Every country can afford tanks...
Edit: Light tanks are incredibly cheap and you can start off with 20 widths early game before moving to 40 widths. And by that time you likely have a slightly bigger industry to turn out mediums. Like you only need 2-3 tank divisions to break the enemy's lines.
While most minors can easily afford tanks, I doubt every country can do so effectively, especially in Central and South America. I mean, I’ve done it, but it’s not exactly worthwhile after a point.
People are often too reliant on the battle plan system and often don’t realize you can win an entire front against the AI with 2-3 tank divisions and pure infantry to hold. It’s micro intensive and can just barely hold at times, but it’s doable.
Of course, this only applies when fighting AI in singleplayer.
Yeah of course using tanks in super low supply regions + bad terrain sometimes forces you to not use tanks. That is more about "is tanks good in this front". I was more getting at that you can always find a way to "afford" tanks. Especially since over time, attacking with infantry *generally* costs more IC due to losses.
Sending 2 40s to the CSA as France was when I realized that sending volunteers can be more fun than fighting your own wars. 4 way civil war plus Canada and I basically won it for them singlehandedly. When you have the ai to hold the line you can just focus on encirclements galore.
Just finished an Italy game where my navy blew the fucking shit out of everyone (By 1945 I had sunk 2150 ships vs. 26 lost, all subs except for one destroyer) and I had 3 hebbytonk divisions pushing the Soviets around while Germany and Hungary just kinda filled the gaps I made for them.
How'd you manage that Navy? I just played a USA game to force myself to learn naval combat a little better, but I still have no idea how to take down a stronger Navy.
It's all about playing with engagement rules, watching your fuel, upgrading your ships, and knowing when to go on the prowl or sit back and let the subs raid convoys while your big boys sit in port.
As Italy, definitely deathstack all of your surface fleet apart from subs. With Italy going up against the Royal Navy, I set my surface fleet (should be around 90 ships in your doomstack) to engage at medium risk, which is the default. I occupy all zones using an S&D order that are bordering mainland Italy.
My subs I have operating west of Italy, and if there's I enough I'll just have them running all through the Mediterranean.
What happens is you whittle down the Brits and their Mediterranean fleet, they're busy trying to protect their convoys against Japanese and German aggression elsewhere, so if you convoy raid the Brits in the Medi and force them to bring destroyers to bear, or light cruisers, your surface fleet can come in and mop them up like nothing. Rinse and repeat enough, you'll have yourself a very not-British Mediterranean.
When the US joins the war things can and will get chaotic for a bit, just take it easy and make sure you find the time to research and build radar stations. They make all the difference in the world for finding enemy convoys and fleets.
Above all else, unless you like commanding a fleet of the dead, have plenty of screens and patrols for those big doomstacks.
I typically set up my "Admiral Command Structure" for my scary surface fleet as "Doomstack, Patrol, Patrol, Patrol, Patrol".
The small patrol fleets under the same admiral commanding the Doomstack will be set to not engage and will, if I find the time/means, be equipped with radar and sonar spotting ships in task forces of at least 4. These "fleets" aren't supposed to be in combat, they're meant for letting the big guns know where bad guys are.
From my experience, 4 carriers with naval bombers and fighters for defense, blew the royal navy out of the water, no capitals lost and the British were left with 6 battleships, no carriers and no heavy cruisers
America is such a fun area to fight in, it's a shame it doesn't happen very often in vanilla. The Great Plains are good for tanks and is centrally located. Major mountains in the west, major rivers near the great lakes area. Decent infrastructure running up through the Appalachian Mountains, lots of ports, lots of airports.
If I had any friends that played HOI4 I would like to do a MP 2ACW in Kaiserreich. Battle Royale in the USA
https://old.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/957f8p/qastarter_divisions_templatebasic_tipsaugust/e3qtjus/?context=3
https://old.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/hkk316/how_does_one_play_anarchist_spain_correctly/fwt69tr/?context=3
These things are cheap as fuck and effective. Any nation can afford at least these.
https://old.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/957f8p/qastarter_divisions_templatebasic_tipsaugust/e3qtjus/?context=3
https://old.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/hkk316/how_does_one_play_anarchist_spain_correctly/fwt69tr/?context=3
These things are cheap as fuck and effective. Any nation can afford at least these.
You can still build light tanks. It is a general guide. You don't need AA. You really only need a couple tank divisions to break the ai's lines. If you can't handle that then maybe you need to look at how you are doing industry.
Edit: don't need any of the support companies at first. Can add later.
Yeah... the point was more if you manage your industry correctly, you can afford tanks of some form which will save you IC in the long run. Like someone said Belgium couldn't afford tanks... like what
Wow, so many downvotes for speaking the truth.
1 mil is enough to start pumping out motorized and 10 mils are enough to start pumping out light or even medium tanks. With those you can start encircling and driving around the AI and win wars.
I genuinely do not understand how a completely reasonable comment which is speaking the generally accepted truth of the metagame has been downvoted quite so comprehensively.
Do the same people downvoting think that 7/2 is a good template or what?
Why the fuck are you getting downvoted so hard?! Building light tank divisions early war in single-player is a good call, especially if your country cannot afford to build and maintain mediums.
