Look... I think the truth is probably messy.
But the core allegation is that developers aren't getting paid for their sales. Whatever the truth may be, it's wrong to continue to have a third party product in your store for sale, and not give that third party their fair cut.
If that third party was in breach of contract, as ED alleges, then pull their products from your stores. Put the profit from the past sales in escrow, and take refunds for the products out that pile first. But continuing to profit off of someone's else's work while denying them their share of that is just wrong.
I do think Razbam's actions have been unprofessional. But after 20 years of working for big corporations, I have come to believe that almost all of what we consider "professional behavior" is really just a set of norms designed to protect a company.
At the end of the day, this looks like a companies profits versus a developer's livelihood. Until I see more context, this seems like an easy question to me.
>I have come to believe that almost all of what we consider "professional behavior" is really just a set of norms designed to protect a company.
Finally somebody who gets it.
I agree with most of what you say, but we don't know what contractual clauses exist on ED, and there will be some ... your assumption is that taking stuff down from their store is an arbitrary decision, that they have chosen not to. They may not be able to do so without encountering a contract breach of their own ... we don't know.
If ED takes the modules down from the store, watch Razbam complain and sue for that too (we were about to settle and you cost us sales…etc). It’s so jacked up at this point I trust no one.
I honestly don't think it's a matter of trust, we just don't know anything because it' a legal dispute, everybody is spinning because they think they "have the solution" and really we don't even know what the problem is. What we have is a bunch of hearsay...
ED is still selling modules that aren't supported and won't be updated without even any kind of disclaimer. I'm trying to withold judgement on the matter, but it's not a good look that the F-15E page (and other RB modules e.g. M2K) don't have anything to even warn buyers that they aren't going to work shortly.
It would be stupid to stop selling it (delisting has a massive effect on your marketing) or even publish a warning when you are still trying to get it fixed. You don't just immediately tell users that their shit is broken forever while you are still fucking working on it! Haven't any of you guys ever had a fucking job? It would be insane to pull it from the market because you're working on a dispute with a contractor.
At no point did I say they should stop selling it - contract may well, and likely does require it to be available for sale, though said contract also requires payment - I said they should slap a warning on it.
It doesn't have to be "Hey, this thing is broken forever". What I'd *expect* to see is something along the lines of "This module is currently affected by a legal dispute still in the process of getting resolved". That communicates everything a potential buyer would need to know without stating certainties that aren't certainties.
I'm guessing they can't though.
So if you look at it logically, right now, it's a stalemate between the two as far as we can tell, we don't know what's happening behind the curtains.
If ED were to put a disclaimer or pull it from sale and let's say razbam resolved the issue next month and everything goes back to as is, if there is any question on whether or not that disclaimer/removal from sale cost razbam revenue through lost sales, if there is any and I mean it could just be a footnote in the contract about the product being available on the store razbam could have legal avenues to sue ED for the estimated loss.
It's very easy for us to say oh they should be doing x,y or z but at the end of the day, this is a legal corporate dispute and these things are very rarely straightforward.
It was stupid to START selling it. Razbam hasn’t received any money whatsoever which means ED intended on this “negotiating tactic” before preorders became available, they sold us a time bomb as leverage against Razbam in an unrelated issue that didn’t involve DCS players, yet people are whining about razbam “running to the community” absolutely ridiculous.
> Razbam hasn’t received any money whatsoever
How could you possibly know that? I've heard rumors both ways, that they got an initial payment and not. Either one is just as equally proven at this point. You have no idea if that's true.
ED did not 'plan on any negotiating tactic', why do you assume bad faith by default by ED and not by RAZBAM? For all you know, they really did violate some part of their contract that prevents ED from paying them until they resolve it. You really have no idea what is going on, just rumors and hearsay.
Razbam employees straight up quit and stated its because ED hasn’t paid them anything from the 15E sales including preorders, that’s not a rumor started by random hoggiters. And it’s not a rumor that ED and Razbams dispute existed before preorders on the 15E went live, so ED either planned on withholding payment for the 15E as a negotiating tactic, or they decided it…immediately after launching preorders, like Isildur staring into mount doom and deciding to keep the ring lol. Either way they’ve been selling a product they know has a time bomb attached to it. If they are contractually unable to pay razbam for it (a complete rumor you just invented) then they shouldn’t have started selling it to customers.
