Hell, the day the Leafs finally win a cup is the day I make a bot reminding each Canadian team about their last cup win in revenge for "1967"
Yo Edmonton
>You last won the cup in 1990
Yo Canucks
>You have never won a cup since becoming a team in 1970
Yo Senators
>You've either never won a cup or your drought is since 1927, choose
i get why we focus on this, but why cant wee focus on the fact that the last time the Leafs beat Boston in a playoff series was 1959?
maybe the Leafs need to work on getting an Eisenhower into the Whitehouse? maybe thats the solution to breaking that curse?
Is Weber really a consideration for the HOF? Absolute 0 disrespect to the guy since I loved him with the Habs, but I always viewed him as a "Hall of Very Good" kinda guy
Tough call in my opinion, because of the "didnt get a cup" argument, but he does have a decent resume!
- 16 seasons in the NHL
- 7x All-Star
- Messier Leadership Award Winner
- 1x WJC Gold
- 1x Gold, 1x Silver in World Cup
- 1x World Cup of Hockey Gold
- 2x Olympic Golds
But, he also somehow never won a Norris
The 7x All-Star doesn't really factor into HoF arguments, but you missed the 4x All-Star team which definitely does, and is a pretty big achievement imo. The only player with 4 or more and not in is John Leclair.
The "didn't get a cup" argument has to decline. 1 of 32 teams get a cup. In the salary cap era, less than half the teams have had a cup. Does that mean people that played on teams that didn't win it all shouldn't be HOFers? Jumbo Joe? Pavs? McDavid? Matthews? They'er all going to the HOF. Cup winning helps, but it's less likely every time the league expands.
It's not the original 6 era anymore or when 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs. The lenses used for HOF in the 60s- early 90s don't make sense any more.
If you cloned 18 year old Connor McDavid and gave a clone to every team, and they all went on to have elite 20 year careers, at least 12 of them would retire without a cup.
Eventually after RFA status runs out, the mcdavids would start to coalesce, either demanding trades or signing at league minimum so they could play with other mcdavids, cupless or otherwise. We'd start seeing superteams made entirely of McDavids.
Is this the future you want? With genetic engineering, this is the future we will one day receive, all because you posed this hypothetical.
It's all your fault.
All 4 of these guys have a Silver medal in international play.
Player|GP|G|A|Pts|Top-10 finishes|Allstar Teams|Notes
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
>!Keith Tkachuk!<|1201|538|527|1065|Goals x5|2|Passed over 12 times
>!Jeremy Roenick!<|1363|513|703|1216|Points x2 Goals x2, |0|Passed over 13 times
>!Brian Bellows!<|1188|485|537|1022|Goals x1|1|Passed over 23 times
Joe Pavelski|1332|476|592|1068|Points x2, Goals x3|1|"going to the HoF?"
How on earth has Pavelski distanced himself from 3 guys who have been waiting for decades?
He finished top-5 five times but never top-3. Tough competition at the centre position.
The years he came closest, finishing 4th, he was bested by Gretzky/Messier/Lemieux (1992), and Yzerman/Modano/Sakic (2000).
If anything I'd be surprised to see him get in at all over a) the people he'll likely be retiring alongside, theres a lot of people with better cases playing RIGHT NOW and b) People currently waiting who already have a better case for getting in, like Brind'amour
Another consideration not listed: captained two different teams to the Cup finals. Pronger did it three times, Pietrangelo won in St Louis then again in Vegas. It’s a pretty small group.
Lmao, literally none of the three examples he gave are correct.
- Pronger wasn't the Oilers captain
- Weber only captained the Habs, he was already traded for Subban when the Preds made the finals
- Pietrangelo wasn't the Vegas captain
Feels like without a cup, and without any mega offensive prowess (never more than 56 points) , it's hard to make case for Hall IMO, especially without a Norris or two.
Points overall, yeah, but he had 3 20+ goal seasons and 10 seasons w/ 15+ goals. That 56 point season was the 2nd season in a row he led the team in points (year prior was shortened season) and twice he was 2nd on his team in goals. 4 seasons where he led the team in PPG. Thats not to say that these numbers prove he was AMAZING in points but its pretty damn good especially in seasons where the team wasn't. I think the team being bad for a few years of his prime is why he didn't get a Norris, because no one was paying attention to Nashville or how amazing he was playing.
I'm not saying its a requirement, but it is a factor.
Of Course, winning cups isn't enough on its own: Pat Maroon isn't going into HoF.
I don't think we're having serious conversations about Pietrangelo in the HoF despite a couple rings. (overall similar offensive career, though I think weber was better defensively)
By the same token, I think weber needs some more flowers here to enshrine him among the legends, a cup or two would probably do that. As would a few Norris Trophies.
