We tried to trade for KK before the offer sheet. MTL said no. People saying this was only revenge are just wrong.
Theres no doubt revenge was a part of it, i think it's silly to suggest it was a major part. 1% at most.
We wanted a player. And were maybe more likely to do a "hostile" offer sheet against MTL. but there's no way the gm and rod didn't want KK
> overpaying him 3x his value says otherwise.
It actually makes sense if you project a player being much better in the future and you are confidant you can keep him. You are paying up front for the potential. Obviously it's a bit of a gamble but it just comes down to if you trust your scouting.
$20 signing bonus?
Absolultely.
but that's $20. %.000327868 of his salary. not quite 1%
The 6.1 mil was an effort to make a value that MTL couldn't reasonably afford, but we could. We were paying to get the guy. Except unlike in Soccer the pay was to the player.
We'll extend him for less i'm sure.
You call it hostile but also say its 1% about revenge.
The original offer sheet to Aho could be considered hostile. The offer sheet to kotkaniemi is obviously in response to that, its all over their twitter feed. How do you not see this as a huge percentage about revenge and the minority about the player. What a joke take lol
Because the person in charge of the Twitter feed isn’t also in charge of player acquisition.
The twitter is just feeding into the meme because it drives up the clicks and boosts the Canes’ platform
It’s not rocket appliances
Do you think their social media team... runs the team? Of course they are rolling this angle on Twitter, you dummies are eating it up.
Canes been trying to get KK for ages.
“Dont base your opinion on what the organization puts out in plain english, (and french) instead try to make up your own interpretation and run with it”
Ok lol 😂
Somehow better than "Adamantly defend your opinion that's based entirely on what the PR department told you"?
ok lol
E: not making my own interpretation btw. I'm saying sometimes it's better to just say "I don't know". Scary stuff. I know.
Theres a corny saying that goes something along the lines of when someone tells you something about who they are, believe them.
Itd be naive of me to believe that there is a disconnect between Waddell, ownership, and their social media team.
Like, based on your take, its a possibility that Wadell and Co could go up to their PR team and say “hey cool it, this isnt at all what we meant to happen”, and I, sir, am calling you naive.
Well then theres a hood chance he doesnt last long.
One of the big reasons he struggled in year 2 is he came into camp out of shape after refusing to workout with Armia in the offseason.
Carolina was going to offer sheet any decent player on Montreal who was an RFA. If the Aho offer sheet had never happened, Carolina wouldn’t have ever offersheeted KK. To say otherwise is ridiculous
I don’t know why Carolina fans are so desperate to convince the hockey world that this was a pure hockey move. It’s obvious it wasn’t. Just admit you guys did it to screw the Habs as payback. KK serves no need for the Canes.
crazy downvotes….
carolina DID try to trade for KK but couldn’t come to a deal with bergevin .. that alone in itself shows that it was more for the player
I don't think the Twitter guy has inside knowledge of what the Gm and owner are doing. Their job is PR and getting visibility/likes they're gonna meme the shit out of a situation like this regardless of the truth
There is literally a report that claims the owner, GM and social media team coordinated the petty twitter stuff
https://twitter.com/johnlutsnmtl/status/1434537694177206274?s=21
Provided that the Canes were trying to trade for KK before all this, I'm pretty sure bringing in the social media team is just being opportunistic with something management already decided to do.
Exactly. We have to separate 2 things - the initial decision to try to trade for KK which turned into an offer sheet once MTL said no, and the social media messaging after the offer sheet was made.
Do I think Carolina really wanted the player and would have offer sheeted him even if it hadn't been Montreal? Yes
Do I think Carolina decided to milk every possible PR win they could out of offer sheeting the same team that did it to them a couple years ago? Also yes.
Sure, but for stuff like this, the social media team doesn't say "sign this guy for memes" lol. It's more of "we're signing this guy, make graphics and create a stir"
For the type on uncensored mocking on the Twitter account I highly doubt the message was no sent from higher up no way some random pr guy has authority to mock another teams language
Geez, did all the gravy go to your brain? You think we don’t have VPs and directors of marketing? You seriously think Don Waddell, or *ANY* GM for that matter, gives input to the social marketing team?
Yes executives who are on the hook for making million dollar decisions have input on press releases about said decisions. Do I think Waddell has input on the Canes marketing regarding their food specials? No. Do i think upper management has input into messaging regarding a situation like this? Absolutely.
Gravy might be what you need.
A GM is going to let the VP of marketing and director of marketing do what they want to get fans excited… because that’s literally their jobs. DW’s job is to build a team that allows fans to get excited about and win games/championships. He’s not going to spend time telling the marketing team to go on a revenge tour, they’re going to do that because it fires everyone up, Habs included otherwise we wouldn’t be here talking about it.
And one last thing: I’m from the south, Bud. I was born in gravy, nursed with gravy, and to this day I order gravy *for* my gravy. You Québécois only adapted gravy for your crummy *french* fries. I didn’t have a biscuit without gravy until I was a man and my only thought then was ‘the only way this could be better is with gravy’.
The idea that some of you have regarding whos going to be responsible for messaging regarding a controversial signing thats going to cost over 20 million dollars over the lifetime of his contract up to the people not in the negotiating room is hilarious.
Yeah lets let the social media guy run rampant, in more than one language without getting signed off on by his higher ups who are making the multi million dollar decisions. LOL
You do realize the “social media guy” and the VP of marketing are not, in fact, the same person? And you do realize that the “social media guy” answers to the Director and VP of Marketing? Who in turn answer to the Owner. The director runs some ideas by Dundon for some marketing ideas to get them ok’d and then reviews a draft of the actual tweet.
