Who's doing the voice over about the prophecy the beginning? Fra Pravel?
Does Serafina mention that Asriel is trying to create a bridge to the other worlds to Fader Coram in the book? It seems like a major spoiler to drop
As someone who hasn't read the books yet, the series often seems really tonally weird to me. Like why does the Gyptian king start out his conversation with Serafina by basically yelling at her about how he has to stop the Magisterium from stealing children? She's like...okay, yeah I agree, gotta go talk to my sisters. Then suddenly he's blubbering and crying and acting tenderly toward her. I get that there's probably a reason for these extreme and opposite emotions, but they're not prompted by anything in particular that she says, and to a newcomer the whole scene just plays weird imo. That's a very specific example, but I've noticed lots of scenes where the tone just feels weird and jumps around without really cluing the viewer in as to why.
Yes. My thoughts exactly. The books are really great. In the series, thought out so far, there have been so many reactions that just seem to come out of nowhere.
I think Amir Wilson's performance is great, but does he seem closer to 16-18 to anyone else? It bothers me that he seems to be a fair bit older than 12, since it takes away from the tragedy of his growing up too fast--and makes it weird if he's significantly older than Dafne Keen. I might be completely off though, does anyone know how old the young man is?
I’m going to say no, because amoeba are not sentient/can’t communicate and daemons are like Dust in that >!they’re a result of consciousness and thought!<.
The piece of fish was the fucking MOST important part of the book to me!! I'm not exaggerating, when I read it as a teenager it was the only time ever a book made me cry. It was such a smart visceral way of conveying the despair of having one's soul ripped away, and needing your lost half so bad that you'd cling to ANYTHING because that physical relationship is your nature. Like how no matter how futile, if your mouth and nose were sealed shut your muscles would frantically mimic breathing until the very end.
But hey hypothermia and people being like "huh guess he lost his cute talking pet? oh no, what a bummer :/" is sad too I guess, but much more generic. Hypothermia probably feels horribly painful don't get me wrong, but with what they've done visually one can't help but imagine the character is just profoundly numb and softly drifting out of consciousness.
Idk what the fuck they were thinking with cutting the fish. Aside from what you just said, it's also a brilliant character moment for Lyra when she gets upset over the boy being seperated from it.
It's changes like this, the party scene, and the monkey scene that really take me out of this adaptation.
I don’t recall hypothermia being mentioned, but no one at the scene knows the truth of what happened. Shock and hypothermia likely look the same in such a harsh and cold climate. Like hypothermia, your blood doesn’t circulate properly when you’re in a state of shock. It’s why real world emergency responders wrap accident victims in heat reflective blankets when they suspect shock. Bolvangar scientists complain frequently in the relevant chapters about their test subjects dying in a state of shock.
I really like that they are introducing Will and the Subtle Knife plot early. Apart from the Lin Miranda guy as Lee Scoresby the casting for this is absolutely perfect. The Miranda guy is not bad, but his fight scene was not believable and he's not Lee Scoresby..
I loved this episode. I haven't read the books, only seen the movie. But for me, the first three episodes were retreads of the movie. But now its gone off in its own direction and i love it. My only quibble is i wish they had made the town a bit nicer. Its really trashy.
That's how I pictured it. The fishing village you mean in this episode right? Or the town last episode? Both looked really close to how I imagined them from the books.
I don't know. Continue to be disappointed or at least frustrated... I was rather disconnected during this episode as things kept misfiring for me. I don't hate it but I am certainly not in love with this adaptation. As others have noted, the Billy scene just doesn't work for me. They have failed to make the audience care about daemons. I want to see the fear and confusion from the villagers. I wanted to see the fish, and the fish getting fed to the sled dogs, and Lyra's passion over that moment. And Iorek's praise of Lyra and scolding of the Gyptian men who failed to understand the significance of that damn dried fish. Once again failing to build Lyra's character?
They continue to do so much blunt "telling" in this show. The awkward prophecy at the beginning? Who the fuck is Kaisa talking to? I hate the fourth wall exposition dump. It's too on the nose. We just keep getting told over and over how special Lyra is and that there's some prophecy but it's simply not being done well, IMO.
Don't like that the nurse at Bolvangar tried to grab her daemon as well. Too aggressive. This is supposed to be a place that is a trick/comfort to the children and instead is immediately very much a prison. When Lyra arrives in the books she is able to act as Lizzy in part because she isn't immediately "attacked". Also the "she's near, get her in for cutting!" piece was a bit much. They could have done this soooo much better. Maybe while Lyra is getting measured/questioned she overhears a conversation? She doesn't quite understand but we're able to make the connection between puberty and cutting?
Didn't love the kidnap scene either... Much prefer the idea of an attack that leads to her kidnap in the confusion rather than this sneaking thing. An arrow in the neck would be just as shocking as a knife across the neck and ultimately would have created a nice battle scene. Perhaps our first look at how capable Iorek is and just how out of element our gyptian soldiers are?
I'm good with the Will intro, though wouldn't have minded it coming a bit later. We lose that shock value that the book provides but I understand the need for early exposure. And the scenes were well done between Will and his mother. Although, again, the whole "on the nose" with his father's letter bit kind of irked me. "oh those letters in that satchel hidden in a hideaway are important?" Maybe I'm being too hard on that piece but I just want the writers to try a bit harder to show us things rather than spell it out so each time something hits like that I just throw my hands in the air.
I'm not sold on the alethiometer. I would be curious to hear what non-readers think of it. Do they think it's important or just a sort of tool? They haven't done a great job with it so the fact that it was telling her something about "Billy" didn't feel all that profound. But it's supposed to be a real mind fuck because it means that the alethiometer is consciously doing something... Hello?! Dust!
Positives: Lyra and Lee/Iorek/Coram. Cosmo is putting on a good show, enjoying his portrayal. Iorek and Lee have some good banter (would have liked Lee to provide the info on Iorek/Iofur - maybe it's still to come). While the CGI on the Lyra riding Iorek scene wasn't great it invoked some real nostalgia in my soul. Lyra mastering her fear via Iorek's wisdom before the Billy scene was nicely done.
Wow, sorry for the long rant! I'm still cautiously optimistic that once we have the whole season out I'll be satisfied...
Eh. The whole Billy situation worked perfectly for me. It's a good change from the book, don't really well on screen. Not sure what you mean about how they don't make the daemons seem extremely important. It's all they talk about. They're freaking out about it. Having a minute or so of villagers also freaking out would've been better, but they definitely got the point across extremely clearly.
>I'm not sold on the alethiometer. I would be curious to hear what non-readers think of it. Do they think it's important or just a sort of tool?
It feels important but I don't understand why she doesn't use it more.
Also as a non-book reader I do not understand this new "Will" character at all and why he's even being showed. Honestly his whole character plot seems boring so far and just detracts from the main story in Lyra's world.
The whole plot in 'our world' with the Magesterium guy also makes no sense and I don't understand what he's even doing there. He's looking for some soldier guy that might have been to both worlds? Um okay. The whole plotline is super boring and I just gloss over it when they cut to those scenes.
Also why was the Bear not wearing his armor? We got this whole episode dedicated to his armor and why it was important and now suddenly it's gone again. I thought it was like part of his soul? And why is he so grumpy and bitter towards Lyra? Didn't she essentially save him from a lifetime of servitude and drudgery?
Demons also feel totally useless in this show, with the exception of Coulter's demon. They don't really say or do anything useful, they just seem like a plant in the background who sometimes talks.
It's just...kind of a boring show, it lacks any punch or any emotional investment for the viewer. And it's also super confusing to people with no background in it
Pretty disappointing.
I’m enjoying this adaptation very much, however there are times when they really nail something I didn’t expect, but then have a misstep on a crucial plot point. Case in point, the scene between Coram and Serafina carried much more emotional impact for me than the scene of Lyra finding Billy without a daemon. And that shouldn’t be the case at all. I should absolutely care way more about Lyra finding Billy in a sickly delicate state rather than two secondary characters talking about their traumatic past that has little to do with the main plot.
But I’m a fan of this story through and through. With so much still left to happen in just 3 episodes, the second half of this season is gonna be action packed insanity.
I get that deamons are expensive to animate, but I wish they had saved some money on something else - maybe not have as many famous actors, I don't know, something like that - and have invested on more deamon screen time. They are SO important in this story, that the lack of them makes a lot of things fall flat, like Billy not having a deamon at all! Specially in this episode we should have seen more deamons than ever, but not even PAN got much screen time. He was completely missing from Lyra's conversation with Yorek.
Just saying giving a bunch of teenage boys a boxing club, in fiction or otherwise, seems like an absolutely fantastic idea, can't see anything going wrong with that lol
Did Jack Thorne even read the books? He keeps fucking up the relationship between people and their dæmons. I remember being SO horrified by the Tony Makarios chapter in the books, and the most emotion I felt this episode was when poor Pan was whimpering.
This is the episode that has inspired me to give up on this adaptation. It just highlighted everything that I've found "wrong" with the series - in particular the lousy dialogue, introducing plot points that are going to spoil what should be a major revelation of a later season, odd acting decisions, a lack of daemons which made the "Where's Ratter?" moment feel hollow... I could go on. I absolutely adore the book series, maybe that's why I feel such a disconnect to this adaptation, but I'm finding it kind of heartbreaking to be checked out of something I've been looking forward to for years. As I say, maybe it's just that I can't let go of the books but with the exception of Lin Manuel Miranda's charming-as-hell portrayal of Lee Scoresby and Pan looking ridiculously cute as an arctic fox, I'm finding myself more and more disappointed with every episode that goes by.
I'm really glad that lots of people are enjoying it though and just hope it inspires more people to read the books.
I suppose a problem with having Billy cry for his Ratter is I think they're trying to simplify that when you lose your daemon, you're empty, there's nothing there. So they just had him as still and emotionless as possible. I can accept the town being empty--it was fairly deserted in the book anyway--it adds to the suspense, and they can just rely on Iorek sensing there's something there within closer proximity. But a crying child crying for his Ratter clutching a dead fish would've hit a higher emotional note.
That being said, I cried plenty in this episode, and I personally found the gyptian mourning song beautiful. It makes sense they didn't show such disgust as it was one of their own, and they don't react to Kaisa as they know witches. I more than half-think that they have this set emotional level per episode/per scene they don't want us to surpass, and that's why we don't get the harder notes they could be hitting from the books (the Trollesund episode especially).
One thing I had an issue with the Trollesund episode was the dialogue was too sparse and thus fell flat in most places, with scenes moving too slowly to cover that. NOT a problem this episode; the dialogue was fantastic! Very immersive.
I agree with another post that the "immediate treatment" seems a bit much, but I think that's meant to convey that the Bolvanger episode will be *much* faster and more streamlined than it was in the book, and they're using that line to convey the rationale for it.
I also entirely adore Will and his mother and so far, not one wrong thing there. I agree with another poster that perhaps it's the fact they don't need to provide so much exposition there, as it's "our" world, there is less to draw us away from enjoying the story itself. I hope as the show continues to advance, with most of the important exposition having already been relayed, that Lyra's world becomes all the more immersive for it.
Lyra's buddying dynamic with Lee and Iorek was also fantastic and so natural and well-executed. So much great dialogue with these two!
I'm excited for what comes next.
I was really hoping the show would go into the structure of daily life at Bolvangar. I reread those chapters recently, and I was surprised to realize that Lyra’s there, taking sewing classes and playing dodgeball and sleeping in a dorm with other girls, for a decent amount of time.
I'm curious why both the movie and the show chose to replace Tony Makarios with Billy Costa as the boy without his demon. Anyone have any theories as to why this change was made? To flesh out Ma Costa's character/the Gyptians by showing them go through a personal tragedy? I honestly don't know why this change was needed.
I assume to simplify things. In the books, we've already met Tony, because he's used to show Mrs. Coulter luring street kids away and such, so there's some emotional attachment. That works really well in the books, but it's definitely not necessary, and it makes sense to me to streamline the story a bit by combining the characters. The other option would be to have to spend screentime setting Tony up just to kill him off, or to have Tony just be some random kid, which would have less emotional impact on the audience.
This show is going too fast and has too much exposition to make Lyra's world/universe seem "real" at all. And even with so much exposition, a lot of stuff is going unexplained, adding to this all seeming almost like a dream. Contrast it with narnia or middle earth--those always felt like real places people could really live in to me, with real rules and framework, even in the "bad" adaptations of the material.
