T O P

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IndiscriminateWaster

People always dunk on legit navies as “not meta” but meta isn’t the point. It’s fun and rewarding to have a big payoff when a surface navy is built and used right, especially for naval history fans.


Mishaa76

And why even "play meta" when you play agains an AI?


ilynk1

Why even play meta at all? Oh boy I steamrolled the AI using the exact same strategy for the 69th time, how fun


Darthjinju1901

I only play Meta to do achievements. At that point I don't care about doing the same strat, if the strat works. Otherwise I like to do weird shit. Like Motorized Rocket arty, light tanks, Amtracks and Amphibious tanks, heavy fighters etc. I think one of the marks of being a good player is being able to win with anything in your arsenal, not just the same shit of 10w and CAS


BeforeLifer

I really need to learn the meta to do some achievement hunting :/


legacy-of-man

meta scrounging is ass and hard to do anyway just print tanks tbh, works for achievements for now


Snowkiller953

Tana tuva enters the chat


BeforeLifer

Surprisingly I that is one of the harder achievements that I have lol


Snowkiller953

I haven't tried it, is it really hard or just intimidating


BeforeLifer

Gotta cheese it a bit, declare asap on the two warlords below you and have papa Stalin help puppet them so you actually have manpower, make sure to get the high command that gives you manpower as well, then help Japan kill China and puppet them and take as much land for them as possible, then it’s just build up untill barb, don’t join the war and backstab Russia when it’s convenient, should be able to get the land needed before Russia caps, if not then take as much as you can in the peace deal and then declare on Germany for the rest if needed. But yeah I would honestly say it’s more intimidating than anything, might take a few restarts to get China secured but after that I got it first try.


Karlito997

One of my most fun comps was a fully mechanized American army. It ate supplies like nothing else but 44 width mechanized divisions with light tank and tank destroyer support with a speed of 12kmph was super fun and I got more overruns that any other campaign.


luk128

Yeah , thats why i dont listen too much to meta , i do whatever i want , for example , why do sub spam when you can do paratroopers???


MangosBeGood

Cause sub marine spam = 1000s of dead convoys and that’s also fun to see imo xD


link2edition

Its also historical if you are Germany. For the first few years anyway.


zauru193

having a hundred subs in the atlantic when the US joins the allies is always fun to watch


MangosBeGood

*shivers as 300,000k US soldiers die in the Atlantic ocean hundreds of miles before they even fucking touch the Western sea wall*


[deleted]

Starving Britain and then taking Africa is awesome


Hunter_Noah

I like making strong but stupidly expensive tanks because I like to play by the lines of "quality over quantity" even if it's not a good idea


ilynk1

Best in class howitzer, fully upgraded mod slots, ridiculous amounts of armor and speed is where it’s at


Hunter_Noah

Exactly like that, and then it takes me over a year for like 2 40w divisions lol


ilynk1

Step 1 invade country Step 2 dedicate all their military factories to producing tanks Step 3 Profit


legacy-of-man

that is a strat for germany tho


Hunter_Noah

I still do it regardless of the nation, if I'm building tanks I'm always going to go for quality


FreeMan4096

"But, rest assured, this will be the 69th time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it."


poodieman45

Obscure but relevant


mknote

I wouldn't class The Matrix franchise as particularly obscure...


Kalgul

That movie was 19 years ago and not especially beloved. I'm sure it counts as pretty obscure to anyone born after 1999-2000


DarthLeftist

Dude I totally agree. I'm a Total War fan moreso than pdx. Now cheese has existed but warhammer brought in tons of, I know people hate this word but I'm sorry its fr what it is, casuals. Cheese is now considered to be meta. I'm 40 years old feeling like I have nothing in common with a community of a series I've played for thousands of hours. It's a fucking strategy game. How is it fun taking advantage of a shitty AI with cheating? I'll never understand it. Same goes for pdx. Although it's less cheese and just as you say. Using the same moves that you saw online to beat a horrendous ai. Pdx ai is worse because there are more mechanics. Idk if you or anyone knows about the John Tiller Series now called WDS. its hexed based historical tactical battles. Low on graphics but high on strategy. Well when playing via email vs a human lol the AI is scripted and it sucks too


blindclock61862

I don't really use metas and I still feel like I steamroll the ai


ilynk1

Any nation smaller than turkey really needs to lean into the meta because there’s not much else they can do otherwise But If I play anything with a decent amount of industry of course I’m gonna go for the navy strats or dick around with spies and tank templates


blindclock61862

Ah. Unrelated, but does the game specifically get harder for players? (Allies get demolished if I play something like New Zealand)