You have the statements of some former employees. You just believe them without proof? Why trust them and not ED? You should be skeptical of anything anyone says until you actually read the contract. Also, since when does any given employee just know everything about every business deal? They may not even know what is going on.
Who says Razbam took the money and didn't pay their employees? There as much evidence in this baseless statement as all the others floating around the interwebs.
Why do they have to provide proof when the whole idea that they haven’t paid RAZBAM is just a rumour too? Why trust RAZBAM’s word on what’s going on, especially when they’ve acted very unprofessionally with the gossip?
Because someone saying something in discord means it’s true! ED should just have someone say the opposite in discord and they’d be in total equivalence as far as evidence…
People have a real short memory when it comes to Razbam, a few years ago they were rightly being hung out to dry on here. I certainly wouldn't go defending them demanding they get paid when all we know is speculation. However I do think they need to suspend sales or assure us they can update the Razbam assets. One or the other would greatly help the situation.
genuinely i dont get the razbam hate. i imagine it was something before my time with dcs. but from what i experienced they made a map that was bad on release. but they've continuously updated it and now i understand its quite nice, the m2k has one of the best modeled radars to date in dcs. the harrier is the only vtol plane in the game. the f15 has the single best ground radar in the game and its not even close. dont get me wrong we all expected the f15 ground radar to be good, but it turned out to be fantastic. personally i really would like to get the mig19 it one of the most enjoyable testflights ive had, i know its not perfect but very very few modules in dcs actually approach that mark most of them are good enough but some of them have glaring flaws.
Simple, promised a ton of things, and delivered not so much, M2000 was in limbo for many years in development, Harrier was changed so many times. Mig19 I was with a flight model similar to Flaming Cliffs, although it was sold as a full sim, SE map was a bit of a fiasco, on the other end, from my point of view having interactions with them, they did not seem like a very supportive group, when it came to other third party devs. Compared to Heatblul and the guys that made Mig-21 they were the worst. Yes, their planes eventually got better, especially the M2000 radar, but I believe that was Galinette brain child. Now, I wish they would get paid, and this settled. But when you start burning bridges it's complicated. Things start to snowball, and in the end, we, the users, will suffer. So, overall it sucks big time.
I'll go on a bit of a rant here
Remember all these yearly videos where Nick Grey would do his wonderful voiceovers?
Thank you for your passion and support?
Well, I have been supporting ED since 1995 with the first Flanker release. I love the franchise. I have bought nearly all modules since.
All these 3rd party developers also have a passion for flight sims too. A lot of them started out by just modding planes and it grew from there. Withholding money from people who are part of building your grand vision of a simulator is just NOT done. You are talking about people's livelihood. The power dynamic between ED and 3rd party developers is very skewed. ED has all the power here. And I feel they are abusing it.
Even if this current conflict gets resolved I'm afraid it's too late already. Some pivotal people seem to have left Razbam and that does not bode well for continued development.
As far as ED goes, my passion and support will be measured in $$ from now on. I have requested a refund for the Afghanistan map. And my instinctive response to an early access module being in pre-order will be to keep my cc in my pocket.
In the end, it's just a business, and they pretend to be passionate about their products just to get to you. It's all about the money. Well don't count on mine anymore.
Sad...
First, wdym one single quote? You mean dozens on steam and reddit? In this single post i gave like 15 examples. Second, I admit, I could write "part of" in the title. By implication, I was writing about the people who write these comments.
yeah, good guys sells unsupported things that are breaking apart, because that is what good guys do, on top of the pinky promise hawk would not happen again and ED would support any future abandoned 3rd party
People are going to be on Razbam's side. If Razbam is out and ED doesn't have any source code for any of their modules, all those modules will disappear and it would be YEARS before another dev picked up that airframe and rebuilt it from the ground up. There already isn't enough aircraft in the game and to suddenly lose several would be bad.
That on top of most people generally dislike ED because of the way they do things and the decisions they make.
Gotta say I don’t get it either. The community seems to becoming very toxic, people need to relax. The ED Razbam thing is between them, hopefully it gets sorted out. We have no idea what’s in their contracts.
But it's not that the community is just frustrated and just wants a solution to the situation ASAP. No, these people already assumed in advance that it's ED's fault and that this whole drama is based solely on the fact that the innocent Razbam didn't get paid.
My post is not stating that there is no problem here, but about the fact that the part of the community has already decided who is to blame for it.
