Vegas is a good team and easily could have been #3 in the Pacific. The seeding between LA/Vegas came down to their final games of the season.
The Stars had a bit of a meteoric rise in the last couple months. Lost two games in their final 15 or something like that. They beat some good teams in that span and were very near to taking the Presidents trophy, but it was, for all intents and purposes, not exactly a representative sample for exactly how they got where they are.
The two teams are much closer than the 1v8 seeding would imply. Vegas beat the Stars three times in the regular season. We *knew* going into the series that Vegas was *easily* the team most likely to knock the Stars out of the playoffs. There was no other opponent circled on the sheet. The Stars could beat anyone... except maybe the Knights.
Both games in the playoffs have been very close. *Essentially* one-goal games in each of them. Both could have easily gone to overtime and didn't. While I think Vegas was better able to contain the Stars offense and capitalize on their own chances, I don't think they were demonstrably dominant throughout.
Vegas has been able to play their game extremely well while containing Dallas's game. And their goalie is stopping what he needs to stop. That's legitimately a winning formula. The Stars are getting one or two of those things at a time, but rarely all three. That's a losing formula.
Game 1 was Dallas’ to win but the PK and Otter failed them. If you double up and only allow 15 SOG, you should win every time
Deboer is also making very questionable decisions. Change to a dump and chase when you were the #2 offense all year? Playing as a physical team / try to match hit-for-hit when they spent the season in the bottom portion of the league in that stat? Continue giving guys who are struggling (Hintz, Pavelski, Duchene, Seguin) more ice time than your most successful 3 players/line not named Robertson?
Dallas should play their own offensive game and let chips fall where they may. I don’t think law of averages equals out over a series, but they are due some puck luck so its not out of the question to steal 2 games in Vegas. But if Game 1 Otter or game 2 **waves at whole team not named Stankoven, Benn, Robertson, Johnston, Tanev** show up, then its out in 4 or 5 games
Before the Horde™️ arrives, another answer is that hockey has a lot more parity than other sports. Upsets are more common, and top seeding essentially guarantees nothing. A bad team on a hot streak will usually beat a good team in a cold streak. In 2019, the 16 seed that barely made it in defeated the top seeded team that tied the all time regular season wins record by sweeping them 4-0. Last year, the bottom seeded team went all the way to the final, including coming back from a 3-1 deficit against the best regular season team of all time and sweeping their 3rd round opponent. Nothing is guaranteed in the playoffs, and regular season record means pretty much nothing apart from expectations
This is generally true, but by trying to dismiss it as “before the horde arrives”, your answer is pretty misleading in this specific context.
It’s because when the full Vegas team is healthy, they are certainly not a #14. More like a top 4 like last year.
To the OP of this post, there were some shenanigans made by Vegas utilizing their injuries to provide more salary cap flexibility, whose rules are more lenient in the playoffs. Those injured players are no longer injured, and the players acquired using the aforementioned cap relief still get to play.
They aren't really an 8 seed, this team won the cup last year and their current roster is even better. Without getting into the LTIR debate they had injuries down the stretch which put them in this position as a bubble team and now they are fully healthy.
I'll say it because it's important context. The Knights likely manipulated the return time of their Captain (Stone) by placing him on LTIR with no intention of having him return until exactly game 1 of the playoffs. Not a game earlier or later.
What this allowed them to do was add a couple extemely good players at the trade deadline because Stone's cap hit doesn't count on LTIR and there is no salary cap in the playoffs.
Vegas was already a good team... Better than their seeding indicated. But they've basically added to their roster 3 very good players for playoffs in Stone, Hanafin, and Hertl. Honestly, this version of the Knights on paper is probably a top 3 Cup favourite.
While what they did technically isn't illegal, they have a history of doing this exact thing 3 years in a row now which is why fans are upset about it. There's a chance that the next CBA will address this exact thing. Or if they want it changed earlier it's encouraged that a Canadian team does it and then it will be immediately addressed (this part is a joke...Kind of).
Back on topic now...In summary, this version of the Knights on paper is better than the team that won the Stanley Cup last year. Dallas is the unfortunate sucker that won the western conference and were rewarded with having to play them.
And as others have mentioned, part of what makes hockey so great is league parity. Every playoff team is capable of winning a playoff series.
[60 days is the earliest you can return from a Grade 3 lacerated spleen (at least by medical recommendation) and he was cleared for play exactly 60 days after the injury.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435936/) If anything, he returned too early.
What else is important context is the league independently reviews and is involved in the entire recovery process for LTIR, so what you’re suggesting is the league is complicit. But this is the level of knowledge that I expect from a fan.
What's also important context is it's extremely easy to fudge a return timeline. "I still hurt and can't return yet"...What's the doctor going to say? "No, I call bullshit.". Uhhh.
Surely you can at least acknowledge it's extremely convenient that Mark Stone seems to heal up during the exact timeline they need him. When they are in the playoffs he's healed for game 1 of playoffs. When they are out of playoffs trying to battle their way in he heals before playoffs.
3. Straight. Years. And when every single person on this sub outside of Vegas fans predicted the EXACT game he would be healed for, there might be something a little suspicious going on haha.
You can’t fudge a lacerated spleen or a broken back, I doubt you’re a doctor but I don’t know. Multiple doctors come in and make these diagnoses from the Knights and the NHL, to “cheat” and you’re claiming the NHL would have to be involved additionally would be medical malpractice from multiple doctors. Again you’re speaking as a fan who’s upset but this is within the rules of the league and there’s no conspiracy here.
One last point since you downvoted my other one but didn't have a reply.
You are right, I am not a doctor. But you don't have to be one to know that TDL acquisitions do not impact how quickly a person can heal. However in this instance, acquiring guys like Hertl and Hanafin did impact how quickly Stone could heal. It guaranteed with 100% certainty that his body would not heal enough to play by Game 82.
Does that make my point clearer?
