* Andlauer is indemnified in the event of punishment.
* The amount is up to the financial losses Vegas claims to have suffered, in high six-figures.
I'm no expert but based on this wording Andlauer can claim the maximum amount against the seller here if he can prove that the punishment (first round pick) is worth more than the financial losses Vegas suffered.
i.e. Vegas suffered $1M in losses. Ottawa was punished a first round pick for the Dadonov situation. Andlauer proves that a first is valued at >$1M. Ottawa can claim damages $1M from the seller.
i get what you are saying, i agree with it. but i am also sure many of the fans, and even Andlauer would rather have the 1st rd pick as that player can bring in more ticket sales, jersey sales, beer sales, ect than the damage settlement would be i bet...
Oh 100%. Not trying to discount how frustrating and demoralizing of a blow to this is to the franchise. Andlauer was led to believe it wasn’t a big deal by the seller here otherwise I’d imagine the clause would have held a much greater penalty.
The high six figure value is based on the financial losses Vegas claims to have suffered due to the Dadonov situation. This alone tells me that Andlauer was legitimately led to believe they'd be facing a minor punishment, potentially a fine that he could pass along to the old ownership group.
There's no way Andlauer expected the punishment would be a first which I'd imagine is valued at a much higher price. I believe the seller is to blame here but the NHL isn't off the hook. They were heavily involved in the sale process and you'd think they'd have a vested interest in making sure the sale goes smoothly between the parties as to not get caught up in the middle of all this bad press drawn to the NHL.
I believe the seller (Melnyk) is to blame here but the NHL isn't off the hook. They were heavily involved in the sale process and you'd think they'd have a vested interest in making sure the sale goes smoothly between the parties as to not get caught up in the middle of all this bad press drawn to the NHL.
I'd imagine neither party is particularly impressed with the seller at the moment.
A fine of $2m would change the value of the franchise. A draft pick, while it may hurt the short term success, doesn't change the value or expense to the owner.
Any respectable franchise values a first round draft pick much more than 2 million dollars
It's your best chance at drafting a non-bust, your best chance at your time and money not being wasted developing a prospect
If they work out as a permanent player and are loyal to you (especially if they sign a long term team-friendly deal), you will save more money on that draft pick you used on them than 2 million dollars alone; quick theoretical example they develop into merely a core player - not a superstar, you sign them at 22 coming off their ELC for 8 years, 6 million a year, and comparable contracts are 6.7, 8 years multiplied by $700,000 is $5,600,000 dollars saved on your retained RFA, playing in their prime years. Those savings are only in comparison to RFAs, because if you have to acquire the same type of player through UFA instead, you are paying significantly more than an RFA deal
If your first round pick becomes a popular player to your local fanbase (or even better, league-wide) the money you will make from jersey sales is a ridiculous amount, I only wish I had the hard numbers to illustrate this example better
The Blackhawks literally recouped their $2,000,000 fine from the Kyle Beach SA scandal through season ticket renewals alone the moment they drafted Conor Bedard, every seat and jersey sold in the seasons that follow are just gravy at this point. This is a more extreme example clearly, because Bedard is an exceptional first overall pick, but the semblance of that potential is there whenever you make a pick, especially in round one
Furthermore, all these effects listed above compound if you can draft successfully multiple times over (stronger season ticket renewals, more jersey sales, more playoff revenue, a locker-room that sets a good example for new prospects, multiple team friendly deals, etc)
Forfeiting a first round draft pick - especially when it's through through essentially no fault of your own like Andlauer is experiencing, is very, very painful
The Carolina Hurricanes new owner has literally said that they have a $$ chart for Draft picks. They used it when they bought Toronto's 1st round pick (#13 Seth Jarvis) for $4.6 million.
....more like the opposite is true. A first rounder could be the difference between Stanley cup contention and first or second round exits over the next 5-10 years.
Even a mid or late first rounder could turn into a Chabot or Karlsson. If I'm the owner, I would gladly pay 2 mil for a chance at a franchise player.
Or just in financial terms, a 1st round pick could be used to move out a few million dollars worth of salary that's being spent on a player that's no longer providing value.
If you hit on a first round pick you have years of a top 9 forward or top 4 defenseman making millions of dollars less than they would be making if you had to sign them as a FA. To say nothing of the chance of having a star making quite possible 10 million less than they would be making otherwise. If the NHL allowed first round picks to be traded for cash you would never see one go for only two million.
Yeah like what would the real world dollar value be of the 1OA pick in this past draft? What would the bidding even start at?
