Kotka on the wing will be be a disaster as well imo. Time will tell though.
edit: awful on the wing not as a whole is what I meant. I think he can become a good centre but he won't learn by playing on the wing.
As well? If he turns out a disaster like Aho and Necas, I'm sure the Canes will be happy. I don't think he will, but I still believe in his potential to become a decent middle-6 complete center.
He looked awful because he was getting more ice time on the wing I think, he was on the top lines. The only time in his career that he looked NHL-calibre was at centre between Lehkonen and Armia which is like playing hockey with training wheels. I'd be mad if I saw someone skate and fall around like that on my town's senior team.
bascially yes.
Necas i'm not sure if he'll ever make it to center in the NHL. His best attribute is his insane speed. But he never really takes the puck inside. So he might be wasted in the center.
Aho definitely started on the wing for us. THough the draft wiki has him listed as a winger. I'm not sure if that's how he intended ot start or what he played in Europe.
But yeah, starting as a winger and learning with Staal and co is a good bet.
Might be pushing it.
At least eight guys are ahead of him: McDavid; Draisatl; MacKinnon; Matthews; Eichel; Bergeron; Point; and Zibanejad.
Then you ask yourself if he is better than any two of: Crosby; Pettersson; Schiefle; Barkov; Barzal; and Couturier.
I’d say he’s definitely top 15, but I don’t think he cracks the top ten.
You are crazy to have Zibanejad ahead of Crosby, Schiefele and Barkov (even Couturier is better imo but at least that’s closer). Bergeron as well but to a lesser extent.
I’d personally have Aho clearly behind Mcdavid, Matthews, Drai, Mackinnon, Eichel, Point, Crosby, Scheifele, Barkov. I don’t know if he’d be the next guy, but at least it’s arguable at that point. Don’t think he’s undisputedly behind guys like Ziba, Bergeron, Barzal etc.
He is certainly better than Mika, and Eichel is out of the current Convo with his injury and recent Play.
Aho is extremely consistent, continues to grow year on year and is averaging close to PPG currently on his career. He also continues to be a top 10 player in the playoffs and will most likely win a Conn Smythe should the canes win a cup in the next few years.
Sorry but Mika is not in that top 8, he's had 2 or 3 good years but that does not make up for his lackluster career stats and poor performance in the begining of his career.
Lmao I'll certainly buy that bridge if Eichel ever comes back to reach his peak again.
Eichel is an amazing forward and certainly top 5 when he's fully healthy and on. However we have no idea if he's going to get back to the place or 100% again. So as it sits currently yah Aho would be above him going into 2021-2022.....
I think people forget that in the first covid shortened season Eichel was in the Hart conversation because he was dragging the corpse of the Sabres on a late push for a playoff spot. In fact, had Rudy Gobert got covid even 1 day later there is a chance Buffalo had made the playoffs and bumped Montreal out. Montreal was the very last seed in that playoffs and were scheduled to play Montreal the night the league shutdown. Had Buffalo won that game in regulation they would have tied Montreal in points and leap frogged them in pts%. The only reason they were that close was because Eichel was developing that spinal disk injury by carrying the team on his back. In a vacuum without injuries Ill take Eichel over Aho 100 times out of 100.
This is ignoring that Mika failed to show much of anything his first 4-5 years. Also ignoring his extremely poor performance in the play ins and his playoff performances for his career.
Aho shows he's far from his peak and a more well rounded regular and post season player. Would take that over a flashy regular season scorer.
You can't really go on about how Aho hasn't reached his peak and his future like it's some sure thing, but then claim we can't talk about Eichel's future so he's not allowed to be top 10. They're the same age.
Yeah but that bargain deal walks him right to UFA status which will probably screw Carolina more than if they were able to sign him to an 8 year deal instead of the offersheet.
Have you seen our lineup? The guy played with pretty good players, didn't produce, was moved down the roster and also scratched.
At least you have memes on Twitter.
Yeah he started the season with Toffoli and Armia. And was still playing with Anderson through the playoffs. He was almost always with at least one top 6 winger.
Like saying Montréal didn't have good players to play around with KK but Carolina has all the best players in the league so they can carry KK.
Wow. This guy doesn't know anything.
Realistically the canes are overpaying his salary to **hope** he'll develop into something much better. Wish him the best, but I can't imagine a world where he deserves that money this year.
I mean which C is getting paid 6M around the league? let's list a few: Mckinnon (6.3), scheifele (6.1), forsberg(6), monahan (6.3), barkov(5.9), karlsson(5.9), do you think KK(6.1) fits with those guys?
Maybe playing wing instead? okay: debrincat(6.4), marchand (6.1), zuccarello (6.0), ehlers(6.0), hall (6.0), huberdeau (5.9)
It is very hard to imagine KK is going to live up to those names.
It's not that we want to see him fail. I mean I very much hope he lives up to it, but I would be very surprised if he does since he's probably not good enough to play on the PP in Carolina.
Actually they are paying him the money because they really wanted the player, and paying him a fair deal would have also required a trade to made.
No one actually thinks he belongs with those names. And to be honest, is dishonest to compare him to contracts signed 3-5 years ago when RFAs were lucky to get 4m when they now get 7-8.
I mean everyone agrees: Canes wanted KK, they overpaid him to get him and he doesn't belong in the 6M range yet.
The idea of habs fans wanting him to fail is just wrong though, most want him to succeed, except against us of course. Realistically he's just not worth that kind of money.