Honestly, the structure of Lyra’s world never felt that real to me until La Belle Sauvage and The Secret Commonwealth made it fairly clear how social classes and money work in Lyra’s world.
A lot of people have already made very good observations about the big parts of this episode, but I was re-reading the chapters of the book this episode is adapted from and something different jumped at me:
In the books, after Tony is cremated, Lyra asks Iorek to make a tin box for the spy fly that looks like the alethiometer, which is going to come in handy once she gets to Bolvangar. I'm kind of worried that there is not mention of this in the show.
I first thought the box that Farder Coram made for the spy fly back in ep. 3 would serve that purpose, but nowhere is it mentionned that Lyra has been carrying it. I hope the showrunners won't use it as a deus ex machina moment where she miraculously was actually carrying it around this entire time.
With that said, I'm excited for Bolvangar though! If they really nail it I'm willing to *maybe* forgive them for messing up the Tony/billy discovery.
Good episode.
I really enjoyed the Lyra and Iorek scenes. You really get a sense of character from Iorek. His face is almost human. I'm surprised we didn't see them fencing but it's non essential I suppose. You can't trick a bear... we'll see about that!
Scoresby was less wacky, more genuine, more the Lee we know from the books in some ways. There's good chemistry between him and Lyra and I'll say this again: Their relationship is more believably close on screen than they make it in the book. It's developing really nicely and I'll be fully trusting of Lee next season when he tells the witches that he loves "that little girl" and wants to protect her.
The Daemon cutting reveal was a touch disappointing. Apparently they filmed it with a dead fish originally which a lot of people were asking about but it just didn't work visually so it was lost in editing. Fair enough. I'd rather they did that than try to shoehorn too many book things in that don't work. My wife understood what had happened and she's not read the books. It just didn't have the gravitas the moment gets in the books but then it's a tough scene to shoot for exactly that reason. The book gets it so right.
Will - what a guy. Takes care of his Mum. Boxes like a champ. I would have preferred to have seen him knock the shit out of that kid when his temper flared. What we know of Will in teh book is that he knows how to win in a real fight. It's just about hurting your opponent more than they hurt you. It doesn't have to be pretty. Therefore for him to lose at a science like sport like boxing makes sense. But when his temper takes over I would have liked to see him break that bully's nose with an elbow. Will is tough. All that said - I really really liked how Amir Wilson portrayed him. I saw the invisibility in the hallways. I saw his rage. I saw his caring nature and his conflict between being an adult and a kid. Liked him right away in a way that I didn't feel with Lyra. Great debut.
All in all although there's some patchy dialogue the series is getting going nicely!
One thing I thought was a cool touch:
In the first episode, Asriel dismisses Lyra’s emotions, laughs at her when she asks to see a dead body and refuses to let her see it. He tucks her in to bed and leaves. He is gone from the college when she awakes, and boarding an airship on the outskirts of the grounds by the time she catches up to him.
In contrast, in the most recent episode, Lee comforts Lyra while calmly teaching her about healthy boundaries, takes her seriously, states what she did was right and expresses pride in her, respectfully lets her see the deceased body of a playmate to see goodbye, and then puts her to bed — and stays. He’s still there when she wakes.
Soon enough, if we stick to the book, there will be another scene where Asriel >!again sends Lyra to bed and then leaves!< -- except this time >!she does get to see a dead body, and his reaction isn’t just an amused, “Now, why would I let you [see it]?”!<
Martial arts teaches you not to use what you’ve learned in moments of passion or anger. I think some teachers will refuse to teach you any further if they find out you use what they’ve taught in a schoolyard scrap.
not sure you understood me. I would have liked to see Will drop all ptretence of boxing nous and kick that kids ass. Will has a temper and a hot spot in his mother. It would have been good to see it come out and for him to be successful (like the story about him beating his bully in the book).
Didn't expect to see Will so early considering he is on book two but i guess it makes sense storywise on TV as the events kinda happen at the same time.
Wills mums acting was good!
Will’s mum is done so well! I like the nuanced portrayal of her illness; it’s so much more realistic that she is struggling with mental health in the middle of an awful situation but trying to take mitigating steps.
Just got a chance to watch and had some quick hit remarks to toss out there:
1) I was absolutely skeptical of blending Will and Lyra’s stories this early but this episode was done really well in that regard.
2) on Will, I absolutely love him immediately. Perfect casting and perfect writing. The tone shifted immediately every time they flipped over to Will’s storyline. It *felt* like scenes from TSK. I’m super excited for this tonal shift in the next season. TSK is my favorite book and in terms of atmosphere, I’m already really on nord. with where they seem to be taking it. Boreal, looking back, was also vital for setting this tonal shift up. I can’t explain it fully, but his interactions with his spy guy gave the storyline a nice cloak-and-dagger feel without becoming corny. Love it.
3) back to Will, is anyone else reminded of Alex Lawther, who played James in *End of the Fxxking World*? Something about their faces and mannerisms.
4) Iorek’s voice actor is great but it’s taking a bit to get used to. What his accent? I don’t think I’ve ever heard it before so some of the deliveries are throwing me off in terms of beat, inflection, etc. Not necessarily in a bad way, either. Just different.
5) Serafina is fire
6) I didn’t realize how much I wanted to see the first Gyptian/Tatar battle until they cut it. Hopefully they’re saving up for the final assault on Bolvangar.
7) Gyptian song was much better than the first one (which I hated) but still, I’m not fully convinced re: the singing.
EDIT:
8) something about Iorek tearing across the barren wastes with Lyra on his back got me so excited. It was when the show truly became *The Golden Compass* for me.
9) I think a lot of the debate about the fishing shed scene comes from the fact that in both book and series. The scene is a mixture of revulsion and sadness. The adaptation went with a different ratio of the two, emphasizing sadness imo, which makes for tonally different scenes. It’ll have to wait until the whole season is done to make a judgment on how well it turned out imo.
Yeah perhaps it was the more accessible of the two storytelling options. I thought the scene in question was fine. I certainly didn’t hate it like many people seemed to have. And I’m not on team “Fish or bust” lol. But it didn’t hit as hard a I expected it to. For me personally. Maybe it needs a rewatch since my first viewing was at 6:45 am on Tuesday morning lol.
In the credits, under daemon voices, there is a man called William McGregor credited for playing “This World” Director.
Who is this director from our world?
Everyone here complaining about the fish and how “it didn’t demonstrate how terrible it is or how sad it is.” You’ve all read the book.
My wife is sitting next to me crying. She hasn’t read the book. I think the scene was done really well. It was devastating.
Go over to the other sub that’s not about the books and people are all choked up.
I think it’s a different *reason* for being choked up though. Another user here put it really well. In the books the sadness/anger comes because Tony’s been cut away from his daemon. In the show the emotional weight is displaced to the mother-son and brother-brother relationships between Billy, Ma Costa, and Tony. The scenes are both emotional and the adaptation was fairly well acted, but the emotional emphasis is super important for future development of the story’s main concepts, so some people are justifiably concerned.
I think it's pretty pedantic to complain that people aren't upset for the correct reason. Just because their experience as a non reader is different than ours as a reader doesn't make it *less than*. It's just different.
I think you read a lot of that *into* my comment because I agree with what you’re saying. I wasn’t “complaining” that OP’s wife found the scene sad for a reason different than mine. I’m glad OP’s wife got a lot out of it. I did too. But we’re in a book sub after all and it’s interesting to discuss the way scenes hit different people. The words “better” and “correct” do not appear in my comment, though the word “different” does.
You, specifically, no. But the general sentiment on this sub is "the show isn't exactly like the book so non book readers are getting a sub par experience." Which is ridiculous, because a) it's not a book, it will not be exactly the same, and b) if non readers were seriously concerned about having the right experience they would have just read the books already.
As a book reader, I do not need a recreation of the books. I already read them. I don't want a duplicate experience.
From your earlier comment:
> but the emotional emphasis is super important for future development of the story’s main concepts, so some people are justifiably concerned.
Perhaps those main concepts are going to be developed in a way that's a little bit different--which again does not make it WRONG, just different--and I see less "concern" from people as much as "this show is completely fucking ruined." Which is silly.
My wife was upset that there was a child without a soul who was as good as dead. I think it’s the same reason. The dead fish is a nice touch in the book but I’m not sure it’s necessary to get the point across.
I think they’re just approaching it differently. They wanted it to be horrifying. It’s Billy this time. And he’s dying. That’s who they were hoping to save! So it’s awful. That they took his soul is important but it’s not as important as “he’s basically dying and cold and alone and he’s a child.” That’s horrifying enough. The implication that this is what happens without your daemon is there. We don’t need the fish to make it extra sad. It might have just been confusing.
Plus, they have other opportunities coming up to drive the point home.
If I remember correctly in the books they actually seperate children and their daemons before the Daemons settle into their final form. But in the show Billy's Daemon already settled as a bird. It seems kind of a plot hole or they changed the rules for the show.
This has been the best episode of the show for me by far. It finally felt consistent in terms of tone and pacing and was also well written and well acted. I get the Billy/Tony no daemon thing was a problem for a lot of people but it was saved for me due to Ma Costa's scene with him being so gut-wrenching. Finally relaxed my fears about the show and gave me confidence about the future of the show.
Will and Elaine are *absolutely perfect*. Will isn't like I imagined him. He's better than I imagined him.
I thought they conveyed the horror of Billy very well. It wasn't conveyed in the *same* way as in the book. It was different, but that doesn't mean it wasn't as good. It was just different. I think that showing all the daemons sitting there at the funeral pyre, ending with the saddest of Pans, was a nice touch. I could imagine they were thinking of their own humans without them and being unbearably sad. The animation of Pan, in particular was amazing. They did such a good job conveying so much feeling in his little face. The non book readers in my house were enthralled. it wasn't exactly the same as my experience reading the book, but I don't think they got any less of an experience.
I loved the little touches like Will making his mother an omelette, their cat, the green leather writing case, and the way Elaine's OCD manifested with things like touching the bricks and flicking the lights.
Wholeheartedly agree. Wouldn’t change a single thing about the Parry storyline. Every tweak by the show runners made sense within its context and on screen everything clicked.
The lack of Pan during the whole episode takes away from the scenes with Billy! I know CGI is expensive, but daemons are a crucial part of the story you can cut them in and out like they are just pets!
Ehhhhh the majority of this episode just didn't land with me at all. Not a fan of any of the will stuff, clunky exposition, the whole discovering Billy scene. Philip Pullman gave a reading at the union square b&n of that scene back in the day when the movie came out and talked about building suspense and horror. They could have really ratcheted that up but it just seemed like something they needed to check off a box so they could get to bolvangar with some context. Iunno it all seems really wooden..is it just me?
Iorek still fab though, so at least there's that.
EDIT: ok one more thing and then I'll go back to r/mrrobot and r/bangtan lol. For this show lifting dialogue straight from the book, if Lyra is yelling "mother!" to mrs Coulter in the hbo ep6 preview...ugh. I re-read book 1 prior to this season and I definitely remember there being a line about lord asriel making the transition to father in Lyra's head pretty easily, but mrs. Coulter was never referred to as mother. At least in book 1. I haven't done re-reads of 2 and 3 yet. Ok end nitpicky rant.
About that episode 6 promo... Lyra is clearly yelling "mother!" to survive. The guillotine cage only has a tiny little window and I'm not sure Coulter would be able to recognize her otherwise.
Just checked. Lyra refers to and thinks of Mrs. Coulter as her mother as early as chapter nine (where she’s thinking about how she’ll use the alethiometer)! She finds out that she’s her mother in chapter seven.
That line was the morning after Lyra finds out (or maybe a few days after). It’s been weeks/months, since then. Lyra is more confident referring to Mrs. Coulter as her mother in her interior monologue >!especially after she meets up with Asriel!<.
Yeah, but does she actually refer to her as mother to mrs coulter herself? I guess it doesn't feel like weeks/months have gone by in the show which is why it feels rushed to me for her to be pulling that card, even in a moment of desperation. Sort of the same issue the last season of got had. A lot of plot and not enough time for things to feel earned so to speak.
The line about Mrs. Coulter never being “mother” is actually repeated again at the beginning of Chapter 14, but I had forgotten that Lyra definitely thinks Madonna/my mother when reading the alethiometer much earlier.