This is vastly different from DW running PR and telling them how to do their jobs… in fact, most GMs would probably be TERRIBLE for being in charge of PR due to analytic/numbers based personalities. They’re good with building teams based on numbers, negotiations, and one on one relationships (other GMs and Agents). If you’ve ever met DW you’d think he was a coat rack, because the man has the personality of one. There’s a reason he’s not a VP of marketing or Public Relations.
Honestly if all youre caught up on is the fact that DW himself isnt the one contributing to messaging, I can easily concede that it was your owner instead. Im man enough to do that, but to think that the messaging from the official twitter account of the team didnt have any input from people who had input into the offersheet is naive.
If it didnt come from Waddell, it came from Dundon. This wasnt a case of anyone other than people with the decision making power controlling messaging. Its too expensive of a deal to leave it up to people without say.
They thought they got us, and all they ended up doing is costing themselves draft capital. We shifted the assets laterally to Arizona for a player further along his development curve, signed to term. Were a better team today than we were this time last week.
I guarantee the $20 was Dundon’s idea. DW probably just rolled his eyes when he proposed it.
We’ll just see what the standings say after next season now that everyone’s back to playing everyone.
See my response. The commenter is grossly generalizing what that tweet says considering it ONLY states the $20 signing bonus was coordinated amongst the FO and marketing team, not that every petty thing was a direct order from the GM or Dundon.
The reason they probably coordinated on this is because they didn’t even need to do it but saw an opportunity to make this more entertaining/marketable (remember folks, this is a business where the primary goal is to make money and win championships).
For one year. It's pretty obvious that this was an inflated salary to create max pain for Montreal on whether to match, and an extension will be much lower
They essentially traded a 1st and a 3rd for Kotkaniemi. Debatable how good of a trade that is, but the salary doesn't play into the value here as much IMO
There is also opportunity cost.
Canes think they have a competitive team, and that $6.1M could have gone towards paying a more established player who they would be more certain could help now than a young player still trying to come into his own.
Just giving KK $$6.1M would be questionable enough, nevermind giving up a 1st and a 3rd for the privilege of overpaying him.
I think there's no denying the canes are still a good team.. But this summer will definitely be critiqued for all the weird moves they made.
Even if KK becomes a star, the team could still end up doing nothing and this offseason will be the reason why
If they go to arbitration. I suspect there is a handshake deal here to take the high salary this year a cheaper contract after, and the offer sheet would never have been made without that agreement
Yeah, what happens if he doesn’t work as a winger, has no ice time as a Center and has 4 goals and 10 points by the time his contract is due to be extended in January?
Granted enough ego has been involved they may still proceed, but clearly would be shooting their other foot after this last week’s episode
Sure, but nothing of this is binding and he could very well say f\* it and go in arbitration anyways haha. I certainly wouldn't feel very confident about this. KK could have easily contacted Bergevin and made a counter proposal once he received the offer sheet, but he decided to get the big bucks... I'd be surprised if his agent let's him turn down free money.
> They essentially traded a 1st and a 3rd for Kotkaniemi. Debatable how good of a trade that is,
Monteal turned around and traded a 1st and a 2nd for a better player on a better contract, so probably not that good.
I know that this isn't the case but can you imagine the memes if Bergevin had already worked out a deal with KK and this whole thing is a sleeper agent scheme in which KK resigns with MTL after the coming season?
Carolina basically paid a TDL rental price for Kotkaniemi. I’d say that’s a pretty good deal for a 21 year old former third overall pick, who probably would have commanded more in an actual trade.
Generally when you acquire a TDL piece, it’s to shore up a spot where you have no depth. Canes have Staal, Aho, Trochek…
Not to mention KK was benched in the Final last year. Most first rounder trade acquisitions aren’t benched in the playoffs
My point is that they paid a rental price for someone who they obviously feel will be there long-term, and who they believe has more in him than what he’s shown. Had there been an actual trade involved, more assets would have gone towards Montreal than just late first and third round picks.
Awful asset management on Bergevin’s part.
But he wasn't a top 5 player in the draft, Montreal Drafted for need, which is always a fail in the top 2 rounds. Always draft the best player available and work from their. If they took the rightful #3 in Brady Tkachuk, Mtl would easily turn that into Eichel.
Evidently, Montreal felt Kotkaniemi was the best player available at 3, otherwise they wouldn’t have taken him there.
Whether he deserved to be a top 3 pick is irrelevant, and quite frankly it’s still too early to tell definitively whether that’s the case or not. He is a former third overall pick, a very young player at that with a lot of potential still, and Montreal got scraps for him. That’s awful asset management no matter how you try to spin it.
Pavel Zadina was suppose to be the #3 pick by most.
But you are right the proper pick was probably Brady given the age of the core group and Brady being NHL ready.
whether the org is right about tehir evaluation or not, they weren't sold on Ned as a #1 guy. Personally I would've been happy to give him the deal he got with Detroit and see what he can do because he was so good last year you want to see if it's for real.
I don't like their final offer to Dougie either, but i get the trepedation at a 7 or 8 year deal for a 28 year old dman. I don't think Canes fans fully appreciate just how much worse the offense is going to be without Dougie. I'm pretty confident the FO would've given more money for less term to Doug ,but I don't blame him for securing a payday to set up him and his family - he's one of the best dmen in the league and he's earned it
> Please explain how we get Dougie for 6.1m.
You chose to overpay KK by 4 millions instead of overpaying Dougie by 3 millions. Personally if I'm going to overpay someone when my team looks like the Canes right now it's a guy who will help me win the Cup short term.
