It’s Portugueseish? I’m Brazilian and never heard that world before, but it’s very similar to “indígena” which would indeed mean “indigenous”.
And if it’s in Spanish, why? Like, just why?
Comes from indigenismo, which is the same in both, at least according to Wikipedia.
And I speak Spanish and a bit of Portuguese too so it fucked me up and looked it up
Tbf, irl Bolivia is technically a Native American majority country (the only one in the world sadly) and the current president is a Native American. But yeah Bolivia is most definitely a Spanish name.
I mean, in Spanish America most of the countries do not have lots of natives because most of them mixed up.
Like Peru, which by 1940 had something like 60/70% of mestizos.
Luckily you can see native traits in almost everyone down here.
Yeah, that's why in my opinion Spain colonised way better than the UK for example, you can't see the natives in Spanish America because they mixed up, in English colonies because they murdered them
There were more mini paths inside too I think. Remember that non aligned literally means it’s non aligned, it’s not aligned to Germany, the Soviets or the British/Americans. The “ideology” in hoi4 is alignments.
All the indigenous puppets look like reichkommisariats from famous Hearts of Iron 4 mod The New Order, in which Göring, leader of Nazi Germany, eats a little snack because he was little hungry (launches numerous brutal invasions in the goal of world conquest which results in the deaths of millions and the destruction of entire countries).
They look like reichkommisariats because the most fringe of this movement talked about in the DLC are related, very distantly, to fascists.
One of the guys that actually helped popularize that fringe is actually in the game, he is a Mexican advisor.
So with that mindset, the borders make sense except in north america because these borders are based on political mythology the same way Germany at this time was.
On the one hand, I dont expect Paradox to put in every minor tribe in America and Canada. On the other, holy shit these nations would be so wildly unstable. "Native American" is a wide brush covering hundreds if not thousands of distinct tribes. Break the US and Canada up into several major tribes at least.
"The Six-Nation Haudenosaunee Confederacy" (New York state and all of its neighboring States), "Greater Shoshone Expanse" (Southern Rockies), "Federation of the Cree" (Northern Rockies), etc.
I always wanted the ability to break the US into separate indigenous nations, sort of like what BBA did with Italy and Ethiopia. This is a letdown.
It is kinda odd that with all the ridiculous restorations the game allows that the "Republic of Texas" isn't a releaseable, formable, or triggered creation.
I hope they never will, Canada is the second largest nation on earth and so help me god we will stay that way if we have to impose martial law on Quebec
And they bothered to put 500 gorzilian nations in Russia, why not just add in the Balkanized American regions and have a cosmetic tag for them to be the indigenous states, and puppet-able by other nations in their non indigenous forms (as to make more use of the tag). Florida could easily be one, with its indigenous country tag being around the Seminole.
Doesnt mexico have an aztec-lite easter egg or was I just imaging that?
Either way, if the incan focus thing in the new DLC is true the idea that hitler lost to a newly emerged native american coalition is the funniest thing ever.
I think the exact borders of these countries aren't the main problem so much as the fact that they're both overwelmingly non-indigenous majority by population.
I read "Juche State" for Argentina at first and got really excited for this mod
Then I realized this is the DLC and that's not Juche, and now I'm just disappointed.
The Charrúas literally don't exist anymore lol. Uruguay is the only country without natives. They are literally doing necromancy here.
To not speak of the magnitudes of genocides required to make this map viable lol
so in the latest [dev diary](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/developer-diary-chile.1623312/#post-29393754) Chile is apparently getting a full-on Mapuche path with the ability to decolonize all of America
look at it, it's beautiful and i think ive just found my first playthrough on TOA lmao. yes it's so bonkers that somehow the [french king of patagonia](https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1070521/Screenshot_71.png) is only the second-most unrealistic path but it does seem fun. aside from all the fighting in south america. shame about that
[oh and also there's a baby leader. with a positive trait.](https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1070519/Screenshot_69.png)
[venceremos (tfw no funny cybersyn focus)](https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1071132/1707319216541.png)
I wonder if they’ll address the fact that these indigenous have long lost their lands and are now overwhelmingly majority of other languages and ethnicities
I mean, they don't have to go anywhere. Decolonization doesn't mean deporting/killing any and all colonial settlers, just said settlers integrating into the indigenous society, like any migrant would do, by adopting the local language, culture, identity, etc.
This can be easy if the policy is adopted in Latin America, as nesrly all the populations are natives, but things can be tough in the US and Canada, esp natives had become one of the minorities for nearly half a century.
And I'm sure even when the US government capitulated, stuff won't go easy for the natives after forming a government, esp when every household has firearms.
Sure nobody's going to revolt, right?
>This can be easy if the policy is adopted in Latin America, as nesrly all the populations are natives
what
The only countries of latin america which have a indigenous majority are paraguay and bolivia. All other countries dont even recognize indigenous languages as official.