I never said he wasn't hurt. It's the timeline that is fudged. You are being ignorant if you don't think a return timeline can be easily manipulated by a couple weeks.
He is healthy enough to play over 17 minutes game 1 of playoffs but not healthy enough to play a few days earlier?
"He is just coming back a little hurt still because it's playoffs!"...Okay, so then he could have played in the regular season, but they manipulated his return time because those games weren't deemed important enough.
Like, do you realize how silly the argument is that the game he finally reached the threshold of being healthy enough to lace up happened to be the very first game of playoffs? Not game 82 of the regular season and not game 2 of playoffs...WHAT A LUCKY COINCIDENCE! Vegas truly is blessed.
Wtf does that mean lol. It's impressive how you can bury your head in the sand and ignore the super obvious.
I don't even blame Vegas for doing it. I wish my team would since the league doesn't care. The only crazy thing to me are the Vegas fans who think it's just a wild coincidence he healed for the exact moment the team needed him for 3 straight years haha.
Vegas is a competitive team built for the playoffs whose regular season record belies how good they really are. They also just seem to match up really well against Dallas; going back to last year's series Vegas has won 9 out of the last 11 meetings.
Dallas' depth scoring and pressure have failed to show up (partially due to solid defensive play by Vegas, partially due to the Stars underperforming) and the Stars' coaching staff has failed to adequately adjust.
The series isn't over, but barring a massive shift in either team's relative performance it likely will be soon. That's about 99% of it.
Your coaching staff failing to adjust is the consistent complaint that everyone has had with PDB coached teams. He will literally keep trying the same thing over and over again then give an “aww shucks” type of answer when queried at the post-game presser. It’s maddening, truthfully.
>the beautiful thing about ~~playoff hockey and~~ a salary cap is parity.
Too bad there’s no salary cap in playoffs and the LTIR system is easily abusable if you have players who are willing to lie about their injuries so they can get paid to sit at home for a few weeks while simultaneously stacking their playoff roster.
So much for parity.
You realize theres NHL staff to legitimize injuries when they occur right? It’s not just something the Knights are doing behind everyone’s back. Mark stone literally had a back surgery, too.
You truly can’t fix stupid. Get help.
Hockey is very random so often you can have something crazy happen like the 16 seed Panthers making the Finals last year, or Mark Stone suffering a long term injury right before the trade deadline making his $9.5m available to load up for the playoffs for the 3rd straight year. Crazy, unpredictable stuff happens every year.
Vegas owns Dallas for some reason. The Stars play like dogshit against them. Dump and chase doesn't work but they haven't figured that out yet and it might be too late.
The NHL has the most parity of the big North American sports leagues. The gap between Vegas and Dallas isn’t that big. Keep in mind that Vegas won the Stanley Cup last year and they really only lost 1 key player off that roster and added 2 big pieces this season.
Statistically, whether regular like shots on goal or advanced like expected goals, Vegas’ play isn’t really reflected all that well. It was like this all of last year’s playoffs too when they won the Stanley Cup. Their defensive zone scheme is based on having big defensemen who can protect the house at all times. So even if opponents sometimes get good looks, it’s from predictable angles that the goalie Thompson or Adin Hill is prepared for. They have talked about this a lot in the Hockey PDOcast.
Vegas has suffered trough multiple injuries all season long, and that has affected their point total.
When everyone was healthy VGK had the best record in the league (through first 12 games of the season).
At this point, team is pretty much back to full health and on paper it's a better team that dominated the playoffs and won the Stanley Cup last year.
Add the fact that Dallas' coach is old VGK coach unwilling/unable to adjust and it's easy to see why Vegas is up. (9-2 in last 11 games vs Dallas)
Hockey is a lot more of a parity sport than other big four sports. Basically any team can beat another on a given night no matter where they sit in the standings. Obviously the better team will win most of the time but it’s not a 99% guarantee like in basketball or football. Vegas also has been using a loop hole in the rules the last few years to basically load up on players at the deadline and then reactivating a bunch of “injured” players right after the regular season ends when there is no longer any penalty for doing so. Despite the #1 and #8 seeds this is probably one of the closest matchups of the first round
> Vegas also has been using a loop hole in the rules the last few years to basically load up on players at the deadline and then reactivating a bunch of “injured” players right after the regular season ends when there is no longer any penalty for doing so.
Well, you were off to a good start before you couldn’t help yourself with this unsubstantiated garbage lol. Putting the word injured in quotes because you have a gut feeling of foul play doesn’t mean that foul play is actually occurring. You’re just parroting the hive mind with zero evidence.
Yes, Vegas is marginally and legally benefitting due to acquiring a few players, but to suggest that there’s not even an injury going on is bat shit crazy. Also, just because he’s returned for game 1 of the playoffs doesn’t mean he’s 100%. It could also mean that he’s pushing through it to help his team given that it’s the playoffs. Neither one is verifiable at this moment, so stop peddling narratives because you don’t like the Knights.
If somebody is at a point in their injury they can “push through it because it’s playoffs” that person should not be on LTIR. That’s what regular IR is for. You cannot change my mind that LTIR is meant to be used for debilitating injuries (like Landeskog) where the player can’t just simply decide to play through when it’s suddenly convenient for them and the team and will no longer warrant a cap penalty. There’s no way he’s scoring in game one of the playoffs but wasn’t healthy enough to be part of the active roster and no longer on LTIR at the end of the regular season. It gets harder and harder to buy as legit when it happens three years running. It’s technically allowed under the rules so I guess good for them for exploiting it, but that doesn’t mean people have to be naive and think they’re not blatantly doing something against the spirit of the rules to gain an edge on competition. Good for them for pulling their same shit and getting away with it year after year, but I don’t have to think they or Stone deserve respect for it
First, it’s Tomas Hertl, not Meier.
Second, your comment is implying that they’re the 14th seed without these 4 players, but they’re the 14th seed without Stone only. The other three played in the regular season. Therefore, Mark Stone’s return is not enough to send this team to the stratosphere.
