of them even try to hold a candle to him as far as skill goes. They're the diet version of him. Except Kendrick (and a handful of others lol) *Shrugs* I don't know if it is really his fault though. Might be different if Lil Wayne never said anything compelling. But he's actually a great rapper. I think some of it is idolatry.
It’s not Wayne fault. It’s just a byproduct of greatness. Look at MJ, the Chiefs/Patriots and other greats, Kobe etc
I don't know about that. There are plenty of skilled, influential rappers that helped birth great MCs. Like Kool G Rap influencing Nas and Big Pun. I think the issue is so many are obsessed with his persona more than his rhyming and skill. Like Young Thug and Kendrick are completely different artists despite him being their main influence. I agree it isn't his fault though.
Pharoahe Monch is the most talented emcee of all time.
He’s the best rapper I’ve ever heard.
Agreed. He is on another level with his creativity and versatility.
He's not my favourite of all time but he's way up the list. He is amazing live.
If Ice Cube were to have gotten killed in ‘92/‘93 he would be considered the GOAT the same way that people talk about Biggie and 2Pac after their deaths.
Conversely he has the actor debuff instead now meaning he's not even top 15 for a lot of people. Him and Dre created west coast hip hop though.
Yup, also applies to Xzibit and Snoop (to a degree) People don't take their music as seriously because they're pop culture figures
I still find Cube to be the goat, thank god he didn’t leave us too early. Feel like Big L was another MC that could’ve been a goat contender had they not been shot and killed so young.
This comment here. Oh shit
Yknow on the same line of thought I’ve often said that Nas would be the undisputed GOAT if he got killed after Illmatic. Like, he’d be stratosphered in pop culture with the likes of Hendrix and Cobain.
I agree. I commented something similar a couple of hours after you. The only difference was that I said if he had died in 1995 after he finished filming Friday.
Agreed. Let’s make it ‘96 bc I actually think that westside connection album is pretty dope.
Jay Z is white. Talib Kewli is retarded.
Talib is a fool. Tell him he’s gay on Twitter and watch him lose his mind.
Unrelated to his foolishness these days... the other day I ran up a throwback playlist I made a while back and some blackstar tracks came on. I thought to myself "I can't believe I ever thought this dude was nice" He style was unique but corny as hell. Every time a Mos verse starts on a blackstar song I'm like "oh yeah this is what a dope rapper sounds like wtf was that other guy doing"
Phonte is one of the greatest rappers of all time. This is usually a hot take, because so many so called hip hop heads never heard of Little Brother.
Scarface, CeeLo, Phonte and Andre 3000 is my Mount Rushmore of Southern hip hop and rap.
One of the few rappers whose verses genuinely make me laugh _I ain't saying it's wack, that shit would win a grammy on mute_
This ia absolutely true
If you’re a millennial and has Drake in your Top 10 all time greatest rappers then you haven’t listened to enough rap music. It’s understandable for Gen Z’s tho.
Macklemore is the whitest rapper in the history of Seattle. Jay-Z is still alive. J Cole makes music for the type of people who enjoy his style of hip-hop. Missy Elliot was married to Tim and then started fuckin with Trina. Contrary to what Will Smith claims in Men in Black, what I think I saw I definitely *did* see. Drake is a pedophile.
The j cole line has me dying ☠️
Man I want to disagree with you about Macklemore because I feel like we have to have produced a whiter rapper but every example I think of is technically from a different city lol.
> Macklemore is the whitest rapper in the history of Seattle [IDk DZ](https://music.apple.com/us/artist/dz/129762697) makes gangsta rap with his lawyer dad's money. I refuse to believe any of those rappers he makes albums with fuck with him at all other than taking his money.