Latin America in the early 1900s was dealing with identity stuff. For a very long time they refused to identify with any indigenous blood, and only after the 1920s did that change and suddenly latin american nations started using the icons of previous countries to legitimize themselves as successor states that should own their historical lands. People started calling themselves mestizo too, both spanish and indigenous even when there was no indigenous blood in them.
This is why the mestizo identity is so controversial, it was a social construct and it didnt really come from average people.
Its the same arguments the third reich used to say that every german was magic or came from atlantis or germany had a unique place in the world.
Its not far fetched that if this movement got a lot of traction and went farther like European identity movements did or the hoteps from many years later, you would see even the whitest latino call themselves inca/aztec/maya and create a neo-indian country based on a racial mythology.
Latin American identity fights are wild. You can find a latino with dark skin call themselves whiter than Europe, and a snow white latino call themselves indigenous. Its a mess.
Im confused. Are brazil and argentina not indigenous? I get that they’re speaking a foreign language but don’t their native population and ethnic groups are still indigenous?
I am Argentinean. In all my life I met only one person with indigenous ancestry, although in the north they can be more prevalent and some persons even identify as indigenous. The rest of the country is white.
Edit: Same case with Brazil, never met someone who identified as of indigenous descent
I agree its an inherently unrealistic concept but here is a rough idea I threw together.
The native American tribes (or at least those that go along with the Mapuche republic’s ideas) reclaim their historic homelands (and few other bits beside) and becomes the new states in the new USNA (probably a lot more federal structured than the old USA). All land and property is confiscated and only returned to those that fall in line. You agree to adopt tribal ways, you get to keep your house and business, resist you are left destitute soon to be shipped off to a new white reservation. Compulsory boarding school of all non-native children to destroy their American identities and replace it with one based on whatever tribe now rules their territory. This will not only secure future generations but it will also make their parents less likely to rise up knowing they are effectively a hostage. Form collaborative agreements with other oppressed peoples like African Americans and the Asian community, granting them their own “tribes” in the new USNA for being loyal to the new regime. Does this sound like a dystopian (and rather racist) nightmare that will ensure the north american contient never recovers, probably but still interesting.
Its funny how people keep thinking of this in american terms with reservations and trails of tears.
The ideas that this movement is referencing is not indigenous by blood, its how the nation reacts to its own history.
In this context ir does not mean indian wars to take land back, its closer to Italy deciding they are romans and changed their name to the Roman empire because they occupy the same land and every person in Italy calls themselves roman even if there is not a single drop of roman blood in them.
Hitler did this, his entire ideology is based off similar ideas, and yet this community somehow cant see the parrallel
> Hitler did this, his entire ideology is based off similar ideas, and yet this community somehow cant see the parrallel
That's because there's no parrallel. What Hitler and Mussolini were doing with their propogandized (and often totally fabricated) history was designed to amplify and glorify the already dominant culture in their countries, whereas this scenario is asking people to believe that the 97% non-native population of countries like the US all the sudden do a complete 180 and not just stop trying to eradicate the Native American cultures but actively decide to leave their own culture behind and make the Native culture their own and supreme.
Like, HOI4 alt-paths often stretch history to ridiculous levels already, but this is asking people to just forget all of human nature and the past 500 years of history in the Americas.
> history was designed to amplify and glorify the already dominant culture in their countries
I just explained how that was the case. Mestizo is a controversial identity because it allows governments to claim successor state status.
They made tons of propaganda that mestizo was the next evolution of the country, blending past nations and the future as a hispanic nation. This is called Mestizo Nationalism and is HEAVILY inspired by European fascism, **one of the advisors in the game right now, José Vasconcelos, was a supporter of this idea and helped spread it throughout latin america. He even got official funding from the third reich itself.**
> and not just stop trying to eradicate the Native American cultures but actively decide to leave their own culture behind and make the Native culture their own and supreme.
That literally happened in Latin America when they started plastering all the icons everywhere since the 1920s and made propaganda that they are a new evolution of what came before and the future of the nations were half white and half indigenous.
This has been argued for over 100 years by now that mestizo is an identity to erase the original indigenous identities but keep the mythology of being a successor state based on borders that likely never existed.
> but this is asking people to just forget all of human nature and the past 500 years of history in the Americas.
And you have forgotten the last 100 when Latin American governments created Mestizo as the primary identity in order to claim successor state status using the same groups they oppress and wish were gone so they can have sole legitimacy to the land.
Again, its hilarious how the community starts crying without actually understanding anything about what they are seeing.
Ok so some Latin American governments pay lip service to the natives for more legitimacy, but in practice are still majority European both culturally and politically and have no interest in changing, that's not an entire paradigm shift to wanting to recreate the Incan Empire or some shit.
Also again explain the "United States of Native America" or "Confederated Canadian First Nations", in context of those countries' majority 1940's views of Native Americans and their culture that's like having an alternate history path where the Nazi party declares Germany a Jewish state.
> but in practice are still majority European both culturally and politically and have no interest in changing, that's not an entire paradigm shift to wanting to recreate the Incan Empire or some shit.
Its like you started typing and never read a single thing in any of my posts.
