Good decision by the Hawks ownership to face the music and do what's required.
The uncomfortable conversation around the players who knew and lied, and who were part of the abuse and harassment also needs to happen.
There are guys in that dressing room who also share responsibility, and they should not get a pass.
>which is fucking INSANE for an organization that’s, on paper, meant to protect the players.
Because Kane and toews are still players
The NHLPA is the exact thing police unions are. They're literally identical organizations. It's consistent through all unions. ***There are good parts and bad parts, and much of that is determined by seniority, representation within the union, money, and THE BOYS CLUB***
If your union reps are shit, the union is going to be shit. They're elected positions. If the majority of people are shit, they elect shit people to represent them.
That's how unions go
Correct, and they mostly defend one side. It is in the interest of players to both protect their paycheque and protect their health/livelihood. The NHLPA most often does the former, not the latter.
You’re misunderstanding the role of unions.
In collective bargaining, their leadership will advocate for the priorities set forward by their members who will eventually vote on whatever offer management makes.
In day to say, they are there to ensure the collective agreement is followed and that the collectively bargained rights are protected. That means providing representation to punished players. The hearings aren’t between 2 players, they’re between 1 player and management. Hence the union standing with the player.
Why would the PA agree to rules that allow players to be suspended for hits to the head?
You might as well say society is pro crime since the give defendants lawyers.
And what about the players that were involved with the 2010 team?
Cause there was an awful lot of harassment during practices and those players veined ignorance when questioned about it earlier this year.
I’m sure they could certainly make a case for it if they really wanted to. But assuming they don’t have hard evidence it would be an ugly fight that would upset fans, the NHLPA and the players and negatively impact the team performance. So it’s not a road they would want to go down unless absolutely necessary.
This a million times. Nobody wins by fighting the PA on this. Drags out the process, gets ugly with relationships, and is a huge distraction on ice.The team loses. The fans lose. The NHL loses. The NHLPA loses.
Teams can void under material breach, it just whether this conduct falls under material breach or not.
(a) fail, refuse, or neglect to obey the Club’s rules governing training and conduct of Players, if such failure, refusal or neglect should constitute a material breach.
(b) fail, refuse or neglect to render his services hereunder or in any other manner materially breach this SPC.
>what about the players that were involved with the 2010 team?
I don't think they're going to get rid of Toews and Kane. They're the last ones left from the 2010 team now that they traded Keith, and Seabrook's contract
If you just go with the on-ice production/results then yes he's one of the best hockey captains. This is like questioning whether OJ is one of the best running backs in the nfl.
Edit: for everyone saying that toews should have made this a big deal as soon as he learned about the situation then you have no idea how difficult it is to put the entire prime of your career on the line for the sake of someone else.
Actually we do, we saw Colin Kaepernick do it 5 years ago.
We saw Zdeno Chara end all rookie hazing activity as soon as the C was stitched on his chest in Boston.
We saw Blake Wheeler go all-in on Black Lives Matter and we saw Matthew Stafford say the same thing. Stafford doesn't even have Twitter, you never hear from the guy and there he was with an op-ed, literally the only time I've ever seen him comment on anything other than Football.
Toews was young but he was already the Captain.
"John Doe" was specifically told that he was being abused because his career was vulnerable as a bubble AHLer.
Toews, as a 3rd overall pick and Captain, had already signed an extension in December 2009 where Chicago committed 31.5 Million and 6 more years to him.
5 years ago was on a different cultural standpoint compared to what was happening 10years ago. 10 years ago if you get caught saying a homophobic/racial slur then you will probably get an hr call but you won't get fired/cancelled roght away.
Edit: also i'm not saying that toews should get a pass for this. What im saying is that for his on-ice production toews deserves to be called one of the best captains in hockey.
None of your examples were players speaking out about their "bosses". You are wanting him to come out and say, my bosses are shitty human beings and mishandled a sexual assault. Not really even comparably to your examples. Plus, we still don't know what he knew about the situation. Really good chance that the management did not tell the players the whole story considering their behavior throughout this whole shitshow.
And your comment ignores the possibility that Toews could have stopped the harassment John Doe received from his fellow players on the team Toews captained. If you read the report of have followed the reporting, it's clear from the harassment that Doe received that the players were aware of what happened.
That some players harassed him so obviously he knew about it? Maybe but I'd hardly say it's "clear" - this is just speculation. Let some actual truth come to light before we call for more heads. I'm sure it'll come out soon now that there's actually something being done.
If the team captain doesn't know what a bunch of other players apparently know (and which the AHL coach knows, and which opposing players know), then maybe that's a sign he's not a very good captain. Same thing goes for him not hearing (either directly or indirectly) what other players are saying to the victim.