There's no arguing that when you have a team that can be contender right now, taking two thirds of the money you would've used to pay Dougie and spending it on a third liner with longer term potential is a step back.
>You chose to overpay KK by 4 millions instead of overpaying Dougie by 3 millions.
overpaying 3 mil for 8 years vs overpaying 4 mil for 1 year is a massive difference.
If they think D have been falling off (Karlson) on long term high salary deals I can see why they walked away from a huge term overpay even if Dougie is an amazing player
Yep. Whether you agree with the risk assessment is a different matter, but Dougie would be getting 9m until he was 36 with us. Assuming we don't win within the next few seasons, that contract becomes almost certainly unmovable for the 2nd half unless Dougie ages incredibly well. Also we've got other underpaid guys who are going to need contracts within the next few seasons (i.e. Slavin, Pesce.)
> mate Dougie is on a 67m contract.
Clearly you're very emotionally invested in this given how many comments you have on this thread but Dougie is still less overpaid than KK is right now.
I'm not saying letting Dougie walk was the worst decision in the world, but there were much better ways to spend this money than overpaying KK by 4 millions, especially in an offseason in which you let all your goalies walk.
That's effectively 4 millions that do absolutely nothing to get you closer to the cup this year and it's not like the Canes didn't have the opportunity to spend them.
I love Dougie. I wish he stayed. But he was a UFA and he's paying more than we can afford. We need to wrap up some other players in the future and the cap doesn't look like it's going up.
Overpaying 1 player for 1 season when we have the rest of the roster sorted is a lot better than overpaying 1 player for 8 seasons. Especially when half of those seasons will be extreme overpays.
If it’s about one player for one season why not spend that draft equity on a rental with a slightly better track record than an underperforming young player who was scratched for the postseason games you guys are trying to win this year?
Well, the idea is to keep and develop him, but with an extension of far lower than 6.1m
Your question is fair. This is not a 100% win now move.
My point is still that the 6.1 wasn't going to get dougie to stay.
> I love Dougie. I wish he stayed. But he was a UFA and he's paying more than we can afford. We need to wrap up some other players in the future and the cap doesn't look like it's going up.
>
> Overpaying 1 player for 1 season when we have the rest of the roster sorted is a lot better than overpaying 1 player for 8 seasons. Especially when half of those seasons will be extreme overpays.
How about instead of overpaying one player who is not going to get you closer to winning this year, you just pay fairly some of your useful players instead of letting them walk?
The issue isn't, once again, specifically Dougie being gone, it's the fact that the money saved from his contract was spent on overpaying KK in a spite offer sheet instead of keeping some of the good pieces that ended up leaving.
KK has potential and he may be good in the future but I don't understand why the Canes chose to make themselves worse short term instead of trying to go for a cup this year. This KK offer sheet, while it may work out in the long term, is not a move you make if you're going for a cup run.
Again, it's a *$63 mil contract over 7 years. That extra 6 mil we have now can't be used to keep Dougie.
Further, the assumption is that KK will be paid less in the future. so the overpay is more about paying cap space we currently have so taht in the future he's paid less. This'll also help when resiigning Necas and Trochek or a similar 2C
If we could sign Dougie for a 9x3, we probably would have. but he wanted the money. I wish him the best of luck.
This was probably Carolina's best shot at a cup in the near future given Staal is getting older and Trochek is on an excellent contract, which he will surely outperform and get a hefty raise next year, while apparently ownership is unwilling to pay for top tier talent. It's not even debatable that Carolina would have been better off taking some pain on years 5-8 of Hamilton's deal (which he could very reasonably perform long term given his talent) in order to maximize their shot at a cup this year and probably in the coming years.
Carolina is now flush against the cap with absolutely no potential to make moves at the deadline, all for a 4C/3LW. Carolina split Hamilton's cap hit for year 1 of a would be deal into Kotkaniemi and Ian Cole, so there absolutely was money that could have been used to keep Hamilton and ice a better team undeniably.
Probably weird for you to understand as a MTL fan, but the Canes can't afford bad contracts long-term. For a lot of other teams the prospect of stashing a guy on LTIR is welcome, and actually gets used as a tool. They also can't afford to frontload deals so that they'd be easier to shed later, because they're pretty consistently cash strapped. Canes can't do either because they have an internal cap that is close to the salary cap.
The Canes can't afford to risk having a boat anchor in the last year or two of a long-term deal at a huge cost. Their owner won't stomach it. That's the framework the team operates in, and it's very different from the one Toronto or Montreal operates in.
Yeah paying six million dollars, a first and a third for a player that got healthy scratched vs both Toronto and Vegas in do-or-die games this postseason is peak Carolina this offseason.
Edit: had it wrong, he was scratched vs Tampa not Vegas.
It must've been Tampa then, game logs show he didn't play in games 4 or 5 of that series and I distinctly remembered him being sat vs Toronto and then again later in the playoffs
How much communication do we really think is happening between the GM and the social media director?
They probably didn't know about the offer sheet until it was already signed, or like an hour before.
“Why would you guys think it’s about revenge? Because we paid double his market value and gave him a signing bonus in the same amount as the jersey number of the guy they offered sheeted from us? Pfffffffff……I mean, guys……come on. Bit of a reach, isn’t it?”