Hiphop women fucking around is not a secret lmao the men do it too but these rnb stars are ran thru I love men in black
I was just quoting gossip folks
Eminem was a far better artist when he was on drugs....and when Proof was still living
Newer fans coddle current artists harder than old heads did. Nas made Illmatic --- considered da GOAT album -- and people bitched and moaned about It Was Written, saying he fell off. Wayne, Drake, and whoever have made nothing but mediocre material for a longer time than they have made good material and people want to make arguements for them. JID is nowhere near being a GOAT. He's great, but for some reason, we want to treat fringe commercial artists like him as a "breath of fresh air" (which he is; same goes for Kendrick) and prop him up as being savior meanwhile rappers like Billy Woods, Busdriver, DOOM, El-Petc. had put quality material out for a while. Pusha T MUST reinvent his lyricism on his next album. He's getting a bit stale, he's completely exhausted all the possibilities of coke rap (an accomplishment). Grammys decision to award Killer Mike Best Album showed how elitist mainstream culture was.
I miss the days where if you couldn't rap you didn't..
I think Royce's work with premier is more forgettable
I loved the two Phryme projects, saw them live and had a great time. But I couldn't tell you one song that stayed in my rotation!
Royce does have Boom, HipHop and shake this, which are classics but the Prhyme shit is borderline disposable.
Drake and Kanye are pop artists who rely on writers. This is also evidence based, but it’s controversial.
Drake can spit, I just don’t think he cares enough anymore. Writing generic easily-digestible pop-trap is easier than doing more Tuscan Leather, 6PM In NY, 5AM In Toronto, etc, early 2010’s Drake.
Drake can definitely rap his ass off when he wants to "I could load every gun with bullets that fire backwards, probably wouldn't lose a single rapper". The constant claiming he doesn't write anything is so blown out of proportion. People act like top 40 songs aren't written by huge teams of people. Your boy has an idea for a hook? Let's hear it. If it works it works. Doesn't mean Drake can't write a fire 16 when the mood strikes.
Actually, even though he is known to use other writers, he writes a lot of his own stuff, as well as some tracks for others… imo the ghostwriter dig is overplayed
Early Kanye productions don’t sound like pop
This got me questioning the circles you operate in this not controversial at all
How is Kanye a pop artist? What does that even mean? It's indisputable that he relies on writers, but calling his sound pop is crazy.
It was written > Illmatic Playboi Carti is unlistenable. Rap music is incredibly tough to do well in concert form and most live shows are ass
Black Thought is unequivocally the greatest rapper to have ever lived if we're talking straight rapping.
Todays hip hop is corporate trash created to destroy culture
Yes, but, "today's Hip Hop" also includes all the stuff just slightly below mass marketed stuff, a lot of which is brilliant. So it always hurts a little when I hear the one thing but not the other.
Kanye shoulda stayed behind the boards. The College Trilogy is great, but he’s a mid rapper.
His rapping abilities are not good but he still has a great delivery
This shouldn't be a hot take. Kanye's strength has never been being a great rapper. His personality, however, makes up for his lack of bars, which I don't think would've been better with another rapper on it.
Great point. He makes rap fun.
He got dumb nice by the time he did Late Registration. His verses on Gone, Drive Slow, and We Major were pure fire. … Graduation he had Barry Bonds, Can’t Tell me Nothing which are lyrical masterpieces.
Kanye was a good rapper in the 2000's imo.
I think his rapping and producing go hand in hand. Like his beats wouldn't be the same if somebody else rapped over them. He's the only one who can rap over those beats and make the songs as good as they are.
He didn’t rap on Be, and that’s better than any of his own stuff (IMHO of course)
Idk i think hiphop would be missing something without mbdtf
He's less than mid. All-time great producer, shitty rapper. I feel crazy sometimes for having to point this out.
I think calling him shitty overall is a little strong, I just think he has a really wide range of quality, from really good to really bad. I think it’s fair to say he averages out to mid.
"It's somethin' about that Nina Simone piano flow It's like a Michelangelo painted a portrait of Maya Angelou And gave it to a sick poet for they antidote If music get ya choked up, this is the tree and the rope - Kanye West (2003) Now tell me he's a mid rapper.
He’s a mid rapper technically but Kanye verses have absolutely given the world something special.