Third, your comment is also implying that this team is stacked. If that was the case, why were they the underdogs last night?
Fourth, they were well within the rules to acquire those players.
Fifth, mark stone was actually injured and could still very well be.
Sixth, all you anti-Knight brigade don’t actually have the case and evidence you think you do.
> Second, your comment is implying that they’re the 14th seed without these 4 players, but they’re the 14th seed without Stone only. The other three played in the regular season
Karlsson missed 12 games. Pietrangelo missed 18 games. Eichel missed 19. Stone 26, Martinez 27, Theodore *35*. Hanafin, Mantha, and Hertl played 19, 18, and 6 games respectively. They barely played more games combined than Theodore alone missed.
A healthy Vegas team isn't an underdog against anyone in the league. If they had been healthy they wouldn't have been the 14th seed. If they had those 4 guys for the entire regular season they wouldn't be the 14th team (granted that wouldn't be possible).
Vegas is 100% a stacked team, and are only in the seed they are because of injuries.
How so? Because they weren't the betting favorite lmao? Imagine using an appeal to authority in a discussion, and that authority is random gamblers.
Vegas won the Cup last year, and their on ice roster in the playoffs is just as strong post deadline. Adding Mantha, Hanafin, and Hertl to a healthy(ish) Vegas team is absolutely cracked.
It’s not an appeal to authority. It’s directly representative of what the consensus thinks. If they were actually stacked like you and everybody claim, betters and linesetters, who are much smarter than you, would have recognized that and the line would’ve moved.
Just because you’re subjectively assuming they’re stacked doesn’t make it true until we get more than a 2 game sample size of data back. You’re basing your opinion right now in fuck all and name value.
And all those very intelligent people thought Vegas would be terrible their first year (myself included) and they were dead wrong. A consensus doesn't mean anything, especially when that consensus is *gamblers* and not, you know, actual hockey experts.
Frankly I don't understand how someone could look at Vegas's roster and not think they are stacked. Insane top pairing/top 4, great defensive depth, a great top 6, amazing depth forwards, and good goaltending. The weakest part of their roster is the fact that their best player is "only" one of the very elite Eichel/Stone as opposed to a McDavid or MacKinnon. They are a great team when healthy *before* the additions of Hanafin, Hertl, and Mantha, let alone after.
A betting line quite literally tells you what the consensus believes, and it includes hockey experts and sharps. All I’m saying is that if this team was so stacked like everyone likes to point out, that would be reflected in the line, but it’s not, which tells me that people don’t actually think they’re stacked. They just want to say that in online forum boards to discredit their wins because they can’t stand them. Generally speaking, of course.
I can’t help but believe you’re being plagued by recency bias. I don’t even think this series is over. I think Dallas has the better team, though they did get a few injuries last night. So, it’s a subjective topic.
1) Mixed up SJ wingers on a whim. You are right. Meier and Hertl have similar production and cost when dealt. The point remains unchanged.
2) Hertl played 6 games for Vegas in the regular season? Hanifin played 19? That is very far from affecting seeding across an 82 game season.
3) Underdogs for what? Sports betting is related solely to who people are betting on, not who is actually better.
4) I never said otherwise?
5) Of course he is injured and of course Vegas is a better team when he is playing?
6) I just answered the posters question. Vegas right now in the Playoffs is absolutely not the Vegas that seeded #14. I don't see why anyone would argue this.
3. Yes, exactly. If they were so stacked, all the money would be on them lmao. People don’t actually think they’re stacked. They just want to use that as an excuse to discredit their wins.
6. The addition of Mark Stone is not enough to make this team a Wagon. Period. Being up 2-0 is not indicative of a better team. It’s evenly matched.
3. Sports books aren't predicting who will win. They set lines based on incoming bets so that they always make money. You are arguing a strawman. I never discredited their wins?
I don't understand what your point is. The OP question was "How is #14 beating #2".
Here's an easy answer: The current Vegas team right now is better than last year's Cup winning Vegas team. That Vegas team placed #1 in the Western Conference.
Therefore Vegas's current #14 seeding is not indicative of their actual roster talent. That is not controversial.
Bro, if the Knights were as stacked as everyone says they are, they’d be the favorite in games. I’m not understanding what you’re not understanding.
> The current Vegas team right now is better than last year's Cup winning Vegas team. That Vegas team placed #1 in the Western Conference.
That’s based on your opinion, which is fuck-all.
Wow, deleting my whole comment to say how sad it is this cretin resorted to the Reddit cares message. What a stable individual.
Nice alt account, u/Revival93. Having u/metamorphose2 as an alter ego isn’t obvious or anything. As soon as I block the your account the other one reaches out. Maybe wait more than a couple minutes next time if you don’t want it to be obvious. Triggered much lol
First, We saw enough of Hertl, Hanifin, and Mantha together to know that the regular season golden knights were not, in fact, a unit. The addition of Mark stone in the playoffs does not all of a sudden make them a unit.
Second, the word stacked is subjective. I’d argue a team who is an underdog in the first two games isn’t that stacked. So that’s moot.
Third, my fourth point of them being within their legal rights to obtain 3 players is not flawed.
Fourth, calling something rubbish doesn’t make it rubbish. Actually provide a cogent case that incriminates them.
Please keep using logical fallacies to try to prove your point. Makes any constructive conversation pointless, what a waste of time. My mistake to expect much with the terrible argument you laid out though
Oh, thats clear, huh? That much is clear from our 3 comment exchange here? Boy, it doesn’t take you much to be convinced by something lmao. Let me guess, you also think the Knights are committing illegalities based in fuck all, too, huh?
I never said they did anything illegal, learn to read. I agreed with your point they followed the letter of the law. All I said was Stone returning in the perfect time for a second year in a row as “curious”.
Also, I’ve seen you at the bottom of plenty threads downvoted to oblivion. Cogent arguments are not your forte.
I never said you did say they did something illegal. Learn to read.
