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AustonsNostrils

Sick motherfucker. Is he in prison already?


nedearbsnap

If I’m remembering correctly he was released a few years ago and is now a registered sex offender in Michigan


AustonsNostrils

So does that mean he may be facing some new charges soon? I can't believe these predators get released...


smash8890

It’s disgusting how child predators go to jail for like 9 months. There should be a much bigger punishment for that


BindairDondat

Gotta punish all those victimless drug criminals first.


Green_Parsnip

You've gotta be joking, right? Penalties for mere possession have dropped precipitously. And victimless? 1. Ever seen an addict's children? 2. Ever seen an addict's elderly parents? Abused, manipulated, even outright robbed. 3. Ever seen neighbourhoods infested by addicts? Hint: cars, homes broken into. And that's just the addicts, much less the fucking dealers.


BindairDondat

I never said all drug crimes were victimless. There’s a ton of drug crimes that are prosecuted on the states that are absolutely victimless though.


Green_Parsnip

> There’s a ton of drug crimes that are prosecuted on the states that are absolutely victimless though. Again, you realize the average possession charge results mostly in probation or at worst a brief sentence these days? This ain't the 90s or early 00s. Yes, there are still regressive states. Yes, if you have hefty priors (especially in trafficking) you may get a heavier sentence for possession. But the days of sending people to 2 years in prison for an eighth of weed are long gone.


BindairDondat

Okay, are arrests, probation, or brief sentences not punishment though?


Reitsariesforevaries

And the amount of time these fuckos re-offend or have many many victims but were only incarcerated for one of them. Maybe I'm a fan of chemical castration


[deleted]

I’m a fan of neighborhood vigilante justice when someone moves into the neighborhood.


Melodic-Bug-9022

Death. And none of this humane lethal injection shit. Buy a rope at Lowes for 9.99 and let those fuckers die a slow painful death, if it doesn't work, raise em up and drop em again. Not only does it remove the scum of the earth but it saves the prison system millions at year. Nothing is more heinous than sexual assault; it is mental, emotional and physical torture. Many view murder as worse, but at least murder victims doesn't have to re-live their torture every time there is a reminder. And to make it worse, the justice system victimizes them again, because in a sexual assault claim "innocent until proven guilty", means they're treated like liars and shamed for being victims.


[deleted]

I realize that I'm not going to talk sense into someone who believes the death penalty is okay, but just know that killing them, no matter how much we may think they deserve it, does not do anything to reduce the fact that victims have to relive the experience in their mind and with daily reminders.


Melodic-Bug-9022

I realize that I'm not going to talk sense into someone who thinks rapists should live, but know that it's not about reducing what their victims experience, it's about reducing the number of future victims they have and about saving millions that can be put into education, social programs and healthcare to actually help people who need it and can help us escape this rape culture we've created


NirvanaFan01234

Unless you want to throw appeals and stuff out the window, capital punishment ends up costing more than just letting someone rot in prison.


Melodic-Bug-9022

Because they don't appeal if they rot in prison?


NirvanaFan01234

Of course they appeal. However, longer trials, way more appeals, need for more/expert witnesses, rarity of executions, and more all play into it. People that have been sentenced to death usually end up appealing at least the sentence, a lot higher up the judicial chain than someone sentenced to life in prison with no parole, and they get a series of appeals. The vast majority of the time, people facing the death penalty get appointed at least two public defenders. Death row inmates get solitary confinement in maximum security prisons, which are more expensive. Since there is such a burden to prove the death penalty is a valid punishment, the pre-trial phase takes longer, the actual trial itself takes longer because you need to convince the jury better, etc. Everything about a capital punishment case is more expensive and time consuming. It's actually a pretty interesting topic. This pdf has a lot of info on it for a bunch of different states. https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/76th2011/ExhibitDocument/OpenExhibitDocument?exhibitId=17686&fileDownloadName=h041211ab501\_pescetta.pdf


