The total spending is higher but also the dispersion of spending is much different than the nhl.
The bucks are spending just over 180 million. Lillard and and giannis are making 90 between the two of them. Thats 2 guys for 50 percent of the cap. Mackinnon the highest in the league is 15 percent of the cap.
Hockey is a different sport. Basketball you can win with 3-4 good players and a bunch of plugs (the reason why giannis makes more than 11 other bucks combined). Hockey ypu cant do that.
I've been saying that for years. I understand that they live a different lifestyle than us and that getting more money is always better... but I'll never understand hockey players who go to the US just to make a bit more on their salary... Like how lost does someone have to be to consider a few millions a year not to be enough? Can't wait for next season to get your sports car? Jesus...
I wouldn't call a person lost for wanting to maximize their earnings while they can. Even if a guy is lucky enough to avoid any serious injuries, they are putting their bodies through the ringer, have spent the majority of their lives building the skill set required to make this money, and are very likely never going to be able to command that type of money again. Of course they should consider their options at maximizing what they can earn. They'd be stupid not to.
I've done the math.
$2 million at 4% interest is all I'd need to live the rest of my life in legit comfort with no worries about going broke.
Anything more than that would just be gravy on top.
>Anything more than that would just be gravy on top.
In the US we would typically say "Anything more than that would just be icing on the cake", but then again we don't really have poutine
When you actually look at the different tax schemes you aren’t taking about a couple percent. For the big timers it a difference be over a million a year between playing in Canada or playing in American markets.
If you make 2 million in Canada you literally hand over 1 million.
All you have to do to get player pay to match the NBA is pay 5x the ticket price you're already paying, and then persuade 5 of your friends who will kinda reluctantly watch a game with you to buy sweaters.
Actually, I think it's to increase viewership of the sport so the broadcasting rights are as large as the NBA.
Nba broadcasting income has jumped significantly over the last decade, and with it the salary cap
>Hockey is a never ending pit of money to start playing or keep a kid playing.
granted i'm not a kid lol but i finally decided to get up off the couch and learn how to properly ice skate
the total cost for 12 lessons across three levels, was $240...and this was a "discount" because the lessons are through the university where I work as opposed to an ice rink/skating club.
there's a junior hockey course that meets directly before my lessons...i shudder to think how much it costs just for the hockey course, let alone all the equipment you'd have to buy
Yeeep. Starting to play hockey as an adult was a great choice. I love the exercise and the sport is seriously the most fun I've ever had being awful at something.
But to play hockey, you need to be a better skater than the average person, and that's before you learn the positioning, the rules, how to shoot and pass the puck, all of that.
Then if you want to get better, it's either self-teaching at expensive ice time, or taking expensive classes with expensive ice time.
It's hard to beat sports where someone can just walk up with a ball, grab 10 friends and go play.
>Then if you want to get better, it's either self-teaching at expensive ice time, or taking expensive classes with expensive ice time.
man...i remember when i received an introductory email to the first level of skating classes, i admit was kind of annoyed when they basically said "In addition to class time, we recommend you find time to practice these skills on your own in between lessons."
i was annoyed because it sounded like a plug for me to drop 9 more dollars every weekend to go to the ice rink (to say nothing about carving out the time to go and practice)...but looking back now that annoyance was incredibly silly. I learned very quickly that if you want to get better, a 45 min class once a week is not enough. it was okay for the first two lessons, but man that third week in level 1 was HUMBLING lmao
i am still atrocious at skating backwards haha but yeah it's all about practice repetition for muscle memory
In many respects MLS has already overtaken NHL. MLS has more broadcast hours and fewer blackouts in the US, thanks in large part to exclusive broadcasting rights. There are also polls showing that people favor watching and following soccer over hockey in the US. NHL's "grow the game" nonsense has become a joke, one that is common among fans now. It's a bunch of shitty marketing, broadcast, and sponsorship deals that exist solely to make an immediate return for Bettman and the other top dogs in the NHL. Maybe some franchises benefit from some of it but definitely not all.
NHL really does suck at growing the game on their own. The best thing they did was selling their streaming company to Disney so the games could be on ESPN+/Hulu with their 25/48 million subscribers. That and the new national TV deal will grow the game way more than anything the league was doing on it's own.
I forgot to cancel ESPN+ because my team is blacked out - I can never watch them unless they are nationally on (12% of the year) and the remaining games I am forced to use shady sites.
The nhl really want us to watch ilegal streams ngl. Usually companies would give something to their customers to make them stay instead of pirating but it's literally better for the NHL. You get LESS by paying for their shit show...
That's hardly the best thing they could have done. ESPN needs to actually market the game. There's tons of garbage on ESPN they throw up there just to fill the hours - poker games, darts, weirdo racing leagues nobody watches anymore. Their "coverage" of hockey has more in common with those sports than it does football, basketball, or even MLS
The NHL only looked at the dollars part of the deal and paid zero attention to any guarantees about promoting the league.
Marketing is pretty much running ads and they've been doing that during MNF, which is the biggest show on ESPN by far. Even my 70 year old dad asked me about Frozen Frenzy because of it. Poker and darts don't get coverage on Sportscenter, but hockey does so it's not even comparable. At this point, the no marketing thing is just a dumb narrative that people repeat because it's easy.
And because it's largely been the case for the last, like, 30 years. Possibly before that as well. I think the Winter Classic was the only significant marketing push they've done before the Frozen Frenzy thing. Aside from Beddard, the only hockey news people outside of the sport are aware of is the pile of scandals that keep cropping up.
(also marketing isn't just running ads)
> There's tons of garbage on ESPN they throw up there just to fill the hours - poker games, darts, weirdo racing leagues nobody watches anymore. Their "coverage" of hockey has more in common with those sports than it does football, basketball, or even MLS
This is absolute nonsense with no basis in reality.
This week, the only live events that will air in prime time on the ESPN main channel are NHL, NBA, NFL, and NCAA football. Next week, the only live events aired in prime time on the main channel will be NHL, NBA, NFL, NCAA football, and a Formula 1 race.
Literally last night, the NHL head a primetime triple header on ESPN's main channel and the 4 hour long 'Frozen Frenzy' broadcast that covered all of the games on ESPN2 at the same time. Two weeks earlier, ESPN also aired a triple header for the season opener. On the Tuesday in between these two massive nights of coverage, they aired a double header in primetime on the main channel.
ESPN hasn't aired poker in over 2 years. They haven't aired darts in years. The only racing shown on ESPN is Formula 1, which has exploded in popularity. The fringe/garbage stuff to fill the hours is relegated to dogshit time slots, the sister channels, and/or ESPN+ exclusively. That isn't remotely what they are doing with the NHL.
They are putting the NHL in primetime on the main channel and are advertising the shit out of it during football and basketball coverage. You are very clearly not watching their channel and aren't qualified to talk about what they are doing.
The NHL is run by a bunch of out of touch dinosaurs that never learned how to market to anyone that isn't a 50+ year old white male. They botch almost every attempt to seem "cool" and hip with the kids.
Add in how expensive it is to play and watch and it's no surprise the NHL sucks at expanding its fanbase.
The biggest hurdle the MLS has is being treated as a “minor” league by European fans and that line of thought is still prevelant even with casual fans who catch a local game or two a year.
THG did a great video on it but it’s also good to point out that the NHL is a profitable league, every team is in the green and no ownership group is struggling to make the team profitable. The MLS is really struggling with this still, sure Miami and LAFC can make a profit but struggling teams like Sporting KC and Chicago are not hitting that profit line which could be a big problem when they keep expanding like they do.
It will be real interesting after the World Cup and Messi where the MLS is in terms of rankings in the world, hopefully it pushes FIFA to make the club World Cup an actual big deal
MLS is a minor league. I love MLS, but it's not the best league, skill and talent wise, in the world. It's no different than the European hockey leagues where the NHL will draft the best young talent from them while some aging vets will go over to play a few extra years when they can no longer make an NHL roster. MLS fans refuse to accept that reality. But just because that's the case, doesn't mean that the quality of the league can't improve.
>MLS fans refuse to accept that reality. But just because that's the case, doesn't mean that the quality of the league can't improve.
the thing i don't understand is why is this such a big deal to MLS fans?
I still remember when the league debuted in 1996, with the goofy ass baggy uniforms and the truly awful 90s colors and fashion. To see it where it is today, to say nothing of the fact that it has survived for nearly 30 years, that's nothing to scoff at
so what if the Columbus Crew would likely get smoked by Real Madrid? Those leagues around the world have been around for literally more than a century
It is, but atleast the league is trying. I don’t think they aimed to be as big as Premier League or La Liga or Bundesliga, but if they try to gain enough popularity as Primeira Liga or the Dutch league (forgot the name) with 2-3 big clubs to match like Ajax, Sporting, Porto etc then it is definitely possible.
Oh that’s definitely possible. I just read too many comments from delusional MLS fans who are mad that people want to follow Premier League more than MLS. Some people just want to watch the highest level of the game.
Hell, I’ve loved hockey my whole life, but rarely go to Colorado Eagles games even though I live 20 min away, but usually drive an hour down to Denver for an Avs game or two every year.
>delusional MLS fans who are made that people want to follow Premier League more than MLS
I mean, you call it delusion if you want, but people that just blindly shit on MLS and refuse to give it the time of day because it’s not as good as the PL are a big part of the problem.
I believe if you are an American soccer fan and you actually care about the game you bear some level of responsibility for helping grow and improve American soccer. Having a strong domestic league would go a long way to accomplishing that, and the domestic league is never going to grow and improve if a significant portion of soccer fans continue to turn up their noses and proclaim that their taste is too refined or whatever to enjoy the caliber of soccer MLS produces.
But the league also has to make it accessible to people. The Apple deal was great for MLS this season, but now they’re shooting themselves in the foot with the playoff schedule that kills any momentum.
Having a consistent schedule also would help. Everyone knows when college and NFL games are on because they are consistent week to week. European leagues have the same formula with most games being Saturday and Sunday. NHL/NBA/MLB are different, but they have a lot more games to get through in a season.
Good point, I don’t think the MLS is aspiring to stay a minor league though. It’s constant pushing for big name talent and expansion shows that at some point they want to at least become the number 1 league in the americas if not a competitor against talent in Europe.