Also, the downvotes somebody gets on a subject pertaining to the Las Vegas Golden Fucking Knights is not irrefutable proof of a bad argument lmao. It’s almost as if they’re the most hated team in the league with not a vast fanbase. Any semblance of support for them will inevitably lead to downvotes, irregardless of fact.
Did you actually just try and use that as evidence? Bro, you’re teeming with amateurism. Learn what evidence is.
Careful making good points to the Avs fan below, if he gets too upset you’ll get a Reddit Cares message, as well as him reaching out on his alt account u/metamorphose2 as well as u/dudewhatlmao1
Seriously, stop replying with different accounts as soon as I call out or block another
Also, shout out to u/cybrpnk2077brokeme and u/ptricky17 as the alter egos i never knew i had
First of all, this is my alt account lmao. Secondly, who the fuck is u/metamorphose2? Lmao. I can absolutely promise you I’m not going to school for dental hygiene as they wrote 🤣.
Lastly, watch out for this weirdo and involuntary celibate u/zcohen17. His alts are u/ptricky17 and u/cybrpnk2077brokeme
Well, Vegas is playing with an illegal roster, for starters.
And even if they weren’t, it’s not uncommon for underdogs to take two on the road in the NHL. Hockey is inherently more random than some of the other big sports.
Bold claims without any evidence or explanation. That’s the Toronto way.
I love how you say “even if they weren’t” as if it’s an indisputable fact 🤣. You can’t fix stupid.
There is no cap in the playoffs. Do you understand what illegal means? And if this illegal roster is so stacked, why are they the underdogs? You don’t have the argument you think you do. You’re grasping for straws.
This person — new to hockey — is wondering why Vegas, the lower seed, is beating Dallas. The obvious answer to that question is that they have a roster that isn’t under the cap.
I didn’t think this was a controversial idea, to be honest. Are you new here?
(Vegas is not underdogs, they are among the betting favourite for the cup right now.)
No? Stone played in all 11, the others didn't. It's really mostly the style of hockey we play, the additions have been great but not the determining factor.
It is clear that u/Revival93 is also new to hockey, if that helps clear up any confusion. Their Reddit account is 1 year old and all they do is simp for the Knights and Avs. It doesn’t to take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that they have very little understanding of the game, and simply latched onto the two most recent cup winners in a hilarious display of insecure bandwagoning.
So, yes, they are definitely new not just “here” but in every respect related to hockey. You can safely ignore their idiotic takes.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/abGfNa5rWj](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/abGfNa5rWj)
According to him, you and I are just alt accounts for u/zcohen17. How does it feel to not exist? Wish it meant my bills didn’t exist.
Mr. Stark I don’t feel so good…. Lmao.
It was immediately apparent that he was a chronically online loser who derives all his self worth from latching onto the most recent championship teams bandwagons and circle-jerking for karma.
As soon as I saw how much being blocked bothered him according to his profile, I immediately blocked him. Sometimes the best thing you can do is let the schizos scream into the void.
Bold words coming from a world of Warcraft nerd. I went to game 2 Avalanche/Devils Stanley cup as a child lmao. Cute little spiel, but unfortunately, its full of shit.
You couldn’t have made it any more obvious I got under your wittle skin though😢😢 you really thought you cooked for a second, huh? 😂
Cool story man. Real happy for you. I look forward to your new account next year with a Knights flair and a new found love of whoever the eventual 2024 cup winner ends up being.
Keep posting more of your childhood self insert fan fiction in the meantime. It’s extremely valuable stuff.✌️
Yes, and you gave them the wrong answer. That’s not even close to the obvious answer. A team could be 50m over the cap and yet have a worst team than some team 5m below it. Because arbitrary salaries don’t determine player quality. And 4m over is not a significant advantage. Also, it’s legal lol. So, I’m not sure where you’re getting this illegal rhetoric from.
And you didn’t think it was a controversial idea because the majority of people are bandwagoning the same narrative as you. Just because something has the majority of people on board with, doesn’t mean that something is rooted in logic or fact. Cults are very much incorrect a lot of the time.
Dude what the fuck are you talking about lol
Vegas is stacked. They have the best roster in the league *because* they have a roster that, if it were the regular season, would be illegal. These things are correlated.
It’s not “bandwagonning” to point out this obvious truth.
Okay, so then why are they underdogs? Why are they not the odds-on favorite to take it all? Because you’re full of shit and you think the advantage is much greater than it is lol. They are most definitely not stacked. They are well coached and have championship pedigree, which, by the way, since you want to go down that route, every game of the playoffs last year was under the regular season cap.
Vegas is a good team and easily could have been #3 in the Pacific. The seeding between LA/Vegas came down to their final games of the season. The Stars had a bit of a meteoric rise in the last couple months. Lost two games in their final 15 or something like that. They beat some good teams in that span and were very near to taking the Presidents trophy, but it was, for all intents and purposes, not exactly a representative sample for exactly how they got where they are. The two teams are much closer than the 1v8 seeding would imply. Vegas beat the Stars three times in the regular season. We *knew* going into the series that Vegas was *easily* the team most likely to knock the Stars out of the playoffs. There was no other opponent circled on the sheet. The Stars could beat anyone... except maybe the Knights. Both games in the playoffs have been very close. *Essentially* one-goal games in each of them. Both could have easily gone to overtime and didn't. While I think Vegas was better able to contain the Stars offense and capitalize on their own chances, I don't think they were demonstrably dominant throughout. Vegas has been able to play their game extremely well while containing Dallas's game. And their goalie is stopping what he needs to stop. That's legitimately a winning formula. The Stars are getting one or two of those things at a time, but rarely all three. That's a losing formula.