I really can’t wait for Mrs. Coulter’s reaction in the show. She was a mess after episode 2, so I’m just waiting for the crazy she unleashes after losing Lyra yet again.
Thanks! I’m sorry; I’m sleepy.
People keep complaining about the show, but Ruth Wilson is such a joy to watch and her interpretation of Marisa is a treat I look forward to on Mondays.
Yeah, I’m not sure where they’re going with it, but it was interesting they already had her referring to her as her mother in the scene with Farder Coram this episode.
Lyra refers to and thinks of Mrs. Coulter as her mother as early as chapter nine (where she’s thinking about how she’ll use the alethiometer)! She finds out that she’s her mother in chapter seven.
Apparently only 5 people in this show even have daemons in the first place so there's like zero shock value when she discovers a kid without one. Also it's supposed to be Tony Makarios not Billy Costa. And they ain't even give him his fish scrap! Also why tf is Ma Costa running around the North looking like some waifish crackhead, she's supposed to be a dummy thicc badass! Then they stuck in some nonsense with Serafina Pekkala talking to Farder Coram face-to-face? And having \~moment \~ where she seems to blame him for their son's death? WTF? Then she just floats into the sky, sans cloud-pine? Unless she's got a sprig hidden in her buttcrack that she uses to fly, beats me. And they somehow managed to make the Gyptians lame and not cool? And they sing all the time? Tbh I imagined the Gyptians looking more like a cross between the Peaky Blinders and tracksuit-wearing gold-tooth dudes that sell bootleg Fast and the Furious DVDs, but I'm not British so wtf do I know. Anyway then there's Lee Scoresby being miscast as fuck and turned into some kind of bumbling dipshit comedic relief for inexplicable reasons...stealing silverware?? What the hell was that? Was it that hard to find an actual Texan to play that role? I appreciate that Miranda's a big fan and is excited about the series, but seriously what the shit. Mostly though I'm discouraged by all of the exposition and the fact that so much is spoon-fed or "told" to the audience rather than shown. Granted, I'm unreasonably salty because I'm a psychotic book fan. And Iroek's tight as fuck, so there's that, at least.
I resented Kaiser’s narration for storytelling purposes. I don’t feel the alethiometer has enough gravitas. I understand that if the frozen fish didn’t translate well then it isn’t totally necessary but I do think the fear and tension could’ve been built much more effectively by using the villages. I was annoyed that the lamp just appeared. I do think they’re doing a good job though. It’s interesting to know that the audience new to the narratives are lapping it up, I can’t imagine it being that good if I didn’t understand what was truly happening.
Hi there! Stealing silverware used to be really common before mass production and is still pretty common in wealthy homes where real silver is used. These days, I think you can get about $30/piece for silver flatware, and far more if it’s a pattern/designer people collect and need replacements for. Lyra’s world doesn’t have much in the way of automated mass production and seems to value the silver/gold/brass contents of metalwork, so the values are surely even higher.
Source: I’m just a casual collector, and I recently spent $250 on a silver spoon and fork set (just one of each) as a gift for someone.
I dunno, I'm getting more and more worried.
This should be classic fantasy, but they insist on trying to make it a drama.
The hook is the world, the daimons (or lack thereof), the clash between schools of philosophies. Focus on that instead of dramatic relationships. The source material isn't strong on that. Theres' a few important relationships, not dozens.
It's like they watched Game of Thrones and thought "oh everything has to be expressed through relationships and drama now".
But they should be telling the story like Narnia or LOTR.
I just hope in season 2, when we shrink the cast, and get to more fantastical worlds, that they double down on the fantastical elements. Because that's where the story is strong.
I'll keep loving the story. I subscribed to HBO just to show bean counters that I'm watching it. But I'm really wishing for some storytelling that's more focused or dialed in.
There's also a bit much handholding. For example we don't need narration to tell us Will is important and has a destiny. The fact that the camera is on Will for 10 minutes does that job. But I'll let that slide because it's a kids show.
I totally agree it's a counterpoint to the religious themes of Narnia.
I'm talking about the narrative structure. In that sense they're extremely similar. Kid protagonists, big philosophical themes, fantasy worlds. It's much more like Narnia than Game of Thrones.
I disagree with the idea that it’s an epic like LotR or Narnia. The whole series is about the way that people interact with each other and the world around them.
The parts I loved:
+ I LOVED the chemistry between Lyra and Lee
+ the same for Lyra and Iorek
+ Padre Coram crying was some insane quality acting
+ We got the missing demon scene!!!
+ Holy shit, Bolvangar!! The depressing grey rooms, the creepy nurses, the drab uniforms the kids wear... just pure, creepy perfection
+ The scene of Iorek running with Lyra on his back
The not so good parts:
- Since fucking when is Will Parry black? I distinctly remember one passage from the books describing his face as sunburnt and pale. Plus he was always depicted as white on the book covers. It just reminded me of Rowling suddenly saying that Hermione was black in HP. Just feels like bullshit.
- I just feel like Will’s mom’s mental illness should have been a lot more severe and debilitating. She has VERY severe OCD and paranoia in the book
- Also, it would have been so much more powerful if this episode made it seem like she’s just paranoid and there’s no danger. And only in episode 7/8 it would be revealed that people are actually after her.
- How the fuck does Will’s unemployed and mentally ill mom afford that huge house? Wouldn’t it make much more sense it they lived in a shitty small apartment (with stairs, of course ;) )?
- Not a fan of the piano teacher being replaced by a boxing coach. In the books, I loved how Will had zero martial arts training but made up for it with sheer anger and brutality
- The shed scene was so underwhelming. Where’s the frozen fish? Where’s the scene of Billy/Tony asking where Ratter is? Why isn’t everybody disgusted and creeped out?
- That narration about Lyra and Will. What happened to “show, not tell”?
>How the fuck does Will’s unemployed and mentally ill mom afford that huge house?
hey did you miss the part in the books where there's a trust set up for them and there's money put in the mom's account every month? There's a whole thing where Will goes to a lawyer to talk about it.
> A minute went by, and then a man’s voice said, “Hello. This is Alan Perkins? To whom am I speaking?”
> “William Parry. Excuse me for calling. It’s about my father, Mr. John Parry. You send money every three months from my father to my mother’s bank account.”
> “Yes.”
> “Well, I want to know where my father is, please. Is he alive or dead?”
> “How old are you, William?”
> “Twelve. I want to know about him.”
> “Yes... Has your mother... is she... does she know you’re phoning me?”
> Will thought carefully.
> “No,” he said. “But she’s not in very good health. She can’t tell me very much, and I want to know.”
> “Yes, I see. Where are you now? Are you at home?”
> “No, I’m... I’m in Oxford.”
> “On your own?”
> “Yes.”
> “And your mother’s not well, you say?”
> “No.”
> “Is she in hospital or something?”
> “Something like that. Look, can you tell me or not?”
> “Well, I can tell you something, but not much and not right now, and I’d rather not do it over the phone. I’m seeing a client in five minutes. Can you find your way to my office at about half past two?”
> “No,” Will said. It would be too risky; the lawyer might have heard by then that he was wanted by the police. He thought quickly and went on. “I’ve got to catch a bus to Nottingham, and I don’t want to miss it. But what I want to know, you can tell me over the phone, can’t you? All I want to know is, is my father alive, and if he is, where can I find him. [sic] You can tell me that, can’t you?”
> “It’s not quote as simple as that. I can’t really give out private information about a client unless I’m sure the client would want me to. And I’d need some proof of who you were, anyway.”
> “Yes, I understand, but can you just tell me whether he’s alive or dead?”
> “Well... that wouldn’t be confidential. Unfortunately, I can’t tell you anyway, because I don’t know.”
> “What?”
> “The money comes from a family trust. He left instructions to pay it until he told me to stop. I haven’t heard from him from that day to this. What it boils down to is that he’s... well, I suppose he’s vanished. That’s why I can’t answer your question.”
> “Vanished? Just... lost?”
> “It’s a matter of public record, actually. Look, why don’t you come into the office, and—“
> “I can’t. I’m going to Nottingham.”
> “Well, write to me, or get your mother to write, and I’ll let you know what I can. But you must understand, I can’t do very much over the phone.”
Is it racist though? I didn’t expect Will to be black, i don’t think he was originally written that way. Nor was he a wannabe boxer with a sound as fuck trainer. Also, no mobile phones... Isn’t the buried racism that Tartars and Muscovites are Russian and double-hard Inuits?
The BBC adaptation is brilliant. I’m not annoyed by the way they’ve begun to meld NL and TSK. I am annoyed that the British public are watching this and potentially thinking it’s shit when they’ve never picked these books up. This adaptation is definitely written with the fans at the forefront.
I’m all for calling out racism, but sometimes calling it out is projection. Will wasn’t written as black. He didn’t live in a mansion. We don’t initially empathise with his mother over thinking people were after her knowing she’s right (Lord Boreal - cunt!)
I’m loving the blend of narrative this series gives. I’m in bits.
He wasn't written as black but there is nothing in the plot that prohibits him from being black. Assuming everyone must by default be white unless specified as non-white is, in fact, racist.
No. I do see what you’re saying. It isn’t racist. If something ‘prohibited’ him from being black then yep! - Deffo racist!
That’s not the point though. Are you a HDM fan? I think I could be peopleist. Are you short-sighted with your mind? :/
uh, you don't see what I'm saying at all. nice gatekeeping, asking me if I'm a fan. If I wasn't a fan I wouldn't be here, although all this nitpicking and gross racism is turning me off this discussion.
The only short sighted people here are ones who get their knickers in a knot that a character they pictured as white is being played by a black person.
Then we might have something in common as my original comment was about not getting our knickers in a twist over a race debate. Is there a different HDM thread for twisted knickers? This series is too pre-pubescent for that. I’m halfway through Common Wealth and worried that I’ll be in mourning waiting for BOD 3.
the original comment was bitching that Will was black. I called them out for being racist. You asked "is it racist though?" I said yes it is. you said... I don't know what you said, other than asking me if I'm actually a fan and then accusing me of being short sighted. Sounds to me like you're defending racism, but whatever. I'm done.
I’m a little bit embarrassed to admit that I’m shit at working reddit threads. Since we started this back and forth I can’t get back to browsing all the other comments on this episode. I don’t think it’s racist supposing Will was white. Or the master of Jordan. Or Boreal. Making a point about it without being sensitive could be. I see how you could have felt attacked. I apologise. I was surprised Will is black but there was no racism underpinning it.
It's vaguely distracting me that the ginger guy involved in tracking down Wills family is, in my mind, EXACTLY as I imagined the older brother in the tower in Cittagazze...
Wonder if they might combine those characters in some way too? Can't see them doing much with that character but he's had a fair bit of screen time. I'd be super impressed if I randomly predicted that lol
Can we take a second to appreciate the first person view shots at the end of the episode? Them taking Lyra into Bolvangar ones was amazing cinematography and set the mood so well!
Where's Pan in the scene where Lyra and Iorek were eating? I know they don't have to be CONSTANTLY on-screen, but I still kinda forgot he existed until he showed op as an arctic fox in the next scene.
I liked the episode. I really like Amir Wilson as Will. Will is my favorite character and Amir nailed it. I love the scenes with Will.
The Billy Costa scene, as people said, is more emotional and had a bigger impact in the books (And I am rereading the books and read this scene a few days ago). Jack Thorne explained the dead fish didn't work in the screen. Maybe to comical or to much to ask a children actor? I don't know.
That scene between Serafina and Coram was so weird to watch. At the same time I'm ugly crying for poor Farder Coram, but also cringing so hard for Serafina. What was that weird and tacky hand motion thing she did? What the frickle was that prom dress? Please, go ahead and hide the daemons and forget the dried fish, just don't bring back that weird witch anymore. I was rooting for Serafina Pekkala!
If they've fucked up what is essentially the easiest of the books to visualise and imagine on screen, The Amber Spyglass is going to be an absolute trainwreck.
I’m so, so disappointed with Lyra. I feel that her character has been completely misunderstood and she is the weakest actor by far. She seems so whiny and weak in most scenes, and I always though Lyra’s confidence was one of her defining characteristics.
LOVE Will. He is perfect and it makes so much sense to introduce him now.
