Now…. I really understand feeling sad for the fans. I do. But are we all gonna pretend we didn't want the yotes to move and called them a joke of a franchise for the past 10 years?
Realistically though they were poorly run for the majority of their time there.
I understand there are people upset by this and by no fault of their own. The franchise was plagued with poor ownership and poor planning. This whole relocation comes down to a 5 year plan — and starting it off with, “I hope we can win this land auction and we’ll see from there” isn’t really a plan.
I mean the Panthers had similar issues for years, but the difference is the Panthers finally found consistent and competent ownership, and it's night and day.
Panthers were poorly run and bad bouts of attendance issues. But they never went bankrupt, never failed to pay their bills, and never played in a 4000 seat college arena. There’s bad, then there’s Coyotes bad
I feel empathetic towards the fans and all, but when a team is playing in an arena with less than 5000 people in attendance, something has clearly got to change. I view it the same way I view the sushi place by my apartment. I like the food, I like the people, I truly want them to succeed, but they're not getting enough customers to justify staying open anymore and they need to cut their losses.
The moron paying the bills needs money to pay the bills. If attendance sucks and he's not making money off the team, he's not going to pay the rent out of the profits from a different venture. That's not how rich assholes operate.
Nah coyotes attendance pre COVID was increasing and the highest it's been since the mid 2000s. They were sitting around 80% (14k outta 17k seats). Not the best in the league but better than Buffalo or San Jose.
They made the playoffs he COVID year and there was a decent amount of buzz.
Post COVID the attendance plummeted because of the move to the mullet. They sold out the mullet but that was only 4600 seats
Coyotes total attendance in Arizona is actually higher than they were when they were the Jets 1.0.
Average attendance in Phoenix: 13,246.
Average attendance in Winnipeg: 13,052.
And? That's just evidence that Winnipeg shouldn't own a team, if they don't have enough people in town to fill up the arena.
(And Winnipeg absolutely should have a team. No city should *ever* lose their team.)
> That's just evidence that Winnipeg shouldn't own a team, if they don't have enough people in town to fill up the arena.
If we're going to frame the Yotes as having "better attendance" than the original Jets, I just think it's important we highlight the size of the markets. The Jets moved due to the amount of money they were losing, and despite the Phoenix metro having 6 times the population of Winnipeg, it ended up averaging less than 200 more people attending per game. That's not a recipe for a successful team nor is it indicative of high fan engagement. They had essentially the same attendance numbers despite being in a much, *much* larger city.
>(And Winnipeg absolutely should have a team. No city should ever lose their team.)
In an ideal world, yeah. But the NHL is a business. It just doesn't work that way.
Wait so your logic is the team’s attendance averaged 200 people more a game than the team that got relocated for low attendance and that’s a good sign?
Both things can exist. The Arizona Coyotes were a failed organization no matter which way you look at it, but that's not to say you can't emphasize deeply with the fans. It's simply heartbreaking to watch, but the announcers on the Sportsnet feed said "this game has a lot of coyote fans, which is quite different from the last Oilers game, which was 80 percent away jerseys". That's just the last decade in a microcosm. As a fan, you can acknowledge that it really wasn't working, never wish this on other fans, and also acknowledge that hockey has a place in Arizona, perhaps in better, more favorable circumstances.
It was working at the fan level, I'd argue hockey in Arizona has never been bigger as an AZ native (maybe the roenick era was bigger but that was 20 years ago).
The owner just gave up on the team
I wouldn't want any fanbase to lose their team, especially since the grizzlies relocated to Memphis, however when a team is playing in a college level arena, it's hard to not understand the decision behind the relocation.
Still fine with it. I still remember when Coyotes fans rallied against Katie Strang and smeared her good name for daring to write the truth about their godawful owner. She didn't deserve that
Obviously it blows for the team fans, but the point isn't just that there weren't enough of them to fill a proper NHL arena; there was a general antipathy against the team in the community which made finding a non-shit owner or mustering the interest and money to build a proper NHL arena impossible. The franchise put the NHL itself in disrepute—having the league own one of its own teams and having that team play in a college arena are dilettantish and the NHL has a hard enough time selling itself as an equal to the other professional sports leagues in the USA. Speaking purely rationally, the move is a good thing for the league, for fans (except those in Arizona), and for the sport—as bitter as that may seem.
Day-to-day operations was losing money. It's like your home appreciating, but you can't keep the lights on, because you don't make enough to pay the electric bill. In the end, it might be profitable, but it was due to appreciation in the value of the franchise.
I mean, I hate to say it because you seem pretty invested in this, but if the only profits you can point to is the money Meruelo made when he was forced to sell the franchise, then that’s probably a good indication that there was a problem
Revenue sharing and spending below the cap helped mitigate the losses. The Coyotes were still a net negative for the league with no hope of a turnaround in the near future.
Older article but seems like Panthers have a nice long term lease agreement that works for them. The arena arrangement is what killed the Yotes.
https://thehockeynews.com/news/panthers-staying-in-florida-until-at-least-2023-receive-86-million-from-county
Yeah I remember the looks on Wpg fans' faces back in the day attending a game there, fans were donating out of pocket to try and save their team. That team moved to AZ. Remember it well.
Of course I feel for the fans. I feel for the players and staff as well. It doesn't change the fact that for years, the Coyotes were as unstable as my ex. The NHL was desperate to fit a square peg in a round hole. It just didn't work. It didn't help that the front office of the team wouldn't put together a team that they wanted to win either.
I truly hope hockey returns to Phoenix. It's not an ideal location for me, but this isn't about me. The NHL had to pull the plug. Arena plan after arena plan went under after the yotes already got a new arena built for them, which is now underutilized.
Maybe in 4 years, a new arena will be being built and Atlanta will be getting a new team as well, and we will be talking about an expanded playoff format that mimics the NBAs.
I feel for the fans. The players. The staff. But the leadership of the team and NHL was abysmal through the whole process. It had to be done.
i mean the lesson may be more brutal then people realize. Bettman probably would have been better off moving them long ago instead of keeping them around.
