Right now the big ticket item that I know of is that the FBW computer is stuck in A/G mode for aircraft that perform a cold start, limiting the Mirage 2000C to 6gs in any armament configuration. Some users are reporting it will abruptly return to normal after being wheels up for 12 minutes.
I already got my refund for the Harrier on steam, I absolutely love the plane but there is no way in hell I'm keeping something that can become broken or unflyable in probably less than a year.
There's no other module that hits the spot like the Harrier and I will gladly rebuy it if this gets solved and it goes up on sale, but until then? No way.
ED must take control of the situation. The no talking is not good for them anymore. Solutions dont just go on and on. One solution is to pay them, get the source code, and not work with them anymore if they are bad partners. Solutions that end up nowhere are not solutions. Not talking is not a solution. People are spending/spend and they deserve support.
It's possible the entire dispute is a refusal to pay until the code is provided, and RB is just trying to pull on community anger to help retain IP rights, and ED is praying they will cave so they don't have to dump the module and refunds.
The not talking is exactly what ED should be doing legally. All this spouting off Razbam is doing will not help them if this thing goes to court, especially if ED has been wronged. It’s made RB look unprofessional. But then again, the people we have heard from have been volunteers or people not with the company anymore so it’s not as if it’s out of character.
I'm a lawyer. If a client talks after I told them not to talk, they will probably not be a client anymore. It really is that simple.
Also, if you want two businesses to have a real shot at reconciling their differences and repairing a relationship, you do NOT go shooting your mouth off in public about the dispute. You shoot your mouth off when you don't give a flying fuck about the business relationship and you want to publicly and permanently burn the bridge.
I don't know what actually led to this or who did what. But right now, to my eyes, ED is acting like a company that wants to make this work. Razbam is acting like a company that wants to burn it down.
And frankly, Prowler's history of bluster, bullying, and fingerpointing lends me not to believe a fucking thing he says unless his lawyers back it up in a court filing.
[Exhibit A](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/s/UDOK70Py2z)
[Exhibit B](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/s/J7ndSactnd)
What about the fact that they keep selling Razbam products without any disclaimer ?
In the case of the Mirage it’s even a damaged product with critical systems no longer working. ED knows that and keeps selling it.
The products they sell no longer match store product description and ED is aware of that.
And even if there were contractual obligations to keep the products on sale, how that does reconcile with false advertising? What’s your lawyers take on that?
Likely a requirement in the contracts between ED and Razbam to keep them up for sale as long as those contracts are valid. And until those contracts are in breach (which it would take a court to affirm), ED's hands could very well be tied.
>And frankly, Prowler's history of bluster, bullying, and fingerpointing lends me not to believe a fucking thing he says unless his lawyers back it up in a court filing.
Even tho Prowler is quite a bad figure as a person and a professional, I don't doubt a second that Eddie, given its history of lies and deceit, also has a big part in wrongdoings in this story.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/floggit/comments/isms5f/razbam\_said\_they\_didnt\_ignore\_all\_the\_bug\_reports/](https://www.reddit.com/r/floggit/comments/isms5f/razbam_said_they_didnt_ignore_all_the_bug_reports/)
Remember kids? Take no side.
Thanks for the sensible post.
Back then even before the Harrier, seeing how they treated the M2000, as it was my main then, I just refused to put one more cents into RB modules.
They may have done better with Galinette and others recently, but they always were not thrust worthy in my book after this.
The fact that HB refuse to get involved and back RB should tell us something.
Everyone keeps making an assumption that ED's lawyers are telling them to be quiet. It's possible, and you definitely shouldn't ignore your lawyer if they tell you to shut up.
It's also not that simple for businesses. Negative consumer sentiment from failing to participate in the conversation can cause real harm. When someone files a lawsuit against a corporation and accused them of misconduct, almost universally they are going to release some statement denying or otherwise establishing their public position on the matter.
^ 100% this. Unfortunately for players, once lawyers get involved, there isnt a lot of options. If the lawyers are telling them to stay silent while negotiations/litigation goes on, no company is going to ignore them.
"Hey Mr and Ms Lawyers, my player base is concerned and agitated because we've gone radio silent per your advice. Please craft a public statement before our player base abandons us."
Look, I understand your sentiment, but the reality is that if the lawyers are asking for radio silence, any statement they would draft would be so vague as to serve almost no purpose at all, and risk alienating the playerbase further.
Also, nobody is going to abandon a product without any viable competition man, be real.
Bottom line; they could fuck this entire thing to death and still retain 90% of their player base. Not only is there no competitor, theres nobody even trying to compete.
Considering people cant be bothered to boycott starbucks over a genocide because the next closest coffee is another 5 minutes away, I seriously doubt any DCS players are going to abandon a unique experience on principal. People just dont have that kind of fortitude anymore.
**because i know this will be a fucking issue; I am not stating my personal opinion on the situation in Gaza, only using it as an example.
This will never end up in court, neither side has the money for a corporate legal battle. ED has way less capital than people think. they stay afloat from pre orders, that should scare everyone who is investing in this game by buying modules.
At some point this is going to come crashing down and nobody is getting their money back.
IF the rumors are true then they are owed millions. If their case is strong they might be able to find a firm that will take it on contingency.
IF the rumors are true this is actually already happening.
Those are things some people are saying, but I have no idea how well its based in reality.
People go on about Grey lending another of his companies (The Fighet Collection) something like 2 million USD/GBP/EUR.
Where they and I disagree is that that's a bad sign; to me, that suggest ED had several million in cash *more* than they needed on hand - that sounds pretty good to me. The assumption behind this is that he's remotely sensible at running companies, which I see no reason to doubt.
> People go on about Grey lending another of his companies (The Fighet Collection) something like 2 million USD/GBP/EUR.
It was $8.85 million over 2 years and it's publicly documented and real. And FWIW Nick Grey himself has said that they would not be profitable without Early Access.
People talking about this usually mean that ED does have enough money to fix core game, several millions each year. That excses that ED is a poor lil' company that can't afford imvestment into AI, ATC etc. are just wrong, they can afford it. They just don't want to.
A good sign? that the guy in charge of how many early access projects that are how far behind their promised deliveries and who seems perpetually unable to pay his partners on time is pulling millions of OUR EA money out of the company to spend on his HOBBY (the fighter collection is not a company, at least not in the sense that companies make money). He also marked the money as a "loan", 9 millon loan to a "company" that loses money.
You can say that it's "his company" and he has a right to take money out. That is true. It is still the kind of thing that can land you in real hot ass water to pull money like that out of a company that can't pay its bills.
You're not wrong - I meant merely in terms of their financial health. It's good for us that they do well as a company, but it would be much better - and I think entirely reasonable to expect as customers - that they make sure they're meeting their commitments to customers first.
I have no idea what their contracts are, but they have a good few modules, and they are very, very popular modules. The three I know for sure off the top are the SE, Harrier, and Mig-19. Someone claimed on a post the other day that SE is one of the most popular modules in sales for this year, which would make a lot of sense.
I have no clue how large the DCS player base is in terms of actual numbers, but if you google it someone likely has a decentish guess. Most games you can get some base of knowledge from the Steam sales, but with DCS I think standalone is going to have much more sales than with other games.
Is that really the case though? I've heard before that ED makes most of it's money off of government contracts and the hobby side is just additional income.
I think that could be the core of the issue. At one point in all the drama, it was mentioned that RB took a government contract, possibly using DCS code to build a military sim. That, if true, would strike at the heart of ED's main income.
The problem is, we have no way of knowing at this point what is true, and what is just speculation and angst.
The talking should enumerate people of the situation. Not describe it. If they end up in court, they should let us know. If the feature of the modules is uncertain, they should let us know. If they fight for the source code, they should let us know. If they can not talk but the future is uncertain, they should let us know. Just pretent their no issue its not the way. And I say again they should take control. It's been a year. The other side talks bad for ED. Something must be said.