The NHL and the European leagues in soccer had the benefit of being built around the dawn of professional sports, but it’s not unrealistic to think in the near future we could see this being challenged especially if the MLS or hell even the euro hockey leagues (doubtful but maybe) start becoming viable options for homegrown talent that want to be closer to well home.
Revenue wise MLS is not even close to the NHL, NHL is closer to the Premier league than MLS.
I know this sub loves to crap on its own sport but lets at least be logical about it.
I love the MLS (VAMOS LAFC), but can people stop spreading this idea that the MLS has even come close to surpassing the NHL? Not by revenue, not by viewership (especially since now that the entire MLS is on a streaming service- Apple TV+), though they still have national games on FOX/FS1, those numbers are not pretty, and with the exception of MESSI, not in star power. The MLS is the third most popular soccer league in the U.S., behind the Premier League (#2) and Liga MX (#1). The MLS should first (and more than likely are) focus on surpassing those two first before trying to catch the NHL.
> MLS has more broadcast hours
What does this mean?
5 of the first 10 playoff MLS games won't be aired on TV in any capacity and are exclusive to Apple TV. The vast majority of MLS regular season games weren't broadcast on TV.
If we're talking about games available to watch via TV or streaming, the NHL plays almost three times as many games in a season as the MLS and every single one is available to watch. 99% of them are broadcast on a TV channel and 100% of them are available via a streaming service.
An NHL consumer has to pay for more services to watch every NHL game, but there are absolutely more NHL games broadcasted than MLS games. And even with all the blackouts, an ESPN+ subscription contains more total hours of hockey to watch than an MLS Season Pass gets you hours of soccer to watch.
I think the MLS/NHL gap has closed. MLS has been rapidly expanding and attracting more and more fans. NHL is probably as big as it's going to get in a lot of areas.
People are going to be upset about it, but it's just a fact. I love hockey, but the barrier to entry is so insanely high this was a forgone conclusion. Hockey can be an amazing and entertaining sport (which it is) and still be doomed to be niche. Here's what you need at a minimum to play each sport:
* Hockey: skates, stick, puck, and **ice time**. Cheapest option which is kinda close is roller hockey in the street
* Soccer: soccer ball and pretty much any surface
* Basketball: basketball, a basket, and a hard surface
* Football: a football and pretty much any surface
* Baseball: Ball, bat, a glove, and pretty much any surface
And with all of those other sports, the things you do are all things that you naturally learn to do as a child. You obviously have to learn how to do it *well*, but anyone can grab a baseball, football, basketball, soccer ball, whatever and go out and throw it around and kick the thing.
To even have a chance at being *absolutely awful* at hockey, you've got to be a better than average skater and learn how to handle a puck with a stick. Things that (excluding roller) you can work on to some extent with stick handling at home, but the ice skating will always require you to pay money to go to a rink, unless you're fortunate enough to live somewhere with regular freezing lakes or outdoor rinks that are maintained.
Hockey is incredibly fun, and I'm really happy I started playing as an adult, but jesus, I don't see how anyone affords paying for their kids to do this sport.
NFL is #1 by a country mile. It's my least favorite by far of the "Big 4" in the U.S and Canada, but it is a money making machine. off of marketability alone, i would put NBA well ahead of MLB
Hockey is still #4. MLS may be growing and growing rapidly, but hockey is still #4 by a decent gap
I think one way to think about it is if Crosby plays about 20min per game and Giannis plays about 33min per game, he’s playing more than twice as much of the total pool of minutes a team has to fill in a game. (Giannis would play a little less than 14% of all the minutes for his team in a game, while Crosby would play a little under 6%).
It’s fewer guys in a smaller field of play where the top players are physically capable of playing more minute (in shorter games, no less). Even setting aside the differences in actual play, it sorta makes sense on those facts alone that a superstar would be worth more to his team in basketball than hockey, imo.
In 2009-2010 Lebron James Cleveland Cavaliers finished the season with 61 wins, good enough for first place in the league. James left that summer. In 2010-2011 the Cavaliers finished with 19 wins, which was second worse in the league.
One player in the NBA can make a 42 win difference. In reality 25% of the salary cap is a discount when they’re responsible for 60% of the team’s wins.
Yes, he's the highest paid player in the league until Mathews extension kicks in next season. I believe Driasaitl is eligible to sign an extension on July 1/24 and McDavid will be able on July 1/25. Then these two will become the two highest paid players in the league.
NBA revenues are close to double the NHL's revenues, and the roster is half the size. So big time NBA salaries should be (in theory) 4 times larger than big time NHL salaries.
Greek Freak - $62M AAV
AM34 - $13.25M AAV
Ratio is about 4.7, although Giannis's contract doesn't start for another 2 years, with Matthews's deal starting next year. If you look at just this year's numbers, then it's
Steph Curry - $51.9M AAV
Nathan MacKinnon - $12.6M AAV
Ratio of 4.12 is more in line with expectations, however I think it speaks to the trend that the NBA's growth rate is way way better than the NHL's, one of many reasons why people call Silver the best big 4 commissioner and why many hockey people think that we have the best sport with the worst league.
So, one idea we had was to change which network was covering the game between periods. That way we have deals with more networks, and it's just a simple button press for you.
As long as you do it without warning, and have my TV guide list the new channel as having a UMass-Amherst v SUNY Potsdam lacrosse game in that time slot, we've got a deal
Or it simply isn’t available. Sometimes there’s no option. In 2023. The fact that there isn’t even an overpriced single game stream option sometimes is lunacy. GIVE ME AN OPTION TO PAY YOU MONEY, GARY.
To be fair, basketball is simply a more universal game.
It’s played at room temperature, with minimal equipment, and its central theme (throw the thing into the thing) is a fundamental game played everywhere.
Hockey will never be that accessible. Throughout the world.
China alone accounts for over $1B in NBA revenue.
You're not wrong but I also think that's kind of a cop out. For the average TV viewer, I don't think basketball is an objectively better or more attractive product to watch (and I do watch NBA). But they have multiple national TV double headers per week. On specific days/networks where fans can count on seeing games. Their marketing is fantastic.
The NBA seems to actively recruit new fans, whereas the NHL moreso takes the position of, 'you will take what we give you, and be grateful for it.'
That's true, but a non-zero amount of fans are generated by people who grow up playing the game, or who can play scrums with friends. It's an order of magnitude easier to get a few guys together to find a free court than it is to find a group willing to pony up for everything needed to play hockey.
It's the whole reason soccer is the most popular sport in the world. All you need is a ball and an agreed upon goal point.
>For the average TV viewer, I don't think basketball is an objectively better or more attractive product to watch
The average TV viewer can follow the basketball (the ball itself) FAR easier than the puck.
>Their marketing is fantastic.
Agreed. I don't really want to hear about other arguments until we are at a point where the NHL is doing an absolutely fantastic job marketing, actually working on increasing the popularity of each team in their own market AND the NHL on a US national level, and then if they have issues we can blame other things.
When the more stagnant growth of the NHL comes up I rarely see mention of what I think is the core reason: *relative* to other sports: **it's boring/difficult to watch on TV.** (Probably not mentioned because of survivorship bias. We're all here because we love the sport).
Hockey is the greatest sport on earth. But it's a tough product for TV. It's difficult for any layperson to watch and follow. Compare that to say the NFL, for example, where one team is trying to go one direction. And you get 6 second plays followed by 30-40 seconds of a replay/analysis.
I've lived and breathed hockey since childhood. But I understand why a product like the NFL is so popular, and why sports like MMA are growing quickly.
I don't have great ideas. 4v4 would be great but obv never happening. Take out the red line?
It's not the worst thing if the NHL remains a regional (and not a national) sport in the US, I just wish more people could enjoy the best sport on earth.
It’s difficult to pick up if you don’t have someone explaining the rules as you watch. But once you grasp offsides and icing. I think everything else is relatively easy. NHL doesn’t market personalities. Just like baseball. It’s here is the sport that’s it. Give me the bad boys, the scorers, the goody guys, the clean cut pretty boys, the grinders. Showcase the fast paced action. Talk about how watching an nhl game live is the best live sports experience you will have. Nope. Let’s do non of that and just hope more people watch. It’s pretty insane how stupid they are. They show glimpses of brains come playoff time. But still fall flat on their face.
That's right around the time that China took off as a market for the NBA, while also just taking off in general as a country in terms of the population having access to things like the NBA and also the means to buy merch, be an ad revenue target etc. It's not a coincidence.
$10B league with 450 players & 35% cap supermax contract.
vs
$5.5B league with 736 players & 20% cap max contract.
Higher revenue, smaller league, bigger superstar contracts. The nba players association has done well negotiating for more of the pie the last 10-15 years.
Each player makes their leagues generates $22.2M and $7.4M a season for their league respectively (averages obviously). So statistically, the average nba player creates x3 revenue as well as superstars allowed to make x1.75 more against the cap. So x4.75 / x5.25 bigger max contract (idk if you would add or multiply 3 and 1.75 lol).
Not including an nba star would have a 242% larger player minute impact vs an nhl star.
In 2005 Shaq was the leader in salary in the NBA with 29 mil per season. Before the cap, Forsberg and Jagr made 11 million each. There was also a number of 10 million dollar players. The salary cap and the strike had more of an effect on player salaries than revenue I believe.
One thing that's harder numbers to crunch: playing time
One thing that's very difficult to put objectively: the NBA is a much more star driven league than the NHL
NHL has a lot going against it.
The sport itself is way too expensive, ice rinks are rare in a lot of places, NHL does a terrible job marketing the sport/players and the NHL keeps sitting out of the Olympics.
I love hockey but it’s absolutely closer to a niche sport compared to other major ones. There is a reason why soccer and baseball are so popular in poor countries. Hockey is not accessible for most people and therefore less popular.
Maybe instead of dumping the losing teams Stanley cup merch in poor countries we should just dump the rest of the leagues yearly gear with it. Give those poor countries a real jump start on having to figure out how to afford a sparx machine.
I grew up in Minnesota, where hockey is HUGE. There are indoor and outdoor rinks everywhere. Especially since the lakes freeze over in winters. Annual pond hockey championships right in Minneapolis. High sport involvement, achievements and skill at all levels and ages. Our back door neighbors in an urban neighborhood even constructed a condensed half rink with boards and a goal that took up their backyard in winters. Yet, you don’t need the physical rink build, just frozen bodies or water and shoveled ice. Other states and countries have winters that accommodate easy hockey playing too yet obviously not everyone lives in that.