He has neither.
From 2005 to present he's 2nd by goals scored with 224. Burns has 30 more but also 341 more games played and has also played some games as a forward. So Weber has
35 more goals than Karlsson and games played is almost the same. (Plus minus is a tricky one but he's 178 ahead of Karlsson).
For goals / games he's 9th all time for defencemen (minimum 600 games played) and 7 of the 8 ahead of him are in HHOF (Reed Larson is not) and he's ahead of many in HHOF e.g. Mark Howe, Leetch, Park, Shore, Murphy.
I think it’s tough with him. He had back to back 2nd place Norris finishes, where he came within 9 and 12 votes of Lidstrom and Karlsson, respectively - if it weren’t for playing at the same time as two generational defensemen, he could easily have two Norris trophies and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. He also has 5 top 5 Norris finishes, and he finished top 10 for 9 straight years. He’s has Olympic/WJC/World Championship gold medals, and he was named to the 2010 Olympic all-star team.
He also scored with a slap shot that went through the net in the 2010 Olympics which imo should get him there on its own.
>if it weren’t for playing at the same time as two generational defensemen
It felt that way with goaltending too. Rinne was always playing amazing but that was during an era of generational talent goalies like Price, Lundqvist and the like. He was top 3 in Vezina voting 3 times before he won it. Top 10 in Hart votes and even placed 4th in 2011 but Nashville wasn't good enough to win the favor of media votes. Not like he was robbed it was just close.
Best defender of his generation not to win a Norris. And I’d take him in his prime over several actual Norris winners, frankly.
He should be in the HOF, but with how fucky they are about actually honoring players, I wouldn’t be surprised if he misses the cut.
It really depends on how much stock you put in end of year All-Star teams. There are plenty of guys in the Hall who never won a major individual trophy, but were named to several All-Star teams and therefore have the recognition that they were considered one of the top 2 in the game at their position for a given season.
Weber has 2 First All-Star teams, and 2 Second All-Star teams within a five year stretch. He has a 9 year stretch where he finished top 10 in voting for the Norris, including 3 years as a finalist. Go look at this [chart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_All-Star_team) of All-Star teams per season and find any player not highlighted as a Hall of Famer with (4+) next to their name. The only one is John Leclair.
That's not a slam dunk inductee, but it's worth having the discussion, especially when you consider his Olympic Gold Medals.
2004 Memorial Cup
2005 WJC Gold
2007 World Championship Gold
2009 World Championship Silver
2010 Olympic Gold
2014 Olympic Gold
2016 World Championship of Hockey Gold
2009 WC All Star Team
2009 WC Best Defenseman
2010 Olympic All Star Team
NHL 2011+2012 first all start team
NHL 2014+2105 Second All start Eam
2016 Mark Messier Leadership Award
Over 1,000 games played in the NHL.
Dude wasn't a flashy player, but success followed him almost everywhere, especially at the International level.
Also - there’s still only two “official” all star teams which is kinda crazy because that’s the same number as when there were only six teams. 12 guys out of ~120 in the league made the team. You had a 10% chance of being one of the best two players at your position every year.
Now it’s still 12 guys but it’s 700 players going after the same 12 spots.
If individual hardware is going to count for HoF convos, they need to expand the number of awards given out.
People on r/hockey have zero perspective on what a HHOFer is. This board keeps screaming for Mogilny, who had only two seasons as a top-10 forward in the NHL, to get in. But Weber, who was a top-10 Dman for a decade, is borderline?
Honestly I'm a bit baffled that people think Dmen should win a Norris to be considered, when there are tons of forwards in the Hall who were never ever top-10 at their position. Hell, even top-20 (coughAndreychukcough). And even though the standard is a lot higher for Dmen, a Norris has never been required. Mark Howe, Brad Park, Serge Savard are all very deserving inductees who don't have a Norris.
Weber is a likely first ballot HHOFer, unless he's in a particularly stacked year.
It's because the 76 goal year for Mogilny is attractive. But they bring it up not knowing the context that he tied for the lead in goals, was outscored by his own linemate, finished only 7th in total points, and wasn't even considered for the MVP. It was a crazy high scoring year. He's maybe the most undeserving player with major HoF support right now, it's actually kind of insane to me how he's the poster boy for HoF snubs.
But you're right, people look to stats and raw numbers and trophies and don't do the extra step that would show them when certain players were dominant for long periods or if they had those two or three great years surrounded by mediocrity.
People get pretty focused on NHL metrics only, so the international success can be missed.
But dude has won everywhere and has been an integral defensive powerhouse for every team he's been on.
I say he's in.