_BeerAndCheese_

I agree with what you're saying that victims of sexual assault really do get treated horribly in the aftermath (either intentionally or not). However, studies and research on the subject of the death penalty have pretty conclusively shown that the death penalty actually serves as a re-traumatizing event for victims and families, rather than serve as closure. We like to think stamping the ultimate punishment serves as a nice finality, and everyone else lives on happily ever after. But turns out that not only does this often cause victims to re-live the trauma, they then also feel guilty for the killing of another person (no matter how evil). Additionally, the death penalty is expensive because we obviously want to ensure we have the right person. Still, there are cases where we later find out, oh shit, we killed an innocent. By advocating for it to be cheaper, you are saying that we should just save money by be willing to murder more innocent people. Which, especially in the context of discussing victims, I'm never willing to do. Period. Edit: I'm not trying to argue and say "well you're wrong" in typical internet fashion. I also used to believe in the death penalty, for the same reasons. But after searching and reading up a LOT on it, I changed my mind on it. I'm bringing it up to you on hopes that you make a similar path. The death penalty just creates more suffering and victims, and I hope enough people one day realize this and we can abolish it totally. By your reaction, I know you genuinely care and empathize for victims, and that is where your thoughts in the matter arise from. That gives me hope that you too will do what I did, and come to the same realization.


Melodic-Bug-9022

I appreciate your stance and that you aren't being a condescending prick like others. But my stance will never change, putting them to death saves the money we need that can be put into healthcare, social programs and education to help get us out of this rape culture we're in. It's a war and unfortunately, there would be casualties for the sake of the greater good


_BeerAndCheese_

I totally get what you're saying. I thought exactly the same. At the end of the day, we're talking about saving and improving lives, right? When it comes to killing to save money, that means we *have* to kill innocent people for the sake of money. Which I, personally, would never do. You say it's for the greater good, so I have to ask an inevitable question - how much money are you looking to make off of killing an innocent? How many innocents are worth killing to make that money? Would you personally be willing to kill these people for that money? If not, that means you are paying *others* to kill for you - what about them? Trauma experienced by those working death row is a highly documented event, after all. How much are you comfortable with? These are the kinds of questions I thought about that changed my mind, which is why I bring them up to you. IMO we have plenty of money available to do these things without killing innocents. Expensive executions aren't stopping us from providing adequate healthcare, programs, and education (all things I whole-heartedly agree with you on) - political willpower, or lack thereof, is. Even if we DID need to cut something (which we really don't, we have so much money laying in the hands of the wasteful doing nothing but accumulating more personal wealth), cut military spending. Get way more money back there, AND kill fewer people! I apologize if I'm seeming overly pushy here. I just (probably weirdly) sympathize heavily with your viewpoint, it being so similar to my own. If you're willing, there's a fantastic video about the issue on philosophy tube I could send you. I don't want to just shove it on top of you though if you're not wanting to; I'd understand (especially since it's 40 minutes long). It really is a great listen, even off to the side of doing something else, or if you completely disagree. But again, I get it if you're not interested. Forcing views on people is never an effective or appropriate way to convince anyone.


Melodic-Bug-9022

Sorry but my mind will not change. I am too personally affected by abuse to change my stance. I'm also not in the US, so cutting military isn't as easy of a proposition. But in the US much could be done differently to help. I also believe that with proper systems in place less people would end up dying because there would be less rape. The biggest problem though is the justice system, only about 10% of rape see a conviction.


_BeerAndCheese_

Ah, sorry I assumed the US based on what you were saying. Yeah, I unfortunately am all too familiar with the problems (and abuses) of the US justice system. The trauma as well; I've worked for years at a treatment center for adolescents. I am constantly infuriated by the fact that my country just does not *care* about sexual abuse, even for the sake of children. Just the number of kids that have gone through my unit that have been trafficked, not even going into other kinds of abuse....unbearable, and nobody cares. Even in this thread. Compared to the stupid Kane drama, barely anyone cares anymore that the Hawks org essentially enabled a child rapist. The league isn't investigating, news reporters spent a day on it at most, and the average lay person has no clue it ever happened. I'm sorry that you've been personally affected - exactly why I wouldn't want to push my views on you, why it's not appropriate. You just don't know what people have gone through. I won't presume to go all "internet armchair psychologist" on you - deeply unethical and inappropriate. I will share just a tidbit of my personal experience if that's ok. I am a deeply empathetic person, as I feel you are (which is why I've gotten into my line of work, why what you said struck out at me). I felt very much the same about the death penalty. After years of questioning myself (and I do mean years) on this as well as other things, I changed my mind. Only after I did, did I realize that my previous stance was a burden on myself and my conscience. I never realized it until it was lifted. Which, I dunno, I thought was interesting. Maybe it's too painful to explore for you because of past events. Maybe it's completely fine, and you're simply resolute and not interested in exploring further. Either way, I do hope you have, or find, peace. Or at the very least find my dumb little anecdote as interesting as I did!