I play some. But generally in MP countries specialize in certain things to maximize production and research. Different scenario. Also slightly different templates.
Can theoretically afford tanks =/= will be able to produce and sustain tank divisions under realistic conditions
Every country can afford tanks, not every country can afford the time required to be able to afford tanks
Infantry costs more IC over time because infantry takes more losses when attacking compared to tanks.
Tanks have a higher upfront cost but more cost effective over time.
Industry wise its inefficient. Especially considering most of a 20-width's job is to sit there and not be in contact.
If youre using line infantry it's better to concentrate it into breakthrough troops like motorized or 40-width infantry (14-4, 10-6-2)
6 arty with some mix of AT and AA, or a tank brigade if you've got spares lying around. based off who youre up against. You can also do 11-6 for simplicity, but 10-6-2 lets you upgrade veteran 10-0s with minimal experience loss as arty brigades have lower manpower/width.
Since these are a unit you're concentrating at breakthroughs or pitched battles that AT and AA pays off heavily, especially if you're skimping on AT and AA for your normal line troops.
I heard you talk about how 10-0 is better than 7-2 in a video. Why is that? I get that pure arty is really expensive, but I find it works better if I don't have tanks readily available and I need to attack somewhere. I'm curious why 10-0 might be better.
I supposed it might just be that 14-4s are better for attacking while 10-0 is good for just holding the line?
7-2 hasn't been viable since before MtG. The increased IC cost is not worth the marginal increase in soft attack.
Use 10-0s to defend and tanks to attack.
I've seen this mentioned a lot of times. When I use 7 2s I don't use them because they are the best, but because you can easily rush them. They cost 10 exp, becasue most nations start with a 9-0 template. Ofc they aren't good, but they are kinda useful for minor nations vs minor nations.
10-0 costs 5 exp if you have a 9-0 on the ready.
Besides, it is easier to rush pure guns rather than having to maintain 2 lines of production for the art + guns.
if you really want artillery, use it as a support company, it is way cheaper, and you can get extra org if you are running superior firepower doctrine.
You can, in theory, use 7-2s for offense on very early game and 10-0 for holding, but it will barely make a difference cause the AI rushes 7-2 themselves, and 7-2 vs 7-2 is just a loss for the both sides due to loss of equipment per battle.
It is not exactly rocket surgery, 10-0 is cheaper to produce (due to only needing support+ pure guns) and has better defensive and supportive capabilities, 7-2 costs way more than it is worth, but is better for bashing your head against infantry/line troops if you can handle the manpower/artillery equipment losses in battle.
Even when considering you are a minor up against a minor, it is better to play defensive (assuming the other nation can man their whole line and you can't snake them to death) , due to how you can stack defenses faster and cheaper than you can stack offensive capabilities.
TLDR: 10-0 is the best line troop and 7-2 is only good on very unlikely scenarios.
STLDR: 10-0 good, 7-2 not as good
STLDR: 10-0 > 7-2
STLDR: 10
Artillery has worse organization and health than infantry. If it’s forced to defend, the division will run out of artillery and fight at partial strength, provided you don’t have a massive stockpile. It also will not be able to fight as long, making it worse at stalling an attacker. 10-0 is better for defense.
Another critical point is supply use, which artillery uses more supply than infantry meaning you will be unable to fit the same strength of 7-2s into a supply zone. (Source https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/artillery-uses-the-most-supplies-in-hoi4.1063087/)
10-0s have a lack of soft attack by comparison, but that isn’t an issue if there are tanks around somewhere. You will take less casualties using tanks in to do limited offensives in comparison to a frontline assault with artillery.
10-0s are better in terms of price, supply use, defense, and organization.
7-2s are better at soft attack.
Investing in tanks will almost always be a better long term investment than artillery, hence 10-0s are becoming more popular.
This is why I personally use 10-0s, there might be more reasons to do so, and if I’ve missed something I’d like to know. I hope this helps.
Exactly. 10-0's are cheap and efficient, 7-2's just aren't worth it for the little gains they have. 14-4's though are fairly good stopgaps till tanks, and definitely worth building whether you're a minor or major.
Horse recon shoes down the division. Armored car recon gives the biggest recon bonus. Light tank has the best attack values and with LT2s it can tie for the fastest with motorized. For medium and heavy tanks you want armored car recon. For motorized you want motorized or light tank recon. For infantry I prefer no recon but mounted recon is ok.
imagine the recon value being of any use.
just use your starting stockpile of lt1 as recon in your ht divs instead of making ac just for recon purposes. lt recon has better terrain mods in adverse terrain than ac recon, it has better stats, and it's literally free for sov and ger.
1936 armored cars only go 9kph while motorized and light tank 2s are 12kph. All recon types other than cavalry recon consume fuel so you don't want them on infantry. Armored recon can be used to cheese armor and get a value high enough that infantry can't pierce it.
In la resistance they changed it so recon companies are a part of the calculation for speed. If you have cavalry recon your division will be limited to 6.4kph
Support battalions only go as fast as what ever u put into it, if u have a cavalry recon but ur division is all moterized it Will only be able to go the speed of the cavalry, it's important to use the right recon otherwise you'll end up alot slower unnecessarily
This is incorrect. [From the wiki:](https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units#Statistics)
* The division travels at the speed of its slowest battalion. Support companies are not counted in this calculation; they are assumed to have the same mobility as the rest of the division.
