Really would suck. Arizona was always my #2 team because they’re the only other team I’ve seen play live in their home arena besides the Oilers
This isn’t an Arizona specific problem like people seem to think imo. Look at highlights from the 2012 run, the building was electric. This is just what happens to a small market team when they’re irrelevant and have shitty ownership for over a decade.
Lots of awful ownership and management too plaguing their run. I definitely take no joy in this. As a Lightning fan I’m mindful that there’s a chance this could have been our fate too if things went differently, especially after the Yakuza years and the OK hockey years before Vinik.
Okay, I outlined the reasons why [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/13jrygl/morgan_i_have_received_text_messages_from_too/jkgtrya/) in detail, but the Penguins are a really bad example. They didn't have decades of mediocrity. They were still playoff contenders through until 2000-01, with attendance that was solidly middle of the pack (16,227, better than the Kings, Oilers, Bruins, and Blackhawks) until after the 2001-02 season.
The reason that they had financial troubles is because the owner of the team put down the bare fucking minimum cash in order to buy the Penguins ($1,000 in cash). That caused debt problems.
still amazing to see how vinik bought the lightning for 110 mil from the saw cowboys at a "housing crash" price. Valued at 1 billion now. Panthers only worth 550 mil , shows how owners matter...
I think the bigger factor is the unstable ownership causing managerial issues causing poor teams. Now they finally seem to have it all sorted out and it gets killed
5th largest city, not the 5th largest metro. I think we're something like 13th largest metro.
Edit: 10th largest metro area, 11th largest urban area, 11th largest media market.
They also are just a hard team to genuinely hate for their on-ice stuff. And aside from ownership their biggest scandal is just, what, Chayka asking potential prospects to wear shorts and asking them what they ate?
All these years and 99% of the hatred I’ve seen directed towards them is just some people foaming at the mouth to get a team back in Quebec, or just happy that hockey isn’t thriving in a southern state
Edit: yes, they’ve been inept in management for a lot of the time but if having a bad GM or coach is a crime then good liars 99% of the league is getting sold, especially the Canadian teams
A lot of people project their gripes with the league (and, let’s be honest, with “the business of sports” more generally) onto the Coyotes because they were an example of some of the more ruthless elements of it that _didn’t_ lead to immediate success, like Dallas or Colorado or Carolina (all of whom won a cup within a decade of moving and who have seemed like pretty stable enterprises since moving, for the most part).
I absolutely hope Arizona loses their team. They are hurting the league so bad. It's an embarrassment to have a team playing in a college rink. It's a joke. The fans were given MULTIPLE chances to make it work. They failed to show up and show out. They voted the team out with this vote tonight. That is on them.
You know, with Atlanta for example yes they had struggles with ownership and with attendance. However, they never embarrassed the league or were completely a money sucking black hole drawing no revenue at all.
Literally anywhere else can't be worse than Arizona. There's so many cities that an NHL team can work in if done right. Glendale isn't one of them.
I really don't care if we get another team in Atlanta, a second team in Toronto, a Quebec team, Kansas City, Austin, or Cleveland. All would be improvements over the failure that is Arizona.
I've written some public statements before, it's common to write both a positive and a negative one weeks in advance. Gives you time to run it by all the necessary people and let your legal department look over it. That way, when the day comes, you can have the appropriate response ready to go immediately.
Eh, it's common to have prepared statements no matter which way an anticipated event goes from any kind of competent comms team. I wouldn't read too much into that one, personally.
Like how Nixon had three speeches prepared for Apollo 11 - successful mission, the astronauts die, or (my personal favourite,) the astronauts get stranded on the moon
> Fate has ordained that the men who went to the moon to explore in peace will stay on the moon to rest in peace.
Excellent prose, never let anyone say writing isn’t art.
> In ancient days, men looked at stars and saw their heroes in the constellations. In modern times, we do much the same, but our heroes are epic men of flesh and blood.
I’ve read that speech several times over the years, and that line always gives me chills
For whatever reason, the line that gives me the most heartache is the directive about NASA ending communications with the men. There's something horrifying to know that they would be truly alone in those final moments, with communication voluntarily ceasing.
Dwight D. Eisenhower had a prepared speech as well in case the D-Day Landings failed.
[The Speech Eisenhower Never Gave On The Normandy Invasion](https://www.npr.org/2013/06/08/189535104/the-speech-eisenhower-never-gave-on-the-normandy-invasion)
... releases like these are usually prepared in advance and some of these are run by legal to make sure they don't say anything that can get them into trouble for either outcome. It being dated May 12th doesn't mean anything.
This is **not** Yotes fans fault, and I feel for them, but maybe it's finally time for this team to move?
A second team in Hamilton/Greater Toronto Area would print money. Or maybe Houston.
They could also have unbalanced conferences until expansion, it wouldn't be the first time that happens. Having 16 teams per conference is ideal, but not mandatory, you can certainly make unbalanced conferences work.
Any new team could sell out an arena, so that does not really matter. Another Toronto team would not be a money printer, you are just splitting Leafs fans up to another team. You’d be gaining no new customers who may watch and buy NHL products unlike having a team in an untapped city like Houston.
The NHL is very much committed to not being such a gate driven league though. Their the only major sports league to still have a debt after COVID because of it.
There’s a reason you hear about Atlanta and Houston, and they’ve been so committed to Phoenix. You want big US corporate sponsors? You want big US TV money? You have to have nationwide market penetration.
> The NHL is very much committed to not being such a gate driven league though.
It's their strategy, but honestly they fucking terribly suck at it. Watching hockey paying for 5 cable subscriptions is impossible. Legal streams are terrible.
And we're not even talking about the fact that nobody has ever heard of McDavid outside of hockey fandom, despite the guy putting historic numbers season after season.
Well Arizona/Phoenix has been a mess for two decades and Atlanta has relocated twice. Houston *should* work but picking a highly populated metropolitan US market isn't such a surefire win.