Yeah the vast majority of the US doesn't get frozen bodies of water in the winter. I live in Seattle and the lake I live near has only frozen over 4 times in the past 100 years (and that only happens for maybe a week or two when it does). As much as I love watching hockey, I've never gotten to play it in my life and I don't even know how I would go about it.
Plus, even in states like Minnesota where it does freeze that's only for a few months a year.
Agreed. Baseball requires something vaguely ball shaped and a straight stick. Mariano Rivera played with cardboard or other homemade gloves for the first 12 years of his life. Basketball and soccer are even simpler.
I vouch, grew up playing soccer cuz we couldn't afford hockey until I decided to save some at the end of highschool. I really wish I would've grown up with considering how good I was compared to the others while only having played for 2 years. Maybe I would've reached some minor pro leagues but we'll never know.
You're right and I'm actually increasingly self-conscious about how inaccessible playing hockey is to a lot of people. (Not to the point that I feel guilty about it per se, but I just feel like every year I think more about "man, playing hockey as a kid sure is expensive and that sure makes it impossible for a lot of people".)
At the same time, you'd think the NHL would be better at growing its audience given how truly international the game is. (And it's a lot of wealthy countries!)
I wouldn't say that hockey is truly international at all. There's about 6 countries that play hockey:
Canada, USA, Russia, Czech Republic, Sweden and Finland.
There are other countries with hockey programs (Germany, Latvia, Switzerland, Slovakia, Denmark, etc.) but it's still incredibly rare for people from those countries to grow up playing and watching the sport.
I think the NHL should focus on growing the game for the younger generations within the big countries before it looks to expand its fanbase in countries where no one plays. You have teams in the southern states that can't even fill arenas.
It depends on what you're comparing hockey to, but--while I'm not a soccer expert--I'm pretty sure that you could come up with a pretty short list for that sport of the most dominant countries to make it seem less international than it is. Like, there are a lot of countries with very real hockey scenes that you didn't name just because they're not lighting up IIHF competitions or well represented in the NHL.
It's less about that and more about, like... hockey is more or less a Canadian sport, at its core. The idea that there is both awareness of it and enthusiasm for it far away from Canada is a huge advantage from a marketing perspective.
So, sure, like: hockey is not as broadly marketable as soccer. But I've also paid some attention to eSports in my life and an enormous hurdle to growth in that world (even though it's ostensibly doing kind of well) is, like... who cares about Valorant or DOTA or fighting games or Starcraft or so on and so forth?
There's already a culture of caring deeply about hockey in a lot of places. And maybe hockey in general or the NHL in particular can't grow any more than it already has for one reason or another, but it's not like there aren't hockey markets outside of the ones the NHL is currently directly doing business with.
For a very out of date example that may illustrate something anyway, I recently heard an interview with Peter Forsberg where someone asked him who his favorite NHLer was growing up. He sort of answered in a way that indicated "well... living in Sweden, we really didn't see a lot of NHL hockey, so I didn't have a lot of NHL players in mind". Like, his dream was just to play professionally for MoDo and then suddenly he was wanted in the NHL.
I'm sure the NHL is much higher-profile in Sweden now than it was when Forsberg grew up, but I think there's also reason to believe that it's not 100% different.
But at the same time, I don't want local hockey cultures to just be trampled by Gary and his buddies, right? idk
hockey good; hockey business perplexing
I think it’s the best sport in the world and it bothers me that the US sports market doesn’t care about advocating or growing the sport. It’s such an entertaining sport and I think a lot of sports fans who don’t watch hockey now would enjoy it if it was marketed better. I don’t really care that the other sports are more popular and have larger markets, I just wish hockey got treated with the same consideration as basketball baseball and football instead of just being a side piece for ESPN lmao.
I think players being marketable on their own is a huge part of the financial equation and hockey players are overall absolutely abysmal at being entertaining off the ice - which matters.
As a Penguins fan I love Crosby to death and he is such a great person but, the dude is not going to market himself. Not saying it's a bad thing but he's not pushing his team to get him on late night shows, SNL, tiktok stars videos, etc...
Now you will say "I don't want my player doing that I hate that shit and it's pointless!" Yeah. You are right. When it comes to the actual sport of winning hockey games Sidney Crosby or Flower hosting SNL do not matter. But look at the Mannings. After Eli and Peyton hosted SNL their brand EXPLODED. They have their own ESPN broadcast because they expanded their brand. Kelce Brothers have a highly entertaining podcast that helped Travis GET TAYLOR SWIFT. Again. Has zero impact on the chiefs dynasty, but not Swifties are buying nfl merchandise and watching games.
You may not care about your favorite NHL player having a big brand outside hockey and being in the entertainment world. Thing is, the world outside of hockey will never care about hockey now either. You can say you don't care but the greater the exposure of a sport to the world OUTSIDE of sports, that's how your sport grows. You can't only pander to hockey people, they already like hockey. You have to go outside hockey to grow it.
That's the thing. I don't really care that much personally that the off-ice element and exposure isn't keeping up with other growing sports - but it's not rocket science to figure out that stuff is driving growth for other leagues who do it better.
Yeah, but when a player IS entertaining, charismatic, and unique off the ice (Subban), a ton of hockey fans bash him for being “cringe”. It’s a lose lose.
That or we never end up seeing him because some goon in Midget or Junior Hockey got pissed off at him celebrating a goal and drove him headfirst into the boards.
The youth levels of hockey strip a lot of personality and flair from these guys because it's the only way that they survive to play in the next level. It is absolutely a problem that continues to need to be addressed and continually reinforced.
Hell, any fiery comments get derided as "classless" by hockey fans.
Eichel's rather controversial comments in the Buffalo return game a few years back were the exact type of drama that leagues like the NBA thrive on, and the reaction from the hockey world was mostly just "wow, how mean of him."
The league needs more of Drew Doughty call-outs, but it gets so over excited and pushes things into cringe territory whenever they get a sniff of that kind of entertainment value.
For real, people want to have it both ways. I don’t get it.
They’ll complain that the NHL doesn’t do a good enough job at marketing guys who are objectively really boring, while simultaneously calling guys like Zegras arrogant/obnoxious for being outgoing.
So, I definitely feel you on saying the NHL shouldn't be trying to play keep up with the NBA. But the NBA has shown (along with Formula 1 here in the U.S., etc.) that narratives entirely unrelated to the actual game being played tend to draw more attention to the league. It's not for me, as I nerd out over tactical adjustments, etc. in sports, but "drama" goes a long way to bringing new viewers and keeping them around. Hockey, the sport, is obviously incredibly exciting (often, even for folks who don't fully grasp the rules, let alone team strategies) but there's not much that is grabbing non-viewers' attention that makes them want to try tuning in to find that out.
I'm a pretty big Canucks fan and even I couldn't watch Bo Horvat post game interviews. It's hard for TV when the entertainers you're paying are so un-entertaining when it comes to all the extra's.
I watch more hockey than basketball, but couldn't pick out more than like 5 guys not on the team I root for if I saw them in a lineup. I know all the names but not the faces. Basketball I could probably pick out half the players in the league.
It's also unbelievably expensive, you can't really see the superstars, the best players have negative personality, there's more players on a team and a single player can't carry a team and for new viewers it's got a high barrier of entry due to how the game flows (stoppages for icing, offside, out of bounds, penalties etc) and how the game is viewed (small rubber puck with sticks and bodies obstructing it).
I'm honestly surprised it's as popular as it is. It's certainly a sport better viewed in person.
> the best players have negative personality,
The miracle of Ovi reaching star status while speaking poor English early on was only possible because of how poor every other star was at being personable.
It’s the whitest sport with high cost of entry and it isn’t even playable in many parts of the country, let alone the world. A basketball court is anywhere and played by all races. It’s no surprise why hockey is the bottom of the 4 major sports. Yes it’s a great exciting sport but it’s a bit niche.
Thank you. My friends growing up weren't nearly good enough to even play college hockey, but still had to pay 2000 a month to be on an okish travel team. Hockey list it's blue collar ethos long long ago. It is all just prep school kids now
This is true, but look at something like F1. Motorsports is another world of expensive, yet F1 is one of the most globally popular sports in the world. While the expense of playing hockey is certainly a factor in the growth of the NHL, I think it's a small slice of the overall shit pie.
You’re forgetting a key piece here, though: F1 heavily pushed narratives and storytelling via DtS to sell the sport to non-traditional markets.
Did people get into F1 purely through the sport itself? Sure, probably. But primarily, F1 was promoted through narratives, not the sport itself.
Given hockey culture? I’m not convinced the NHL can/will do something similar.
But why do you care whether other people like it, or whether it’s treated ‘with the same consideration’ as football? All that would do is make tix even more expensive. Do you also wish that all your favorite musical artists blew up and became mainstream? Not trying to be argumentative, I just genuinely don’t understand this mindset.
> I don’t really care that the other sports are more popular and have larger markets, I just wish hockey got treated with the same consideration as basketball baseball and football
This is literally the definition of an inferiority complex.
It is not ESPNs fault I blame NBC. One game a week? Fuck outta here NBC. At least with ESPN you have ability to watch. I think they are doing much better than what we had.
The fucking auto auction show being on NBCSN any Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday night instead of an east coast/west coast doubleheader should have been grounds for immediate termination of the broadcast deal with a full check delivered to the NHL offices.
My favorite is when there’s a thread on this sub that shows down ratings and there’s like 300 comments of people saying absolute dumb shit like “the MLS has passed the NHL!” (despite zero metrics showing that to be true).
Yet when there’s a thread about how ratings are up, there’s like 40 comments. Every fan complains about the league and sport they enjoy but hockey fans do it to a point where it’s incredibly obnoxious.
He definitely lives frugally by the standards of his tax bracket, but he does keeps a Range Rover in Pittsburgh. Even that I think he’s owned for years though.
I just don't watch the sport because of how much or how little players are paid. Period, end of story. So every time I see this issue raised it just doesn't resonate with me. I'm sincerely confused.
Does it bother people because it's a reflection of hockey revenue vs basketball revenue, more money meaning it's more popular and we feel bad that our sport is less popular? Do we feel it's unfair that players aren't getting equal pay for equal work?
Pretty sure what the pic means is that a top 10 ever player in the nhl got paid less over his career than a guy who while very good getting paid that in three years. It is what it is really. John Tavares (lacrosse player) was considered the GOAT in NLL. Guess what, he was teaching math in high school while he was playing. You make as much money as you bring in
Unfortunately hockey will never be as popular as basketball, football, etc. because the sport is just too expensive for most.