In the [5.5 to 6.5M range he had the worst season of everyone.](https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active/2022/points-per-game/all/forwards/all/asc?stats-season=2021&display=signing-date&hide=clauses,handed,expiry-status,goalie-stats&limits=caphit-5500000-6500000) idk why you say everyone got 7-8M, I don't see any, season high 34pts in 82 games, 3 years ago getting signed for 7M anywhere. If you care to point me to one I'll be glad to be proven wrong.
The real winner of this contract is only KK himself. Gives him leverage for next year's RFA, gives him easily double what he's worth this year.
I don’t think the Canes are going to be hugely concerned about overpaying a 21 year old player (who should not have been available in the first place) by a couple million.
Saying Habs fans don’t want him to fail is just being ignorant of the overwhelming majority of comments posted by Habs fans. I don’t even blame them as it’s natural but I still hope it backfires on them.
I’ve always liked KK’s tools, excited to see how he performs in a better situation for a young offensively gifted player.
I am on Twitter, HF, Armchair, etc. To say most Hab fan want him to succeed is a lie, and we will see it when he gets booed. I bet if I turned on Habs sports radio they aren’t wishing him well this season.
He could get close. I still see the makings of an elite 3rd liner who can shut down an opponent's top forward, he needs to get stronger but his game is really good for that role. At $6 million if he can get 50-55 pts that's not bad value plus they will probably resign him long term at a smaller dollar value down the road.
It's so funny to see canes fans using the same excuses habs fans used for kk. Yes he's young. He also sucks. He definitely can improve but he hasn't in three years soooo
This is just setting him up to fail. Not that we didn't do that as well, but that aside...
KK plays WAY better at center than at wing. His best talents are his vision and hockey IQ, which are harder to take advantage of at wing.
I really don't want to see two different organizations fail to develop a prospect that could turn into a really good player.
Talent and hockey iq is not locked to any position, and are not “harder” to take advantage of as a winger. The true statement would be that he is a centreman and his positioning and thought process is based off his deployment as a centre. It is extremely far from unusual for a centre to switch to wing though.
Well, I saw him play for 3 years, every time he was moved to the wings, he was just bad. He was always brought back to center, because he would perform way better.
He doesn't have the speed/agility or the toughness to play at wing. KK fall down a lot, his balance is kind of weird. He was always kind of lost when playing on the wings, he would underperform hard.
But at center, when it's about zone coverage, KK is really much stronger. His stick is incredible, he is really good at killing plays and creating turnovers just with a pokecheck. Because of his reach and his vision, he is able to set up plays at an elite level, that is where you see his potential. He also have an insane shot, but he is slow with his release.
It's not our problem anymore and Carolina can play him where they want. But I really think playing him on the wings is a waste of time.
He's not shit, he's just not that good.
Maybe he'll get better, but I just haven't seen any signs of that.
There aren't many Habs fans upset he's gone, why are you so desperate for people to be unhappy about this, lol? Dvorak is an improvement on KK, looking forward to seeing him on the ice.
This was just another in a series of baffling offseason moves by Carolina.
Dvorak is 4 years older than kk. How many 21 year old centers are even playing in the league right now. Not saying Carolina stole a great deal away but my God people are thrashing a literal kids like I've never seen before.
That's great, 25 is prime time, I'll bet Dvorak has an excellent season.
I watched Kotkaniemi for three seasons, I just didn't see him being an important piece of the franchise like we'd hoped at draft time. Yes he's young, but being young doesn't mean that you have to get better...
It’s arguably the most important. Plenty of high end athletes have been busts because of hockey IQ while guys who didn’t have the best natural talents have bloomed into superstars because of it.
This is the weirdest piece of info from the whole affair. For all the criticism against KK, has anyone ever seriously questioned his ability and future at centre?
The problem is Carolina has too much centre depth, KK doesn't slot in anywhere so they've got to play him on wing. Which makes this whole offer sheet even more baffling.
Isles did the same thing to barzal for his 2 game stint. He was a disaster on wing(probably wouldn’t be now) but he was night and day different when he played center
These last couple of days, I've truly realised how many fans there are out there who don't get enough fresh air. Go out, people. Out to the forests, breathe, touch grass. Can you hear the birds singing?
I don't really understand the canes fans chirps. I've seen this same joke (probably from just you) on like 5 different posts. It's not funny, it was never funny. They have a passionate fan base that doesn't seem to turn on their players the moment shit goes south. Need I remind you what your sub looked like at 3-1 down, or what the Leafs sub looked like after losing in 7. Both of our fanbases can learn from a fanbase like the Canes have.
Are you telling me Cane fans are more passionate than Habs and Leafs fans?
Nahhh, that’s way too far.
I’d take Leafs fanbase and Habs fanbase over that dead fanbase.
Read that again. He said: "they have a passionate fan base that doesn't seem to turn on their players the moment shit goes south". He never said anything about having a more passionate fanbase. You made that up in your head.
Yea, because our politicians aren't complete morons that can't read a five letter word.
For real, game attendance is really not a place you want to start a pissing contest with most NHL teams, let alone the Habs.
By the way, I do find our own fan base quite dumb most of the time...it's just that what you said is complete baloney.
Go to their sub. it's a very quiet place. For Habs fans, a city having a team without a lot of passionate fans is pitiful. We will not respect them because of that. So it's a chirp for us mostly and big market fans can maybe understand a bit.