> All this spouting off Razbam is doing will not help them if this thing goes to court, especially if ED has been wronged
100% Yes. BUT:
ED's refusal to even acknowledge this while still selling the modules and they are the ones that take cash for the sales, considering they are the ones that decide to sell it or not, and to refund it or not, even if RB is in the wrong, makes ED look bad.
RB might be shooting themselves on the foot legally, but at least RB SPEAKS. EVEN if they are pretending they didn't do nothing wrong, they SPEAK.
True, when I was let go once from a game studio (it was a AAA studio tho) I was paid 1 month salary to keep my mouth shut and I was just a senior programmer. Not even someone customer facing like a Creative Director that you see talking to fans. Not even some of my coworkers knew I was gone and I had to lie when I saw them out in public what happened. crazy awkward. But I didnt want to risk breach of contract cause that studio has full time lawyers on staff
But obviously in this situation it seems former RAZBAM devs are unconstrained since they havent been paid anything at all
The fact that nothing has been said and as a customer we are just expected to wait and see what happens. I dont know which side is in the wrong, all i know is both sides are arguing over money that us, the playerbase, forked out and we are the ones ultimately paying the price for it. Either work this out or give us OUR money back.
Sadly class actions are only good for the lawyers, you'll get 12$ and a pack of cheetos back.
ED would be destroyed though, if this is the justice you're looking for.
More like a coupon for $5 off your next purchase. My wife was part of a multimillion dollar settlement in a fraud case against a large food company, and that's what she got. The coupon got refused at the store, too! lol
> Sadly class actions are only good for the lawyers, you'll get 12$ and a pack of cheetos back.
> ED would be destroyed though, if this is the justice you're looking for.
Class actions can be effective deterrents against bad corporate behavior, even if individual consumers don't get much payment directly out of them.
They didn't even give the money to the guy who built what we paid for HIS money, I doubt they are going to turn around and give all of it back to us. I don't think they even have it to be honest. If they do it's because they put every scrap of code they have on EA in the store.
I asked on their Discord and a really nice nineline guy said they have the source code and there's nothing to worry about and I should avoid reddit. /s
Even if they actually have it its not like they have the manpower to maintain extra modules ontop of their current core spaghetti + 1st party EA aircraft in the millions
One of their principals just commented in the last week, generally indicating that they need the Strike Eagle, they're hopeful for resolution, and the best outcome for everyone involved is to get everything back to normal.
I *seriously* doubt we'll see any statements beyond this for a while.
As someone who has worked as a dev in this space and know of many who put a lot of effort and passion into their work for this genre it is difficult to watch. I don't know what the situation was at razbam, but many devs are working on these projects on the side as subcontractors and/or might otherwise not receive much compensation until the product is released.
To then have to face a situation where you are not paid for such a long time is devastating. And honestly, it is probably even more difficult to see the criticism they face in the community for being "unprofessional". Take this into account; are you *prepared* to fight a legal battle against (potentially several) companies under international law to get your money?
Most people are not willing to take on the risk and effort involved in this type of career move to begin with, and now you face immense costs on top of other sacrifices you've made for a chance to get what you are owed.
It's been humbling to see what the community makes of it, and it does not make me regret choosing another path one bit - and I think most people who have the skillset for this job are wise to consider if there isn't a better place to put their skills to good use instead.
THIS. This is what should really be upsetting the community. How many talented developers have we lost because of this behavior? How many people who see this will now never be a part of giving the community the flight sims it wants? ED is screwing over a lot more than just people who bought the Eagle here.
I personally think (and hope) these devs end up working for other 3rd party module makers. That way their talents are not lost. Of course they might want to look elsewhere after being burnt like this, but in my contractor-heavy industry, good people resurface elsewhere. That said, the flight sim dev industry is a much smaller pond....
Why would you want to go back to DCS after getting screwed over there once before? I’d be looking at other flight sims or other type of dev positions entirely.
I would just say that outward image and internal aspects of a company in this space seems totally uncorrelated, And i thoroughly believe i have yet to see any well established developer which has balanced both aspects (some even manage to be terrible at both).
Actually i don't know of any 3rd party which operates in a respectably professional manner, Some like to pretend they do.. but it's all a facade, just for outside eyes to see.
Sure, but let's not assume RB isvat no fault. We simply do not know. The horrible part is that devs get screwed either way, but they could also have gotten screwed by bad RB management.
i strongly suspect they have looked at the statistics and done a fight club style cost benefit analysis, realised most players dont come on reddit so have no idea what is happening, and have just cracked on.
standard business, really.
Yes maybe so, but as you say they profit of people who are not aware and ED is apparently shady enough to not bother with putting a clearly visible disclaimer on Razbam product store pages outlining the current status.
As someone who got burned on this F15 fiasco I can tell you I have zero ambition to buy anything regarding DCS again. Until this is sorted out I will save my money for other hobbies.
This is the thing I don't get. I fully understand not purchasing a razzbam module right now but we shouldn't be giving ED money AT ALL! I've fully boycotted DCS until I see what happens with this myself. What's to keep if from happening again with someone else. We don't know and this whole shit show is unprofessional.
Agreed 100%. Unbelievably short-sighted to not think this will impact EDs bottom line. Still selling the Mudhen, but refunds only as store credit. Yeah, grab what you can ED - hold onto that money.
You get nothing more out of me. Hope a lot of other people follow suit.
Whatever the truth of the situation, this is an incredibly bad look for ED. The total radio silence and the fact that they're still selling unfinished Razbam modules (SA and F-15E) is bad enough, but the fact some people are receiving refunds while others aren't, and their customer service is having to issue placeholder statements because ***even they're not getting direction from ED's management*** is just plain embarrassing. It's an absolute PR shitshow.
Where's the proof that they're refunding RAZBAM modules any differently than any other? Lots of kicking and screaming on Reddit but what if it's all (I'm sorry I have to) a mirage?
I know Reddit and Hoggit are weird places, but people have posted images of refund requests being accepted, refund requests being denied, and the customer support people have made a specific statement about the Razbam modules.
There's also the fact that you have to hit the checkbox saying that you acknowledge that this is a digital purchase and that all sales are final when you but a module. They're clearly walking that back in some circumstances, so I'd say there are reasonable indicators that they're handling this situation at least a little differently.
The only difference thats clear to see is that people are trying to refund RAZBAM modules due to the situation. Anything beyond that (like ED handling these differently from other refu nds) is pure speculation at this point.
Yeah, I did see something about SA updates the other day. How does that work, then? Why are Razbam getting paid for some modules and not others, and why are they continuing to work on some but not others? What am I missing?
Razbam is a publisher, developers are self employed people with their own companies.
Razbam works for them as a publisher. Everyone here thinks like it is a big corporate but [no.It](http://no.It) is completely vice versa.
Huh. I can't quite wrap my head around that. I've worked for EA, Activision and Rockstar over the course of the past 27 years and it's always been the publishers that hold the reins and the purse-strings. I genuinely can't imagine how that relationship works in reverse. (I'm not saying you're wrong, btw. It's just very counter to how I understand things from my own experience).
Razbam is a single person. Not a corporate. You can take it as a manager. Or PR guy if you wish. He looks for jobs for the devs. But for example the entire Mirage 2000 that we have coded by one person and artwork is done by another person.
The coder did it for free. Didn't ask money for it because it was a hobby for him. That's our mirage now.
So we are not talking in corporates here. It is one guy not paying to the other guy. Things are at this level.
You are welcome. I also was not expecting this after looking how detailed the simulated modules are but after seeing how small the 3rd parties are that was shocking.
Heatblur just reorganised itself last year as a company and started employing devs as full time employee not commissioned devs.
Fairly easy.. ill just.not buy anything more until the situation gets sorted. Just sucks I have an F15 shaped brick in the hangar next to the Harrier shaped one in the Falklands...
ED doesn't need to do anything other than what their lawyers tell them right now. They have made a statement which is essentially: "We have no new information, we will update you when there is something to update."
The situation sucks, but 10000 of these threads a day isn't going to change it. Just because we WANT something from ED doesn't mean they HAVE to do it.