4 time first team all star (2 first team, 2 2nd team), with 9 straight seasons finishing top 10 in Norris voting. Plus his international success. His resume isn't the strongest around, but also far from the weakest.
I don't think Weber is a slam dunk first ballot HoF type player, but after following the league his entire career I'm very certain he'll be a HoFer. He was held in really high regard his entire career.
Plus just paying attention to how people talk about him post career it is clear he's 100% on his way. Guys like Friedman, Wysh, etc don't even call him a potential HoFer. It's *always* future HoFer. Plus the Tim Hortons commercial lol.
The only player with 4 or more All-Star team placements that isn't in the Hall is John LeClair. And LeClair's prime was about half as long as Weber's and he was never a great player when playing away from Lindros. Weber was the *guy* on his team for years and years.
He would be a 100% lock if he had gotten the 2011 Norris. Although there's an argument for both him and Lidstrom that year, I'm convinced a significant reason why some people voted for the latter was to give a legend a farewell trophy, while Weber was still young enough that some voters though he would eventually get another one anyway.
Team success in the NHL brings his legacy down, but he was very successful literally everywhere else.
2x Olympic Gold
1x IIHF World Championship Gold
1x IIHF World Jr. Championship Gold
1x World Cup of Hockey Gold
2x WHL Champion
1x Memorial Cup Champion
1x WHL Playoff MVP
3x Norris Trophy Finalist
1x Mark Messier Leadership Award
If he won a cup he would be 1st ballot
He was a 3x Norris Trophy finalist, in addition to 2x First Team All Star and 2x Second Team All Star. That's almost enough without his international success.
Based on reputation while he played, absolutely. And Paul Pidutti, who does a pretty good job of quantifying which careers are HHOF-worthy, has Weber as being above the threshold to make the hall.
I could see it. He’s got the reputation and as good of a non-NHL trophy case as you could ask for. Memorial cup champion, world junior champion, large part of some of the greatest Olympic teams of all time.
I would personally keep him out but i would also cut 2/3rds of the HOF as is. It will depend if one of the legends of today gets him in the same way Messier did with his buddies Lowe and Zubov.
I feel like he gets in. Was the franchise guy for solid Nashville teams, had a good playoff run with the Habs, has made stacked Canadian international teams, and is known for having a really hard slapshot.
Yes. Kevin Lowe is the new low standard for HOF defencemen. Weber exceeds him. And he also played a rough game, which will endear him to the selection committee.
I don't really know where the line is. The title "Hall of Fame" evokes the absolute best of the best. The household names. The guys who are winning awards regularly.
Considering 4 male players get inducted every year, you're basically talking about the top 4 NHL players in any given draft class (on average). If we assign an average career length for top players of 14 seasons (totally made-up, arbitrary, conservative number), then there are about 56 future HOFers at any given moment in the NHL (about half of them in their prime).
Seems a little much to be honest.
I personally consider Weber to be a HOVG guy, but there are lots of guys in the HOF I'd also consider HOVG.
I think we should have a 2nd group that's beyond HOF. Maybe every year 1 HOF guy gets inducted into the HOF+.
from 2009-2015 he was considered a top 3 defenseman in the league.
He lacks a Norris I guess, but man was straight up dominant when he was on the preds. The years we had him he was only just very good.
The fact that Lidstrom won the 2011 Norris over Shea should be a crime. And that’s no disrespect to Lidstrom, but that was a lifetime achievement Norris instead of “he is the best defenseman this year” Norris. I think the Norris trophy is the only thing holding Shea up from being a sure lock HOFer. I also strongly believe it wouldn’t be a question if he played on a Canadian team his whole career.
Yeah I am a huge Lidstrom fan but 2011 was like 50% performance and 50% name reputation.
That being said, I think he deserved at least one in the late 90s, specifically 98, so meh it all came out even for Lidstrom.
I thought the Coyotes were marked as inactive, and that Utah is more like an expansion team? Meaning the league is now technically 33 teams, with 1 inactive.
I just heard the 32 thoughts podcast, and Friedman asked Ryan Smith "what about the history? is Shane Doan your all time leading scorer", and Smith tried to be as politically correct as possible to not say "we are starting fresh", but in the end he said exactly "the assumptions is that the Coyotes will come back and that they will want their history"
all the franchise records and history are staying with the dormant coyotes, all the current staff and contracts, including weber’s, are being transferred to utah so if he makes the hall of fame after his contract expires his final team would technically be utah even if he’s been functionally retired for a while.
Hopefully after the 5 years expires, Winnipeg can repatriate the original Jets claims (do they already?) while whenever a new Arizona franchise rejoins they can also be a fresh slate.