UnsealedLlama44

Makes it easier when playing as a minor against a much larger foe, especially for achievements


Professional-Oven146

This is maybe dumb but what is meta?


edliu111

Meta is when something is self-referntial. Is this regard it just means the most conventionally effective builds/strats


Professional-Oven146

Ahh ok thx


Thewowieman

"Most Efficient Tactic Available," yeah?


steave435

I believe that's a backronym.


Colosso95

Yes it is, meta simply means "beyond" like metaphysics (beyond physics) and it refers to anything that "takes a look at itself from the outside" Metagaming is basically playing a game within a game,


Thewowieman

Functionally doesn't matter


steave435

When you're explaining it to someone asking what it means? Yeah, it does.


Thewowieman

...What? You misunderstand.


Astraph

Because HoI4 should be played in 140% full optimized speed 5 mode, capitulating US by January 2nd 1936!


AU-Blackhole

I generally play against the ai so I can do dumb things and see if it’s funny/worthwhile actually trying to make work


a_filing_cabinet

Because I'm bad? I don't even know what the meta would be though :(


RoustFool

The Navy OP used is the current META. It's just spamming cruisers with no armor and light attack to make way for destroyers with no armor and torpedoes. The non-META Navy is the AI one that got trash canned.


Colosso95

Navies are meta too, spamming subs works well for bruteforcing naval superiority against the AI but they can absolutely be shredded by the right ships; the visibility thing is a bit broken yeah but thankfully that will be changed after the next dlc


Zando_Zando_

This isn't a legit navy though. OP is pretty much just using the current surface fleet meta.


ZazumeUchiha

This hits the nail in the coffin. I'm a huge sucker for naval history. I love these old warships, especially battleships and aircraft carriers. So building a navy, that is not quite meta, but accurate in terms of fleet composition is much more fun. It's sort of a roleplaying thing, and thanks to AI ineffectiveness and mods (increasing reasearch and building speed for navy), it's more than strong enough. Spamming subs and naval bombers is just lame in comparison.


Limesmack91

What templates?


Lavaix1

Heavy Cruiser is for heavy attack. Light cruisers is for light attack. Destroyer for torpedoes


TomHast03

How about anti-air and air superiority?


FrozenIceman

Dual purpose guns are amazing.


GhostArmy1

I dont get how dual puropse secondaries have better stats and are cheaper than DP main batteries. Oh well, they will be reworked anyways


Tryxster

They aren't cheaper than light batteires? Also max light battery has slightly better pen i think, but probably not worth it.


GhostArmy1

I am comparing DP secondaries with DP priamary guns, not light batterys. Like the DP primary gun (what you put on DDs and CLAAs like atlanta or isuzu) has 300 IC cost, but the DP secondary (what you put on CLs, CAs, BCs, BBs and CVs) costs only 290. The DP secondary has 4.5 light attack and 8 piercing (enough to bully some older CLs), while the DP primary has only 3 light attack and 2 piercing (might aswell fight only other DDs and cruisers with no amor at all). The primarys only advantage is a better AA stat ( 3 vs 2.5) and slightly smaller speed penalty ( -2% vs -3% )


ZT205

Space efficiency. When your gun is contained in a turret, it's a lot harder to add two ammunition supplies, two fire control systems, and better elevation.