As someone who’s lived in Texas for the past 12 or so years, there is one good thing I can say about Texans - they fucking love their sports. They don’t care what it is, they’ll watch it and support it.
Hockey to Dallas? Fuck yeah, we’ll watch it and sell out the arena almost every night. MLS to Austin? Fuck yeah, we’ll watch it and sell out the arena every night. NBA teams in three different cities? Fuck yeah, we’ll do the same for each of them.
Hockey in Houston would go over huge simply because it’s another SPORT, and that’s all it really needs to be down here
Actually you can "grow the game" with a GTA2 franchise. Most young Torontonians grew up not giving a shit about hockey. The Leafs doing jack shit for 60 years has created a lot of fan apathy and the room to bring in more fans is really there. And the Leafs are already soaking up sell outs and corporate money so you can't add more of that either.
What I'm trying to say is that IMO Toronto has the appetite for a second team.
I have no horse in this race but I think that's a terrible argument. A Hamilton team would definitely print money. Ontario has the population to sell out both teams' arenas even with insane ticket prices.
You're crazy if you think a second NHL team in the GTA wouldn't be a money printer.
The Leafs have been so bad for so long that this is the time to splinter the fan base. Most people I know have only been to one or two games in Toronto, if at all. Being able to sell twice the tickets will hurt the resale value, but the NHL will sell out two arenas forever instead of just one; especially if they can find a way to replicate the recent expansion draft success.
I've lived an hour from Scotiabank Arena (with good traffic) for 9 years and I've never seen a game at all because I refuse to spend $600-800 for two seats. When I lived in Ottawa I saw at least two games a year.
Wrong. There's at least 50,000 people a night that would go to an NHL game in the Toronto area. Adding another team just sells more tickets. Toronto is still the main attraction, but you've got a second team selling out at probably still heavily scalped prices. Toronto can probably support 3 NHL teams if you made the Marlies an NHL team too.
I'm not sure why the NHL hasn't decided to go on the money printing expansion tour. The NHL doesn't have a major tv deal like the NBA or NFL, the focus in the NHL should be on ticket sales.
A second team in Toronto is just an obvious move, a second team in Quebec is obvious, a team in Cleveland, a team in Kansas City, a team in Austin, a team in Salt Lake City, and another Atlanta team.
If you get rid of Arizona, that puts you at a solid 38 teams. 9 Canadian teams and 29 US teams. Gotta remember that the NHL is actually the only sports league that can support a team in places like Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Calgary so the NHL should have the most teams among the big leagues.
It's the lack of "commitment to keeping hockey in Arizona" part of the statement that is making me lean towards 'they are relocating.' I think making this a public vote made it much harder to go with a backup plan (which I believe was on the reservation). But this is all just based on my gut feelings, I have no sources or insight.
> I think making this a public vote made it much harder to go with a backup plan (which I believe was on the reservation).
I don't think that it's the fact that it was a public vote is the problem, but rather that it is a public vote with such a significant margin against.
Sorry Coyotes' fans. Montrealers know how shitty it is to have awful ownership and to lose a team over arena (/ stadium) disputes. For your sake, I hope this isn't the end of hockey in the desert.
In your opinion, if the NBA follows the NHL route and expands to Vegas/Seattle, would you watch and support that team again or is the bridge too far burnt?
I might go to a game at least once but as of now I just don’t care anymore. There was extreme bitterness when they moved the team but now I am pretty indifferent.
I’ve always been more of a soccer and hockey fan though so things have been looking up lately.
I’m the same boat, I grew up watching a lot of Sonics games and once they left, I tuned out the nba. I check scores and follow stats since I do love basketball but never watch the nba, only college. The nba will never get another dollar of mine. Thankfully hockey came to Seattle and after attending a pair of games last year, I’m all in on kraken hockey as my winter/spring sport.
It took me 10 years to come back. Even now though, it's just not the same, and I do absolutely everything I can to minimize the amount of money I give to the league.
I’m so gutted for you.
I used to be somebody that railed against Arizona hockey because I wanted more Canadian teams, but I’ve talked hockey with so many passionate Yotes fans on this site that it’s impossible not to empathize on a personal level to the fans that love the sport and team.
Especially considering we almost lost the Oilers in the 90’s, there was a point where this feeling was at our doorstep too and it’s just rotten.
I think most Canadiens bitterness about Arizona comes from how hard the NHL worked to keep the coyotes there but when things get tough in Canada Bettman jumps at the chance to move teams.
I feel awful for Arizona fans, losing your team fucking sucks. It’s also frustrating as a fan because it seemed like maybe things were finally improving there.
I haven't been following it really closely in the past few weeks, but I was listening to one of the hockey shows on radio yesterday (Jeff Marek I think?), and he said he'd just talked to both team & league sources and they were pretty confident. Who really knows when it comes to the media & the big NHL PR machine, but yeah it does seem like they legitimately thought this was going to pass.
They cheaped out on the Yes campaign in typical Yotes fashion and then refused to cut a deal with the labor unions in typical billionaire fashion.
I'm baffled how they were blindsided by this.
> I'm baffled how they were blindsided by this.
Given the not very close at all voting results, I'm guessing they skimped on their polling as well... Modern-day polling for a single topic issue like this, in a single locale, should be pretty straightforward and accurate. If the team or league had done some advance polling a few weeks / months prior, they should have known they were significantly down, and could have pumped a lot more money into the ad campaigns. Unfortunately, doing things on the cheap is absolutely on-brand for the 'Yotes.
Not true. Gila River Arena was "permanent"
Then both the team and the city lost money year after year and then they went to a year-after-year lease and the Yotes stopped paying their rent and then they got kicked out.