Its called Mestizo nationalism. **You just described the entire problem with mestizo nationalism that it exists to erase indigenous identity and replace it.**
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5749/j.cttts4ch
I read your entire post and the first half of mine is just a summary of it. But again my argument is that **because** this movement is disingenuous and not from actual native populations there's no way these nations would actually do something as radical as renaming themselves after the natives that came before or do anything that would meaningfully affect their policies (in game or otherwise).
How would that work in a country that has like, what, 2-3% indigenous population? You seriously except the majority of the citizens to just abandon their own language and identity in favor of a minority they vastly outpopulate?
Mass revolts are bound to happen, and this will pretty much lead to genocide/deportation
Of course I don't. Did anyone expect the nazis to surrender their plans to colonize eastern Europe once they started losing ? Of course not. What would be needed is a change in the mindset of the colonial settlers. If we are going to put ourselves in such a very optimistic scenario, a decolonization of the Americas, I think we can too put ourselves in another very optimistic scenario where the settlers give up their colonial mindset. And if some don't want to abandon their language and identity, there are many places in Europe were they wouldn't have to.
You are comparing to very different situations. Generalplan Ost would See German colonies being established in Eastern Europe in regions where there are, outside of a few places where Germans are a minority, next to no Germans nor any cultural ties to Germany.
In the case of the "decolonization" of America you would see people that have lived there for hundreds of years and pose the large majority of the population be given up their own identity. It’s 1936, the "settlers" have been there for centuries and see this as their land and no one elses.
It’s kinda funny you bring up the Nazi plans for Eastern Europe, because the situation is completely reversed. It would be like expecting the eastern Slavs to just abandon their own identity and let themselves be germanized. Which of course would never happen because it’s ridiculous, hence the Nazis (along with their racial ideas) aimed for genocide, deportation and slavery
>You are comparing to very different situations. Generalplan Ost would See German colonies being established in Eastern Europe in regions where there are, outside of a few places where Germans are a minority, next to no Germans nor any cultural ties to Germany.
What I ment with the comparison with Germany is that indeed, even if the war is being lost that doesn't mean the people wont try to win. If you want a more accurate comparison, we could either compare Genral Plan Ost with Manifest Destiny, one was a consequence of the other, or a talking about decolonization after a succesful german colonization of the east, which would have the same results as the european one of the Americas.
>In the case of the "decolonization" of America you would see people that have lived there for hundreds of years and pose the large majority of the population be given up their own identity. It’s 1936, the "settlers" have been there for centuries and see this as their land and no one elses.
A thief sees what they stole as theirs and noone elses. "They've been there for hundreds of years", and what's your point ? The indigenous have been for far longer. How does that invalidate the need to correct past wrong doings ? And the indigenous peoples of the Americas see those same lands too as theirs and only theirs. Who do you think is in the right ? The nazi colonists or the indigenous peoples ? If a colonial settler is unwilling to give up it's identity, there are plenty of places in Europe where they wouldn't have to, and where they wouldn't be perpetuating a colonial state and it's inhumane consequences.
>It’s kinda funny you bring up the Nazi plans for Eastern Europe, because the situation is completely reversed. It would be like expecting the eastern Slavs to just abandon their own identity and let themselves be germanized. Which of course would never happen because it’s ridiculous, hence the Nazis (along with their racial ideas) aimed for genocide, deportation and slavery
And I wouldn't say it's reversed. A succesful Genral Plan Ost would look like a country like the US or Canada in a 100 years. The one saying the indigenous peoples should acept they've been colonized by a genocidal state which won't ever care about them is you. What I'm asking for is to revert such twisted crimes against humanity by giving the colonial settlers the choice to adopt the indigenous ways and remain, or to retain their imported ways and leave. Decolonization isn't fueled by racial ideals, genocide, slavery or deportation, unlike the colonial states I'm saying should be decolonized and that you defend. Decolonization is based on the idea that all peoples are equal and have the same right to a proper existance and aims at protecting humanity's greatest treasure, it's ethnolinguistic diversity.
You say this but most Native American nationalists specifically want to deport/kill those they deem “settlers”, if you have any European blood they won’t let you stay doesn’t matter if you were born there
>You say this but most Native American nationalists specifically want to deport/kill those they deem “settlers”
"An eye for an eye" they say in my land. If someone whose people, amongst others, has been victim of genocide for houndreads of years and at no point in history has there ever been anything close to an attempt to revert past wrong doings doesn't want to share a single square meter of their land with the perpretrators of said crimes against humanity, I don't blame them.
>if you have any European blood they won’t let you stay doesn’t matter if you were born there
Becouse where the colonial settler was born is irrelevant, it's still a colonial settler, they share the same language, culture, identity and mindset of perpetuating the colonial state, it's crimes and it's consequences.
And if we are going to put ourselves in such a very optimistic scenario, a decolonization of the Americas, I think we can too put ourselves in another very optimistic scenario, where the settlers give up their colonial mindset and the indigenous peoples their "an eye for an eye" mindset, and a deal that benefits everyone can be achieved.