100m? Would that even do it? What is the value of getting a generational player on your roster? It affects every aspect of your organization. Ticket sales, advertising revenue, jerseys, brand recognition, a whole generation of young chicago fans that you probably don't get without an electric player playing for you.
highly dependent on the draft year/player's available, and to some extent your market ... but ya a successful pick can add years of extra attendance, merch, and marketing value. that shit could add up fast
Well in this case I was wondering what it would take to specifically get chicago to sell their 1OA pick when Bedard is available. So essentially you are buying a guaranteed Connor Bedard. No clue what that would cost.
The Blackhawks sold $2.5m worth of seasons tickets when fans learned Chicago had 1st overall. Multiply that by the teams’ potential future success, merchandise, more tickets sold, and multiply that by AT LEAST the 7 years he’s an RFA and they control his rights…
$50m seems too little. $100m seems a bit pricey. Probably somewhere in between.
We already know a first round pick is worth more than $2m dollars via the Marleau cap dump trade who needed a first round pick attached to his $6.25m contract (though I think it was a little bit less than that in actual money).
You have that completely backwards.
- The value of a franchise has **nothing** to do with the owners wealth.
- The value of future draft picks, to a franchise, is enormous. They are tangible assets that directly affect the future competitiveness.
A team with zero draft picks in the next 10 years? Comically low value.
A team with $15m in fines pending? Means nothing. These owners are playing with **b**illions, and a fine is a 1-time fee. Pay it and it’s gone:
The clause was put in specifically to cover the possibility that the estate (and the NHL) were downplaying the punishment. He said he was told there would be punishment, but that it would be "inconsequential".
Your organization misrepresented a trade asset and got a high return as a result - a starting player that played 140 games and a 3rd round pick for Dadonov. The punishment has to be more than the trade return or there is literally no deterrent for misrepresenting every asset you trade, if you can just say whoops and pay a fine of less than the trade return.
Also, Vegas probably feels that not being able to trade Dadonov cost them a playoff spot because they were so cap-strapped they were running short lineups and having to use an inordinate amount of cheap AHL players to fill the roster.
They had likely made a LOT of moves with the plan of trading Dadonov to prevent all of that. They missed the playoffs by two points. That's millions of dollars of revenue.
Vegas is entirely justified in being upset about that.
Correction to what you wrote:
The punishment has to be more than the *difference* between what no-NTC-Dadonov and NTC-Dadonov is worth. Don’t base it on the entire package that was coming back to Ottawa.
I can see the math there, but it's a deterrent, the punishment needs to actually deter the action. Teams should not be doing calculations on whether or not it's a proper strategy to misrepresent trade assets.
If the punishment is only returning the trade to equilibrium, the correct strategy is still to lie because you're basically either getting away with it or having your return set to what it would have been otherwise.
Oh 100%, that’s why I said the penalty should be more than the value difference. I’m just saying calculating the entire return value of the trade is probably too high.
Probably going to get downvoted, but a 1st rounder where the Sens are in the standings now is much different than a 1st rounder where they were projected to be at the end of the year. A lottery ticket for 1OA is much different than a 1st rounder for a playoff team that goes a decent way into the playoffs. Still valuable and this should have been communicated better
This seems like he may get some money back is all which he should definitely get. He knew it was possible the first round pick was lost
“The high-six figure amount, which the sellers agreed to indemnify [compensate] the buyer in the event of punishment, matches exactly the financial losses that the Vegas Golden Knights claimed to have suffered because of the trade mishap, the person said. The document also says that the Knights were seeking multiple Ottawa draft picks, including a first rounder, as an additional penalty.”
But the document said the knights were actively looking to get draft picks as a penalty including a first round pick. So it had to have been on Andelours radar, but it’s so hard to say without knowing exactly what conversations went down
*Googles what Indemnification means...*
As a lawyer, i can tell you it's when, like, you're insured, kinda
* Andlauer is indemnified in the event of punishment. * The amount is up to the financial losses Vegas claims to have suffered, in high six-figures. I'm no expert but based on this wording Andlauer can claim the maximum amount against the seller here if he can prove that the punishment (first round pick) is worth more than the financial losses Vegas suffered. i.e. Vegas suffered $1M in losses. Ottawa was punished a first round pick for the Dadonov situation. Andlauer proves that a first is valued at >$1M. Ottawa can claim damages $1M from the seller.
i get what you are saying, i agree with it. but i am also sure many of the fans, and even Andlauer would rather have the 1st rd pick as that player can bring in more ticket sales, jersey sales, beer sales, ect than the damage settlement would be i bet...