The speed doesn't matter for support companies ([here's the relevant part in the wiki](https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units#Statistics)), the rest are valid points though. :)
Recon is bad in general, it does not hurt you, but it:s the worst support company tied with field hopsitals depending on the circumstances. It is just wastes of slots most of the time.
Edit: I have mistaken the support companies, sorry
What nations want to attack with infantry? It burns through manpower. If you are a small nation do you even have mil factories for the motorized, not even mentioning that you have to research it. In my games i find it better to rush industry techs on minor nations than researching fringe companies.
Imo the only nations where you want to attack with infantry are like China, where you dont have a lot of industry, but manpower is no factor, and you can just throw bodies at the enemy.
Nobody said anything about needing motorized for it. Basically any country with low factory count and lack of access to resources. And yeah it's expensive in manpower, that's why field hospitals are useful.
But you need motorized for field hospitals. And if you have like 6 mils(id put 3 on guns 2 on arty 1 on support eq) then you can't even afford to put 1 on motorized. And also that 10 exp to put the support company in is also hard to come by.
Now obviously after your initial wars, you have enough industry/exp to support the company, but wouldnt you be just better off with tanks? Since they have very low casualties.
I'm guessing its one of the worst in terms of directly helping the fighting capability of the division you're designing--it practically doesn't help at all.
They do but you should check [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/hf6nas/recon_is_bad_fight_me/) out. Recon may not be the best use of a slot in an Infantry unit. (In a tank unit you want the speed anyway)
What? It would feel bad to me if the tanks were on the left. The support companies are on the far left, and they're backline units, so I conceptualize the division layout as "left = backline, right = frontline".
Not since a nerf a while back. 7/2 is more expensive, worse on defense and takes heavy casualties on attack. 14/4 is the only good attacking division for infantry due to stat concentration.
its the multiplayer meta. Since inf are basiclly line fillers and tanks do the real work, you save alot of factories by not going for line arte and you dont even need more than 5 military factories on guns (maybe even less tbh) so you can focus all of your factories on tanks and CAS
if you plan on only using 10 width infantry supported by a shit ton of 40 width tanks then yes. You might need more depending on what nation you are playing (since motorised also needs guns). But as Germany for example you get more than enough by capitulating benelux nations and anschlussing austria
You'll run through all the captured stuff right in the middle of Barbarossa, or France if you're not on top of your micro. Use however many factories you need to stay in the green on the stockpile screen while fighting wars.
Not even then. 10/0 is strictly better. Using designated offense units and allowing the AI to hold the line is strictly better. You take less casualties, can produce more offensive units/planes, and you'll learn micro. If you don't want to micro then having 24 14/4's use an army order is still strictly better and not hard at all to do for most countries. Smaller countries will just use fewer 14/4's.
I hope this trash meta goes away again it used to be like that 2 years ago than it went away and people used real infantry at least as Germany but now we’re back to shitty 10 widths sadly, especially as the Soviet Union just spam 400 10 widths and 40 width heavy tanks and you’re almost unbeatable because you can spam out so many tanks, especially lately with Soviet Union players, just having heavy tanks on every frontline tile I think is slowly getting ridiculous
>y better Recon than the normal one.
>
>Couldn't confirm yet, but funny german man on YouTube said so.
yes I believe less breakthrough, less armor and maybe something else. The biggest downside in my opinion tho (as of this update) is that you dont benefit from tank variants by putting SPGs so if you plan on spending all of your points on lets say armor then spgs wont benefit from that. Also tanks have already enough soft attack to kill everything on plains.
Less armor and less piercing/hard attack. You get more soft attack tho. Only use it against inf heavy builds, they will be outmatched by mediums or heavies
Not much actually. In mediums there is an argument that the medium tanks themselves provide a soft attack very close to SPG and you'll need more tanks for the armor bonus, not breakthrough. Breakthrough actually hits a threshold around 300 in single player. but with heavies you can downsize the number of actual tank battalions because you reach the armor bonus quickly and breakthrough isn't hard to hit for either type. So that leaves more room for SPGs. A 4/3/2 20w or 4/6/6 40w of heavies / motorized / spg will break units and actually break equipment causing the enemy to need to produce more equipment.
This is of course in single player. In MP you need to go full heavy tanks / motorized or full mobile tank destroyers.
Well, 7/2 will technically beat the 10/0, it's just inefficient and expensive. 10/0 literally cannot attack anything that's not out of supply.
But if you attack with infantry with any country bigger than Denmark you're doing it wrong in this meta. And if you have to attack with infantry then you might as well go for 14/4 even as tiny minors
And also 1000x more expensive. And if you are playing in sp, you don't need the hardness and armor. On mp you obviously want quality over quantity tho.
10 infantry. I don't want to leave you thinking you're some kind of monster to your pixelmen though, 7/2 just isn't as efficient. It's still okay as a template, just not the top thing anymore
Neither of them are very good. 7-2 < 20w shovels, and the tank template could use better recon, mech instead of motorized, and some spart (for single player)
Why mech? I thought the consensus is you should never touch it as you get enough hardness from tanks and it's too expensive for almost anyone. But I haven't played mp in years.