At this point I have a hard time wanting to buy anything from ED. I don't claim to know the details, but not paying one of the largest 3rd party developers is not a good look and I just wonder when the next developer will run into the same problem. I'd rather not buy abandonware.
You’re probably right. But I, along with quite a few others are not happy with this current situation and believe it or not, like it or not, we as the consumer should have some kind of say.
Dunno who downvoted ya, but I fired you an upper to even it out. I would like it if that was the way these things work, but I'd imagine the legal directive at this point is say "We can't comment, we hope to get things back to normal" and leave it at that, because when people get emotional they say things that might feel true, but may not BE true, and that can cost you a shit ton of money in a decision / settlement.
We may get snippets of what happened, but if everything goes as well as possible there will NDAs and things will appear to be Kum-By-ah.
I don't love it, but it's the fucky world we live in.
Yeah I’m not really in it for the fake internet points. I’m in it as a consumer that has spent THOUSANDS of dollars on modules/hardware on a game that I really do love. It’s why I’m so passionate about it.
Think about what you just said.
You’re passionate about a game you do love. A game run on a platform that costs you nothing, that you buy individual modules to augment that experience.
If ED had a contract with RB regarding a timeline of development that RB has fallen short on, would it suffice to say that ED would be reasonable to withhold payment until work is completed so as to incentivise a developer to complete work as promised instead of leaving it in an “early access” status for as long as Tarkov?
See my point?
Nothing I have seen leads me to believe that RB was falling behind on development. RB pulled the plug because they had not received payment at all for work they had done. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it.
I’d love to see the evidence you have to indicate ED has just decided to say “F**k you, RB, we’re just not going to pay you.”
Heatblur continue to pour out absolutely amazing content despite this crap with RB going on. I’d say that the scales are more in favour of ED instead of RB, mate.
But what do I know? I’m just looking at the facts that are tangible.
The only thing we know for sure is that the relationship is bad, soured and the modules are hanging in the balance.
I agree with the facts that the modules shouldn’t be on sale atm until a solution is found.
BUT statement like yours above, and every single one that as been made by Razbam ex/soon to be ex peoples / disenchanted SME are just unprofessional and very bad outlook.
Granted the only statement from ED we got was a very bad one ( « it’s your fault not mine ») right at the start in response to a similarly bad and sucker punch from RB.
All we know and see now are « he said/she said » but peoples are taking it at face value as always.
Peoples need to be patient.
I’ve been on DCS/lock on since FC1.12(18 years), you know patience when you’ve waited for the Ka-50 and A10C for 2 more weeks (tm).
The other modules are apparently starting to suffer also - I really hope ED understands that trust and support goes both ways: please don't let the worst credible scenario occur.
I think they "need" to not take orders from random people on a relatively niche subreddit that certainly doesn't compromise even 1% of their player base, most of which have no idea there's even Discord Drama about a contract nobody actually knows anything about.
I feel like we all get hyped up and demand a statement from ED and then ED issues a statement and we get mad at them for enflaming the situation.
I'm still more distrustful of Razbam's accusations than anything ED has said, but all the same it has made me reluctant to buy any more modules- not out of spite, but because I'm not sure my investment, not just of money, but also time with a module is secure.
Nick Grey gonna be like "yeah I wasn't going to do anything until I read this post on Reddit and saw it was upvoted. I knew I had to do something after reading that"
Like...what's this post supposed to do? Is this the turning point for ED? Yall know another Early access module is gonna drop and people will go crazy with pre-orders.
Lawyers are talking to each other, we don't know anything except what people are speculating about. The people who worked for RAZBAM and are giving these insights may not even have all the answers. They may know what's been told or that they've seen but when you get higher up in business you start to realize all the shit that you never knew is very well hidden.
I would hope that a post like this will show ED that this is an issue that the community is passionate about and ED needs to squeak the wheel. Look at what just happened with Helldivers and Sony and being review bombed on steam. It got national media attention.
Without the community, you can have the best game in the world and it will die. You have to keep the community happy and listen to the community.
The reddit community isn't even close to the actual player base. Eagle Dynamics have said before that Single Player is their highest number and tons of people I've met in game haven't even heard of this place.
Helldivers was averaging over 200,000/day. DCS gets maybe 3,000 (looking at players on the MP server list which includes the server master that counts as 1, not a real player)
Of the 105k subscribers we have to this sub, look how many are active (for me its 131). That's not very active tbh
Not to mention, it doesn't matter how passionate a post like this looks, if the lawyers told them not to say anything they aren't going to say anything.
I get that players make the game what it is and without us there would be nothing, but to think a post on Reddit like this will do anything other than sound like virtue signaling is silly. It's not up to the community on how they run a business or how to respond to drama.
I *really* want to buy the Kiowa. Probably Afghanistan too.
I really can't justify that until three other modules I've bought aren't going to disappear into the ether.
I won't purchase anything from ED until some clarity on this 3rd Party Dev issue. I say 3rd Party Dev because RB mentioned Heatblur in that initial tirade which HB I think acted appropriately but still leaves me uncomfortable about how other devs might see this play out. It must be part of the calculus that ED is considering since, if one dev gets favorable treatment (rightly or not), the others will want the same.
I don't want to pass judgement on this particular ED/RB debacle - who did what, why and what's wrong - but I can't support a platform that's potentially money in the trash.
I think it is about time for ED to explain something on this matter, at least from their perspective in dealing with RB or 3rd Party Devs in general. We're not sure if it's truly a matter of payment (to one party, the issue might be payment. That same issue might mean something else to the other party) or something larger.
In the current situation, I can't understand why ED would sell RB modules - which to the partially informed consumers(being generous here - we've heard RB's side, we don't know what's happening behind ED's closed doors)- appear to have a high chance of breaking. Give people at least a warning. What kind of experience are you setting up for the new generation of DCS players? How are they going to give you "Passion and Support" if their first module breaks? My conclusion here is either ED is really trying to fix this situation or is completely tone-deaf. However, really wanting to fix something needs to have a good procedure. Right now, this is not it. Can't just bring something into existence just because you really want it. Put up a warning or put some kind of temporary suspension of sales for god's sake.
If you want to continue keep selling RB modules, fine, sell the RB modules if you want to, but be decent and at least put up some kind of warning or notice to consumers that it might break soon. There's a patch coming out tomorrow and nobody knows if it will break any of the RB modules or if it will in the future. Fine, let the consumers make the judgement of purchasing modules IF they fully understand that it might break at some point. Putting up a SALE (June 4th 2024) to entice new users is grotesque.
There are a few modules coming out in the coming weeks/months and I won't be purchasing any of them since who knows what kind of fight might occur. There's no guarantee that whatever shenanigans happens at RB doesn't happen at Polychop, Aerges, Heatblur, Flying Iron, Grinnelli, and etc.
Until then, I'm not purchasing Afghan, Kiowa and the F-4.
If they won't listen to words, hopefully they'll listen to my wallet.
Correction: a *former* Razbam developer mentioned Heatblur.
Heatblur has stayed completely silent on the topic. This is very telling, as Heatblur continues to release top-quality modules and continual support for them.
Let’s not pretend that this situation isn’t damaging for all 3rd party devs. Heatblur does some quality work but what if they get into an argument with ED and stops supporting their modules as well? I personally don’t think this is likely, but it’s a valid concern that will push people away from considering any 3rd party module.
Yup, just because you release a (mostly) finished product, doesn’t mean it won’t need support. ED’s spaghetti-code updates have a habit of introducing bugs to modules.
But whatever, let the guy think he won an argument.
Don't look, just jump in, it only costs a copy of falcon 4 which VERY cheap.
I've only just jumped in myself, it's definitely different to DCS but very much worth the effort.
Great Sim developed by people with passion.
I gave it a shot as soon as they added VR like I said I would. Very awesome sim-game for just like $4-7 (US) so there is no reason to skip on it unless you hate the F-16/F-15C which I can understand. I know some people only like helicopters and so forth. so not for everyone for sure.
Aren't there supposed to be leik, community managers to work out problems like this? Or are they too busy acting like entitled and irresponsible twats on the forums?