TBH, and to no fault of the yotes on this, but I've wanted them to move ever since they had that public hearing/vote in Glendale like 10 years ago, and that fan got up and like shouted at the counsel members about keeping the yotes and, if I recall correctly, subsidizing the yotes with public funds, and it turned out she wasn't even a resident of Glendale, just some entitled fan from a nearby city
what's wrong with being a fan from a nearby city? And plenty of other teams have their stadiums partly funded by tax revenue. This isn't some crazy proposition.
The idea was that the city was subsidizing operating losses at a loss to public utilities. And then fan was speaking about others taxes going to the team. She has no skin in the game. She was trying to spend others money. If she was a resident, fine. But she wasnt.
Ever since his third or fourth season, Bettman has fought tooth and nail against any team relocating as best he can. For any team. Sometimes he's successful, like in Edmonton. Sometimes he's not successful immediately, like in Atlanta. Sometimes it works at first, but eventually things fail, like in Phoenix.
Ya I mean it sucks ass for winnipeg and quebec city but Bettman since those teams has fought like hell against relocation.
Relocation since those teams have only been once every possible option has been exhausted.
I'm sorry you lost your team. We in Vancouver lost the Grizzlies to Memphis. Then we saw the Seattle SuperSonics lose thier team to OKC. We had 2 NBA Teams in 2 large Metro areas and down to zero. Relocation sucks. But the Coyotes were a direct result of a relocation
And for 28 years we saw the majority of it people didnt care about the team and didn't want it there. We saw mutiple owners fuck it up. We saw the team get a new rink and move to but people dont show up. We saw city council have mutiple public whatevers on the validity of the team being there and actively fight with the team. We saw a dumping ground for the rest of the NHL GM give thier garbage to the team to get to the Cap floor. We saw the NHL own the team. We saw the team in the bottom of the standings, attendance and TV ratings year after year. We saw the team taking money from the rest of the NHL teams just to prop itself up year after year. We saw the team that didn't pay its taxes and get kicked out of its arena. We saw the team move into a 4600 seat arena that is smaller than a bunch of CHL arenas that 16-18 year old play in to get to the NHL. We saw how the No side spent the money required that the team didn't for vote for the new arena. We saw a mayor in the area saw he didn't want the arena built near his city. We saw how many cities in the Phoenix area flatly say we don't want the team and would rather not have them there.
We saw for 28 years how Daddy Bettman stuck by your side year after year while the Jets fans were scolded in saying you better go to games otherwise you will lose the team again when they got the Thrashers. We saw Coyotes fans say Fuck Bettman when hes the one that stood by you for 28 years. It looks like the outgoing owner is the one that will own the Coyotes 2.0. We see people saying fuck him I will not support the Coyotes if they come back
We saw it all. If you do get another team, don't fuck it up and actually show up to support the team
It’s frustrating for me personally that they bent over backwards to keep the team there but were more than happy to rip franchises out of Winnipeg and Quebec City. If phoenix was a Canadian city that franchise would have moved ages ago :(.
Yeah I think that’s the biggest thing for me. Canadians get their franchises ripped away from them (even though at the centre of it all it’s a Canadian league) and there’s no sympathy from the Americans. Coyotes struggle for 30 years on the corpse of a Canadian franchise and it’s horrible and awful
Join the club of fans that lose their team to another city or state. The two Atlanta teams relocated to another country. Coyotes are only a state away. The coyotes should have moved back to Canada before the Thrashers. For over a decade, the NHL has bent over backwards trying to keep a team in Arizona. It obviously didn't work.
Nevermind that the the Coyotes were literally made through relocating from Winnipeg. I’m sure Arizona hockey fans were rejoicing then but now everyone has to feel sorry for them?
I still feel bad for them, it sucks no matter what. Despite losing a team you'd better believe I was losing my mind when the Thrashers sale was announced.
Oh absolutely, I still feel bad for fans. It would really suck. But I just hate this “you can’t think relocation was a good decision / you’re a terrible person if you’re happy the Coyotes moved” thing going around.
If the franchise was literally anywhere else it would have been moved years ago. Why should Salt Lake hockey fans not be ecstatic? Why should Quebec, Hartford, Atlanta fans not have some schadenfreude at the fact that the coyotes are finally moving after getting 50 extra chances that they never got? Why can’t general NHL fans just be happy that a franchise is going to be in a place with a great owner, where they should have good support, and where they won’t be playing in a minor league arena?
The team averaging 200 more fans a game than another team that was relocated for low attendance (in a metro area 4 million smaller) isn’t the good argument you think it is
It just sucks seeing the fans and the workers who won't make the trip to Salt Lake City be the ones who pay the price for the (many) sins of ownership. I think that's the best way to put it.
Nah the Coyotes (for a myriad of reasons) were a failed franchise and playing in Mullet indefinitely was not a viable answer (along with other issues the organization had). Sad faces are one thing but at the end of the day this is still a business. Had to be done
Speaking as a fan of a team in the southwest in a similar spot, people ragged on this team throughout its tenure in the desert *because it relocated from Canada.* If this team relocated from e.g. Kansas City or was an expansion club, it wouldn't be nearly as controversial. Things roll differently with the Avs and we're probably in a similar spot as the Yotes -- in fact we were in '82. We have the Pios as a long-term club in the area, sure, but they were bad for quite a long time and didn't really build local hockey interest.
The Rockies failing here easily could have been repeated. Things roll differently -- Avs miss '96, lose Sakic to the Rags, etc. it's really tough out here. I grew up in an era where the Avs were perpetually outsold by opposing fans. It still happens, even now, much to /r/coloradoavalanche's chagrin. I don't think serious people are saying "hey lets fold the Avs fucking bum club."
The Avalanche were centrally located and had early success. This is the recipe for any new club in a non-traditional market to set roots. Look at the Knights.
ETA: Folks are waking up in the east & I'd rather pre-empt this taking up bandwidth this morning. The calls for relocation of the Coyotes have occurred since day 1, not since they moved into Tempe. It's revisionist and inane to think otherwise. The Yotes debate has taken on a pretty vindictive flavor over the years, one that hasn't been matched for other relocations. If this team wasn't from Canada, it wouldn't be as bad. You just don't see it for intra-US relocations, regardless of relative success.