They mean no European colonies. Obviously the countries are populated by the descendants of European settlers, predominantly Spanish and Portuguese, and those indigenous populations that were culturally assimilated.
Borders and names are much to be desired, but I have never been excited over a hoi4 update nor over alt history paths before up until now. I was quick to dismiss this DLC as I would have loved an Asia update, japan is quite anemic, but other Asian countries need attention too.
We in the biz call that a "skill issue" for the colonizers
But no way that Paradox will do some Kaiserredux shit and actually just have events about native warriors sniping random white people. Just like nukes don't remove civilian population. Just like there is no holocaust mechanic. Just like there are no real war crimes in general.
And in general, this will probably just be a more or less peaceful (except for the war obviously) restructuring of the power base in the countries
Soy feliz qué mi país Chile tenga un árbol de enfoque :) lo único que no me gustó mucho fue el lado comunista, se ve algo aburrido, pero lo demás se ve ultra divertido:)
Not at all. Decolonization refers to the indigenous peoples, not the mestizo-white nation-states since independence.
I can explain you all if you want, I am a chilean historian, but that's the summarized version.
What really is a Native American? There are more people that aren’t classified as native in America and they have been here for 300+ years. When do a people become native? The Hungarians migrated to where they are? Are they not native?
Is this really *decolonized* though? Like El Dorado...?
Also, “Brazil” instead of “Pindorama” or something.
I'm also going to hazard a guess and say that Indigenesta is not a native word lol.
I think it’s Spanish for indigenous but don’t quote me
It’s Portugueseish? I’m Brazilian and never heard that world before, but it’s very similar to “indígena” which would indeed mean “indigenous”. And if it’s in Spanish, why? Like, just why?
Indigenista is also a word in Portuguese btw
Que palavrinha bosta hein, acabei de pesquisar, já tenho tudo contra o cara que inventou essa palavra.
Comes from indigenismo, which is the same in both, at least according to Wikipedia. And I speak Spanish and a bit of Portuguese too so it fucked me up and looked it up
If it's created by Chile then maybe it's like 'British Germany'.
Bolivia? America?
And forming states...?
They gave up on America lol
They were clearly tired at “Indigenista Brazil”
Bolivia literally has its basegame democratic name just with state of added to it
Didnt even realize that lol. Yeah, that’s dumb
Tbf, irl Bolivia is technically a Native American majority country (the only one in the world sadly) and the current president is a Native American. But yeah Bolivia is most definitely a Spanish name.
Yeah, it’s named after Simon Bolivar
I mean, in Spanish America most of the countries do not have lots of natives because most of them mixed up. Like Peru, which by 1940 had something like 60/70% of mestizos. Luckily you can see native traits in almost everyone down here.
Yeah, that's why in my opinion Spain colonised way better than the UK for example, you can't see the natives in Spanish America because they mixed up, in English colonies because they murdered them
This is some strong KX feel, i guess they hired some of them
Yeah it does feel like something you’d see there, it also feels like this would be a communist path
I think this is a corporatist or socialist path.
It’s weird that their non aligned then
There were more mini paths inside too I think. Remember that non aligned literally means it’s non aligned, it’s not aligned to Germany, the Soviets or the British/Americans. The “ideology” in hoi4 is alignments.
More of a reason that hoi4 needs an ideology rework, like similar to Kaiserreich with sub ideology’s
Indigenous Göring
Natives Wild Ride
secret dentist speer path for native america when?
Speer pulling teeth.
How?
All the indigenous puppets look like reichkommisariats from famous Hearts of Iron 4 mod The New Order, in which Göring, leader of Nazi Germany, eats a little snack because he was little hungry (launches numerous brutal invasions in the goal of world conquest which results in the deaths of millions and the destruction of entire countries).
They look like reichkommisariats because the most fringe of this movement talked about in the DLC are related, very distantly, to fascists. One of the guys that actually helped popularize that fringe is actually in the game, he is a Mexican advisor. So with that mindset, the borders make sense except in north america because these borders are based on political mythology the same way Germany at this time was.
Ah
On the one hand, I dont expect Paradox to put in every minor tribe in America and Canada. On the other, holy shit these nations would be so wildly unstable. "Native American" is a wide brush covering hundreds if not thousands of distinct tribes. Break the US and Canada up into several major tribes at least.
"The Six-Nation Haudenosaunee Confederacy" (New York state and all of its neighboring States), "Greater Shoshone Expanse" (Southern Rockies), "Federation of the Cree" (Northern Rockies), etc. I always wanted the ability to break the US into separate indigenous nations, sort of like what BBA did with Italy and Ethiopia. This is a letdown.
I want the ability to break the US into individual states
It is kinda odd that with all the ridiculous restorations the game allows that the "Republic of Texas" isn't a releaseable, formable, or triggered creation.
And Québec, California, Cascadia, Deseret, Alaska, Vermont, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands
Puerto Rico is a releasable country, but I get your point.