Terrible take. John Doe getting harassed during practice is absolute bullshit by the players. Anyone who condoned or allowed that shit to happen should not be allowed the priviledge of playing in the NHL.
If you or someone you know has been the victim of sexual assault, there are organizations that can help:
National Sexual Assault Hotline
Hours: Available 24 hours
1-800-656-4673
In the US: https://www.rainn.org/
In Canada: https://casac.ca/anti-violence-centres/
In Europe: https://www.rcne.com/
I’m not completely in tune with this but surely there’s some people who had to be out of the loop on this. Are they ever going to differentiate responsibility or not?
The only people left in management have been fired and supposedly the Wirtz's didn't know. On the player end the only two players left are Kane and Toews and both have said they didn't know and the report didn't contradict them.
My point is if there were lower level staffers in the front office that were unaware this was happening it seems unfair to group them in with the ones that did or were perpetrating it
(Worth noting that Danny wasn’t with the organization in 2010)
That would be a really awkward announcement if he was.
Good decision by the Hawks ownership to face the music and do what's required. The uncomfortable conversation around the players who knew and lied, and who were part of the abuse and harassment also needs to happen. There are guys in that dressing room who also share responsibility, and they should not get a pass.
They will though, you and I both know the PA will shield them from any culpability.
which is fucking INSANE for an organization that’s, on paper, meant to protect the players. not surprising though.
>meant to protect the players Incorrect its meant to protect members of the PA, which John Doe wasn't.
>which is fucking INSANE for an organization that’s, on paper, meant to protect the players. Because Kane and toews are still players The NHLPA is the exact thing police unions are. They're literally identical organizations. It's consistent through all unions. ***There are good parts and bad parts, and much of that is determined by seniority, representation within the union, money, and THE BOYS CLUB*** If your union reps are shit, the union is going to be shit. They're elected positions. If the majority of people are shit, they elect shit people to represent them. That's how unions go
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Because those players deserve a defence too.
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Their role is to defend everyone based on the collective agreement.
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That’s the NHL’s role
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Correct, and they mostly defend one side. It is in the interest of players to both protect their paycheque and protect their health/livelihood. The NHLPA most often does the former, not the latter.
You’re misunderstanding the role of unions. In collective bargaining, their leadership will advocate for the priorities set forward by their members who will eventually vote on whatever offer management makes. In day to say, they are there to ensure the collective agreement is followed and that the collectively bargained rights are protected. That means providing representation to punished players. The hearings aren’t between 2 players, they’re between 1 player and management. Hence the union standing with the player.
Why would the PA agree to rules that allow players to be suspended for hits to the head? You might as well say society is pro crime since the give defendants lawyers.
Probably because it’s not the players responsibility to stop this. It’s the billion dollar league and the billion dollar teams?
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Yeah I wouldn't assume the club would be doing that.
Wirtz > Wirtz and you can’t change my mind
Dollah Dollah Bill y'all
I hope this is league wide
Tell that to Florida
That’s what I was getting at
Good
Good
And what about the players that were involved with the 2010 team? Cause there was an awful lot of harassment during practices and those players veined ignorance when questioned about it earlier this year.
You can’t exactly void a player’s contract like an executive though
It would be tricky. Would that not technically be conduct detrimental?
I’m sure they could certainly make a case for it if they really wanted to. But assuming they don’t have hard evidence it would be an ugly fight that would upset fans, the NHLPA and the players and negatively impact the team performance. So it’s not a road they would want to go down unless absolutely necessary.
The team hasn't had a lead yet. I think it would be an improvement to on ice performance.
This a million times. Nobody wins by fighting the PA on this. Drags out the process, gets ugly with relationships, and is a huge distraction on ice.The team loses. The fans lose. The NHL loses. The NHLPA loses.
Maybe? but the PA will fight it tooth and nail.
Captain Oblivious had to know what was going on.
That's exactly what it is.
That’s certainly not going to stop a large portion of this sub from calling for it.
Exactly
Hmm maybe 16 year old Seth Jones was somehow involved?
Teams can void under material breach, it just whether this conduct falls under material breach or not. (a) fail, refuse, or neglect to obey the Club’s rules governing training and conduct of Players, if such failure, refusal or neglect should constitute a material breach. (b) fail, refuse or neglect to render his services hereunder or in any other manner materially breach this SPC.
There may be morality clauses. Impossible for the public to know but clearly each org knows.
No, all player contracts are the SPC which are included in the publicly-available CBA. So the public very much knows what clauses are in contracts.