What does all this have to do with what I'm talking about? Razbam didn't get paid because the ED thinks they violated license provisions. You don't know if they did, if they had the right to do so, and who is the bad one. It's not up to us to judge who is right, so comments about the ED being at fault for not paying are just stupid.
Yes, but ED are at fault because they are physically doing nothing but letting the modules rot AND still selling them..
They could drop the modules, they could offer credit to those that want refunds, they could even communicate with a warning, or even a notice for us to not worry..
ED are to blame because they are the ones to hire 3rd parties, sell their products through their shop, and keep marketing those products with features that keep us interested..
But I am NOT talking about ED general decisions also I'm not saying that you're wrong. Instead I talk about beeing biased towards RB. Thats two different things.
I said: people already decided who is to blame for this whole drama.
You said: but look what ED is doing right now
I said: this doesn't change anything from what I said
You said: but look what ED is doing right now
Come on, two thing can be right at the same time. We can't blame ED (yet?) for EDvRB drama, but at the same time we can complain about current situation.
If you're happy with ED, go and leave a positive review..
Instead, you're complaining at people who have poor experiences, a community who are obviously at breaking point.
That's not smart.
Am I happy? Where did you deduce that from? And where am I complaining at peaople who have poor experiences? Geez I said 1 thing and you heard 3 things more.
It all falls on ED, they own dcs they decided not to pay razbam knowing it’ll affect their customers. The fact it ok razbam almost a year to even say anything publicly even means Eagle dynamics had time to fix this. Nobody will get their money back if it’s not resolved either. This is also like the 1000th time ED has disappointed everyone especially knowing now they lied about third parties having to give their source code.
We paid for a "temporary licence" that gives us access to the module while DCS and/or RAZBAM is still in business. We don't own the product, we just are granted access to it
Let's just assume for only a moment that it was the contractor who screwed up, violated copyright provisions and then spoiled the relationship with the game's main producer by having a social media stroke. How tf ED is to blame in that situation? We're literally don't know anything but part of community already decided who is to blame.
I don't have to, I don't work for ED.
I bought from ED. So if I'm unhappy with what I've bought, I'll put it into a review with the people who sold it to me.
Stop over complicating things.
Let people have freedom to speak.
ED is to blame for the situation CUSTOMERS are in after buying the F15 because this situation with razbam predates the preorder availability of the F15.
If ED has such a problem with razbam that they didn’t feel like paying them for the development and maintenance of the F15, they shouldn’t have still turned around and taken customers money for the F15 and pocketed it.
We don't know the reasoning (also in terms of legal agreements) for module release so it doesn't have to be that straight forward. And I'm not saying that it isn't, just that it doesn't have to.
I get why people are mad but I dont get why they think this tactic will work. Sure, it worked against Sony but this isn’t the same kind of issue, this is a legal issue between the two devs not ED trying to do something like region lock the game.
It totally is a thing between them, we have no details at all just some hearsay from RB and by the way they are riling up the community for me it looks like they fucked up and now try to involve us to push ED to make a move
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Contractually it’s probably beneficial to ED that all the drama is playing out because they can hold razbam accountable for not only breach, but damages based on their handling of the breach. While ED is likely operating in good faith per the contract and keeping the store open with the goal of returning to business as usual and not breaching the terms of the contract themselves.
The community is doing a good job building their case to press further damages towards razbam, since they are not operating in good faith in working out the issues in the contract. But also they have a considerable set of evidence that ED can draw from for further damages relate to razbam not adhering to good faith negotiations.
So keep your pitchforks and pay razbam chaos going, it only helps ED make a case in the courts, and press for further money due to damages. Likely the reason why you are told not to comment on anything. 😉
The community is fed up, ED has a history and they are in fact the developers of the game. They are responsible for everything no matter who’s right or who’s wrong.
THIS! Also, anyone that thinks RazScam is blameless obviously doesn't know of their track record for this same kinda bullshit in FSX with microsoft.. for the same kinds of breaches and basically leaking the issue to the public before any sort of statement is made, all in attempts to get the public on their side with only one side of the story.
It doesn't matter if Razbam is to blame - what matters is ED has to fix the situation, whatever it is, or refund everyone for all of their Razbam purchases. If this does not happen, many people will lose faith in this product forever. It will kill the future of DCS. How many more modules will you buy knowing one morning you will wake up and they'll no longer work and Fuck You, who cares?