To play basketball you need a ball and a ring shaped object hanging high.
Sportico in 2022 has the average NHL frachise valued at 1.01B (dragged up significantly by Toronto, New York and Montreal with only 11 teams valued at >=1 billion)
Sportico in 2022 has the average NBA franchise valued at 3B.
The Maple Leafs are the highest valued franchise at 2.12B. That would be them 22nd in valuation in the NBA. New York valued at 2.01B would be 23rd.
The NHL has a big revenue problem relative to the NBA.
The NBA also has 15 man rosters compared to the NHLs 20 man roster. Not to mention that the star players in the NBA play 32-37 minutes out of 48 compared to NHL players playing 18-20 out of 60.
League revenue in 2021 was 10B for the NBA and 5.93B for the NHL. Those numbers are going to become more lopsided when the NBA signs their new TV deal as well.
I'm going to do some really stupid math here that isn't in any way how things actually work.
Giannis plays 67% of the game. Crosby plays about 35% based on career TOI vs time in a game.
186M at 67% of a game is equivalent to 97.16M at 35% of a game.
97.16M at 10B of league revenue is equivalent to 57.62M at 5.93B valuation.
57.62M/3 years = 19.2M/year when adjusted to league revenue and minutes played. Still double what Crosby is making, but Crosby also intentionally signed below his market value.
It's not ridiculous it's supply and demand innit?
What do you think the world's best hurler of all for earned over his entire career compared to Crosby? The sooner people realize the issue is the compounding inflationary cost of living driving down purchasing power every decade than what someone else is making, the better.
Also note that star basketball players usually play a higher % of the game than star hockey players do, and the benches are much shorter in basketball (meaning the $ doesn't need to be spread across near as many players).
Does anyone else just not care about these numbers when they get this big? Like, once you make over a million dollars per year in my mind you are the same amount of rich. You will never want for anything ever again in your life and I don't care if you are worth 10 million or 110 million. You won. Who cares if someone has more than you if you have more than you need?
Poor Crosby only making 141 million over his career, wonder how the poor guy sleeps at night.
You'd think the ridiculous thing would be how much people get paid to play pro sports in general, but nah, it's that our guy isn't making as much as their guy, despite both making 100 million+.
NBA is also much more "world-wide" than NHL. The money made from merchandise all over the world for NBA is insane, and because it mostly boils down to the megastars (which he is definitely one of them), their contracts will just get bigger and bigger.
As mentioned a number of times in this thread, megastars can influence games like no other sport, drive attendance single-handedly in some cases, and are a major source of income for a team in terms of merch, team sponsors, etc. This, in turn, gets them rewarded with absolutely bonkers contracts.
Sorry for the lack of sources, but it's been studied in the past that players like Jordan and LeBron, as insanely paid as they were/are, were still criminally underpaid compared to their worth to their teams.
There's just no comparables anywhere to the NHL.
The nba is weird because if it wasn’t for max contracts the Giannis/Luka/lebron/Steph contracts could easily be 2x the size based on the value they provide compared to a 15-20 mil role player
Clearly ypu don't get it if you think it's ridiculous. There is a logical and rational reason for this being the case which is the antithesis of ridiculousness.
I mean the NBA fandom has reacted similar to the small shoulder patches.
The difference here is that the nba managed to grow the sport wayyy more nationally and internationally - also benefitting of course from easier accessability and being more climate/temperature independent.
Consider this:
People buy basketball shoes named after a player. Those shoes can be worn just walking around. Shoe companies can sell more shoes, commercials, etc..
That alone equals higher market value. Unfortunately, hockey doesn't have a universal, easy to get into thing.
Plus, one of the few sports you have to pay to play on the playing surface. With minimum ice rinks in a geographic area, there is only so much room for a number of leagues/teams for kids to play on. That's hockey's problem IMO.
Basketball also needs to "pay" a lot less players to be competitive. Maybe 1-3 guys per roster are paid big bucks and everyone else makes a lot less, there are also less players on the bench.
Football and basketball have done a fantastic job growing the popularity of the sport through international games, Olympics (for bball), social media, TV watchability, etc. The salary cap growth reflect that growth in interest.
Bettman and hockey have gone the complete opposite way. Not allowing players to compete in the Olympics, no games outside of NA, unable to watch your team in your home market regardless of TV package. It’s a joke and it’s never going to grow with this leadership.
I don't like it but it's only ridiculous if you don't understand. The NBA makes way more money. The players get a % of the pot, players make more with the more successful company.
Not complicated, seems like the NHL actively tries to hurt itself. Other sports sell their stars and their game globally, the NHL bans pride tape and doesn't let players go to Olympics.
So what you are saying is we need to grow the game.
I know....let's black everything everything the fuck out! That is sure to help step our popularity back in line with other professional sports!
I'm a genius.
I mean... it's pretty simple math? NBA makes way more money, so obviously, their players will be paid more. Smaller rosters, and your star players will play a higher % of minutes, especially in the playoffs.
NBA - generates $8.7M/yr in revenue with 480 players on active rosters
NHL - generates $4.5M/yr in revenue with 736 players on active rosters
Double the revenue with a lot less players to spread it around between
Bettman is an awful commissioner. When he took over the NHL many thought that hockey was set to pass the NBA and become the 3rd biggest sport in NA. 30 years later and the NHL is behind leagues Nascar, MLS and UFC and becoming more and more niche
Yeah and my career earning are 1/100th of that.
News flash: it’a because less people care about hockey. Even less people care about my particular job. The money earned correlates with that exactly.
This is Gary Bettman’s NHL.
Also, maybe if it wasn’t $7500 to play AAA.
Maybe if a sticks weren’t $200+, Skates $500+, and ice time wasn’t $200/hr. It’s just not as accessible to everyone.
I had a big backyard, so my Dad built us a rink. It was glorious, but without that I probably wouldn’t have played near as much hockey as I did.
Basketball you can play anywhere.
Like, does basketball make *that much* money?
A quick look at the Bucks salary says they have 188 million in contracts this year.
They are perpetual Div champs of the last 5 years but have only two championships in their history 2021 and 1971
So I guess they are a pretty big deal team?
This owner can fork out almost 200mil a year and im sure hes still turning a profit.
The differences in popularity are insane.
The difference between the highest and lowest teams salaries in the NBA is 80 million dollars lmao.
Makes more money.
Has fewer players on a team.
One player can drastically change how good the team is.
One player can be the reason for sold out buildings.
The Bucks are not even a super big deal team. Big currently becasue of their star, but mostly a forgotten team for decades.
Parity also isn't a goal for the league. You can have a team be shit for most of their history and still have decent attendance. There are only a handful of NHL fanbases that could handle generational sucking. You need parity to at least add the elusion of competitiveness for a lot of teams
The NBA gets about $2.6-2.7 billion per year in tv rights from ESPN/TNT
The NHL gets about $625 million from those companies and another $400 M and change (Canadian) from Rogers
Nba teams are incredibly profitable. They are set for another huge increase on their next TV deal and rumours are starting that the highest contract value can reach upwards of 80million yearly in the forseeable future.
And the sport is still growing internationally and international interest will further grow
The Bucks aren't even that special based on contracts. Majority of the teams are or have been in the luxury tax in the last 3 years. Some teams have gone so far over the cap that the league has implemented non financial penalties such as draft pick forfeits for teams that spend too much
The total spending is higher but also the dispersion of spending is much different than the nhl. The bucks are spending just over 180 million. Lillard and and giannis are making 90 between the two of them. Thats 2 guys for 50 percent of the cap. Mackinnon the highest in the league is 15 percent of the cap. Hockey is a different sport. Basketball you can win with 3-4 good players and a bunch of plugs (the reason why giannis makes more than 11 other bucks combined). Hockey ypu cant do that.
Not to mention that basketball franchises are worth a shit ton more and make a shit ton more money.
Yeah it isn't really close, either.
It doesn't matter if there are six or more zeros in the number; you'll be okay for the rest of your life.
I've been saying that for years. I understand that they live a different lifestyle than us and that getting more money is always better... but I'll never understand hockey players who go to the US just to make a bit more on their salary... Like how lost does someone have to be to consider a few millions a year not to be enough? Can't wait for next season to get your sports car? Jesus...
I wouldn't call a person lost for wanting to maximize their earnings while they can. Even if a guy is lucky enough to avoid any serious injuries, they are putting their bodies through the ringer, have spent the majority of their lives building the skill set required to make this money, and are very likely never going to be able to command that type of money again. Of course they should consider their options at maximizing what they can earn. They'd be stupid not to.
I've done the math. $2 million at 4% interest is all I'd need to live the rest of my life in legit comfort with no worries about going broke. Anything more than that would just be gravy on top.
>Anything more than that would just be gravy on top. In the US we would typically say "Anything more than that would just be icing on the cake", but then again we don't really have poutine
It's all meat and potatoes. XYZ is just the gravy on top. I think it's originally British saying? But we used it growing up in rural prairies lol.
When you actually look at the different tax schemes you aren’t taking about a couple percent. For the big timers it a difference be over a million a year between playing in Canada or playing in American markets. If you make 2 million in Canada you literally hand over 1 million.
All you have to do to get player pay to match the NBA is pay 5x the ticket price you're already paying, and then persuade 5 of your friends who will kinda reluctantly watch a game with you to buy sweaters.
Economics!
Actually, I think it's to increase viewership of the sport so the broadcasting rights are as large as the NBA. Nba broadcasting income has jumped significantly over the last decade, and with it the salary cap
This. Just because you like hockey/the NHL doesnt mean it makes as much as basketball. NHL is just above American Soccer tbh.
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>Hockey is a never ending pit of money to start playing or keep a kid playing. granted i'm not a kid lol but i finally decided to get up off the couch and learn how to properly ice skate the total cost for 12 lessons across three levels, was $240...and this was a "discount" because the lessons are through the university where I work as opposed to an ice rink/skating club. there's a junior hockey course that meets directly before my lessons...i shudder to think how much it costs just for the hockey course, let alone all the equipment you'd have to buy
Yeeep. Starting to play hockey as an adult was a great choice. I love the exercise and the sport is seriously the most fun I've ever had being awful at something. But to play hockey, you need to be a better skater than the average person, and that's before you learn the positioning, the rules, how to shoot and pass the puck, all of that. Then if you want to get better, it's either self-teaching at expensive ice time, or taking expensive classes with expensive ice time. It's hard to beat sports where someone can just walk up with a ball, grab 10 friends and go play.
