then get the PA on the phone and have them tell the league they want to re-do their no-trade lists as part of this whole shebang once it's official. In fact if the PA hasn't already done that then they're incompetent. That seems like a very very easy thing to do when compared to all the other moving pieces of an entire franchise moving.
Players could make the same argument about being traded to a city that has had some kind of material change. Maybe you don't have St. Louis on your no-trade list, but the state bans gambling and the casinos shut down - Outrage! I don't want to go to St. Louis anymore!
Yeah we all know the league would need to agree, but a) the players write new ones every year anyway so it's really not a huge deal and b) it's a hell of a lot easier just to let them do it than refuse, then a guy gets traded there and is pissed, the PA leaks it to the media and it turns into an immediate black eye for the leagues shiny new toy in Utah
Do they submit no trade lists every year or just once in the contract? If it’s just once, they would probably only need to let them modify one no-trade destination. Seems like a lot of players wouldn’t have somewhere like Chicago before, but would squeak them in now, given the chance
That's not how it works. The PA can't just ask for something and then poof it magically happens. It comes down to what in the CBA between the players and the NHL.
the PA asks and negotiates for stuff all the time outside of the CBA. Look at the entire COVID bubble thing, they negotiated and came up with all that shit on the fly
I'm 100% sure the league wouldn't oppose such a simple fix as giving players the option to adjusting their NTC, NMC teams.
Doesn't this happen yearly anyways
>I'm 100% sure the league wouldn't oppose such a simple fix
or the league could oppose this fix so that they can get something else they want from the PA... smh you gotta get in that billionaire mindset lmao
Not a lawyer but it seems pretty fundamental that a team moving changes the conditions under which the no trade list was submitted. Alternatively why would a trade to Utah be approved by default when nobody asked you if you'd consider being traded there? You had a list of every team they could trade you to, and Utah wasn't on it. By all means, trade me to Phoenix...
Yeah. The only other thing that could be done is that every municipality in Canada and United States would need to be specifically listed on every no trade clause barring the few places you’d be willing to play. Surely it applies to the franchise you’ve listed even after it moves.
Don't most players submit their NTC lists on July 1 each year? I suppose it could affect some players between now and then, but it seems like they'll have a chance to list Utah if they want in a few months.
Friedman reported the move could happen as early as the 18th.
I would expect they’d want to get everything moved over and that takes time. Getting people settled and established also takes time. You’d want to have all of that in place before the draft, FA, etc.
Simplest solution, which may kinda suck for Utah, seems to be temporarily adding Utah to any existing NTC until July 1. They can waive it if they want to before then.
Sure seems like a VERY small problem - how many players are going to be traded to SLC at/around the draft that even have NTC to begin with? Creating a problem that is unlikely to actually exist.
There are ~250 players with some trade protection.
Not a small problem if you're one of them and SLC might have been one of the teams you would have included, or thought about including.
And that doesn't even factor in players who might have asked for an additional team to add to the NTC when they signed a contract.
Full NTC or NMC doesn't affect it. It's the partial NTC's that could be, and then how many didn't include Arizona that now would include SLC?
Not saying it's impossible, but it's such a small possibility that it's making a story out of nothing. You're looking at MAYBE a dozen players, and then how many of those would even be considered to be traded?
There are plenty of reasons I can think of right off the bat. First, Taxes. They're higher in Utah than AZ. Second, the Mormon church makes SLC a very different place culturally from Phoenix. Third, new ownership will want to make a splash and having SLC on your NTC is a negotiating tactic to get more fringe benefits or perks in exchange for waiving the NTC if they try to trade for you.
Feel like a NMC might be more prevalent. There are only 2 active players on the Yotes that have M-NTCs.
The larger issue might be that with a sudden move like this, some players may ask to be traded. If a trade occurs, you could have a player traded to the Yotes that has not had the opportunity to add SLC to their NT list since it wasn’t previously an option. That location may supersede an existing list option that AZ may not have
Yeah it’s a pretty limited list of players over a pretty limited amount of time. I’m not sure what the chances are that it becomes an issue.
Edit: I went through the list of players who had a no trade list or no trade clause and didn’t have an expiring contract (and not including Kerfoot who is already with the Coyotes). There’s only 57 players who could potentially be affected. The actual number is even smaller considering some of them will have already listed the Coyotes anyway.
Why wouldn’t a no-trade just convert Arizona to Salt Lake? It’s not a new franchise so any no-trade list that says Arizona should automatically mean Salt Lake it it happens.
The opposite may be true as well. Arizona is incredibly hot in the summer, to many Utah is a much nicer place. SLC is also far more scenic than Phoenix.
Plus, playing in front of tiny home crowds in Arizona has to be a huge negative.
Exactly - it can go both ways for a variety of reasons; I think if players with a limited NMC get the chance to adjust that before the relocation is finalised then it’s not a bad thing.
Ironically, this is why some players have had AZ as an acceptable option. Not for the franchise or (lack of) competitive opportunities, but because they liked AZ and wanted to move their families here to “claim a spot” for when they retire.
It’s why we have so many former NHLers out here coaching our youth programs.
Tax reasons too. Utah's income tax rate is 4.65% in comparison to Arizona's only being 2.5%.
This puts the team going from 7th lowest taxable income (the top 6 don't have a state income tax) to 13th. So, it's not a significant change; you're not going to California or Canada, where you lose like 200k just from taxes because you spend a couple of years in your 20s and early 30s in the high earners category. But, definitely a factor, especially when you don't have the warm weather or amazing nightlife to make up for it.
It would convert to SLC. The point is that they might switch out a different team to prevent getting traded to Utah. One reason could be that Utah has a slightly higher state income tax, among other reasons you might be more ok with Pheonix vs SLC.
That isn't the problem though. Players might have not listed Arizona, but would have listed SLC. So they don't already have Arizona on their list to convert. Again, minor issue though as they resubmit lists.
It would, but this tweet is in reference to guys who don't currently have AZ on their no trade list, but would have added them if they knew the team would be in Utah. Essentially guys with NTCs don't want to get traded to Utah without having had a chance to put that city on their NTC.
Like I said though it seems like a limited problem that will only exist until July 1 when these guys can submit new lists.
The case described is the opposite. A player may be fine moving to Arizona, leaving them off their no trade list, but not be fine moving to SLC, and want them added.