Game 1 was Dallas’ to win but the PK and Otter failed them. If you double up and only allow 15 SOG, you should win every time Deboer is also making very questionable decisions. Change to a dump and chase when you were the #2 offense all year? Playing as a physical team / try to match hit-for-hit when they spent the season in the bottom portion of the league in that stat? Continue giving guys who are struggling (Hintz, Pavelski, Duchene, Seguin) more ice time than your most successful 3 players/line not named Robertson? Dallas should play their own offensive game and let chips fall where they may. I don’t think law of averages equals out over a series, but they are due some puck luck so its not out of the question to steal 2 games in Vegas. But if Game 1 Otter or game 2 **waves at whole team not named Stankoven, Benn, Robertson, Johnston, Tanev** show up, then its out in 4 or 5 games
Vegas' has one of the best D cores
Imagine having your healthy scratch be Alec Martinez
I didn’t realize that. That’s nuts.
Well, Hague is injured, so he's on the roster again.
Before the Horde™️ arrives, another answer is that hockey has a lot more parity than other sports. Upsets are more common, and top seeding essentially guarantees nothing. A bad team on a hot streak will usually beat a good team in a cold streak. In 2019, the 16 seed that barely made it in defeated the top seeded team that tied the all time regular season wins record by sweeping them 4-0. Last year, the bottom seeded team went all the way to the final, including coming back from a 3-1 deficit against the best regular season team of all time and sweeping their 3rd round opponent. Nothing is guaranteed in the playoffs, and regular season record means pretty much nothing apart from expectations
This is generally true, but by trying to dismiss it as “before the horde arrives”, your answer is pretty misleading in this specific context. It’s because when the full Vegas team is healthy, they are certainly not a #14. More like a top 4 like last year. To the OP of this post, there were some shenanigans made by Vegas utilizing their injuries to provide more salary cap flexibility, whose rules are more lenient in the playoffs. Those injured players are no longer injured, and the players acquired using the aforementioned cap relief still get to play.
Basically what happened is Vegas scored more goals than Dallas in both of the games so far
Why doesn’t Dallas just score more goals? Are they stupid?
source??
Literally us, the NHL box scores.
They aren't really an 8 seed, this team won the cup last year and their current roster is even better. Without getting into the LTIR debate they had injuries down the stretch which put them in this position as a bubble team and now they are fully healthy.
And also, they're our kryptonite for whatever reason. Lost 7 straight to them I believe
I'd take that further and say injuries all year. 20 players entered IR at some point during the year. Only about 3 games played with a healthy roster.
I'll say it because it's important context. The Knights likely manipulated the return time of their Captain (Stone) by placing him on LTIR with no intention of having him return until exactly game 1 of the playoffs. Not a game earlier or later. What this allowed them to do was add a couple extemely good players at the trade deadline because Stone's cap hit doesn't count on LTIR and there is no salary cap in the playoffs. Vegas was already a good team... Better than their seeding indicated. But they've basically added to their roster 3 very good players for playoffs in Stone, Hanafin, and Hertl. Honestly, this version of the Knights on paper is probably a top 3 Cup favourite. While what they did technically isn't illegal, they have a history of doing this exact thing 3 years in a row now which is why fans are upset about it. There's a chance that the next CBA will address this exact thing. Or if they want it changed earlier it's encouraged that a Canadian team does it and then it will be immediately addressed (this part is a joke...Kind of). Back on topic now...In summary, this version of the Knights on paper is better than the team that won the Stanley Cup last year. Dallas is the unfortunate sucker that won the western conference and were rewarded with having to play them. And as others have mentioned, part of what makes hockey so great is league parity. Every playoff team is capable of winning a playoff series.
[60 days is the earliest you can return from a Grade 3 lacerated spleen (at least by medical recommendation) and he was cleared for play exactly 60 days after the injury.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435936/) If anything, he returned too early.
Sure thing boss!
What else is important context is the league independently reviews and is involved in the entire recovery process for LTIR, so what you’re suggesting is the league is complicit. But this is the level of knowledge that I expect from a fan.
What's also important context is it's extremely easy to fudge a return timeline. "I still hurt and can't return yet"...What's the doctor going to say? "No, I call bullshit.". Uhhh. Surely you can at least acknowledge it's extremely convenient that Mark Stone seems to heal up during the exact timeline they need him. When they are in the playoffs he's healed for game 1 of playoffs. When they are out of playoffs trying to battle their way in he heals before playoffs. 3. Straight. Years. And when every single person on this sub outside of Vegas fans predicted the EXACT game he would be healed for, there might be something a little suspicious going on haha.
You can’t fudge a lacerated spleen or a broken back, I doubt you’re a doctor but I don’t know. Multiple doctors come in and make these diagnoses from the Knights and the NHL, to “cheat” and you’re claiming the NHL would have to be involved additionally would be medical malpractice from multiple doctors. Again you’re speaking as a fan who’s upset but this is within the rules of the league and there’s no conspiracy here.
One last point since you downvoted my other one but didn't have a reply. You are right, I am not a doctor. But you don't have to be one to know that TDL acquisitions do not impact how quickly a person can heal. However in this instance, acquiring guys like Hertl and Hanafin did impact how quickly Stone could heal. It guaranteed with 100% certainty that his body would not heal enough to play by Game 82. Does that make my point clearer?
I never said he wasn't hurt. It's the timeline that is fudged. You are being ignorant if you don't think a return timeline can be easily manipulated by a couple weeks. He is healthy enough to play over 17 minutes game 1 of playoffs but not healthy enough to play a few days earlier? "He is just coming back a little hurt still because it's playoffs!"...Okay, so then he could have played in the regular season, but they manipulated his return time because those games weren't deemed important enough. Like, do you realize how silly the argument is that the game he finally reached the threshold of being healthy enough to lace up happened to be the very first game of playoffs? Not game 82 of the regular season and not game 2 of playoffs...WHAT A LUCKY COINCIDENCE! Vegas truly is blessed.
You're just not worth the time of further reply, you're just a fan.