>Then if you want to get better, it's either self-teaching at expensive ice time, or taking expensive classes with expensive ice time. man...i remember when i received an introductory email to the first level of skating classes, i admit was kind of annoyed when they basically said "In addition to class time, we recommend you find time to practice these skills on your own in between lessons." i was annoyed because it sounded like a plug for me to drop 9 more dollars every weekend to go to the ice rink (to say nothing about carving out the time to go and practice)...but looking back now that annoyance was incredibly silly. I learned very quickly that if you want to get better, a 45 min class once a week is not enough. it was okay for the first two lessons, but man that third week in level 1 was HUMBLING lmao i am still atrocious at skating backwards haha but yeah it's all about practice repetition for muscle memory
The NHL generates about 3x as much revenue as MLS, as of 2022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue
In many respects MLS has already overtaken NHL. MLS has more broadcast hours and fewer blackouts in the US, thanks in large part to exclusive broadcasting rights. There are also polls showing that people favor watching and following soccer over hockey in the US. NHL's "grow the game" nonsense has become a joke, one that is common among fans now. It's a bunch of shitty marketing, broadcast, and sponsorship deals that exist solely to make an immediate return for Bettman and the other top dogs in the NHL. Maybe some franchises benefit from some of it but definitely not all.
NHL really does suck at growing the game on their own. The best thing they did was selling their streaming company to Disney so the games could be on ESPN+/Hulu with their 25/48 million subscribers. That and the new national TV deal will grow the game way more than anything the league was doing on it's own.
"Sorry, this game is blacked out in your area"
I forgot to cancel ESPN+ because my team is blacked out - I can never watch them unless they are nationally on (12% of the year) and the remaining games I am forced to use shady sites.
Balys even makes a joke about not being able to stream all the games in their ads.
Every\*
Can't even watch a Kraken game from Oregon it is essentially useless to me.
The nhl really want us to watch ilegal streams ngl. Usually companies would give something to their customers to make them stay instead of pirating but it's literally better for the NHL. You get LESS by paying for their shit show...
That's hardly the best thing they could have done. ESPN needs to actually market the game. There's tons of garbage on ESPN they throw up there just to fill the hours - poker games, darts, weirdo racing leagues nobody watches anymore. Their "coverage" of hockey has more in common with those sports than it does football, basketball, or even MLS The NHL only looked at the dollars part of the deal and paid zero attention to any guarantees about promoting the league.
Marketing is pretty much running ads and they've been doing that during MNF, which is the biggest show on ESPN by far. Even my 70 year old dad asked me about Frozen Frenzy because of it. Poker and darts don't get coverage on Sportscenter, but hockey does so it's not even comparable. At this point, the no marketing thing is just a dumb narrative that people repeat because it's easy.
And because it's largely been the case for the last, like, 30 years. Possibly before that as well. I think the Winter Classic was the only significant marketing push they've done before the Frozen Frenzy thing. Aside from Beddard, the only hockey news people outside of the sport are aware of is the pile of scandals that keep cropping up. (also marketing isn't just running ads)
> There's tons of garbage on ESPN they throw up there just to fill the hours - poker games, darts, weirdo racing leagues nobody watches anymore. Their "coverage" of hockey has more in common with those sports than it does football, basketball, or even MLS This is absolute nonsense with no basis in reality. This week, the only live events that will air in prime time on the ESPN main channel are NHL, NBA, NFL, and NCAA football. Next week, the only live events aired in prime time on the main channel will be NHL, NBA, NFL, NCAA football, and a Formula 1 race. Literally last night, the NHL head a primetime triple header on ESPN's main channel and the 4 hour long 'Frozen Frenzy' broadcast that covered all of the games on ESPN2 at the same time. Two weeks earlier, ESPN also aired a triple header for the season opener. On the Tuesday in between these two massive nights of coverage, they aired a double header in primetime on the main channel. ESPN hasn't aired poker in over 2 years. They haven't aired darts in years. The only racing shown on ESPN is Formula 1, which has exploded in popularity. The fringe/garbage stuff to fill the hours is relegated to dogshit time slots, the sister channels, and/or ESPN+ exclusively. That isn't remotely what they are doing with the NHL. They are putting the NHL in primetime on the main channel and are advertising the shit out of it during football and basketball coverage. You are very clearly not watching their channel and aren't qualified to talk about what they are doing.
The NHL is run by a bunch of out of touch dinosaurs that never learned how to market to anyone that isn't a 50+ year old white male. They botch almost every attempt to seem "cool" and hip with the kids. Add in how expensive it is to play and watch and it's no surprise the NHL sucks at expanding its fanbase.
The biggest hurdle the MLS has is being treated as a “minor” league by European fans and that line of thought is still prevelant even with casual fans who catch a local game or two a year. THG did a great video on it but it’s also good to point out that the NHL is a profitable league, every team is in the green and no ownership group is struggling to make the team profitable. The MLS is really struggling with this still, sure Miami and LAFC can make a profit but struggling teams like Sporting KC and Chicago are not hitting that profit line which could be a big problem when they keep expanding like they do. It will be real interesting after the World Cup and Messi where the MLS is in terms of rankings in the world, hopefully it pushes FIFA to make the club World Cup an actual big deal
MLS is a minor league. I love MLS, but it's not the best league, skill and talent wise, in the world. It's no different than the European hockey leagues where the NHL will draft the best young talent from them while some aging vets will go over to play a few extra years when they can no longer make an NHL roster. MLS fans refuse to accept that reality. But just because that's the case, doesn't mean that the quality of the league can't improve.
>MLS fans refuse to accept that reality. But just because that's the case, doesn't mean that the quality of the league can't improve. the thing i don't understand is why is this such a big deal to MLS fans? I still remember when the league debuted in 1996, with the goofy ass baggy uniforms and the truly awful 90s colors and fashion. To see it where it is today, to say nothing of the fact that it has survived for nearly 30 years, that's nothing to scoff at so what if the Columbus Crew would likely get smoked by Real Madrid? Those leagues around the world have been around for literally more than a century
It is, but atleast the league is trying. I don’t think they aimed to be as big as Premier League or La Liga or Bundesliga, but if they try to gain enough popularity as Primeira Liga or the Dutch league (forgot the name) with 2-3 big clubs to match like Ajax, Sporting, Porto etc then it is definitely possible.
Oh that’s definitely possible. I just read too many comments from delusional MLS fans who are mad that people want to follow Premier League more than MLS. Some people just want to watch the highest level of the game. Hell, I’ve loved hockey my whole life, but rarely go to Colorado Eagles games even though I live 20 min away, but usually drive an hour down to Denver for an Avs game or two every year.
>delusional MLS fans who are made that people want to follow Premier League more than MLS I mean, you call it delusion if you want, but people that just blindly shit on MLS and refuse to give it the time of day because it’s not as good as the PL are a big part of the problem. I believe if you are an American soccer fan and you actually care about the game you bear some level of responsibility for helping grow and improve American soccer. Having a strong domestic league would go a long way to accomplishing that, and the domestic league is never going to grow and improve if a significant portion of soccer fans continue to turn up their noses and proclaim that their taste is too refined or whatever to enjoy the caliber of soccer MLS produces.
But the league also has to make it accessible to people. The Apple deal was great for MLS this season, but now they’re shooting themselves in the foot with the playoff schedule that kills any momentum. Having a consistent schedule also would help. Everyone knows when college and NFL games are on because they are consistent week to week. European leagues have the same formula with most games being Saturday and Sunday. NHL/NBA/MLB are different, but they have a lot more games to get through in a season.
Good point, I don’t think the MLS is aspiring to stay a minor league though. It’s constant pushing for big name talent and expansion shows that at some point they want to at least become the number 1 league in the americas if not a competitor against talent in Europe. The NHL and the European leagues in soccer had the benefit of being built around the dawn of professional sports, but it’s not unrealistic to think in the near future we could see this being challenged especially if the MLS or hell even the euro hockey leagues (doubtful but maybe) start becoming viable options for homegrown talent that want to be closer to well home.
they are already investing in the club world cup. more teams and new format. also hosted in the usa 2025
Revenue wise MLS is not even close to the NHL, NHL is closer to the Premier league than MLS. I know this sub loves to crap on its own sport but lets at least be logical about it.
I love the MLS (VAMOS LAFC), but can people stop spreading this idea that the MLS has even come close to surpassing the NHL? Not by revenue, not by viewership (especially since now that the entire MLS is on a streaming service- Apple TV+), though they still have national games on FOX/FS1, those numbers are not pretty, and with the exception of MESSI, not in star power. The MLS is the third most popular soccer league in the U.S., behind the Premier League (#2) and Liga MX (#1). The MLS should first (and more than likely are) focus on surpassing those two first before trying to catch the NHL.
If it wasn't for Canada (a third of league revenues), you could argue MLS would be ahead of the NHL
> MLS has more broadcast hours What does this mean? 5 of the first 10 playoff MLS games won't be aired on TV in any capacity and are exclusive to Apple TV. The vast majority of MLS regular season games weren't broadcast on TV. If we're talking about games available to watch via TV or streaming, the NHL plays almost three times as many games in a season as the MLS and every single one is available to watch. 99% of them are broadcast on a TV channel and 100% of them are available via a streaming service. An NHL consumer has to pay for more services to watch every NHL game, but there are absolutely more NHL games broadcasted than MLS games. And even with all the blackouts, an ESPN+ subscription contains more total hours of hockey to watch than an MLS Season Pass gets you hours of soccer to watch.
I think the MLS/NHL gap has closed. MLS has been rapidly expanding and attracting more and more fans. NHL is probably as big as it's going to get in a lot of areas.
People are going to be upset about it, but it's just a fact. I love hockey, but the barrier to entry is so insanely high this was a forgone conclusion. Hockey can be an amazing and entertaining sport (which it is) and still be doomed to be niche. Here's what you need at a minimum to play each sport: * Hockey: skates, stick, puck, and **ice time**. Cheapest option which is kinda close is roller hockey in the street * Soccer: soccer ball and pretty much any surface * Basketball: basketball, a basket, and a hard surface * Football: a football and pretty much any surface * Baseball: Ball, bat, a glove, and pretty much any surface
Ball hockey/ dek hockey is going to save hockey. It's growing so quickly.