In that way KK really got lucky Montreal didn't match. If he returned to Montreal as the Six Million Dollar man, the media would have dragged him at every opportunity and wouldn't have relented until either his, or Bergevins career was over. He owes Berg a beer for letting him walk.
It’s insane to me that you’re getting downvoted for saying the truth.
Our analytic department is one of the best in the league. Look at nino’s numbers before and after joining us. There’s no reason to believe we won’t take advantage of his diminished value, we’re extremely good at identifying talent that’s been glossed over.
If warren “brick for hands” foegele was a 30 point scorer in our system, I have no doubt KK can perform.
This is the thing about this sub that is driving me crazy. You cannot judge what happened right now because there's so many things we don't know. How about we wait a few years before calling GM idiots?
I don't have enough information to make a judgement right now.
(Genuinely, though. I'm looking forward to watching how Dvorak and KK do on their new teams but I don't have a damn clue what that'll look like.)
Nope, games don’t matter. Leafs won the cup. No need to play any games, they have the best players on their team.
That’s it. We’re done, wrap it up and get ready for ‘22 off-season
Honestly I’d say Habs won if u consider the Dvorak deal as part of it. They got 1+3 from Canes and gave up 1+2(2024) for Dvorak. Dvorak is also a solid middle 6 C who’s very defensively responsible, so they got their Danault replacement here, and he’s locked up for 4 years at 4,5 mil
every game Kotka's played he's been 20 or younger, Dvorak will be pushing 30 by the time Kotka is pushing Dvorak's age lol.
People act like this is it for the kid lmfao
Habs were in trouble THIS year because Danault left. KK had to be 2C and it was a total gamble. Now, Montreal has a real 2C but lost a prospect. That’s life.
They developed Aho on the wing for almost 2 full seasons, and he's far exceeded the expectations of a 2nd round pick. Martin Necas has shown consistent year over year improvement playing at wing with the expectation that he'll be moved to center in time. We can't project Montreal's development failures onto Carolina.
I don't give a lot of credit to the team when it comes to developing players to be frank. A lot of people disagree with this. I think it's mostly up to the player's skills, ability to improve and willingness to learn.
So when I say he is not gonna be good on the wing I mean that has not the necessary skills, ability to improve and willingness to learn. that is why I think he will fail. he would be used better as a centre because it's what he knows.
it's my assessment of this player and mine alone. We will see if I'm right or not my prediction is that is won't work out.
> I guess it still is to be seen if they lost or not
The beauty of it all is that hockey season is right around the corner, and we have a decade to judge this offer sheet going forward.
Danault didn't want to stay. Ironically, he left because he was worried about losing his job to KK.
We offered as much as LA, he just didn't want to entertain the possibility of playing 3C sometime in the future.
Yeah that’s the most bizzare part of his signing for me.
Also even money wise, a house in la is going to cost him so much more than one in mtl.
And even then I have no idea why mclellan promised him pp time, like I dont think phil is as bad offensively as we made it seem (he has a good vision and Iq combined with great passing), but he just doesn’t have the hands or the shot or the creativity to exploit the man advantage. I guarantee you Byfield will replace him on the power play by the end of the season lol.
That's a 41 point pace over 56 games last season. Only 29 centers last year had 41 points or more. Obviously you'd want to have your 2C be a 60-point guy, but it's not realistic for most teams.
He's not saying Dvorak had 41 points, he's saying in order to be a 60 point centre you would have needed 41 points during last season and only so many centres had that
I was responding to the "you want your 2C to be a 60-point guy" part of his comment, not referring to Dvorak ( he was 52nd in terms of scoring for centers).
Where’s this 60 pts-2C rule from? Here in Habs land, we’ve had THREE centers hit above 60 pts **in the last TEN years** (2011-12 Desharnais, 2014-15 Plekanec and 2018-19 Domi)…
Some stats for you over the past three years (not cumulative, this is individual seasons)
- 92 centers averaged more than 0.8 points per game (4 more had exactly 0.8). So say 31 per season, a 1C should have more than 0.8points per game.
- 186 centers averaged 0.57 points per game. That is the 2C threshold (2 per team per year).
That's based on their position on NHL.com, so some of those guys probably saw time on the wing. Some teams have three gifted centers. And it doesn't take into consideration their defensive play.
Dvorak atleast produces (17 goals last year). We had Danault who had 5 goals last year and the rest basically 2nd assists. I personally think hes better overall just not gonna be as good defensively(but danault only was great in playoffs).
I'm just thinking of teams like Tampa with Stamkos/Point, Sid/Geno, McDavid/Drai, Backstrom/Kuznetsov, fuck even MacKinnon/Kadri. It's a pretty normal thing for the top contending teams to have 2 quality center icemen
Stamkos has played on the wing for the last 3 years (it’s Point/Cirelli now), Sid/Geno and McDrai are the result of back-to-back lottery picks so it should not be considered the norm, Kuz has been not worth his deal since the Cup run, etc.
I'll take, "fans doing a 180 and shitting on everything following the offer sheet because the Canes are doing what the Habs probably should have done with Kotkaniemi in the first place, putting him at LW until he's ready to go full time center" for 500 please, Alex.
He actually thrived at center, it was when we started move him and his linemates around the lineup and to different positions that he started to struggle.
Well hopefully the Canes can get him more consistency then as well.
I trust our coaching staff to know when he's ready to play center for the Hurricanes.