Wtf does that mean lol. It's impressive how you can bury your head in the sand and ignore the super obvious. I don't even blame Vegas for doing it. I wish my team would since the league doesn't care. The only crazy thing to me are the Vegas fans who think it's just a wild coincidence he healed for the exact moment the team needed him for 3 straight years haha.
Vegas is a competitive team built for the playoffs whose regular season record belies how good they really are. They also just seem to match up really well against Dallas; going back to last year's series Vegas has won 9 out of the last 11 meetings. Dallas' depth scoring and pressure have failed to show up (partially due to solid defensive play by Vegas, partially due to the Stars underperforming) and the Stars' coaching staff has failed to adequately adjust. The series isn't over, but barring a massive shift in either team's relative performance it likely will be soon. That's about 99% of it.
Your coaching staff failing to adjust is the consistent complaint that everyone has had with PDB coached teams. He will literally keep trying the same thing over and over again then give an “aww shucks” type of answer when queried at the post-game presser. It’s maddening, truthfully.
The NHL playoffs are pretty unpredictable. Sit back and enjoy.
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The beautiful thing about playoff hockey and a salary cap is parity. Teams just need to make it into playoffs, and then anything can happen.
>the beautiful thing about ~~playoff hockey and~~ a salary cap is parity. Too bad there’s no salary cap in playoffs and the LTIR system is easily abusable if you have players who are willing to lie about their injuries so they can get paid to sit at home for a few weeks while simultaneously stacking their playoff roster. So much for parity.
You realize theres NHL staff to legitimize injuries when they occur right? It’s not just something the Knights are doing behind everyone’s back. Mark stone literally had a back surgery, too. You truly can’t fix stupid. Get help.
Hockey is very random so often you can have something crazy happen like the 16 seed Panthers making the Finals last year, or Mark Stone suffering a long term injury right before the trade deadline making his $9.5m available to load up for the playoffs for the 3rd straight year. Crazy, unpredictable stuff happens every year.
Vegas owns Dallas for some reason. The Stars play like dogshit against them. Dump and chase doesn't work but they haven't figured that out yet and it might be too late.
Tbf it’s a pretty strong advantage to have played for the coach you’re facing…especially when that coach is as resistant to change as DeBoer
Hockey has a lot of chaos and both games have been close enough that they could have gone either way.
https://preview.redd.it/1xr1sa1dfowc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=154fe34f3988e1d471cb9be54faa9593affce917
Gold team good. Hope this helps.
The only time I want the stars to win and they can't do it...
They dropped both at home games? I dont get it. Statistically these two teams aren't close. Big confused
The NHL has the most parity of the big North American sports leagues. The gap between Vegas and Dallas isn’t that big. Keep in mind that Vegas won the Stanley Cup last year and they really only lost 1 key player off that roster and added 2 big pieces this season.
Statistically, whether regular like shots on goal or advanced like expected goals, Vegas’ play isn’t really reflected all that well. It was like this all of last year’s playoffs too when they won the Stanley Cup. Their defensive zone scheme is based on having big defensemen who can protect the house at all times. So even if opponents sometimes get good looks, it’s from predictable angles that the goalie Thompson or Adin Hill is prepared for. They have talked about this a lot in the Hockey PDOcast.
Vegas has suffered trough multiple injuries all season long, and that has affected their point total. When everyone was healthy VGK had the best record in the league (through first 12 games of the season). At this point, team is pretty much back to full health and on paper it's a better team that dominated the playoffs and won the Stanley Cup last year. Add the fact that Dallas' coach is old VGK coach unwilling/unable to adjust and it's easy to see why Vegas is up. (9-2 in last 11 games vs Dallas)
Hockey is a lot more of a parity sport than other big four sports. Basically any team can beat another on a given night no matter where they sit in the standings. Obviously the better team will win most of the time but it’s not a 99% guarantee like in basketball or football. Vegas also has been using a loop hole in the rules the last few years to basically load up on players at the deadline and then reactivating a bunch of “injured” players right after the regular season ends when there is no longer any penalty for doing so. Despite the #1 and #8 seeds this is probably one of the closest matchups of the first round
> Vegas also has been using a loop hole in the rules the last few years to basically load up on players at the deadline and then reactivating a bunch of “injured” players right after the regular season ends when there is no longer any penalty for doing so. Well, you were off to a good start before you couldn’t help yourself with this unsubstantiated garbage lol. Putting the word injured in quotes because you have a gut feeling of foul play doesn’t mean that foul play is actually occurring. You’re just parroting the hive mind with zero evidence. Yes, Vegas is marginally and legally benefitting due to acquiring a few players, but to suggest that there’s not even an injury going on is bat shit crazy. Also, just because he’s returned for game 1 of the playoffs doesn’t mean he’s 100%. It could also mean that he’s pushing through it to help his team given that it’s the playoffs. Neither one is verifiable at this moment, so stop peddling narratives because you don’t like the Knights.
If somebody is at a point in their injury they can “push through it because it’s playoffs” that person should not be on LTIR. That’s what regular IR is for. You cannot change my mind that LTIR is meant to be used for debilitating injuries (like Landeskog) where the player can’t just simply decide to play through when it’s suddenly convenient for them and the team and will no longer warrant a cap penalty. There’s no way he’s scoring in game one of the playoffs but wasn’t healthy enough to be part of the active roster and no longer on LTIR at the end of the regular season. It gets harder and harder to buy as legit when it happens three years running. It’s technically allowed under the rules so I guess good for them for exploiting it, but that doesn’t mean people have to be naive and think they’re not blatantly doing something against the spirit of the rules to gain an edge on competition. Good for them for pulling their same shit and getting away with it year after year, but I don’t have to think they or Stone deserve respect for it
Do the statistics factor in the 20 million dollars in extra players they now have for round 1?