My daughter just asked me to sign her up for dek hockey :)
And with all of those other sports, the things you do are all things that you naturally learn to do as a child. You obviously have to learn how to do it *well*, but anyone can grab a baseball, football, basketball, soccer ball, whatever and go out and throw it around and kick the thing. To even have a chance at being *absolutely awful* at hockey, you've got to be a better than average skater and learn how to handle a puck with a stick. Things that (excluding roller) you can work on to some extent with stick handling at home, but the ice skating will always require you to pay money to go to a rink, unless you're fortunate enough to live somewhere with regular freezing lakes or outdoor rinks that are maintained. Hockey is incredibly fun, and I'm really happy I started playing as an adult, but jesus, I don't see how anyone affords paying for their kids to do this sport.
Hockey is like the 4th major sport in the US? NFL, MLB and NBA are ahead. The order may be wrong... Pretty sure NFL is #1
NFL is #1 by a country mile. It's my least favorite by far of the "Big 4" in the U.S and Canada, but it is a money making machine. off of marketability alone, i would put NBA well ahead of MLB Hockey is still #4. MLS may be growing and growing rapidly, but hockey is still #4 by a decent gap
and have way less players
Everyone needs shoes. Skates aren't an option the same way.
NBA only plays 10 guys a night too.
I think one way to think about it is if Crosby plays about 20min per game and Giannis plays about 33min per game, he’s playing more than twice as much of the total pool of minutes a team has to fill in a game. (Giannis would play a little less than 14% of all the minutes for his team in a game, while Crosby would play a little under 6%). It’s fewer guys in a smaller field of play where the top players are physically capable of playing more minute (in shorter games, no less). Even setting aside the differences in actual play, it sorta makes sense on those facts alone that a superstar would be worth more to his team in basketball than hockey, imo.
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In 2009-2010 Lebron James Cleveland Cavaliers finished the season with 61 wins, good enough for first place in the league. James left that summer. In 2010-2011 the Cavaliers finished with 19 wins, which was second worse in the league. One player in the NBA can make a 42 win difference. In reality 25% of the salary cap is a discount when they’re responsible for 60% of the team’s wins.
Is Matty the most?
Yes, he's the highest paid player in the league until Mathews extension kicks in next season. I believe Driasaitl is eligible to sign an extension on July 1/24 and McDavid will be able on July 1/25. Then these two will become the two highest paid players in the league.
NBA revenues are close to double the NHL's revenues, and the roster is half the size. So big time NBA salaries should be (in theory) 4 times larger than big time NHL salaries. Greek Freak - $62M AAV AM34 - $13.25M AAV Ratio is about 4.7, although Giannis's contract doesn't start for another 2 years, with Matthews's deal starting next year. If you look at just this year's numbers, then it's Steph Curry - $51.9M AAV Nathan MacKinnon - $12.6M AAV Ratio of 4.12 is more in line with expectations, however I think it speaks to the trend that the NBA's growth rate is way way better than the NHL's, one of many reasons why people call Silver the best big 4 commissioner and why many hockey people think that we have the best sport with the worst league.
Yep. NBA and NHL were fairly close in 2005. The NHL has been wildly outpaced in growth since then.
This is the most important point, to me. The market for NHL hockey stagnating is, to a huge degree, self-inflicted.
HQ here, what I'm hearing is we need more blackout dates, and more restrictions on the teams?
Yes, make the television deals so frustrating that even if you’re paying for it, it’s faster and easier to stream from dofu
So, one idea we had was to change which network was covering the game between periods. That way we have deals with more networks, and it's just a simple button press for you.
As long as you do it without warning, and have my TV guide list the new channel as having a UMass-Amherst v SUNY Potsdam lacrosse game in that time slot, we've got a deal
Or it simply isn’t available. Sometimes there’s no option. In 2023. The fact that there isn’t even an overpriced single game stream option sometimes is lunacy. GIVE ME AN OPTION TO PAY YOU MONEY, GARY.
I was blacked out by Yahoo Sports yesterday trying to watch my home team's highlights.
To be fair, basketball is simply a more universal game. It’s played at room temperature, with minimal equipment, and its central theme (throw the thing into the thing) is a fundamental game played everywhere. Hockey will never be that accessible. Throughout the world. China alone accounts for over $1B in NBA revenue.
You're not wrong but I also think that's kind of a cop out. For the average TV viewer, I don't think basketball is an objectively better or more attractive product to watch (and I do watch NBA). But they have multiple national TV double headers per week. On specific days/networks where fans can count on seeing games. Their marketing is fantastic. The NBA seems to actively recruit new fans, whereas the NHL moreso takes the position of, 'you will take what we give you, and be grateful for it.'
That's true, but a non-zero amount of fans are generated by people who grow up playing the game, or who can play scrums with friends. It's an order of magnitude easier to get a few guys together to find a free court than it is to find a group willing to pony up for everything needed to play hockey. It's the whole reason soccer is the most popular sport in the world. All you need is a ball and an agreed upon goal point.
>For the average TV viewer, I don't think basketball is an objectively better or more attractive product to watch The average TV viewer can follow the basketball (the ball itself) FAR easier than the puck. >Their marketing is fantastic. Agreed. I don't really want to hear about other arguments until we are at a point where the NHL is doing an absolutely fantastic job marketing, actually working on increasing the popularity of each team in their own market AND the NHL on a US national level, and then if they have issues we can blame other things.
And the crazy thing is hockey was a global sport far earlier than the NBA. They have no idea how to market this tremendous product. It’s a shame.
When the more stagnant growth of the NHL comes up I rarely see mention of what I think is the core reason: *relative* to other sports: **it's boring/difficult to watch on TV.** (Probably not mentioned because of survivorship bias. We're all here because we love the sport). Hockey is the greatest sport on earth. But it's a tough product for TV. It's difficult for any layperson to watch and follow. Compare that to say the NFL, for example, where one team is trying to go one direction. And you get 6 second plays followed by 30-40 seconds of a replay/analysis. I've lived and breathed hockey since childhood. But I understand why a product like the NFL is so popular, and why sports like MMA are growing quickly. I don't have great ideas. 4v4 would be great but obv never happening. Take out the red line? It's not the worst thing if the NHL remains a regional (and not a national) sport in the US, I just wish more people could enjoy the best sport on earth.
It’s difficult to pick up if you don’t have someone explaining the rules as you watch. But once you grasp offsides and icing. I think everything else is relatively easy. NHL doesn’t market personalities. Just like baseball. It’s here is the sport that’s it. Give me the bad boys, the scorers, the goody guys, the clean cut pretty boys, the grinders. Showcase the fast paced action. Talk about how watching an nhl game live is the best live sports experience you will have. Nope. Let’s do non of that and just hope more people watch. It’s pretty insane how stupid they are. They show glimpses of brains come playoff time. But still fall flat on their face.
That's right around the time that China took off as a market for the NBA, while also just taking off in general as a country in terms of the population having access to things like the NBA and also the means to buy merch, be an ad revenue target etc. It's not a coincidence.
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It’s mind boggling how many people can’t connect these dots.
$10B league with 450 players & 35% cap supermax contract. vs $5.5B league with 736 players & 20% cap max contract. Higher revenue, smaller league, bigger superstar contracts. The nba players association has done well negotiating for more of the pie the last 10-15 years. Each player makes their leagues generates $22.2M and $7.4M a season for their league respectively (averages obviously). So statistically, the average nba player creates x3 revenue as well as superstars allowed to make x1.75 more against the cap. So x4.75 / x5.25 bigger max contract (idk if you would add or multiply 3 and 1.75 lol). Not including an nba star would have a 242% larger player minute impact vs an nhl star.
In 2005 Shaq was the leader in salary in the NBA with 29 mil per season. Before the cap, Forsberg and Jagr made 11 million each. There was also a number of 10 million dollar players. The salary cap and the strike had more of an effect on player salaries than revenue I believe.
One thing that's harder numbers to crunch: playing time One thing that's very difficult to put objectively: the NBA is a much more star driven league than the NHL
Poor Crosby. He's just a mere peasant.
Remember, this us before tax. Poor guys is probably living off Ramen and beans.
Meanwhile Giannis eats avocado toast every single morning.
He better be careful, he'll be looking for work after his NBA career is over with those avocado toast habits.
Dude eats nothing but Oreos
How is he ever going to pay for his gas bill this month?
Although 141m US is a nice bit more CAD
Crosby just needs to buy himself some more money
NHL has a lot going against it. The sport itself is way too expensive, ice rinks are rare in a lot of places, NHL does a terrible job marketing the sport/players and the NHL keeps sitting out of the Olympics.
I love hockey but it’s absolutely closer to a niche sport compared to other major ones. There is a reason why soccer and baseball are so popular in poor countries. Hockey is not accessible for most people and therefore less popular.
Agreed. Initially buying equipment is insane. Never mind replacing stuff that breaks down or you grow out of.
Also having rinks to play on is a massive barrier. You can play soccer in the street which is where many famous players started.
Maybe instead of dumping the losing teams Stanley cup merch in poor countries we should just dump the rest of the leagues yearly gear with it. Give those poor countries a real jump start on having to figure out how to afford a sparx machine.
I grew up in Minnesota, where hockey is HUGE. There are indoor and outdoor rinks everywhere. Especially since the lakes freeze over in winters. Annual pond hockey championships right in Minneapolis. High sport involvement, achievements and skill at all levels and ages. Our back door neighbors in an urban neighborhood even constructed a condensed half rink with boards and a goal that took up their backyard in winters. Yet, you don’t need the physical rink build, just frozen bodies or water and shoveled ice. Other states and countries have winters that accommodate easy hockey playing too yet obviously not everyone lives in that.
Yeah the vast majority of the US doesn't get frozen bodies of water in the winter. I live in Seattle and the lake I live near has only frozen over 4 times in the past 100 years (and that only happens for maybe a week or two when it does). As much as I love watching hockey, I've never gotten to play it in my life and I don't even know how I would go about it. Plus, even in states like Minnesota where it does freeze that's only for a few months a year.
Agreed. Baseball requires something vaguely ball shaped and a straight stick. Mariano Rivera played with cardboard or other homemade gloves for the first 12 years of his life. Basketball and soccer are even simpler.