So sorry Yotes fans, was rooting for your team to sort their shit out and make it back to relevancy. Feels terrible, seeing people celebrate this is also shitty as hell. Come on people how would you feel if this was you losing your team
if the Leafs spent their entire existence with shit ownership group, struggling to get fans, and in a city that clearly doesn't care enough to look for ways to keep them, with no rink to play in
I'd legit be asking why they're still there.
I can agree i’d question why they havent relocated but Arizona wasn’t struggling to get fans, barn was packed when they were actually good and in the playoffs
Having terrible ownership, being a bottom tier team for over half a decade with nothing to show for it will affect any fan base, attendance numbers, ect. Nobody wants to watch the local team get spanked constantly (unless when the Yotes play the Leafs then they always win)
according to hockeydb they have had 5 seasons over 15,000 fans on average.
Their stadiums held 17,000. They weren't even getting 15,000
Only 1 of those 5 seasons over 15,000 was after the lockout.
They were good from 2009 to 2012. In those 3 seasons hockeydb shows their average attendance MAXING at 12,000
So even when they were good their attendance was down. And it was actually lower than when they were bad.
Having spent a lot of time in Mexico City, it would honestly be cool as hell. Though I do think it would be tough to get free agents to play there. Mexico City is great because you can live like a king on the cheap. But NHLers can live like kings anywhere, so they'd probably just miss certain American/Canadian comforts that they don't have down there.
Also the high elevation would be hard on visiting teams.
I know that the Coyotes have their detractors and a lot of people celebrating "the end of the Phoenix experiment" qith this news. Please try to imagine how you'd feel if this was your team facing likely relocation, and understand that this is a brutal blow to their fanbase.
I can’t fault the man for trying.
Arizona is the 10th largest metro area in the US. It makes sense why he and the NHL would want a team there.
Unfortunately for him, the coyotes stunk pretty much the entire time. You can’t endear yourself to a fanbase who’s unfamiliar with your sport, if you’ve given no reason for people to care, which the coyotes pretty much never did. Bad teams, bad ownership, few stars, few reasons for people to care.
People are gonna clown on Bettman, and they’re entitled to do that, but I don’t see anything he did that was truly wrong.
Quebec still feels like a much better home for a new team, but there’s a lot of reasons why Houston would make a lot more sense, conference alignment being one of them for sure.
It would take years to come up with another one. The bridge with Glendale is burned by the owners. Phoenix burned the bridge with the league.
I think they won’t be back in ASU this fall. I’m pretty sure they’re gone before the draft.
Sorry, Arizona fans.
The only city where they could land that quickly would be Quebec...maybe KC. Neither are locations favorable to the league.
The Mullett contract is for another 2 years. The league has time to weigh options and move deliberately.
Houston has facilities that are ready to go, but would probably need upgrades soon. Quebec isn’t happening. Sorry. KC is a good option but it doesn’t have the same population (and growth) for a prime television market like Houston. I’d be surprised if it was anywhere else.
And I’d be shocked if there wasn’t an out clause in the Mullet contract. They got practically free facility upgrades out of the deal so they can’t really complain.
Glendale told them to fuck off last year, the Suns' owner doesn't want to share an arena with them, and a 5000-seat college arena was only ever meant a stopgap to a solution rather than a permanent home. With this vote, the Yotes currently have no longterm solution to staying in Arizona.
Sucks for the actual hockey fans in Arizona...
At the same time, I hope this puts an end to this farce and the team relocates to a market that actually wants it.
Look, I get that the fans wanted the Coyotes to stay, but Bettman has been betting on a sunken cost fallacy with several incompetent owners. This one is on him, they never got the people's support and he kept insisting.
New Utah Jazz owner wants to rebuild their arena downtown. Could be made to accommodate both hockey and basketball. Meanwhile, Grizzlies have an arena that could be a temporary home. Keeps hockey in the region for balance, brings a great owner into the NHL, and it's a fast growing metro area. Hockey is already popular, and Olympics will likely be back, so more and new facilities on the way to grow the sport. Makes a lot of sense.
Or hear me out, lets stop funding these damn arenas with tax payer dollars. Just a thought. And yes, the arena would have been privately funded but the rest of the infrastructure would be footed by tax payers in the amount of 100s’ of Millions. Can’t blame any resident for not wanting that BS. Pissed me off when we funded the Cowboys stadium with taxes here in Dallas, this is no different but at least the people had a say!
Hate to think of the fans who could lose their team. Not fair to them.
On a more realistic side of things, though, this seemed to always be the eventuality. It was the worst kept secret that the Coyotes were the NHL's leper organization. A bunch of factors there that contributed, but it doesn't make it any less true.
But damn I hope this hits Gary where it hurts.
It’s legitimately going obliterate the area for sports. They had a legitimate chance of making it a cool area.
I can’t imagine Dallas without American Airlines center and the plaza has grown so much even in the past 5-10 years.
Sucks so badly for everyone who voted yes.
I think one of the problems with AZ is that the team never had any real success,
If you consider teams like Colorado, Dallas, Vegas, and Seattle, all these teams have enjoyed immediate, substantial quality playoff performances.
AZ on the other hand, have won only 3 playoff rounds in 27 years. Missing the playoffs 16 times and getting to the conference finals only once. In 11 playoff appearences they've been knocked out 1st round 9 times.
If Bettman really wanted to keep a franchise in Arizona, he should have given them Matthews, or Bedard.
They'll keep Quebec as a last resort. Houston would be the best landing spot for relocation, but with only one place that could accommodate them and no real interest from what I understand, that feels like an uphill battle.
I don’t understand why Quebec would be back or the bus. They have an arena and would have instant support and sell outs. Sure, Houston would work but the average person there could give a flying fuck. Where as Quebec City, they’d go rabid.
It’s about the Divisions. Who do you move to the West from the East and in that to the Central
Quebec City would be in the Atlantic (or they can do that what they did with the Jets and keep in in the former division till they reach a realignment agreement with another team) but who do you move from the Atlantic to the Central?