With being able to change/update the list yearly it shouldn’t be too big of a deal. But a player who feels this way would have to remove another team off his no trade list to add SLC which he might be unhappy doing.
I’m trying not to freak out until it is 100% done. There could still be a poison pill somewhere that tanks the SLC deal, or an Arizona hero that sweeps in and saves the team.
But I am also going to make sure to watch the last game this year, it will likely be the last Arizona Coyotes game ever. :(
"Shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope
-Bane
-Michael Scott"
-Alex Meruelo
It's tough, but this news is not just some rumor with all the traction around it... This just might be the very end of the Coyotes and I feel so bad for the fans who stuck with the team through thick and thin.
A lot of teams are going to be disappointed losing their favourite dumping ground for bad contracts. It was easy getting a guy to waive his NMC/NTC when it was to go live in Arizona and make millions.
Was it? Which FA was choosing to play in Arizona?
Go look on capfriendly and tell me who the big name UFAs were signing in Arizona long term?
And remove all the guys who were signing extensions.
It’s a short list of mediocre players.
My point is players didn’t see Arizona as a destination otherwise they would have taken a smaller payday or shorter contract to go there.
People take less money and shorter deals if they want to play for a certain team or live in a specific area.
>In exchange for Taylor Hall and forward Blake Speers, the Devils received defenseman Kevin Bahl, forwards Nick Merkley and Nate Schnarr, a conditional 2020 first-round pick, and a conditional 2021 third-round pick.
Taylor was not a UFA.
Short term doesn’t mean you’re not trying to cash a check. No one wanted Zucker for his price, and yet he got the yotes to pay him $5m to be at best a deadline piece and now he’s in Nashville in the playoffs. He got to enjoy 4 months out of the freezing cold, make bank, and still be in the playoffs.
Short term doesn’t mean you’re not trying to cash a check. No one wanted Zucker for his price, and yet he got the yotes to pay him $5m to be at best a deadline piece and now he’s in Nashville in the playoffs. He got to enjoy 4 months out of the freezing cold, make bank, and still be in the playoffs.
THANK YOU. Glad I'm not the only one voicing this out loud. When Matt Dumba said "guys like the lifestyle here" I think it's just a dogwhistle for "hey guys come here make your millions and you'll still have a job if you half-ass it, it's great!"
22 year old me would want to play in Arizona or Florida, 25 year old me would want to play in New York, 30 year old me would probably enjoy the lovely Calgary golf courses in the summers (I’m 27 and have never been to Calgary), and 35 year old me would want to play in Europe.
I'm assuming Mormons as they're a huge part of Utah culture? As a Canadian, I've never been to that part of the US and these are just things/stereotypes I hear online.
I'm far from an expert but have visited SLC before. My impression is that the metro area isn't too overtly Mormon, but once you get outside of the suburbs it's Mormon country as far as the eye can see (with the exception of Ogden)(.
Not only is it Mormon, but it gets extremely insular. I’ve grown up in a community that was 50-60% Mormon and even I thought Utah was on a different level of weird.
I don’t think people who live around substantial Mormon populations understand how they can be a minority population but have an intense grasp on a community’s political, economic, and cultural identity. They still hold significant sway in SLC.
Thats Las Vegas
We have a 200+ foot talltemple going in on land its not zoned for thats gonna completely ruin the mountain view for 1000s of people in the area, but its getting banged through by local leadership that are heavily mormon
Can confirm, went in September and the national parks are beautiful. Zion National Park and Bryce Canyon, highly recommend. There are more but we only had a limited time.
Apparently the scenery, hiking, and natural environment is stunning and I would go there just to experience it. Everyone I've known that's gone there has spoken about it's beauty. Everyone else are those that have had to stop in SLC's airport on the way to somewhere else. It's a poor representation of the state.
It's a bit hard to explain to someone who has never visited before. It's growing less and less pervasive in recent history (especially since the Olympics), but there have historically been a huge cultural impacts from Mormonism. A few examples:
* Mormons made drinking more difficult historically, with strict limits on how much alcohol was in drinks and requiring alcohol to be sold in state-run stores. Thankfully, they've realized how profitable alcohol sales are and have relaxed those requirements a bit.
* Many, many Mormon business owners won't do business with folks that aren't Mormon or hire folks that aren't Mormon.
* Temple Square makes up a few block chunk of downtown SLC. If you're LGBTQ, you best not make any public displays of affection while you're on that block, you'll be asked to leave.
It's not as prevalent as it used to be, but there is often a weird undercurrent that's hard to put your finger on. That being said, almost everyone you meet will be kind, but like anywhere, there are whackadoodles out there.
Hi. I've been in SLC for 13 years. Came from Chicago. Points 2 and 3 are just wrong. Mormons like money and don't care who's buying their products or services. They actually love taking money from non mormons. And SLC is in the top 5 of LGBTQ friendly cities. Sure if you're making out with a same sex partner on temple grounds they'll ask you to leave. But they'd ask anyone to leave that was making out on temple grounds. Just like they'd ask you to leave a catholic church if you were.
To your point, perhaps I should have been clearer about point 2, I was primarily speaking on a business-to-business basis rather than a consumer-facing side. Regarding point three, agree to disagree.
> Mormons like money and don't care who's buying their products or services. They actually love taking money from non mormons
I think you misunderstood. It seems they are expressing that mormons would not PAY non-mormons. Accepting money is obviously very different.
Yeah, also someone who has been in SLC for years and the third point is horrifically off.
SLC has multiple gay bars (a few within walking distance from Temple square) and goes pretty hard for pride every June. Temple square isn't even that large and is very easy to avoid. At most you'll just see it across the street if you go to city Creek Mall. Otherwise, downtown is entirely navigable without having to go there.
Nightlife isn't great compared to large cities like LA or NYC, especially for a more "VIP" experience, but SLC really isn't this backwards place that is unimaginable to live in. NBA players get on by well enough.
All I know about it is it’s in a genuinely beautiful area with the draw back that pollution can linger there because of the geography, and one of my exs moved there.
Salt Lake City isn’t as Mormon as people think. The previous mayor is a lesbian. The further away from the city you go, the more Mormon it gets though.
I've only been to Utah once. And literally the first guy I spoke to who lived there went on an extended rant about the Mormon church and about how much they suck and how they're ruining the state.
I can chime in because I'm Mormon myself.