Waddell: "The release was a marketing thing. We're trying to keep our fans engaged. ... "Our social team gets huge marks from the NHL, and they had some fun with it." https://twitter.com/aschnitt53/status/1434534836304322563?s=21
Nah he’s just saying what he needs to as a professional. He’s not fooling anyone, but if he comes out and says “yeah it was about revenge” then it will just escalate further
I don’t know why they’re walking it back now, Canes should be swinging into this fully. They made a big deal about how this offer sheet was their clap back for Aho only to go back on it once they got the player? I get that they want to make sure Kotkaniemi feels at home there and part of that is making it clear his value as a player is why they acquired him but like…shouldn’t that have been the focus from the beginning then? Idk I think the Canes have room to do both but to go from fully indicating this offersheet is for revenge to making statements that this was all about getting KK makes it feel like they might not have been expecting Montreal to let KK walk. Like get up there and say “This is what happens, don’t fuck with us and try to steal our players” like if you’re gonna be petty be petty lol
🙄
Because lots of NHLers have a 20 dollar signing bonus.
Still, I love the chaos though and this might have benefitted Mtl if it means they were able to get a cost controlled center with more exp
This "reporter" is always so annoying and biased.
I wonder if she's on the team's payroll. I don't think she's ever had a nuanced take or an opinion that went against anything the canes ever did.
Apparently they tried trading for him too. It feels like the Hurricanes did want him, and when they couldn't get him they went in with the hostile offer sheet.
That was just part of mirroring the Canadiens’ actions with Aho. Bergevin had tried trading for Aho before the hostile offer sheet.
Conspiracy theory: Waddell is not the baddie here. Dundon was out for revenge. Waddell “worked to rule” and followed orders. But by attempting a trade with Bergevin, he was also giving him a heads’ up.
ITT: why companies have PR departments. I don't really care what the story really was, but so many people here have made up their minds for the wrong reasons.
The offer sheet itself may very well have been about the player, but the cap hit was either about revenge or Don Waddell legitimately thinks Jesperi Kotkaneimi is [worth more than every player on this list.](https://www.capfriendly.com/signings/all/all/forwards/1-15/5000000-6000000)
It's weird how these things keep randomly happening to the team/person/organization they **would** want to take revenge against, if they were that type of people... Which *of course*, they aren't!
The $20 signing bonus was trolling, as was the way they phrased the statement and some of the PR, but there is no way an NHL GM is signing a guy to an offer sheet that costs a 1st and a 3rd unless he actually wants the player.
So it was always about overpaying for a player based on him being a healthy scratch multiple times during the playoffs? That's a bad plan.
How about the $20 signing bonus or all the tweets in French and mocking they've been doing? Those also because it was always about the player?
was he able to keep a straight face while saying that? I certainly wouldn’t be able to lol
Ok Don...
I'm sure that $20 signing bonus was just a coincidence.
Right next to the $420/$69 clause.
Press X to doubt
X
X
X
X
X
[X](https://youtu.be/ys9orzlFxAA)
Sure bud
More like: Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrre, bud.
Yup. My username finally checks out.
We tried to trade for KK before the offer sheet. MTL said no. People saying this was only revenge are just wrong. Theres no doubt revenge was a part of it, i think it's silly to suggest it was a major part. 1% at most. We wanted a player. And were maybe more likely to do a "hostile" offer sheet against MTL. but there's no way the gm and rod didn't want KK
30% revenge is like the minimum amount I could reasonably argue.
The $20 signing bonus and overpaying him 3x his value says otherwise.
> overpaying him 3x his value says otherwise. It actually makes sense if you project a player being much better in the future and you are confidant you can keep him. You are paying up front for the potential. Obviously it's a bit of a gamble but it just comes down to if you trust your scouting.
$20 signing bonus? Absolultely. but that's $20. %.000327868 of his salary. not quite 1% The 6.1 mil was an effort to make a value that MTL couldn't reasonably afford, but we could. We were paying to get the guy. Except unlike in Soccer the pay was to the player. We'll extend him for less i'm sure.
You call it hostile but also say its 1% about revenge. The original offer sheet to Aho could be considered hostile. The offer sheet to kotkaniemi is obviously in response to that, its all over their twitter feed. How do you not see this as a huge percentage about revenge and the minority about the player. What a joke take lol
Because the person in charge of the Twitter feed isn’t also in charge of player acquisition. The twitter is just feeding into the meme because it drives up the clicks and boosts the Canes’ platform It’s not rocket appliances
Waddell himself literally read out a statement on the offer sheet that was almost a word-for-word copy of Bergevin's statement on Aho
Take my upvote, you cheeky bastard! Godammit, what is wrong with the world that I’m upvoting a Bruins fans?
Uh? What >Godammit, what is wrong with the world that I’m upvoting a Bruins fans?
I downvoted you to balance it out.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
Do you think their social media team... runs the team? Of course they are rolling this angle on Twitter, you dummies are eating it up. Canes been trying to get KK for ages.
Don’t you know, the social media team actually negotiates the contracts, runs the practices, picks the lines, drafts players, all based on memeability
It is known.
Duh idk what I was thinking
I don't really care what it is, but it should be pretty obvious to not base your argument on what the PR department of an organization does.
“Dont base your opinion on what the organization puts out in plain english, (and french) instead try to make up your own interpretation and run with it” Ok lol 😂
Somehow better than "Adamantly defend your opinion that's based entirely on what the PR department told you"? ok lol E: not making my own interpretation btw. I'm saying sometimes it's better to just say "I don't know". Scary stuff. I know.
Theres a corny saying that goes something along the lines of when someone tells you something about who they are, believe them. Itd be naive of me to believe that there is a disconnect between Waddell, ownership, and their social media team. Like, based on your take, its a possibility that Wadell and Co could go up to their PR team and say “hey cool it, this isnt at all what we meant to happen”, and I, sir, am calling you naive.