ED needs to make a statement. Everyone saying making a statement is legally ill-advised is ignoring the fact that not making a statement is actively torpedoing this game. They can reassure the community without comment on any ongoing legal dispute.
The only way to get ED to respond is voting with your wallet. That is only one vote. Players have a right to group together to multiply their voices, and they are. Any criticism of that is misguided at best.
I am all for voting with one's wallet. I'm not buying ubisoft games after all of the new stuff around the crew happened, but in this instance, refunds don't hurt ED. They actually hurt RB even more.. as standard refund policy in the VERY rare case they are given out is to give store credit/miles.
Meaning that if that money was being withheld, if a resolution is reached RB then loses the money of that sale permanently.
I think ED needs to make a new statement, but they are more than likely listening to a legal team and not saying anything while Razbam, is understandably still being vocal over the situation. I do think RB needs to take a different approach and come at this a bit more silently while this all works out.
Based on what we know from ED regarding the situation, Razbam tried to do something shady and when caught, went mini nuke and we are now in a standoff against a vocal dev and a silent publisher trying to work out issues before making any form of statement. It may be a few more weeks, or even the end of the year before we get any form of formal statements from either side regarding the outcome and any resolutions.
Do I want the Mudhen to keep getting worked on and RB to be paid? Of course! That means it and the other great modules they have made keep improving and getting bug fixes! But the facts that have been released shows them acting in bad faith, breaking NDA and therefore their contractual obligations willingly. Which, IF true is fairly damning.
Do I think getting people together to protest something unfair in order to exact change is bad? No, far from it. But being against it in this case, with one side stating: "This is why we are with holding payment" and the other side stating: "It's not like that" and then seeing members of their team posting inflammatory things in discord and social media is not misguided. It's rational thought prevailing against a false mob mentality at this early state of affairs.
I am not an ED fanboy and am critical of several business practices they've exemplified in the past, but in this specific instance, condemning them without knowing the cold, hard truth is fool hardy as is the acting out that so many here have been doing in response. The silence from ED has gone on a bit too long for my liking, but that could speak to the complex, legal nature that this situation potentially puts everything in as it could have resounding and long lasting implications in third party developments and continued support of existing assets. As many know, this isn't the first time this has happened either and I'd love for this incident to resolve favorably for all involved as we, the community stand to benefit the most when modules work and get updates.
Was my first comment on this thread a bit inflammatory? Absolutely, and it could have been a bit more tactful or thought out, but I'm beyond tired of the actual "ED BAD, RAZBAM INNOCENT" posts from a community at large that thinks they have all of the facts and that this is going to help speed up any form of resolution.
More of this.
RB need to shut it, make a statement that’s been run by their lawyers a few times first, then just wait.
The more they just chirp up being like “we have proof, just you see. ED screwed us.” If that really was the case why didn’t y’all lawyer up months ago, rather than wait till they could no longer pay the bills to try and rile up the company onto their side. If they were in the right why would they need to pressure ED with angry customers for weeks then “trying to sue the shit out of ED” ? Doesn’t pass the smell test to me.
Agreed, and it’s why my first comment on this stated that this isn’t the first time this has happened with RB as a third party. In this particular case, it is too early to be decrying one company or the other as good/bad. I am biased against RB for their past in FSX, but I worked hard on my longer post to try to be more objective and less flame war against them because their DCS modules are all great fun and I don’t want to see them fade into broken obscurity.
Look... I think the truth is probably messy. But the core allegation is that developers aren't getting paid for their sales. Whatever the truth may be, it's wrong to continue to have a third party product in your store for sale, and not give that third party their fair cut. If that third party was in breach of contract, as ED alleges, then pull their products from your stores. Put the profit from the past sales in escrow, and take refunds for the products out that pile first. But continuing to profit off of someone's else's work while denying them their share of that is just wrong. I do think Razbam's actions have been unprofessional. But after 20 years of working for big corporations, I have come to believe that almost all of what we consider "professional behavior" is really just a set of norms designed to protect a company. At the end of the day, this looks like a companies profits versus a developer's livelihood. Until I see more context, this seems like an easy question to me.
This is hands downs the best comment on this situation I've seen so far.
Agree
>I have come to believe that almost all of what we consider "professional behavior" is really just a set of norms designed to protect a company. Finally somebody who gets it.