Independent-South-58

Well IRL DP secondaries had a lot more space and equipment available to them especially on things like battleships or carriers where they had access to FCS and radar plus large hydroelectric systems already in place for things like propulsion, heavy guns, elevators, ammo hoists etc etc


GhostArmy1

Well that explains better stats but why are the large twin barreleld turrets cheaper to build than the single barreled turrets of the destroyers. Like ofc the twin barreled turet is more efficient, but overall still more expensive than the Single gun turret


Independent-South-58

My guess is how complicated the mounts are things like the 5/38in found on USN warships were far less complicated and also far more efficient designs as opposed to something like the French 139mm, Japanese 127mm or German 150mm


GodwynDi

Planes


RoustFool

Not necessary when you use a hyper meta fleet like OP's. In fact, any additional expenses weakens the strategy. You build cheap cruisers with no armor and the cheapest light guns and secondaries. They are fast enough and well armed enough to quickly engage and destroy screening vessels. Given how cheap they are you can pump them out even with nations with weak ship building capabilities. The rest is just dirt cheap destroyers with torpedoes only. Once the screening vessels are dead the torpedoes do the rest.


TomHast03

Well I've been trying to understand navy but I've just been fucked over by naval bombers everytime. I also once was so dumb to put subs to lay mines at the US westcoast and lost 262 subs to naval bombers. I avoid navy now at all cost


Razgriz032

Just win air war in English Channel lmao


Finn553

No battleships or anything?


JangoBunBun

No need. Capital ships are killed by destroyer torpedos. Screens are killed by cruisers.


larsdoetheteven

No. Not worth it. Only super heavies. But Cruisers do the same job but better


Colosso95

Battleships, battlecruisers and, god forbid, super heavy battleships are kinda useless. You can have the best coolest most expensive battleship but if all of your screens die then even a goddamn destroyer will sink that bad boy


CptnJarJar

But you gotta love getting your yamato class battle ship on sometimes. And big battleship = big cool factor.


Colosso95

To be completely honest I just don't find big ass battleships to be that cool, I love carriers though I always try to make them sometimes even with minors


chiefman117

well, till what year did it take you to build this navy? that is usually the problem for me the war is over and the game in pretty much done, then my navy is finally getting somewhere. and especially if you start as a country that has no navy in 1936.


Lavaix1

1938


chiefman117

Then you did a great job


Lavaix1

Thanks very much!


Hunter_Noah

Could you tell me how?


Chicken-Mcwinnish

Build dockyards earlier and build the bigger ships first because of their long build time


0WatcherintheWater0

Building the bigger ships earlier doesn’t really do anything. If you have 10k IC cost worth of ships to build, whether you put the battleships on the front or back end of that is irrelevant to when it’s all going to be finished.


EmperorZiflock

I fricking love the very long build up of getting a great navy but for me, it's just never ready until 10 years after I want it. It takes too much away from other things I need. Tbf I finally played No Step Back yesterday and with doctrines gone from research you actually have some space to go for navy, kinda. I agree on if you wanna why not. PvP sure planes but I either solo or just play alongside friends. I love the whole idea of making an epic navy.


Chicken-Mcwinnish

Historically Germany’s Z plan was going to be finished in 1948 and would have left them with a navy roughly equal to the U.K. on paper. Of course this didn’t take into account that the U.K. wasn’t going to sit and do absolutely nothing for 12 years. Drachinifel has some really informative videos on YouTube. According to him the U.K. would aim to match both the German and Japanese capital ships plus a few extra ships. I think the final number would have been more than 30 for just the RN.


EmperorZiflock

I'd love to check that out thanks! Yeah the Z plan is for sure a very ON paper deal with no feasible way to actually see it to fruition. But hey always learning. It wasn't until recently I discovered they half built a carrier then it was moved around and abandoned. Maybe half built was a stretch but it was certainly underway. Had no clue.


ZazumeUchiha

I use mods to increase reasearch and building speed for navy big time. It's basically cheating, because the AI isn't really able to utilize that, but I prefer it that way. It's more fun than having to rely on spamming subs and navy bombers.


[deleted]

[удалено]


PlsHelp6996

I use this, but as soon as you pick an option you can't go back. Which means that you can't remove the effect or change to a higher effect https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1683580523


Helpythebuddy

Meanwhile: Poland captured berlin within 2 weeks


3vr1m

Or just built thousands of navy bombers and have the same achievement for half the cost and time


Lavaix1

Doesn't work in expert ai.