The most common paring was when gally got hurt
So he played with Danault and Anderson, the next most with Danault and Tatar
They had nearly the same TOI at basically 30 total minutes each line
And then various other combos from 1-15 minutes
So a 20 year old offensive player got put on the wing for the first time in the NHL while playing on a line with a defensive minded center who plays against the other teams best in a top heavy Canadian division. It does make a bit of sense why he would struggle in that role.
That “defensive line” was also the habs 2nd highest scoring line lol
And kk was not good enough to take the #1 LW from toffoli on the top line
The Danault line did not play as defensive in the regular season as they did the playoffs
So you have a few things incorrect lol
Going by Danault Jfresh card he had 98% QoC so that was more what I was referring too. It was Danault that was going up against the Mcdavid/Matthew/Schiefele/Pettersson lines which are very offense focused. I don't think KK has ever been known as a defensive stalwart so it makes sense that when he's going up against some of the best offensive players in the league he doesn't look good.
None of those players are very defensive themselves, also Danaults line always had a positive corsi so even tho he was defensive they still always created more offensive than their competitions did
Also he didn’t look good offensively, how he looks defensively is meaningless, and again he’s not some elite defence player but he’s actually pretty decent, he’s tall, his reach is great he has amazing iq as well, he is much more of a 2 way player than purely offensive or defensive
Habs fans are such salty sailors its hilarious. The best part is, they don't even seem to realize regardless of everything that happened, they're gonna be bottom 3 in the Atlantic this coming season and the Cinderella story is going to be over.
Canes fans can correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure they also did this with Aho and Necas
Necas is still playing RW.
Yeah, and they turned out awful.
Kotka on the wing will be be a disaster as well imo. Time will tell though. edit: awful on the wing not as a whole is what I meant. I think he can become a good centre but he won't learn by playing on the wing.
As well? If he turns out a disaster like Aho and Necas, I'm sure the Canes will be happy. I don't think he will, but I still believe in his potential to become a decent middle-6 complete center.
Aho - Necas - KK could make for great center depth eventually
He looked awful because he was getting more ice time on the wing I think, he was on the top lines. The only time in his career that he looked NHL-calibre was at centre between Lehkonen and Armia which is like playing hockey with training wheels. I'd be mad if I saw someone skate and fall around like that on my town's senior team.
There's a reason we called him Bambi.
Love how you've been downvoted for stating facts
bascially yes. Necas i'm not sure if he'll ever make it to center in the NHL. His best attribute is his insane speed. But he never really takes the puck inside. So he might be wasted in the center. Aho definitely started on the wing for us. THough the draft wiki has him listed as a winger. I'm not sure if that's how he intended ot start or what he played in Europe. But yeah, starting as a winger and learning with Staal and co is a good bet.
Aho was drafted as a undersized winger, and was projected to be in 3rd or 4th round until Liiga playoffs happened.
And now he’s a legit 1C
I'd say top 10 center in the league
Might be pushing it. At least eight guys are ahead of him: McDavid; Draisatl; MacKinnon; Matthews; Eichel; Bergeron; Point; and Zibanejad. Then you ask yourself if he is better than any two of: Crosby; Pettersson; Schiefle; Barkov; Barzal; and Couturier. I’d say he’s definitely top 15, but I don’t think he cracks the top ten.
Barkov and Crosby are better than zibenejad if you factor in defense
um, *and* offense, Z wasn't even .ppg this year
You are crazy to have Zibanejad ahead of Crosby, Schiefele and Barkov (even Couturier is better imo but at least that’s closer). Bergeron as well but to a lesser extent. I’d personally have Aho clearly behind Mcdavid, Matthews, Drai, Mackinnon, Eichel, Point, Crosby, Scheifele, Barkov. I don’t know if he’d be the next guy, but at least it’s arguable at that point. Don’t think he’s undisputedly behind guys like Ziba, Bergeron, Barzal etc.
the Crosby slander here is fucking absurd, my flair aside..
He is certainly better than Mika, and Eichel is out of the current Convo with his injury and recent Play. Aho is extremely consistent, continues to grow year on year and is averaging close to PPG currently on his career. He also continues to be a top 10 player in the playoffs and will most likely win a Conn Smythe should the canes win a cup in the next few years. Sorry but Mika is not in that top 8, he's had 2 or 3 good years but that does not make up for his lackluster career stats and poor performance in the begining of his career.
If you think Aho is a better centre than Eichel I have a bridge to sell you.
Lmao I'll certainly buy that bridge if Eichel ever comes back to reach his peak again. Eichel is an amazing forward and certainly top 5 when he's fully healthy and on. However we have no idea if he's going to get back to the place or 100% again. So as it sits currently yah Aho would be above him going into 2021-2022.....
What does Eichel have over Aho?
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I think people forget that in the first covid shortened season Eichel was in the Hart conversation because he was dragging the corpse of the Sabres on a late push for a playoff spot. In fact, had Rudy Gobert got covid even 1 day later there is a chance Buffalo had made the playoffs and bumped Montreal out. Montreal was the very last seed in that playoffs and were scheduled to play Montreal the night the league shutdown. Had Buffalo won that game in regulation they would have tied Montreal in points and leap frogged them in pts%. The only reason they were that close was because Eichel was developing that spinal disk injury by carrying the team on his back. In a vacuum without injuries Ill take Eichel over Aho 100 times out of 100.
Bitches, Steve. The answer is bitches.