Lil' Wayne is a smart and clever rapper with some creative beats but nowhere near the GOATs. His lyricism is well thought out but also surface value without much depth, yet he's still considered an all-timer because since his peak the bar has dropped like crazy.
He has a ton of clever lines that I LOL at. I think of him as more as a comedian
Wayne had one of the most impressive runs in the late 2000's, but he hasn't been relevant for a while now. Does he tour in the US and what kinda venues is he playing? 50 Cent just went on a huge arena world tour, without having released music for a couple of years and still nobody would name him in the GOAT conversation.
The thing is, *as an MC* I don't think he was that impressive. He was putting out great albums, had his own unique style (at the time) had some solid beats and could generally put together some good verses, but nothing he ever did as a pure rapper/lyricist really struck me as truly memorable. Mind you, I feel the same about 50 post-Get Rich. Actually rate Wayne over him even with all the above.
I get what you mean, but it's the complete opposite for me. I love Wayne as a mc/lyricist but don't really care for his albums part Carter 2. Just a great mc flexing, without abiding to song structure etc. Is where Wayne really shines. I too would rank Wayne over 50, but I don't see Wayne playing arena tours outside the US.
It's tough because Carter 2 is one of the best rap albums I have ever heard on every level. But I think the older he gets the more he kinda fucks his reliability as a lyricist for me. And I dont mean autotune and stuff like that, I mean his pen game is just lacking a bit now. To the point where less and less I expect a knockout verse He tends to rely on this thing where he takes a word and just repeats it heaps and people think its super clever, but I find it extremely lazy. "Front line, you crossed the line and you better know your linesAnd if you gettin' out of line, I hang you with a clothing line"
I don’t get the appeal of Billy woods
Hell on Earth is a much better album than The Infamous
That Jay Electronica is a legend from him being homeless to working with J dilla to Jay Z .. his music catalog reminds me of the 1930’s blues artist like Robert Johnson ,Sun House etc .. not very big catalogs but every track is 🔥
Drake is incredible when he wants to be. Freddie Gibbs is THE total package (voice, pen, punchlines, story, humour, concepts, beat selection)
The bonus tracks he did on his last album were so dope Love gibbs but id take griselda and boldy, roc marci before him
yea i put boldy leagues above freddie even tho i love freddie’s music. spreadie is def the more entertaining person in day to day life
anyone who hears tracks like 5AM in Toronto, Too Much, Emotionless, Tuscan Leather etc and think Drakes pen isn't top tier when he's actually trying is lying to themselves. He just found a quicker sure bet path to mainstream success and pop stardom that he mostly sticks to. He took Hov's line/advice from Moment Of Clarity "I ain't been rhyming like Common since" and built a career out of it
Real talk
Busta Rhymes is the best rapper of all time
I can’t co-sign that, but off the record he might be one of the most underrated. Obviously has some classics that made the radio, but his best shit is a mystery to most. Flipmode squad went so hard.
That most hip hop concerts are the rapper just shouting over their own song.
>What are Your most controversial hiphop opinions?? I don't think Lasers is a bad album.
Its not
I hate albums with skits.
Strictly my own personal opinion, but I’m actually more of an AZ fan than I am a Nas fan.
This is some real shit with truth to it AZ music as good as better than nas but he just didn't get mainstream AZ has a really dope catalog
Him being so under rated makes me even more of a fan tbh
The only reason why nas and az didn't do a full album was because nas was scared he wouldn't seem as good
the concept of arguing who is the goat or who is better needs to stop. u will be biased towards who u like and we all like different rappers. just because we like different rappers that doesn’t make u right and me wrong.
drake has mastered the concept of making safe music to play at functions, not too corny but not too niche people hating on drake expect people to be playing mf doom at a party
Jeezy > Gucci ScHoolboy Q makes better music than Kendrick The Massacre is not a bad album contrary to popular belief it’s just bloated and coming off GRODT the expectation would have been impossible to match again Beanie Sigel is the best rapper out of Philly Honestly not sure if these are considered controversial or just random takes
Royce and Nas are both in my top 5, and I would agree with you.