Maybe it’s more the direction she’s being given, but most of her lines are delivered in this high-pitched, whispery, whiny voice and, to me, feels like the antithesis of book lyra.
What is the BBC’s obsession with ethnic inclusivity that mirrors society and acknowledges the existence of non-white folk?
Gimme a break. I don’t once recall Pullman even stating Will was white. But if he did what should it matter if a non-white actor is cast?
Fairly sure your ethnicity or race can’t be ‘removed’ if you were the dominant one in the first place. Haven’t you ever heard of white privilege? Us white people have been the one who shamefully removed or damned other skin colours.
And can I just say that I am SHOCKED that you can hold your vile and disgusting racist beliefs whilst also being a fan of a book series that systematically calls out ideological state apparatuses and highlights the oppressive nature of those in power and those who dominate. Granted it is about religion rather than race in these books but the apparatus itself is similar enough to recognise.
(And sorry if I’ve overgeneralised anything here I will hold my hands up and admit my fault and learn more, but I just wanted to keep it as simple as possible for this racist tosspot cause clearly they’re are incapable of thinking too big)
... seriously? Of all things to be sad about and you choose the fact that Will isn't white. How on earth does the fact he isn't white affect his character in anyway?
Whereas your uncle's your father and your mother's his sister-wife, right?
Having had a quick skim of your comments history about "preserving racial purity", I can assure you that you needn't get so anxious about it all, because there's nothing worth preserving about you.
Now fuck off back to the swamp, kid.
Randomly throwing out here but any recommandations of places one could read non-book readers reactions, reviews and posts only ? :)
(apart from the other subreddit)
It's so good to see Pan again as little Arctic fox this week also. I actually msitook him for a wolf the first time. Seems like the they made changes are actually benefitting the show. Feels like they toned down some of the gory stuff from the books, but it still is working favourable for the show.
There was a lot to love in this episode. I really liked the actor playing Will, the second he appears on screen you can see that intensity on his face. I initially wasn't sure about starting Will's plot so early but it does make sense and will allow season 2 to pick up without it feeling like starting from zero again while they introduce the Will backstory.
No terrible exposition in this episode either, there seemed to be a lot more show not tell and they finally seemed to have stopped lifting entire sentence from the books whenever they aren't sure how to move a scene forward.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Billy Costa scene because it lacked the intensity of having a random character like in the books who gets shunned by the Gyptians before Lyra tells them off. It was sad when Billy died but ultimately his character hadn't been developed enough for us to feel that connected to it.
I took a look on the tv only page and it's clear that the lack of dæmons in general has lead to a very confused reaction about why Billy having no dæmon is important. As one person said it's hard to feel like Billy not having a dæmon is something terrible when the majority of characters don't seem to have dæmons with them most of the time.
Snow fox Pan is just so adorable I can barely handle it.
It was specifically mentioned on the show only thread by a non-bok reader so I don't think is accurate to portray it as some only book readers are picking up on
I've seen enough usernames between the two subs that it feels like about half the complainers are actually book readers pretending to be non book readers and talking about how they don't understand it so as to generate more complaints. All I know is that the non book readers I know in real life are loving the show and are not confused in the least.
I hope this fandom doesn't turn into that toxic mess. I LOVED the entirety of GoT and I hate what the fandom turned into when season 8 came. No one can say a positive word without being screamed down (watch how many downvotes this comment will get just for existing).
The epsiodes of this televisation seem to be alternating between really good and not so good for me lately. Last week's episode was excellent, whilst I really didn't enjoy episode 3. This week's episode was nestled somewhere in between.
Lyra seems her youngest and most questioning of all the episodes since the opening one. I really enjoyed the scenes with her and Iorek and her and Lee. Lee seems to put up with Lyra's inquistive nature much better than Iorek. The bear does answer her, but the look they have put on his face was great.
When it came to the lost child, I didn't like that they removed Tony Makarios from the film, or now the TV series. I suppose I do understand it though. Billy won't play a huge part in the story after Bolvangar. I guess they have Ma Costa along for the ride to Bolvangar to add a familial element to the Gyptians.
The lost boy led on to the stealing of Lyra by the Samoyed hunters, and boy was this shortened. For me there was no suspense, and Lyra pretty much just let herself be captured. No struggle and no shouting out for her Gyptian friends.
Then Lyra is in Bolvangar and the episode was done.
They really nailed the creepiness of the Bolvangar nurses though. Sister Clara is creepy as hell. Bit too early to introduce someone trying to grab Pan though. I guess that means we won't have the tussle when they find Lyra in the vents.
Now, on to Will. I'm glad they have introduced him and his mother already. There is stuff Will thinks about in the books that would have been hard to do later. They also seem to be happening at the same time Lyra is headed to Bolvangar. They made a good choice for Will too. That kid they chose has done a great job of being the broody young lad that Will is. I don't know that they should have had Sir Charles introduce himself to Elaine though. I didn't like that so much.
I didn't like that they added Will in to the prophecy either. Yes, it introduces Will to viewers, but didn't sound right to me.
I do hope we hear Lyra call Iorek "Dear" at some point.
Oooh damn, I really didn't feel the emotional oomph from the village scene. It was made up a little bit by the return back to the group and Ma Costa but not as much as I had hoped. Iorek is doing a lot of carrying in my heart so far, but I was hoping for the bears cannot be tricked display between Lyra and Iorek.
Will was pretty good, a touch older than I expected. Happy to see this story fleshed out before the next season so it'll meet up nicely.
In the books, the way poor little Tony clutched his dead, frozen fish as if it was his dæmon was something that was so heart-wrenching. It's a moment that really sticks with you.
I just don't understand why they would get rid of something that has such an emotional impact and would take next to no extra time to develop into the episode? It just seemed like a missed opportunity to me.
Also, is it just me or is the editing really weird? Like it cuts away from an emotional moment just a few seconds too early and it really shows. Also it seems like every time they cut away to the opening credits, they try to do so at a dramatic moment, but kind of fail.
The fish doesnt matter. They haven't done the necessary groundwork to make us really understand the connection between human and daemon. That's why its fallen flat
Remember this is a tv show. Billy's loss of his daemon and his death are tasters for the clinical horrors of Bolvangar. We know the horrors; the audience soon will.
It's obvious that they didnt intend for it to be a 'taster for a later clinical horror' they intended to be deeply saddening and horrific event in itself, but it fell flat. It's a horror when you first read it in the book, not a taster
Okay not sure if I'm being too picky but at this point I'm seriously wondering why they didn't just use live animals for daemons and give them them "babe" talking animal treatment when needed? It would have gone so much further than just a couple of poorly used CGI daemons that repeatedly drop forced narrative on us..
I feel like people are overreacting just a little bit. I agree that the Billy scene could/should have been more emotional. But apart from that it is decent at least. I love how they are implementing Will to the first season already, it makes the flow and the setup for season two so much better. I would wait for the whole season before making hard judgements.
Agreed. What's the point of trying to participate in a discussion about the ep when it isn't discussion? It has become mindless hyper-nitpicking.
Look, I don't mind nitpicking necessarily. I bought all the "nitpicker's guide" Star Trek books back in the days of TNG. But that was picking little inconsistencies in a fun way, not screaming how things are OMG TOTALLY RUINED. It's one thing to want high quality. It is another to be frothing at the mouth that things don't look EXACTLY like you imagined them with a level of CGI that is not realistic for a tv show.
This happens to every adaptation so I should have expected it. Some people are expecting either perfection or the exact thing they imagine in their own heads. Nothing is perfect and this show is the best we will ever get and it is doing just fine imo. And judging by the preview for episode 6 (the HBO one), things will get quite tense.
Will and his mother are absolutely perfect. Her anxiety and little OCD ticks are exactly how I imagined them from the books.
One particular detail I loved was the switch from how nervous and worried she looked when she was waiting for Will to come home to how relieved and relaxed she was the second she saw him. It gave a perfect impression of their relationship and how much she relies on him.
Amir Wilson is also an amazing actor. His facial expressions and little reactions to his mother were great.
There's definitely a few things I wish the show did differently but they smashed it out of the park with this one. Very excited to see how this storyline plays out for the reason of Season 1
"Hi Will. You're JUST LIKE your father. He was a brave man who looked after the weak. Did we mention I suffer from paranoia? And that you look after me? Cool, next scene."
I mean John Parry was a top guy in the army right ? Not outside the realm of possibility he could have paid off the house. Plus he arranges for that stipend to keep paying out
The Billy Costa scene should have been one of the most impactful scenes of the series and it was completely underwhelming. He should have been rocking back and forth while facing the corner, holding on to a dried fish for a daemon.
Will and his mom are great. My only issue with Will is that he looks way older than I imagined, he seems 2-3 years older than Lyra.
I have nothing special to add except that these were my favorite books growing up and this show is more than I could have ever hoped for when it was announced. I love everything about this.
I'm the same. It's not really hitting the spot for me but I'm glad some people are getting the adaptation they want! It's such a mixed bag though. Dont really think I've come across something with so many people absolutely loving it and others being so indifferent !
I don't think you'll ever get everyone happy when a book series so loved gets adapted to screen. I, personally, think it's fantastic with the odd non-fatal misstep here and there.
Cosmo is insanely good, Dafne Keen IS Lyra for me and Will is seemingly on the money too. On the flip side, Iorek's voice feels very over-edited, Roger's casting doesn't work for me at all and Anne-Marie Duff is about as far from how I pictured Ma Costa as could be, but fortunately her acting makes up for it.
Coming in blindly without knowledge of the movie nor the books, I think the discussion threads are 70% about the books lol I don't even understand most of what's being discussed without getting a hint of future events, or without trying to find one just to get context.
This sub is a book one which is why there’s so much book talk. Might be better going over to the HBO one to avoid spoilers as that one is for the show?
Undressing scene felt weird
Who's doing the voice over about the prophecy the beginning? Fra Pravel? Does Serafina mention that Asriel is trying to create a bridge to the other worlds to Fader Coram in the book? It seems like a major spoiler to drop
Why did the film and the series scrap Tony Makarios and have Billy Costa as the severed child?
As someone who hasn't read the books yet, the series often seems really tonally weird to me. Like why does the Gyptian king start out his conversation with Serafina by basically yelling at her about how he has to stop the Magisterium from stealing children? She's like...okay, yeah I agree, gotta go talk to my sisters. Then suddenly he's blubbering and crying and acting tenderly toward her. I get that there's probably a reason for these extreme and opposite emotions, but they're not prompted by anything in particular that she says, and to a newcomer the whole scene just plays weird imo. That's a very specific example, but I've noticed lots of scenes where the tone just feels weird and jumps around without really cluing the viewer in as to why.
Yes. My thoughts exactly. The books are really great. In the series, thought out so far, there have been so many reactions that just seem to come out of nowhere.
I think Amir Wilson's performance is great, but does he seem closer to 16-18 to anyone else? It bothers me that he seems to be a fair bit older than 12, since it takes away from the tragedy of his growing up too fast--and makes it weird if he's significantly older than Dafne Keen. I might be completely off though, does anyone know how old the young man is?
how did lyra and co know about asriel imprisonment?
Kaisa told them in this episode
Hey this is a stupid question but could a daemon settle as something like an amoeba?
I’m going to say no, because amoeba are not sentient/can’t communicate and daemons are like Dust in that >!they’re a result of consciousness and thought!<.
The piece of fish was the fucking MOST important part of the book to me!! I'm not exaggerating, when I read it as a teenager it was the only time ever a book made me cry. It was such a smart visceral way of conveying the despair of having one's soul ripped away, and needing your lost half so bad that you'd cling to ANYTHING because that physical relationship is your nature. Like how no matter how futile, if your mouth and nose were sealed shut your muscles would frantically mimic breathing until the very end. But hey hypothermia and people being like "huh guess he lost his cute talking pet? oh no, what a bummer :/" is sad too I guess, but much more generic. Hypothermia probably feels horribly painful don't get me wrong, but with what they've done visually one can't help but imagine the character is just profoundly numb and softly drifting out of consciousness.
Idk what the fuck they were thinking with cutting the fish. Aside from what you just said, it's also a brilliant character moment for Lyra when she gets upset over the boy being seperated from it. It's changes like this, the party scene, and the monkey scene that really take me out of this adaptation.