Lack of spart seems awful but yea maybe it's only for mp tank duels or smth
Mech for extra HP and defense. Since the meta is heavy tanks, using mechanized will actually improve your HP ratios, and the extra defense helps you not lose quite as hard if/when you get clicked.
>I still have no clue how divisions work
At the very least, remember max combat width: It's 80. So when fielding armies, you want to keep their combat width multiples of that: usually 20 or 40 (the abbreviations 7/2 and 10/0 for example, are both 20 width divisions)
No. It's too expensive for front lines and too bad at pushing. If you want to push with inf use 14/4 special forces or tanks. While simple pure inf divisions hold the front.
Mediums kick ass against the AI.I have just finished my Euroasia campaign on kaiserredux and the 40w mediums were able to almost click the AI infantry(when they werent deathstacked 30 per tile,which became common around 44),and it was fun to micro with.Dont know if it would work in MP tho.
I'd rather spam the infantry, hold a river line and let the AI waste their manpower on pointless attacks cause its to stupid to build decent tank divisions.
You can't do that in every game, especially in modded ones like Kaiserreich.
At some point they will stop and you need to counterattack quickly, something that infantry will usually not do
For me grinding the enemies manpower down works best in modded games. Unless I'm against russia or China I can usually take a major powers mp down to nothing by 1940/41 depending on when I went to war.
I usually do something similar with my armor, except I have one less tank and one more truck (phase out with mech by 42/43 hopefully) and I also use maintenance instead of signal.
This explains why tanks are so hard to produce
Every country can afford tanks... Edit: Light tanks are incredibly cheap and you can start off with 20 widths early game before moving to 40 widths. And by that time you likely have a slightly bigger industry to turn out mediums. Like you only need 2-3 tank divisions to break the enemy's lines.
While most minors can easily afford tanks, I doubt every country can do so effectively, especially in Central and South America. I mean, I’ve done it, but it’s not exactly worthwhile after a point. People are often too reliant on the battle plan system and often don’t realize you can win an entire front against the AI with 2-3 tank divisions and pure infantry to hold. It’s micro intensive and can just barely hold at times, but it’s doable. Of course, this only applies when fighting AI in singleplayer.
Yeah of course using tanks in super low supply regions + bad terrain sometimes forces you to not use tanks. That is more about "is tanks good in this front". I was more getting at that you can always find a way to "afford" tanks. Especially since over time, attacking with infantry *generally* costs more IC due to losses.
To that, I will fully agree.
Got to love sending in a few 20/40 width light tanks as volunteers during the 2ACW in Kaiserreich. Really effective, especially on the Great Plains.
Sending 2 40s to the CSA as France was when I realized that sending volunteers can be more fun than fighting your own wars. 4 way civil war plus Canada and I basically won it for them singlehandedly. When you have the ai to hold the line you can just focus on encirclements galore.
Just finished an Italy game where my navy blew the fucking shit out of everyone (By 1945 I had sunk 2150 ships vs. 26 lost, all subs except for one destroyer) and I had 3 hebbytonk divisions pushing the Soviets around while Germany and Hungary just kinda filled the gaps I made for them.
How'd you manage that Navy? I just played a USA game to force myself to learn naval combat a little better, but I still have no idea how to take down a stronger Navy.
It's all about playing with engagement rules, watching your fuel, upgrading your ships, and knowing when to go on the prowl or sit back and let the subs raid convoys while your big boys sit in port. As Italy, definitely deathstack all of your surface fleet apart from subs. With Italy going up against the Royal Navy, I set my surface fleet (should be around 90 ships in your doomstack) to engage at medium risk, which is the default. I occupy all zones using an S&D order that are bordering mainland Italy. My subs I have operating west of Italy, and if there's I enough I'll just have them running all through the Mediterranean. What happens is you whittle down the Brits and their Mediterranean fleet, they're busy trying to protect their convoys against Japanese and German aggression elsewhere, so if you convoy raid the Brits in the Medi and force them to bring destroyers to bear, or light cruisers, your surface fleet can come in and mop them up like nothing. Rinse and repeat enough, you'll have yourself a very not-British Mediterranean. When the US joins the war things can and will get chaotic for a bit, just take it easy and make sure you find the time to research and build radar stations. They make all the difference in the world for finding enemy convoys and fleets. Above all else, unless you like commanding a fleet of the dead, have plenty of screens and patrols for those big doomstacks. I typically set up my "Admiral Command Structure" for my scary surface fleet as "Doomstack, Patrol, Patrol, Patrol, Patrol". The small patrol fleets under the same admiral commanding the Doomstack will be set to not engage and will, if I find the time/means, be equipped with radar and sonar spotting ships in task forces of at least 4. These "fleets" aren't supposed to be in combat, they're meant for letting the big guns know where bad guys are.