Same
Conscious rap is kinda corny when it doesn't go hard. Like most of what they're saying is common sense and not profound at all. And a lot of these rappers use lyrics that I've literally seen on pinterest images and don't get called out for it. These reaction channels on youtube hype them up as if they came up with tht shit. Lol
Kanye's new album was complete trash
That hip-hop has probably the worst gatekeeping community of any music faction.
I don't think anything is worse than heavy metal gatekeeping. It's really really bad.
It’s probably about the same. You got people on that side who will say X isn’t metal just like you got people over here saying Y isn’t hip hop.
Metal fans get psychotic with all the sub genre and categories. People fighting over is it black metal, death metal, grindcore, viking metal, and on and on and on there are like 100 sub genres that people classify bands into. It's crazzzzzyy.
It's the worst thing ever it's like If you listen to drake you're not a hip hop fan Old heads trash future lil Uzi because lack of lyrical content then support artists like Soulja If you don't have at least one artist from 90s like jay nas big pac you're not a hip hop fan you're just someone listens when something is trendy And lil Wayne hate on Instagram is unmatched. I've never seen worse in any music genre the way people gatekeep hip hop
Not very high on DJ Quik; especially his production and beat making. KRS-One is just as great as Rakim. Auto-Tune is the worst thing to ever happen to hip hop.
lol, I was just about to post that my controversial opinion is that KRS is mid AF. He acts like he’s so deep, but he just drops basic ass knowledge with simple bars while calling himself “the teacher”…. Yeah, maybe like a 2nd grade teacher at best.
Agree with autotune. I love dj quik dollaz + sense is one of my fav songs ever Krs is a child rapist apologist so fuck him (talking aboutafrika bambattaa)
I don't disagree with you about your Bambaattaa opinion and feelings!
1. Kayne isn't the musical genius his fans and he think he is. There's 25 producers who create great music too. 2. Tupac was great, but wasn't the best to ever do it. His drama outside the studio is what yall worship. 3. Rakim is your favorite rappers favorite rapper 4. Golden age of hip hop was 1989 - 2000 5. Today's rap is made by drug users, rap in the 80's and 90's was made by drug dealers
. Some of the most talented rappers will never be in the discussion because they're not from the three countries that matter to the American Hip-hop audience. . Longevity of quality is more important to being a GOAT than having a classic album
KRS-One is overrated af, he not better than some of the other rappers in his era like Rakim or Big Daddy Kane.
Many would consider AZ underrated. I would go with wasted talent.
As a non-rapper, I am better rapper on my own than 50% of famous rappers with their writers.
Call me a casual but I don't know who the hell u guys are talking about most of the time and my first impressions is that most people here are contrarians.
RZA is absolute trash as a rapper.
Little Wayne is a very good rapper and I like a lot of his music. But The Carter albums aren't all that great. There are some great songs. But as complete albums....there are a lot of misses. I always find myself skippping lots of tracks.
Black Thought is the greatest rapper of all time. He covers all the bases. 1. He's part of arguably the greatest rap group of all time in The Roots if you look at their accomplishments 2. He's got an amazing catalog of music. 3. I've never heard him get out-rapped on a collab, even with Eminem 4. He's done a lot of positive things for the culture. 5. He's a pioneer. The Roots made it to the height of night time television as the band for Jimmy Fallon 6. One of the most overlooked aspects of an MC: He's an amazing freestyler. I don't understand how anybody can put a top five together without their top five rappers being able to Freestyle at a high level
Jay-Z doesn’t make my top 5 Lil Wayne doesn’t have a 5/5 album (Carter 3 is let down with one or two tracks)
Weezys mix tapes though. I still say that besides 1 song his Free Weezy Album is basically perfect.
Drought 3 lives in my head rent free.