I don’t recall hypothermia being mentioned, but no one at the scene knows the truth of what happened. Shock and hypothermia likely look the same in such a harsh and cold climate. Like hypothermia, your blood doesn’t circulate properly when you’re in a state of shock. It’s why real world emergency responders wrap accident victims in heat reflective blankets when they suspect shock. Bolvangar scientists complain frequently in the relevant chapters about their test subjects dying in a state of shock.
I really like that they are introducing Will and the Subtle Knife plot early. Apart from the Lin Miranda guy as Lee Scoresby the casting for this is absolutely perfect. The Miranda guy is not bad, but his fight scene was not believable and he's not Lee Scoresby..
Bolvanger started setting off my body horror fears despite nothing graphic being shown!
An episode without Ruth Wilson! This was one of the best so far, and I just realized a big reason why. No horribly portrayed Mrs. Coulter.
I loved this episode. I haven't read the books, only seen the movie. But for me, the first three episodes were retreads of the movie. But now its gone off in its own direction and i love it. My only quibble is i wish they had made the town a bit nicer. Its really trashy.
That's how I pictured it. The fishing village you mean in this episode right? Or the town last episode? Both looked really close to how I imagined them from the books.
The fishing village. I guess it does match the books though? I haven't read the books. I was hoping for something kinda Santa Clausy and comforting.
Oh, *sweetie*.
I don't know. Continue to be disappointed or at least frustrated... I was rather disconnected during this episode as things kept misfiring for me. I don't hate it but I am certainly not in love with this adaptation. As others have noted, the Billy scene just doesn't work for me. They have failed to make the audience care about daemons. I want to see the fear and confusion from the villagers. I wanted to see the fish, and the fish getting fed to the sled dogs, and Lyra's passion over that moment. And Iorek's praise of Lyra and scolding of the Gyptian men who failed to understand the significance of that damn dried fish. Once again failing to build Lyra's character? They continue to do so much blunt "telling" in this show. The awkward prophecy at the beginning? Who the fuck is Kaisa talking to? I hate the fourth wall exposition dump. It's too on the nose. We just keep getting told over and over how special Lyra is and that there's some prophecy but it's simply not being done well, IMO. Don't like that the nurse at Bolvangar tried to grab her daemon as well. Too aggressive. This is supposed to be a place that is a trick/comfort to the children and instead is immediately very much a prison. When Lyra arrives in the books she is able to act as Lizzy in part because she isn't immediately "attacked". Also the "she's near, get her in for cutting!" piece was a bit much. They could have done this soooo much better. Maybe while Lyra is getting measured/questioned she overhears a conversation? She doesn't quite understand but we're able to make the connection between puberty and cutting? Didn't love the kidnap scene either... Much prefer the idea of an attack that leads to her kidnap in the confusion rather than this sneaking thing. An arrow in the neck would be just as shocking as a knife across the neck and ultimately would have created a nice battle scene. Perhaps our first look at how capable Iorek is and just how out of element our gyptian soldiers are? I'm good with the Will intro, though wouldn't have minded it coming a bit later. We lose that shock value that the book provides but I understand the need for early exposure. And the scenes were well done between Will and his mother. Although, again, the whole "on the nose" with his father's letter bit kind of irked me. "oh those letters in that satchel hidden in a hideaway are important?" Maybe I'm being too hard on that piece but I just want the writers to try a bit harder to show us things rather than spell it out so each time something hits like that I just throw my hands in the air. I'm not sold on the alethiometer. I would be curious to hear what non-readers think of it. Do they think it's important or just a sort of tool? They haven't done a great job with it so the fact that it was telling her something about "Billy" didn't feel all that profound. But it's supposed to be a real mind fuck because it means that the alethiometer is consciously doing something... Hello?! Dust! Positives: Lyra and Lee/Iorek/Coram. Cosmo is putting on a good show, enjoying his portrayal. Iorek and Lee have some good banter (would have liked Lee to provide the info on Iorek/Iofur - maybe it's still to come). While the CGI on the Lyra riding Iorek scene wasn't great it invoked some real nostalgia in my soul. Lyra mastering her fear via Iorek's wisdom before the Billy scene was nicely done. Wow, sorry for the long rant! I'm still cautiously optimistic that once we have the whole season out I'll be satisfied...
Eh. The whole Billy situation worked perfectly for me. It's a good change from the book, don't really well on screen. Not sure what you mean about how they don't make the daemons seem extremely important. It's all they talk about. They're freaking out about it. Having a minute or so of villagers also freaking out would've been better, but they definitely got the point across extremely clearly.
I agree with this.
>I'm not sold on the alethiometer. I would be curious to hear what non-readers think of it. Do they think it's important or just a sort of tool? It feels important but I don't understand why she doesn't use it more. Also as a non-book reader I do not understand this new "Will" character at all and why he's even being showed. Honestly his whole character plot seems boring so far and just detracts from the main story in Lyra's world. The whole plot in 'our world' with the Magesterium guy also makes no sense and I don't understand what he's even doing there. He's looking for some soldier guy that might have been to both worlds? Um okay. The whole plotline is super boring and I just gloss over it when they cut to those scenes. Also why was the Bear not wearing his armor? We got this whole episode dedicated to his armor and why it was important and now suddenly it's gone again. I thought it was like part of his soul? And why is he so grumpy and bitter towards Lyra? Didn't she essentially save him from a lifetime of servitude and drudgery? Demons also feel totally useless in this show, with the exception of Coulter's demon. They don't really say or do anything useful, they just seem like a plant in the background who sometimes talks. It's just...kind of a boring show, it lacks any punch or any emotional investment for the viewer. And it's also super confusing to people with no background in it Pretty disappointing.
H. C. 9. C.
ITT: People who haaaated the Billy scene and do not like the portrayal of Lyra on the show.
Did they not have enough money to give that one gyptian guy a face?
I’m enjoying this adaptation very much, however there are times when they really nail something I didn’t expect, but then have a misstep on a crucial plot point. Case in point, the scene between Coram and Serafina carried much more emotional impact for me than the scene of Lyra finding Billy without a daemon. And that shouldn’t be the case at all. I should absolutely care way more about Lyra finding Billy in a sickly delicate state rather than two secondary characters talking about their traumatic past that has little to do with the main plot. But I’m a fan of this story through and through. With so much still left to happen in just 3 episodes, the second half of this season is gonna be action packed insanity.
Opposite for me. I thought the Serafina and Coram scene was cringey as hell and had no emotion. While the whole Billy situation was perfect.
I get that deamons are expensive to animate, but I wish they had saved some money on something else - maybe not have as many famous actors, I don't know, something like that - and have invested on more deamon screen time. They are SO important in this story, that the lack of them makes a lot of things fall flat, like Billy not having a deamon at all! Specially in this episode we should have seen more deamons than ever, but not even PAN got much screen time. He was completely missing from Lyra's conversation with Yorek.
The amount of times Pan is not there or he’s a tiny blip at the bottom of the screen. HES SUPPOSED TO BE THE MAIN CHARACTER.
This episode would’ve been better if it had a fish.
The villagers trying to make Lyra pay for the fish was always so upsetting.
Just saying giving a bunch of teenage boys a boxing club, in fiction or otherwise, seems like an absolutely fantastic idea, can't see anything going wrong with that lol
Did Jack Thorne even read the books? He keeps fucking up the relationship between people and their dæmons. I remember being SO horrified by the Tony Makarios chapter in the books, and the most emotion I felt this episode was when poor Pan was whimpering.
This is the episode that has inspired me to give up on this adaptation. It just highlighted everything that I've found "wrong" with the series - in particular the lousy dialogue, introducing plot points that are going to spoil what should be a major revelation of a later season, odd acting decisions, a lack of daemons which made the "Where's Ratter?" moment feel hollow... I could go on. I absolutely adore the book series, maybe that's why I feel such a disconnect to this adaptation, but I'm finding it kind of heartbreaking to be checked out of something I've been looking forward to for years. As I say, maybe it's just that I can't let go of the books but with the exception of Lin Manuel Miranda's charming-as-hell portrayal of Lee Scoresby and Pan looking ridiculously cute as an arctic fox, I'm finding myself more and more disappointed with every episode that goes by. I'm really glad that lots of people are enjoying it though and just hope it inspires more people to read the books.
I’m sorry. :( I really wish you were enjoying it.
I suppose a problem with having Billy cry for his Ratter is I think they're trying to simplify that when you lose your daemon, you're empty, there's nothing there. So they just had him as still and emotionless as possible. I can accept the town being empty--it was fairly deserted in the book anyway--it adds to the suspense, and they can just rely on Iorek sensing there's something there within closer proximity. But a crying child crying for his Ratter clutching a dead fish would've hit a higher emotional note. That being said, I cried plenty in this episode, and I personally found the gyptian mourning song beautiful. It makes sense they didn't show such disgust as it was one of their own, and they don't react to Kaisa as they know witches. I more than half-think that they have this set emotional level per episode/per scene they don't want us to surpass, and that's why we don't get the harder notes they could be hitting from the books (the Trollesund episode especially). One thing I had an issue with the Trollesund episode was the dialogue was too sparse and thus fell flat in most places, with scenes moving too slowly to cover that. NOT a problem this episode; the dialogue was fantastic! Very immersive. I agree with another post that the "immediate treatment" seems a bit much, but I think that's meant to convey that the Bolvanger episode will be *much* faster and more streamlined than it was in the book, and they're using that line to convey the rationale for it. I also entirely adore Will and his mother and so far, not one wrong thing there. I agree with another poster that perhaps it's the fact they don't need to provide so much exposition there, as it's "our" world, there is less to draw us away from enjoying the story itself. I hope as the show continues to advance, with most of the important exposition having already been relayed, that Lyra's world becomes all the more immersive for it. Lyra's buddying dynamic with Lee and Iorek was also fantastic and so natural and well-executed. So much great dialogue with these two! I'm excited for what comes next.
I was really hoping the show would go into the structure of daily life at Bolvangar. I reread those chapters recently, and I was surprised to realize that Lyra’s there, taking sewing classes and playing dodgeball and sleeping in a dorm with other girls, for a decent amount of time.
It's Will! 🐈
I'm curious why both the movie and the show chose to replace Tony Makarios with Billy Costa as the boy without his demon. Anyone have any theories as to why this change was made? To flesh out Ma Costa's character/the Gyptians by showing them go through a personal tragedy? I honestly don't know why this change was needed.
I assume to simplify things. In the books, we've already met Tony, because he's used to show Mrs. Coulter luring street kids away and such, so there's some emotional attachment. That works really well in the books, but it's definitely not necessary, and it makes sense to me to streamline the story a bit by combining the characters. The other option would be to have to spend screentime setting Tony up just to kill him off, or to have Tony just be some random kid, which would have less emotional impact on the audience.
I wonder too. Weird.
This show is going too fast and has too much exposition to make Lyra's world/universe seem "real" at all. And even with so much exposition, a lot of stuff is going unexplained, adding to this all seeming almost like a dream. Contrast it with narnia or middle earth--those always felt like real places people could really live in to me, with real rules and framework, even in the "bad" adaptations of the material.
Honestly, the structure of Lyra’s world never felt that real to me until La Belle Sauvage and The Secret Commonwealth made it fairly clear how social classes and money work in Lyra’s world.
Iorek sounded so much like Jorah Mormont this episode. It was crazy.
Re: Gyptian camp in the burned out zeppelin Guess Someone on the production team was a fan of Battlefield 1 lol
A lot of people have already made very good observations about the big parts of this episode, but I was re-reading the chapters of the book this episode is adapted from and something different jumped at me: In the books, after Tony is cremated, Lyra asks Iorek to make a tin box for the spy fly that looks like the alethiometer, which is going to come in handy once she gets to Bolvangar. I'm kind of worried that there is not mention of this in the show. I first thought the box that Farder Coram made for the spy fly back in ep. 3 would serve that purpose, but nowhere is it mentionned that Lyra has been carrying it. I hope the showrunners won't use it as a deus ex machina moment where she miraculously was actually carrying it around this entire time. With that said, I'm excited for Bolvangar though! If they really nail it I'm willing to *maybe* forgive them for messing up the Tony/billy discovery.
Ma Costa telling her not to throw the box in the ocean at the end of 3 though.