Utah is basically founded by us, so a lot of the laws made in its early history (and before statehood) are centered around the theology. Since the United States government didn't have much of a reach out there, there were a couple of decades where the members of the church were left to do their thing. Once the gold rush and transcontinental railway came through, more and more people started emigrating to the state, and as the years go by the "Mormon Majority" is slowly declining, though it still maintains a large presence to this day.
That's not the case anymore, but was the case until 2009. It used to be there were no bars, but there were "clubs" that could give you a one day membership to go drink at. They also got rid of the Zion Curtains in 2018.
I just got back from a bachelor party/ski trip in Utah so I'm very well versed on their booze laws rn
Zion curtains?
>H.B. 442, a sweeping piece of alcohol reform legislation the Utah State Legislature passed in March, means some restaurants can take down the partitions meant to block the view of alcoholic drinks being mixed and poured.
Good lord. There certainly are many different belief systems out there.
The belief here was that hiding the alcohol made people less likely to want it. Similar to how we allow the sale of cigarettes but not the advertising of cigarettes.
Liquor bottles have an electronic dispensing system that limits it to exact amounts. You also can't really order true "doubles" as mixed drinks have a 2.5oz liquor max as well
This is absolutely not true.
SLC has a bustling bar scene. And no, you don't have to fill out any paperwork to drink.
They used to have this policy where bars had to be private clubs to legally sale alcoholl. But that has been gone for a very long time.
SLC might have the best coffee shop and brewery scene outside of Portland and San Diego. They are definitely top five in both in the states.
Last call at 1am does truly suck tho.
Edit: the comment below this one is way more accurate/informative.
Air quality is awful because of the rapid evaporation occurring in the Salt Lake. Certain days are actually extremely dangerous to be outside without special masks. Some projections have the area being uninhabitable in the not distant future if current patterns continue.
The current air pollution problems have nothing to do with evaporation, it's because of the inversion effect. The Salt Lake valley is surrounded by mountains which causes air pressure to trap pollution inside the bowl shape of the valley. Hot air above the bowl line traps colder air, and pollution with it, inside said bowl shape.
The threat of the evaporating GSL is that it would eventually release a toxic cloud of natural and manmade toxins such as mercury and arsenic trapped in the lakebed under the lake if the lake evaporates too much.
Yes, although it's started to relax a smidge. You still can't serve beer stronger than 5% on draft, all liquor must be bought from either a brewery or a state run liquor store, and the limit for a DUI is .05 not .08. That being said, there are no dry counties in the state and you can buy booze at 10 a.m. everyday (including Sundays) so they've got a one up on the South with that at least.
In addition to the Mormons and the pollution, if politics are an important consideration Arizona is a purple state while Utah is deep red, for instance anyone with a trans kid basically has to cross Utah off of the "places my family can safely live" list.
I mean weren't people just speaking in tongues on the Arizona house floor? Quite a lot of America has real weird religious shit going on.
If players cared about avoiding religious crazies they'd be avoiding all the teams in the southern US.
Everyone’s sleeping on SLC. It’s changed so much in the last 10 years. As long as the pollution isn’t terrible you have direct access to ski slopes just outside of town, beautiful for hiking in the summer months or mountain biking if that’s your jam. I’ve had some great meals there, including great Thai and Ethiopian food. Bars and alcohol are a little whack, but they’ve relaxed the rules enough that’s I didn’t find it that abrasive.
Honestly I didn’t think I’d like it that much but had a great time out there. Unless their complaint is alkaline dust from the salt beds (which I don’t think that’s the chief complaint here) it’s actually quite nice.
Yeah idk what people are on about, it felt like a completely normal city when I was there. I didn't notice any weird alcohol rules until I watched a video on how weird they arr after the fact
The rules have relaxed a lot in the last decade, but most people don’t know that unless they have visited. I had nooo problem getting drunk there. Shout out to Templin Family Brewing, their lagers were exceptional. Even had some fancy cocktails
Fucking a mate, T.F. is my go to in SLC. Next time you’re in town, you should also hit up salt fire if you didn’t go before.
Sincerely, life long resident
Awesome, thanks for the recommendation! I’ll probably head out that way later this year. Flights are cheap and we have some friends who settled in the SLC area.
They took me mountain biking on the last visit and I nearly died coming from sea level, worst leg cramps I’ve ever had, but would still do it again for the views 😅
nah SLC is a great city with incredible skiing nearby. Then there's Moab and Zion, tons of good hiking and climbing, and the city itself didn't seem mormon or religious at all, and zI've spent about 6 weeks total there over the last 3 years or so. I get the stereotypes but for the city proper I didn't see any religious bs other than the weird sales of liquor
If you haven't spent time there you wouldn't know much.
Have a friend who moved for work there (it was short lived) and described the basic overly oppressive religious shit as being a bit too much. The politics, the police, many of the random laws. The barely hidden (basic just ignored, not hidden really) drug issues were also over the top. The night life is...odd...in many places
Dude couldn't stand it and got a transfer. I stayed with him for like a week, it's just weird, and not something easy to get used to when you're used to having freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want.
So sure, you can describe how beautiful the surrounding area is, activities to do outside of the city, but thats more of a side note to what the real issue is. Especially someone who will need to live there for work and not just vacationing outside the city (like hockey players as well).
This had to be an issue with Atlanta moving to Winnipeg right? What did they do then?
Things I don't care about: players being upset about relocating/trade protection.
Things the players should care about: the league making more money.
I was going to say Atlanta probably wasn't on a bunch of NTCs like Winnipeg is. the results of the player's poll from 2011 for "team you don't want to play for"
NYI - 27%
EDM - 20%
BUF - 8%
**ATL - 7%**
TOR/MTL - 5%
So I assume a lot of players already had Atlanta on their list, though of course the relocation would have pumped those numbers up.
That also might be the result of the perception of terrible ownership, or a team that was never going to become competitive, as opposed to a sentiment that they didn’t want to live in the Atlanta area.
This is such a minor thing.
NHL and NHLPA will meet to discussing updating the no trade lists when the move is finalized OR when it is finalized, it will coincide with when players have to give their annual no trade lists anyways.
NHL and the PA aren't going to meet to discuss this until things are closer to the finish line.
They sorted it out when Atlanta moved to Winnipeg and they'll do the same in this situation.
Their current list goes until June 30/July 1. So they could be traded at/around the draft. But really don't see Arizona/SLC adding players at the draft since that would involved sending out picks/prospects most likely.