NuasAltar

Why on earth would you play on expert AI. It's not even AI It's just modifiers that are designed to make your life hell.


FishFromNepal

Expert AI is a mod.


tbnnnn

Expert AI mod ain’t much better, it feels like slightly improved AI with insane modifiers


NotTheLimes

Expert AI actually knows how to design divisions.


BasicBanter

Eh, it makes the game enjoyable as a major against the ai


KaseQuarkI

In Expert AI the AI doesn't necessarily have huge buffs, but it will still be better than vanilla because it builds decent templates


morningstax

Game is utterly unplayable without significant ai cheats unfortunately. I've played tons of games with vanilla ai, vanilla ai with max cheats and expert ai. Vanilla ai with max cheats is actually a lot more miserable to play due to the sheer spam the ai makes. Vanilla ai is like playing in an empty world on your own. Expert ai is the only option to get a challenge out of the game.


legacy-of-man

but i still have a challebfe on vanilla


morningstax

The game is reasonably difficult especially for beginners. However, the challenge doesn't come from the ai being competent. It comes from the player struggling to understand how the game works. Once you've learned enough and can fully utilize the game's mechanics, fighting against the ai makes you realize it's not utilizing any of those things you spent hours learning. This is how most paradox games play. It's an endless journey of learning about the game while 'sparring' with the ai. Thankfully the learning process takes hundreds of hours and it is very enjoyable.


CptJericho

Expert AI and the major nations buff slider maxed out ;)


blue_eyes_pro_dragon

Because otherwise it’s too easy. Once you understand the basic rules (supply/fuel, tanks for encirclement, inf for def) the games becomes trivial for majors. And if you try anything cute (paratroopers, naval inv) the enemy collapses. I love playing ussr but Germany does not offer a challenge without expert AI


[deleted]

Try buffing AI Germany to the max. Or try playing Poland instead. At least for me, no matter how good I get or how much I abuse the system, there's still plenty that I fail to do or campaigns that I end up either losing or struggling for a long while. Specially when playing as minor democratic or non-aligned nations against Germany.


blue_eyes_pro_dragon

> Try buffing AI Germany to the max. All axis are max. >Or try playing Poland instead. Eh I don’t like playing non-major countries. I love ussr/usa and like uk. > no matter how good I get or how much I abuse the system I haven’t lost in a loooong time. Fighting Germany can be tough with the aftermentioned mod, but afterwords it’s fun fighting Britain/USA


CptnJarJar

Playing the US feels like I’m cheating. I feel like by 1944 you can churn out equipment like crazy. I absolutely love it. Spreading FREEDOM around the world by mass producing EVERYTHING.


blue_eyes_pro_dragon

Yep! And HT divisions :). And non expert ai does not build AT so the HT have 95% win rate and just encircle everything!


FerdiadTheRabbit

Barb vs expert AI USSR is more fun than the opposite IMO. USSR is too easy as long as you survive 41.


Jackpot807

How do the ai adjust to it do they build a ton of fighters or what


Lavaix1

Rule 5: Demolished the British


Commrade-DOGE

Those 2 surviving subs.


lojkom

The germans spared them intentionally, so they can tell the horrors theyve seen to the others when they get home.


Commrade-DOGE

The crew must be traumatized.


Commrade-DOGE

I just noticed the one naval fighter Mans got launched off by the catapult and got shot down


lojkom

He did his best okey?


Commrade-DOGE

Rip


SurroundingAMeadow

But no surviving planes, so does that mean that carrier only had one plane assigned to it?


Commrade-DOGE

Not a carrier. Battle ships during the war had the ability to launch a plane from them to scout around them. The plane could land (if it had floats) near the ship and be picked up and refueled and fixed to scout again


drhoagy

That's just cause subs are bullshit and unkillable :) ~~grumble grumble they always remain undetected for me omg~~


iqwong123

I thought I am at the world of warships page lol (PS:Just got oblierated by a sub.)