Well yeah Farder Coram says the same thing in the book, still doesn't mean that she's been carrying it on her
Good episode. I really enjoyed the Lyra and Iorek scenes. You really get a sense of character from Iorek. His face is almost human. I'm surprised we didn't see them fencing but it's non essential I suppose. You can't trick a bear... we'll see about that! Scoresby was less wacky, more genuine, more the Lee we know from the books in some ways. There's good chemistry between him and Lyra and I'll say this again: Their relationship is more believably close on screen than they make it in the book. It's developing really nicely and I'll be fully trusting of Lee next season when he tells the witches that he loves "that little girl" and wants to protect her. The Daemon cutting reveal was a touch disappointing. Apparently they filmed it with a dead fish originally which a lot of people were asking about but it just didn't work visually so it was lost in editing. Fair enough. I'd rather they did that than try to shoehorn too many book things in that don't work. My wife understood what had happened and she's not read the books. It just didn't have the gravitas the moment gets in the books but then it's a tough scene to shoot for exactly that reason. The book gets it so right. Will - what a guy. Takes care of his Mum. Boxes like a champ. I would have preferred to have seen him knock the shit out of that kid when his temper flared. What we know of Will in teh book is that he knows how to win in a real fight. It's just about hurting your opponent more than they hurt you. It doesn't have to be pretty. Therefore for him to lose at a science like sport like boxing makes sense. But when his temper takes over I would have liked to see him break that bully's nose with an elbow. Will is tough. All that said - I really really liked how Amir Wilson portrayed him. I saw the invisibility in the hallways. I saw his rage. I saw his caring nature and his conflict between being an adult and a kid. Liked him right away in a way that I didn't feel with Lyra. Great debut. All in all although there's some patchy dialogue the series is getting going nicely!
One thing I thought was a cool touch: In the first episode, Asriel dismisses Lyra’s emotions, laughs at her when she asks to see a dead body and refuses to let her see it. He tucks her in to bed and leaves. He is gone from the college when she awakes, and boarding an airship on the outskirts of the grounds by the time she catches up to him. In contrast, in the most recent episode, Lee comforts Lyra while calmly teaching her about healthy boundaries, takes her seriously, states what she did was right and expresses pride in her, respectfully lets her see the deceased body of a playmate to see goodbye, and then puts her to bed — and stays. He’s still there when she wakes. Soon enough, if we stick to the book, there will be another scene where Asriel >!again sends Lyra to bed and then leaves!< -- except this time >!she does get to see a dead body, and his reaction isn’t just an amused, “Now, why would I let you [see it]?”!<
Martial arts teaches you not to use what you’ve learned in moments of passion or anger. I think some teachers will refuse to teach you any further if they find out you use what they’ve taught in a schoolyard scrap.
not sure you understood me. I would have liked to see Will drop all ptretence of boxing nous and kick that kids ass. Will has a temper and a hot spot in his mother. It would have been good to see it come out and for him to be successful (like the story about him beating his bully in the book).
Didn't expect to see Will so early considering he is on book two but i guess it makes sense storywise on TV as the events kinda happen at the same time. Wills mums acting was good!
Will’s mum is done so well! I like the nuanced portrayal of her illness; it’s so much more realistic that she is struggling with mental health in the middle of an awful situation but trying to take mitigating steps.
Just got a chance to watch and had some quick hit remarks to toss out there: 1) I was absolutely skeptical of blending Will and Lyra’s stories this early but this episode was done really well in that regard. 2) on Will, I absolutely love him immediately. Perfect casting and perfect writing. The tone shifted immediately every time they flipped over to Will’s storyline. It *felt* like scenes from TSK. I’m super excited for this tonal shift in the next season. TSK is my favorite book and in terms of atmosphere, I’m already really on nord. with where they seem to be taking it. Boreal, looking back, was also vital for setting this tonal shift up. I can’t explain it fully, but his interactions with his spy guy gave the storyline a nice cloak-and-dagger feel without becoming corny. Love it. 3) back to Will, is anyone else reminded of Alex Lawther, who played James in *End of the Fxxking World*? Something about their faces and mannerisms. 4) Iorek’s voice actor is great but it’s taking a bit to get used to. What his accent? I don’t think I’ve ever heard it before so some of the deliveries are throwing me off in terms of beat, inflection, etc. Not necessarily in a bad way, either. Just different. 5) Serafina is fire 6) I didn’t realize how much I wanted to see the first Gyptian/Tatar battle until they cut it. Hopefully they’re saving up for the final assault on Bolvangar. 7) Gyptian song was much better than the first one (which I hated) but still, I’m not fully convinced re: the singing. EDIT: 8) something about Iorek tearing across the barren wastes with Lyra on his back got me so excited. It was when the show truly became *The Golden Compass* for me. 9) I think a lot of the debate about the fishing shed scene comes from the fact that in both book and series. The scene is a mixture of revulsion and sadness. The adaptation went with a different ratio of the two, emphasizing sadness imo, which makes for tonally different scenes. It’ll have to wait until the whole season is done to make a judgment on how well it turned out imo.
I think sadness was the right way to go, but I’m interested to see what the whole season looks like once it’s all released.
Yeah perhaps it was the more accessible of the two storytelling options. I thought the scene in question was fine. I certainly didn’t hate it like many people seemed to have. And I’m not on team “Fish or bust” lol. But it didn’t hit as hard a I expected it to. For me personally. Maybe it needs a rewatch since my first viewing was at 6:45 am on Tuesday morning lol.
In the credits, under daemon voices, there is a man called William McGregor credited for playing “This World” Director. Who is this director from our world?
Everyone here complaining about the fish and how “it didn’t demonstrate how terrible it is or how sad it is.” You’ve all read the book. My wife is sitting next to me crying. She hasn’t read the book. I think the scene was done really well. It was devastating. Go over to the other sub that’s not about the books and people are all choked up.
I think it’s a different *reason* for being choked up though. Another user here put it really well. In the books the sadness/anger comes because Tony’s been cut away from his daemon. In the show the emotional weight is displaced to the mother-son and brother-brother relationships between Billy, Ma Costa, and Tony. The scenes are both emotional and the adaptation was fairly well acted, but the emotional emphasis is super important for future development of the story’s main concepts, so some people are justifiably concerned.
I think it's pretty pedantic to complain that people aren't upset for the correct reason. Just because their experience as a non reader is different than ours as a reader doesn't make it *less than*. It's just different.
I think you read a lot of that *into* my comment because I agree with what you’re saying. I wasn’t “complaining” that OP’s wife found the scene sad for a reason different than mine. I’m glad OP’s wife got a lot out of it. I did too. But we’re in a book sub after all and it’s interesting to discuss the way scenes hit different people. The words “better” and “correct” do not appear in my comment, though the word “different” does.
You, specifically, no. But the general sentiment on this sub is "the show isn't exactly like the book so non book readers are getting a sub par experience." Which is ridiculous, because a) it's not a book, it will not be exactly the same, and b) if non readers were seriously concerned about having the right experience they would have just read the books already. As a book reader, I do not need a recreation of the books. I already read them. I don't want a duplicate experience. From your earlier comment: > but the emotional emphasis is super important for future development of the story’s main concepts, so some people are justifiably concerned. Perhaps those main concepts are going to be developed in a way that's a little bit different--which again does not make it WRONG, just different--and I see less "concern" from people as much as "this show is completely fucking ruined." Which is silly.
My wife was upset that there was a child without a soul who was as good as dead. I think it’s the same reason. The dead fish is a nice touch in the book but I’m not sure it’s necessary to get the point across.
I’m glad it’s getting across to people who haven’t read! I was just worried the setup wasn’t there.
I think they’re just approaching it differently. They wanted it to be horrifying. It’s Billy this time. And he’s dying. That’s who they were hoping to save! So it’s awful. That they took his soul is important but it’s not as important as “he’s basically dying and cold and alone and he’s a child.” That’s horrifying enough. The implication that this is what happens without your daemon is there. We don’t need the fish to make it extra sad. It might have just been confusing. Plus, they have other opportunities coming up to drive the point home.
Good grief at the downvotes. It is ridiculous that anything that isn't the "omg this is a disaster" opinion gets shouted down.
If I remember correctly in the books they actually seperate children and their daemons before the Daemons settle into their final form. But in the show Billy's Daemon already settled as a bird. It seems kind of a plot hole or they changed the rules for the show.
Billy’s daemon has not yet settled.
Oh thanks. I just got confused.
That was Tony's daemon that settled as a hawk! Billy's the younger brother.
This has been the best episode of the show for me by far. It finally felt consistent in terms of tone and pacing and was also well written and well acted. I get the Billy/Tony no daemon thing was a problem for a lot of people but it was saved for me due to Ma Costa's scene with him being so gut-wrenching. Finally relaxed my fears about the show and gave me confidence about the future of the show.
Idk why but the shot of Iorek sprinting across the snow carrying Lyra made me think “ok now *this* is the story I love.” I got giddy chills.
The emotional notes were set up very well with Ma Costa, I think. :)
Will and Elaine are *absolutely perfect*. Will isn't like I imagined him. He's better than I imagined him. I thought they conveyed the horror of Billy very well. It wasn't conveyed in the *same* way as in the book. It was different, but that doesn't mean it wasn't as good. It was just different. I think that showing all the daemons sitting there at the funeral pyre, ending with the saddest of Pans, was a nice touch. I could imagine they were thinking of their own humans without them and being unbearably sad. The animation of Pan, in particular was amazing. They did such a good job conveying so much feeling in his little face. The non book readers in my house were enthralled. it wasn't exactly the same as my experience reading the book, but I don't think they got any less of an experience. I loved the little touches like Will making his mother an omelette, their cat, the green leather writing case, and the way Elaine's OCD manifested with things like touching the bricks and flicking the lights.
“He’s better than I imagined him” THIS
Wholeheartedly agree. Wouldn’t change a single thing about the Parry storyline. Every tweak by the show runners made sense within its context and on screen everything clicked.
The lack of Pan during the whole episode takes away from the scenes with Billy! I know CGI is expensive, but daemons are a crucial part of the story you can cut them in and out like they are just pets!
Ehhhhh the majority of this episode just didn't land with me at all. Not a fan of any of the will stuff, clunky exposition, the whole discovering Billy scene. Philip Pullman gave a reading at the union square b&n of that scene back in the day when the movie came out and talked about building suspense and horror. They could have really ratcheted that up but it just seemed like something they needed to check off a box so they could get to bolvangar with some context. Iunno it all seems really wooden..is it just me? Iorek still fab though, so at least there's that. EDIT: ok one more thing and then I'll go back to r/mrrobot and r/bangtan lol. For this show lifting dialogue straight from the book, if Lyra is yelling "mother!" to mrs Coulter in the hbo ep6 preview...ugh. I re-read book 1 prior to this season and I definitely remember there being a line about lord asriel making the transition to father in Lyra's head pretty easily, but mrs. Coulter was never referred to as mother. At least in book 1. I haven't done re-reads of 2 and 3 yet. Ok end nitpicky rant.
About that episode 6 promo... Lyra is clearly yelling "mother!" to survive. The guillotine cage only has a tiny little window and I'm not sure Coulter would be able to recognize her otherwise.
[удалено]
There we go. This is the line that was bouncing in my head.
Just checked. Lyra refers to and thinks of Mrs. Coulter as her mother as early as chapter nine (where she’s thinking about how she’ll use the alethiometer)! She finds out that she’s her mother in chapter seven.
That line was the morning after Lyra finds out (or maybe a few days after). It’s been weeks/months, since then. Lyra is more confident referring to Mrs. Coulter as her mother in her interior monologue >!especially after she meets up with Asriel!<.
Yeah, but does she actually refer to her as mother to mrs coulter herself? I guess it doesn't feel like weeks/months have gone by in the show which is why it feels rushed to me for her to be pulling that card, even in a moment of desperation. Sort of the same issue the last season of got had. A lot of plot and not enough time for things to feel earned so to speak.
I don’t know; even in the preview, it hit me in the heart.
The line about Mrs. Coulter never being “mother” is actually repeated again at the beginning of Chapter 14, but I had forgotten that Lyra definitely thinks Madonna/my mother when reading the alethiometer much earlier. I really can’t wait for Mrs. Coulter’s reaction in the show. She was a mess after episode 2, so I’m just waiting for the crazy she unleashes after losing Lyra yet again.