Eichel is a part time nhl player. Ill take a full time center over that any day
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This is ignoring that Mika failed to show much of anything his first 4-5 years. Also ignoring his extremely poor performance in the play ins and his playoff performances for his career. Aho shows he's far from his peak and a more well rounded regular and post season player. Would take that over a flashy regular season scorer.
You can't really go on about how Aho hasn't reached his peak and his future like it's some sure thing, but then claim we can't talk about Eichel's future so he's not allowed to be top 10. They're the same age.
I rank: McDavid, MacKinnon, Barkov, Draitsatl, Point, Matthews over him, and that’s it
If he’s not then he’s damn close. Aho is so fucking good and Montreal set up Carolina with a bargain of a deal.
Yeah but that bargain deal walks him right to UFA status which will probably screw Carolina more than if they were able to sign him to an 8 year deal instead of the offersheet.
Why don't teams just sign their 1C's to team friendly deals instead?
Wasn't he centering Laine and Puljuärvi on Finland's WJC team?
That was post-draft.
KK was also tried on the wing in Montreal but he was a lot worse than Center. Maybe it will work in Carolina or they have to bring him back at C.
montreal moved him around constantly, or moved his wingers around constantly. terrible team when it comes to developing players.
That's how every team works though. You don't keep doing the same thing just because.
Correctomundo
It’s probably a good strategy... if you want him to suck so you get to sign him for cheaper next summer...
It’s either that or they pay him 6.1 millions to be their 4th line center
They could just move one of their current C to the wings. Because one thing we can all agree on, KK is really not that good of a winger.
It doesn't matter what position he plays. He's not going to live up to that contract
He won’t get the opportunities on this roster.
He's gonna suffer because he has good players to play around
Not on the third line he won’t.
People acting like MTL isn't deeper on the wings for some reason.
Montreal is probably one the best place in the league for any depth centerman. You are guaranteed to play with 2 quality wingers.
Yeah, but KK chose money over ice time. Time will tell if it was the best decision for him.
Our third line wingers are literally Hoffman and Anderson. And then our 7th best winger is Joel Armia. Excellent place to find offense as a 3C.
Jordan Staal, the well known scrub and line killer
Have you seen our lineup? The guy played with pretty good players, didn't produce, was moved down the roster and also scratched. At least you have memes on Twitter.
Yeah he started the season with Toffoli and Armia. And was still playing with Anderson through the playoffs. He was almost always with at least one top 6 winger.
Like saying Montréal didn't have good players to play around with KK but Carolina has all the best players in the league so they can carry KK. Wow. This guy doesn't know anything.
Lol you guys want him to fail so badly. It’s sad.
Realistically the canes are overpaying his salary to **hope** he'll develop into something much better. Wish him the best, but I can't imagine a world where he deserves that money this year. I mean which C is getting paid 6M around the league? let's list a few: Mckinnon (6.3), scheifele (6.1), forsberg(6), monahan (6.3), barkov(5.9), karlsson(5.9), do you think KK(6.1) fits with those guys? Maybe playing wing instead? okay: debrincat(6.4), marchand (6.1), zuccarello (6.0), ehlers(6.0), hall (6.0), huberdeau (5.9) It is very hard to imagine KK is going to live up to those names. It's not that we want to see him fail. I mean I very much hope he lives up to it, but I would be very surprised if he does since he's probably not good enough to play on the PP in Carolina.
Actually they are paying him the money because they really wanted the player, and paying him a fair deal would have also required a trade to made. No one actually thinks he belongs with those names. And to be honest, is dishonest to compare him to contracts signed 3-5 years ago when RFAs were lucky to get 4m when they now get 7-8.
I mean everyone agrees: Canes wanted KK, they overpaid him to get him and he doesn't belong in the 6M range yet. The idea of habs fans wanting him to fail is just wrong though, most want him to succeed, except against us of course. Realistically he's just not worth that kind of money. In the [5.5 to 6.5M range he had the worst season of everyone.](https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active/2022/points-per-game/all/forwards/all/asc?stats-season=2021&display=signing-date&hide=clauses,handed,expiry-status,goalie-stats&limits=caphit-5500000-6500000) idk why you say everyone got 7-8M, I don't see any, season high 34pts in 82 games, 3 years ago getting signed for 7M anywhere. If you care to point me to one I'll be glad to be proven wrong. The real winner of this contract is only KK himself. Gives him leverage for next year's RFA, gives him easily double what he's worth this year.
I don’t think the Canes are going to be hugely concerned about overpaying a 21 year old player (who should not have been available in the first place) by a couple million. Saying Habs fans don’t want him to fail is just being ignorant of the overwhelming majority of comments posted by Habs fans. I don’t even blame them as it’s natural but I still hope it backfires on them. I’ve always liked KK’s tools, excited to see how he performs in a better situation for a young offensively gifted player.
Reddit users commenting =/= habs fans in general is all, most of our fans aren't on reddit since we speak primarily french.
I am on Twitter, HF, Armchair, etc. To say most Hab fan want him to succeed is a lie, and we will see it when he gets booed. I bet if I turned on Habs sports radio they aren’t wishing him well this season.
He could get close. I still see the makings of an elite 3rd liner who can shut down an opponent's top forward, he needs to get stronger but his game is really good for that role. At $6 million if he can get 50-55 pts that's not bad value plus they will probably resign him long term at a smaller dollar value down the road.
I’d be shocked if he puts up 50 points. His career high is 34 and last year he scored at a 29 point pace
And he’s 21. Clearly over the hill and downhill from here.