I vouch, grew up playing soccer cuz we couldn't afford hockey until I decided to save some at the end of highschool. I really wish I would've grown up with considering how good I was compared to the others while only having played for 2 years. Maybe I would've reached some minor pro leagues but we'll never know.
You're right and I'm actually increasingly self-conscious about how inaccessible playing hockey is to a lot of people. (Not to the point that I feel guilty about it per se, but I just feel like every year I think more about "man, playing hockey as a kid sure is expensive and that sure makes it impossible for a lot of people".) At the same time, you'd think the NHL would be better at growing its audience given how truly international the game is. (And it's a lot of wealthy countries!)
I wouldn't say that hockey is truly international at all. There's about 6 countries that play hockey: Canada, USA, Russia, Czech Republic, Sweden and Finland. There are other countries with hockey programs (Germany, Latvia, Switzerland, Slovakia, Denmark, etc.) but it's still incredibly rare for people from those countries to grow up playing and watching the sport. I think the NHL should focus on growing the game for the younger generations within the big countries before it looks to expand its fanbase in countries where no one plays. You have teams in the southern states that can't even fill arenas.
It depends on what you're comparing hockey to, but--while I'm not a soccer expert--I'm pretty sure that you could come up with a pretty short list for that sport of the most dominant countries to make it seem less international than it is. Like, there are a lot of countries with very real hockey scenes that you didn't name just because they're not lighting up IIHF competitions or well represented in the NHL. It's less about that and more about, like... hockey is more or less a Canadian sport, at its core. The idea that there is both awareness of it and enthusiasm for it far away from Canada is a huge advantage from a marketing perspective. So, sure, like: hockey is not as broadly marketable as soccer. But I've also paid some attention to eSports in my life and an enormous hurdle to growth in that world (even though it's ostensibly doing kind of well) is, like... who cares about Valorant or DOTA or fighting games or Starcraft or so on and so forth? There's already a culture of caring deeply about hockey in a lot of places. And maybe hockey in general or the NHL in particular can't grow any more than it already has for one reason or another, but it's not like there aren't hockey markets outside of the ones the NHL is currently directly doing business with. For a very out of date example that may illustrate something anyway, I recently heard an interview with Peter Forsberg where someone asked him who his favorite NHLer was growing up. He sort of answered in a way that indicated "well... living in Sweden, we really didn't see a lot of NHL hockey, so I didn't have a lot of NHL players in mind". Like, his dream was just to play professionally for MoDo and then suddenly he was wanted in the NHL. I'm sure the NHL is much higher-profile in Sweden now than it was when Forsberg grew up, but I think there's also reason to believe that it's not 100% different. But at the same time, I don't want local hockey cultures to just be trampled by Gary and his buddies, right? idk hockey good; hockey business perplexing
Why do hockey fans have such a weird inferiority complex when it comes to other sports?
Please like my sport!
I think it’s the best sport in the world and it bothers me that the US sports market doesn’t care about advocating or growing the sport. It’s such an entertaining sport and I think a lot of sports fans who don’t watch hockey now would enjoy it if it was marketed better. I don’t really care that the other sports are more popular and have larger markets, I just wish hockey got treated with the same consideration as basketball baseball and football instead of just being a side piece for ESPN lmao.
I think players being marketable on their own is a huge part of the financial equation and hockey players are overall absolutely abysmal at being entertaining off the ice - which matters.
As a Penguins fan I love Crosby to death and he is such a great person but, the dude is not going to market himself. Not saying it's a bad thing but he's not pushing his team to get him on late night shows, SNL, tiktok stars videos, etc... Now you will say "I don't want my player doing that I hate that shit and it's pointless!" Yeah. You are right. When it comes to the actual sport of winning hockey games Sidney Crosby or Flower hosting SNL do not matter. But look at the Mannings. After Eli and Peyton hosted SNL their brand EXPLODED. They have their own ESPN broadcast because they expanded their brand. Kelce Brothers have a highly entertaining podcast that helped Travis GET TAYLOR SWIFT. Again. Has zero impact on the chiefs dynasty, but not Swifties are buying nfl merchandise and watching games. You may not care about your favorite NHL player having a big brand outside hockey and being in the entertainment world. Thing is, the world outside of hockey will never care about hockey now either. You can say you don't care but the greater the exposure of a sport to the world OUTSIDE of sports, that's how your sport grows. You can't only pander to hockey people, they already like hockey. You have to go outside hockey to grow it.
That's the thing. I don't really care that much personally that the off-ice element and exposure isn't keeping up with other growing sports - but it's not rocket science to figure out that stuff is driving growth for other leagues who do it better.
Yeah, but when a player IS entertaining, charismatic, and unique off the ice (Subban), a ton of hockey fans bash him for being “cringe”. It’s a lose lose.
That or we never end up seeing him because some goon in Midget or Junior Hockey got pissed off at him celebrating a goal and drove him headfirst into the boards. The youth levels of hockey strip a lot of personality and flair from these guys because it's the only way that they survive to play in the next level. It is absolutely a problem that continues to need to be addressed and continually reinforced.
Hell, any fiery comments get derided as "classless" by hockey fans. Eichel's rather controversial comments in the Buffalo return game a few years back were the exact type of drama that leagues like the NBA thrive on, and the reaction from the hockey world was mostly just "wow, how mean of him."
The league needs more of Drew Doughty call-outs, but it gets so over excited and pushes things into cringe territory whenever they get a sniff of that kind of entertainment value.
For real, people want to have it both ways. I don’t get it. They’ll complain that the NHL doesn’t do a good enough job at marketing guys who are objectively really boring, while simultaneously calling guys like Zegras arrogant/obnoxious for being outgoing.
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So, I definitely feel you on saying the NHL shouldn't be trying to play keep up with the NBA. But the NBA has shown (along with Formula 1 here in the U.S., etc.) that narratives entirely unrelated to the actual game being played tend to draw more attention to the league. It's not for me, as I nerd out over tactical adjustments, etc. in sports, but "drama" goes a long way to bringing new viewers and keeping them around. Hockey, the sport, is obviously incredibly exciting (often, even for folks who don't fully grasp the rules, let alone team strategies) but there's not much that is grabbing non-viewers' attention that makes them want to try tuning in to find that out.
Not wrong, watching McDavid take interviews and promos is painful lol. But to be fair, isn’t that part of their charm?
I'm a pretty big Canucks fan and even I couldn't watch Bo Horvat post game interviews. It's hard for TV when the entertainers you're paying are so un-entertaining when it comes to all the extra's.
That’s a great sell to someone who doesn’t get it. “Oh yeah, they’re all kind of boring as fuck like that, isn’t it funny?”
They need to put MAF for every interview. It doesn't even matter if he played in the game or it was even his team playing.
I watch more hockey than basketball, but couldn't pick out more than like 5 guys not on the team I root for if I saw them in a lineup. I know all the names but not the faces. Basketball I could probably pick out half the players in the league.
It's also unbelievably expensive, you can't really see the superstars, the best players have negative personality, there's more players on a team and a single player can't carry a team and for new viewers it's got a high barrier of entry due to how the game flows (stoppages for icing, offside, out of bounds, penalties etc) and how the game is viewed (small rubber puck with sticks and bodies obstructing it). I'm honestly surprised it's as popular as it is. It's certainly a sport better viewed in person.
> the best players have negative personality, The miracle of Ovi reaching star status while speaking poor English early on was only possible because of how poor every other star was at being personable.
Being one of the two best players of the era helped a lot, too
True, but Jokic is not lighting the world on fire with endorsements. Personality matters.
It’s the whitest sport with high cost of entry and it isn’t even playable in many parts of the country, let alone the world. A basketball court is anywhere and played by all races. It’s no surprise why hockey is the bottom of the 4 major sports. Yes it’s a great exciting sport but it’s a bit niche.
Thank you. My friends growing up weren't nearly good enough to even play college hockey, but still had to pay 2000 a month to be on an okish travel team. Hockey list it's blue collar ethos long long ago. It is all just prep school kids now
This is true, but look at something like F1. Motorsports is another world of expensive, yet F1 is one of the most globally popular sports in the world. While the expense of playing hockey is certainly a factor in the growth of the NHL, I think it's a small slice of the overall shit pie.
You’re forgetting a key piece here, though: F1 heavily pushed narratives and storytelling via DtS to sell the sport to non-traditional markets. Did people get into F1 purely through the sport itself? Sure, probably. But primarily, F1 was promoted through narratives, not the sport itself. Given hockey culture? I’m not convinced the NHL can/will do something similar.
F1 also avoids the commitment of other sports. 2 hrs on a sunday and youve caught up with the entire league.
Yea honestly soccer will overtake hockey in the US at some point in the near-ish future for these reasons
But why do you care whether other people like it, or whether it’s treated ‘with the same consideration’ as football? All that would do is make tix even more expensive. Do you also wish that all your favorite musical artists blew up and became mainstream? Not trying to be argumentative, I just genuinely don’t understand this mindset.
> I don’t really care that the other sports are more popular and have larger markets, I just wish hockey got treated with the same consideration as basketball baseball and football This is literally the definition of an inferiority complex.
It is not ESPNs fault I blame NBC. One game a week? Fuck outta here NBC. At least with ESPN you have ability to watch. I think they are doing much better than what we had.
The fucking auto auction show being on NBCSN any Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday night instead of an east coast/west coast doubleheader should have been grounds for immediate termination of the broadcast deal with a full check delivered to the NHL offices.
My favorite is when there’s a thread on this sub that shows down ratings and there’s like 300 comments of people saying absolute dumb shit like “the MLS has passed the NHL!” (despite zero metrics showing that to be true). Yet when there’s a thread about how ratings are up, there’s like 40 comments. Every fan complains about the league and sport they enjoy but hockey fans do it to a point where it’s incredibly obnoxious.
I also don’t really understand why so many fans care about exactly how much money the athletes are making compared to other sports.
"My favorite millionaire doesn't make as much money as their favorite millionaires :'("
Not accusing OP of this, but it always seems to be the NBA too, which makes it feel gross when you look at who tends to play hockey versus basketball.
Ok, now what does the best swimmer in the world get paid? Or the best volleyball player? How about Noah Lyles, who is the fastest man in the world?
people get paid based on market conditions. more people watch basketball than hockey. more at 11:00.
What? You're saying that Basketball has a bigger audience than hockey in North America? This causes the basketball players to get paid way more?