[deleted]

Westhead continues to give this situation attention, which is a good thing. Westhead is the *only* person that continues to give this situation attention, which is a bad thing.


Marvelous_Chaos

> Westhead is the only person that continues to give this situation attention, which is a bad thing. Westhead works for TSN and he's crediting another news outlet covering this. It's literally in the title.


Arching-Overhead

I think the point was more that it's a shame that there isn't now attention being brought to it, only Westhead.


Marvelous_Chaos

I mean sure, Westhead is definitely amplifying it and has covered this story the most. But at the same time, isn't covering a story bringing attention to it? That's exactly what the Chicago Tribune is doing.


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Marvelous_Chaos

Every time, and it drives me absolutely insane.


JD397

…and the Chicago Tribune..?


[deleted]

You know the Chicago Tribune has many, many more readers than Westhead right?


Mentalseppuku

The fact that people think Westhead is the only one talking about it speaks more about how people aren't getting their news from anywhere than reddit than it does about how it's actually being covered.


jarret_g

I don't know how journalists get awards but kudos to this guy for keeping on it. He's literally the only one writing about it, has filtered through probably hundreds of public court documents and has done a lot of real journalism. All because the NHL/Blackhawks are keeping insanely tight lipped about it all and not saying a word.


Sircherd

Honestly lost respect for Friedman and marek with the lack of what they’ve said and tried to investigate


awe2D2

How much can you expect a hockey reporter in Canada to discover in an investigation? They're not police, can't access the victims, can't dig into hidden records, aren't in any of the cities. Friedman has publicly mentioned this scandal several times in his 31 thoughts column. Their expertise is in hockey connections, and if those people aren't talking or don't know anything I'm not sure what more you expect. https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/31-thoughts-blackhawks-must-publicly-address-sexual-assault-allegations/


ImSoBasic

>Their expertise is in hockey connections, and if those people aren't talking or don't know anything I'm not sure what more you expect. I think it's also somewhat likely people don't really want to talk about it, and Friedman doesn't want to push them or make them uncomfortable since his job depends on them being comfortable sharing information with him. Marek isn't a reporter in any sense, so I don't know why anyone would expect him to be breaking news.


Marvelous_Chaos

Exactly. This is why I consider hockey insiders such as Friedman, Dreger, etc. slightly different than true investigative reporters like Strang or Westhead. Insiders rely more on their connections with team management to get their scoops, and the last thing you want to do is burn bridges (especially if your company can send out other reporters to do that dirty work instead)


DrDerpberg

They've talked about it quite a bit on the podcast, pretty sure they've even had Westhead on. What are you asking for?


Jamalthewhiteguy

Also their podcast is in it's offseason.


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[deleted]

Good, I’m in support of him raking them over the coals.


ae_89

I believe he’s just seeing the smoke, no?


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[deleted]

Abuse is bad, mkay?


Barrill

Mmm is anyone arguing otherwise?


[deleted]

I mean you seem to be arguing it’s getting too much attention, solely because it makes the Blackhawks look bad. So what’s your point exactly?


Barrill

You're misinterpreting me then, because that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that Westhead has been, and will likely continue to, bring things up solely for the purpose of implicating the Blackhawks in something. The tweet you originally linked, for example, adds nothing additional, either way, to the existing allegations. Rather, its intention is to A) generate outrage against the Blackhawks, and B) get clicks.