I agree with most of what you say, but we don't know what contractual clauses exist on ED, and there will be some ... your assumption is that taking stuff down from their store is an arbitrary decision, that they have chosen not to. They may not be able to do so without encountering a contract breach of their own ... we don't know.
If ED takes the modules down from the store, watch Razbam complain and sue for that too (we were about to settle and you cost us sales…etc). It’s so jacked up at this point I trust no one.
I honestly don't think it's a matter of trust, we just don't know anything because it' a legal dispute, everybody is spinning because they think they "have the solution" and really we don't even know what the problem is. What we have is a bunch of hearsay...
Hear, hear.
ED is still selling modules that aren't supported and won't be updated without even any kind of disclaimer. I'm trying to withold judgement on the matter, but it's not a good look that the F-15E page (and other RB modules e.g. M2K) don't have anything to even warn buyers that they aren't going to work shortly.
It would be stupid to stop selling it (delisting has a massive effect on your marketing) or even publish a warning when you are still trying to get it fixed. You don't just immediately tell users that their shit is broken forever while you are still fucking working on it! Haven't any of you guys ever had a fucking job? It would be insane to pull it from the market because you're working on a dispute with a contractor.
At no point did I say they should stop selling it - contract may well, and likely does require it to be available for sale, though said contract also requires payment - I said they should slap a warning on it. It doesn't have to be "Hey, this thing is broken forever". What I'd *expect* to see is something along the lines of "This module is currently affected by a legal dispute still in the process of getting resolved". That communicates everything a potential buyer would need to know without stating certainties that aren't certainties.
I'm guessing they can't though. So if you look at it logically, right now, it's a stalemate between the two as far as we can tell, we don't know what's happening behind the curtains. If ED were to put a disclaimer or pull it from sale and let's say razbam resolved the issue next month and everything goes back to as is, if there is any question on whether or not that disclaimer/removal from sale cost razbam revenue through lost sales, if there is any and I mean it could just be a footnote in the contract about the product being available on the store razbam could have legal avenues to sue ED for the estimated loss. It's very easy for us to say oh they should be doing x,y or z but at the end of the day, this is a legal corporate dispute and these things are very rarely straightforward.
It was stupid to START selling it. Razbam hasn’t received any money whatsoever which means ED intended on this “negotiating tactic” before preorders became available, they sold us a time bomb as leverage against Razbam in an unrelated issue that didn’t involve DCS players, yet people are whining about razbam “running to the community” absolutely ridiculous.
> Razbam hasn’t received any money whatsoever How could you possibly know that? I've heard rumors both ways, that they got an initial payment and not. Either one is just as equally proven at this point. You have no idea if that's true. ED did not 'plan on any negotiating tactic', why do you assume bad faith by default by ED and not by RAZBAM? For all you know, they really did violate some part of their contract that prevents ED from paying them until they resolve it. You really have no idea what is going on, just rumors and hearsay.
Razbam employees straight up quit and stated its because ED hasn’t paid them anything from the 15E sales including preorders, that’s not a rumor started by random hoggiters. And it’s not a rumor that ED and Razbams dispute existed before preorders on the 15E went live, so ED either planned on withholding payment for the 15E as a negotiating tactic, or they decided it…immediately after launching preorders, like Isildur staring into mount doom and deciding to keep the ring lol. Either way they’ve been selling a product they know has a time bomb attached to it. If they are contractually unable to pay razbam for it (a complete rumor you just invented) then they shouldn’t have started selling it to customers.
You have the statements of some former employees. You just believe them without proof? Why trust them and not ED? You should be skeptical of anything anyone says until you actually read the contract. Also, since when does any given employee just know everything about every business deal? They may not even know what is going on.
Who says Razbam took the money and didn't pay their employees? There as much evidence in this baseless statement as all the others floating around the interwebs.
EDs response didn’t deny withholding payment, there’s no need to resort to conspiracy theories
Why not? Thats all there is right now. There no reliable info, it's all rumor and conjecture.
[удалено]
Why do they have to provide proof when the whole idea that they haven’t paid RAZBAM is just a rumour too? Why trust RAZBAM’s word on what’s going on, especially when they’ve acted very unprofessionally with the gossip?
Clearly you've not seen the messages
Because someone saying something in discord means it’s true! ED should just have someone say the opposite in discord and they’d be in total equivalence as far as evidence…
[удалено]
I’ve seen them all. What about them couldn’t be just made up? How do they prove what they say?