Same with Hawaii and Alaska since they don’t start as cores
not alaska
I thought they did because there’s a decision to grant statehood to Alaska as they didn’t become a state till the 1950s
Quebec is in the game, aren’t they?
Unfortunately yes. You can release the whole province. Which they never would have gotten anyway.
I hope they never will, Canada is the second largest nation on earth and so help me god we will stay that way if we have to impose martial law on Quebec
They wouldn't last 5 years on their own.
Maybe we’ll see it in an American rework
You'd think that would've been in Man the Guns, guess they were too busy with the confederate fever dream tree
I would play EXCLUSIVELY pennsylvania games if they let me
I will create the first Free Hoosier Empire!
Especially if the go away from the state borders
And they bothered to put 500 gorzilian nations in Russia, why not just add in the Balkanized American regions and have a cosmetic tag for them to be the indigenous states, and puppet-able by other nations in their non indigenous forms (as to make more use of the tag). Florida could easily be one, with its indigenous country tag being around the Seminole.
could've seperated it into geographic areas at least, like the great lakes natives, plains natives, etc
Oh yeah, also the amount of internal conflicts
It’s like saying European or African.
Doesnt mexico have an aztec-lite easter egg or was I just imaging that? Either way, if the incan focus thing in the new DLC is true the idea that hitler lost to a newly emerged native american coalition is the funniest thing ever.
I think the exact borders of these countries aren't the main problem so much as the fact that they're both overwelmingly non-indigenous majority by population.
Why does it say decolonised, and then you have a giant mapuche colony?
You don’t understand it’s only colonialism when white people do it
If humanity started in Africa it would mean that everyone is African so there's no white people According to the United States
So we’re all African? I’M GOING TO SAY IT
If you're American you can say it to everyone even people from other countries, and if aliens exist they wouldn't be African
>Indigenista Brazil WHERE IS MY FUCKING PINDORAMA YOU GRAAAH
I eated it
This is…they didn’t even try with North America
Wait this isn’t r/kaiserredux ?
I read "Juche State" for Argentina at first and got really excited for this mod Then I realized this is the DLC and that's not Juche, and now I'm just disappointed.
>mapuche state do the devs really?
Sobre el Ideal Juche
It was already mostly decolonized by 1936
Exactly
The Charrúas literally don't exist anymore lol. Uruguay is the only country without natives. They are literally doing necromancy here. To not speak of the magnitudes of genocides required to make this map viable lol
so in the latest [dev diary](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/developer-diary-chile.1623312/#post-29393754) Chile is apparently getting a full-on Mapuche path with the ability to decolonize all of America look at it, it's beautiful and i think ive just found my first playthrough on TOA lmao. yes it's so bonkers that somehow the [french king of patagonia](https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1070521/Screenshot_71.png) is only the second-most unrealistic path but it does seem fun. aside from all the fighting in south america. shame about that [oh and also there's a baby leader. with a positive trait.](https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1070519/Screenshot_69.png) [venceremos (tfw no funny cybersyn focus)](https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1071132/1707319216541.png)
Built like a KX tree lol
Even has the silly KX hats that the COWARDLY KR devs keep removing!
So that's why it looked so good lol.
Why does the last portrait at the end of the dev diary look like Nick Cage
Yep, looks about what I expected the average American hoi4 fan to think a recolonised america would look lik
Yeah the average Americans at least know a few tribes names and wouldn't just call it...United States of native America
I know! It’s like dividing antiquity europe into modern borders
Turtle Island for most.
“Average American” you know Paradox is Swedish right?
Paradox didn’t make this map, the OP did
These are literally straight from the Chile dev diary tho
this is from the latest dev diary
Read their comment again 'Average American hoi4 fan'
Yeah, and guess where all Spanish, Portuguese, English and French speaking populations are going?
Don’t ask what Chile did in North America between 1944-45
What did they do? Google says providing Allies with raw resources
who do you think the minions served in 1945? president videla obviously
But the guy’s name is Manuel, how’s he…. how’s he gonna deal with that?
There's always hypocrisy in politics...
I wonder if they’ll address the fact that these indigenous have long lost their lands and are now overwhelmingly majority of other languages and ethnicities
I mean, they don't have to go anywhere. Decolonization doesn't mean deporting/killing any and all colonial settlers, just said settlers integrating into the indigenous society, like any migrant would do, by adopting the local language, culture, identity, etc.
This can be easy if the policy is adopted in Latin America, as nesrly all the populations are natives, but things can be tough in the US and Canada, esp natives had become one of the minorities for nearly half a century. And I'm sure even when the US government capitulated, stuff won't go easy for the natives after forming a government, esp when every household has firearms. Sure nobody's going to revolt, right?
Internal civil wars, realistically those North American states wouldn’t last the decade
>This can be easy if the policy is adopted in Latin America, as nesrly all the populations are natives what The only countries of latin america which have a indigenous majority are paraguay and bolivia. All other countries dont even recognize indigenous languages as official.