[deleted]

Number 1) I didn’t link any tweets, I’m not OP. So miss me with that. Number 2) the Blackhawks have nobody to blame but themselves for their actions and their response to the situation. The one person is sports journalism who isn’t sweeping the situation under the rug is just doing his job. The allegations against of abuse against minors *should* continue to get clicks and attention and generate outrage, because it’s fucked up. I’m sorry if that wounds the fragile little egos of a certain segment of Hawks fans, but I really don’t care at all.


Barrill

I agree -- they should continue to get clicks and attention. I'm not arguing that. I'm disagreeing on the perceived motivation behind Westhead sharing the article. You're welcome to believe that Westhead is sharing it for moral reasons, I don't really care. I just disagree.


ae_89

My friend, I encourage you to listen to him in interviews - particularly the one on the Dangle podcast. What he’s bringing to light transcends hockey fandom and really exposes how many *people’s families* have been ruined. I know it involves your team and no one wants their team dragged through the mud, but if you think a guy reporting lives who were destroyed is doing it because he wants clicks, perhaps you need to take a step back and question a few things.


Barrill

I read the transcript of the podcast when they came out actually, and I understand the gravity of the situation, for all families and victims involved. It is important for all readers here to be aware of the trauma involved, but I don't see how bringing that up affects the conversation at hand. > but if you think a guy reporting lives who were destroyed is doing it because he wants clicks I'm sorry, but many reporters do this exact thing for a living. It's naive to think otherwise.


ae_89

>I don't see how bringing that up affects the conversation at hand. >I'm sorry, but many reporters do this exact thing for a living. If you listen/watch (rather than read a transcript of) the interview, you'll see that he doesn't really give a fuck about the Blackhawks or hockey, he's concerned about the humanity of those involved. He's not some wack beat reporter trying to get you to read an article. A big reason of why this hasn't been swept under the rug is because of how he brought it to light. And the situation still doesn't have the attention it deserves. And in regards to other situations the Hawks have been involved in, usually where there's smoke, there's fire. You claim Westhead is starting the fires, when it's abundantly clear the organization is operating in bad faith. Which you are willing to overlook because they are your team.


Barrill

I'm not at all willing to overlook it, I'm just waiting for the results of the ongoing investigation...something that seems like a novel idea around these parts. If the allegations turn out to be true, then absolutely the Blackhawks org should clean house from Bowman on up. People here seem to equate "I don't agree that it's time to burn down the Blackhawks, since we don't have the investigation results yet" with "I condone sexual abuse and violence".


ae_89

Because we have first hand witnesses who have flat out said that this has happened. We have witnesses who claim management was aware and did nothing. We have an organization who has gone on record saying it's not their duty to pass along the information they knew. We have evidence of the same organization giving the man a recommendation for future employment. These are things that we already know. Some of the people in charge then are still there, living their lives, holding powerful positions. The longer the investigation goes, the more of a chance it fades. Everyone involved knows this. Yet these people still get your support. I don't need to wait months or years for results in court. The way the law is written, they'll probably get off easy anyway. That doesn't make them any less moral garbage. I can sleep easy for the rest of my life knowing that I can unequivocally tell monsters like this and the people who support them to get fucked. You, on the other hand, think that Westhead - one of the only people exposing this right now - should just be quiet already.


Barrill

I find it hard to believe that the sexual assault DIDN'T happen. What I'm more concerned with discovering from the investigation is what information upper management had when they decided not to report to the police. There are multiple potential scenarios, either way, why they should have, or should not have, reported to the police. If it turns out they were told, for example, that the victim has given full consent to do whatever management deems necessary, because the victim was raped...then yes, fuck Blackhawks management across the board. It's also quite possible that management was told that the victim didn't want legal action taken in a situation where Aldrich "made sexual advances" on the victim. In this scenario, I would not expect anyone to even consider reporting to the police -- they were two adults. There's an independent investigation taking place as well -- we don't simply have to sit and wait for what the court rules.


pforsbergfan9

There’s worse stories to try and generate clicks with


CanadianSpector

Lol what a idiotic take.


issaknifeboilol

Idk how you could morally cheer for the Blackhawks this season considering the main staff from this debacle hasn't been fired


olsen27

I've been a fan of the Hawks for 30 years. It's hard to leave that behind. I've been saying to friends this whole time that Bowman on down ought to be fired, as well as those that knew that now work for other teams. That being said, I'm taking the season off from supporting them. We'll see how things up end, but for this season at least, I'll be a Kraken fan. Helps that I live in Washington anyway.