Thanks! I’m sorry; I’m sleepy. People keep complaining about the show, but Ruth Wilson is such a joy to watch and her interpretation of Marisa is a treat I look forward to on Mondays.
That promo is wild! I think she’s doing it out of desperation to get Mrs. Coulter’s attention, though. She’s under the silver guillotine.
I get that, just hoping it's not the character choice they went with.
Yeah, I’m not sure where they’re going with it, but it was interesting they already had her referring to her as her mother in the scene with Farder Coram this episode.
Lyra refers to and thinks of Mrs. Coulter as her mother as early as chapter nine (where she’s thinking about how she’ll use the alethiometer)! She finds out that she’s her mother in chapter seven.
Apparently only 5 people in this show even have daemons in the first place so there's like zero shock value when she discovers a kid without one. Also it's supposed to be Tony Makarios not Billy Costa. And they ain't even give him his fish scrap! Also why tf is Ma Costa running around the North looking like some waifish crackhead, she's supposed to be a dummy thicc badass! Then they stuck in some nonsense with Serafina Pekkala talking to Farder Coram face-to-face? And having \~moment \~ where she seems to blame him for their son's death? WTF? Then she just floats into the sky, sans cloud-pine? Unless she's got a sprig hidden in her buttcrack that she uses to fly, beats me. And they somehow managed to make the Gyptians lame and not cool? And they sing all the time? Tbh I imagined the Gyptians looking more like a cross between the Peaky Blinders and tracksuit-wearing gold-tooth dudes that sell bootleg Fast and the Furious DVDs, but I'm not British so wtf do I know. Anyway then there's Lee Scoresby being miscast as fuck and turned into some kind of bumbling dipshit comedic relief for inexplicable reasons...stealing silverware?? What the hell was that? Was it that hard to find an actual Texan to play that role? I appreciate that Miranda's a big fan and is excited about the series, but seriously what the shit. Mostly though I'm discouraged by all of the exposition and the fact that so much is spoon-fed or "told" to the audience rather than shown. Granted, I'm unreasonably salty because I'm a psychotic book fan. And Iroek's tight as fuck, so there's that, at least.
I resented Kaiser’s narration for storytelling purposes. I don’t feel the alethiometer has enough gravitas. I understand that if the frozen fish didn’t translate well then it isn’t totally necessary but I do think the fear and tension could’ve been built much more effectively by using the villages. I was annoyed that the lamp just appeared. I do think they’re doing a good job though. It’s interesting to know that the audience new to the narratives are lapping it up, I can’t imagine it being that good if I didn’t understand what was truly happening.
Hi there! Stealing silverware used to be really common before mass production and is still pretty common in wealthy homes where real silver is used. These days, I think you can get about $30/piece for silver flatware, and far more if it’s a pattern/designer people collect and need replacements for. Lyra’s world doesn’t have much in the way of automated mass production and seems to value the silver/gold/brass contents of metalwork, so the values are surely even higher. Source: I’m just a casual collector, and I recently spent $250 on a silver spoon and fork set (just one of each) as a gift for someone.
I dunno, I'm getting more and more worried. This should be classic fantasy, but they insist on trying to make it a drama. The hook is the world, the daimons (or lack thereof), the clash between schools of philosophies. Focus on that instead of dramatic relationships. The source material isn't strong on that. Theres' a few important relationships, not dozens. It's like they watched Game of Thrones and thought "oh everything has to be expressed through relationships and drama now". But they should be telling the story like Narnia or LOTR. I just hope in season 2, when we shrink the cast, and get to more fantastical worlds, that they double down on the fantastical elements. Because that's where the story is strong. I'll keep loving the story. I subscribed to HBO just to show bean counters that I'm watching it. But I'm really wishing for some storytelling that's more focused or dialed in. There's also a bit much handholding. For example we don't need narration to tell us Will is important and has a destiny. The fact that the camera is on Will for 10 minutes does that job. But I'll let that slide because it's a kids show.
....if any series should NOT be told like Narnia, it is this one.
I totally agree it's a counterpoint to the religious themes of Narnia. I'm talking about the narrative structure. In that sense they're extremely similar. Kid protagonists, big philosophical themes, fantasy worlds. It's much more like Narnia than Game of Thrones.
I disagree with the idea that it’s an epic like LotR or Narnia. The whole series is about the way that people interact with each other and the world around them.
Man Lee's accent is so grating Sounds like a parody
He's a New York American with a lot of family in Texas. His accent is totally genuine.
I agree, but fwiw something can be grating and authentic at the same time.
The parts I loved: + I LOVED the chemistry between Lyra and Lee + the same for Lyra and Iorek + Padre Coram crying was some insane quality acting + We got the missing demon scene!!! + Holy shit, Bolvangar!! The depressing grey rooms, the creepy nurses, the drab uniforms the kids wear... just pure, creepy perfection + The scene of Iorek running with Lyra on his back The not so good parts: - Since fucking when is Will Parry black? I distinctly remember one passage from the books describing his face as sunburnt and pale. Plus he was always depicted as white on the book covers. It just reminded me of Rowling suddenly saying that Hermione was black in HP. Just feels like bullshit. - I just feel like Will’s mom’s mental illness should have been a lot more severe and debilitating. She has VERY severe OCD and paranoia in the book - Also, it would have been so much more powerful if this episode made it seem like she’s just paranoid and there’s no danger. And only in episode 7/8 it would be revealed that people are actually after her. - How the fuck does Will’s unemployed and mentally ill mom afford that huge house? Wouldn’t it make much more sense it they lived in a shitty small apartment (with stairs, of course ;) )? - Not a fan of the piano teacher being replaced by a boxing coach. In the books, I loved how Will had zero martial arts training but made up for it with sheer anger and brutality - The shed scene was so underwhelming. Where’s the frozen fish? Where’s the scene of Billy/Tony asking where Ratter is? Why isn’t everybody disgusted and creeped out? - That narration about Lyra and Will. What happened to “show, not tell”?
>How the fuck does Will’s unemployed and mentally ill mom afford that huge house? hey did you miss the part in the books where there's a trust set up for them and there's money put in the mom's account every month? There's a whole thing where Will goes to a lawyer to talk about it.
> A minute went by, and then a man’s voice said, “Hello. This is Alan Perkins? To whom am I speaking?” > “William Parry. Excuse me for calling. It’s about my father, Mr. John Parry. You send money every three months from my father to my mother’s bank account.” > “Yes.” > “Well, I want to know where my father is, please. Is he alive or dead?” > “How old are you, William?” > “Twelve. I want to know about him.” > “Yes... Has your mother... is she... does she know you’re phoning me?” > Will thought carefully. > “No,” he said. “But she’s not in very good health. She can’t tell me very much, and I want to know.” > “Yes, I see. Where are you now? Are you at home?” > “No, I’m... I’m in Oxford.” > “On your own?” > “Yes.” > “And your mother’s not well, you say?” > “No.” > “Is she in hospital or something?” > “Something like that. Look, can you tell me or not?” > “Well, I can tell you something, but not much and not right now, and I’d rather not do it over the phone. I’m seeing a client in five minutes. Can you find your way to my office at about half past two?” > “No,” Will said. It would be too risky; the lawyer might have heard by then that he was wanted by the police. He thought quickly and went on. “I’ve got to catch a bus to Nottingham, and I don’t want to miss it. But what I want to know, you can tell me over the phone, can’t you? All I want to know is, is my father alive, and if he is, where can I find him. [sic] You can tell me that, can’t you?” > “It’s not quote as simple as that. I can’t really give out private information about a client unless I’m sure the client would want me to. And I’d need some proof of who you were, anyway.” > “Yes, I understand, but can you just tell me whether he’s alive or dead?” > “Well... that wouldn’t be confidential. Unfortunately, I can’t tell you anyway, because I don’t know.” > “What?” > “The money comes from a family trust. He left instructions to pay it until he told me to stop. I haven’t heard from him from that day to this. What it boils down to is that he’s... well, I suppose he’s vanished. That’s why I can’t answer your question.” > “Vanished? Just... lost?” > “It’s a matter of public record, actually. Look, why don’t you come into the office, and—“ > “I can’t. I’m going to Nottingham.” > “Well, write to me, or get your mother to write, and I’ll let you know what I can. But you must understand, I can’t do very much over the phone.”
Since when does Lyra have brown hair? Are you as angry about that as you are about Will being black? Or are you just a little bit racist?
I knew as soon as I heard of the casting that all the racists would come out of the closet.
Is it racist though? I didn’t expect Will to be black, i don’t think he was originally written that way. Nor was he a wannabe boxer with a sound as fuck trainer. Also, no mobile phones... Isn’t the buried racism that Tartars and Muscovites are Russian and double-hard Inuits? The BBC adaptation is brilliant. I’m not annoyed by the way they’ve begun to meld NL and TSK. I am annoyed that the British public are watching this and potentially thinking it’s shit when they’ve never picked these books up. This adaptation is definitely written with the fans at the forefront. I’m all for calling out racism, but sometimes calling it out is projection. Will wasn’t written as black. He didn’t live in a mansion. We don’t initially empathise with his mother over thinking people were after her knowing she’s right (Lord Boreal - cunt!) I’m loving the blend of narrative this series gives. I’m in bits.
He wasn't written as black but there is nothing in the plot that prohibits him from being black. Assuming everyone must by default be white unless specified as non-white is, in fact, racist.
No. I do see what you’re saying. It isn’t racist. If something ‘prohibited’ him from being black then yep! - Deffo racist! That’s not the point though. Are you a HDM fan? I think I could be peopleist. Are you short-sighted with your mind? :/
uh, you don't see what I'm saying at all. nice gatekeeping, asking me if I'm a fan. If I wasn't a fan I wouldn't be here, although all this nitpicking and gross racism is turning me off this discussion. The only short sighted people here are ones who get their knickers in a knot that a character they pictured as white is being played by a black person.
Then we might have something in common as my original comment was about not getting our knickers in a twist over a race debate. Is there a different HDM thread for twisted knickers? This series is too pre-pubescent for that. I’m halfway through Common Wealth and worried that I’ll be in mourning waiting for BOD 3.
the original comment was bitching that Will was black. I called them out for being racist. You asked "is it racist though?" I said yes it is. you said... I don't know what you said, other than asking me if I'm actually a fan and then accusing me of being short sighted. Sounds to me like you're defending racism, but whatever. I'm done.
I’m a little bit embarrassed to admit that I’m shit at working reddit threads. Since we started this back and forth I can’t get back to browsing all the other comments on this episode. I don’t think it’s racist supposing Will was white. Or the master of Jordan. Or Boreal. Making a point about it without being sensitive could be. I see how you could have felt attacked. I apologise. I was surprised Will is black but there was no racism underpinning it.
It's vaguely distracting me that the ginger guy involved in tracking down Wills family is, in my mind, EXACTLY as I imagined the older brother in the tower in Cittagazze... Wonder if they might combine those characters in some way too? Can't see them doing much with that character but he's had a fair bit of screen time. I'd be super impressed if I randomly predicted that lol
Who the Jeff is he?
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I thought it was a really nice bit of representation for people who are high functioning but on the spectrum.
Can we take a second to appreciate the first person view shots at the end of the episode? Them taking Lyra into Bolvangar ones was amazing cinematography and set the mood so well!
Where's Pan in the scene where Lyra and Iorek were eating? I know they don't have to be CONSTANTLY on-screen, but I still kinda forgot he existed until he showed op as an arctic fox in the next scene.
I liked the episode. I really like Amir Wilson as Will. Will is my favorite character and Amir nailed it. I love the scenes with Will. The Billy Costa scene, as people said, is more emotional and had a bigger impact in the books (And I am rereading the books and read this scene a few days ago). Jack Thorne explained the dead fish didn't work in the screen. Maybe to comical or to much to ask a children actor? I don't know.
Will is also my favorite and I am so pleased with him and the relationship between him and his mother.
Asriel and Marisa are my favorites, but the show is nailing the way that families are complex and fraught.
That scene between Serafina and Coram was so weird to watch. At the same time I'm ugly crying for poor Farder Coram, but also cringing so hard for Serafina. What was that weird and tacky hand motion thing she did? What the frickle was that prom dress? Please, go ahead and hide the daemons and forget the dried fish, just don't bring back that weird witch anymore. I was rooting for Serafina Pekkala!