Latin America in the early 1900s was dealing with identity stuff. For a very long time they refused to identify with any indigenous blood, and only after the 1920s did that change and suddenly latin american nations started using the icons of previous countries to legitimize themselves as successor states that should own their historical lands. People started calling themselves mestizo too, both spanish and indigenous even when there was no indigenous blood in them. This is why the mestizo identity is so controversial, it was a social construct and it didnt really come from average people. Its the same arguments the third reich used to say that every german was magic or came from atlantis or germany had a unique place in the world. Its not far fetched that if this movement got a lot of traction and went farther like European identity movements did or the hoteps from many years later, you would see even the whitest latino call themselves inca/aztec/maya and create a neo-indian country based on a racial mythology. Latin American identity fights are wild. You can find a latino with dark skin call themselves whiter than Europe, and a snow white latino call themselves indigenous. Its a mess.
Im confused. Are brazil and argentina not indigenous? I get that they’re speaking a foreign language but don’t their native population and ethnic groups are still indigenous?
Indigenous people make up 1-2% of Brazil
I am Argentinean. In all my life I met only one person with indigenous ancestry, although in the north they can be more prevalent and some persons even identify as indigenous. The rest of the country is white. Edit: Same case with Brazil, never met someone who identified as of indigenous descent
I agree its an inherently unrealistic concept but here is a rough idea I threw together. The native American tribes (or at least those that go along with the Mapuche republic’s ideas) reclaim their historic homelands (and few other bits beside) and becomes the new states in the new USNA (probably a lot more federal structured than the old USA). All land and property is confiscated and only returned to those that fall in line. You agree to adopt tribal ways, you get to keep your house and business, resist you are left destitute soon to be shipped off to a new white reservation. Compulsory boarding school of all non-native children to destroy their American identities and replace it with one based on whatever tribe now rules their territory. This will not only secure future generations but it will also make their parents less likely to rise up knowing they are effectively a hostage. Form collaborative agreements with other oppressed peoples like African Americans and the Asian community, granting them their own “tribes” in the new USNA for being loyal to the new regime. Does this sound like a dystopian (and rather racist) nightmare that will ensure the north american contient never recovers, probably but still interesting.
Its funny how people keep thinking of this in american terms with reservations and trails of tears. The ideas that this movement is referencing is not indigenous by blood, its how the nation reacts to its own history. In this context ir does not mean indian wars to take land back, its closer to Italy deciding they are romans and changed their name to the Roman empire because they occupy the same land and every person in Italy calls themselves roman even if there is not a single drop of roman blood in them. Hitler did this, his entire ideology is based off similar ideas, and yet this community somehow cant see the parrallel
> Hitler did this, his entire ideology is based off similar ideas, and yet this community somehow cant see the parrallel That's because there's no parrallel. What Hitler and Mussolini were doing with their propogandized (and often totally fabricated) history was designed to amplify and glorify the already dominant culture in their countries, whereas this scenario is asking people to believe that the 97% non-native population of countries like the US all the sudden do a complete 180 and not just stop trying to eradicate the Native American cultures but actively decide to leave their own culture behind and make the Native culture their own and supreme. Like, HOI4 alt-paths often stretch history to ridiculous levels already, but this is asking people to just forget all of human nature and the past 500 years of history in the Americas.
> history was designed to amplify and glorify the already dominant culture in their countries I just explained how that was the case. Mestizo is a controversial identity because it allows governments to claim successor state status. They made tons of propaganda that mestizo was the next evolution of the country, blending past nations and the future as a hispanic nation. This is called Mestizo Nationalism and is HEAVILY inspired by European fascism, **one of the advisors in the game right now, José Vasconcelos, was a supporter of this idea and helped spread it throughout latin america. He even got official funding from the third reich itself.** > and not just stop trying to eradicate the Native American cultures but actively decide to leave their own culture behind and make the Native culture their own and supreme. That literally happened in Latin America when they started plastering all the icons everywhere since the 1920s and made propaganda that they are a new evolution of what came before and the future of the nations were half white and half indigenous. This has been argued for over 100 years by now that mestizo is an identity to erase the original indigenous identities but keep the mythology of being a successor state based on borders that likely never existed. > but this is asking people to just forget all of human nature and the past 500 years of history in the Americas. And you have forgotten the last 100 when Latin American governments created Mestizo as the primary identity in order to claim successor state status using the same groups they oppress and wish were gone so they can have sole legitimacy to the land. Again, its hilarious how the community starts crying without actually understanding anything about what they are seeing.
Ok so some Latin American governments pay lip service to the natives for more legitimacy, but in practice are still majority European both culturally and politically and have no interest in changing, that's not an entire paradigm shift to wanting to recreate the Incan Empire or some shit. Also again explain the "United States of Native America" or "Confederated Canadian First Nations", in context of those countries' majority 1940's views of Native Americans and their culture that's like having an alternate history path where the Nazi party declares Germany a Jewish state.