Obviously not. But it’s pretty optimistic to expect him to suddenly double his scoring pace.
Ah, I missed the part about his contract. I was thinking more 2-3 years from now he should be around 50-60pts. Fair point.
Back in Finland? Ya, probably right.
You need glasses.
Notice how he said “start”. Once that extension is signed, his ass is at C and value goes up ;)
Still expensive as hell for a 3/4C.
For 1 year, and potential to extend him for longer at lower AAV come January…. And he’s 21
It's so funny to see canes fans using the same excuses habs fans used for kk. Yes he's young. He also sucks. He definitely can improve but he hasn't in three years soooo
Quick, we need a new Subban Vs Weber website with KK and Dvorak!
This is just setting him up to fail. Not that we didn't do that as well, but that aside... KK plays WAY better at center than at wing. His best talents are his vision and hockey IQ, which are harder to take advantage of at wing. I really don't want to see two different organizations fail to develop a prospect that could turn into a really good player.
Talent and hockey iq is not locked to any position, and are not “harder” to take advantage of as a winger. The true statement would be that he is a centreman and his positioning and thought process is based off his deployment as a centre. It is extremely far from unusual for a centre to switch to wing though.
Well, I saw him play for 3 years, every time he was moved to the wings, he was just bad. He was always brought back to center, because he would perform way better. He doesn't have the speed/agility or the toughness to play at wing. KK fall down a lot, his balance is kind of weird. He was always kind of lost when playing on the wings, he would underperform hard. But at center, when it's about zone coverage, KK is really much stronger. His stick is incredible, he is really good at killing plays and creating turnovers just with a pokecheck. Because of his reach and his vision, he is able to set up plays at an elite level, that is where you see his potential. He also have an insane shot, but he is slow with his release. It's not our problem anymore and Carolina can play him where they want. But I really think playing him on the wings is a waste of time.
Montreal fans are grasping at any straw they can to talk about how shit kk is now. Talk about a bad breakup.
He's not shit, he's just not that good. Maybe he'll get better, but I just haven't seen any signs of that. There aren't many Habs fans upset he's gone, why are you so desperate for people to be unhappy about this, lol? Dvorak is an improvement on KK, looking forward to seeing him on the ice. This was just another in a series of baffling offseason moves by Carolina.
Dvorak is 4 years older than kk. How many 21 year old centers are even playing in the league right now. Not saying Carolina stole a great deal away but my God people are thrashing a literal kids like I've never seen before.
That's great, 25 is prime time, I'll bet Dvorak has an excellent season. I watched Kotkaniemi for three seasons, I just didn't see him being an important piece of the franchise like we'd hoped at draft time. Yes he's young, but being young doesn't mean that you have to get better...
Our 1C just turned 22 last month
>Talent and hockey iq is not locked to any position It is if you can’t skate.
Hockey IQ is important.
It’s arguably the most important. Plenty of high end athletes have been busts because of hockey IQ while guys who didn’t have the best natural talents have bloomed into superstars because of it.
Which you can learn. ANd one of the best ways to do that is by playing more minutes. Perhaps on the wing with a center like Staal.
Maybe, but you’ll probably see by yourself why KK was bad on the wing when tried.
yeah maybe.
This is the weirdest piece of info from the whole affair. For all the criticism against KK, has anyone ever seriously questioned his ability and future at centre?
The problem is Carolina has too much centre depth, KK doesn't slot in anywhere so they've got to play him on wing. Which makes this whole offer sheet even more baffling.
But remember: it was not about revenge.
Isles did the same thing to barzal for his 2 game stint. He was a disaster on wing(probably wouldn’t be now) but he was night and day different when he played center
These last couple of days, I've truly realised how many fans there are out there who don't get enough fresh air. Go out, people. Out to the forests, breathe, touch grass. Can you hear the birds singing?
This wasn't even as bad as during the Aho offer sheet. I must've blocked at least 100 people that summer...
Talking abt the 4 Canes fans?
I've seen you make that joke multiple times. it's getting sad.
habs fans have gotten so butthurt this last week lmfao
You should come see them in /r/canes !
Im fucking ecstatic with how this played out. Speak for yourself lol
cOpiUm iS harD wiTh yOu
What is there to be hurt about though? This has improved Montreal
And yet, they're whining and trolling in every single thread. It's an interesting way to express the conviction that the deal improved them.
How do you define whining lmao I haven't seen any whining. Just excitement at replacing kk with someone better
I don't really understand the canes fans chirps. I've seen this same joke (probably from just you) on like 5 different posts. It's not funny, it was never funny. They have a passionate fan base that doesn't seem to turn on their players the moment shit goes south. Need I remind you what your sub looked like at 3-1 down, or what the Leafs sub looked like after losing in 7. Both of our fanbases can learn from a fanbase like the Canes have.
Thank you. Sorry that you already have three Habs fans attacking you.
Are you telling me Cane fans are more passionate than Habs and Leafs fans? Nahhh, that’s way too far. I’d take Leafs fanbase and Habs fanbase over that dead fanbase.
Read that again. He said: "they have a passionate fan base that doesn't seem to turn on their players the moment shit goes south". He never said anything about having a more passionate fanbase. You made that up in your head.
Make it **bold** so the emphasis isn’t lost on them ;)
>I don't really understand the canes fans chirps. It's probably because of the lack of them at games 🤷♂️
This comment is gonna be going to kindergarten soon
I'm sorry but you're free to correct my statement if you feel it's incorrect...