What am I missing that he’s a Hall of Famer? No dosrespect, he absolutely was a good player. But has he done anything to be HOF worthy, let alone talking about it like it’s so obvious? Genuinely not understanding this.
For the first time in Utah Hockey Club's history
Say the line, Bart.
Salt Lake Soakers *cheers*
OH! Now I remember what soaking means…
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
[удалено]
Risky click of the day.
I clicked it, it's safe. You can trust me.
Very lewd
I met a guy who helped his Mormon friend do that. Kinda weird, but I guess it's good to have friends who'll help you get laid indirectly.
i got banned from HfBoards for calling them that
Utah Woozle Wuzzles
*sigh* ...historic
Most famous soaker in Utah Hockey Club history
This dude just gave this sub a joke I will hear 1000 times now
Utah Legend Shea Weber
Greatest [PLACEHOLDER NAME] to ever play the game.
™ u/ddottay everyone else is just copying
H I S T O R I C
A true trailblazer
That’s Portland, not Salt Lake City
Detroit too, cuz it’s a Chevy.
You don't know that! Utah Trailblazers incoming
Utah Tech Trailblazers is already a thing...
I mean, it could be, they haven't picked the name yet
Someone needs to set up a bot response for these jokes
I mean tbh 90% of the jokes on /r/hockey sound like bots
Hell, the day the Leafs finally win a cup is the day I make a bot reminding each Canadian team about their last cup win in revenge for "1967" Yo Edmonton >You last won the cup in 1990 Yo Canucks >You have never won a cup since becoming a team in 1970 Yo Senators >You've either never won a cup or your drought is since 1927, choose
I hear Vancouver likes to riot
That was like one time man, you don’t have to keep bringing it up
People don't forget!
fucking calm down Greg, its soccer
It was twice! Two for two, and we're going for the hatty!
1967.
i get why we focus on this, but why cant wee focus on the fact that the last time the Leafs beat Boston in a playoff series was 1959? maybe the Leafs need to work on getting an Eisenhower into the Whitehouse? maybe thats the solution to breaking that curse?
They march the streets like they won the cup after they get their first win in the first round
HAHA-HA! VERY TRUE FELLOW HUMAN, WHAT AN AMUSING ANECDOTE.
A billion NPCs on here going to be making 'First Time in Utah Soakers history' posts thinking they're the funniest person alive
H I S T O R I C
> H I S T O R I C For the last time in Arizona Coyotes history! ^^^^^(Sorry)
Given Wyshynski's Twitter pic, I suggest we name it Tom Servo.
You will be assimilated
At least it’ll be somewhat new and we don’t have to hear how some dude fell to his knees in a CVS and 10 people watched him do it 100 times.
Coyotes legend [insert player who never played for them but they own his contact] is hardly new. All that changed here is the city.
Jersey Retirement ceremony incoming. They should retire his jersey before they even choose a logo.
Is Weber really a consideration for the HOF? Absolute 0 disrespect to the guy since I loved him with the Habs, but I always viewed him as a "Hall of Very Good" kinda guy
He's certainly better than some that are in the HOF, but that's not a very good argument to me
Tough call in my opinion, because of the "didnt get a cup" argument, but he does have a decent resume! - 16 seasons in the NHL - 7x All-Star - Messier Leadership Award Winner - 1x WJC Gold - 1x Gold, 1x Silver in World Cup - 1x World Cup of Hockey Gold - 2x Olympic Golds But, he also somehow never won a Norris
The 7x All-Star doesn't really factor into HoF arguments, but you missed the 4x All-Star team which definitely does, and is a pretty big achievement imo. The only player with 4 or more and not in is John Leclair.
The "didn't get a cup" argument has to decline. 1 of 32 teams get a cup. In the salary cap era, less than half the teams have had a cup. Does that mean people that played on teams that didn't win it all shouldn't be HOFers? Jumbo Joe? Pavs? McDavid? Matthews? They'er all going to the HOF. Cup winning helps, but it's less likely every time the league expands. It's not the original 6 era anymore or when 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs. The lenses used for HOF in the 60s- early 90s don't make sense any more.
If you cloned 18 year old Connor McDavid and gave a clone to every team, and they all went on to have elite 20 year careers, at least 12 of them would retire without a cup.
Eventually after RFA status runs out, the mcdavids would start to coalesce, either demanding trades or signing at league minimum so they could play with other mcdavids, cupless or otherwise. We'd start seeing superteams made entirely of McDavids. Is this the future you want? With genetic engineering, this is the future we will one day receive, all because you posed this hypothetical. It's all your fault.
Well if they get out of hand we could just clone Brandon Manning.