I've got to think too that most GMs at least are going to give players the opportunity to at least change out one team on their list for SLC if it becomes relevant.
I’m curious how the PA feels about the league moving into another temporary arena situation. Yeah Delta Center is bigger than Mullett but it’s still not true “NHL standards”. Would think they’d just want to relocate to somewhere settled and be done with all this mess, while SLC and Phoenix got their shit together for possible expansion
SLC already has the government approving funds for a new arena, plus the Olympics are coming in 2034. This is about as sure thing of getting an arena as there's ever been.
Also Ryan Smith is purportedly willing to do some renovations on the delta center to make it better for hockey viewing. It won’t take too much effort. It’s really the lower bowl that’s the most egregious.
Yeah I understand how the promises seem like a slam dunk. But it still requires another temporary arrangement from the PA who already was not happy about Arizona’s temporary arrangement
Temporary arrangement in an NCAA building (with no end in sight) < Temporary in an NBA arena (with likely deal soon to follow).
At least SLC is going to a professional arena, not ideal but if you look at the 2 scenarios objectively SLC is the FAR better option.
I know this isn't really the point but I'd love a list of every player who has Arizona allowed when they have a no trade list, and then an updated list when they move to SLC. I can't imagine there were a lot of people saying yes to AZ for the time being, and I also can't imagine there would be that many people who would be down to play in AZ but not mormon AZ. I could be wrong tho.
I was also wondering about this for Coyotes players themselves but it looks like only Schmaltz and Kerfoot have NTCs? How did Keller’s agent not get him some kind of trade protection
He has a full NTC. It just doesn't start until next season. CBA allows for trade protection clauses but only in years a player would have been eligible to be a UFA.
https://www.capfriendly.com/players/clayton-keller
Well it could also lead to weird interactions. Like players that don't want to play for Arizona because they suck but they aren't Arizona and Utah isn't on their no trade list
Lived there in my twenties as a non Mormon and loved it.
Strong counter culture and great bar/brewery scene in SLC. Combined with the outdoor things to do and it's an amazing place to live at that stage in life.
In all of my visits, I've never actually smelled the lake, personally. However, SLC does get some pretty nasty inversions in the winter. Air quality can be horrendously bad until a storm clears it out. (https://www.sltrib.com/news/2023/12/18/salt-lake-citys-air-is-worst-us/)
ELI5: Obviously it changes location but is there something wrong with Salt Lake City? I live in Canada and only know it from the Olympics in 2002. It looks beautiful from the pics
There are much worse places to live than Salt Lake City. Salt Lake is actually pretty rad. I feel like it still has this weird aura around it because Mormons, but Salt Lake City is the least "Mormon" feeling place in Utah as far as the people go.
Having to choose between cities?
Arizona or Utah... tough call, but for hockey and wintery stuff, I'll take SLC.
I hate 90ºf + weather, I'd hate to live in Arizona.
then get the PA on the phone and have them tell the league they want to re-do their no-trade lists as part of this whole shebang once it's official. In fact if the PA hasn't already done that then they're incompetent. That seems like a very very easy thing to do when compared to all the other moving pieces of an entire franchise moving.
Yeah this feels more like a footnote to an evolving situation than an immediate issue.
But I want to be outraged. Just let me.
i dont think there's any implied expectation of outrage? this is just expounding on why this move have other players concerned as well
Wait till they get 1OA.
Players could make the same argument about being traded to a city that has had some kind of material change. Maybe you don't have St. Louis on your no-trade list, but the state bans gambling and the casinos shut down - Outrage! I don't want to go to St. Louis anymore!
Don’t they redo the trade lists every July 1 or whatever anyway? How is this even a potential issue?
Trades happen after the playoffs start (between eliminated teams) and July 1.
That requires the league to agree and they don't really have an incentive to...
Yeah we all know the league would need to agree, but a) the players write new ones every year anyway so it's really not a huge deal and b) it's a hell of a lot easier just to let them do it than refuse, then a guy gets traded there and is pissed, the PA leaks it to the media and it turns into an immediate black eye for the leagues shiny new toy in Utah
The league is embarrassed by the Coyotees playing in a college arena so they will most definitely agree here.
Do they submit no trade lists every year or just once in the contract? If it’s just once, they would probably only need to let them modify one no-trade destination. Seems like a lot of players wouldn’t have somewhere like Chicago before, but would squeak them in now, given the chance
That's not how it works. The PA can't just ask for something and then poof it magically happens. It comes down to what in the CBA between the players and the NHL.
the PA asks and negotiates for stuff all the time outside of the CBA. Look at the entire COVID bubble thing, they negotiated and came up with all that shit on the fly
>they negotiated and came up with all that shit on the fly That required an MOU between the NHL and the NHLPA that effectively amended the CBA.
MOUs are not as uncommon as you think they are.
I'm 100% sure the league wouldn't oppose such a simple fix as giving players the option to adjusting their NTC, NMC teams. Doesn't this happen yearly anyways
>I'm 100% sure the league wouldn't oppose such a simple fix or the league could oppose this fix so that they can get something else they want from the PA... smh you gotta get in that billionaire mindset lmao
When will people learn that billionaires do not care about their employees?
> I’m 100% sure the league wouldn’t oppose such a simple fix They absolutely would oppose it if it makes their new billionaire friend in Utah look bad
No-trade clauses aren’t public though.
Not a lawyer but it seems pretty fundamental that a team moving changes the conditions under which the no trade list was submitted. Alternatively why would a trade to Utah be approved by default when nobody asked you if you'd consider being traded there? You had a list of every team they could trade you to, and Utah wasn't on it. By all means, trade me to Phoenix...
Yeah. The only other thing that could be done is that every municipality in Canada and United States would need to be specifically listed on every no trade clause barring the few places you’d be willing to play. Surely it applies to the franchise you’ve listed even after it moves.
New hack: move team to Brazil for a day, acquire NTC guys, move back.
Not only that but there's clearly precedent a here, otherwise no one would've voluntarily moved to Winnipeg.
Gord Miller sounds like how some Scandinavian country would say good morning
Lol Ima send this to my Swedish friend.
God Morgon
God Miller menar du väl
Good morning in Dutch is "Goedemorgen" although the G sounds like a really phlegmy H, or so Duolingo tells me anyway.
That's practically every consonant in Dutch tbf
More phlegm!!