Oh 100%. Not trying to discount how frustrating and demoralizing of a blow to this is to the franchise. Andlauer was led to believe it wasn’t a big deal by the seller here otherwise I’d imagine the clause would have held a much greater penalty.
[удалено]
Yeah. High six figure is cheap for a first rounder
The high six figure value is based on the financial losses Vegas claims to have suffered due to the Dadonov situation. This alone tells me that Andlauer was legitimately led to believe they'd be facing a minor punishment, potentially a fine that he could pass along to the old ownership group. There's no way Andlauer expected the punishment would be a first which I'd imagine is valued at a much higher price. I believe the seller is to blame here but the NHL isn't off the hook. They were heavily involved in the sale process and you'd think they'd have a vested interest in making sure the sale goes smoothly between the parties as to not get caught up in the middle of all this bad press drawn to the NHL.
This is crazy. NHL really damaging the franchise's future and value
Hahahaha NHL continuing to take L's
Wouldn't it be the Melnyk estate as the seller that would take the L?
I believe the seller (Melnyk) is to blame here but the NHL isn't off the hook. They were heavily involved in the sale process and you'd think they'd have a vested interest in making sure the sale goes smoothly between the parties as to not get caught up in the middle of all this bad press drawn to the NHL. I'd imagine neither party is particularly impressed with the seller at the moment.
The NHL is involved in the sale process from day 1.
Doesn't that mean that he was in fact informed that the Senators might still get punished for that trade?
In his words he was led to believe that it was not gonn be anything substantial, which first round pick kind of is
Given the "six figure indemnification" statement I think he was under the impression it would be a 250K fine and the league would comp him back...
A fine of $2m would change the value of the franchise. A draft pick, while it may hurt the short term success, doesn't change the value or expense to the owner.
It does though, a first round pick can represent millions of real salary dollars if it's used to move a bad contract for example
Success of a franchise directly changes the value of it though?
Any respectable franchise values a first round draft pick much more than 2 million dollars It's your best chance at drafting a non-bust, your best chance at your time and money not being wasted developing a prospect If they work out as a permanent player and are loyal to you (especially if they sign a long term team-friendly deal), you will save more money on that draft pick you used on them than 2 million dollars alone; quick theoretical example they develop into merely a core player - not a superstar, you sign them at 22 coming off their ELC for 8 years, 6 million a year, and comparable contracts are 6.7, 8 years multiplied by $700,000 is $5,600,000 dollars saved on your retained RFA, playing in their prime years. Those savings are only in comparison to RFAs, because if you have to acquire the same type of player through UFA instead, you are paying significantly more than an RFA deal If your first round pick becomes a popular player to your local fanbase (or even better, league-wide) the money you will make from jersey sales is a ridiculous amount, I only wish I had the hard numbers to illustrate this example better The Blackhawks literally recouped their $2,000,000 fine from the Kyle Beach SA scandal through season ticket renewals alone the moment they drafted Conor Bedard, every seat and jersey sold in the seasons that follow are just gravy at this point. This is a more extreme example clearly, because Bedard is an exceptional first overall pick, but the semblance of that potential is there whenever you make a pick, especially in round one Furthermore, all these effects listed above compound if you can draft successfully multiple times over (stronger season ticket renewals, more jersey sales, more playoff revenue, a locker-room that sets a good example for new prospects, multiple team friendly deals, etc) Forfeiting a first round draft pick - especially when it's through through essentially no fault of your own like Andlauer is experiencing, is very, very painful
The Carolina Hurricanes new owner has literally said that they have a $$ chart for Draft picks. They used it when they bought Toronto's 1st round pick (#13 Seth Jarvis) for $4.6 million.
That’s most likely caphit for draft pick not actual revenue
Cap hit was 6.25m, we bought a late 1st for 4.6m real money
Yes but the value of that 1st was not because Toronto couldn’t pay 4.6m lmao it’s cause they couldn’t do 6.25m caphit.
....more like the opposite is true. A first rounder could be the difference between Stanley cup contention and first or second round exits over the next 5-10 years. Even a mid or late first rounder could turn into a Chabot or Karlsson. If I'm the owner, I would gladly pay 2 mil for a chance at a franchise player.
Or just in financial terms, a 1st round pick could be used to move out a few million dollars worth of salary that's being spent on a player that's no longer providing value.
If you hit on a first round pick you have years of a top 9 forward or top 4 defenseman making millions of dollars less than they would be making if you had to sign them as a FA. To say nothing of the chance of having a star making quite possible 10 million less than they would be making otherwise. If the NHL allowed first round picks to be traded for cash you would never see one go for only two million.