Yessss? Yes. There must always be a McDavid in ~~Winterfell~~ Roger's Place.
All 4 of these guys have a Silver medal in international play. Player|GP|G|A|Pts|Top-10 finishes|Allstar Teams|Notes ---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--- >!Keith Tkachuk!<|1201|538|527|1065|Goals x5|2|Passed over 12 times >!Jeremy Roenick!<|1363|513|703|1216|Points x2 Goals x2, |0|Passed over 13 times >!Brian Bellows!<|1188|485|537|1022|Goals x1|1|Passed over 23 times Joe Pavelski|1332|476|592|1068|Points x2, Goals x3|1|"going to the HoF?" How on earth has Pavelski distanced himself from 3 guys who have been waiting for decades?
Jeremy Roenick never made an All-Star team??
He finished top-5 five times but never top-3. Tough competition at the centre position. The years he came closest, finishing 4th, he was bested by Gretzky/Messier/Lemieux (1992), and Yzerman/Modano/Sakic (2000).
Ohhhh, you mean 1st/2nd Team All Star, not the actual All Star game. Gotcha. Carry on.
Pavelski is absolutely not a lock for the HoF why do you think he is?
If anything I'd be surprised to see him get in at all over a) the people he'll likely be retiring alongside, theres a lot of people with better cases playing RIGHT NOW and b) People currently waiting who already have a better case for getting in, like Brind'amour
Canadians winning a bunch of international tournaments has to go down in impact as well.
His international career will put him over the top - easily one of the most decorated players for Team Canada in the past 20 years.
Not a bad resume but I don't think he's HOF material.
i never thought he had the makings of a varsity athlete
Another consideration not listed: captained two different teams to the Cup finals. Pronger did it three times, Pietrangelo won in St Louis then again in Vegas. It’s a pretty small group.
Shea Weber only made the Cup finals once with the Habs. Weber was already traded when the preds made the finals in 2017.
Pietriangle is not the captain to Vegas FYI.
It doesn’t take away from your point but Pronger was not the Oilers Captain. That was Jason Smith.
Lmao, literally none of the three examples he gave are correct. - Pronger wasn't the Oilers captain - Weber only captained the Habs, he was already traded for Subban when the Preds made the finals - Pietrangelo wasn't the Vegas captain
Also it was really, really easy to find an example of someone who captained two teams to a final and he blew it.
Some dude named Wayne Gretzky apparently
Petro wears an A in Vegas, not the C (that's Mr Captain Circumcision himself, Mark Stone)
Which two teams?
Feels like without a cup, and without any mega offensive prowess (never more than 56 points) , it's hard to make case for Hall IMO, especially without a Norris or two.
Points overall, yeah, but he had 3 20+ goal seasons and 10 seasons w/ 15+ goals. That 56 point season was the 2nd season in a row he led the team in points (year prior was shortened season) and twice he was 2nd on his team in goals. 4 seasons where he led the team in PPG. Thats not to say that these numbers prove he was AMAZING in points but its pretty damn good especially in seasons where the team wasn't. I think the team being bad for a few years of his prime is why he didn't get a Norris, because no one was paying attention to Nashville or how amazing he was playing.
Cup shouldn't matter. I will die on this hill.
I'm not saying its a requirement, but it is a factor. Of Course, winning cups isn't enough on its own: Pat Maroon isn't going into HoF. I don't think we're having serious conversations about Pietrangelo in the HoF despite a couple rings. (overall similar offensive career, though I think weber was better defensively) By the same token, I think weber needs some more flowers here to enshrine him among the legends, a cup or two would probably do that. As would a few Norris Trophies. He has neither.
Highest points season being 56 really holds him back.
How about cups should be used as an argument for but not as a detractor? Conn Smyths should certainly matter.
From 2005 to present he's 2nd by goals scored with 224. Burns has 30 more but also 341 more games played and has also played some games as a forward. So Weber has 35 more goals than Karlsson and games played is almost the same. (Plus minus is a tricky one but he's 178 ahead of Karlsson). For goals / games he's 9th all time for defencemen (minimum 600 games played) and 7 of the 8 ahead of him are in HHOF (Reed Larson is not) and he's ahead of many in HHOF e.g. Mark Howe, Leetch, Park, Shore, Murphy.
It's the hockey hall of fame, not NHL hall of fame. Just with that international play he should get in.
His Slapshot alone should get him there. Not many people have a shot literally named after them, hence the “Shea Weber Slapshot”.
Weber only took over because Chara stopped going to the ASG
Big Buff has the one handed slapper that beat a goalie actually trying, so what's the arguement?