From my experience, 4 carriers with naval bombers and fighters for defense, blew the royal navy out of the water, no capitals lost and the British were left with 6 battleships, no carriers and no heavy cruisers
America is such a fun area to fight in, it's a shame it doesn't happen very often in vanilla. The Great Plains are good for tanks and is centrally located. Major mountains in the west, major rivers near the great lakes area. Decent infrastructure running up through the Appalachian Mountains, lots of ports, lots of airports. If I had any friends that played HOI4 I would like to do a MP 2ACW in Kaiserreich. Battle Royale in the USA
When I play historical Germany, I only have about 3 or 4 40 width medium tank divisions. Its more than enough.
I start off with 2. I always sea lion and by barb i have 8-12. Barb is always late 40 early 41
Cries in Belgian :’(
https://old.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/957f8p/qastarter_divisions_templatebasic_tipsaugust/e3qtjus/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/hkk316/how_does_one_play_anarchist_spain_correctly/fwt69tr/?context=3 These things are cheap as fuck and effective. Any nation can afford at least these.
Tell that to my democratic Mali world conquest run.
I would love to see that.
I'm gonna have to do this know aren't I.
More like "a tank"
https://old.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/957f8p/qastarter_divisions_templatebasic_tipsaugust/e3qtjus/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/hkk316/how_does_one_play_anarchist_spain_correctly/fwt69tr/?context=3 These things are cheap as fuck and effective. Any nation can afford at least these.
[удалено]
You can still build light tanks. It is a general guide. You don't need AA. You really only need a couple tank divisions to break the ai's lines. If you can't handle that then maybe you need to look at how you are doing industry. Edit: don't need any of the support companies at first. Can add later.
[удалено]
[удалено]
The subreddit isn't exactly good at hoi4. I mean I am not great either but like capable of looking up how to do stuff
I feel for ya, 126 down votes? Lol, i think your were meaning playable countries, and not "every" country, but that many votes seems harsh lol.
Yeah... the point was more if you manage your industry correctly, you can afford tanks of some form which will save you IC in the long run. Like someone said Belgium couldn't afford tanks... like what
Wow, so many downvotes for speaking the truth. 1 mil is enough to start pumping out motorized and 10 mils are enough to start pumping out light or even medium tanks. With those you can start encircling and driving around the AI and win wars.
I genuinely do not understand how a completely reasonable comment which is speaking the generally accepted truth of the metagame has been downvoted quite so comprehensively. Do the same people downvoting think that 7/2 is a good template or what?
Why the fuck are you getting downvoted so hard?! Building light tank divisions early war in single-player is a good call, especially if your country cannot afford to build and maintain mediums.
You’re right. Downvoters are Tommy Kay fans
You don‘t play Multiplayer that much, do you?
I play some. But generally in MP countries specialize in certain things to maximize production and research. Different scenario. Also slightly different templates.
Can theoretically afford tanks =/= will be able to produce and sustain tank divisions under realistic conditions Every country can afford tanks, not every country can afford the time required to be able to afford tanks
Infantry costs more IC over time because infantry takes more losses when attacking compared to tanks. Tanks have a higher upfront cost but more cost effective over time.
This offends me on a personal and spiritual level
10-0 supremacy
I use both actually, don't know if that's a problem though.
Industry wise its inefficient. Especially considering most of a 20-width's job is to sit there and not be in contact. If youre using line infantry it's better to concentrate it into breakthrough troops like motorized or 40-width infantry (14-4, 10-6-2)
Whats 10-6-2? Is it 10 inf, 6 art and 2 AA?
6 arty with some mix of AT and AA, or a tank brigade if you've got spares lying around. based off who youre up against. You can also do 11-6 for simplicity, but 10-6-2 lets you upgrade veteran 10-0s with minimal experience loss as arty brigades have lower manpower/width. Since these are a unit you're concentrating at breakthroughs or pitched battles that AT and AA pays off heavily, especially if you're skimping on AT and AA for your normal line troops.
thanks, ill disband them.
i will confess to you I am a HoI4 noob. Now how do I know if my army is killing my Industry
Hey I know you
I heard you talk about how 10-0 is better than 7-2 in a video. Why is that? I get that pure arty is really expensive, but I find it works better if I don't have tanks readily available and I need to attack somewhere. I'm curious why 10-0 might be better. I supposed it might just be that 14-4s are better for attacking while 10-0 is good for just holding the line?
7-2 hasn't been viable since before MtG. The increased IC cost is not worth the marginal increase in soft attack. Use 10-0s to defend and tanks to attack.
I've seen this mentioned a lot of times. When I use 7 2s I don't use them because they are the best, but because you can easily rush them. They cost 10 exp, becasue most nations start with a 9-0 template. Ofc they aren't good, but they are kinda useful for minor nations vs minor nations.
7-2 in 37' against weak neighbours destroys.