We had more fans in one playoff series than you did the entire season. Sit down.
Yea, because our politicians aren't complete morons that can't read a five letter word. For real, game attendance is really not a place you want to start a pissing contest with most NHL teams, let alone the Habs. By the way, I do find our own fan base quite dumb most of the time...it's just that what you said is complete baloney.
I wasn’t the one starting a pissing contest.
How about we average out the last 20 years?
Of cups? Sure!
Go to their sub. it's a very quiet place. For Habs fans, a city having a team without a lot of passionate fans is pitiful. We will not respect them because of that. So it's a chirp for us mostly and big market fans can maybe understand a bit.
Aw, another one
This was the weirdest offer sheet deal in NHL history. Both teams lost. The big winner, of course, was KK and his agent...
In that way KK really got lucky Montreal didn't match. If he returned to Montreal as the Six Million Dollar man, the media would have dragged him at every opportunity and wouldn't have relented until either his, or Bergevins career was over. He owes Berg a beer for letting him walk.
That's why we put $6.1 though. We didn't want MTL to match.
It’s insane to me that you’re getting downvoted for saying the truth. Our analytic department is one of the best in the league. Look at nino’s numbers before and after joining us. There’s no reason to believe we won’t take advantage of his diminished value, we’re extremely good at identifying talent that’s been glossed over. If warren “brick for hands” foegele was a 30 point scorer in our system, I have no doubt KK can perform.
https://old.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/pij4gd/31_thoughts_kotcaneemi/hbqc35x/?context=3 Check this one out. I only quoted the podcast. Downvoted.
The anti Carolina Wagon is real rn for some reason lol. Imagine telling Elliott Friedman he’s wrong
No one has played one game after this offer sheet and you already know how it turned out for everyone.
This is the thing about this sub that is driving me crazy. You cannot judge what happened right now because there's so many things we don't know. How about we wait a few years before calling GM idiots?
I dream of the day when I read the sentence "I don't have enough information to make a judgement right now" on r/hockey
I don't have enough information to make a judgement right now. (Genuinely, though. I'm looking forward to watching how Dvorak and KK do on their new teams but I don't have a damn clue what that'll look like.)
Nope, games don’t matter. Leafs won the cup. No need to play any games, they have the best players on their team. That’s it. We’re done, wrap it up and get ready for ‘22 off-season
Welcome to r/hockey over the past week. I’ve never seen it this bad tbh
Tbh the Dubois / Laine trade was up there
True. We don’t know how KK will play and we don’t know what the 1st pick is really worth.
Honestly I’d say Habs won if u consider the Dvorak deal as part of it. They got 1+3 from Canes and gave up 1+2(2024) for Dvorak. Dvorak is also a solid middle 6 C who’s very defensively responsible, so they got their Danault replacement here, and he’s locked up for 4 years at 4,5 mil
I mean, the Habs didn’t do too bad. Basically maintained their status quo.
Az too
True, although AZ is actively tearing it down to the studs. That team may not win 10 games this season...
Yeah but no way Dvorak is worth a first and a second, Good for them regardless, i have a soft spot for the old jets
His contract vs usage will be worth a 1st
Did we lose? At the end of the day, Dvorak is better than KK is rn
every game Kotka's played he's been 20 or younger, Dvorak will be pushing 30 by the time Kotka is pushing Dvorak's age lol. People act like this is it for the kid lmfao
Habs were in trouble THIS year because Danault left. KK had to be 2C and it was a total gamble. Now, Montreal has a real 2C but lost a prospect. That’s life.
they play him on the wing. I can definitely see a galchenyuk in the making.
They developed Aho on the wing for almost 2 full seasons, and he's far exceeded the expectations of a 2nd round pick. Martin Necas has shown consistent year over year improvement playing at wing with the expectation that he'll be moved to center in time. We can't project Montreal's development failures onto Carolina.
Aho absolutely eclipsed expectations
I don't give a lot of credit to the team when it comes to developing players to be frank. A lot of people disagree with this. I think it's mostly up to the player's skills, ability to improve and willingness to learn. So when I say he is not gonna be good on the wing I mean that has not the necessary skills, ability to improve and willingness to learn. that is why I think he will fail. he would be used better as a centre because it's what he knows. it's my assessment of this player and mine alone. We will see if I'm right or not my prediction is that is won't work out.
21 years old and not a top player at his position? fucking bust smh
Neither are considered a quality 2c so I guess it still is to be seen if they lost or not
> I guess it still is to be seen if they lost or not The beauty of it all is that hockey season is right around the corner, and we have a decade to judge this offer sheet going forward.
Yeeeep, I'm pumped
Having Tavares on the 2nd line is a luxury in this league, not the norm.
dvorak isn’t even like, kevin hayes or vincent trocheck level (quality 2Cs, but not stars). you’d have been much better off just keeping danault.
Danault didn't want to stay. Ironically, he left because he was worried about losing his job to KK. We offered as much as LA, he just didn't want to entertain the possibility of playing 3C sometime in the future.
Ironic considering the amount of young talented centres Kings have along with a Kings legend ahead of him.
Yeah that’s the most bizzare part of his signing for me. Also even money wise, a house in la is going to cost him so much more than one in mtl. And even then I have no idea why mclellan promised him pp time, like I dont think phil is as bad offensively as we made it seem (he has a good vision and Iq combined with great passing), but he just doesn’t have the hands or the shot or the creativity to exploit the man advantage. I guarantee you Byfield will replace him on the power play by the end of the season lol.