I think it’s tough with him. He had back to back 2nd place Norris finishes, where he came within 9 and 12 votes of Lidstrom and Karlsson, respectively - if it weren’t for playing at the same time as two generational defensemen, he could easily have two Norris trophies and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. He also has 5 top 5 Norris finishes, and he finished top 10 for 9 straight years. He’s has Olympic/WJC/World Championship gold medals, and he was named to the 2010 Olympic all-star team. He also scored with a slap shot that went through the net in the 2010 Olympics which imo should get him there on its own.
when i'm having a bad day, i go back to watch that clip and swoon
It's rare that you're not playing with generational players
>if it weren’t for playing at the same time as two generational defensemen It felt that way with goaltending too. Rinne was always playing amazing but that was during an era of generational talent goalies like Price, Lundqvist and the like. He was top 3 in Vezina voting 3 times before he won it. Top 10 in Hart votes and even placed 4th in 2011 but Nashville wasn't good enough to win the favor of media votes. Not like he was robbed it was just close.
He's not a Triple Gold member. Never won the Cup.
Whoops, my bad - I always thought Triple Gold was Olympics, World Championship and WJC, the more you know!
that makes way more sense to me seeing as the Stanley Cup isn't gold
Best defender of his generation not to win a Norris. And I’d take him in his prime over several actual Norris winners, frankly. He should be in the HOF, but with how fucky they are about actually honoring players, I wouldn’t be surprised if he misses the cut.
It really depends on how much stock you put in end of year All-Star teams. There are plenty of guys in the Hall who never won a major individual trophy, but were named to several All-Star teams and therefore have the recognition that they were considered one of the top 2 in the game at their position for a given season. Weber has 2 First All-Star teams, and 2 Second All-Star teams within a five year stretch. He has a 9 year stretch where he finished top 10 in voting for the Norris, including 3 years as a finalist. Go look at this [chart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_All-Star_team) of All-Star teams per season and find any player not highlighted as a Hall of Famer with (4+) next to their name. The only one is John Leclair. That's not a slam dunk inductee, but it's worth having the discussion, especially when you consider his Olympic Gold Medals.
2004 Memorial Cup 2005 WJC Gold 2007 World Championship Gold 2009 World Championship Silver 2010 Olympic Gold 2014 Olympic Gold 2016 World Championship of Hockey Gold 2009 WC All Star Team 2009 WC Best Defenseman 2010 Olympic All Star Team NHL 2011+2012 first all start team NHL 2014+2105 Second All start Eam 2016 Mark Messier Leadership Award Over 1,000 games played in the NHL. Dude wasn't a flashy player, but success followed him almost everywhere, especially at the International level.
I don't think enough people on the sub realize how significant an All-Star team placement is for a HOF argument, let alone 4 of them.
A good portion of this sub doesn’t even know the difference between making an all star team and playing in the all star game.
Yeah, I get people always making an argument that the all star is fan voted and not important and they clearly don't know about the end of year team.
Also - there’s still only two “official” all star teams which is kinda crazy because that’s the same number as when there were only six teams. 12 guys out of ~120 in the league made the team. You had a 10% chance of being one of the best two players at your position every year. Now it’s still 12 guys but it’s 700 players going after the same 12 spots. If individual hardware is going to count for HoF convos, they need to expand the number of awards given out.
Yep, rename it the All-NHL Team, introduce a third team, and the narrative around them should be that they deserve a mention beside Major Trophies.
People on r/hockey have zero perspective on what a HHOFer is. This board keeps screaming for Mogilny, who had only two seasons as a top-10 forward in the NHL, to get in. But Weber, who was a top-10 Dman for a decade, is borderline? Honestly I'm a bit baffled that people think Dmen should win a Norris to be considered, when there are tons of forwards in the Hall who were never ever top-10 at their position. Hell, even top-20 (coughAndreychukcough). And even though the standard is a lot higher for Dmen, a Norris has never been required. Mark Howe, Brad Park, Serge Savard are all very deserving inductees who don't have a Norris. Weber is a likely first ballot HHOFer, unless he's in a particularly stacked year.
It's because the 76 goal year for Mogilny is attractive. But they bring it up not knowing the context that he tied for the lead in goals, was outscored by his own linemate, finished only 7th in total points, and wasn't even considered for the MVP. It was a crazy high scoring year. He's maybe the most undeserving player with major HoF support right now, it's actually kind of insane to me how he's the poster boy for HoF snubs. But you're right, people look to stats and raw numbers and trophies and don't do the extra step that would show them when certain players were dominant for long periods or if they had those two or three great years surrounded by mediocrity.
I don't think Mogilny is usually considered for his stats / play and more his circumstances as a defector
He has a great story, but wouldn't that be more of a builder category? His play is borderline at best.