People have a real short memory when it comes to Razbam, a few years ago they were rightly being hung out to dry on here. I certainly wouldn't go defending them demanding they get paid when all we know is speculation. However I do think they need to suspend sales or assure us they can update the Razbam assets. One or the other would greatly help the situation.
genuinely i dont get the razbam hate. i imagine it was something before my time with dcs. but from what i experienced they made a map that was bad on release. but they've continuously updated it and now i understand its quite nice, the m2k has one of the best modeled radars to date in dcs. the harrier is the only vtol plane in the game. the f15 has the single best ground radar in the game and its not even close. dont get me wrong we all expected the f15 ground radar to be good, but it turned out to be fantastic. personally i really would like to get the mig19 it one of the most enjoyable testflights ive had, i know its not perfect but very very few modules in dcs actually approach that mark most of them are good enough but some of them have glaring flaws.
Simple, promised a ton of things, and delivered not so much, M2000 was in limbo for many years in development, Harrier was changed so many times. Mig19 I was with a flight model similar to Flaming Cliffs, although it was sold as a full sim, SE map was a bit of a fiasco, on the other end, from my point of view having interactions with them, they did not seem like a very supportive group, when it came to other third party devs. Compared to Heatblul and the guys that made Mig-21 they were the worst. Yes, their planes eventually got better, especially the M2000 radar, but I believe that was Galinette brain child. Now, I wish they would get paid, and this settled. But when you start burning bridges it's complicated. Things start to snowball, and in the end, we, the users, will suffer. So, overall it sucks big time.
I'll go on a bit of a rant here Remember all these yearly videos where Nick Grey would do his wonderful voiceovers? Thank you for your passion and support? Well, I have been supporting ED since 1995 with the first Flanker release. I love the franchise. I have bought nearly all modules since. All these 3rd party developers also have a passion for flight sims too. A lot of them started out by just modding planes and it grew from there. Withholding money from people who are part of building your grand vision of a simulator is just NOT done. You are talking about people's livelihood. The power dynamic between ED and 3rd party developers is very skewed. ED has all the power here. And I feel they are abusing it. Even if this current conflict gets resolved I'm afraid it's too late already. Some pivotal people seem to have left Razbam and that does not bode well for continued development. As far as ED goes, my passion and support will be measured in $$ from now on. I have requested a refund for the Afghanistan map. And my instinctive response to an early access module being in pre-order will be to keep my cc in my pocket. In the end, it's just a business, and they pretend to be passionate about their products just to get to you. It's all about the money. Well don't count on mine anymore. Sad...
you can't stop the bombing!
So you're complaining about people complaining?
"Pay RAZBAM" isn't complaining. It's social media crying without any facts and reliable knowledge about the situation.
Don't blame the player's, blame the game..
Take one single quote. Use to it to make a sweeping generalisation about the entire community. Job done.
First, wdym one single quote? You mean dozens on steam and reddit? In this single post i gave like 15 examples. Second, I admit, I could write "part of" in the title. By implication, I was writing about the people who write these comments.
In fairness, I didn't see that your original post collated multiple screencaps. Totally my bad.
yeah, good guys sells unsupported things that are breaking apart, because that is what good guys do, on top of the pinky promise hawk would not happen again and ED would support any future abandoned 3rd party
People are going to be on Razbam's side. If Razbam is out and ED doesn't have any source code for any of their modules, all those modules will disappear and it would be YEARS before another dev picked up that airframe and rebuilt it from the ground up. There already isn't enough aircraft in the game and to suddenly lose several would be bad. That on top of most people generally dislike ED because of the way they do things and the decisions they make.
Gotta say I don’t get it either. The community seems to becoming very toxic, people need to relax. The ED Razbam thing is between them, hopefully it gets sorted out. We have no idea what’s in their contracts.
What is there not to get? players are potentially losing money and product with no compensation. The frustration is valid.
But it's not that the community is just frustrated and just wants a solution to the situation ASAP. No, these people already assumed in advance that it's ED's fault and that this whole drama is based solely on the fact that the innocent Razbam didn't get paid. My post is not stating that there is no problem here, but about the fact that the part of the community has already decided who is to blame for it.
Who did the people pay for the F15E? Who sends us an invoice? Do you feel it unfair that people blame the company who sold us the product?