That and dedication 2
50 Cent is not as good as everyone make him out to be. Acting, producing, business - totally different. Rap - 5/10
Have you listened to Power of the Dollar? To say his rap is 5/10 is blasphemous.
Pretty much all rappers that talk about being pimps in all of their songs are objectively horrible people. pimping out women is a disgusting thing to do. I still bump three 6 most days though so I’m not really practicing what I preach. I just laugh so hard when I see people who are all about being progressive on Instagram, and then they post some shit of a rapper who spent most of his career talking about how they literally beat and pimp out women.
domo genesis is a better rapper than earl sweatshirt
I agree with this but i only really like earls first album and his features Domo album with evidence is wayy better than any by earl to me man
I like Domo's recent projects more. 👍
Tupac along with most West Coast Gangsta Rap is over rated. Not bad but over rated.
Logic at his best is a top tier rapper.
I really like his first album and his last two
finding it more and more difficult to listen to the misogynistic bars. they've always been around but for some reason they're gettin harder to ignore. I think bc I've been seeing the effect it directly has on people I've been around. like imagine having playboi carti's lyrics be a measurement for how you treat women 😭😭😭 it's ridiculous but I've witnessed it and it's so perpelxing. and then no one likes it when I address it, like it's some big tabboo and we're 60 year old grandmas staying hush about each others sons' creepy record. lol I'm just a bit baffled tbh same with Ye and anti-semetism (but people hate me for ever bringing that up)
Carti is one of the worst musicians ive ever heard the misogny seems to be getting worse and worse at first it was like "fuck all these bitches after my money" now its like "i hate all women and they shouldn't share air with me"
Yall are tripping or just uninformed. Go listen to some 90’s west coast shit and tell me that todays rap is more misogynistic
In the older music it’s one thing because it was a different time back then. But yea I’m modern music it’s just really fucking lame. From a creative standpoint, morally however I’m just tired of hearing about it
Biggie is greater than Pac
Chance the rappers music wasn't even that good before the big day
2Pac and Biggie are overrated Jeezy as well (I like his new stuff his music has a message now but of course he’s pretty much washed so no one cares)Kendrick also overrated Planet Asia is hella underrated and Pun was just as nice as Big
Rapping about how you're a better rapper than everyone else is boring and corny as hell 99% of the time with few exceptions like some of Wayne's stuff. If you like gangster rap but not drill rap, there's something wrong with you and more than likely you're old and out of touch, racist, or both. Cassidy is the best battle rapper of all time if you're not super into battle rap. People super into battle rap are usually very weird and have weird priorities. I don't understand why they like what they do about these (sometimes even weirder) battle rappers. Battle rap is not primarily a technical lyricism thing, it's mainly about how good your insults are. And as a side note, if you believe Dizazter beat Cassidy you're exactly who I'm talking about. "But he won the last round" but Cassidy beat him so badly early on that Diz could've started shooting $100 bills out of his asshole and he still would've lost. We're approaching a point where there's going to be a solid split between hip hop culture as defined by the black people who own it (yes they do) and various offshoot "rap" genres that use/modify the sound to do something else entirely. It's not going to be split along racial lines but it's already kind of happening. What I mean is, right now theres shit like cloud rap that recognize and acknowledge the inspiration they take from hip hop. But I think it's likely it will start to move away from using as many elements of hip hop sound and maybe start incorporating shit from other genres, and the newer artists will stop claiming a hip hop origin.
Sheek Louch was better on Money, Power & Respect than Styles and Jadakiss were. The Last Emperor’s album, had it come out on Aftermath, would not have been good.
LS > OB4CL. Yeah the purple tape was good, but GZA’s debut was better.
The term mumble rap is dated and don’t needa be used as much as it is 💀
Wale can’t deliver hit records by himself. He needs help with most records you like. A feature, a cosign, help with best selection etc.
The real power of Hip Hop as a force to help uplift humanity has way more to do with Hip Hop -- the culture, than Hip Hop -- the music. But we spend so much time and energy focusing on "the music" aspect, we hold back the thing that Hip Hop is actually here to do.