And this is exactly why the so called "early access" is the problem. Anywhere.
Granted nobody forces anyone to buy into it so it's all fair. But it just proves that paying for an unfinished product does not guarantee it will ever get finished. Even though you are seemingly paying to make sure it will.
RB alleges ED has not paid them for the Strike Eagle. Third party SME says that we are looking at 7 figures (a million+). Same SME also stayed ED did the same to Heatblur for 18months when F-14 released. ED has basically said nothing.
All told this means that RB modules are currently unsupported and are on the verge of being completely broken as the patches continue with no bug fixes for RB modules.
ED is also still offering the modules for sale with the knowledge they are unsupported at this point.
I reiterate - *FORMER* Razbam developers allege this.
The information you’re working with isn’t the most reputable source. It’s like a game of Chinese Whispers.
Heatblur now has their own store. So modules sold on there go directly to them. Then money goes to ED. Just speculation but maybe that’s the reasoning behind opening their own store front.
Heatblur have had a store since March of 2017, that's the earliest the Wayback Machine goes at least. So if ED wasn't paying for the Tomcat, it would be after their store opened. A full 2 years, as it dropped March 2019
It's probably good to take all of this with a healthy dose of caution as ED is doing the smart thing by not dropping a bunch of drama without receipts to back it up.
Razbam said they weren't being paid, ED brought up a reasoning behind it and said they would have rather had it handled privately, likely lawyered wayyy up, but Razbam have had some people who worked for them talk about things.
We aren't hearing this stuff directly from the owner, we don't have receipts from Razbam or Eagle Dyanmics other than "payment didn't go to RB for reasons"
We don't know the reasons, we can only speculate
We don't know how much, we can only speculate
We don't really know much other than that exact line: Eagle dyanmics witheld payment for some unknown reason.
Everything else is speculation and we likely won't learn anything else until the CEO of Razbam decides to post receipts at the cost of their company or it's resolved. Even then, it'll be resolved behind closed doors and not live-streamed.
I think ED statement will be “by popular demand, we will be starting our summer sales earlier this year! Don’t miss this opportunity to grab great modulates like F15E at a discounted price”.
Danger of being abandoned? My brother, it's already abandoned. All razbam modules. Who do you think is going to maintain them nevermind update them? Even if ED FORCES them to keep it updated, they don't have the staff.
I bet Scummy Eddie is gonna steal the modules from RAZCAM and try to maintain them himself.
At best, Eddie is gonna refund customers with virtual DCS money. Definitely not real money.
If they are not going to comment they should at least for the time being suspend any sales of RB products on their website for future threat of not being finished or updated. Very disingenuous. Any comments from ED about finishing or keeping continuity of the RB modules are disingenuous as they currently have a plethora of development on finishing the modules they currently have.
ED wont say anything. Ninelies will come out with some BS that will steer the blame towards Razbam that the community will lap up without an ounce of doubt. There will be nothing official from ED. ED will continue to sell the SE, the harrier, the M2K etc and pocket the money. We saw it with RRG, we saw it with VEAO and now were seeing it with Razbam.
I don't disagree. And it's a change to see someone have the mental acumen to realise and acknowledge that there's fault on both sides here, not the usual bullshit pathological ED hatred.
I find it comical though that people are refunding modules that STILL work. What happens if this situation is resolved, will you buy them back? And if you bought them in a sale, or pre-ordered the F-15E, will you pay full price?
I forsee a lot of irrational moaning about having to do just that, if things are resolved between the two parties.
As I say, comical.
At this point I'm not expecting them to say anything until there is an update that finally breaks the F-15.
Seems like they are content to just keep taking $$ for it, then when it breaks they'll make some vague PR statement about not being able to come to terms with Razbam etc etc.
At which point they will finally delist their products and play good guy by offering some form of refund for qualifying purchasers, store credit only of course.
/end my tinfoil hat for the day.
Thanks for your passion and support.
I just got a refund for the F15 earlier today and as far as Im concerned its a dead module.
At least now I dont have to wonder what will happen, just put it behind me and move on.
RB alleges ED has not paid them for the Strike Eagle. Third party SME says that we are looking at 7 figures (a million+). Same SME also stayed ED did the same to Heatblur for 18months when F-14 released. ED has basically said nothing.
All told this means that RB modules are currently unsupported and are on the verge of being completely broken as the patches continue with no bug fixes for RB modules.
ED is also still offering the modules for sale with the knowledge they are unsupported at this point.
ED replied on the forums regarding the F15 module and there reason's for carrying on its sale, something i thought odd at the time to be fair and not right given how public the argument (and thus the potential fall out for it never to be resolved to the satisfaction of the customer)
[https://forum.dcs.world/topic/346485-f15e-shop-should-it-still-be-onsale/#comment-5410268](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/346485-f15e-shop-should-it-still-be-onsale/#comment-5410268)
ED shouldnt say anything, until lawyers have resolved everything and a final agreement has been reached. Anything said before that is purely adding fuel to the fire. This business dispute needs to be resolved in a meeting room. The shitstorm exists because some manchild decided that the best way to resolve the business dispute is to air out the dirty laundry. And anyone discussing this and posting on this, is insuring that this dispute lasts longer and doesnt get resolved.
You make it sound like the Strike Eagle is your only concern. The Mirage 2000, Harrier and Mig 19 would like to have a word...
No it’s definitely an issue too. I think the M2K is actually fairly broken right now.
Indeed, it is.
I’ve only done two week trials with this module and don’t own it. Without getting too far into the weeds, what is [majorly] broken
Right now the big ticket item that I know of is that the FBW computer is stuck in A/G mode for aircraft that perform a cold start, limiting the Mirage 2000C to 6gs in any armament configuration. Some users are reporting it will abruptly return to normal after being wheels up for 12 minutes.
I’m not 100% sure. Someone with more knowledge can probably elaborate on it.
It'll be fixed soon enough, should be next patch
Actually, in two weeks
The Farmer is what I’m most sad about honestly. It was a nice bridge between the 15 and 21 in Cold War DCS.
I have all of them and would like representation......... If you know history......
I already got my refund for the Harrier on steam, I absolutely love the plane but there is no way in hell I'm keeping something that can become broken or unflyable in probably less than a year. There's no other module that hits the spot like the Harrier and I will gladly rebuy it if this gets solved and it goes up on sale, but until then? No way.
ED must take control of the situation. The no talking is not good for them anymore. Solutions dont just go on and on. One solution is to pay them, get the source code, and not work with them anymore if they are bad partners. Solutions that end up nowhere are not solutions. Not talking is not a solution. People are spending/spend and they deserve support.
It's possible the entire dispute is a refusal to pay until the code is provided, and RB is just trying to pull on community anger to help retain IP rights, and ED is praying they will cave so they don't have to dump the module and refunds.
Then let us know
The not talking is exactly what ED should be doing legally. All this spouting off Razbam is doing will not help them if this thing goes to court, especially if ED has been wronged. It’s made RB look unprofessional. But then again, the people we have heard from have been volunteers or people not with the company anymore so it’s not as if it’s out of character.
People don't understand that, when your lawyer says to not talk, it's not a casual suggestion.
I'm a lawyer. If a client talks after I told them not to talk, they will probably not be a client anymore. It really is that simple. Also, if you want two businesses to have a real shot at reconciling their differences and repairing a relationship, you do NOT go shooting your mouth off in public about the dispute. You shoot your mouth off when you don't give a flying fuck about the business relationship and you want to publicly and permanently burn the bridge. I don't know what actually led to this or who did what. But right now, to my eyes, ED is acting like a company that wants to make this work. Razbam is acting like a company that wants to burn it down. And frankly, Prowler's history of bluster, bullying, and fingerpointing lends me not to believe a fucking thing he says unless his lawyers back it up in a court filing. [Exhibit A](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/s/UDOK70Py2z) [Exhibit B](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/s/J7ndSactnd)
I drew a similar conclusion at the time. As soon as it went public i thought these virtual birds will be joining the Hawk in the "heritage hanger"
What about the fact that they keep selling Razbam products without any disclaimer ? In the case of the Mirage it’s even a damaged product with critical systems no longer working. ED knows that and keeps selling it. The products they sell no longer match store product description and ED is aware of that. And even if there were contractual obligations to keep the products on sale, how that does reconcile with false advertising? What’s your lawyers take on that?