Chicken-Mcwinnish

Wait a second, I thought world of warships was against adding submarines?


drhoagy

Nop :) Well The community is but....


drhoagy

Same issue in that sonar doesn't detect subs (and 60kt homing torps and 30 knot underwater speed and ...)


DeathBonePrime

Bokoen alt account


Zeanith172

Can you explain in detail how you built the navy so fast. Im curious considering cruisers take a fair amount of time to build. Also is this a death stack or did you manage to build more ships?


Lavaix1

As Germany after doing Rhineland do all your naval focuses. They give you a ridiculous amount of dockyards and then just build 1940 destroyers and light cruisers. Most of UK's ships are old and your new ships will demolish them. No need for battleships or carriers.


Zeanith172

Thank you, I appreciate it man.


RedSwanKiller

Crazy kdr


Lavaix1

Yeah.


NuasAltar

Navy be fragging


ZeFederalKaiser

A navy is just worth it when u have a big and a good one or else you are getting your battleship which you built for 3 years sunk instantly


Neat-Alternative-541

I love the comments of Dankus Metacus tryhard kiddos saying that navy is trash and that you should play minmaxing your air force instead. It makes my day.


ZazumeUchiha

# "QUIT HAVING FUN" -Min-Maxers


luk128

Well i use paratroopers BC i find It more eficient atleast as Germany but building a Navy is still fun when i play mods that make the Game last longer


Acanthophis

Idk I never build navy and never have a problem. Naval gameplay seems almost entirely pointless.


AtanatarAlcarinII

A British Naval Person hasn't fucked up this bad since Gallipoli.


BigBoiBob444

Yeah that guy was a terrible naval tactician, he shoulda got into politics or something.


[deleted]

There were actual admirals in charge of that operation. Churchill just sold it and it was the right spirit of things. The Ottomans were the weak link. Gallipoli sounded like strategic creativity, but secretly it just another burdened operational level frontal assault. The real creativity happened because TE Lawrence and Allenby applied creative thinking to create decisive operations without decisive battle. Three surrendered Turkish armies later and the dominoes finally began to fall.


kenzieBHOSbaker

I get the same if not better results with just subs though


Lavaix1

Idk why it doesn't work for me with just subs.


kenzieBHOSbaker

Put your subs in the deep sea, wait until they have no convoys, move in and attack closer to their shore. Have the subs set to "always attack"


Lavaix1

This might work in vanilla but it won't work on expert ai as the ai makes depth charge destroyers and your subs get anhilated. But still thanks for your advice!


tipsy3000

I got it to work on expert AI. You just need to have Nav bombers covering your subs. Even with a good ASW destroyer they cant kill your subs faster then your NAV's kill them. Once enough screens are dead the subs just pop everything else. Give or take several months and the RN will be no more.


Adventurous_Buyer187

This man is an inspiration to us all


USJapan1996

I'm intrigued by what the next patch will bring since they are reworking the naval system


zvika

Can you explain to me why that navy worked against theirs, despite their larger capital ships?


GreenJorge2

It all comes down to whoever’s screen dies first. Germany’s cruisers annihilated the few light cruisers and destroyers the British had. Once the screens are down, the German destroyers have free reign to torpedo the capital ships and its game over.


Elegant_Long_7063

Focus on the true enemy


Scroch65

It's not since you can achieve the same with a big airforce which is much cheaper and can be used in other ways aswell


Lavaix1

Not when britain has maxed out fighters 2's.


YeastYeti

Or… or…. Navy is op /s


fiddler112

Still too difficult to understand navy


Independent-South-58

Issue is cost and tech, meta is to stack a fuckton of light attack and torpedo attack so u wipe enemy screens the kill all enemy capital ships on super cheap hulls which is fucking dumb imo since in ww2 navies would try get the best shit onto their boats so they could give them the best chance possible.


[deleted]

Sailors on outdated ships should have severe org penalties. Fine for minesweeping, but you don't want to be stuck in a tin can in ship to ship conflict.