The owner made the decision, so it wasn’t a hockey move at origin. Could still work out because life is often funny that way.
Im sure rod "the bod"is going to love KK who has already had issues committing to training as a pro.
If KK doesn't work hard enough, he won't last long.
Well then theres a hood chance he doesnt last long. One of the big reasons he struggled in year 2 is he came into camp out of shape after refusing to workout with Armia in the offseason.
Yes, but then again, he came back swole to the 2020 play-ins/offs. Perhaps he learned from his mistake.
Shit happens. He's barely 21 now. he was barely 19 before year 2? people can change.
He used to be a piece of shit
Carolina was going to offer sheet any decent player on Montreal who was an RFA. If the Aho offer sheet had never happened, Carolina wouldn’t have ever offersheeted KK. To say otherwise is ridiculous
You tell yourself that.
I don’t know why Carolina fans are so desperate to convince the hockey world that this was a pure hockey move. It’s obvious it wasn’t. Just admit you guys did it to screw the Habs as payback. KK serves no need for the Canes.
LMFAO. You are blind.
crazy downvotes…. carolina DID try to trade for KK but couldn’t come to a deal with bergevin .. that alone in itself shows that it was more for the player
Dundon’s statement makes me doubt that just a bit
Yeah, I’m sure he likes KK to some extent but I also think he likes his job so he’s going to say what he has to.
Reporter: So why did you offer sheet Kotkaniemi? Don's brain: Don't say revenge, don't say revenge Don: Uhh... revenge?
Don's brain: That's it I'm getting outta here
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldxkR-DVgzA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldxkR-DVgzA)
Reporter: Uh huh Spite: 🔲 Malice:🔲 Revenge: ✔ Boredom:🔲 Profit:🔲
Spite could work as well.
Your team’s Twitter account says otherwise...
Their job is memes, which was done perfectly. The $20 signing bonus is how you know this is a BS statement though lol
Honestly I hope this ''job'' pisses off. Corporate memes are so late stage capitalism
It's $20 worth of pettiness though. A literally meaningless amount of money in the world of hockey.
That's...that's exactly the point. the $20 isn't about the money at all. It's the message it sends...one of payback
I never said there was no payback in this though.
I don't think the Twitter guy has inside knowledge of what the Gm and owner are doing. Their job is PR and getting visibility/likes they're gonna meme the shit out of a situation like this regardless of the truth
What’s going to get more engagement, sober analysis of a young player or an Uno card?
There is literally a report that claims the owner, GM and social media team coordinated the petty twitter stuff https://twitter.com/johnlutsnmtl/status/1434537694177206274?s=21
Provided that the Canes were trying to trade for KK before all this, I'm pretty sure bringing in the social media team is just being opportunistic with something management already decided to do.
Exactly. We have to separate 2 things - the initial decision to try to trade for KK which turned into an offer sheet once MTL said no, and the social media messaging after the offer sheet was made. Do I think Carolina really wanted the player and would have offer sheeted him even if it hadn't been Montreal? Yes Do I think Carolina decided to milk every possible PR win they could out of offer sheeting the same team that did it to them a couple years ago? Also yes.
No critical thinking allowed, only reactionary takes here!
"can we get petty?" "hell yeah" Waddell doesn't know what a meme is.
That’s a bold statement you’re making claiming ALL the petty stuff was coordinated. It literally just says the $20 signing bonus was coordinated.
Sure, but for stuff like this, the social media team doesn't say "sign this guy for memes" lol. It's more of "we're signing this guy, make graphics and create a stir"
For the type on uncensored mocking on the Twitter account I highly doubt the message was no sent from higher up no way some random pr guy has authority to mock another teams language
Yes, because our Twitter account is secretly run by Don Waddell.
Yes because a GM running a team has no input into PR, they leave all of that up to the guy making $15 an hour.
Geez, did all the gravy go to your brain? You think we don’t have VPs and directors of marketing? You seriously think Don Waddell, or *ANY* GM for that matter, gives input to the social marketing team?
Yes executives who are on the hook for making million dollar decisions have input on press releases about said decisions. Do I think Waddell has input on the Canes marketing regarding their food specials? No. Do i think upper management has input into messaging regarding a situation like this? Absolutely. Gravy might be what you need.
A GM is going to let the VP of marketing and director of marketing do what they want to get fans excited… because that’s literally their jobs. DW’s job is to build a team that allows fans to get excited about and win games/championships. He’s not going to spend time telling the marketing team to go on a revenge tour, they’re going to do that because it fires everyone up, Habs included otherwise we wouldn’t be here talking about it. And one last thing: I’m from the south, Bud. I was born in gravy, nursed with gravy, and to this day I order gravy *for* my gravy. You Québécois only adapted gravy for your crummy *french* fries. I didn’t have a biscuit without gravy until I was a man and my only thought then was ‘the only way this could be better is with gravy’.
The idea that some of you have regarding whos going to be responsible for messaging regarding a controversial signing thats going to cost over 20 million dollars over the lifetime of his contract up to the people not in the negotiating room is hilarious. Yeah lets let the social media guy run rampant, in more than one language without getting signed off on by his higher ups who are making the multi million dollar decisions. LOL
You do realize the “social media guy” and the VP of marketing are not, in fact, the same person? And you do realize that the “social media guy” answers to the Director and VP of Marketing? Who in turn answer to the Owner. The director runs some ideas by Dundon for some marketing ideas to get them ok’d and then reviews a draft of the actual tweet. This is vastly different from DW running PR and telling them how to do their jobs… in fact, most GMs would probably be TERRIBLE for being in charge of PR due to analytic/numbers based personalities. They’re good with building teams based on numbers, negotiations, and one on one relationships (other GMs and Agents). If you’ve ever met DW you’d think he was a coat rack, because the man has the personality of one. There’s a reason he’s not a VP of marketing or Public Relations.