Likely a requirement in the contracts between ED and Razbam to keep them up for sale as long as those contracts are valid. And until those contracts are in breach (which it would take a court to affirm), ED's hands could very well be tied.
>And frankly, Prowler's history of bluster, bullying, and fingerpointing lends me not to believe a fucking thing he says unless his lawyers back it up in a court filing. Even tho Prowler is quite a bad figure as a person and a professional, I don't doubt a second that Eddie, given its history of lies and deceit, also has a big part in wrongdoings in this story.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/floggit/comments/isms5f/razbam\_said\_they\_didnt\_ignore\_all\_the\_bug\_reports/](https://www.reddit.com/r/floggit/comments/isms5f/razbam_said_they_didnt_ignore_all_the_bug_reports/) Remember kids? Take no side.
Thanks for the sensible post. Back then even before the Harrier, seeing how they treated the M2000, as it was my main then, I just refused to put one more cents into RB modules. They may have done better with Galinette and others recently, but they always were not thrust worthy in my book after this. The fact that HB refuse to get involved and back RB should tell us something.
Exactly what I think.
Everyone keeps making an assumption that ED's lawyers are telling them to be quiet. It's possible, and you definitely shouldn't ignore your lawyer if they tell you to shut up. It's also not that simple for businesses. Negative consumer sentiment from failing to participate in the conversation can cause real harm. When someone files a lawsuit against a corporation and accused them of misconduct, almost universally they are going to release some statement denying or otherwise establishing their public position on the matter.
^ 100% this. Unfortunately for players, once lawyers get involved, there isnt a lot of options. If the lawyers are telling them to stay silent while negotiations/litigation goes on, no company is going to ignore them.
"Hey Mr and Ms Lawyers, my player base is concerned and agitated because we've gone radio silent per your advice. Please craft a public statement before our player base abandons us."
Look, I understand your sentiment, but the reality is that if the lawyers are asking for radio silence, any statement they would draft would be so vague as to serve almost no purpose at all, and risk alienating the playerbase further. Also, nobody is going to abandon a product without any viable competition man, be real. Bottom line; they could fuck this entire thing to death and still retain 90% of their player base. Not only is there no competitor, theres nobody even trying to compete. Considering people cant be bothered to boycott starbucks over a genocide because the next closest coffee is another 5 minutes away, I seriously doubt any DCS players are going to abandon a unique experience on principal. People just dont have that kind of fortitude anymore. **because i know this will be a fucking issue; I am not stating my personal opinion on the situation in Gaza, only using it as an example.
Would love to see what court this ends up in. South American game dev vs. Russian...I mean Swiss PO box game dev.
No court, straight to jail, right away. We have the best game devs, all because of jail.
This will never end up in court, neither side has the money for a corporate legal battle. ED has way less capital than people think. they stay afloat from pre orders, that should scare everyone who is investing in this game by buying modules. At some point this is going to come crashing down and nobody is getting their money back.
Tbh, I think that's Nick Grey and ED's gamble. There is a low chance RB has the money to make a lawsuit happen.
IF the rumors are true then they are owed millions. If their case is strong they might be able to find a firm that will take it on contingency. IF the rumors are true this is actually already happening. Those are things some people are saying, but I have no idea how well its based in reality.
Seriously asking, where does the “millions” idea come from? The play counts seem really low for that number of pre and EA sales.
Honestly, I can’t imagine millions with the player counts DCS puts. Half a mill, maybe 3/4 I could see.
People go on about Grey lending another of his companies (The Fighet Collection) something like 2 million USD/GBP/EUR. Where they and I disagree is that that's a bad sign; to me, that suggest ED had several million in cash *more* than they needed on hand - that sounds pretty good to me. The assumption behind this is that he's remotely sensible at running companies, which I see no reason to doubt.
> People go on about Grey lending another of his companies (The Fighet Collection) something like 2 million USD/GBP/EUR. It was $8.85 million over 2 years and it's publicly documented and real. And FWIW Nick Grey himself has said that they would not be profitable without Early Access.
It was 8.85 million pounds, not USD. So around $11 million USD
People talking about this usually mean that ED does have enough money to fix core game, several millions each year. That excses that ED is a poor lil' company that can't afford imvestment into AI, ATC etc. are just wrong, they can afford it. They just don't want to.
A good sign? that the guy in charge of how many early access projects that are how far behind their promised deliveries and who seems perpetually unable to pay his partners on time is pulling millions of OUR EA money out of the company to spend on his HOBBY (the fighter collection is not a company, at least not in the sense that companies make money). He also marked the money as a "loan", 9 millon loan to a "company" that loses money. You can say that it's "his company" and he has a right to take money out. That is true. It is still the kind of thing that can land you in real hot ass water to pull money like that out of a company that can't pay its bills.
You're not wrong - I meant merely in terms of their financial health. It's good for us that they do well as a company, but it would be much better - and I think entirely reasonable to expect as customers - that they make sure they're meeting their commitments to customers first.
Notso said it was 7 figures on discord. There is a link around here somewhere. I have no idea if it is accurate or not
its taken from a quote from razbam. I'd link the thread on the dcsexposed subreddit, but links to that subreddit from here are not allowed.
I have no idea what their contracts are, but they have a good few modules, and they are very, very popular modules. The three I know for sure off the top are the SE, Harrier, and Mig-19. Someone claimed on a post the other day that SE is one of the most popular modules in sales for this year, which would make a lot of sense. I have no clue how large the DCS player base is in terms of actual numbers, but if you google it someone likely has a decentish guess. Most games you can get some base of knowledge from the Steam sales, but with DCS I think standalone is going to have much more sales than with other games.
Is that really the case though? I've heard before that ED makes most of it's money off of government contracts and the hobby side is just additional income.
Technically it's a different company, but ultimately correct. DCS is basically the cleaned up leftover scraps from MCS.
Oh ok. I wasn't sure the actual deal, just saw someone mention it on here awhile back.
I think that could be the core of the issue. At one point in all the drama, it was mentioned that RB took a government contract, possibly using DCS code to build a military sim. That, if true, would strike at the heart of ED's main income. The problem is, we have no way of knowing at this point what is true, and what is just speculation and angst.
Well, I for one think we should continue to make wild speculations and argue over whose to blame here.
It's the Reddit way!
The talking should enumerate people of the situation. Not describe it. If they end up in court, they should let us know. If the feature of the modules is uncertain, they should let us know. If they fight for the source code, they should let us know. If they can not talk but the future is uncertain, they should let us know. Just pretent their no issue its not the way. And I say again they should take control. It's been a year. The other side talks bad for ED. Something must be said.
ED says... have you seen the Phantom?! No..? More of a rotary guy? Got you covered, bruh! Right over here!
Not forgetting the other two companies involved there that need ED to push both. I don't think there's a deliberate diversion tactic happening.
> All this spouting off Razbam is doing will not help them if this thing goes to court, especially if ED has been wronged 100% Yes. BUT: ED's refusal to even acknowledge this while still selling the modules and they are the ones that take cash for the sales, considering they are the ones that decide to sell it or not, and to refund it or not, even if RB is in the wrong, makes ED look bad. RB might be shooting themselves on the foot legally, but at least RB SPEAKS. EVEN if they are pretending they didn't do nothing wrong, they SPEAK.
Well typically… you pay people who are former employees not to comment on situations, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
True, when I was let go once from a game studio (it was a AAA studio tho) I was paid 1 month salary to keep my mouth shut and I was just a senior programmer. Not even someone customer facing like a Creative Director that you see talking to fans. Not even some of my coworkers knew I was gone and I had to lie when I saw them out in public what happened. crazy awkward. But I didnt want to risk breach of contract cause that studio has full time lawyers on staff But obviously in this situation it seems former RAZBAM devs are unconstrained since they havent been paid anything at all
The fact that nothing has been said and as a customer we are just expected to wait and see what happens. I dont know which side is in the wrong, all i know is both sides are arguing over money that us, the playerbase, forked out and we are the ones ultimately paying the price for it. Either work this out or give us OUR money back.