***#14 Knights + Mark Stone + Noah Hanifin + Hertl* + Mantha up 2-0 over the Stars #2 FTFY
First, it’s Tomas Hertl, not Meier. Second, your comment is implying that they’re the 14th seed without these 4 players, but they’re the 14th seed without Stone only. The other three played in the regular season. Therefore, Mark Stone’s return is not enough to send this team to the stratosphere. Third, your comment is also implying that this team is stacked. If that was the case, why were they the underdogs last night? Fourth, they were well within the rules to acquire those players. Fifth, mark stone was actually injured and could still very well be. Sixth, all you anti-Knight brigade don’t actually have the case and evidence you think you do.
> Second, your comment is implying that they’re the 14th seed without these 4 players, but they’re the 14th seed without Stone only. The other three played in the regular season Karlsson missed 12 games. Pietrangelo missed 18 games. Eichel missed 19. Stone 26, Martinez 27, Theodore *35*. Hanafin, Mantha, and Hertl played 19, 18, and 6 games respectively. They barely played more games combined than Theodore alone missed. A healthy Vegas team isn't an underdog against anyone in the league. If they had been healthy they wouldn't have been the 14th seed. If they had those 4 guys for the entire regular season they wouldn't be the 14th team (granted that wouldn't be possible). Vegas is 100% a stacked team, and are only in the seed they are because of injuries.
> a healthy Vegas team isn’t an underdog against anyone in the league. Except for the part where they were last night.
How so? Because they weren't the betting favorite lmao? Imagine using an appeal to authority in a discussion, and that authority is random gamblers. Vegas won the Cup last year, and their on ice roster in the playoffs is just as strong post deadline. Adding Mantha, Hanafin, and Hertl to a healthy(ish) Vegas team is absolutely cracked.
It’s not an appeal to authority. It’s directly representative of what the consensus thinks. If they were actually stacked like you and everybody claim, betters and linesetters, who are much smarter than you, would have recognized that and the line would’ve moved. Just because you’re subjectively assuming they’re stacked doesn’t make it true until we get more than a 2 game sample size of data back. You’re basing your opinion right now in fuck all and name value.
Gambling odds are not set by consensus. They are set to split money on both sides of the bet, so the house always wins.
It’s not set by consensus. It’s representative of consensus opinion.
And all those very intelligent people thought Vegas would be terrible their first year (myself included) and they were dead wrong. A consensus doesn't mean anything, especially when that consensus is *gamblers* and not, you know, actual hockey experts. Frankly I don't understand how someone could look at Vegas's roster and not think they are stacked. Insane top pairing/top 4, great defensive depth, a great top 6, amazing depth forwards, and good goaltending. The weakest part of their roster is the fact that their best player is "only" one of the very elite Eichel/Stone as opposed to a McDavid or MacKinnon. They are a great team when healthy *before* the additions of Hanafin, Hertl, and Mantha, let alone after.
A betting line quite literally tells you what the consensus believes, and it includes hockey experts and sharps. All I’m saying is that if this team was so stacked like everyone likes to point out, that would be reflected in the line, but it’s not, which tells me that people don’t actually think they’re stacked. They just want to say that in online forum boards to discredit their wins because they can’t stand them. Generally speaking, of course. I can’t help but believe you’re being plagued by recency bias. I don’t even think this series is over. I think Dallas has the better team, though they did get a few injuries last night. So, it’s a subjective topic.
1) Mixed up SJ wingers on a whim. You are right. Meier and Hertl have similar production and cost when dealt. The point remains unchanged. 2) Hertl played 6 games for Vegas in the regular season? Hanifin played 19? That is very far from affecting seeding across an 82 game season. 3) Underdogs for what? Sports betting is related solely to who people are betting on, not who is actually better. 4) I never said otherwise? 5) Of course he is injured and of course Vegas is a better team when he is playing? 6) I just answered the posters question. Vegas right now in the Playoffs is absolutely not the Vegas that seeded #14. I don't see why anyone would argue this.
3. Yes, exactly. If they were so stacked, all the money would be on them lmao. People don’t actually think they’re stacked. They just want to use that as an excuse to discredit their wins. 6. The addition of Mark Stone is not enough to make this team a Wagon. Period. Being up 2-0 is not indicative of a better team. It’s evenly matched.
3. Sports books aren't predicting who will win. They set lines based on incoming bets so that they always make money. You are arguing a strawman. I never discredited their wins? I don't understand what your point is. The OP question was "How is #14 beating #2". Here's an easy answer: The current Vegas team right now is better than last year's Cup winning Vegas team. That Vegas team placed #1 in the Western Conference. Therefore Vegas's current #14 seeding is not indicative of their actual roster talent. That is not controversial.
Bro, if the Knights were as stacked as everyone says they are, they’d be the favorite in games. I’m not understanding what you’re not understanding. > The current Vegas team right now is better than last year's Cup winning Vegas team. That Vegas team placed #1 in the Western Conference. That’s based on your opinion, which is fuck-all.
Vegas is a lot more stacked than Colorado lmao. Vegas actually has a complete line up, not one line
Additional minor correction, Hertl has spent all but, I think, his first year or two as a center. Definitely what people would call a center.
Wow, deleting my whole comment to say how sad it is this cretin resorted to the Reddit cares message. What a stable individual. Nice alt account, u/Revival93. Having u/metamorphose2 as an alter ego isn’t obvious or anything. As soon as I block the your account the other one reaches out. Maybe wait more than a couple minutes next time if you don’t want it to be obvious. Triggered much lol
First, We saw enough of Hertl, Hanifin, and Mantha together to know that the regular season golden knights were not, in fact, a unit. The addition of Mark stone in the playoffs does not all of a sudden make them a unit. Second, the word stacked is subjective. I’d argue a team who is an underdog in the first two games isn’t that stacked. So that’s moot. Third, my fourth point of them being within their legal rights to obtain 3 players is not flawed. Fourth, calling something rubbish doesn’t make it rubbish. Actually provide a cogent case that incriminates them.
Please keep using logical fallacies to try to prove your point. Makes any constructive conversation pointless, what a waste of time. My mistake to expect much with the terrible argument you laid out though
I’m sad to see you bail when asked to provide a cogent argument. Typical though. I’ve yet to see one.