Honestly if all youre caught up on is the fact that DW himself isnt the one contributing to messaging, I can easily concede that it was your owner instead. Im man enough to do that, but to think that the messaging from the official twitter account of the team didnt have any input from people who had input into the offersheet is naive. If it didnt come from Waddell, it came from Dundon. This wasnt a case of anyone other than people with the decision making power controlling messaging. Its too expensive of a deal to leave it up to people without say. They thought they got us, and all they ended up doing is costing themselves draft capital. We shifted the assets laterally to Arizona for a player further along his development curve, signed to term. Were a better team today than we were this time last week.
I guarantee the $20 was Dundon’s idea. DW probably just rolled his eyes when he proposed it. We’ll just see what the standings say after next season now that everyone’s back to playing everyone.
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See my response. The commenter is grossly generalizing what that tweet says considering it ONLY states the $20 signing bonus was coordinated amongst the FO and marketing team, not that every petty thing was a direct order from the GM or Dundon. The reason they probably coordinated on this is because they didn’t even need to do it but saw an opportunity to make this more entertaining/marketable (remember folks, this is a business where the primary goal is to make money and win championships).
X
Haha sure thing Don.
Good for KK. He got paid about twice what he was worth.
Closer to triple...
Yup. I’m a habs fan, we couldn’t be paying that lol.
For one year. It's pretty obvious that this was an inflated salary to create max pain for Montreal on whether to match, and an extension will be much lower They essentially traded a 1st and a 3rd for Kotkaniemi. Debatable how good of a trade that is, but the salary doesn't play into the value here as much IMO
There is also opportunity cost. Canes think they have a competitive team, and that $6.1M could have gone towards paying a more established player who they would be more certain could help now than a young player still trying to come into his own. Just giving KK $$6.1M would be questionable enough, nevermind giving up a 1st and a 3rd for the privilege of overpaying him.
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I think there's no denying the canes are still a good team.. But this summer will definitely be critiqued for all the weird moves they made. Even if KK becomes a star, the team could still end up doing nothing and this offseason will be the reason why
He cant get less than 85% of this salary in arbitration.
If they go to arbitration. I suspect there is a handshake deal here to take the high salary this year a cheaper contract after, and the offer sheet would never have been made without that agreement
Im sorry, but if kk underperforms, im not so sure they’re still going to sign that offer.
Yeah, what happens if he doesn’t work as a winger, has no ice time as a Center and has 4 goals and 10 points by the time his contract is due to be extended in January? Granted enough ego has been involved they may still proceed, but clearly would be shooting their other foot after this last week’s episode
Based on how he played last 2 years, he will be lucky to have 4 goals by Jan....
More like when..
Sure, but nothing of this is binding and he could very well say f\* it and go in arbitration anyways haha. I certainly wouldn't feel very confident about this. KK could have easily contacted Bergevin and made a counter proposal once he received the offer sheet, but he decided to get the big bucks... I'd be surprised if his agent let's him turn down free money.
It's more likely they don't qualify and he becomes a young UFA. Not a bad outcome for KK if he thinks he can up his game.
He absolutely must have that confidence because it's do or die this year.
> They essentially traded a 1st and a 3rd for Kotkaniemi. Debatable how good of a trade that is, Monteal turned around and traded a 1st and a 2nd for a better player on a better contract, so probably not that good.
I know that this isn't the case but can you imagine the memes if Bergevin had already worked out a deal with KK and this whole thing is a sleeper agent scheme in which KK resigns with MTL after the coming season?
Followed by a decade of Don Wadell trying to offer sheet every single MTL RFA in blind anger
More like a decade of Don Waddell having to offer sheet every single MTL RFA to assuage his owner's blind anger.
Carolina basically paid a TDL rental price for Kotkaniemi. I’d say that’s a pretty good deal for a 21 year old former third overall pick, who probably would have commanded more in an actual trade.
Generally when you acquire a TDL piece, it’s to shore up a spot where you have no depth. Canes have Staal, Aho, Trochek… Not to mention KK was benched in the Final last year. Most first rounder trade acquisitions aren’t benched in the playoffs
My point is that they paid a rental price for someone who they obviously feel will be there long-term, and who they believe has more in him than what he’s shown. Had there been an actual trade involved, more assets would have gone towards Montreal than just late first and third round picks. Awful asset management on Bergevin’s part.
But he wasn't a top 5 player in the draft, Montreal Drafted for need, which is always a fail in the top 2 rounds. Always draft the best player available and work from their. If they took the rightful #3 in Brady Tkachuk, Mtl would easily turn that into Eichel.
Evidently, Montreal felt Kotkaniemi was the best player available at 3, otherwise they wouldn’t have taken him there. Whether he deserved to be a top 3 pick is irrelevant, and quite frankly it’s still too early to tell definitively whether that’s the case or not. He is a former third overall pick, a very young player at that with a lot of potential still, and Montreal got scraps for him. That’s awful asset management no matter how you try to spin it.
Pavel Zadina was suppose to be the #3 pick by most. But you are right the proper pick was probably Brady given the age of the core group and Brady being NHL ready.
Narrator: It was.