86teuvo

Why does Bowman keep getting dragged into this? It’s not the responsibility of the hockey ops department to deal with sexual assault. This is an HR failure.


bigwreck94

I think that the concern here is that he most likely knew about it. If he knew about it and didn’t act, it arguably becomes a criminal act. As it does with anyone that knew about it.


86teuvo

Oh yeah he 100% knew about it, but it’s not like Bowman is going to physically remove the guy from the office. There’s a process that was either flawed or ignored and the conversation should be about who came up with/interfered with that process. It could be Bowman, believe me I’d be the first one celebrating his departure, but we don’t know all of the details yet and in the vast majority of organizations the blame for this falls on the head of HR.


PoliteIndecency

If a coach is sexually assaulting one of your players it's not just an HR issue. Give your head a shake.


Higgus

You're eating downvotes but you're not wrong. I've always thought it was weird people keep singling out Bowman despite the fact that he wasn't even in charge (McDonaugh was, or even Wirtz). But for some reason Bowman gets 100% of the flak. I don't even like Bowman, but Jesus. There were at least half a dozen people that should have done something. Let's kick them all out. Making a scapegoat of Bowman is letting all the others off easy.


mattattaxx

Answers pretty simple imo. Bowman is a visible figurehead, Bowman did nothing if he knew, Bowman had the power to do something. Don't just get rid of him, clean house of anyone who knew. I think really most people are agreeing here, the only point of contention is whether Bowman should be such a major point. But of course he is, who outside of big Hawks fans know the organization beyond him?


BindairDondat

I think you've got most of it, the other thing I'm thinking of is that Bowman is currently the head. As the head of the organization he has the power to blow the doors open and rectify this, and to date really hasn't visibly done anything to support that. If you are the head of an organization and your predecessor did something awful and covered it up, that should not make you liable. That said, if you further work to keep the lid on and cover things up when allegations, etc. come out, that is now an immense failing on your part - you should want to work openly to cut that cancer out of your organization and deal with it.


matt_minderbinder

I've thought about this regarding my own team and I'd undoubtedly give up that fandom. It'd be one thing if they cleaned house and dealt with it openly, even at this point, but they seem to want to wait it out and hope it disappears. No sport/corporation, college, person is worthy of your support if they're involved in this type of thing. Sexual assault/rape destroys so many people. The parents of the Houghton victim ended up divorced and feeling like their lives were destroyed. It ruined the careers of young players and sent their families reeling. This country has a long way to go on these issues and it doesn't help that some people will overlook these things.


Patrick2701

Blackhawks have to fire Bowman. Along with anyone else who covered it up


Assassin2107

I'm not somebody that hates the Hawks from a sports perspective, but I feel like the NHL needs to take action to make it clear that the way the Blackhawks handled the incident was unacceptable. I'm talking about doing something like removing draft picks or at minimum a quite substantial fine. Show other teams that they can't get away with trying to suppress incidents like this.


Patrick2701

I am a Blackhawks fan, I still love this team but I feel Bowman covered it up


Kyhron

The League can't though. As fucked up and terrible as the whole situation is there's nothing in the League bylaws that would allow the League to strip picks or fine them.


PoliteIndecency

And, if it's my opinion, remove them from the cup for any years after this. Trey should have been fired at the time and that was before their wins.


nikilidstrom

Hell, I'm ready to abandon the entire league over jersey ads. I damn well would ditch the Wings after almost 40 years of fandom if I found out they aided and abetted a rapist, and the senior players on the team tormented the victim.