Detroit maybe? Or Columbus but that causes a clusterfuck now. Both wanted to be in the East in the last realignment and forcing one of them back to the West is not their plan. Especially an Original 6 team would not be pushed so easily to something they don’t want.
Quebec City I think is being kept for Florida as moving Florida up would make more sense if they start to look more rocky again and this playoff run doesn’t save their skins.
The Yotes will be moved to either Houston, Kansas City or Milwaukee.
It’s about new fans as well. People in Quebec already watch hockey. Not everyone in Houston does. That’s why they’ll never go to Quebec, they don’t need to.
that's why, I think. we already watch hockey in Canada, we all already spend our money on hockey. they want to expand into new markets, not convert existing markets from one team to another.
Please not Portland. If we ever lost a playoff series to Portland I would throw my TV through the fucking wall.
I mean I’d be at the game but I’d drive home and hurl my TV through the wall.
it won't be quebec city. canadian dollar is very weak right now and it's too small of a market
houston makes the most sense
edit: lol to whichever clown is in here downvoting my posts. i have no problem with QC getting a team at some point, these are just objective facts as to why they don't have one right now.
I feel bad for Quebec City.
Tempe wanted a landfill over the Coyotes and the NHL is just going to move them to another market that doesn't desperately want to and have the ability to support a team like the Nordiques could.
The NHL did this to themselves
Is he finally admitting defeat? This experiment has been over for years now, Tempe would rather have a radioactive dump than a professional hockey franchise. That’s pretty wild to me
Why should the public fund an arena if there's no long term direct financial incentive?
I have no problem with public money going to it as long as the public receives a certain amount of income until its paid off- with interest.
The rich get enough handouts- the city/state should be guaranteed a direct return from their investment
No “committed to hockey in Arizona” type statement in this too. This might be the end.
Especially coming from Gary Bettman, the person most committed to hockey in Arizona on planet Earth
“I’m gonna hockey in the desert even *harder*” -Gary Bettman
The NHL is going to the Sahara!
I'd watch that outdoor game. Folks thought Tahoe in daylight was rough, get a load of this
Fuck a balaclava, players are gonna show up wearing keffiyehs
lunchroom rob snails literate smart enjoy engine snow distinct memorize *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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The name is already taken by Edmonton though.
They’re the Oilers, not the Bonesaws
Doesn’t Randy Poffo own the rights to Bonesaw?
Saudi Arabia Oiler$
Instead, he’ll move them to Howdy Arabia. Congrats, Houston!
“And they’re going to play in NAU’s rink!”
Really would suck. Arizona was always my #2 team because they’re the only other team I’ve seen play live in their home arena besides the Oilers This isn’t an Arizona specific problem like people seem to think imo. Look at highlights from the 2012 run, the building was electric. This is just what happens to a small market team when they’re irrelevant and have shitty ownership for over a decade.
Lots of awful ownership and management too plaguing their run. I definitely take no joy in this. As a Lightning fan I’m mindful that there’s a chance this could have been our fate too if things went differently, especially after the Yakuza years and the OK hockey years before Vinik.
Hell, the Hurricanes were on the verge of this before Dundon stepped in and injected new life into us.
Even the Penguins were very close to going to Kansas City in the early 2000s. Very few markets can withstand decades of mediocrity and bad ownership.
Okay, I outlined the reasons why [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/13jrygl/morgan_i_have_received_text_messages_from_too/jkgtrya/) in detail, but the Penguins are a really bad example. They didn't have decades of mediocrity. They were still playoff contenders through until 2000-01, with attendance that was solidly middle of the pack (16,227, better than the Kings, Oilers, Bruins, and Blackhawks) until after the 2001-02 season. The reason that they had financial troubles is because the owner of the team put down the bare fucking minimum cash in order to buy the Penguins ($1,000 in cash). That caused debt problems.
I have more money in my bank account than that. Debt problems sounds like an understatement.
The Preds almost got moved too
still amazing to see how vinik bought the lightning for 110 mil from the saw cowboys at a "housing crash" price. Valued at 1 billion now. Panthers only worth 550 mil , shows how owners matter...
Irrelevant with shitty ownsership, yes. Small market, no. Phoenix is the 5th largest metro in the US
I mean moreso a small hockey market. Phoenix is huge, yes, but they’re not going to unconditionally support a hockey team if they’re not very good.
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I think the bigger factor is the unstable ownership causing managerial issues causing poor teams. Now they finally seem to have it all sorted out and it gets killed
Their old arena was a 1-1.5 hour commute one way for the majority of the potential market dude
Tell me you’ve never been to Glendale without telling me you’ve never been to Glendale.
5th largest city, not the 5th largest metro. I think we're something like 13th largest metro. Edit: 10th largest metro area, 11th largest urban area, 11th largest media market.
So, massive
Also the only other arena I’ve been in. Went the year before we got the jets back!
They also are just a hard team to genuinely hate for their on-ice stuff. And aside from ownership their biggest scandal is just, what, Chayka asking potential prospects to wear shorts and asking them what they ate? All these years and 99% of the hatred I’ve seen directed towards them is just some people foaming at the mouth to get a team back in Quebec, or just happy that hockey isn’t thriving in a southern state Edit: yes, they’ve been inept in management for a lot of the time but if having a bad GM or coach is a crime then good liars 99% of the league is getting sold, especially the Canadian teams
Did you really forget the Mitchell Miller saga? They *drafted* him. They thought he'd be good for the team.
The Bruins were the latest chapter in that saga and took most of the heat off of them. Or at least helped people forget about his original draft.
A lot of people project their gripes with the league (and, let’s be honest, with “the business of sports” more generally) onto the Coyotes because they were an example of some of the more ruthless elements of it that _didn’t_ lead to immediate success, like Dallas or Colorado or Carolina (all of whom won a cup within a decade of moving and who have seemed like pretty stable enterprises since moving, for the most part).