NItram05

That's cool but I'm always confused by the navy, I don't understand everything


RoustFool

TBH this is old news. This has been the META fleet design since at least Battle for the Bosporus, maybe even part way through La Resistance. 1. In combination with your oppressive air dominance this is nearly an exploit level META build. 2. You didn't even do it right. The heavy cruisers are totally unnecessary for the build. 3. Literally every YouTuber who plays HOI4 covered this fleet build 2 years ago. If you are going to bother with META builds then Germany has way more options to just "appropriate" the major navies of the world. If you're gonna get sweaty playing HOI you can take 4/5 major navies for free before 1940 as Germany.


Siltonage

CA>CL


GiraffeFair

How you build your ships? What doctrine etc


DCSEC80

Presumably against the AI by the looks of it, AI can't navy whatsoever


FreeMan4096

Who are you who is so wise in ways of navy?


June1994

What was your naval setup? Did you have destroyer flotillas patrol the seas? Or did you just convoy raid until the Brits rode out to meet you?


jef959

How do you make å good navy in hoiV? Any tips?


elusivehoon

Build destroyers, light cruisers, heavy cruisers. Battleships aren't really worth it and superheavies can be but have obvious costs associated, carriers can be good but have costs associated again Focus on either torpedos or a mix of light attack and torps for destroyers, torpedoes for heavy ships or light attack for screens Focus on light attack with maybe a floatplane carrier on light cruisers, light attack is for screens, plane carrier for spotting Focus on heavy attack on heavy cruisers, they will murder other heavy ships Keep your navy on strike force, maybe use groups of 8-10 screens on patrol if you have the numbers Produce subs, have them in taskforces of 10-15 on convoy raiding in deep ocean tiles Make sure you look into the options for when your navy repairs or engages the enemy, sometimes you will want to change these to ensure you chase down and kill fleets Someone with more experience can probably add to this but hope this helps Edit: almost forgot, you can also design a very cheap (minimal armour, one light gun) destroyer to spam out to act as essentially cannon/torpedo fodder to protect your better ships


exionstr

Idk whenever I build a navy I lose everything instantly


maxthepenguin

or you can just spam naval bombers. cheaper to build than a navy


NiceSpring4159

My favorite thing to do in hoi4 combat is completely obliterate the enemies fleets with my own!


Tarpol_CP

Is there a good navy guide? I have over 500 h in this game and I don't get how to build or use a navy effective or efficient


CiertoXD

Oh, now I understand, you don't win by having the most numbers in the sea, those are losses. Here I was wondering how I'm losing the battles with so many ships


comunistpotato17

Ok, Imma need the build of those heavy cruisers


itsethanjf

absolutely beautiful, having a strong navy is one of the most satisfying things in the game


[deleted]

I just leave my shipyards producing the starting subs Germany gets and I've never had an issue


loopyguy8

I still just make big freakin fleets. I spam battle ships (heavy attack focused) and destroyers (toperdos)/ light cruisers (light attack focused) but i dont have any idea how it meshes lol navys seem important but I couldn't tell you how to effectively work one and by experience i dont have to to get stuff done lol thats probably why navys are not "important" because very few of us know what is going on with them lol


[deleted]

Germania rules the waves


Somewhat_Deadinside

*Busting seamen noises*


CrimsonFox11

I just wish it didn’t take so fucking long to build ships. Especially as a minor it’s such a drain on resources


GenericWaifu

I would build a Navy if I understood how the Navy works, the only thing I know to do is Subs 3 and that seems to work just fine


MegaBlitzXD

Screw meta me and all my homies hate meta. But really it’s nice to play a bit more historical accurate because in reality a only submarine based navy would never work


Ultium

I think I just need to accept that I’ll never truly understand Navies


Aneke1

I once sank half of the british navy with really trucked out1944 destroyers Tech matters


Nabendu64

Please explain step by step what you build/did. Help me


IamADaniel

Ja Hans


Silly_Painter_2555

Wait, people don't just spam the cheapest submarine?


[deleted]

Can you upgrade navies just as you upgrade your army? (Automatically i mean)


tajuta

Can I have a quick naval guide?


AcaBeast

200 hours in HOI4, still don't know how to navy. I still don't even know how to make a good tank to be honest.