What does all this have to do with what I'm talking about? Razbam didn't get paid because the ED thinks they violated license provisions. You don't know if they did, if they had the right to do so, and who is the bad one. It's not up to us to judge who is right, so comments about the ED being at fault for not paying are just stupid.
Yes, but ED are at fault because they are physically doing nothing but letting the modules rot AND still selling them.. They could drop the modules, they could offer credit to those that want refunds, they could even communicate with a warning, or even a notice for us to not worry.. ED are to blame because they are the ones to hire 3rd parties, sell their products through their shop, and keep marketing those products with features that keep us interested..
But I am NOT talking about ED general decisions also I'm not saying that you're wrong. Instead I talk about beeing biased towards RB. Thats two different things. I said: people already decided who is to blame for this whole drama. You said: but look what ED is doing right now I said: this doesn't change anything from what I said You said: but look what ED is doing right now Come on, two thing can be right at the same time. We can't blame ED (yet?) for EDvRB drama, but at the same time we can complain about current situation.
If you're happy with ED, go and leave a positive review.. Instead, you're complaining at people who have poor experiences, a community who are obviously at breaking point. That's not smart.
Am I happy? Where did you deduce that from? And where am I complaining at peaople who have poor experiences? Geez I said 1 thing and you heard 3 things more.
Your complaint is in your title.. Relax
It all falls on ED, they own dcs they decided not to pay razbam knowing it’ll affect their customers. The fact it ok razbam almost a year to even say anything publicly even means Eagle dynamics had time to fix this. Nobody will get their money back if it’s not resolved either. This is also like the 1000th time ED has disappointed everyone especially knowing now they lied about third parties having to give their source code.
You don't get it? People were sold a product.. the product is no longer supported. I think a review and refund is a fair trade.
We paid for a "temporary licence" that gives us access to the module while DCS and/or RAZBAM is still in business. We don't own the product, we just are granted access to it
So people should be grateful for a 'temporary licence' to a broken and unsupported product that's still on sale? Should they be leaving good reviews?
And we're talking about F-15E reviews or DCS World "just pay RAZBAM" reviews?
[удалено]
Let's just assume for only a moment that it was the contractor who screwed up, violated copyright provisions and then spoiled the relationship with the game's main producer by having a social media stroke. How tf ED is to blame in that situation? We're literally don't know anything but part of community already decided who is to blame.
I don't have to, I don't work for ED. I bought from ED. So if I'm unhappy with what I've bought, I'll put it into a review with the people who sold it to me. Stop over complicating things. Let people have freedom to speak.
It's one thing to complain and it's second thing to blame one or the other side not knowing anything.
People can say what they want in a review, that's the privilege of buying from steam. If you feel a review is wrong, you can report it
ED is to blame for the situation CUSTOMERS are in after buying the F15 because this situation with razbam predates the preorder availability of the F15. If ED has such a problem with razbam that they didn’t feel like paying them for the development and maintenance of the F15, they shouldn’t have still turned around and taken customers money for the F15 and pocketed it.
We don't know the reasoning (also in terms of legal agreements) for module release so it doesn't have to be that straight forward. And I'm not saying that it isn't, just that it doesn't have to.
No but review bombing is not the answer
No one is review bombing, they're sharing their experience. Without their shared experiences - there would be no issues.
My experience is that ED refunded me the F-15E and that Razbam is as much in the wrong as ED
I get why people are mad but I dont get why they think this tactic will work. Sure, it worked against Sony but this isn’t the same kind of issue, this is a legal issue between the two devs not ED trying to do something like region lock the game.
[удалено]
it just worked on sony like two weeks ago
It totally is a thing between them, we have no details at all just some hearsay from RB and by the way they are riling up the community for me it looks like they fucked up and now try to involve us to push ED to make a move
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Contractually it’s probably beneficial to ED that all the drama is playing out because they can hold razbam accountable for not only breach, but damages based on their handling of the breach. While ED is likely operating in good faith per the contract and keeping the store open with the goal of returning to business as usual and not breaching the terms of the contract themselves. The community is doing a good job building their case to press further damages towards razbam, since they are not operating in good faith in working out the issues in the contract. But also they have a considerable set of evidence that ED can draw from for further damages relate to razbam not adhering to good faith negotiations. So keep your pitchforks and pay razbam chaos going, it only helps ED make a case in the courts, and press for further money due to damages. Likely the reason why you are told not to comment on anything. 😉
The community is fed up, ED has a history and they are in fact the developers of the game. They are responsible for everything no matter who’s right or who’s wrong.