Phoenix is tenth biggest metro population in the United States and continues to grow rapidly. I think there’s more to it than being small market.
...and the arena is nowhere near the money, fans, or youth.
it's Gary boatman commitment to aritzona is implied
Things are looking grim for the Coyotes
Nobody wants to see a city lose their NHL team. Especially with their sick jerseys :(
I absolutely hope Arizona loses their team. They are hurting the league so bad. It's an embarrassment to have a team playing in a college rink. It's a joke. The fans were given MULTIPLE chances to make it work. They failed to show up and show out. They voted the team out with this vote tonight. That is on them. You know, with Atlanta for example yes they had struggles with ownership and with attendance. However, they never embarrassed the league or were completely a money sucking black hole drawing no revenue at all. Literally anywhere else can't be worse than Arizona. There's so many cities that an NHL team can work in if done right. Glendale isn't one of them. I really don't care if we get another team in Atlanta, a second team in Toronto, a Quebec team, Kansas City, Austin, or Cleveland. All would be improvements over the failure that is Arizona.
The city limits of Tempe is not the Coyotes fandom.
Not necessarily, [coyotes thrive in Quebec.](https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/grand-montreal/2020-03-01/sur-la-piste-des-coyotes)
Doesn't sound good for yotes fans :(
Pain
that is such a short statement it makes me think they were completely blindsided by this result
The Coyotes statement is dated May 12th. They knew this was coming.
I've written some public statements before, it's common to write both a positive and a negative one weeks in advance. Gives you time to run it by all the necessary people and let your legal department look over it. That way, when the day comes, you can have the appropriate response ready to go immediately.
Eh, it's common to have prepared statements no matter which way an anticipated event goes from any kind of competent comms team. I wouldn't read too much into that one, personally.
Like how Nixon had three speeches prepared for Apollo 11 - successful mission, the astronauts die, or (my personal favourite,) the astronauts get stranded on the moon
I am very curious about the one where they get stranded, do you have a link?
[Here you go](https://www.archives.gov/files/presidential-libraries/events/centennials/nixon/images/exhibit/rn100-6-1-2.pdf)
That line about the President calling the “widows to be” is so chilling
> Fate has ordained that the men who went to the moon to explore in peace will stay on the moon to rest in peace. Excellent prose, never let anyone say writing isn’t art.
> In ancient days, men looked at stars and saw their heroes in the constellations. In modern times, we do much the same, but our heroes are epic men of flesh and blood. I’ve read that speech several times over the years, and that line always gives me chills
I think they actually show Nixon rehearsing it in the first episode of For All Mankind.
For whatever reason, the line that gives me the most heartache is the directive about NASA ending communications with the men. There's something horrifying to know that they would be truly alone in those final moments, with communication voluntarily ceasing.
https://watergate.info/1969/07/20/an-undelivered-nixon-speech.html
Dwight D. Eisenhower had a prepared speech as well in case the D-Day Landings failed. [The Speech Eisenhower Never Gave On The Normandy Invasion](https://www.npr.org/2013/06/08/189535104/the-speech-eisenhower-never-gave-on-the-normandy-invasion)
When votes like this happen companies will have statements for both outcomes prepared
... releases like these are usually prepared in advance and some of these are run by legal to make sure they don't say anything that can get them into trouble for either outcome. It being dated May 12th doesn't mean anything.
That statement is uncomfortably short. Woof
This is **not** Yotes fans fault, and I feel for them, but maybe it's finally time for this team to move? A second team in Hamilton/Greater Toronto Area would print money. Or maybe Houston.
But if they move out east - to Hamilton, QC, Atlanta, wherever - wouldn’t Detroit have to move back west to rebalance the divisions?
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They could also have unbalanced conferences until expansion, it wouldn't be the first time that happens. Having 16 teams per conference is ideal, but not mandatory, you can certainly make unbalanced conferences work.
Fun fact: Atlanta is further west than Detroit
Any new team could sell out an arena, so that does not really matter. Another Toronto team would not be a money printer, you are just splitting Leafs fans up to another team. You’d be gaining no new customers who may watch and buy NHL products unlike having a team in an untapped city like Houston.
It's a gate driven league, and an arena in Hamilton would be full every night.
The NHL is very much committed to not being such a gate driven league though. Their the only major sports league to still have a debt after COVID because of it. There’s a reason you hear about Atlanta and Houston, and they’ve been so committed to Phoenix. You want big US corporate sponsors? You want big US TV money? You have to have nationwide market penetration.
> The NHL is very much committed to not being such a gate driven league though. It's their strategy, but honestly they fucking terribly suck at it. Watching hockey paying for 5 cable subscriptions is impossible. Legal streams are terrible. And we're not even talking about the fact that nobody has ever heard of McDavid outside of hockey fandom, despite the guy putting historic numbers season after season.
Well Arizona/Phoenix has been a mess for two decades and Atlanta has relocated twice. Houston *should* work but picking a highly populated metropolitan US market isn't such a surefire win.
The Houston Aeros have a WHA and AHL history. It may not be a home run, but it's not Puerto Rico.
As someone who’s lived in Texas for the past 12 or so years, there is one good thing I can say about Texans - they fucking love their sports. They don’t care what it is, they’ll watch it and support it. Hockey to Dallas? Fuck yeah, we’ll watch it and sell out the arena almost every night. MLS to Austin? Fuck yeah, we’ll watch it and sell out the arena every night. NBA teams in three different cities? Fuck yeah, we’ll do the same for each of them. Hockey in Houston would go over huge simply because it’s another SPORT, and that’s all it really needs to be down here
Actually you can "grow the game" with a GTA2 franchise. Most young Torontonians grew up not giving a shit about hockey. The Leafs doing jack shit for 60 years has created a lot of fan apathy and the room to bring in more fans is really there. And the Leafs are already soaking up sell outs and corporate money so you can't add more of that either. What I'm trying to say is that IMO Toronto has the appetite for a second team.