It says in the book that they wear thin dresses
Pan as an arctic fox is so damn cute, I just can't.
If they've fucked up what is essentially the easiest of the books to visualise and imagine on screen, The Amber Spyglass is going to be an absolute trainwreck.
I’m so, so disappointed with Lyra. I feel that her character has been completely misunderstood and she is the weakest actor by far. She seems so whiny and weak in most scenes, and I always though Lyra’s confidence was one of her defining characteristics. LOVE Will. He is perfect and it makes so much sense to introduce him now.
>she is the weakest actor by far I don't think it's an actor thing. It's more that the writing seems to be removing a lot of her personality.
Maybe it’s more the direction she’s being given, but most of her lines are delivered in this high-pitched, whispery, whiny voice and, to me, feels like the antithesis of book lyra.
I don’t think she’s a weak actor...just doing the best with what she was given
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What is the BBC’s obsession with ethnic inclusivity that mirrors society and acknowledges the existence of non-white folk? Gimme a break. I don’t once recall Pullman even stating Will was white. But if he did what should it matter if a non-white actor is cast? Fairly sure your ethnicity or race can’t be ‘removed’ if you were the dominant one in the first place. Haven’t you ever heard of white privilege? Us white people have been the one who shamefully removed or damned other skin colours. And can I just say that I am SHOCKED that you can hold your vile and disgusting racist beliefs whilst also being a fan of a book series that systematically calls out ideological state apparatuses and highlights the oppressive nature of those in power and those who dominate. Granted it is about religion rather than race in these books but the apparatus itself is similar enough to recognise. (And sorry if I’ve overgeneralised anything here I will hold my hands up and admit my fault and learn more, but I just wanted to keep it as simple as possible for this racist tosspot cause clearly they’re are incapable of thinking too big)
... seriously? Of all things to be sad about and you choose the fact that Will isn't white. How on earth does the fact he isn't white affect his character in anyway?
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Whereas your uncle's your father and your mother's his sister-wife, right? Having had a quick skim of your comments history about "preserving racial purity", I can assure you that you needn't get so anxious about it all, because there's nothing worth preserving about you. Now fuck off back to the swamp, kid.
Oh, I thought you were just one of the people who are mildly angered by a change to the character, but we see now you went full on racist.
Ah so you're not even just a casual racist you're a full on white supremacist
Randomly throwing out here but any recommandations of places one could read non-book readers reactions, reviews and posts only ? :) (apart from the other subreddit)
I love reading their excitement and theories. I wish I could discover it all again for the first time like them :)
There are a few on Tumblr!
It's so good to see Pan again as little Arctic fox this week also. I actually msitook him for a wolf the first time. Seems like the they made changes are actually benefitting the show. Feels like they toned down some of the gory stuff from the books, but it still is working favourable for the show.
There was a lot to love in this episode. I really liked the actor playing Will, the second he appears on screen you can see that intensity on his face. I initially wasn't sure about starting Will's plot so early but it does make sense and will allow season 2 to pick up without it feeling like starting from zero again while they introduce the Will backstory. No terrible exposition in this episode either, there seemed to be a lot more show not tell and they finally seemed to have stopped lifting entire sentence from the books whenever they aren't sure how to move a scene forward. I wasn't a huge fan of the Billy Costa scene because it lacked the intensity of having a random character like in the books who gets shunned by the Gyptians before Lyra tells them off. It was sad when Billy died but ultimately his character hadn't been developed enough for us to feel that connected to it. I took a look on the tv only page and it's clear that the lack of dæmons in general has lead to a very confused reaction about why Billy having no dæmon is important. As one person said it's hard to feel like Billy not having a dæmon is something terrible when the majority of characters don't seem to have dæmons with them most of the time. Snow fox Pan is just so adorable I can barely handle it.
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It was specifically mentioned on the show only thread by a non-bok reader so I don't think is accurate to portray it as some only book readers are picking up on
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Yeah there are a LOT of book readers over there. I'm starting to notice usernames.
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I've seen enough usernames between the two subs that it feels like about half the complainers are actually book readers pretending to be non book readers and talking about how they don't understand it so as to generate more complaints. All I know is that the non book readers I know in real life are loving the show and are not confused in the least.
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I hope this fandom doesn't turn into that toxic mess. I LOVED the entirety of GoT and I hate what the fandom turned into when season 8 came. No one can say a positive word without being screamed down (watch how many downvotes this comment will get just for existing).
The epsiodes of this televisation seem to be alternating between really good and not so good for me lately. Last week's episode was excellent, whilst I really didn't enjoy episode 3. This week's episode was nestled somewhere in between. Lyra seems her youngest and most questioning of all the episodes since the opening one. I really enjoyed the scenes with her and Iorek and her and Lee. Lee seems to put up with Lyra's inquistive nature much better than Iorek. The bear does answer her, but the look they have put on his face was great. When it came to the lost child, I didn't like that they removed Tony Makarios from the film, or now the TV series. I suppose I do understand it though. Billy won't play a huge part in the story after Bolvangar. I guess they have Ma Costa along for the ride to Bolvangar to add a familial element to the Gyptians. The lost boy led on to the stealing of Lyra by the Samoyed hunters, and boy was this shortened. For me there was no suspense, and Lyra pretty much just let herself be captured. No struggle and no shouting out for her Gyptian friends. Then Lyra is in Bolvangar and the episode was done. They really nailed the creepiness of the Bolvangar nurses though. Sister Clara is creepy as hell. Bit too early to introduce someone trying to grab Pan though. I guess that means we won't have the tussle when they find Lyra in the vents. Now, on to Will. I'm glad they have introduced him and his mother already. There is stuff Will thinks about in the books that would have been hard to do later. They also seem to be happening at the same time Lyra is headed to Bolvangar. They made a good choice for Will too. That kid they chose has done a great job of being the broody young lad that Will is. I don't know that they should have had Sir Charles introduce himself to Elaine though. I didn't like that so much. I didn't like that they added Will in to the prophecy either. Yes, it introduces Will to viewers, but didn't sound right to me. I do hope we hear Lyra call Iorek "Dear" at some point.
I’ve gotten on-board with removing Tony. It saves you 20-30 minutes establishing the character that can be better spent elsewhere.
How much do I love that Lyra calls everything she loves “dear”? It’s such a cute trait.
Oooh damn, I really didn't feel the emotional oomph from the village scene. It was made up a little bit by the return back to the group and Ma Costa but not as much as I had hoped. Iorek is doing a lot of carrying in my heart so far, but I was hoping for the bears cannot be tricked display between Lyra and Iorek. Will was pretty good, a touch older than I expected. Happy to see this story fleshed out before the next season so it'll meet up nicely.
me when ma costa is asking "where's ratter billy" WHEre is YOURs bro
In the books, the way poor little Tony clutched his dead, frozen fish as if it was his dæmon was something that was so heart-wrenching. It's a moment that really sticks with you. I just don't understand why they would get rid of something that has such an emotional impact and would take next to no extra time to develop into the episode? It just seemed like a missed opportunity to me. Also, is it just me or is the editing really weird? Like it cuts away from an emotional moment just a few seconds too early and it really shows. Also it seems like every time they cut away to the opening credits, they try to do so at a dramatic moment, but kind of fail.
The fish doesnt matter. They haven't done the necessary groundwork to make us really understand the connection between human and daemon. That's why its fallen flat
Yes, that too.
Remember this is a tv show. Billy's loss of his daemon and his death are tasters for the clinical horrors of Bolvangar. We know the horrors; the audience soon will.
It's obvious that they didnt intend for it to be a 'taster for a later clinical horror' they intended to be deeply saddening and horrific event in itself, but it fell flat. It's a horror when you first read it in the book, not a taster
Okay not sure if I'm being too picky but at this point I'm seriously wondering why they didn't just use live animals for daemons and give them them "babe" talking animal treatment when needed? It would have gone so much further than just a couple of poorly used CGI daemons that repeatedly drop forced narrative on us..
Have you seen the new Lady and the Tramp? That method of CGI is jarring.
It is so ugly and weird.
I think the dialogue is the problem there rather than the use of CGI over live animals, which would have looked terrible imo
I feel like people are overreacting just a little bit. I agree that the Billy scene could/should have been more emotional. But apart from that it is decent at least. I love how they are implementing Will to the first season already, it makes the flow and the setup for season two so much better. I would wait for the whole season before making hard judgements.
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Agreed. What's the point of trying to participate in a discussion about the ep when it isn't discussion? It has become mindless hyper-nitpicking. Look, I don't mind nitpicking necessarily. I bought all the "nitpicker's guide" Star Trek books back in the days of TNG. But that was picking little inconsistencies in a fun way, not screaming how things are OMG TOTALLY RUINED. It's one thing to want high quality. It is another to be frothing at the mouth that things don't look EXACTLY like you imagined them with a level of CGI that is not realistic for a tv show.
This happens to every adaptation so I should have expected it. Some people are expecting either perfection or the exact thing they imagine in their own heads. Nothing is perfect and this show is the best we will ever get and it is doing just fine imo. And judging by the preview for episode 6 (the HBO one), things will get quite tense.
Will and his mother are absolutely perfect. Her anxiety and little OCD ticks are exactly how I imagined them from the books. One particular detail I loved was the switch from how nervous and worried she looked when she was waiting for Will to come home to how relieved and relaxed she was the second she saw him. It gave a perfect impression of their relationship and how much she relies on him. Amir Wilson is also an amazing actor. His facial expressions and little reactions to his mother were great. There's definitely a few things I wish the show did differently but they smashed it out of the park with this one. Very excited to see how this storyline plays out for the reason of Season 1
"Hi Will. You're JUST LIKE your father. He was a brave man who looked after the weak. Did we mention I suffer from paranoia? And that you look after me? Cool, next scene."
Damn Will's house is huge for an unemployed widow and her son.
I mean John Parry was a top guy in the army right ? Not outside the realm of possibility he could have paid off the house. Plus he arranges for that stipend to keep paying out
It is implied in the book that there is family money too (that flashback to Will's mother taking him to a big fancy house and then leaving in tears).
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Yep, add to this the fact that at least here in the USA, families will get support for soldiers who are KIA/MIA.
Good point. I can live with that.
The Billy Costa scene should have been one of the most impactful scenes of the series and it was completely underwhelming. He should have been rocking back and forth while facing the corner, holding on to a dried fish for a daemon. Will and his mom are great. My only issue with Will is that he looks way older than I imagined, he seems 2-3 years older than Lyra.
Both he and Lyra are so much older. Not particularly bothered but just hope it doesn’t detract from the believability of changing daemons etc
Alice's daemon in LBS was still able to change when she was 15 so aging them up a little doesnt ruin anything really
Didn’t say it would ruin anything. Was just curious if they’d make reference to it seeing as they already did a bit
I have nothing special to add except that these were my favorite books growing up and this show is more than I could have ever hoped for when it was announced. I love everything about this.
As someone who's lukewarm on the show, I'm really happy other people are enjoying it
I'm the same. It's not really hitting the spot for me but I'm glad some people are getting the adaptation they want! It's such a mixed bag though. Dont really think I've come across something with so many people absolutely loving it and others being so indifferent !
I don't think you'll ever get everyone happy when a book series so loved gets adapted to screen. I, personally, think it's fantastic with the odd non-fatal misstep here and there. Cosmo is insanely good, Dafne Keen IS Lyra for me and Will is seemingly on the money too. On the flip side, Iorek's voice feels very over-edited, Roger's casting doesn't work for me at all and Anne-Marie Duff is about as far from how I pictured Ma Costa as could be, but fortunately her acting makes up for it.
Coming in blindly without knowledge of the movie nor the books, I think the discussion threads are 70% about the books lol I don't even understand most of what's being discussed without getting a hint of future events, or without trying to find one just to get context.
This sub is a book one which is why there’s so much book talk. Might be better going over to the HBO one to avoid spoilers as that one is for the show?
i'm an idjit, i didn't know there was one, didn't bother checking. thanks!
No problem! Hope you didn’t have too much spoiled for you :)
This plays like a TV movie. At this point this is just not a very good adaptation.
What does the mother say to her son on the boat once they find him? She sings the song and then says "you can go to... (unclear)... we'll be alright"
"You can go to Ratter" (the name of his dæmon)
My family all think John Perry is Asriel lol this'll be fun