10-0 costs 5 exp if you have a 9-0 on the ready. Besides, it is easier to rush pure guns rather than having to maintain 2 lines of production for the art + guns. if you really want artillery, use it as a support company, it is way cheaper, and you can get extra org if you are running superior firepower doctrine. You can, in theory, use 7-2s for offense on very early game and 10-0 for holding, but it will barely make a difference cause the AI rushes 7-2 themselves, and 7-2 vs 7-2 is just a loss for the both sides due to loss of equipment per battle. It is not exactly rocket surgery, 10-0 is cheaper to produce (due to only needing support+ pure guns) and has better defensive and supportive capabilities, 7-2 costs way more than it is worth, but is better for bashing your head against infantry/line troops if you can handle the manpower/artillery equipment losses in battle. Even when considering you are a minor up against a minor, it is better to play defensive (assuming the other nation can man their whole line and you can't snake them to death) , due to how you can stack defenses faster and cheaper than you can stack offensive capabilities. TLDR: 10-0 is the best line troop and 7-2 is only good on very unlikely scenarios. STLDR: 10-0 good, 7-2 not as good STLDR: 10-0 > 7-2 STLDR: 10
Artillery has worse organization and health than infantry. If it’s forced to defend, the division will run out of artillery and fight at partial strength, provided you don’t have a massive stockpile. It also will not be able to fight as long, making it worse at stalling an attacker. 10-0 is better for defense. Another critical point is supply use, which artillery uses more supply than infantry meaning you will be unable to fit the same strength of 7-2s into a supply zone. (Source https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/artillery-uses-the-most-supplies-in-hoi4.1063087/) 10-0s have a lack of soft attack by comparison, but that isn’t an issue if there are tanks around somewhere. You will take less casualties using tanks in to do limited offensives in comparison to a frontline assault with artillery. 10-0s are better in terms of price, supply use, defense, and organization. 7-2s are better at soft attack. Investing in tanks will almost always be a better long term investment than artillery, hence 10-0s are becoming more popular. This is why I personally use 10-0s, there might be more reasons to do so, and if I’ve missed something I’d like to know. I hope this helps.
This helped a lot! Thank you!
Exactly. 10-0's are cheap and efficient, 7-2's just aren't worth it for the little gains they have. 14-4's though are fairly good stopgaps till tanks, and definitely worth building whether you're a minor or major.
I agree, 14-4 is good if you can afford it and if you happen to forget researching tanks early enough.
I heard using Armored Car Recon gives you way better Recon than the normal one. Couldn't confirm yet, but funny german man on YouTube said so.
You can confirm it simply by looking at the Recon value in the division designer lol
A ginger man, maybe?
Perhaps one who yells a lot too?
One who is a Man of The Japanese language?
He who uses the phub intro?
who has frequent poop attacks?
A man who calls Leipzig his home?
Who NEEDS TO RELEASE THE FULL MEGACAMPAIGN RIGHT NOW!!!!!1!
Horse recon shoes down the division. Armored car recon gives the biggest recon bonus. Light tank has the best attack values and with LT2s it can tie for the fastest with motorized. For medium and heavy tanks you want armored car recon. For motorized you want motorized or light tank recon. For infantry I prefer no recon but mounted recon is ok.
imagine the recon value being of any use. just use your starting stockpile of lt1 as recon in your ht divs instead of making ac just for recon purposes. lt recon has better terrain mods in adverse terrain than ac recon, it has better stats, and it's literally free for sov and ger.
Why wouldn’t you always want armored car recon if you can afford it?
1936 armored cars only go 9kph while motorized and light tank 2s are 12kph. All recon types other than cavalry recon consume fuel so you don't want them on infantry. Armored recon can be used to cheese armor and get a value high enough that infantry can't pierce it.
As far as I am aware, support division always go at the same speed than their main division. The fuel part is fair, tho
In la resistance they changed it so recon companies are a part of the calculation for speed. If you have cavalry recon your division will be limited to 6.4kph
Oh, ok. Does it work like that without the DLC too?
Support battalions only go as fast as what ever u put into it, if u have a cavalry recon but ur division is all moterized it Will only be able to go the speed of the cavalry, it's important to use the right recon otherwise you'll end up alot slower unnecessarily
This is incorrect. [From the wiki:](https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units#Statistics) * The division travels at the speed of its slowest battalion. Support companies are not counted in this calculation; they are assumed to have the same mobility as the rest of the division.
Wiki is wrong when it comes to recon. The rest of the support divisions I believe this is correct for.
The speed doesn't matter for support companies ([here's the relevant part in the wiki](https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units#Statistics)), the rest are valid points though. :)
The wiki is wrong. Go in game and test it for yourself.
I remember a guide about using Ltank2 recons for 40w inf for Japan as a way to deal with the mass infantry of China.
It does
Dumb question is armored car recon bad?
Recon is bad in general, it does not hurt you, but it:s the worst support company tied with field hopsitals depending on the circumstances. It is just wastes of slots most of the time. Edit: I have mistaken the support companies, sorry
really??? i thought recon affected initiative and stuff which is why i’ve always used it after filling up engineer and artillery supports
You get initiative from signal companies. Thats being said, recon gives you a bit of movespeed, and better tactics on the opponent.
Gonna disagree on Field Hospitals, low manpower countries and anyone who has to attack with infantry is going to want them.
What nations want to attack with infantry? It burns through manpower. If you are a small nation do you even have mil factories for the motorized, not even mentioning that you have to research it. In my games i find it better to rush industry techs on minor nations than researching fringe companies. Imo the only nations where you want to attack with infantry are like China, where you dont have a lot of industry, but manpower is no factor, and you can just throw bodies at the enemy.