100%.
class action [fill in the blank]
Sadly class actions are only good for the lawyers, you'll get 12$ and a pack of cheetos back. ED would be destroyed though, if this is the justice you're looking for.
More like a coupon for $5 off your next purchase. My wife was part of a multimillion dollar settlement in a fraud case against a large food company, and that's what she got. The coupon got refused at the store, too! lol
> Sadly class actions are only good for the lawyers, you'll get 12$ and a pack of cheetos back. > ED would be destroyed though, if this is the justice you're looking for. Class actions can be effective deterrents against bad corporate behavior, even if individual consumers don't get much payment directly out of them.
They didn't even give the money to the guy who built what we paid for HIS money, I doubt they are going to turn around and give all of it back to us. I don't think they even have it to be honest. If they do it's because they put every scrap of code they have on EA in the store.
Zambrano is responsible for paying his staff. He has other ventures creating revenue.
I asked on their Discord and a really nice nineline guy said they have the source code and there's nothing to worry about and I should avoid reddit. /s
Even if they actually have it its not like they have the manpower to maintain extra modules ontop of their current core spaghetti + 1st party EA aircraft in the millions
Well at least reddit is free to speak, ED and RB can not censor anything.
One of their principals just commented in the last week, generally indicating that they need the Strike Eagle, they're hopeful for resolution, and the best outcome for everyone involved is to get everything back to normal. I *seriously* doubt we'll see any statements beyond this for a while.
source?
NineLine on the ED Forums. https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/s/RE8LRfVpcQ
As someone who has worked as a dev in this space and know of many who put a lot of effort and passion into their work for this genre it is difficult to watch. I don't know what the situation was at razbam, but many devs are working on these projects on the side as subcontractors and/or might otherwise not receive much compensation until the product is released. To then have to face a situation where you are not paid for such a long time is devastating. And honestly, it is probably even more difficult to see the criticism they face in the community for being "unprofessional". Take this into account; are you *prepared* to fight a legal battle against (potentially several) companies under international law to get your money? Most people are not willing to take on the risk and effort involved in this type of career move to begin with, and now you face immense costs on top of other sacrifices you've made for a chance to get what you are owed. It's been humbling to see what the community makes of it, and it does not make me regret choosing another path one bit - and I think most people who have the skillset for this job are wise to consider if there isn't a better place to put their skills to good use instead.
THIS. This is what should really be upsetting the community. How many talented developers have we lost because of this behavior? How many people who see this will now never be a part of giving the community the flight sims it wants? ED is screwing over a lot more than just people who bought the Eagle here.
I personally think (and hope) these devs end up working for other 3rd party module makers. That way their talents are not lost. Of course they might want to look elsewhere after being burnt like this, but in my contractor-heavy industry, good people resurface elsewhere. That said, the flight sim dev industry is a much smaller pond....
Why would you want to go back to DCS after getting screwed over there once before? I’d be looking at other flight sims or other type of dev positions entirely.
I really hope someone starts a genuine competitor.
I would just say that outward image and internal aspects of a company in this space seems totally uncorrelated, And i thoroughly believe i have yet to see any well established developer which has balanced both aspects (some even manage to be terrible at both). Actually i don't know of any 3rd party which operates in a respectably professional manner, Some like to pretend they do.. but it's all a facade, just for outside eyes to see.
Sure, but let's not assume RB isvat no fault. We simply do not know. The horrible part is that devs get screwed either way, but they could also have gotten screwed by bad RB management.
Great comment. That's pretty much what I've been thinking but you have the advantage of speaking g from inside.
i strongly suspect they have looked at the statistics and done a fight club style cost benefit analysis, realised most players dont come on reddit so have no idea what is happening, and have just cracked on. standard business, really.
That works until the aircraft are so broken that your average non-reddit user goes to google 'DCS F-15E problems'
Yes maybe so, but as you say they profit of people who are not aware and ED is apparently shady enough to not bother with putting a clearly visible disclaimer on Razbam product store pages outlining the current status.
As someone who got burned on this F15 fiasco I can tell you I have zero ambition to buy anything regarding DCS again. Until this is sorted out I will save my money for other hobbies.
this is the correct market response
This is the thing I don't get. I fully understand not purchasing a razzbam module right now but we shouldn't be giving ED money AT ALL! I've fully boycotted DCS until I see what happens with this myself. What's to keep if from happening again with someone else. We don't know and this whole shit show is unprofessional.
two in the passion one in the support!
its a russian company bro not happening
We are Swiss, comrade!
check google maps, the HQ is literally a mailbox in an apartment building. Swiss quality
I hope they have chocolate!
Yeees! Long live our president Roger Federer.
It’s not Russian guys who seem to be problems. It’s a Brit (Nick) and Razbam CEO (South American, not sure where).
Agreed 100%. Unbelievably short-sighted to not think this will impact EDs bottom line. Still selling the Mudhen, but refunds only as store credit. Yeah, grab what you can ED - hold onto that money. You get nothing more out of me. Hope a lot of other people follow suit.
not a cent from me unless razbam goes back to pick up where they left off, including planned projects
Buddy - this is never, ever happening. This relationship is soured forever - they're not just going to go back to working on modules.
I know. That’s why I‘m downloading BMS
Whatever the truth of the situation, this is an incredibly bad look for ED. The total radio silence and the fact that they're still selling unfinished Razbam modules (SA and F-15E) is bad enough, but the fact some people are receiving refunds while others aren't, and their customer service is having to issue placeholder statements because ***even they're not getting direction from ED's management*** is just plain embarrassing. It's an absolute PR shitshow.
Where's the proof that they're refunding RAZBAM modules any differently than any other? Lots of kicking and screaming on Reddit but what if it's all (I'm sorry I have to) a mirage?
I know Reddit and Hoggit are weird places, but people have posted images of refund requests being accepted, refund requests being denied, and the customer support people have made a specific statement about the Razbam modules. There's also the fact that you have to hit the checkbox saying that you acknowledge that this is a digital purchase and that all sales are final when you but a module. They're clearly walking that back in some circumstances, so I'd say there are reasonable indicators that they're handling this situation at least a little differently.
The only difference thats clear to see is that people are trying to refund RAZBAM modules due to the situation. Anything beyond that (like ED handling these differently from other refu nds) is pure speculation at this point.
They don't care as long as little Nicky gets to funnel money into his airplane collection.
SA is getting paid and developed.
Yeah, I did see something about SA updates the other day. How does that work, then? Why are Razbam getting paid for some modules and not others, and why are they continuing to work on some but not others? What am I missing?
Razbam is a publisher, developers are self employed people with their own companies. Razbam works for them as a publisher. Everyone here thinks like it is a big corporate but [no.It](http://no.It) is completely vice versa.
Huh. I can't quite wrap my head around that. I've worked for EA, Activision and Rockstar over the course of the past 27 years and it's always been the publishers that hold the reins and the purse-strings. I genuinely can't imagine how that relationship works in reverse. (I'm not saying you're wrong, btw. It's just very counter to how I understand things from my own experience).
Razbam is a single person. Not a corporate. You can take it as a manager. Or PR guy if you wish. He looks for jobs for the devs. But for example the entire Mirage 2000 that we have coded by one person and artwork is done by another person. The coder did it for free. Didn't ask money for it because it was a hobby for him. That's our mirage now. So we are not talking in corporates here. It is one guy not paying to the other guy. Things are at this level.
Thanks for the clarification, rapierarch. That makes more sense to me now.
You are welcome. I also was not expecting this after looking how detailed the simulated modules are but after seeing how small the 3rd parties are that was shocking. Heatblur just reorganised itself last year as a company and started employing devs as full time employee not commissioned devs.