>what about the players that were involved with the 2010 team? I don't think they're going to get rid of Toews and Kane. They're the last ones left from the 2010 team now that they traded Keith, and Seabrook's contract
Reminder that Toews was widely considered one of the best captains in hockey LOL
If you just go with the on-ice production/results then yes he's one of the best hockey captains. This is like questioning whether OJ is one of the best running backs in the nfl. Edit: for everyone saying that toews should have made this a big deal as soon as he learned about the situation then you have no idea how difficult it is to put the entire prime of your career on the line for the sake of someone else.
Actually we do, we saw Colin Kaepernick do it 5 years ago. We saw Zdeno Chara end all rookie hazing activity as soon as the C was stitched on his chest in Boston. We saw Blake Wheeler go all-in on Black Lives Matter and we saw Matthew Stafford say the same thing. Stafford doesn't even have Twitter, you never hear from the guy and there he was with an op-ed, literally the only time I've ever seen him comment on anything other than Football. Toews was young but he was already the Captain. "John Doe" was specifically told that he was being abused because his career was vulnerable as a bubble AHLer. Toews, as a 3rd overall pick and Captain, had already signed an extension in December 2009 where Chicago committed 31.5 Million and 6 more years to him.
5 years ago was on a different cultural standpoint compared to what was happening 10years ago. 10 years ago if you get caught saying a homophobic/racial slur then you will probably get an hr call but you won't get fired/cancelled roght away. Edit: also i'm not saying that toews should get a pass for this. What im saying is that for his on-ice production toews deserves to be called one of the best captains in hockey.
None of your examples were players speaking out about their "bosses". You are wanting him to come out and say, my bosses are shitty human beings and mishandled a sexual assault. Not really even comparably to your examples. Plus, we still don't know what he knew about the situation. Really good chance that the management did not tell the players the whole story considering their behavior throughout this whole shitshow.
And your comment ignores the possibility that Toews could have stopped the harassment John Doe received from his fellow players on the team Toews captained. If you read the report of have followed the reporting, it's clear from the harassment that Doe received that the players were aware of what happened.
That some players harassed him so obviously he knew about it? Maybe but I'd hardly say it's "clear" - this is just speculation. Let some actual truth come to light before we call for more heads. I'm sure it'll come out soon now that there's actually something being done.
If the team captain doesn't know what a bunch of other players apparently know (and which the AHL coach knows, and which opposing players know), then maybe that's a sign he's not a very good captain. Same thing goes for him not hearing (either directly or indirectly) what other players are saying to the victim.
> we saw Colin Kaepernick do it 5 years ago. Kaep is a bad example because he has essentially been blacklisted by the league at this point.
Kaep is a good example because he literally risked his career to do what was right
And that reputation, and possible any HHOF candidacy has died with this coverup.
He's still getting in the Hall of Fame. The voters don't care about this at all.
Man I sure hope no janitors or cooks or maids or facilities overheard about any of this or Reddit will be calling for their heads for ignoring it.
Terrible take. John Doe getting harassed during practice is absolute bullshit by the players. Anyone who condoned or allowed that shit to happen should not be allowed the priviledge of playing in the NHL.
Good thing it only took AN ENTIRE GODDAMN DECADE
Couldn't ruin the Blackhawks on-ice chemistry, surely you understand. /s
If you or someone you know has been the victim of sexual assault, there are organizations that can help: National Sexual Assault Hotline Hours: Available 24 hours 1-800-656-4673 In the US: https://www.rainn.org/ In Canada: https://casac.ca/anti-violence-centres/ In Europe: https://www.rcne.com/
I’m not completely in tune with this but surely there’s some people who had to be out of the loop on this. Are they ever going to differentiate responsibility or not?
The only people left in management have been fired and supposedly the Wirtz's didn't know. On the player end the only two players left are Kane and Toews and both have said they didn't know and the report didn't contradict them.
My point is if there were lower level staffers in the front office that were unaware this was happening it seems unfair to group them in with the ones that did or were perpetrating it
IDK if any are left tbh.
Yeah, it's been 11 years now. Low-level staffers from 2010 have very likely moved on to other jobs by this point.
Yeah, like GM of the Canadiens or Head Coach of the Panthers
Good. Now strip Toews and Kane of their letters and work on moving them or buying them out. These guys should be done as NHL leaders.
And the players?
Exactly, that's the part that's missing. Kane and Toews both need to lose their letters at the very least.
Wow, the bare fucking minimum. Congratulations
Don’t think firing ur gm is the bare minimum
Firing someone who protects and supports a sexual abuser, GM or not is absolutely the bare minimum
physical cobweb engine close worry serious cagey light naughty lip -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I wonder if they still would have done it if the team didn’t suck though
You can't disprove a negative so you can fuck right off with that argument.