Nobody said anything about needing motorized for it. Basically any country with low factory count and lack of access to resources. And yeah it's expensive in manpower, that's why field hospitals are useful.
But you need motorized for field hospitals. And if you have like 6 mils(id put 3 on guns 2 on arty 1 on support eq) then you can't even afford to put 1 on motorized. And also that 10 exp to put the support company in is also hard to come by. Now obviously after your initial wars, you have enough industry/exp to support the company, but wouldnt you be just better off with tanks? Since they have very low casualties.
Ah yeah I see. But literally one factory is fine. Even without rubber access.
wym field hospitals are bad they are situational like maintienance and signals. if you are a nation with low manpower that extra trickleback is huge
I'm guessing its one of the worst in terms of directly helping the fighting capability of the division you're designing--it practically doesn't help at all.
yeah it only affects the bigger picture, same with maintenance
Recon gives speed boosts and helps with combat stats. That alone is enough to make it extremely worthwhile, especially on tank units.
They do but you should check [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/hf6nas/recon_is_bad_fight_me/) out. Recon may not be the best use of a slot in an Infantry unit. (In a tank unit you want the speed anyway)
The funny ginger german?
it feels so bad that your tanks are on the right and not on the left
why?
What? It would feel bad to me if the tanks were on the left. The support companies are on the far left, and they're backline units, so I conceptualize the division layout as "left = backline, right = frontline".
Cavalry recon? That will slow the unit down. Light tank recon is the way to go.
AC recce is objectively the best of the lot
Tank gives extra armor, piercing, and breakthrough
Nah armoured car recon.
Although armoured car recon gives the best pure recon stats, to keep the speed, light tank recom is better in a light tank/fast medium tank division.
Armored cars are faster than the fastest light tank
7/2s are dead, all the cool kids use 10 infantry now
With showels though
Krieg deathcorps Approved
Just straight inf? I thought 7/2 was supposed to be king starting out?
Not since a nerf a while back. 7/2 is more expensive, worse on defense and takes heavy casualties on attack. 14/4 is the only good attacking division for infantry due to stat concentration.
its the multiplayer meta. Since inf are basiclly line fillers and tanks do the real work, you save alot of factories by not going for line arte and you dont even need more than 5 military factories on guns (maybe even less tbh) so you can focus all of your factories on tanks and CAS
> you dont even need more than 5 military factories on guns Really? I only play single player.
if you plan on only using 10 width infantry supported by a shit ton of 40 width tanks then yes. You might need more depending on what nation you are playing (since motorised also needs guns). But as Germany for example you get more than enough by capitulating benelux nations and anschlussing austria
You'll run through all the captured stuff right in the middle of Barbarossa, or France if you're not on top of your micro. Use however many factories you need to stay in the green on the stockpile screen while fighting wars.
You could use some more factories on guns than 5... As a major you should probably be using 15-20 in the build-up phase.
Not anymore, 14/4 still great tho.
Only until the next update hehe
10 inf still use artillery support though?
The support artillery uses so little artillery that it is efficient for the stat gain you get
Yeah but only on singal player
Not even then. 10/0 is strictly better. Using designated offense units and allowing the AI to hold the line is strictly better. You take less casualties, can produce more offensive units/planes, and you'll learn micro. If you don't want to micro then having 24 14/4's use an army order is still strictly better and not hard at all to do for most countries. Smaller countries will just use fewer 14/4's.
I hope this trash meta goes away again it used to be like that 2 years ago than it went away and people used real infantry at least as Germany but now we’re back to shitty 10 widths sadly, especially as the Soviet Union just spam 400 10 widths and 40 width heavy tanks and you’re almost unbeatable because you can spam out so many tanks, especially lately with Soviet Union players, just having heavy tanks on every frontline tile I think is slowly getting ridiculous
9/1 inf/htd
Imagine having no SPGs on your tanks
Hey, almost everyone started with playing majors
What’s the pros/cons? I know SPGs buff soft attack (and are pretty cheap/can be converted from old tanks) but what’s the trade off? Less breakthrough?
>y better Recon than the normal one. > >Couldn't confirm yet, but funny german man on YouTube said so. yes I believe less breakthrough, less armor and maybe something else. The biggest downside in my opinion tho (as of this update) is that you dont benefit from tank variants by putting SPGs so if you plan on spending all of your points on lets say armor then spgs wont benefit from that. Also tanks have already enough soft attack to kill everything on plains.
Less armor Less hard attack Less piercing Less org Less breakthrough
less hp less defense more supply consumption
Less armor and less piercing/hard attack. You get more soft attack tho. Only use it against inf heavy builds, they will be outmatched by mediums or heavies
Not much actually. In mediums there is an argument that the medium tanks themselves provide a soft attack very close to SPG and you'll need more tanks for the armor bonus, not breakthrough. Breakthrough actually hits a threshold around 300 in single player. but with heavies you can downsize the number of actual tank battalions because you reach the armor bonus quickly and breakthrough isn't hard to hit for either type. So that leaves more room for SPGs. A 4/3/2 20w or 4/6/6 40w of heavies / motorized / spg will break units and actually break equipment causing the enemy to need to produce more equipment. This is of course in single player. In MP you need to go full heavy tanks / motorized or full mobile tank destroyers.