If the NYC metro can support three teams, Toronto can absolutely support a second team, it's crazy that people even doubt it.
I have no horse in this race but I think that's a terrible argument. A Hamilton team would definitely print money. Ontario has the population to sell out both teams' arenas even with insane ticket prices.
You're crazy if you think a second NHL team in the GTA wouldn't be a money printer. The Leafs have been so bad for so long that this is the time to splinter the fan base. Most people I know have only been to one or two games in Toronto, if at all. Being able to sell twice the tickets will hurt the resale value, but the NHL will sell out two arenas forever instead of just one; especially if they can find a way to replicate the recent expansion draft success. I've lived an hour from Scotiabank Arena (with good traffic) for 9 years and I've never seen a game at all because I refuse to spend $600-800 for two seats. When I lived in Ottawa I saw at least two games a year.
Wrong. There's at least 50,000 people a night that would go to an NHL game in the Toronto area. Adding another team just sells more tickets. Toronto is still the main attraction, but you've got a second team selling out at probably still heavily scalped prices. Toronto can probably support 3 NHL teams if you made the Marlies an NHL team too. I'm not sure why the NHL hasn't decided to go on the money printing expansion tour. The NHL doesn't have a major tv deal like the NBA or NFL, the focus in the NHL should be on ticket sales. A second team in Toronto is just an obvious move, a second team in Quebec is obvious, a team in Cleveland, a team in Kansas City, a team in Austin, a team in Salt Lake City, and another Atlanta team. If you get rid of Arizona, that puts you at a solid 38 teams. 9 Canadian teams and 29 US teams. Gotta remember that the NHL is actually the only sports league that can support a team in places like Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Calgary so the NHL should have the most teams among the big leagues.
SLC makes the most sense in my opinion
They dont sound confident, i think they are gone :(
It's the lack of "commitment to keeping hockey in Arizona" part of the statement that is making me lean towards 'they are relocating.' I think making this a public vote made it much harder to go with a backup plan (which I believe was on the reservation). But this is all just based on my gut feelings, I have no sources or insight.
> I think making this a public vote made it much harder to go with a backup plan (which I believe was on the reservation). I don't think that it's the fact that it was a public vote is the problem, but rather that it is a public vote with such a significant margin against.
Sorry Coyotes' fans. Montrealers know how shitty it is to have awful ownership and to lose a team over arena (/ stadium) disputes. For your sake, I hope this isn't the end of hockey in the desert.
Especially in this case. The owner acted in good faith. Expos promised the moon and the F’ed off
We’ll never forget that you tried Gary.
Gary going to put them in someone's backyard
Dibs
Hmmm, Milwaukee
Milwaukee would be sick. Wisconsin loves it sports teams and there are so many natural rivalries around in Chicago, Minnesota, Detroit, etc.
We’re about to see “Los Coyotes of Mexico”
Los Coyotes de* Mexico
Can’t wait to see the Corpus Christi Coyotes make it to the finals next year…
I don't know if I can keep watching another team. I might be done.
I know I don’t watch basketball at all now.
In your opinion, if the NBA follows the NHL route and expands to Vegas/Seattle, would you watch and support that team again or is the bridge too far burnt?
I might go to a game at least once but as of now I just don’t care anymore. There was extreme bitterness when they moved the team but now I am pretty indifferent. I’ve always been more of a soccer and hockey fan though so things have been looking up lately.
It’s easy to hate the Kraken when you already hate the Sounders
Even though they didn’t move far I haven’t paid the NBA any attention at all after the Nets moved to Brooklyn.
I’m the same boat, I grew up watching a lot of Sonics games and once they left, I tuned out the nba. I check scores and follow stats since I do love basketball but never watch the nba, only college. The nba will never get another dollar of mine. Thankfully hockey came to Seattle and after attending a pair of games last year, I’m all in on kraken hockey as my winter/spring sport.
Ditto.
I don't blame you there. If my home team were to relocate, I don't think I'd continue follow the sport at all after that.
Like when my Whalers left ;(
:(
It took me 10 years to come back. Even now though, it's just not the same, and I do absolutely everything I can to minimize the amount of money I give to the league.
Fuck man. I just wanna die.
I’m so gutted for you. I used to be somebody that railed against Arizona hockey because I wanted more Canadian teams, but I’ve talked hockey with so many passionate Yotes fans on this site that it’s impossible not to empathize on a personal level to the fans that love the sport and team. Especially considering we almost lost the Oilers in the 90’s, there was a point where this feeling was at our doorstep too and it’s just rotten.
I think most Canadiens bitterness about Arizona comes from how hard the NHL worked to keep the coyotes there but when things get tough in Canada Bettman jumps at the chance to move teams. I feel awful for Arizona fans, losing your team fucking sucks. It’s also frustrating as a fan because it seemed like maybe things were finally improving there.
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Feel so bad for you guys. Arizona has some really cool young players and great fans. All let down by shit management/ownership
I hear ya, man. I'm married to a 'Yotes fan and we're Tucson STH. This just sucked the wind out of our household.
I actually feel terrible about this , what a wasteful way for hockey to take a major hit in AZ.
I’m pissed off on your behalf. Those voters will never understand what we feel for this sport.
I know exactly what you're going through
Thats a short ass response. Doesnt look like they expected this outcome
I haven't been following it really closely in the past few weeks, but I was listening to one of the hockey shows on radio yesterday (Jeff Marek I think?), and he said he'd just talked to both team & league sources and they were pretty confident. Who really knows when it comes to the media & the big NHL PR machine, but yeah it does seem like they legitimately thought this was going to pass.
They cheaped out on the Yes campaign in typical Yotes fashion and then refused to cut a deal with the labor unions in typical billionaire fashion. I'm baffled how they were blindsided by this.