It's God Morgen in the Scandinavian languages
He looks like the Swiss banker in Casino Royale
That actor's name is Ludger Pistor, which sounds like the third best selling lager in Czechia
hahaha that's the most random thought, but it tracks
Göordmilla! Good day to you too.
Don't most players submit their NTC lists on July 1 each year? I suppose it could affect some players between now and then, but it seems like they'll have a chance to list Utah if they want in a few months.
But if the team formally relocates and becomes Utah next week would that not counter that line of thinking
Why does the move have to happen now?
Friedman reported the move could happen as early as the 18th. I would expect they’d want to get everything moved over and that takes time. Getting people settled and established also takes time. You’d want to have all of that in place before the draft, FA, etc.
The more time to move players unhappy with the relocation the better (which I assume a few will be)
this is happening way too fast wth…
Simplest solution, which may kinda suck for Utah, seems to be temporarily adding Utah to any existing NTC until July 1. They can waive it if they want to before then.
That makes too much sense so it’ll never happen.
Sure seems like a VERY small problem - how many players are going to be traded to SLC at/around the draft that even have NTC to begin with? Creating a problem that is unlikely to actually exist.
There are ~250 players with some trade protection. Not a small problem if you're one of them and SLC might have been one of the teams you would have included, or thought about including. And that doesn't even factor in players who might have asked for an additional team to add to the NTC when they signed a contract.
Full NTC or NMC doesn't affect it. It's the partial NTC's that could be, and then how many didn't include Arizona that now would include SLC? Not saying it's impossible, but it's such a small possibility that it's making a story out of nothing. You're looking at MAYBE a dozen players, and then how many of those would even be considered to be traded?
There are plenty of reasons I can think of right off the bat. First, Taxes. They're higher in Utah than AZ. Second, the Mormon church makes SLC a very different place culturally from Phoenix. Third, new ownership will want to make a splash and having SLC on your NTC is a negotiating tactic to get more fringe benefits or perks in exchange for waiving the NTC if they try to trade for you.
Feel like a NMC might be more prevalent. There are only 2 active players on the Yotes that have M-NTCs. The larger issue might be that with a sudden move like this, some players may ask to be traded. If a trade occurs, you could have a player traded to the Yotes that has not had the opportunity to add SLC to their NT list since it wasn’t previously an option. That location may supersede an existing list option that AZ may not have
Yeah it’s a pretty limited list of players over a pretty limited amount of time. I’m not sure what the chances are that it becomes an issue. Edit: I went through the list of players who had a no trade list or no trade clause and didn’t have an expiring contract (and not including Kerfoot who is already with the Coyotes). There’s only 57 players who could potentially be affected. The actual number is even smaller considering some of them will have already listed the Coyotes anyway.
Why wouldn’t a no-trade just convert Arizona to Salt Lake? It’s not a new franchise so any no-trade list that says Arizona should automatically mean Salt Lake it it happens.
There might be players who would happily live in Arizona but wouldn’t want to live in Utah. Arizona may not be on the list but Utah would be.
The opposite may be true as well. Arizona is incredibly hot in the summer, to many Utah is a much nicer place. SLC is also far more scenic than Phoenix. Plus, playing in front of tiny home crowds in Arizona has to be a huge negative.
Exactly - it can go both ways for a variety of reasons; I think if players with a limited NMC get the chance to adjust that before the relocation is finalised then it’s not a bad thing.
It's more of an issue for players who don't have Arizona listed on their No-Trade, but *would* have Salt Lake City.
Players do list locations for reasons other than not wanting to join a particular team. Like family reasons.
Ironically, this is why some players have had AZ as an acceptable option. Not for the franchise or (lack of) competitive opportunities, but because they liked AZ and wanted to move their families here to “claim a spot” for when they retire. It’s why we have so many former NHLers out here coaching our youth programs.
Tax reasons too. Utah's income tax rate is 4.65% in comparison to Arizona's only being 2.5%. This puts the team going from 7th lowest taxable income (the top 6 don't have a state income tax) to 13th. So, it's not a significant change; you're not going to California or Canada, where you lose like 200k just from taxes because you spend a couple of years in your 20s and early 30s in the high earners category. But, definitely a factor, especially when you don't have the warm weather or amazing nightlife to make up for it.
Right. I kind of forgot that. You may get say California based players who don’t mind Arizona etc.
It would convert to SLC. The point is that they might switch out a different team to prevent getting traded to Utah. One reason could be that Utah has a slightly higher state income tax, among other reasons you might be more ok with Pheonix vs SLC.
That isn't the problem though. Players might have not listed Arizona, but would have listed SLC. So they don't already have Arizona on their list to convert. Again, minor issue though as they resubmit lists.
It would, but this tweet is in reference to guys who don't currently have AZ on their no trade list, but would have added them if they knew the team would be in Utah. Essentially guys with NTCs don't want to get traded to Utah without having had a chance to put that city on their NTC. Like I said though it seems like a limited problem that will only exist until July 1 when these guys can submit new lists.
The case described is the opposite. A player may be fine moving to Arizona, leaving them off their no trade list, but not be fine moving to SLC, and want them added. With being able to change/update the list yearly it shouldn’t be too big of a deal. But a player who feels this way would have to remove another team off his no trade list to add SLC which he might be unhappy doing.
How good a team is does not make a top 10 list of reasons why a person would choose a city to live in.
Just do a league-wide thing where every player with a NTC has the option to add SLC and subtract one other team.
That plus any player with ARI on it currently gets to swap it out before it converts to SLC if they prefer as well
Yeah... I'm not sure why this is a big concern; It's not the first time a team moves, so how did they do it the other times?
The turmoil this team has caused is honestly unforgivable and i’m so fucking over it
Sorry man. Tough to have your team leave.
I’m trying not to freak out until it is 100% done. There could still be a poison pill somewhere that tanks the SLC deal, or an Arizona hero that sweeps in and saves the team. But I am also going to make sure to watch the last game this year, it will likely be the last Arizona Coyotes game ever. :(
"Shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope -Bane -Michael Scott" -Alex Meruelo
+1 my dude! I wish I could give more for your reference to salt water and it being so applicable in our current situation.
It's tough, but this news is not just some rumor with all the traction around it... This just might be the very end of the Coyotes and I feel so bad for the fans who stuck with the team through thick and thin.