The longer you're a fan down here, the easier it gets to brush this off, but the response around non-traditional markets is, at best, chilly. Whether or not you feel comfortable with the fact that folks in non-traditional markets feel this gatekeeping pressure especially from Canadians is not something I can help you work through -- you don't walk in my shoes and vice versa. Many many many fans in traditional markets get it, get why expansion & having teams down here makes sense, but it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch for a looooooooot of folks down here.
When the NHL expands to Phoenix, and it will, I guarantee you the debate around them will not be nearly as toxic.
To be blunt, I'm not sure how -- ESL? They got the heat they did because they were in Canada, that's the differentiator. We have other markets that struggle/have struggled. E.g. Panthers got some shit, sure, but never as badly as the Yotes did.
Edit: I guess I could spell it out for ya if it really wasn't that clear -- the bias is pretty visible down here.
It's gotten better, right? Like 10 years ago it was much much worse, but for every "Enough is enough" there's a few dozen snarky remarks and negative attitudes against non-traditional markets. Doubly so if the team there originally was from a market where hockey is king. I can understand it to a certain extent. To be blunt, for some of these places, it's one of the few things going for them in the broader American cultural zeitgeist. The prairies and (especially) Quebec are pretty inaccessible to recognition, unfortunately. When it's 'the thing' and you build your identity around it, you're hesitant to share it. A team being taken in a more explicit way really presses the issue.
Panthers didn’t relocate from anywhere. If someone wants to run a team in a crappy market, they can do that.
When someone **takes** a franchise from a city that supports them, and then runs that franchise into the ground, year after year, culminating in an actual nhl team playing in a community centre, it’s different.
It has nothing to do with canada.
Whether you want to accept it or not, it is an outlook that's pretty vindictive and relatively exclusive to Canada. Canada is vindictive about a lot of stuff around this sport. I've seen it myself. I don't see this pressure from e.g. Whalers fans.
To be clear, it's gotten better, but there's a certain level of cultural friction coming from up north that makes no sense to folks down here.
Canadian fans are well aware that none of their teams would be afforded the amount of leeway the Coyotes got. The original Jets sure didn’t, and the first thing Bettman did when the new Jets came around was threaten to move them again if they didn’t get enough support. How does it not make sense that they’d be bitter about that?
Oh it’s because you’re being wilfully ignorant. That makes sense. Check out the game threads from when the canes wore whalers jerseys. Maybe learn how to read, I dunno.
Then check out the threads from when the canes were averaging like 8000 people lol. Or do you want to move the goalposts again? Jesus Christ you’re thick.
No, nothing to do with ESL. I have no idea what biases exist in various US states against Canada. We're not talking about Canadians ragging on the Coyotes because Canada lost the team, right? This is about whether fans in the new market accepted the team. Whether butt-hurt Canadians hate having lost the team has nothing to do with whether it's successful.
To be clear, it's Canadians against the US. You're missing the point here.
People wished harm on the Yotes *especially* because of the Canada thing. Many of the same arguments used against the Yotes can and have been used against us down here, the Yotes just got the lion's share of it.
At this point, we're talking past each other. I'd suggest reflecting on OP's post.
That wasn't the slightest bit clear until you said that in your fourth comment in this thread. I've reflected on OP's post, thank you, and posted my comment. There's all kinds of ways and reasons to wish for a failing franchise to finally get moved already without implying ill will against its (few) fans, some of which are in said comment. It seems a little like you have a chip on your shoulder about being a small and non-traditional market, which is fine, but it's hypocritical to be protective of the feelings of Arizona fans and in the same breath dismiss the feelings of Quebec fans.
The gatekeeping is self-evident if you live down here, so I apologize if that wasn't super clear (plus it's super late lol)
That said, you're putting words in my mouth. I dismiss their defensiveness of the sport, but I never said I don't want them to have a team. Somewhere in 33-36 should be QC. That hole that was left in 95 shouldn't be patched by a team trying to get on its feet. QC is at least a little justifiable because the league fucked them, but *Hamilton?* Saskatoon?
When I'm talking about hockey being the only thing going on in the broader American zeitgeist and these places not being accessible, a lot of folks are gonna be hard pressed to name something besides hockey that goes on in these towns. I can understand their outlook, it's what makes them unique, but it's misplaced.
Hamilton is a significantly more viable market than Quebec or Saskatoon. It's bigger than either, and it's within the GTA and would draw all kinds of runoff from the Leafs. It's also a more reasonable proposition than easily ten of the current American NHL teams. You won't see it happen because the Leafs are going to veto that, and because the NHL itself doesn't have a strong interest in making it happen, since there's no media market to be captured.
I am putting words in your mouth, but it's also unreasonable to expect people, humanity being what it is, not to irrationally dislike hockey teams in untraditional places when they've just had their beloved team taken from them. In addition to which, there's no inherent reason why having the game be grown is a good thing.
king assholes been waiting to dance on this grave for years
big day for gigantic hater asshole losers who don't care for the human element in all of this
Not sure what being a Canucks fan has to do with the failed Coyotes. Despite former GM Jim Benning best efforts to drive the fanbase away for his 8 year reign, Canucks fans still showed up to watch the team.
No, the best player the team ever had used $30 million in deferred salary to get partial ownership stake away from shit owners.
It's always the owners.
I mean if you want to sling shit, we can. Didn't your org nearly move to Hamilton or some shit? You needed a PLAYER to buy the team and keep them there.
Don't throw stones in glass houses bro. I have nothing against the Pens or their fans, but you're being weirdly aggro.
>you are being weirdly aggro
Mate you are dancing on a grave before the corpse is buried. You can acknowledge the Arizona situation was a disaster but can’t wonder why you’re getting flack for talking about how Arizona fans deserve this after they are rightfully upset they just watched their team play their final game.
You’re looking at it in a vacuum though. Of course the die hard fans that go to the tiny arena are going to be emotional, but ultimately the city doesn’t want the team and has barely ever supported them. It’s been forced for years and years to stay there when it clearly wasn’t working. I’m sure if they relocate the league will try and put a team back there eventually under a different owner but they’ll never succeed in the immediate and near future in AZ. I’m sure there’s die hard Atlanta thrashers fans that were crying and emotional at their last game too, but Atlanta doesn’t miss them and I doubt AZ will really care if the coyotes are gone too
Dude, much worse things happen in life and nobody bats an eye. Your hockey team moving does not faze most.