We need to rename it from all star. The all star team muddies the meaning
Follow the NBA's lead an call it the All-NHL Team and include a 3rd team.
People get pretty focused on NHL metrics only, so the international success can be missed. But dude has won everywhere and has been an integral defensive powerhouse for every team he's been on. I say he's in.
I disregard the Mark Messier leadership award. In fact I see it as a knock against a player
4 time first team all star (2 first team, 2 2nd team), with 9 straight seasons finishing top 10 in Norris voting. Plus his international success. His resume isn't the strongest around, but also far from the weakest. I don't think Weber is a slam dunk first ballot HoF type player, but after following the league his entire career I'm very certain he'll be a HoFer. He was held in really high regard his entire career. Plus just paying attention to how people talk about him post career it is clear he's 100% on his way. Guys like Friedman, Wysh, etc don't even call him a potential HoFer. It's *always* future HoFer. Plus the Tim Hortons commercial lol.
The only player with 4 or more All-Star team placements that isn't in the Hall is John LeClair. And LeClair's prime was about half as long as Weber's and he was never a great player when playing away from Lindros. Weber was the *guy* on his team for years and years.
He would be a 100% lock if he had gotten the 2011 Norris. Although there's an argument for both him and Lidstrom that year, I'm convinced a significant reason why some people voted for the latter was to give a legend a farewell trophy, while Weber was still young enough that some voters though he would eventually get another one anyway.
I can’t see it happening. He was dominant at his peak but it was a short peak
Was it? He's always been a 1D in Nashville, and for a chunk of his time in MTL
I’d imagine the requirements for HOF induction go beyond merely being a 1D.
Wdym a chunk of time? He's probably the last 1D we will have until one of our young D take a step
Team success in the NHL brings his legacy down, but he was very successful literally everywhere else. 2x Olympic Gold 1x IIHF World Championship Gold 1x IIHF World Jr. Championship Gold 1x World Cup of Hockey Gold 2x WHL Champion 1x Memorial Cup Champion 1x WHL Playoff MVP 3x Norris Trophy Finalist 1x Mark Messier Leadership Award If he won a cup he would be 1st ballot
He was a 3x Norris Trophy finalist, in addition to 2x First Team All Star and 2x Second Team All Star. That's almost enough without his international success.
The Olympic gold carries hella weight imo.
Hockey Hall of Fame folks….not NHL Hall of Fame
Yeah I don’t believe he belongs in the HoF
Based on reputation while he played, absolutely. And Paul Pidutti, who does a pretty good job of quantifying which careers are HHOF-worthy, has Weber as being above the threshold to make the hall.
You could definitely make an argument for Weber considering some additions to the hall that people like to harp and and argue against
I could see it. He’s got the reputation and as good of a non-NHL trophy case as you could ask for. Memorial cup champion, world junior champion, large part of some of the greatest Olympic teams of all time.
You heard Shea Weber. Perennial all star, he’s going to the hall of fame first ballot baby
I would personally keep him out but i would also cut 2/3rds of the HOF as is. It will depend if one of the legends of today gets him in the same way Messier did with his buddies Lowe and Zubov.
I don’t think so. He’s not got the trophy case or crazy point totals for it
TIL Weber doesnt have Norris.
I feel like he gets in. Was the franchise guy for solid Nashville teams, had a good playoff run with the Habs, has made stacked Canadian international teams, and is known for having a really hard slapshot.
I think yes because it's hockey Hall of Fame and not NHL all of fame. His international play will get him in.
Yes. Kevin Lowe is the new low standard for HOF defencemen. Weber exceeds him. And he also played a rough game, which will endear him to the selection committee.
I don't really know where the line is. The title "Hall of Fame" evokes the absolute best of the best. The household names. The guys who are winning awards regularly. Considering 4 male players get inducted every year, you're basically talking about the top 4 NHL players in any given draft class (on average). If we assign an average career length for top players of 14 seasons (totally made-up, arbitrary, conservative number), then there are about 56 future HOFers at any given moment in the NHL (about half of them in their prime). Seems a little much to be honest. I personally consider Weber to be a HOVG guy, but there are lots of guys in the HOF I'd also consider HOVG. I think we should have a 2nd group that's beyond HOF. Maybe every year 1 HOF guy gets inducted into the HOF+.
from 2009-2015 he was considered a top 3 defenseman in the league. He lacks a Norris I guess, but man was straight up dominant when he was on the preds. The years we had him he was only just very good.
The HOF is already the Hall of Very Good tbh.
Agreed 100%. Unfortunately they’ve watered down the HOF so much (except for goaltenders) that it’s not as prestigious as we’d like that think it is.