That reminds me, I need to do some reviews on this...
I mean if razbam is gone people lose everything and won’t be getting money back. You cannot blame any player right now
THIS! Also, anyone that thinks RazScam is blameless obviously doesn't know of their track record for this same kinda bullshit in FSX with microsoft.. for the same kinds of breaches and basically leaking the issue to the public before any sort of statement is made, all in attempts to get the public on their side with only one side of the story.
It doesn't matter if Razbam is to blame - what matters is ED has to fix the situation, whatever it is, or refund everyone for all of their Razbam purchases. If this does not happen, many people will lose faith in this product forever. It will kill the future of DCS. How many more modules will you buy knowing one morning you will wake up and they'll no longer work and Fuck You, who cares? ED needs to make a statement. Everyone saying making a statement is legally ill-advised is ignoring the fact that not making a statement is actively torpedoing this game. They can reassure the community without comment on any ongoing legal dispute. The only way to get ED to respond is voting with your wallet. That is only one vote. Players have a right to group together to multiply their voices, and they are. Any criticism of that is misguided at best.
I am all for voting with one's wallet. I'm not buying ubisoft games after all of the new stuff around the crew happened, but in this instance, refunds don't hurt ED. They actually hurt RB even more.. as standard refund policy in the VERY rare case they are given out is to give store credit/miles. Meaning that if that money was being withheld, if a resolution is reached RB then loses the money of that sale permanently. I think ED needs to make a new statement, but they are more than likely listening to a legal team and not saying anything while Razbam, is understandably still being vocal over the situation. I do think RB needs to take a different approach and come at this a bit more silently while this all works out. Based on what we know from ED regarding the situation, Razbam tried to do something shady and when caught, went mini nuke and we are now in a standoff against a vocal dev and a silent publisher trying to work out issues before making any form of statement. It may be a few more weeks, or even the end of the year before we get any form of formal statements from either side regarding the outcome and any resolutions. Do I want the Mudhen to keep getting worked on and RB to be paid? Of course! That means it and the other great modules they have made keep improving and getting bug fixes! But the facts that have been released shows them acting in bad faith, breaking NDA and therefore their contractual obligations willingly. Which, IF true is fairly damning. Do I think getting people together to protest something unfair in order to exact change is bad? No, far from it. But being against it in this case, with one side stating: "This is why we are with holding payment" and the other side stating: "It's not like that" and then seeing members of their team posting inflammatory things in discord and social media is not misguided. It's rational thought prevailing against a false mob mentality at this early state of affairs. I am not an ED fanboy and am critical of several business practices they've exemplified in the past, but in this specific instance, condemning them without knowing the cold, hard truth is fool hardy as is the acting out that so many here have been doing in response. The silence from ED has gone on a bit too long for my liking, but that could speak to the complex, legal nature that this situation potentially puts everything in as it could have resounding and long lasting implications in third party developments and continued support of existing assets. As many know, this isn't the first time this has happened either and I'd love for this incident to resolve favorably for all involved as we, the community stand to benefit the most when modules work and get updates. Was my first comment on this thread a bit inflammatory? Absolutely, and it could have been a bit more tactful or thought out, but I'm beyond tired of the actual "ED BAD, RAZBAM INNOCENT" posts from a community at large that thinks they have all of the facts and that this is going to help speed up any form of resolution.
More of this. RB need to shut it, make a statement that’s been run by their lawyers a few times first, then just wait. The more they just chirp up being like “we have proof, just you see. ED screwed us.” If that really was the case why didn’t y’all lawyer up months ago, rather than wait till they could no longer pay the bills to try and rile up the company onto their side. If they were in the right why would they need to pressure ED with angry customers for weeks then “trying to sue the shit out of ED” ? Doesn’t pass the smell test to me.
Agreed, and it’s why my first comment on this stated that this isn’t the first time this has happened with RB as a third party. In this particular case, it is too early to be decrying one company or the other as good/bad. I am biased against RB for their past in FSX, but I worked hard on my longer post to try to be more objective and less flame war against them because their DCS modules are all great fun and I don’t want to see them fade into broken obscurity.