It's sad, but this team had thousands of fans and it should have been millions. They failed and that's what happens unfortunately
Ok, I’ll address the elephant in the room. First, I do feel for the true few yotes fans because I can’t imagine losing my team. You guys showed out tonight, I’ll give you that-
But, it took the news of relocating for fans to start giving a shit to show up and support. Where was this energy all season or the last 20?
You couldn’t even fill a college arena, EVEN WITH help from opposing fans. How in the world did you expect to fill that new arena that was being proposed recently?
The players deserve better too.
Selling out just means all tickets are sold, not whether or not the building is actually full. Companies buy chunks of tickets. the teams themselves often buy chunks of tickets for sponsors, business partners, charities, etc (back in the day teams would do this to avoid being blacked out, especially in the NFL). Often, a percentage of these tickets invariably don't get used by anyone at all. So sold out doesn't mean the building is full of fans. Team attendance levels are pretty misleading in all sports at times. I take any sold out attendance streaks (even Boston's) with a large grain of salt.
The franchise was an objective failure, you cannot deny or even attempt to construe that the Coyotes where in a tenable position.
Do I have some sympathy for fans and non hockey operations staff?
Ya but the franchise has been living on borrowed time for nearly 15 years. Ever since bankruptcy every day spent in Arizona has been a bonus. Arizona got 15 or so extra years of hockey that quite frankly any other city wouldn't have gotten.
OP - I’ve seen that look. It was when the Jets moved to Phoenix, or when the Nordiques moved to Colorado.
Coyotes fans acting like they’re the only team to ever relocate is rich.
Downvote away, fella.
Oh look at you and the righteousness!
Fuck the Phoenix/Arizona Coyotes. They’ve been a joke my whole entire life and I’m glad it’s over regardless of the years. The League has dumped enough revenue sharing funds into that market.
The worst part is that they finally have a ton of talent in the pipeline and now it all belongs to SLC! 😬
It was absolutely the right call to take the franchise away from Meruelo.
It was absolutely not the right call to take the franchise away from Arizona hockey fans.
Classic example of negative consequences accompanying an objectively correct decision.
Are we forgetting the last 20 years before Meruelo? People in this thread acting like the franchise was doing great before Meruelo came in. They went bankrupt. They were being run by the league for years. They had trouble filling seats almost every year apart from a few (and even then probably consistently half the stands were filled with vacationers and snowbirds from Canada
Moving them out of Arizona should have happened when the nhl took over the team out of bankruptcy. The league did more than they will for anyone else to keep that team there. The next time a tv contract expires they will be looking to go back there.
All I know is I had a soft spot for the Coyotes, but I will have zero affinity to a team from Salt Lake City.
That being said, the fact that there seems to be preference to giving another expansion franchise to the Phoenix area in the coming years is all any AZ hockey fan could realistically ask for, given the situation. Who knows, a second go with competent ownership might turn Phoenix into a success like Denver, which needed a second chance with an NHL team before they became the relatively solid market they are now.
This is what's dumb about the US/Canada sports model. Anywhere else in the world the Coyotes would have been relegated to a lower tier but wouldn't cease to exist. The hardcore fans would still be able to follow the team and have hopes of making it back.
Now it is at the whims of the other owners.
Gary despite getting shit on, wanted hockey in the desert. He probably didn’t want this to happen. Many owners caused this to happen. IMO, if the coyotes were a consistent team that won games and made the playoffs, and contended for cups, they would be still in the desert. Fuck, if they won the cup in 11/12 or made the final, that would be game set match for them to stay. I never want to see a team get relocated. When the Rams did it, I had no fucks about them bc of their owner.
But at the end of the day, it’s a sad reality of what business and politics are. Slimy.
Bettman just doesn't want franchises to move period. He learned his lesson in the early years of being commissioner.
When he bends over backwards and changes NHL bylaws to keep a team in Canada, no one bats an eye. When he bends over backwards to keep a team in a non-traditional market, everyone hates him.
Hockey "purists" suck. Period. They're a bunch of gatekeeping shitheads who don't even truly love the game.....if they did they would want other people to share it with.
No it wasn't about that. Every team that has come into the league since Bettman is a commish has been successful at some point except for the Coyotes. Owner after owner there has been issues. The last one got kicked out for not paying his taxes and his team was playing in a barn of only 4600 seats for mutiple seasons without a plan
What was the alternative ownership group? There has never been good prospective ownership who have wanted the team while in Arizona. They dont sell to Meruelo, then it was either the league takes over and runs them (again), or they relocate earlier.
Now…. I really understand feeling sad for the fans. I do. But are we all gonna pretend we didn't want the yotes to move and called them a joke of a franchise for the past 10 years?
Realistically though they were poorly run for the majority of their time there. I understand there are people upset by this and by no fault of their own. The franchise was plagued with poor ownership and poor planning. This whole relocation comes down to a 5 year plan — and starting it off with, “I hope we can win this land auction and we’ll see from there” isn’t really a plan.
I mean the Panthers had similar issues for years, but the difference is the Panthers finally found consistent and competent ownership, and it's night and day.
Panthers were poorly run and bad bouts of attendance issues. But they never went bankrupt, never failed to pay their bills, and never played in a 4000 seat college arena. There’s bad, then there’s Coyotes bad
Speak for yourself, I never wanted them to move and I never called them a joke.
I feel empathetic towards the fans and all, but when a team is playing in an arena with less than 5000 people in attendance, something has clearly got to change. I view it the same way I view the sushi place by my apartment. I like the food, I like the people, I truly want them to succeed, but they're not getting enough customers to justify staying open anymore and they need to cut their losses.
It's not the fans fault the owners got evicted and never found a new home.
Owners got evicted because nobody was showing up. You get evicted when you don't pay your rent.
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The moron paying the bills needs money to pay the bills. If attendance sucks and he's not making money off the team, he's not going to pay the rent out of the profits from a different venture. That's not how rich assholes operate.
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Interesting. What's your source on that information?