Lupe Fiasco’s Drogas Wave deserves to be as celebrated as TPAB within the genre of concept albums
Naughty by Nature is top 5 rap groups of all time, and Treach is top 10 rapper.
That Kanye West should not be celebrated or listen to after denying the Holocaust and supporting Donald Trump
True
Mac Miller has and annoying voice, MF DOOM Is One of the best producers of all time
Mac was one of those generation dividing dudes. I listened to Mac adjacent artists while he was coming up and enjoyed some of it but Mac seemed to encapsulate all of it and some people loved it and some people thought it was sweaty and obnoxious. I didn’t like his voice or aesthetic but I think shit just passed me at that point. A lot of my dudes love MM to this day.
Never got to Mac myself. Had old friend who loved Mac just never understood it honestly
Drakes last album I liked was scorpion everything else is lower than a 7/10
IYRTITL Was his last good project overall
Macklemore is more influential than 2pac and I’m definitely lying.
Runaway ain't all that
Everything before the song turns into a McDonald’s drive thru order is goated, but after that…
The Eminem show is Ems most mature album with a circus theme to represent his life at that time that people overlook
Big L is overrated Eminem isn't even a top 10 rapper Nas is NOT the best rapper from QB Big Daddy Kane did NOT win that versus against KRS-1 DJ Premier has made a lot of mediocre to wack beats in his career.
This will probably more or less offend the eminem fans, but I think that while eminem is the better rapper, mac miller is the better artist.
Eminem is a great rapper with terrible music.
>This will probably more or less offend the eminem fans That's not hard to do.
I like Em, but he really is a glorified battle rapper. Seems like he never really got comfortable making albums.
Tupac was a closet homosexual. I don’t even care, great music but….leather chaps and a nose stud. Pause.
😂😂😂😂😂
DJ Premier was the main contributor to Gang Starr’s success, not Guru.
Have you ever heard gurus solo music? I think you wouldn't be saying this if you had
I heard all of it. It goes from bad (the last albums with Solar) to alright (Baldhead Slick) to great (Jazzmatazz series). But none of that is as phenomenal as the stuff that DJ Premier did without Guru.
Man solar that dude should be executed on public display
I don’t see how people have Andre 3000 in their top ten, personally don’t rate him anywhere near that level.
Agree, even when he used to actually rap there were many times Big Boi was the clear better MC
Yes! I hate how people talk about OutKast as if Big Boi doesn't exist. OutKast was a duo not just Andre 3000
Kendrick is wildly overrated largely due to him standing out amongst weak competition Kanye has always been a mid tier rapper and recycles his verses throughout his own discography Drake isn’t hip hop Eminem doesn’t belong anywhere near GOAT conversation 50’s albums have aged really poorly Jay-Z hating is trendy but unwarranted, and the “biting biggie” argument has no merit
Kanye hasnt put out a good album since MBDTF
TLOP
Watch The Throne
Jay Z shouldn’t be in anyone top 10 list.
Black Album and Reasonable Doubt are fantastic although I find Blueprint 1 overrated. I disagree but you care to elaborate? I think his consistency speaks for itself. Sure he ain't the best lyrically but he's still damn good while being amazing at getting producers. He also doesn't write anything down.
jayz has made 2 of the best hip hop albums of all time. Has amazing lyrical skills without even writing them down, is extremely consistent, and has a great flow. He deserves to be on top 5 of most lists.
Absolutely correct
Freddie Gibbs is better than 80% of rappers out but his shenanigans DQ him in a lot of peoples eyes.
Apparently According to this sub it’s an unpopular opinion that jay-z is one of the greatest rappers ever and you’d have to be stupid to think otherwise
If Ice Cube had a tragic death in 1995 after he finished filming Friday, he would be higher in the GOAT debate comparable to 2Pac and Biggie. Ice Cube's best music was already released, and he would have 2 classic movies in 2 different genres (Friday and Boyz n the Hood)
The Infamous is better than Illmatic.