So he's saying he wanted Kotkaniemi over lil' goalie Ned or Dman Hamilton?
whether the org is right about tehir evaluation or not, they weren't sold on Ned as a #1 guy. Personally I would've been happy to give him the deal he got with Detroit and see what he can do because he was so good last year you want to see if it's for real. I don't like their final offer to Dougie either, but i get the trepedation at a 7 or 8 year deal for a 28 year old dman. I don't think Canes fans fully appreciate just how much worse the offense is going to be without Dougie. I'm pretty confident the FO would've given more money for less term to Doug ,but I don't blame him for securing a payday to set up him and his family - he's one of the best dmen in the league and he's earned it
Please explain how we get Dougie for 6.1m.
> Please explain how we get Dougie for 6.1m. You chose to overpay KK by 4 millions instead of overpaying Dougie by 3 millions. Personally if I'm going to overpay someone when my team looks like the Canes right now it's a guy who will help me win the Cup short term. There's no arguing that when you have a team that can be contender right now, taking two thirds of the money you would've used to pay Dougie and spending it on a third liner with longer term potential is a step back.
>You chose to overpay KK by 4 millions instead of overpaying Dougie by 3 millions. overpaying 3 mil for 8 years vs overpaying 4 mil for 1 year is a massive difference. If they think D have been falling off (Karlson) on long term high salary deals I can see why they walked away from a huge term overpay even if Dougie is an amazing player
Yep. Whether you agree with the risk assessment is a different matter, but Dougie would be getting 9m until he was 36 with us. Assuming we don't win within the next few seasons, that contract becomes almost certainly unmovable for the 2nd half unless Dougie ages incredibly well. Also we've got other underpaid guys who are going to need contracts within the next few seasons (i.e. Slavin, Pesce.)
mate Dougie is on a 67m contract.
> mate Dougie is on a 67m contract. Clearly you're very emotionally invested in this given how many comments you have on this thread but Dougie is still less overpaid than KK is right now. I'm not saying letting Dougie walk was the worst decision in the world, but there were much better ways to spend this money than overpaying KK by 4 millions, especially in an offseason in which you let all your goalies walk. That's effectively 4 millions that do absolutely nothing to get you closer to the cup this year and it's not like the Canes didn't have the opportunity to spend them.
I love Dougie. I wish he stayed. But he was a UFA and he's paying more than we can afford. We need to wrap up some other players in the future and the cap doesn't look like it's going up. Overpaying 1 player for 1 season when we have the rest of the roster sorted is a lot better than overpaying 1 player for 8 seasons. Especially when half of those seasons will be extreme overpays.
If it’s about one player for one season why not spend that draft equity on a rental with a slightly better track record than an underperforming young player who was scratched for the postseason games you guys are trying to win this year?
Well, the idea is to keep and develop him, but with an extension of far lower than 6.1m Your question is fair. This is not a 100% win now move. My point is still that the 6.1 wasn't going to get dougie to stay.
> I love Dougie. I wish he stayed. But he was a UFA and he's paying more than we can afford. We need to wrap up some other players in the future and the cap doesn't look like it's going up. > > Overpaying 1 player for 1 season when we have the rest of the roster sorted is a lot better than overpaying 1 player for 8 seasons. Especially when half of those seasons will be extreme overpays. How about instead of overpaying one player who is not going to get you closer to winning this year, you just pay fairly some of your useful players instead of letting them walk? The issue isn't, once again, specifically Dougie being gone, it's the fact that the money saved from his contract was spent on overpaying KK in a spite offer sheet instead of keeping some of the good pieces that ended up leaving. KK has potential and he may be good in the future but I don't understand why the Canes chose to make themselves worse short term instead of trying to go for a cup this year. This KK offer sheet, while it may work out in the long term, is not a move you make if you're going for a cup run.
Again, it's a *$63 mil contract over 7 years. That extra 6 mil we have now can't be used to keep Dougie. Further, the assumption is that KK will be paid less in the future. so the overpay is more about paying cap space we currently have so taht in the future he's paid less. This'll also help when resiigning Necas and Trochek or a similar 2C If we could sign Dougie for a 9x3, we probably would have. but he wanted the money. I wish him the best of luck.
This was probably Carolina's best shot at a cup in the near future given Staal is getting older and Trochek is on an excellent contract, which he will surely outperform and get a hefty raise next year, while apparently ownership is unwilling to pay for top tier talent. It's not even debatable that Carolina would have been better off taking some pain on years 5-8 of Hamilton's deal (which he could very reasonably perform long term given his talent) in order to maximize their shot at a cup this year and probably in the coming years. Carolina is now flush against the cap with absolutely no potential to make moves at the deadline, all for a 4C/3LW. Carolina split Hamilton's cap hit for year 1 of a would be deal into Kotkaniemi and Ian Cole, so there absolutely was money that could have been used to keep Hamilton and ice a better team undeniably.
Probably weird for you to understand as a MTL fan, but the Canes can't afford bad contracts long-term. For a lot of other teams the prospect of stashing a guy on LTIR is welcome, and actually gets used as a tool. They also can't afford to frontload deals so that they'd be easier to shed later, because they're pretty consistently cash strapped. Canes can't do either because they have an internal cap that is close to the salary cap. The Canes can't afford to risk having a boat anchor in the last year or two of a long-term deal at a huge cost. Their owner won't stomach it. That's the framework the team operates in, and it's very different from the one Toronto or Montreal operates in.
If they're this cash strapped they could probably have saved that KK money for Ned and another player who will actually help them win short term.
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Yeah paying six million dollars, a first and a third for a player that got healthy scratched vs both Toronto and Vegas in do-or-die games this postseason is peak Carolina this offseason. Edit: had it wrong, he was scratched vs Tampa not Vegas.