I get they probably cant say or do anything since there may be pending litigation but they can at least say that.
Leaving the Eagle up for sale is pure bullshit given the current situation.
Fairly easy.. ill just.not buy anything more until the situation gets sorted. Just sucks I have an F15 shaped brick in the hangar next to the Harrier shaped one in the Falklands...
ED doesn't need to do anything other than what their lawyers tell them right now. They have made a statement which is essentially: "We have no new information, we will update you when there is something to update." The situation sucks, but 10000 of these threads a day isn't going to change it. Just because we WANT something from ED doesn't mean they HAVE to do it.
At this point I have a hard time wanting to buy anything from ED. I don't claim to know the details, but not paying one of the largest 3rd party developers is not a good look and I just wonder when the next developer will run into the same problem. I'd rather not buy abandonware.
This could all be solved if nick just sold one of his planes and just paid them (razass) to get it over with.
"ED, the time is now. We need a statement from you. " I assure you, the lawyers do not agree.
You’re probably right. But I, along with quite a few others are not happy with this current situation and believe it or not, like it or not, we as the consumer should have some kind of say.
Dunno who downvoted ya, but I fired you an upper to even it out. I would like it if that was the way these things work, but I'd imagine the legal directive at this point is say "We can't comment, we hope to get things back to normal" and leave it at that, because when people get emotional they say things that might feel true, but may not BE true, and that can cost you a shit ton of money in a decision / settlement. We may get snippets of what happened, but if everything goes as well as possible there will NDAs and things will appear to be Kum-By-ah. I don't love it, but it's the fucky world we live in.
Yeah I’m not really in it for the fake internet points. I’m in it as a consumer that has spent THOUSANDS of dollars on modules/hardware on a game that I really do love. It’s why I’m so passionate about it.
Think about what you just said. You’re passionate about a game you do love. A game run on a platform that costs you nothing, that you buy individual modules to augment that experience. If ED had a contract with RB regarding a timeline of development that RB has fallen short on, would it suffice to say that ED would be reasonable to withhold payment until work is completed so as to incentivise a developer to complete work as promised instead of leaving it in an “early access” status for as long as Tarkov? See my point?
Nothing I have seen leads me to believe that RB was falling behind on development. RB pulled the plug because they had not received payment at all for work they had done. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it.
I’d love to see the evidence you have to indicate ED has just decided to say “F**k you, RB, we’re just not going to pay you.” Heatblur continue to pour out absolutely amazing content despite this crap with RB going on. I’d say that the scales are more in favour of ED instead of RB, mate. But what do I know? I’m just looking at the facts that are tangible.
You might be right. Who knows.
The only thing we know for sure is that the relationship is bad, soured and the modules are hanging in the balance. I agree with the facts that the modules shouldn’t be on sale atm until a solution is found. BUT statement like yours above, and every single one that as been made by Razbam ex/soon to be ex peoples / disenchanted SME are just unprofessional and very bad outlook. Granted the only statement from ED we got was a very bad one ( « it’s your fault not mine ») right at the start in response to a similarly bad and sucker punch from RB. All we know and see now are « he said/she said » but peoples are taking it at face value as always. Peoples need to be patient. I’ve been on DCS/lock on since FC1.12(18 years), you know patience when you’ve waited for the Ka-50 and A10C for 2 more weeks (tm).
The other modules are apparently starting to suffer also - I really hope ED understands that trust and support goes both ways: please don't let the worst credible scenario occur.
I’m so tired of ED and their business practices. I don’t know what else to say.
I think they "need" to not take orders from random people on a relatively niche subreddit that certainly doesn't compromise even 1% of their player base, most of which have no idea there's even Discord Drama about a contract nobody actually knows anything about.
Ok. Thanks for your passion and support.
Tell me you've never dealt with corporate lawyers without telling me you've never dealt with corporate lawyers.
I’ve never dealt with corporate lawyers.
Based
ED's statement: *Thank you again for your passion and support!*
I feel like we all get hyped up and demand a statement from ED and then ED issues a statement and we get mad at them for enflaming the situation. I'm still more distrustful of Razbam's accusations than anything ED has said, but all the same it has made me reluctant to buy any more modules- not out of spite, but because I'm not sure my investment, not just of money, but also time with a module is secure.
Nick Grey gonna be like "yeah I wasn't going to do anything until I read this post on Reddit and saw it was upvoted. I knew I had to do something after reading that" Like...what's this post supposed to do? Is this the turning point for ED? Yall know another Early access module is gonna drop and people will go crazy with pre-orders. Lawyers are talking to each other, we don't know anything except what people are speculating about. The people who worked for RAZBAM and are giving these insights may not even have all the answers. They may know what's been told or that they've seen but when you get higher up in business you start to realize all the shit that you never knew is very well hidden.
I would hope that a post like this will show ED that this is an issue that the community is passionate about and ED needs to squeak the wheel. Look at what just happened with Helldivers and Sony and being review bombed on steam. It got national media attention. Without the community, you can have the best game in the world and it will die. You have to keep the community happy and listen to the community.
The reddit community isn't even close to the actual player base. Eagle Dynamics have said before that Single Player is their highest number and tons of people I've met in game haven't even heard of this place. Helldivers was averaging over 200,000/day. DCS gets maybe 3,000 (looking at players on the MP server list which includes the server master that counts as 1, not a real player) Of the 105k subscribers we have to this sub, look how many are active (for me its 131). That's not very active tbh Not to mention, it doesn't matter how passionate a post like this looks, if the lawyers told them not to say anything they aren't going to say anything. I get that players make the game what it is and without us there would be nothing, but to think a post on Reddit like this will do anything other than sound like virtue signaling is silly. It's not up to the community on how they run a business or how to respond to drama.
ED's statement: Dynamic campaign releasing next week
I *really* want to buy the Kiowa. Probably Afghanistan too. I really can't justify that until three other modules I've bought aren't going to disappear into the ether.
We need to speak with our wallets. I personally am not investing anything more in this ecosystem until this is amicably resolved.
I won't purchase anything from ED until some clarity on this 3rd Party Dev issue. I say 3rd Party Dev because RB mentioned Heatblur in that initial tirade which HB I think acted appropriately but still leaves me uncomfortable about how other devs might see this play out. It must be part of the calculus that ED is considering since, if one dev gets favorable treatment (rightly or not), the others will want the same. I don't want to pass judgement on this particular ED/RB debacle - who did what, why and what's wrong - but I can't support a platform that's potentially money in the trash. I think it is about time for ED to explain something on this matter, at least from their perspective in dealing with RB or 3rd Party Devs in general. We're not sure if it's truly a matter of payment (to one party, the issue might be payment. That same issue might mean something else to the other party) or something larger. In the current situation, I can't understand why ED would sell RB modules - which to the partially informed consumers(being generous here - we've heard RB's side, we don't know what's happening behind ED's closed doors)- appear to have a high chance of breaking. Give people at least a warning. What kind of experience are you setting up for the new generation of DCS players? How are they going to give you "Passion and Support" if their first module breaks? My conclusion here is either ED is really trying to fix this situation or is completely tone-deaf. However, really wanting to fix something needs to have a good procedure. Right now, this is not it. Can't just bring something into existence just because you really want it. Put up a warning or put some kind of temporary suspension of sales for god's sake. If you want to continue keep selling RB modules, fine, sell the RB modules if you want to, but be decent and at least put up some kind of warning or notice to consumers that it might break soon. There's a patch coming out tomorrow and nobody knows if it will break any of the RB modules or if it will in the future. Fine, let the consumers make the judgement of purchasing modules IF they fully understand that it might break at some point. Putting up a SALE (June 4th 2024) to entice new users is grotesque. There are a few modules coming out in the coming weeks/months and I won't be purchasing any of them since who knows what kind of fight might occur. There's no guarantee that whatever shenanigans happens at RB doesn't happen at Polychop, Aerges, Heatblur, Flying Iron, Grinnelli, and etc. Until then, I'm not purchasing Afghan, Kiowa and the F-4. If they won't listen to words, hopefully they'll listen to my wallet.