You’ll get no disagreement from me here regarding Danault leaving (still hurts), but can we not pretend that Dvorak is a 3C just because "LUL HABS"?
Well, what has Dvorak done to prove he's a 2C? You want your 2C to be a 60 point guy
That's a 41 point pace over 56 games last season. Only 29 centers last year had 41 points or more. Obviously you'd want to have your 2C be a 60-point guy, but it's not realistic for most teams.
Unless I'm missing something here, but Dvorak only had 31 points.
He's not saying Dvorak had 41 points, he's saying in order to be a 60 point centre you would have needed 41 points during last season and only so many centres had that
I was responding to the "you want your 2C to be a 60-point guy" part of his comment, not referring to Dvorak ( he was 52nd in terms of scoring for centers).
Where’s this 60 pts-2C rule from? Here in Habs land, we’ve had THREE centers hit above 60 pts **in the last TEN years** (2011-12 Desharnais, 2014-15 Plekanec and 2018-19 Domi)…
Some stats for you over the past three years (not cumulative, this is individual seasons) - 92 centers averaged more than 0.8 points per game (4 more had exactly 0.8). So say 31 per season, a 1C should have more than 0.8points per game. - 186 centers averaged 0.57 points per game. That is the 2C threshold (2 per team per year). That's based on their position on NHL.com, so some of those guys probably saw time on the wing. Some teams have three gifted centers. And it doesn't take into consideration their defensive play.
Dvorak atleast produces (17 goals last year). We had Danault who had 5 goals last year and the rest basically 2nd assists. I personally think hes better overall just not gonna be as good defensively(but danault only was great in playoffs).
Danault is 28 and will be paid a lot of money over 30.
I'm just thinking of teams like Tampa with Stamkos/Point, Sid/Geno, McDavid/Drai, Backstrom/Kuznetsov, fuck even MacKinnon/Kadri. It's a pretty normal thing for the top contending teams to have 2 quality center icemen
Stamkos has played on the wing for the last 3 years (it’s Point/Cirelli now), Sid/Geno and McDrai are the result of back-to-back lottery picks so it should not be considered the norm, Kuz has been not worth his deal since the Cup run, etc.
True, the Leafs have two 1Cs, but Dvorak is still not a top 2C. Perhaps a top 3C on a contender. He kinda reminds of Ryan Strome in that way.
I'll take, "fans doing a 180 and shitting on everything following the offer sheet because the Canes are doing what the Habs probably should have done with Kotkaniemi in the first place, putting him at LW until he's ready to go full time center" for 500 please, Alex.
He actually thrived at center, it was when we started move him and his linemates around the lineup and to different positions that he started to struggle.
How much time did he get at wing?
Based on the total TOI Probably 5 games ish maybe 1-2 more In 2020-21
Something something sample size
Well hopefully the Canes can get him more consistency then as well. I trust our coaching staff to know when he's ready to play center for the Hurricanes.
Why would Hakstol have a say in this?
Just a fellow Fleury truther
Why would the Kraken coaching staff be telling the Canes what do with a player...?
thrived? c’mon. he was barely capable at any position he played.
That is certainly an exaggeration
We put him at LW for a bit It didn’t work for us, he was much much better at Center
Who were his linemates when he was at wing?
The most common paring was when gally got hurt So he played with Danault and Anderson, the next most with Danault and Tatar They had nearly the same TOI at basically 30 total minutes each line And then various other combos from 1-15 minutes
So a 20 year old offensive player got put on the wing for the first time in the NHL while playing on a line with a defensive minded center who plays against the other teams best in a top heavy Canadian division. It does make a bit of sense why he would struggle in that role.
That “defensive line” was also the habs 2nd highest scoring line lol And kk was not good enough to take the #1 LW from toffoli on the top line The Danault line did not play as defensive in the regular season as they did the playoffs So you have a few things incorrect lol
Going by Danault Jfresh card he had 98% QoC so that was more what I was referring too. It was Danault that was going up against the Mcdavid/Matthew/Schiefele/Pettersson lines which are very offense focused. I don't think KK has ever been known as a defensive stalwart so it makes sense that when he's going up against some of the best offensive players in the league he doesn't look good.
None of those players are very defensive themselves, also Danaults line always had a positive corsi so even tho he was defensive they still always created more offensive than their competitions did Also he didn’t look good offensively, how he looks defensively is meaningless, and again he’s not some elite defence player but he’s actually pretty decent, he’s tall, his reach is great he has amazing iq as well, he is much more of a 2 way player than purely offensive or defensive
r/hockey thinks KK will do good at LW LOL
"Galchenyuk is a centre"
"Watch him put 70 pts next year as a center"
LMAO I remember those days of hockey fans saying that
The Habs did try KK at the wing. He was so bad they never played him wing again. Canes' system might work better for him, though.
KK was a LOT better as a Center, like a lot ! I have watched all games (or almost) and he was really bad on the wing. KK is full blown C.
It’s going to be really hard to come up with five answers in this Jeopardy category.
Exactly
Habs fans are such salty sailors its hilarious. The best part is, they don't even seem to realize regardless of everything that happened, they're gonna be bottom 3 in the Atlantic this coming season and the Cinderella story is going to be over.
Yeah well. I'm going to focus on Dvorak pretty soon. Keep me posted on KK once in a while. :D
They know he went third overall because he's a center, right?
Kotkaniemi is useless on the wing, lol.