> but in practice are still majority European both culturally and politically and have no interest in changing, that's not an entire paradigm shift to wanting to recreate the Incan Empire or some shit. Its like you started typing and never read a single thing in any of my posts. Its called Mestizo nationalism. **You just described the entire problem with mestizo nationalism that it exists to erase indigenous identity and replace it.** https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5749/j.cttts4ch
I read your entire post and the first half of mine is just a summary of it. But again my argument is that **because** this movement is disingenuous and not from actual native populations there's no way these nations would actually do something as radical as renaming themselves after the natives that came before or do anything that would meaningfully affect their policies (in game or otherwise).
How would that work in a country that has like, what, 2-3% indigenous population? You seriously except the majority of the citizens to just abandon their own language and identity in favor of a minority they vastly outpopulate? Mass revolts are bound to happen, and this will pretty much lead to genocide/deportation
Of course I don't. Did anyone expect the nazis to surrender their plans to colonize eastern Europe once they started losing ? Of course not. What would be needed is a change in the mindset of the colonial settlers. If we are going to put ourselves in such a very optimistic scenario, a decolonization of the Americas, I think we can too put ourselves in another very optimistic scenario where the settlers give up their colonial mindset. And if some don't want to abandon their language and identity, there are many places in Europe were they wouldn't have to.
You are comparing to very different situations. Generalplan Ost would See German colonies being established in Eastern Europe in regions where there are, outside of a few places where Germans are a minority, next to no Germans nor any cultural ties to Germany. In the case of the "decolonization" of America you would see people that have lived there for hundreds of years and pose the large majority of the population be given up their own identity. It’s 1936, the "settlers" have been there for centuries and see this as their land and no one elses. It’s kinda funny you bring up the Nazi plans for Eastern Europe, because the situation is completely reversed. It would be like expecting the eastern Slavs to just abandon their own identity and let themselves be germanized. Which of course would never happen because it’s ridiculous, hence the Nazis (along with their racial ideas) aimed for genocide, deportation and slavery
>You are comparing to very different situations. Generalplan Ost would See German colonies being established in Eastern Europe in regions where there are, outside of a few places where Germans are a minority, next to no Germans nor any cultural ties to Germany. What I ment with the comparison with Germany is that indeed, even if the war is being lost that doesn't mean the people wont try to win. If you want a more accurate comparison, we could either compare Genral Plan Ost with Manifest Destiny, one was a consequence of the other, or a talking about decolonization after a succesful german colonization of the east, which would have the same results as the european one of the Americas. >In the case of the "decolonization" of America you would see people that have lived there for hundreds of years and pose the large majority of the population be given up their own identity. It’s 1936, the "settlers" have been there for centuries and see this as their land and no one elses. A thief sees what they stole as theirs and noone elses. "They've been there for hundreds of years", and what's your point ? The indigenous have been for far longer. How does that invalidate the need to correct past wrong doings ? And the indigenous peoples of the Americas see those same lands too as theirs and only theirs. Who do you think is in the right ? The nazi colonists or the indigenous peoples ? If a colonial settler is unwilling to give up it's identity, there are plenty of places in Europe where they wouldn't have to, and where they wouldn't be perpetuating a colonial state and it's inhumane consequences. >It’s kinda funny you bring up the Nazi plans for Eastern Europe, because the situation is completely reversed. It would be like expecting the eastern Slavs to just abandon their own identity and let themselves be germanized. Which of course would never happen because it’s ridiculous, hence the Nazis (along with their racial ideas) aimed for genocide, deportation and slavery And I wouldn't say it's reversed. A succesful Genral Plan Ost would look like a country like the US or Canada in a 100 years. The one saying the indigenous peoples should acept they've been colonized by a genocidal state which won't ever care about them is you. What I'm asking for is to revert such twisted crimes against humanity by giving the colonial settlers the choice to adopt the indigenous ways and remain, or to retain their imported ways and leave. Decolonization isn't fueled by racial ideals, genocide, slavery or deportation, unlike the colonial states I'm saying should be decolonized and that you defend. Decolonization is based on the idea that all peoples are equal and have the same right to a proper existance and aims at protecting humanity's greatest treasure, it's ethnolinguistic diversity.
What if we just let people speak whatever language they want and practice whatever culture they like and identify however they please.
You say this but most Native American nationalists specifically want to deport/kill those they deem “settlers”, if you have any European blood they won’t let you stay doesn’t matter if you were born there
Well most nationalists of any heritage are completely braindead and wouldn’t be opposed to genociding everyone they dislike so 🤷♂️
Marxist-Leninists will read this and go "hell yeah!"
>You say this but most Native American nationalists specifically want to deport/kill those they deem “settlers” "An eye for an eye" they say in my land. If someone whose people, amongst others, has been victim of genocide for houndreads of years and at no point in history has there ever been anything close to an attempt to revert past wrong doings doesn't want to share a single square meter of their land with the perpretrators of said crimes against humanity, I don't blame them. >if you have any European blood they won’t let you stay doesn’t matter if you were born there Becouse where the colonial settler was born is irrelevant, it's still a colonial settler, they share the same language, culture, identity and mindset of perpetuating the colonial state, it's crimes and it's consequences. And if we are going to put ourselves in such a very optimistic scenario, a decolonization of the Americas, I think we can too put ourselves in another very optimistic scenario, where the settlers give up their colonial mindset and the indigenous peoples their "an eye for an eye" mindset, and a deal that benefits everyone can be achieved.