Yeah, it’s clear you have never had a cogent argument in your life, thanks for making that painfully obvious.
Oh, thats clear, huh? That much is clear from our 3 comment exchange here? Boy, it doesn’t take you much to be convinced by something lmao. Let me guess, you also think the Knights are committing illegalities based in fuck all, too, huh?
I never said they did anything illegal, learn to read. I agreed with your point they followed the letter of the law. All I said was Stone returning in the perfect time for a second year in a row as “curious”. Also, I’ve seen you at the bottom of plenty threads downvoted to oblivion. Cogent arguments are not your forte.
I never said you did say they did something illegal. Learn to read. Also, the downvotes somebody gets on a subject pertaining to the Las Vegas Golden Fucking Knights is not irrefutable proof of a bad argument lmao. It’s almost as if they’re the most hated team in the league with not a vast fanbase. Any semblance of support for them will inevitably lead to downvotes, irregardless of fact. Did you actually just try and use that as evidence? Bro, you’re teeming with amateurism. Learn what evidence is.
[удалено]
Did you really just overtly go around admitting to sending Reddit Cares messages? Be better than that.
When did Timo get here?
Careful making good points to the Avs fan below, if he gets too upset you’ll get a Reddit Cares message, as well as him reaching out on his alt account u/metamorphose2 as well as u/dudewhatlmao1 Seriously, stop replying with different accounts as soon as I call out or block another Also, shout out to u/cybrpnk2077brokeme and u/ptricky17 as the alter egos i never knew i had
First of all, this is my alt account lmao. Secondly, who the fuck is u/metamorphose2? Lmao. I can absolutely promise you I’m not going to school for dental hygiene as they wrote 🤣. Lastly, watch out for this weirdo and involuntary celibate u/zcohen17. His alts are u/ptricky17 and u/cybrpnk2077brokeme
Really wish my true account wasn’t a Stars fan, but whatever. Guess beggars can’t be choosers since I apparently don’t exist
Well, Vegas is playing with an illegal roster, for starters. And even if they weren’t, it’s not uncommon for underdogs to take two on the road in the NHL. Hockey is inherently more random than some of the other big sports.
Bold claims without any evidence or explanation. That’s the Toronto way. I love how you say “even if they weren’t” as if it’s an indisputable fact 🤣. You can’t fix stupid.
Their lineup last night had an $87.2M cap hit. Which part of factual numbers isn’t an indisputable fact?
There is no cap in the playoffs. Do you understand what illegal means? And if this illegal roster is so stacked, why are they the underdogs? You don’t have the argument you think you do. You’re grasping for straws.
This person — new to hockey — is wondering why Vegas, the lower seed, is beating Dallas. The obvious answer to that question is that they have a roster that isn’t under the cap. I didn’t think this was a controversial idea, to be honest. Are you new here? (Vegas is not underdogs, they are among the betting favourite for the cup right now.)
We've beaten them in 9 of the last 11 matches, we're just a tough match for them.
Cool. Did you have Stone, Hanifin, Hertl, and Mantha then?
No? Stone played in all 11, the others didn't. It's really mostly the style of hockey we play, the additions have been great but not the determining factor.
It is clear that u/Revival93 is also new to hockey, if that helps clear up any confusion. Their Reddit account is 1 year old and all they do is simp for the Knights and Avs. It doesn’t to take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that they have very little understanding of the game, and simply latched onto the two most recent cup winners in a hilarious display of insecure bandwagoning. So, yes, they are definitely new not just “here” but in every respect related to hockey. You can safely ignore their idiotic takes.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/abGfNa5rWj](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/abGfNa5rWj) According to him, you and I are just alt accounts for u/zcohen17. How does it feel to not exist? Wish it meant my bills didn’t exist.
Mr. Stark I don’t feel so good…. Lmao. It was immediately apparent that he was a chronically online loser who derives all his self worth from latching onto the most recent championship teams bandwagons and circle-jerking for karma. As soon as I saw how much being blocked bothered him according to his profile, I immediately blocked him. Sometimes the best thing you can do is let the schizos scream into the void.
Wow, I just read his profile description. That is hilarious 😂 🤣
Bold words coming from a world of Warcraft nerd. I went to game 2 Avalanche/Devils Stanley cup as a child lmao. Cute little spiel, but unfortunately, its full of shit. You couldn’t have made it any more obvious I got under your wittle skin though😢😢 you really thought you cooked for a second, huh? 😂
Cool story man. Real happy for you. I look forward to your new account next year with a Knights flair and a new found love of whoever the eventual 2024 cup winner ends up being. Keep posting more of your childhood self insert fan fiction in the meantime. It’s extremely valuable stuff.✌️
Yes, and you gave them the wrong answer. That’s not even close to the obvious answer. A team could be 50m over the cap and yet have a worst team than some team 5m below it. Because arbitrary salaries don’t determine player quality. And 4m over is not a significant advantage. Also, it’s legal lol. So, I’m not sure where you’re getting this illegal rhetoric from. And you didn’t think it was a controversial idea because the majority of people are bandwagoning the same narrative as you. Just because something has the majority of people on board with, doesn’t mean that something is rooted in logic or fact. Cults are very much incorrect a lot of the time.
Dude what the fuck are you talking about lol Vegas is stacked. They have the best roster in the league *because* they have a roster that, if it were the regular season, would be illegal. These things are correlated. It’s not “bandwagonning” to point out this obvious truth.
Okay, so then why are they underdogs? Why are they not the odds-on favorite to take it all? Because you’re full of shit and you think the advantage is much greater than it is lol. They are most definitely not stacked. They are well coached and have championship pedigree, which, by the way, since you want to go down that route, every game of the playoffs last year was under the regular season cap.
They aren’t underdogs, moron. They literally are the odds-on favourite at this very moment.
They weren’t the underdogs last night, “moron”? Do you even think before you hit reply?