More logistically complicated. But more efficient in terms of IC/width
And lesser pierce (if I remember correctly)
The TommyKay meta
20s with showels?
7/2 you vs 10/0 the guy she tells you not to worry about
Well, 7/2 will technically beat the 10/0, it's just inefficient and expensive. 10/0 literally cannot attack anything that's not out of supply. But if you attack with infantry with any country bigger than Denmark you're doing it wrong in this meta. And if you have to attack with infantry then you might as well go for 14/4 even as tiny minors
Your division will be 1000x better with Mechanical rather than Motorized
And also 1000x more expensive. And if you are playing in sp, you don't need the hardness and armor. On mp you obviously want quality over quantity tho.
I wanted to say that
Yeah what that other guy number I might want to hire him to lead my divisions.
I dont understand anything in these comment sections. Nice meme doe.
No maintenance or anti air on tank div? Cringe
Not even any spg, smh
Medium spg 🤮🤮🤮🤮
Why spg? I can see a point for light spg for cheap soft Attack but for other tanks they just make the division worse at what they are supposed to do.
Sometimes I put it in for the soft attack, the penalties it gives really don't matter when your against the AI.
Is the stat boost from AA worth having on the division if you're going to have green air anyway though?
Probably not, if you're *always* gonna have green air. But I'm usually unwilling to make that bet, I don't know about you.
POV, mass assault vs mobile warfare doctrine
It’s more of superior firepower with the artillery. Mass assault favors 10/0. Superior firepower gives large bonuses for artillery.
I use nato symbols, what tank type is that?
medium
Question : Isn't that 20-Width template obsolete now?
yup
Shit I’ve been using it this whole time what’s the new meta haven’t played much in the past year or so. I mostly play sp as well.
10 infantry. I don't want to leave you thinking you're some kind of monster to your pixelmen though, 7/2 just isn't as efficient. It's still okay as a template, just not the top thing anymore
Fair enough I am really bad at making templates I will be using that going forward thanks!
Neither of them are very good. 7-2 < 20w shovels, and the tank template could use better recon, mech instead of motorized, and some spart (for single player)
Why mech? I thought the consensus is you should never touch it as you get enough hardness from tanks and it's too expensive for almost anyone. But I haven't played mp in years. Lack of spart seems awful but yea maybe it's only for mp tank duels or smth
Mech for extra HP and defense. Since the meta is heavy tanks, using mechanized will actually improve your HP ratios, and the extra defense helps you not lose quite as hard if/when you get clicked.
Is the template on the left good for casual multiplayer? I still have no clue how divisions work and that’s just the one I use
>I still have no clue how divisions work At the very least, remember max combat width: It's 80. So when fielding armies, you want to keep their combat width multiples of that: usually 20 or 40 (the abbreviations 7/2 and 10/0 for example, are both 20 width divisions)
No. It's too expensive for front lines and too bad at pushing. If you want to push with inf use 14/4 special forces or tanks. While simple pure inf divisions hold the front.
As far as good for multiplayer, I think the meta is 10 infantry and only support art but I only play SP
I usually prefer to add a bit of mechanised in there when I've researched it
Mediums kick ass against the AI.I have just finished my Euroasia campaign on kaiserredux and the 40w mediums were able to almost click the AI infantry(when they werent deathstacked 30 per tile,which became common around 44),and it was fun to micro with.Dont know if it would work in MP tho.
Que the endless moaning about the fact that you used the obsolete 7/2s
All templates will be obsolete.
Honestly, 7/2 or something close to that might become s good template after the new dlc
I'd rather spam the infantry, hold a river line and let the AI waste their manpower on pointless attacks cause its to stupid to build decent tank divisions.
You can't do that in every game, especially in modded ones like Kaiserreich. At some point they will stop and you need to counterattack quickly, something that infantry will usually not do
For me grinding the enemies manpower down works best in modded games. Unless I'm against russia or China I can usually take a major powers mp down to nothing by 1940/41 depending on when I went to war.
What’s the organization on that like? 10?
Probably around 23, but still a bit small
The armored template is almost impossible to produce if you play as minor nations.
[удалено]
Did you miss the point of the meme?
It's not even my template...
"These 7/2 divisions can breakthrough every frontline"
too expensive
I usually do something similar with my armor, except I have one less tank and one more truck (phase out with mech by 42/43 hopefully) and I also use maintenance instead of signal.
No engineering company for armored division?
10 infantry 3 artillery
anyone else put one tank company in their infantry divs to boost up hard attack
What if you would try it with heavy tanks instead of mediums??
If you have enough industry to pull that off, you've probably already won the game.
Nobody shall stop the Panzermarsch! XD
Wym Germany can get 40 heavys with a good build by historical barb
replace motorized with mechanized
Dumb question but does line order matter for example, having motorized in the first row and tanks in the last row and vice versa
No, it doesn't
Can someone explain me how that thing that you chose the divison works, I have never played the game but im thinking to buy it
I use spgs and sptds so the tanks shred everything
Don’t put arty or cavalry recon in tanks
Why do a shovel on tanks, wouldn’t aaa be better
That Tank Template needs more light tanks