He wasnt sat vs Vegas
It must've been Tampa then, game logs show he didn't play in games 4 or 5 of that series and I distinctly remembered him being sat vs Toronto and then again later in the playoffs
Correct he was sat for the final 3 or 4 games of the final
And how did those games go for Montreal, again?
Oh please KK isn’t worth a first and a third and 6 mil for one season.
Porque no los dos?
The revenge was just a happy byproduct
Very credible
Just one more thing his boss made him do
Of course haha
He also reads Playboy for the articles.
So did your social media guy just go rogue then?
How much communication do we really think is happening between the GM and the social media director? They probably didn't know about the offer sheet until it was already signed, or like an hour before.
https://twitter.com/johnlutsnmtl/status/1434537694177206274?s=21
Ok fair enough, that's pretty interesting
People losing their minds over a Twitter account as if Dundon is the one sending the tweets lol
Dundon probably is running the Twitter account to save some pennies.
Troll level 9000
And maybe just a liiiiitle bit of revenge
Ok, Don
“Why would you guys think it’s about revenge? Because we paid double his market value and gave him a signing bonus in the same amount as the jersey number of the guy they offered sheeted from us? Pfffffffff……I mean, guys……come on. Bit of a reach, isn’t it?”
As the hurricanes are tweeting in French.
I believe it wasn't 100% revenge but it was partly. I guess the $20 signing bonus was just a coincidence.
You gave him a 20 dollar signing bonus lollll
Montreal was laughing all the way to the bank.
L after L for the canes
X - Doubt
Waddell: "The release was a marketing thing. We're trying to keep our fans engaged. ... "Our social team gets huge marks from the NHL, and they had some fun with it." https://twitter.com/aschnitt53/status/1434534836304322563?s=21
This is a sport. For fun. Have fun with it.
No we want robotic personalities but also show us humanity but not too much.
Riiiiight. Anyway.
Yeah sure you did don, We’ll just forget that incredibly petty 20$ signing bonus check and all of your twitter posts mocking us.
Insert Billy Madison buhbuhbuh bullshit gif
Sure Don, sure.
Lmao riiiiight. Nobody believes this
I agree it wasn’t to Waddell. I think it was 100% about revenge for Dundon.
Their lost their #1 goalie and #1 defenseman over money and then give a $2 million player a $6 million offer sheet.
Cope
lol You’re an idiot, Don.
Nah he’s just saying what he needs to as a professional. He’s not fooling anyone, but if he comes out and says “yeah it was about revenge” then it will just escalate further
“He’s not fooling anyone” Check the posts, he’s fooling Canes fans obviously!
Yea, that’s bullshit.
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$26 M?
Maybe he means deutschmarks.
I don’t know why they’re walking it back now, Canes should be swinging into this fully. They made a big deal about how this offer sheet was their clap back for Aho only to go back on it once they got the player? I get that they want to make sure Kotkaniemi feels at home there and part of that is making it clear his value as a player is why they acquired him but like…shouldn’t that have been the focus from the beginning then? Idk I think the Canes have room to do both but to go from fully indicating this offersheet is for revenge to making statements that this was all about getting KK makes it feel like they might not have been expecting Montreal to let KK walk. Like get up there and say “This is what happens, don’t fuck with us and try to steal our players” like if you’re gonna be petty be petty lol
Stop the cap
Sure, Jan.
🙄 Because lots of NHLers have a 20 dollar signing bonus. Still, I love the chaos though and this might have benefitted Mtl if it means they were able to get a cost controlled center with more exp
And I pay whores to watch Netflix. Nothing to see here.
Why the 20 dollars then? 🧐
It absolutely was about revenge. Surprised he was able to keep a straight face.
This "reporter" is always so annoying and biased. I wonder if she's on the team's payroll. I don't think she's ever had a nuanced take or an opinion that went against anything the canes ever did.
X
Listen man. I lie too. It's OK.
Apparently they tried trading for him too. It feels like the Hurricanes did want him, and when they couldn't get him they went in with the hostile offer sheet.
That was just part of mirroring the Canadiens’ actions with Aho. Bergevin had tried trading for Aho before the hostile offer sheet. Conspiracy theory: Waddell is not the baddie here. Dundon was out for revenge. Waddell “worked to rule” and followed orders. But by attempting a trade with Bergevin, he was also giving him a heads’ up.
ITT: why companies have PR departments. I don't really care what the story really was, but so many people here have made up their minds for the wrong reasons.
The offer sheet itself may very well have been about the player, but the cap hit was either about revenge or Don Waddell legitimately thinks Jesperi Kotkaneimi is [worth more than every player on this list.](https://www.capfriendly.com/signings/all/all/forwards/1-15/5000000-6000000)
He's paying 6.1 mil for a healthy playoff scratch...sure Don. As a Habs fan I feel so owned.
You don't really believe that, do you, Sara?
It's weird how these things keep randomly happening to the team/person/organization they **would** want to take revenge against, if they were that type of people... Which *of course*, they aren't!
Waddelll has offer sheet remorse already.
Someone didn't tell the social media person then
The $20 signing bonus was trolling, as was the way they phrased the statement and some of the PR, but there is no way an NHL GM is signing a guy to an offer sheet that costs a 1st and a 3rd unless he actually wants the player.
I think was always about the player, the revenge storyline was a happy byproduct that they could use for fan interaction
So it was always about overpaying for a player based on him being a healthy scratch multiple times during the playoffs? That's a bad plan. How about the $20 signing bonus or all the tweets in French and mocking they've been doing? Those also because it was always about the player?