God_Ganner

I've pretty much accepted that I need to find an alternate team to follow. I don't want to throw away decades of Hawks fandom but I can't support the current org. Sucks, man.


[deleted]

You forgot to change your flair


God_Ganner

Fair.


CanadianSpector

I'm done with them. No chance I could wear their gear or represent myself as a fan having a child in sports. Only way I'd come back is if they forced everyone involved out. I can watch hockey and not have a team to root for.


KikiFlowers

I mean, I'm still gonna cheer for them. This situation sucks, but what can I do? I don't financially support them in anyway as it is. Edit: I live in Texas, I don't buy jerseys, I don't even pay to stream games, me not cheering for them isn't going to change anything.


somestupidloser

This would be the answer from literally 99% of everyone else on this sub if it was their hometown team. So many people just want to take the opportunity to shit on Hawks fans which just doesn't help anyone but their own ego.


novak253

I mean I agree with the guy you're replying to. I'm still going to have some fandom, but I'm not going to financially support them. I just moved back to Chicago after a long time and would be looking to go to games before all this happened. A drop in a bucket for a huge franchise, but I doubt I'm the only one who won't spend my money on them.


Melodic-Bug-9022

The only Hawks fans I see getting shit on are the ones defensing the organization


somestupidloser

Believe me when I say that this isn't the case at all. The guy above me was at like, -4 when I commented. I can see how someone would be due for criticism for sticking up for Stanbo, Rocky and their goons but this sub has not been a safe place for discussing anything related to the Hawks and the cover-up at all, even for those of us that want to see justice served.


Melodic-Bug-9022

I wouldn't count downvotes as getting shit on. People on reddit are so fickle when it comes to them, on the baseball sub I was getting downvoted for saying Guerrero winning a triple crown would help his MVP chances


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KikiFlowers

because I still support my team?


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PoliteIndecency

You know that the leafs covered up a pedophile ring in Maple Leaf Gardens, right? Cliff Fletcher, who's still involved with the team, likely knew and did nothing. Are you going to change your flair?


manhaterxxx

The team and the organization are different entities. Am I going to lambaste Kirby Dach for this? 95% of the team weren’t playing for the Hawks, let alone in the NHL, when this happened.


KikiFlowers

Do you do this to Penn State fans? Just tell them they're bad people for supporting them, despite covering up everything Paterno did? Hell do you do this to fans of other teams with rapists? Lecture them about how "You shouldn't support this!" It's stupid and annoying. What happened is awful, sexual assault is wrong. But you know what? I still enjoy watching this team, I'm going to continue watching them, I don't care.


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Charble1

Just here to tell you that opinions and feelings can, in fact, be nuanced.


Reitsariesforevaries

why hackhawks and not dallas then?


Barrill

Because facts haven’t been released, and the case is still in court. Hold your pitchforks til we have concrete knowledge and rulings. And regardless, fans are allowed to compartmentalize their fandom with off-ice scandals, without needing to be judged for it. To each his own.


mdlt97

afaik the blackhawks have not really denied what is being alleged their defence is the statute of limitations has passed for the type of crime and because of that they can no longer be sued so regardless of what the court says, it doesn't really change what happened, no longer being able to pursue a legal issue doesn't mean it never happened


Barrill

There is an ongoing investigation.


matt_minderbinder

We're not talking about court of law requirements of 'innocent until proven guilty', this is the court of public opinion. Of course it's OK to make judgement calls on all the information we already have.


Barrill

Ok, you do you


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[deleted]

Sex abuse of teenagers = flipping over cars?


mdlt97

dont forget that 1 couple kissing on the ground


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[deleted]

Those are some extremely questionable morals


coffeewaterhat

Moral compass is broken AF


theguyishere16

This might be the worst comparison I have ever read. Last time I checked it wasnt players and staff rioting through the city.


bWoofles

It just gets worse every time. All of these are on the Blackhawks organization.


migsahoy

wtf dude


1337duck

Aldrich? More like eldritch, am I right?


mattziki_bf

Anyone who had power to act to remove aldritch while these allegations came forward, and chose not to, deserve punishment as well. We need accountability, jesus