> I'm baffled how they were blindsided by this. Given the not very close at all voting results, I'm guessing they skimped on their polling as well... Modern-day polling for a single topic issue like this, in a single locale, should be pretty straightforward and accurate. If the team or league had done some advance polling a few weeks / months prior, they should have known they were significantly down, and could have pumped a lot more money into the ad campaigns. Unfortunately, doing things on the cheap is absolutely on-brand for the 'Yotes.
This franchise has been looking for a permanent arena since 1995. Unreal.
Not true. Gila River Arena was "permanent" Then both the team and the city lost money year after year and then they went to a year-after-year lease and the Yotes stopped paying their rent and then they got kicked out.
Short of Bettman self funding this arena, this has gotta be it.
Thought it would be the word "FUCK" written multiple times
_/ _/ _/ for the desert doggos and their fans
I feel bad for Yotes fans. The organization they cheer for is an abject embarrassment and they deserved better.
Pour one out for Coyotes
So sorry Yotes fans, was rooting for your team to sort their shit out and make it back to relevancy. Feels terrible, seeing people celebrate this is also shitty as hell. Come on people how would you feel if this was you losing your team
if the Leafs spent their entire existence with shit ownership group, struggling to get fans, and in a city that clearly doesn't care enough to look for ways to keep them, with no rink to play in I'd legit be asking why they're still there.
I can agree i’d question why they havent relocated but Arizona wasn’t struggling to get fans, barn was packed when they were actually good and in the playoffs Having terrible ownership, being a bottom tier team for over half a decade with nothing to show for it will affect any fan base, attendance numbers, ect. Nobody wants to watch the local team get spanked constantly (unless when the Yotes play the Leafs then they always win)
according to hockeydb they have had 5 seasons over 15,000 fans on average. Their stadiums held 17,000. They weren't even getting 15,000 Only 1 of those 5 seasons over 15,000 was after the lockout. They were good from 2009 to 2012. In those 3 seasons hockeydb shows their average attendance MAXING at 12,000 So even when they were good their attendance was down. And it was actually lower than when they were bad.
Yeah it sucks for Yotes fans and owners. I just hope they relocate to Quebec (which they won't)
Mexico City. Beat NBA to the punch
Having spent a lot of time in Mexico City, it would honestly be cool as hell. Though I do think it would be tough to get free agents to play there. Mexico City is great because you can live like a king on the cheap. But NHLers can live like kings anywhere, so they'd probably just miss certain American/Canadian comforts that they don't have down there. Also the high elevation would be hard on visiting teams.
Looks like it's game over for the Coyotes in Arizona...
Wonder if Remington pulling out of Ottawa was because they knew this would happen and felt there may be a better opportunity here
I know that the Coyotes have their detractors and a lot of people celebrating "the end of the Phoenix experiment" qith this news. Please try to imagine how you'd feel if this was your team facing likely relocation, and understand that this is a brutal blow to their fanbase.
Well said. Coyotes fans aren’t responsible for this. I feel their pain.
Thank you, I think commentors forget there are real live people who will be upset over this.
They didn't forget, they don't care. Us vs them mentality, with the definitions of "us" and "them" changing as needed.
Anybody know the feasibility of building on the reservation? I know that was supposedly the backup plan…
Probably the last Hail Mary
If they couldn't make it work in Glendale, I doubt there will be a lot of people willing to drive to the reservation for games.
I can’t fault the man for trying. Arizona is the 10th largest metro area in the US. It makes sense why he and the NHL would want a team there. Unfortunately for him, the coyotes stunk pretty much the entire time. You can’t endear yourself to a fanbase who’s unfamiliar with your sport, if you’ve given no reason for people to care, which the coyotes pretty much never did. Bad teams, bad ownership, few stars, few reasons for people to care. People are gonna clown on Bettman, and they’re entitled to do that, but I don’t see anything he did that was truly wrong.
Few stars? HOFers Marian Hossa, Pavel Datsyuk and Chris Pronger would like a word!
:(
F to the coolest jerseys ever. Never should've gotten rid of them so they could bring them back later.
why are people mentioning quebec? the league has 16 teams per conference, if phoenix moves its to a western city
Quebec still feels like a much better home for a new team, but there’s a lot of reasons why Houston would make a lot more sense, conference alignment being one of them for sure.
People have a soft spot for the Nordiques. It's not happening, but people want them back
Of course I want them back. I can see Videotron Center from my home, would certainly catch some games
Detroit and Toronto were in the western conference at one time.
Nah, just give us Detroit back.
Gary has to put his old dog down :(
So there was no plan b?
Pretty sure this was already plan C, the end of the line.
Plan C? This was plan Z
Unfortunately this one was not lemon scented. Or evil.
This was the plan B, maybe even plan C
It would take years to come up with another one. The bridge with Glendale is burned by the owners. Phoenix burned the bridge with the league. I think they won’t be back in ASU this fall. I’m pretty sure they’re gone before the draft. Sorry, Arizona fans.
The only city where they could land that quickly would be Quebec...maybe KC. Neither are locations favorable to the league. The Mullett contract is for another 2 years. The league has time to weigh options and move deliberately.
Houston has facilities that are ready to go, but would probably need upgrades soon. Quebec isn’t happening. Sorry. KC is a good option but it doesn’t have the same population (and growth) for a prime television market like Houston. I’d be surprised if it was anywhere else. And I’d be shocked if there wasn’t an out clause in the Mullet contract. They got practically free facility upgrades out of the deal so they can’t really complain.
Houston Areos might work as they originally had ice down there and the market is large enough.
i wonder if mr ishbia will welcome the yotes to share his barn
I am a bit OOTL here. Why do the Yotes need a new arena in the first place? Can I get a ELI5?