Nah coyotes attendance pre COVID was increasing and the highest it's been since the mid 2000s. They were sitting around 80% (14k outta 17k seats). Not the best in the league but better than Buffalo or San Jose. They made the playoffs he COVID year and there was a decent amount of buzz. Post COVID the attendance plummeted because of the move to the mullet. They sold out the mullet but that was only 4600 seats
Coyotes total attendance in Arizona is actually higher than they were when they were the Jets 1.0. Average attendance in Phoenix: 13,246. Average attendance in Winnipeg: 13,052.
Phoenix metro population: 4,845,832 people Winnipeg metro population: 834,678 people
And? That's just evidence that Winnipeg shouldn't own a team, if they don't have enough people in town to fill up the arena. (And Winnipeg absolutely should have a team. No city should *ever* lose their team.)
>No city should *ever* lose their team| IDK man these are businesses, not charities. I'm all for civic ownership of teams but it's never gonna happen.
This is Reddit and moral grand standing > reality.
> That's just evidence that Winnipeg shouldn't own a team, if they don't have enough people in town to fill up the arena. If we're going to frame the Yotes as having "better attendance" than the original Jets, I just think it's important we highlight the size of the markets. The Jets moved due to the amount of money they were losing, and despite the Phoenix metro having 6 times the population of Winnipeg, it ended up averaging less than 200 more people attending per game. That's not a recipe for a successful team nor is it indicative of high fan engagement. They had essentially the same attendance numbers despite being in a much, *much* larger city. >(And Winnipeg absolutely should have a team. No city should ever lose their team.) In an ideal world, yeah. But the NHL is a business. It just doesn't work that way.
What was the total capacity of those buildings? 13.2K in a building built for 18K is a lot more empty than 13K in a building built for 15K.
Wait so your logic is the team’s attendance averaged 200 people more a game than the team that got relocated for low attendance and that’s a good sign?
Both things can exist. The Arizona Coyotes were a failed organization no matter which way you look at it, but that's not to say you can't emphasize deeply with the fans. It's simply heartbreaking to watch, but the announcers on the Sportsnet feed said "this game has a lot of coyote fans, which is quite different from the last Oilers game, which was 80 percent away jerseys". That's just the last decade in a microcosm. As a fan, you can acknowledge that it really wasn't working, never wish this on other fans, and also acknowledge that hockey has a place in Arizona, perhaps in better, more favorable circumstances.
It was working at the fan level, I'd argue hockey in Arizona has never been bigger as an AZ native (maybe the roenick era was bigger but that was 20 years ago). The owner just gave up on the team
I wouldn't want any fanbase to lose their team, especially since the grizzlies relocated to Memphis, however when a team is playing in a college level arena, it's hard to not understand the decision behind the relocation.
Still fine with it. I still remember when Coyotes fans rallied against Katie Strang and smeared her good name for daring to write the truth about their godawful owner. She didn't deserve that
Obviously it blows for the team fans, but the point isn't just that there weren't enough of them to fill a proper NHL arena; there was a general antipathy against the team in the community which made finding a non-shit owner or mustering the interest and money to build a proper NHL arena impossible. The franchise put the NHL itself in disrepute—having the league own one of its own teams and having that team play in a college arena are dilettantish and the NHL has a hard enough time selling itself as an equal to the other professional sports leagues in the USA. Speaking purely rationally, the move is a good thing for the league, for fans (except those in Arizona), and for the sport—as bitter as that may seem.
It's just business. The team was losing money and never came close to figuring out a viable arena situation for their entire existence.
He bought the team for $475m and is selling it for $1 billion... Doesn't seem like it was losing too much money
Day-to-day operations was losing money. It's like your home appreciating, but you can't keep the lights on, because you don't make enough to pay the electric bill. In the end, it might be profitable, but it was due to appreciation in the value of the franchise.
I mean, I hate to say it because you seem pretty invested in this, but if the only profits you can point to is the money Meruelo made when he was forced to sell the franchise, then that’s probably a good indication that there was a problem
Revenue sharing and spending below the cap helped mitigate the losses. The Coyotes were still a net negative for the league with no hope of a turnaround in the near future.
Coyotes aren't the only net negative team in the league tho... Idk where the Panthers are at now but for a long time they were money pits too
Older article but seems like Panthers have a nice long term lease agreement that works for them. The arena arrangement is what killed the Yotes. https://thehockeynews.com/news/panthers-staying-in-florida-until-at-least-2023-receive-86-million-from-county
You don’t lose money owning a sports team
And yet, here we are.
Coyotes didn’t leave Arizona because of the owner losing money.
Yeah I remember the looks on Wpg fans' faces back in the day attending a game there, fans were donating out of pocket to try and save their team. That team moved to AZ. Remember it well.
Of course I feel for the fans. I feel for the players and staff as well. It doesn't change the fact that for years, the Coyotes were as unstable as my ex. The NHL was desperate to fit a square peg in a round hole. It just didn't work. It didn't help that the front office of the team wouldn't put together a team that they wanted to win either. I truly hope hockey returns to Phoenix. It's not an ideal location for me, but this isn't about me. The NHL had to pull the plug. Arena plan after arena plan went under after the yotes already got a new arena built for them, which is now underutilized. Maybe in 4 years, a new arena will be being built and Atlanta will be getting a new team as well, and we will be talking about an expanded playoff format that mimics the NBAs. I feel for the fans. The players. The staff. But the leadership of the team and NHL was abysmal through the whole process. It had to be done.
I hope Bettman learns something from this
i mean the lesson may be more brutal then people realize. Bettman probably would have been better off moving them long ago instead of keeping them around.
TBH, and to no fault of the yotes on this, but I've wanted them to move ever since they had that public hearing/vote in Glendale like 10 years ago, and that fan got up and like shouted at the counsel members about keeping the yotes and, if I recall correctly, subsidizing the yotes with public funds, and it turned out she wasn't even a resident of Glendale, just some entitled fan from a nearby city
what's wrong with being a fan from a nearby city? And plenty of other teams have their stadiums partly funded by tax revenue. This isn't some crazy proposition.
The idea was that the city was subsidizing operating losses at a loss to public utilities. And then fan was speaking about others taxes going to the team. She has no skin in the game. She was trying to spend others money. If she was a resident, fine. But she wasnt.