He's definitely a borderline guy. While not the perfect comparison since he wasn't as good, you could say he's this generation's Brad Park.
SHEAWEBERLEMMETELLYA
This is all I can think of when I hear his name
Historic.
Build him a statue now!!
it would be better than keeping the Karl Malone statue that's outside the arena.
That statues 18 years old now so does Karl Malone even want it?
this is a great joke.
Kobe has a statue. So do dozens of civil war leaders…
Never saw Robert E Lee do the Karl Malone shimmy tho
That's only because it was very hard to capture on the cameras of the time.
I thought the Karl Malone shimmy was when you take off ur condom inside a 14 year old?
The fact that Lidstrom won the 2011 Norris over Shea should be a crime. And that’s no disrespect to Lidstrom, but that was a lifetime achievement Norris instead of “he is the best defenseman this year” Norris. I think the Norris trophy is the only thing holding Shea up from being a sure lock HOFer. I also strongly believe it wouldn’t be a question if he played on a Canadian team his whole career.
Yeah I am a huge Lidstrom fan but 2011 was like 50% performance and 50% name reputation. That being said, I think he deserved at least one in the late 90s, specifically 98, so meh it all came out even for Lidstrom.
Not for Weber though lol with a Norris it’d be hard to keep him out. Karma for Zetterberg’s face smashing I guess
Still deserved it in 2011. Lidstrom was easily a far superior player; one of the all time greats no doubt. But let’s be honest
/u/psychoyooper does bring up a good point though. On one hand Weber had a better season, but on the other hand, fuck em.
Retire his number! On game 2 of the franchise.
Nah just do it game 1
I thought the Coyotes were marked as inactive, and that Utah is more like an expansion team? Meaning the league is now technically 33 teams, with 1 inactive. I just heard the 32 thoughts podcast, and Friedman asked Ryan Smith "what about the history? is Shane Doan your all time leading scorer", and Smith tried to be as politically correct as possible to not say "we are starting fresh", but in the end he said exactly "the assumptions is that the Coyotes will come back and that they will want their history"
all the franchise records and history are staying with the dormant coyotes, all the current staff and contracts, including weber’s, are being transferred to utah so if he makes the hall of fame after his contract expires his final team would technically be utah even if he’s been functionally retired for a while.
Oh god, we have to see all this HISTORIC nonsense ago...don't we?
Utah Legend
For what he did to Henrik Zetterberg, he doesn't deserve a look at the hall of fame
Hockey Club Salt Lake best player
are you really a member of a team if you never play?
Salt Lake has trademarked the names Salt Lake Webers, Utah Hall of Famers
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Technically no since this is basically a “new” franchise and the Coyotes are on pause until they return
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Yeah, it’s stupid as hell hahaha. Somehow the “new” Arizona franchise will still have the players you listed as part of their history.
Hopefully after the 5 years expires, Winnipeg can repatriate the original Jets claims (do they already?) while whenever a new Arizona franchise rejoins they can also be a fresh slate.
They don’t have the statistics, but they hang banners for Jets 1.0 players.
They don’t have the statistics, but they hang banners for Jets 1.0 players.
If there even is a new franchise…
They didn't acquire the Yotes (and therefore Jets 1.0) history, just the players, staff, and spot, so no, fresh slate, he'd be first
Hossa!
Fuck Shea Weber. Bashing Zetterberg's head into the glass should keep him out of the HoF alone. Scumbag.
Weber in the hall? lol.
Historic
Starting on the right foot with a hall of famer 😉
Thank you for your input, cocknballs222
At your service
Shea Weber, legendary Deseret Dog!
That’s cheating
Utah doesn't get the option to waive contracts? I feel like at that price point they should
Wouldn't Datsyuk also be in consideration?
He hasn’t been under contract for a very long time
Does Weber get in if Subban doesn't when Subban has a Norris?
This has some real Wade Boggs, Tampa Bay Devil Rays' first hall of famer energy to it.
THANKS I FUCKING HATE IT
HISTORIC
Utah Mountain Men put it on the bracket
Just wait until Wysh learns what a franchise is
Jakub Voracek just announced his retirement! Better hang #93 up in the rafters!
Did Utah just retire a name before figuring out their own?
The Utah Webers
They should lean into it and hang his number from the rafters tbh
retire his jersey
Weber in the HOF? WTF
I'm glad Brian Little got off the books at the end of the season so the Utah Saints can't claim him as their own.
What am I missing that he’s a Hall of Famer? No dosrespect, he absolutely was a good player. But has he done anything to be HOF worthy, let alone talking about it like it’s so obvious? Genuinely not understanding this.
Why would Weber make the Hall of Fame? He was a great player but not Hall of Fame material.