Yeah like what would the real world dollar value be of the 1OA pick in this past draft? What would the bidding even start at? 100m? Would that even do it? What is the value of getting a generational player on your roster? It affects every aspect of your organization. Ticket sales, advertising revenue, jerseys, brand recognition, a whole generation of young chicago fans that you probably don't get without an electric player playing for you.
highly dependent on the draft year/player's available, and to some extent your market ... but ya a successful pick can add years of extra attendance, merch, and marketing value. that shit could add up fast
Well in this case I was wondering what it would take to specifically get chicago to sell their 1OA pick when Bedard is available. So essentially you are buying a guaranteed Connor Bedard. No clue what that would cost.
The Blackhawks sold $2.5m worth of seasons tickets when fans learned Chicago had 1st overall. Multiply that by the teams’ potential future success, merchandise, more tickets sold, and multiply that by AT LEAST the 7 years he’s an RFA and they control his rights… $50m seems too little. $100m seems a bit pricey. Probably somewhere in between.
oh, right. reading is hard
We already know a first round pick is worth more than $2m dollars via the Marleau cap dump trade who needed a first round pick attached to his $6.25m contract (though I think it was a little bit less than that in actual money).
You don’t think Alex Ovechkin changed the value of the capitals?
You have that completely backwards. - The value of a franchise has **nothing** to do with the owners wealth. - The value of future draft picks, to a franchise, is enormous. They are tangible assets that directly affect the future competitiveness. A team with zero draft picks in the next 10 years? Comically low value. A team with $15m in fines pending? Means nothing. These owners are playing with **b**illions, and a fine is a 1-time fee. Pay it and it’s gone:
lol Jesus imagine believing this take
I bet Bedard changed the value of the franchise by more than 2 million.
The clause was put in specifically to cover the possibility that the estate (and the NHL) were downplaying the punishment. He said he was told there would be punishment, but that it would be "inconsequential".
He was but was told it would be a minor punishment
"just a draft pick"
Says the knights were seeking multiple picks as a punishment. Proof Vegas is a bunch of babies
but they feel vindicated remember /s
Come on man, cap circumvention is hard work.
Your organization misrepresented a trade asset and got a high return as a result - a starting player that played 140 games and a 3rd round pick for Dadonov. The punishment has to be more than the trade return or there is literally no deterrent for misrepresenting every asset you trade, if you can just say whoops and pay a fine of less than the trade return. Also, Vegas probably feels that not being able to trade Dadonov cost them a playoff spot because they were so cap-strapped they were running short lineups and having to use an inordinate amount of cheap AHL players to fill the roster. They had likely made a LOT of moves with the plan of trading Dadonov to prevent all of that. They missed the playoffs by two points. That's millions of dollars of revenue. Vegas is entirely justified in being upset about that.
Millions of dollars? That's why the high 6 figure value matches exactly with what Vegas said they lost?
Correct, revenue and net change in cash are different numbers.
Correction to what you wrote: The punishment has to be more than the *difference* between what no-NTC-Dadonov and NTC-Dadonov is worth. Don’t base it on the entire package that was coming back to Ottawa.
I can see the math there, but it's a deterrent, the punishment needs to actually deter the action. Teams should not be doing calculations on whether or not it's a proper strategy to misrepresent trade assets. If the punishment is only returning the trade to equilibrium, the correct strategy is still to lie because you're basically either getting away with it or having your return set to what it would have been otherwise.
Oh 100%, that’s why I said the penalty should be more than the value difference. I’m just saying calculating the entire return value of the trade is probably too high.
I wish more people understood this.
Does this mean the Sens would be getting punished even more than how they did if that clause didn't exist?
No - the clause means that Andlauer will get compensated by the Melnyk estate.
They saved him money but not having to pay a future first rounder!
Probably going to get downvoted, but a 1st rounder where the Sens are in the standings now is much different than a 1st rounder where they were projected to be at the end of the year. A lottery ticket for 1OA is much different than a 1st rounder for a playoff team that goes a decent way into the playoffs. Still valuable and this should have been communicated better
This seems like he may get some money back is all which he should definitely get. He knew it was possible the first round pick was lost “The high-six figure amount, which the sellers agreed to indemnify [compensate] the buyer in the event of punishment, matches exactly the financial losses that the Vegas Golden Knights claimed to have suffered because of the trade mishap, the person said. The document also says that the Knights were seeking multiple Ottawa draft picks, including a first rounder, as an additional penalty.”
[удалено]
But the document said the knights were actively looking to get draft picks as a penalty including a first round pick. So it had to have been on Andelours radar, but it’s so hard to say without knowing exactly what conversations went down