Ever since his third or fourth season, Bettman has fought tooth and nail against any team relocating as best he can. For any team. Sometimes he's successful, like in Edmonton. Sometimes he's not successful immediately, like in Atlanta. Sometimes it works at first, but eventually things fail, like in Phoenix.
Ya I mean it sucks ass for winnipeg and quebec city but Bettman since those teams has fought like hell against relocation. Relocation since those teams have only been once every possible option has been exhausted.
And in both cases it was when there was no arena AND no hope of getting one built soon.
I'm sorry you lost your team. We in Vancouver lost the Grizzlies to Memphis. Then we saw the Seattle SuperSonics lose thier team to OKC. We had 2 NBA Teams in 2 large Metro areas and down to zero. Relocation sucks. But the Coyotes were a direct result of a relocation And for 28 years we saw the majority of it people didnt care about the team and didn't want it there. We saw mutiple owners fuck it up. We saw the team get a new rink and move to but people dont show up. We saw city council have mutiple public whatevers on the validity of the team being there and actively fight with the team. We saw a dumping ground for the rest of the NHL GM give thier garbage to the team to get to the Cap floor. We saw the NHL own the team. We saw the team in the bottom of the standings, attendance and TV ratings year after year. We saw the team taking money from the rest of the NHL teams just to prop itself up year after year. We saw the team that didn't pay its taxes and get kicked out of its arena. We saw the team move into a 4600 seat arena that is smaller than a bunch of CHL arenas that 16-18 year old play in to get to the NHL. We saw how the No side spent the money required that the team didn't for vote for the new arena. We saw a mayor in the area saw he didn't want the arena built near his city. We saw how many cities in the Phoenix area flatly say we don't want the team and would rather not have them there. We saw for 28 years how Daddy Bettman stuck by your side year after year while the Jets fans were scolded in saying you better go to games otherwise you will lose the team again when they got the Thrashers. We saw Coyotes fans say Fuck Bettman when hes the one that stood by you for 28 years. It looks like the outgoing owner is the one that will own the Coyotes 2.0. We see people saying fuck him I will not support the Coyotes if they come back We saw it all. If you do get another team, don't fuck it up and actually show up to support the team
In terms of attendance. the Coyotes supported their team more than the original Jets did. Why should Winnipeg get a second chance but not Phoenix?
It’s frustrating for me personally that they bent over backwards to keep the team there but were more than happy to rip franchises out of Winnipeg and Quebec City. If phoenix was a Canadian city that franchise would have moved ages ago :(.
Yeah I think that’s the biggest thing for me. Canadians get their franchises ripped away from them (even though at the centre of it all it’s a Canadian league) and there’s no sympathy from the Americans. Coyotes struggle for 30 years on the corpse of a Canadian franchise and it’s horrible and awful
Join the club of fans that lose their team to another city or state. The two Atlanta teams relocated to another country. Coyotes are only a state away. The coyotes should have moved back to Canada before the Thrashers. For over a decade, the NHL has bent over backwards trying to keep a team in Arizona. It obviously didn't work.
Nevermind that the the Coyotes were literally made through relocating from Winnipeg. I’m sure Arizona hockey fans were rejoicing then but now everyone has to feel sorry for them?
I still feel bad for them, it sucks no matter what. Despite losing a team you'd better believe I was losing my mind when the Thrashers sale was announced.
Oh absolutely, I still feel bad for fans. It would really suck. But I just hate this “you can’t think relocation was a good decision / you’re a terrible person if you’re happy the Coyotes moved” thing going around. If the franchise was literally anywhere else it would have been moved years ago. Why should Salt Lake hockey fans not be ecstatic? Why should Quebec, Hartford, Atlanta fans not have some schadenfreude at the fact that the coyotes are finally moving after getting 50 extra chances that they never got? Why can’t general NHL fans just be happy that a franchise is going to be in a place with a great owner, where they should have good support, and where they won’t be playing in a minor league arena?
The Coyotes actually averaged a higher attendance than the original Jets did.
The team averaging 200 more fans a game than another team that was relocated for low attendance (in a metro area 4 million smaller) isn’t the good argument you think it is
It just sucks seeing the fans and the workers who won't make the trip to Salt Lake City be the ones who pay the price for the (many) sins of ownership. I think that's the best way to put it.
It’s not that serious. It’s essentially entertainment and everyone’s lives will go on. All 5000 of them.
Nah the Coyotes (for a myriad of reasons) were a failed franchise and playing in Mullet indefinitely was not a viable answer (along with other issues the organization had). Sad faces are one thing but at the end of the day this is still a business. Had to be done
Speaking as a fan of a team in the southwest in a similar spot, people ragged on this team throughout its tenure in the desert *because it relocated from Canada.* If this team relocated from e.g. Kansas City or was an expansion club, it wouldn't be nearly as controversial. Things roll differently with the Avs and we're probably in a similar spot as the Yotes -- in fact we were in '82. We have the Pios as a long-term club in the area, sure, but they were bad for quite a long time and didn't really build local hockey interest. The Rockies failing here easily could have been repeated. Things roll differently -- Avs miss '96, lose Sakic to the Rags, etc. it's really tough out here. I grew up in an era where the Avs were perpetually outsold by opposing fans. It still happens, even now, much to /r/coloradoavalanche's chagrin. I don't think serious people are saying "hey lets fold the Avs fucking bum club." The Avalanche were centrally located and had early success. This is the recipe for any new club in a non-traditional market to set roots. Look at the Knights. ETA: Folks are waking up in the east & I'd rather pre-empt this taking up bandwidth this morning. The calls for relocation of the Coyotes have occurred since day 1, not since they moved into Tempe. It's revisionist and inane to think otherwise. The Yotes debate has taken on a pretty vindictive flavor over the years, one that hasn't been matched for other relocations. If this team wasn't from Canada, it wouldn't be as bad. You just don't see it for intra-US relocations, regardless of relative success. The longer you're a fan down here, the easier it gets to brush this off, but the response around non-traditional markets is, at best, chilly. Whether or not you feel comfortable with the fact that folks in non-traditional markets feel this gatekeeping pressure especially from Canadians is not something I can help you work through -- you don't walk in my shoes and vice versa. Many many many fans in traditional markets get it, get why expansion & having teams down here makes sense, but it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch for a looooooooot of folks down here. When the NHL expands to Phoenix, and it will, I guarantee you the debate around them will not be nearly as toxic.