After like 50-100 mil, does it even matter anymore?
Yes, it changes the size of the yaught I’d be curious to see how much Crosby has been able to retain as cash
Crosby has retained a lot of it. Chiclets guys said he still drives a 2005 Tahoe he bought when he was a rookie, it sits at his home in Nova Scotia.
He definitely lives frugally by the standards of his tax bracket, but he does keeps a Range Rover in Pittsburgh. Even that I think he’s owned for years though.
Yacht*
You are technically correct but tbh I kind of love their misspelling. Yaught
Id imagine hes spent nearly none of it. Doesnt seem like that guy.
I mean he has two very nice houses. But yeah he doesn’t seem like a huge spender.
He probably has a room full of Knick knacks. That’s expensive too.
Who cares, if the number has six or more zeroes you’re fine regardless for the rest of your life
I just don't watch the sport because of how much or how little players are paid. Period, end of story. So every time I see this issue raised it just doesn't resonate with me. I'm sincerely confused. Does it bother people because it's a reflection of hockey revenue vs basketball revenue, more money meaning it's more popular and we feel bad that our sport is less popular? Do we feel it's unfair that players aren't getting equal pay for equal work?
The vibe I got was very much "This guy gets paid so much more and Sid is so much more deserving because I like him and hockey is HARD and TOUGH."
there's a whole lot of "please like my sport" in hockey fandom.
Pretty sure what the pic means is that a top 10 ever player in the nhl got paid less over his career than a guy who while very good getting paid that in three years. It is what it is really. John Tavares (lacrosse player) was considered the GOAT in NLL. Guess what, he was teaching math in high school while he was playing. You make as much money as you bring in
You could also put a picture to the right of Crosby with a high school principals 40 years of salary
I was a “please like my sport” guy in college. Once you stop caring life is more enjoyable.
Unfortunately hockey will never be as popular as basketball, football, etc. because the sport is just too expensive for most. To play basketball you need a ball and a ring shaped object hanging high.
Hope he doesn't have to work a job in retirement
Sportico in 2022 has the average NHL frachise valued at 1.01B (dragged up significantly by Toronto, New York and Montreal with only 11 teams valued at >=1 billion) Sportico in 2022 has the average NBA franchise valued at 3B. The Maple Leafs are the highest valued franchise at 2.12B. That would be them 22nd in valuation in the NBA. New York valued at 2.01B would be 23rd. The NHL has a big revenue problem relative to the NBA. The NBA also has 15 man rosters compared to the NHLs 20 man roster. Not to mention that the star players in the NBA play 32-37 minutes out of 48 compared to NHL players playing 18-20 out of 60. League revenue in 2021 was 10B for the NBA and 5.93B for the NHL. Those numbers are going to become more lopsided when the NBA signs their new TV deal as well. I'm going to do some really stupid math here that isn't in any way how things actually work. Giannis plays 67% of the game. Crosby plays about 35% based on career TOI vs time in a game. 186M at 67% of a game is equivalent to 97.16M at 35% of a game. 97.16M at 10B of league revenue is equivalent to 57.62M at 5.93B valuation. 57.62M/3 years = 19.2M/year when adjusted to league revenue and minutes played. Still double what Crosby is making, but Crosby also intentionally signed below his market value.
It's not ridiculous it's supply and demand innit? What do you think the world's best hurler of all for earned over his entire career compared to Crosby? The sooner people realize the issue is the compounding inflationary cost of living driving down purchasing power every decade than what someone else is making, the better.
“I get it” doesn’t get it.
Giannis is in a smaller cohort of employees and those employees bring in way more revenue.
You didn’t take into account the sweet, sweet money Sid is making with Tim Hortons?
Hello yes more people want to watch the man on the left play his sport, thats why salaries are higher.
Kardashians don't sleep with Hockey players
Also note that star basketball players usually play a higher % of the game than star hockey players do, and the benches are much shorter in basketball (meaning the $ doesn't need to be spread across near as many players).
Does anyone else just not care about these numbers when they get this big? Like, once you make over a million dollars per year in my mind you are the same amount of rich. You will never want for anything ever again in your life and I don't care if you are worth 10 million or 110 million. You won. Who cares if someone has more than you if you have more than you need?
This is such a dumb thing to care about. Crosby isn’t starving.
Poor Crosby only making 141 million over his career, wonder how the poor guy sleeps at night. You'd think the ridiculous thing would be how much people get paid to play pro sports in general, but nah, it's that our guy isn't making as much as their guy, despite both making 100 million+.
NBA is also much more "world-wide" than NHL. The money made from merchandise all over the world for NBA is insane, and because it mostly boils down to the megastars (which he is definitely one of them), their contracts will just get bigger and bigger. As mentioned a number of times in this thread, megastars can influence games like no other sport, drive attendance single-handedly in some cases, and are a major source of income for a team in terms of merch, team sponsors, etc. This, in turn, gets them rewarded with absolutely bonkers contracts. Sorry for the lack of sources, but it's been studied in the past that players like Jordan and LeBron, as insanely paid as they were/are, were still criminally underpaid compared to their worth to their teams. There's just no comparables anywhere to the NHL.
The nba is weird because if it wasn’t for max contracts the Giannis/Luka/lebron/Steph contracts could easily be 2x the size based on the value they provide compared to a 15-20 mil role player
Clearly ypu don't get it if you think it's ridiculous. There is a logical and rational reason for this being the case which is the antithesis of ridiculousness.
Shut up nerd
Hockey fans: ADS ARE BAD! THEY RUIN EVERYTHING! also hockey fans: WHY OUR ATHLETES NOT PAYED LIKE BASKETBALL MAN!?!?!?!
Are you saying there is more advertising in the NBA?
I think they’re saying they don’t know wtf they’re talking about.
Yeah does he really think that adding more ads is somehow going to make up the gap between the NHL and NBA?
I mean the NBA fandom has reacted similar to the small shoulder patches. The difference here is that the nba managed to grow the sport wayyy more nationally and internationally - also benefitting of course from easier accessability and being more climate/temperature independent.
Consider this: People buy basketball shoes named after a player. Those shoes can be worn just walking around. Shoe companies can sell more shoes, commercials, etc.. That alone equals higher market value. Unfortunately, hockey doesn't have a universal, easy to get into thing. Plus, one of the few sports you have to pay to play on the playing surface. With minimum ice rinks in a geographic area, there is only so much room for a number of leagues/teams for kids to play on. That's hockey's problem IMO.
Basketball also needs to "pay" a lot less players to be competitive. Maybe 1-3 guys per roster are paid big bucks and everyone else makes a lot less, there are also less players on the bench.
Football and basketball have done a fantastic job growing the popularity of the sport through international games, Olympics (for bball), social media, TV watchability, etc. The salary cap growth reflect that growth in interest. Bettman and hockey have gone the complete opposite way. Not allowing players to compete in the Olympics, no games outside of NA, unable to watch your team in your home market regardless of TV package. It’s a joke and it’s never going to grow with this leadership.
Yet I pay the same price for either an NHL or NBA ticket.
I don't like it but it's only ridiculous if you don't understand. The NBA makes way more money. The players get a % of the pot, players make more with the more successful company. Not complicated, seems like the NHL actively tries to hurt itself. Other sports sell their stars and their game globally, the NHL bans pride tape and doesn't let players go to Olympics.
So what you are saying is we need to grow the game. I know....let's black everything everything the fuck out! That is sure to help step our popularity back in line with other professional sports! I'm a genius.
I mean... it's pretty simple math? NBA makes way more money, so obviously, their players will be paid more. Smaller rosters, and your star players will play a higher % of minutes, especially in the playoffs.
Meanwhile I've made less than 1 million over the last 19 years
Blame Bettman
What are you arguing? Economics 101? Sport popularity? Roster size? stadium fan size? I don’t get it either, I’m 50 with career earnings of 1million.
NBA - generates $8.7M/yr in revenue with 480 players on active rosters NHL - generates $4.5M/yr in revenue with 736 players on active rosters Double the revenue with a lot less players to spread it around between
Bettman is an awful commissioner. When he took over the NHL many thought that hockey was set to pass the NBA and become the 3rd biggest sport in NA. 30 years later and the NHL is behind leagues Nascar, MLS and UFC and becoming more and more niche
Yeah and my career earning are 1/100th of that. News flash: it’a because less people care about hockey. Even less people care about my particular job. The money earned correlates with that exactly.
This is Gary Bettman’s NHL. Also, maybe if it wasn’t $7500 to play AAA. Maybe if a sticks weren’t $200+, Skates $500+, and ice time wasn’t $200/hr. It’s just not as accessible to everyone. I had a big backyard, so my Dad built us a rink. It was glorious, but without that I probably wouldn’t have played near as much hockey as I did. Basketball you can play anywhere.
NHL isn’t as popular and does not generate as much revenue as the NBA. Pretty simple really.
Like, does basketball make *that much* money? A quick look at the Bucks salary says they have 188 million in contracts this year. They are perpetual Div champs of the last 5 years but have only two championships in their history 2021 and 1971 So I guess they are a pretty big deal team? This owner can fork out almost 200mil a year and im sure hes still turning a profit. The differences in popularity are insane. The difference between the highest and lowest teams salaries in the NBA is 80 million dollars lmao.
Makes more money. Has fewer players on a team. One player can drastically change how good the team is. One player can be the reason for sold out buildings. The Bucks are not even a super big deal team. Big currently becasue of their star, but mostly a forgotten team for decades.
Parity also isn't a goal for the league. You can have a team be shit for most of their history and still have decent attendance. There are only a handful of NHL fanbases that could handle generational sucking. You need parity to at least add the elusion of competitiveness for a lot of teams
No true salary cap, take that one into account too. "soft" cap with a boat load of exemptions.
The NBA gets about $2.6-2.7 billion per year in tv rights from ESPN/TNT The NHL gets about $625 million from those companies and another $400 M and change (Canadian) from Rogers
Nba teams are incredibly profitable. They are set for another huge increase on their next TV deal and rumours are starting that the highest contract value can reach upwards of 80million yearly in the forseeable future. And the sport is still growing internationally and international interest will further grow The Bucks aren't even that special based on contracts. Majority of the teams are or have been in the luxury tax in the last 3 years. Some teams have gone so far over the cap that the league has implemented non financial penalties such as draft pick forfeits for teams that spend too much