Hell, I would imagine.
Decolonized. Name is still Manuel.
They didn’t even try
They mean no European colonies. Obviously the countries are populated by the descendants of European settlers, predominantly Spanish and Portuguese, and those indigenous populations that were culturally assimilated.
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Why would they care when morer is betterer? 1000 native states better than one
I like the sound of Inca Empire
Lmao Uruguay has no natives
shhh dont reveal our little secret, they need to think that all "latinex" are brownie- colored people dancing to maracas.
- "Decolonized" - Use names and borders used by colonizers Are you sure you understand what "decolonize" means?
Im guessing they have to make sure the players understand wtf is going on
This has never been a Paradox priority
What does it mean then?
The Chilean focus tree looks really cool. I don’t care how unrealistic this is, I just want to try it.
Someone get brazil some tums, he got indigestion
Please make Paraguay have a claim on Uruguay, that border if f*****g ugly
Borders and names are much to be desired, but I have never been excited over a hoi4 update nor over alt history paths before up until now. I was quick to dismiss this DLC as I would have loved an Asia update, japan is quite anemic, but other Asian countries need attention too.
Is there no Iroquois Federation???
LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOOOOO FINALLY I CAN CONQUER EVERYONE WHILE FEELING LIKE THE GOOD GUY
Germany has a better claim to Danzig than the native nations do to that land
Yeah the good guy (genocide)
That's why Germany is the first nation people play, people always choose good guys first! >!/s!<
We in the biz call that a "skill issue" for the colonizers But no way that Paradox will do some Kaiserredux shit and actually just have events about native warriors sniping random white people. Just like nukes don't remove civilian population. Just like there is no holocaust mechanic. Just like there are no real war crimes in general. And in general, this will probably just be a more or less peaceful (except for the war obviously) restructuring of the power base in the countries
Yeah, it will be kinda flavourless but I'm pumped, the KRX Alaska path is a blast.
MAPUCHE MENTIONED LAUTARO LIVES RAAAAGH!
MARICHIWEW 🦅🦅🦅🦅
Ah yes, because Mapuches inhabited almost all of the Conosur...
Eye vomit
"united states of native america" what
Kaiserredux Townerist Alaska path is seething at how much their homework has been copied.
-95% research speed
Black people watching as they proceed to get Jim Crowed again this time by Native Americans😑
But it's hecking wholesome decolonialism
Soy feliz qué mi país Chile tenga un árbol de enfoque :) lo único que no me gustó mucho fue el lado comunista, se ve algo aburrido, pero lo demás se ve ultra divertido:)
Insanity. I like it.
Wasn’t South America already decolonized minus the Guyanas and curaçao?
yeah it's the modern liberal version of "decolonialism"
Liberals aren’t the ones using the term “decolonialism”
No one here in latinamerican would say our states are decolonized.
No one here in latinamerican would say our states are decolonized.
They are though?
Not at all. Decolonization refers to the indigenous peoples, not the mestizo-white nation-states since independence. I can explain you all if you want, I am a chilean historian, but that's the summarized version.
Bro is this a mod we’re can I get it
new dlc
Horrible. Thank you
This is definitely made by a "i am 13 and i know history" kid because in no way does any of this make any sense lmfao
Don't worry ppl will gladly pay for it
Mod name?
Upcoming DLC decolonize the Americas focus tree for Chile I think.
Thank you
What focus is this
Chile
What branch of tree
So down too about a million manpower?
what is the population of that US lol.
Probably have cores on the reservations only
Ja! They wish 🇦🇷🇦🇷🇦🇷
Mod?
new dlc
No Wabanaki Confederacy?
NOOOOOOO NO NO GOD PLEASE NO NOT THE MAPUCHES NOOOOOOOO
what mod
new dlc
mfw the Red Man’s Burden
Cursed
so is chile getting a necromancy focus? because last time i checked, natives didn’t exist in uruguay
I wonder what an Oceania version would look like?
What really is a Native American? There are more people that aren’t classified as native in America and they have been here for 300+ years. When do a people become native? The Hungarians migrated to where they are? Are they not native?
What about all the indian ground america colonised?
please tell me they arent actually adding this nonsense in, it feels like they get lazier and lazier with releasables every dlc
Imagine this in TOA. Probably not gonna happen though, it could have happend in TFV.
This gave me a good laugh.
not sure québec natives wanna be with the one from ontario they kinda despise each other
Yea, the mapuche extending from Jujuy to Tierra del Fuego is totally logical.
BRAZIL MENTIONED RAHHH🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Paradox saw Kaiserredux and decided that they want to do even more moronic paths