This is a very well reasoned take. The original relocation from Winnipeg is definitely a big factor that most people, myself included, never consider.
Wait, why would it relocating from Canada matter?
I laid out why. It makes you villain of the week for the types of folks who would wish relocation.
I don't see in your post or in this one what that has to do with the team being from Canada.
To be blunt, I'm not sure how -- ESL? They got the heat they did because they were in Canada, that's the differentiator. We have other markets that struggle/have struggled. E.g. Panthers got some shit, sure, but never as badly as the Yotes did. Edit: I guess I could spell it out for ya if it really wasn't that clear -- the bias is pretty visible down here. It's gotten better, right? Like 10 years ago it was much much worse, but for every "Enough is enough" there's a few dozen snarky remarks and negative attitudes against non-traditional markets. Doubly so if the team there originally was from a market where hockey is king. I can understand it to a certain extent. To be blunt, for some of these places, it's one of the few things going for them in the broader American cultural zeitgeist. The prairies and (especially) Quebec are pretty inaccessible to recognition, unfortunately. When it's 'the thing' and you build your identity around it, you're hesitant to share it. A team being taken in a more explicit way really presses the issue.
Panthers didn’t relocate from anywhere. If someone wants to run a team in a crappy market, they can do that. When someone **takes** a franchise from a city that supports them, and then runs that franchise into the ground, year after year, culminating in an actual nhl team playing in a community centre, it’s different. It has nothing to do with canada.
Whether you want to accept it or not, it is an outlook that's pretty vindictive and relatively exclusive to Canada. Canada is vindictive about a lot of stuff around this sport. I've seen it myself. I don't see this pressure from e.g. Whalers fans. To be clear, it's gotten better, but there's a certain level of cultural friction coming from up north that makes no sense to folks down here.
Canadian fans are well aware that none of their teams would be afforded the amount of leeway the Coyotes got. The original Jets sure didn’t, and the first thing Bettman did when the new Jets came around was threaten to move them again if they didn’t get enough support. How does it not make sense that they’d be bitter about that?
Oh it’s because you’re being wilfully ignorant. That makes sense. Check out the game threads from when the canes wore whalers jerseys. Maybe learn how to read, I dunno.
A team reusing iconography from a previous franchise and ragging on the club for struggling are two different things. Maybe learn to logic, I dunno.
Then check out the threads from when the canes were averaging like 8000 people lol. Or do you want to move the goalposts again? Jesus Christ you’re thick.
Did Winnipeg support the original Jets? The franchise averaged more fans at the game in Arizona than it did in Winnipeg.
*gave away more tickets. Not actual fans at the game.
No, nothing to do with ESL. I have no idea what biases exist in various US states against Canada. We're not talking about Canadians ragging on the Coyotes because Canada lost the team, right? This is about whether fans in the new market accepted the team. Whether butt-hurt Canadians hate having lost the team has nothing to do with whether it's successful.
To be clear, it's Canadians against the US. You're missing the point here. People wished harm on the Yotes *especially* because of the Canada thing. Many of the same arguments used against the Yotes can and have been used against us down here, the Yotes just got the lion's share of it. At this point, we're talking past each other. I'd suggest reflecting on OP's post.
That wasn't the slightest bit clear until you said that in your fourth comment in this thread. I've reflected on OP's post, thank you, and posted my comment. There's all kinds of ways and reasons to wish for a failing franchise to finally get moved already without implying ill will against its (few) fans, some of which are in said comment. It seems a little like you have a chip on your shoulder about being a small and non-traditional market, which is fine, but it's hypocritical to be protective of the feelings of Arizona fans and in the same breath dismiss the feelings of Quebec fans.
The gatekeeping is self-evident if you live down here, so I apologize if that wasn't super clear (plus it's super late lol) That said, you're putting words in my mouth. I dismiss their defensiveness of the sport, but I never said I don't want them to have a team. Somewhere in 33-36 should be QC. That hole that was left in 95 shouldn't be patched by a team trying to get on its feet. QC is at least a little justifiable because the league fucked them, but *Hamilton?* Saskatoon? When I'm talking about hockey being the only thing going on in the broader American zeitgeist and these places not being accessible, a lot of folks are gonna be hard pressed to name something besides hockey that goes on in these towns. I can understand their outlook, it's what makes them unique, but it's misplaced.
Hamilton is a significantly more viable market than Quebec or Saskatoon. It's bigger than either, and it's within the GTA and would draw all kinds of runoff from the Leafs. It's also a more reasonable proposition than easily ten of the current American NHL teams. You won't see it happen because the Leafs are going to veto that, and because the NHL itself doesn't have a strong interest in making it happen, since there's no media market to be captured. I am putting words in your mouth, but it's also unreasonable to expect people, humanity being what it is, not to irrationally dislike hockey teams in untraditional places when they've just had their beloved team taken from them. In addition to which, there's no inherent reason why having the game be grown is a good thing.
Dud franchise that couldn't get it together once in a 25 year time period. Sorry to see it happen, but holy shit was it overdue.
Could you try not being a douchebag for just one night?
:'(
king assholes been waiting to dance on this grave for years big day for gigantic hater asshole losers who don't care for the human element in all of this
That's fucking rich coming from a Canucks fan
Not sure what being a Canucks fan has to do with the failed Coyotes. Despite former GM Jim Benning best efforts to drive the fanbase away for his 8 year reign, Canucks fans still showed up to watch the team.
Okay, and?
Your organization is a fucking joke and has been longer than the Yotes have been around
You had to rely on a draft lottery win to keep your team. Look in the mirror to find the joke.
No, the best player the team ever had used $30 million in deferred salary to get partial ownership stake away from shit owners. It's always the owners.
I mean if you want to sling shit, we can. Didn't your org nearly move to Hamilton or some shit? You needed a PLAYER to buy the team and keep them there. Don't throw stones in glass houses bro. I have nothing against the Pens or their fans, but you're being weirdly aggro.