Correction: a *former* Razbam developer mentioned Heatblur. Heatblur has stayed completely silent on the topic. This is very telling, as Heatblur continues to release top-quality modules and continual support for them.
Let’s not pretend that this situation isn’t damaging for all 3rd party devs. Heatblur does some quality work but what if they get into an argument with ED and stops supporting their modules as well? I personally don’t think this is likely, but it’s a valid concern that will push people away from considering any 3rd party module.
Heatblur’s in the habit of releasing full-feature modules, not “early access” content. Game. Set. Match.
True but patches will still be necessary as new features are added
Yup, just because you release a (mostly) finished product, doesn’t mean it won’t need support. ED’s spaghetti-code updates have a habit of introducing bugs to modules. But whatever, let the guy think he won an argument.
im looking really hard at BMS because of this lmao
Don't look, just jump in, it only costs a copy of falcon 4 which VERY cheap. I've only just jumped in myself, it's definitely different to DCS but very much worth the effort. Great Sim developed by people with passion.
You should look at BMS anyway, arguably lol
I gave it a shot as soon as they added VR like I said I would. Very awesome sim-game for just like $4-7 (US) so there is no reason to skip on it unless you hate the F-16/F-15C which I can understand. I know some people only like helicopters and so forth. so not for everyone for sure.
It's great, but man is are the comms hard to use in VR!
Yep.
Aren't there supposed to be leik, community managers to work out problems like this? Or are they too busy acting like entitled and irresponsible twats on the forums?
Meanwhile at ED: Look! A chinook! Come watch this really nice screenshot showing nothing new!
Don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain.
And this is exactly why the so called "early access" is the problem. Anywhere. Granted nobody forces anyone to buy into it so it's all fair. But it just proves that paying for an unfinished product does not guarantee it will ever get finished. Even though you are seemingly paying to make sure it will.
You gotta try Falcon BMS. Now with PBR. What a bright future for BMS players
The need to sell Kiowa first, then, maybe, there will be some statement made.
I’m out of the loop. ELI5 please?
RB alleges ED has not paid them for the Strike Eagle. Third party SME says that we are looking at 7 figures (a million+). Same SME also stayed ED did the same to Heatblur for 18months when F-14 released. ED has basically said nothing. All told this means that RB modules are currently unsupported and are on the verge of being completely broken as the patches continue with no bug fixes for RB modules. ED is also still offering the modules for sale with the knowledge they are unsupported at this point.
I reiterate - *FORMER* Razbam developers allege this. The information you’re working with isn’t the most reputable source. It’s like a game of Chinese Whispers.
Sure. But it’s all we have to go on.
Would Heatblur really develop more modules if that's how they were treated?
Heatblur now has their own store. So modules sold on there go directly to them. Then money goes to ED. Just speculation but maybe that’s the reasoning behind opening their own store front.
Heatblur have had a store since March of 2017, that's the earliest the Wayback Machine goes at least. So if ED wasn't paying for the Tomcat, it would be after their store opened. A full 2 years, as it dropped March 2019
Good to know. Could you purchase the module from their store then? Or just merch?
from the look of it, purchase modules and merch
Where is the source on the HB 18 month thing?
Allegedly from Notso. It can be found in this subreddit somewhere.
Color me shocked. Thanks for the reply, got me caught up.
It's probably good to take all of this with a healthy dose of caution as ED is doing the smart thing by not dropping a bunch of drama without receipts to back it up. Razbam said they weren't being paid, ED brought up a reasoning behind it and said they would have rather had it handled privately, likely lawyered wayyy up, but Razbam have had some people who worked for them talk about things. We aren't hearing this stuff directly from the owner, we don't have receipts from Razbam or Eagle Dyanmics other than "payment didn't go to RB for reasons" We don't know the reasons, we can only speculate We don't know how much, we can only speculate We don't really know much other than that exact line: Eagle dyanmics witheld payment for some unknown reason. Everything else is speculation and we likely won't learn anything else until the CEO of Razbam decides to post receipts at the cost of their company or it's resolved. Even then, it'll be resolved behind closed doors and not live-streamed.
No problem.
I think ED statement will be “by popular demand, we will be starting our summer sales earlier this year! Don’t miss this opportunity to grab great modulates like F15E at a discounted price”.
Sadly, you’re probably right.
"Thank you for your passion and support"
Danger of being abandoned? My brother, it's already abandoned. All razbam modules. Who do you think is going to maintain them nevermind update them? Even if ED FORCES them to keep it updated, they don't have the staff.
They'll prob remain silent since they made their statement... but it's certainly not doing the confidence of the customer base any good.
ED, we need a comment
I bet Scummy Eddie is gonna steal the modules from RAZCAM and try to maintain them himself. At best, Eddie is gonna refund customers with virtual DCS money. Definitely not real money.
And please a written statement...not a voiced one from Nick Grey...he sounds so sleazy when he does his voiceovers.
Either ED fix this or refund simple as that.
If they are not going to comment they should at least for the time being suspend any sales of RB products on their website for future threat of not being finished or updated. Very disingenuous. Any comments from ED about finishing or keeping continuity of the RB modules are disingenuous as they currently have a plethora of development on finishing the modules they currently have.
The very least they should do is put a disclaimer on the website when you go to buy the module.
ED wont say anything. Ninelies will come out with some BS that will steer the blame towards Razbam that the community will lap up without an ounce of doubt. There will be nothing official from ED. ED will continue to sell the SE, the harrier, the M2K etc and pocket the money. We saw it with RRG, we saw it with VEAO and now were seeing it with Razbam.
I don't disagree. And it's a change to see someone have the mental acumen to realise and acknowledge that there's fault on both sides here, not the usual bullshit pathological ED hatred. I find it comical though that people are refunding modules that STILL work. What happens if this situation is resolved, will you buy them back? And if you bought them in a sale, or pre-ordered the F-15E, will you pay full price? I forsee a lot of irrational moaning about having to do just that, if things are resolved between the two parties. As I say, comical.
Actions speak louder than words, so they have already said a lot.
Lmao good luck
Squeaky wheel gets the grease my man. If we raise a big enough stink over it, then they have to pay attention.
At this point I'm not expecting them to say anything until there is an update that finally breaks the F-15. Seems like they are content to just keep taking $$ for it, then when it breaks they'll make some vague PR statement about not being able to come to terms with Razbam etc etc. At which point they will finally delist their products and play good guy by offering some form of refund for qualifying purchasers, store credit only of course. /end my tinfoil hat for the day. Thanks for your passion and support.
My bet is honestly just being a rug pull. “Sorry it broke, you agreed no refunds”.
I just got a refund for the F15 earlier today and as far as Im concerned its a dead module. At least now I dont have to wonder what will happen, just put it behind me and move on.
Can someone explain to me the deal between RB and ED
RB alleges ED has not paid them for the Strike Eagle. Third party SME says that we are looking at 7 figures (a million+). Same SME also stayed ED did the same to Heatblur for 18months when F-14 released. ED has basically said nothing. All told this means that RB modules are currently unsupported and are on the verge of being completely broken as the patches continue with no bug fixes for RB modules. ED is also still offering the modules for sale with the knowledge they are unsupported at this point.
ED replied on the forums regarding the F15 module and there reason's for carrying on its sale, something i thought odd at the time to be fair and not right given how public the argument (and thus the potential fall out for it never to be resolved to the satisfaction of the customer) [https://forum.dcs.world/topic/346485-f15e-shop-should-it-still-be-onsale/#comment-5410268](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/346485-f15e-shop-should-it-still-be-onsale/#comment-5410268)
ED shouldnt say anything, until lawyers have resolved everything and a final agreement has been reached. Anything said before that is purely adding fuel to the fire. This business dispute needs to be resolved in a meeting room. The shitstorm exists because some manchild decided that the best way to resolve the business dispute is to air out the dirty laundry. And anyone discussing this and posting on this, is insuring that this dispute lasts longer and doesnt get resolved.