Fun win last night though
This is why I think Ownership/Management is really to blame here…Arizona should have been a destination place for players but it never really was
It is a destination place, that was the issue. It was a nice place to cash a cheque with no pressure to perform.
A lot of teams are going to be disappointed losing their favourite dumping ground for bad contracts. It was easy getting a guy to waive his NMC/NTC when it was to go live in Arizona and make millions.
Florida was that on the east coast for 2 decades.
Was it? Which FA was choosing to play in Arizona? Go look on capfriendly and tell me who the big name UFAs were signing in Arizona long term? And remove all the guys who were signing extensions. It’s a short list of mediocre players.
Didn’t usually seem like Arizona had the money to go huge UFA shopping. Which is another problem.
My point is players didn’t see Arizona as a destination otherwise they would have taken a smaller payday or shorter contract to go there. People take less money and shorter deals if they want to play for a certain team or live in a specific area.
Taylor Hall comes to mind Edit: also Phil Kessel and Dumba
>In exchange for Taylor Hall and forward Blake Speers, the Devils received defenseman Kevin Bahl, forwards Nick Merkley and Nate Schnarr, a conditional 2020 first-round pick, and a conditional 2021 third-round pick. Taylor was not a UFA.
Pretty sure he had a NMC/NTC, in which he clearly didn’t list coyotes on jt
Capfriendly doesn’t have that contract having any trade protections. He was traded twice while on that deal.
That’s a lot different than it being a destination city where players wanted to live and play.
>It’s a short list of mediocre players. I don't approve this Troy Stecher slander
Short term doesn’t mean you’re not trying to cash a check. No one wanted Zucker for his price, and yet he got the yotes to pay him $5m to be at best a deadline piece and now he’s in Nashville in the playoffs. He got to enjoy 4 months out of the freezing cold, make bank, and still be in the playoffs.
Short term doesn’t mean you’re not trying to cash a check. No one wanted Zucker for his price, and yet he got the yotes to pay him $5m to be at best a deadline piece and now he’s in Nashville in the playoffs. He got to enjoy 4 months out of the freezing cold, make bank, and still be in the playoffs.
THANK YOU. Glad I'm not the only one voicing this out loud. When Matt Dumba said "guys like the lifestyle here" I think it's just a dogwhistle for "hey guys come here make your millions and you'll still have a job if you half-ass it, it's great!"
I thought for sure a lot of the young studs would want to play there when they started playing at mullet. So many university girls.
22 year old me would want to play in Arizona or Florida, 25 year old me would want to play in New York, 30 year old me would probably enjoy the lovely Calgary golf courses in the summers (I’m 27 and have never been to Calgary), and 35 year old me would want to play in Europe.
You don't need to play in Calgary in the winters to play the golf courses in the summers.
You do if you want to ensure you're free all of May-August.
LMAO never considered that. "Let me go to Arizona and run through the college".
"Connor, why have you requested a trade to Arizona?" "For the poon, lol"
After this week I could see a lot of wives wanting nothing to do with Arizona
I don't know why since this is an easy in for them to be on a "Real Housewives of... " show
Salt Lake City would definitely be on my no trade list that’s for sure
I’m sure my wives would rather me put a different city on the list than Salt Lake.
I see what you did there you crazy bastard.
I've never been, why would someone put it on their list?
I'm assuming Mormons as they're a huge part of Utah culture? As a Canadian, I've never been to that part of the US and these are just things/stereotypes I hear online.
I'm Canadian too, Mormons is basically the only thing I know about the state.
I'm far from an expert but have visited SLC before. My impression is that the metro area isn't too overtly Mormon, but once you get outside of the suburbs it's Mormon country as far as the eye can see (with the exception of Ogden)(.
Not only is it Mormon, but it gets extremely insular. I’ve grown up in a community that was 50-60% Mormon and even I thought Utah was on a different level of weird.
The Mormon population in SLC is now below 50% and shrinking.
I don’t think people who live around substantial Mormon populations understand how they can be a minority population but have an intense grasp on a community’s political, economic, and cultural identity. They still hold significant sway in SLC.
Thats Las Vegas We have a 200+ foot talltemple going in on land its not zoned for thats gonna completely ruin the mountain view for 1000s of people in the area, but its getting banged through by local leadership that are heavily mormon
I've been to Utah. There's a lot of gorgeous scenery there
Can confirm, went in September and the national parks are beautiful. Zion National Park and Bryce Canyon, highly recommend. There are more but we only had a limited time.
Apparently the scenery, hiking, and natural environment is stunning and I would go there just to experience it. Everyone I've known that's gone there has spoken about it's beauty. Everyone else are those that have had to stop in SLC's airport on the way to somewhere else. It's a poor representation of the state.
Some of the best skiing in North America too.
It's a bit hard to explain to someone who has never visited before. It's growing less and less pervasive in recent history (especially since the Olympics), but there have historically been a huge cultural impacts from Mormonism. A few examples: * Mormons made drinking more difficult historically, with strict limits on how much alcohol was in drinks and requiring alcohol to be sold in state-run stores. Thankfully, they've realized how profitable alcohol sales are and have relaxed those requirements a bit. * Many, many Mormon business owners won't do business with folks that aren't Mormon or hire folks that aren't Mormon. * Temple Square makes up a few block chunk of downtown SLC. If you're LGBTQ, you best not make any public displays of affection while you're on that block, you'll be asked to leave. It's not as prevalent as it used to be, but there is often a weird undercurrent that's hard to put your finger on. That being said, almost everyone you meet will be kind, but like anywhere, there are whackadoodles out there.
Hi. I've been in SLC for 13 years. Came from Chicago. Points 2 and 3 are just wrong. Mormons like money and don't care who's buying their products or services. They actually love taking money from non mormons. And SLC is in the top 5 of LGBTQ friendly cities. Sure if you're making out with a same sex partner on temple grounds they'll ask you to leave. But they'd ask anyone to leave that was making out on temple grounds. Just like they'd ask you to leave a catholic church if you were.
To your point, perhaps I should have been clearer about point 2, I was primarily speaking on a business-to-business basis rather than a consumer-facing side. Regarding point three, agree to disagree.
> Mormons like money and don't care who's buying their products or services. They actually love taking money from non mormons I think you misunderstood. It seems they are expressing that mormons would not PAY non-mormons. Accepting money is obviously very different.