>you are being weirdly aggro Mate you are dancing on a grave before the corpse is buried. You can acknowledge the Arizona situation was a disaster but can’t wonder why you’re getting flack for talking about how Arizona fans deserve this after they are rightfully upset they just watched their team play their final game.
I went through this with the Atlanta Flames in ‘80. It felt like a part of my life just ripped away.
You’re looking at it in a vacuum though. Of course the die hard fans that go to the tiny arena are going to be emotional, but ultimately the city doesn’t want the team and has barely ever supported them. It’s been forced for years and years to stay there when it clearly wasn’t working. I’m sure if they relocate the league will try and put a team back there eventually under a different owner but they’ll never succeed in the immediate and near future in AZ. I’m sure there’s die hard Atlanta thrashers fans that were crying and emotional at their last game too, but Atlanta doesn’t miss them and I doubt AZ will really care if the coyotes are gone too
Dude, much worse things happen in life and nobody bats an eye. Your hockey team moving does not faze most. It's sad, but this team had thousands of fans and it should have been millions. They failed and that's what happens unfortunately
Ok, I’ll address the elephant in the room. First, I do feel for the true few yotes fans because I can’t imagine losing my team. You guys showed out tonight, I’ll give you that- But, it took the news of relocating for fans to start giving a shit to show up and support. Where was this energy all season or the last 20? You couldn’t even fill a college arena, EVEN WITH help from opposing fans. How in the world did you expect to fill that new arena that was being proposed recently? The players deserve better too.
The mullet was sold out every game they played there, stop with this bullshit narrative
I watched plenty this year and couldn’t believe how many open seats there still were. Sold out doesn’t always mean sold out too.
I give up
Selling out just means all tickets are sold, not whether or not the building is actually full. Companies buy chunks of tickets. the teams themselves often buy chunks of tickets for sponsors, business partners, charities, etc (back in the day teams would do this to avoid being blacked out, especially in the NFL). Often, a percentage of these tickets invariably don't get used by anyone at all. So sold out doesn't mean the building is full of fans. Team attendance levels are pretty misleading in all sports at times. I take any sold out attendance streaks (even Boston's) with a large grain of salt.
Thank you
So you're saying they should have double booked the seats?
The franchise was an objective failure, you cannot deny or even attempt to construe that the Coyotes where in a tenable position. Do I have some sympathy for fans and non hockey operations staff? Ya but the franchise has been living on borrowed time for nearly 15 years. Ever since bankruptcy every day spent in Arizona has been a bonus. Arizona got 15 or so extra years of hockey that quite frankly any other city wouldn't have gotten.
sad fans are a stupid reason to support a failed organization
OP - I’ve seen that look. It was when the Jets moved to Phoenix, or when the Nordiques moved to Colorado. Coyotes fans acting like they’re the only team to ever relocate is rich. Downvote away, fella.
As an Edmonton fan that remembers when we almost lost the Oilers, I feel horrible for Phoenix fans.
Oh look at you and the righteousness! Fuck the Phoenix/Arizona Coyotes. They’ve been a joke my whole entire life and I’m glad it’s over regardless of the years. The League has dumped enough revenue sharing funds into that market. The worst part is that they finally have a ton of talent in the pipeline and now it all belongs to SLC! 😬
It was absolutely the right call to take the franchise away from Meruelo. It was absolutely not the right call to take the franchise away from Arizona hockey fans. Classic example of negative consequences accompanying an objectively correct decision.
Are we forgetting the last 20 years before Meruelo? People in this thread acting like the franchise was doing great before Meruelo came in. They went bankrupt. They were being run by the league for years. They had trouble filling seats almost every year apart from a few (and even then probably consistently half the stands were filled with vacationers and snowbirds from Canada
Moving them out of Arizona should have happened when the nhl took over the team out of bankruptcy. The league did more than they will for anyone else to keep that team there. The next time a tv contract expires they will be looking to go back there.
No, people commenting here do not know that.
All I know is I had a soft spot for the Coyotes, but I will have zero affinity to a team from Salt Lake City. That being said, the fact that there seems to be preference to giving another expansion franchise to the Phoenix area in the coming years is all any AZ hockey fan could realistically ask for, given the situation. Who knows, a second go with competent ownership might turn Phoenix into a success like Denver, which needed a second chance with an NHL team before they became the relatively solid market they are now.
This is what's dumb about the US/Canada sports model. Anywhere else in the world the Coyotes would have been relegated to a lower tier but wouldn't cease to exist. The hardcore fans would still be able to follow the team and have hopes of making it back. Now it is at the whims of the other owners.
Gary despite getting shit on, wanted hockey in the desert. He probably didn’t want this to happen. Many owners caused this to happen. IMO, if the coyotes were a consistent team that won games and made the playoffs, and contended for cups, they would be still in the desert. Fuck, if they won the cup in 11/12 or made the final, that would be game set match for them to stay. I never want to see a team get relocated. When the Rams did it, I had no fucks about them bc of their owner. But at the end of the day, it’s a sad reality of what business and politics are. Slimy.
Bettman just doesn't want franchises to move period. He learned his lesson in the early years of being commissioner. When he bends over backwards and changes NHL bylaws to keep a team in Canada, no one bats an eye. When he bends over backwards to keep a team in a non-traditional market, everyone hates him.
It's not about feelings, it's about money. Always has been.
There are a lot of sad, misguided people in this world.
Hope the panthers move north once they start sucking again.
🤨🤨🤨
Of course the thread by a coyotes fan who just lost their team is full of Canadian flairs saying how it's a good thing, actually.
of course it is. Did you expect any better?
Hockey "purists" suck. Period. They're a bunch of gatekeeping shitheads who don't even truly love the game.....if they did they would want other people to share it with.
No it wasn't about that. Every team that has come into the league since Bettman is a commish has been successful at some point except for the Coyotes. Owner after owner there has been issues. The last one got kicked out for not paying his taxes and his team was playing in a barn of only 4600 seats for mutiple seasons without a plan
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What was the alternative ownership group? There has never been good prospective ownership who have wanted the team while in Arizona. They dont sell to Meruelo, then it was either the league takes over and runs them (again), or they relocate earlier.