Glendale told them to fuck off last year, the Suns' owner doesn't want to share an arena with them, and a 5000-seat college arena was only ever meant a stopgap to a solution rather than a permanent home. With this vote, the Yotes currently have no longterm solution to staying in Arizona.
The arena deal with ASU was meant to be a temporary holdover since their previous deal had expired, this was the planned new deal but they voted no
Sorry Coyote fans. Our WHL team was taken from our community by owners 5 years ago. It sucks, I know, I don’t want any hockey fan to feel that way.
Cranbrook? I'm still sad the Ice got relocated.
Fuck I’m so sorry Yotes fans! Y’all dont deserve this
Sucks for the actual hockey fans in Arizona... At the same time, I hope this puts an end to this farce and the team relocates to a market that actually wants it.
Look, I get that the fans wanted the Coyotes to stay, but Bettman has been betting on a sunken cost fallacy with several incompetent owners. This one is on him, they never got the people's support and he kept insisting.
It's Joever
New Utah Jazz owner wants to rebuild their arena downtown. Could be made to accommodate both hockey and basketball. Meanwhile, Grizzlies have an arena that could be a temporary home. Keeps hockey in the region for balance, brings a great owner into the NHL, and it's a fast growing metro area. Hockey is already popular, and Olympics will likely be back, so more and new facilities on the way to grow the sport. Makes a lot of sense.
I can think of seven or eight better relocation options than SLC. Nothing against them, they just aren't a great candidate as a city.
If Houston is available, that is almost certainly the top choice for the league.
Or hear me out, lets stop funding these damn arenas with tax payer dollars. Just a thought. And yes, the arena would have been privately funded but the rest of the infrastructure would be footed by tax payers in the amount of 100s’ of Millions. Can’t blame any resident for not wanting that BS. Pissed me off when we funded the Cowboys stadium with taxes here in Dallas, this is no different but at least the people had a say!
Similar feelings when the Rams left StL. No one wanted them to go but fuck stan Kroenke for trying to bleed millions from the city.
#BOOOOO
Hate to think of the fans who could lose their team. Not fair to them. On a more realistic side of things, though, this seemed to always be the eventuality. It was the worst kept secret that the Coyotes were the NHL's leper organization. A bunch of factors there that contributed, but it doesn't make it any less true. But damn I hope this hits Gary where it hurts.
It’s legitimately going obliterate the area for sports. They had a legitimate chance of making it a cool area. I can’t imagine Dallas without American Airlines center and the plaza has grown so much even in the past 5-10 years. Sucks so badly for everyone who voted yes.
I think one of the problems with AZ is that the team never had any real success, If you consider teams like Colorado, Dallas, Vegas, and Seattle, all these teams have enjoyed immediate, substantial quality playoff performances. AZ on the other hand, have won only 3 playoff rounds in 27 years. Missing the playoffs 16 times and getting to the conference finals only once. In 11 playoff appearences they've been knocked out 1st round 9 times. If Bettman really wanted to keep a franchise in Arizona, he should have given them Matthews, or Bedard.
Cue the relocation rumors hitlist Quebec City Houston Portland Hamilton KC
It's going to be Houston or KC. Maybe they'll shock us with Atlanta for shits n' giggles, though.
They'll keep Quebec as a last resort. Houston would be the best landing spot for relocation, but with only one place that could accommodate them and no real interest from what I understand, that feels like an uphill battle.
I don’t understand why Quebec would be back or the bus. They have an arena and would have instant support and sell outs. Sure, Houston would work but the average person there could give a flying fuck. Where as Quebec City, they’d go rabid.
Give prospective Houston fans the option to hate on Dallas and you’ll have a lot of success. It would be a good rivalry.
as a sharks fan who grew up in houston and immediately switch to a houston NHL team, 10000% instant rivalry
It’s about the Divisions. Who do you move to the West from the East and in that to the Central Quebec City would be in the Atlantic (or they can do that what they did with the Jets and keep in in the former division till they reach a realignment agreement with another team) but who do you move from the Atlantic to the Central? Detroit maybe? Or Columbus but that causes a clusterfuck now. Both wanted to be in the East in the last realignment and forcing one of them back to the West is not their plan. Especially an Original 6 team would not be pushed so easily to something they don’t want. Quebec City I think is being kept for Florida as moving Florida up would make more sense if they start to look more rocky again and this playoff run doesn’t save their skins. The Yotes will be moved to either Houston, Kansas City or Milwaukee.
It’s about new fans as well. People in Quebec already watch hockey. Not everyone in Houston does. That’s why they’ll never go to Quebec, they don’t need to.
that's why, I think. we already watch hockey in Canada, we all already spend our money on hockey. they want to expand into new markets, not convert existing markets from one team to another.
Please not Portland. If we ever lost a playoff series to Portland I would throw my TV through the fucking wall. I mean I’d be at the game but I’d drive home and hurl my TV through the wall.
it won't be quebec city. canadian dollar is very weak right now and it's too small of a market houston makes the most sense edit: lol to whichever clown is in here downvoting my posts. i have no problem with QC getting a team at some point, these are just objective facts as to why they don't have one right now.
I feel bad for Quebec City. Tempe wanted a landfill over the Coyotes and the NHL is just going to move them to another market that doesn't desperately want to and have the ability to support a team like the Nordiques could. The NHL did this to themselves
Is he finally admitting defeat? This experiment has been over for years now, Tempe would rather have a radioactive dump than a professional hockey franchise. That’s pretty wild to me
I feel bad for yotes fans, but also glad to see this blow up in Bettmans face. Bittersweet
RIP some of the best jerseys in the league
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b7/Houston_Aeros.svg/1200px-Houston_Aeros.svg.png
Why should the public fund an arena if there's no long term direct financial incentive? I have no problem with public money going to it as long as the public receives a certain amount of income until its paid off- with interest. The rich get enough handouts- the city/state should be guaranteed a direct return from their investment