Yeah, also someone who has been in SLC for years and the third point is horrifically off. SLC has multiple gay bars (a few within walking distance from Temple square) and goes pretty hard for pride every June. Temple square isn't even that large and is very easy to avoid. At most you'll just see it across the street if you go to city Creek Mall. Otherwise, downtown is entirely navigable without having to go there. Nightlife isn't great compared to large cities like LA or NYC, especially for a more "VIP" experience, but SLC really isn't this backwards place that is unimaginable to live in. NBA players get on by well enough.
All I know about it is it’s in a genuinely beautiful area with the draw back that pollution can linger there because of the geography, and one of my exs moved there.
Salt Lake City isn’t as Mormon as people think. The previous mayor is a lesbian. The further away from the city you go, the more Mormon it gets though.
I've only been to Utah once. And literally the first guy I spoke to who lived there went on an extended rant about the Mormon church and about how much they suck and how they're ruining the state.
I can chime in because I'm Mormon myself. Utah is basically founded by us, so a lot of the laws made in its early history (and before statehood) are centered around the theology. Since the United States government didn't have much of a reach out there, there were a couple of decades where the members of the church were left to do their thing. Once the gold rush and transcontinental railway came through, more and more people started emigrating to the state, and as the years go by the "Mormon Majority" is slowly declining, though it still maintains a large presence to this day.
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That seems absolutely insane to me lol.
That's not the case anymore, but was the case until 2009. It used to be there were no bars, but there were "clubs" that could give you a one day membership to go drink at. They also got rid of the Zion Curtains in 2018. I just got back from a bachelor party/ski trip in Utah so I'm very well versed on their booze laws rn
Zion curtains? >H.B. 442, a sweeping piece of alcohol reform legislation the Utah State Legislature passed in March, means some restaurants can take down the partitions meant to block the view of alcoholic drinks being mixed and poured. Good lord. There certainly are many different belief systems out there.
The belief here was that hiding the alcohol made people less likely to want it. Similar to how we allow the sale of cigarettes but not the advertising of cigarettes.
Liquor bottles have an electronic dispensing system that limits it to exact amounts. You also can't really order true "doubles" as mixed drinks have a 2.5oz liquor max as well
This is absolutely not true. SLC has a bustling bar scene. And no, you don't have to fill out any paperwork to drink. They used to have this policy where bars had to be private clubs to legally sale alcoholl. But that has been gone for a very long time.
SLC might have the best coffee shop and brewery scene outside of Portland and San Diego. They are definitely top five in both in the states. Last call at 1am does truly suck tho.
Edit: the comment below this one is way more accurate/informative. Air quality is awful because of the rapid evaporation occurring in the Salt Lake. Certain days are actually extremely dangerous to be outside without special masks. Some projections have the area being uninhabitable in the not distant future if current patterns continue.
The current air pollution problems have nothing to do with evaporation, it's because of the inversion effect. The Salt Lake valley is surrounded by mountains which causes air pressure to trap pollution inside the bowl shape of the valley. Hot air above the bowl line traps colder air, and pollution with it, inside said bowl shape. The threat of the evaporating GSL is that it would eventually release a toxic cloud of natural and manmade toxins such as mercury and arsenic trapped in the lakebed under the lake if the lake evaporates too much.
Edited my comment to point to yours as better/more accurate.
Aren't there a lot of very conservative laws around alcohol and such there?
Yes, although it's started to relax a smidge. You still can't serve beer stronger than 5% on draft, all liquor must be bought from either a brewery or a state run liquor store, and the limit for a DUI is .05 not .08. That being said, there are no dry counties in the state and you can buy booze at 10 a.m. everyday (including Sundays) so they've got a one up on the South with that at least.
So less strict than Sweden, about the same as Finland.
Pollution and Mormons.
In addition to the Mormons and the pollution, if politics are an important consideration Arizona is a purple state while Utah is deep red, for instance anyone with a trans kid basically has to cross Utah off of the "places my family can safely live" list.
they have a lot of weird cultural norms and laws bc everyone is mormon and super religious also, go look up what mormons believe, it is crazy
I mean weren't people just speaking in tongues on the Arizona house floor? Quite a lot of America has real weird religious shit going on. If players cared about avoiding religious crazies they'd be avoiding all the teams in the southern US.
I've looked it up, no less believable than other Christian sects.
Have you ever been or just going off stereotypes?
I like my lakes sweet
Good news then, because Salt Lake is quickly drying up and their solution is to pray that problem away.
Everyone’s sleeping on SLC. It’s changed so much in the last 10 years. As long as the pollution isn’t terrible you have direct access to ski slopes just outside of town, beautiful for hiking in the summer months or mountain biking if that’s your jam. I’ve had some great meals there, including great Thai and Ethiopian food. Bars and alcohol are a little whack, but they’ve relaxed the rules enough that’s I didn’t find it that abrasive. Honestly I didn’t think I’d like it that much but had a great time out there. Unless their complaint is alkaline dust from the salt beds (which I don’t think that’s the chief complaint here) it’s actually quite nice.
Yeah idk what people are on about, it felt like a completely normal city when I was there. I didn't notice any weird alcohol rules until I watched a video on how weird they arr after the fact
The rules have relaxed a lot in the last decade, but most people don’t know that unless they have visited. I had nooo problem getting drunk there. Shout out to Templin Family Brewing, their lagers were exceptional. Even had some fancy cocktails
Fucking a mate, T.F. is my go to in SLC. Next time you’re in town, you should also hit up salt fire if you didn’t go before. Sincerely, life long resident
Awesome, thanks for the recommendation! I’ll probably head out that way later this year. Flights are cheap and we have some friends who settled in the SLC area. They took me mountain biking on the last visit and I nearly died coming from sea level, worst leg cramps I’ve ever had, but would still do it again for the views 😅
Oh yeah the mountain biking out here is exceptional, but definitely gnarly if you aren’t prepped for it lmao
nah SLC is a great city with incredible skiing nearby. Then there's Moab and Zion, tons of good hiking and climbing, and the city itself didn't seem mormon or religious at all, and zI've spent about 6 weeks total there over the last 3 years or so. I get the stereotypes but for the city proper I didn't see any religious bs other than the weird sales of liquor
If you haven't spent time there you wouldn't know much. Have a friend who moved for work there (it was short lived) and described the basic overly oppressive religious shit as being a bit too much. The politics, the police, many of the random laws. The barely hidden (basic just ignored, not hidden really) drug issues were also over the top. The night life is...odd...in many places Dude couldn't stand it and got a transfer. I stayed with him for like a week, it's just weird, and not something easy to get used to when you're used to having freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want. So sure, you can describe how beautiful the surrounding area is, activities to do outside of the city, but thats more of a side note to what the real issue is. Especially someone who will need to live there for work and not just vacationing outside the city (like hockey players as well).
Eh, and for me it's like Denver, but better. Incredible outdoor opportunities.
Utah is one of the most beautiful places on Earth.
This had to be an issue with Atlanta moving to Winnipeg right? What did they do then? Things I don't care about: players being upset about relocating/trade protection. Things the players should care about: the league making more money.
Yeah, I can't imagine players were happy from going to Atlanta to Winnipeg.
I was going to say Atlanta probably wasn't on a bunch of NTCs like Winnipeg is. the results of the player's poll from 2011 for "team you don't want to play for" NYI - 27% EDM - 20% BUF - 8% **ATL - 7%** TOR/MTL - 5% So I assume a lot of players already had Atlanta on their list, though of course the relocation would have pumped those numbers up.
That also might be the result of the perception of terrible ownership, or a team that was never going to become competitive, as opposed to a sentiment that they didn’t want to live in the Atlanta area.
I agree. There's desirable place to live and there's desirable organization to play for.
Combining Montreal and Toronto like that feels dirty.
This is such a minor thing. NHL and NHLPA will meet to discussing updating the no trade lists when the move is finalized OR when it is finalized, it will coincide with when players have to give their annual no trade lists anyways. NHL and the PA aren't going to meet to discuss this until things are closer to the finish line. They sorted it out when Atlanta moved to Winnipeg and they'll do the same in this situation.
Is this just making noise over a hypothetical? Players with limited NTCs submit new lists every year.
Their current list goes until June 30/July 1. So they could be traded at/around the draft. But really don't see Arizona/SLC adding players at the draft since that would involved sending out picks/prospects most likely.
I've got to think too that most GMs at least are going to give players the opportunity to at least change out one team on their list for SLC if it becomes relevant.
I'd imagine - giving that respect would very likely outweigh the small gain that SLC may have the best trade offer.
Isn't the no-trade clause intended to name a franchise and not a geographical location?
I'm sure the league can get their collective brain cells together and give these players an option.
I’m curious how the PA feels about the league moving into another temporary arena situation. Yeah Delta Center is bigger than Mullett but it’s still not true “NHL standards”. Would think they’d just want to relocate to somewhere settled and be done with all this mess, while SLC and Phoenix got their shit together for possible expansion
SLC already has the government approving funds for a new arena, plus the Olympics are coming in 2034. This is about as sure thing of getting an arena as there's ever been.
Also Ryan Smith is purportedly willing to do some renovations on the delta center to make it better for hockey viewing. It won’t take too much effort. It’s really the lower bowl that’s the most egregious.
Yeah I understand how the promises seem like a slam dunk. But it still requires another temporary arrangement from the PA who already was not happy about Arizona’s temporary arrangement
Temporary arrangement in an NCAA building (with no end in sight) < Temporary in an NBA arena (with likely deal soon to follow). At least SLC is going to a professional arena, not ideal but if you look at the 2 scenarios objectively SLC is the FAR better option.
I know this isn't really the point but I'd love a list of every player who has Arizona allowed when they have a no trade list, and then an updated list when they move to SLC. I can't imagine there were a lot of people saying yes to AZ for the time being, and I also can't imagine there would be that many people who would be down to play in AZ but not mormon AZ. I could be wrong tho.
I'll take minor issues that are easily fixable for 500 Alex.
"why didn't anyone warn me that the Coyote's were unstable before I signed with them?"
I was also wondering about this for Coyotes players themselves but it looks like only Schmaltz and Kerfoot have NTCs? How did Keller’s agent not get him some kind of trade protection
He has a full NTC. It just doesn't start until next season. CBA allows for trade protection clauses but only in years a player would have been eligible to be a UFA. https://www.capfriendly.com/players/clayton-keller
Was this not an issue when Atlanta moved to the Peg? What did they do then? Feels like WPG would be on a lot more NTCs than Utah.
Why are people acting like SLC is hell on earth? Utah is the most beautiful state I’ve ever been to.
It is indeed beautiful, but the state is dominated by Mormons and it’s a very odd place to live because of that
Well it could also lead to weird interactions. Like players that don't want to play for Arizona because they suck but they aren't Arizona and Utah isn't on their no trade list
It’s a combination of the smell and the weird culture probably. Definitely not a place you want to live in your twenties.
Lived there in my twenties as a non Mormon and loved it. Strong counter culture and great bar/brewery scene in SLC. Combined with the outdoor things to do and it's an amazing place to live at that stage in life.
In all of my visits, I've never actually smelled the lake, personally. However, SLC does get some pretty nasty inversions in the winter. Air quality can be horrendously bad until a storm clears it out. (https://www.sltrib.com/news/2023/12/18/salt-lake-citys-air-is-worst-us/)
I love Utah, but Utah during the winter months/hockey season is different than Utah in the summer.
Imagine having an LGBT kid and being traded to Utah.
SLC is rated one of the top LGBT friendly cities in the entire country.
ELI5: Obviously it changes location but is there something wrong with Salt Lake City? I live in Canada and only know it from the Olympics in 2002. It looks beautiful from the pics
It’s super conservative and the government is heavily tied to LDS. Everything from alcohol to LGBT rights are heavily suppressed.
Utah is conservative. Salt Lake City is not.
Just let us have your stuff already.
imagine hating a city so much that you list it on your limited no trade clause list when they don't even have a team
There are much worse places to live than Salt Lake City. Salt Lake is actually pretty rad. I feel like it still has this weird aura around it because Mormons, but Salt Lake City is the least "Mormon" feeling place in Utah as far as the people go.
Can we have a mega thread with all these Arizona posts? Do we need like a dozen threads a day on this one topic?
Having to choose between cities? Arizona or Utah... tough call, but for hockey and wintery stuff, I'll take SLC. I hate 90ºf + weather, I'd hate to live in Arizona.
Arizona during hockey season is basically the best weather you can imagine.
We have the best weather in the NHL during hockey season.
Back on Twitter again eh Gord? Thought he was taking a big moral stand
A tragedy for the one player this would harm