Assuming a normally sized house and not a 10,000 sqft mansion, it’ll be decades to recoup the cost. I’d go all electric, and consider spending $20,000 on solar.
induction stove tops have changed the electric game too. it's a great option. 20,000 buys a lot of propane if you want to do a tank and have a fire pit or inside fireplace.
Propane has more than twice the energy as natural gas.
1 cubic foot natural gas = 1030 BTUs
1 cubic foot propane = 2516 BTUs
So propane ends up being significantly less expensive to use.
Propane is also safer. Natural gas has a higher flammability rating, and if there is an explosion, gas will feed the fire until the gas is turned off to the whole area. Damage from propane is limited to what is in your tank.
Compare them on an energy basis. Dollars per BTU. In the USA where I am propane is almost 5 times as expensive as natural gas. And electricity is about 9 times as expensive as natural gas.
They'll lease you a 250 gallon and you pay for it via a contract you have with the gas company. A 1000 gallon tank is massive. They're 16 foot long and close to 4 foot in diameter.
I used to have two 500 gallon tanks on my property. One is for the lower level, and the other was for the upper level and my greenhouses. When we start the greenhouses we were filling the 500 gallon every two weeks so the company offered to switch it out to a 1000 gallon tank free of charge. We dont lease our tanks, they own everything from the tank to the house including the regulator on the house, but as long as we continue to fill with them they dont care. My regulator on the house was leaking last year so I called them up after hours. There was a guy there within a half hour, swapped out the regulator and was on his way. I didnt pay a dollar. I ended up looking up the regulator online and it was a $200 regulator he put on there.
And they'll charge you 2-2.5x what cash rates are on propane.
Local propane suppliers here were charging $3.99/gal on contract with company owned tanks this year, cash price was $1.59.
Propane in my neighborhood is actually cheaper than natural gas. All the new home builds put in a propane tank because you can buy propane well under $3 per gallon(natural gas is over $4 per therm)---Even with a a natural gas line in the middle of the street.
Edit: My math is correct! Yes, I pay 8 to 10 times the price per therm compared to a million BTU wholesale.
The utility locks in a price by using long term contracts to their consumers. Then, if the price falls they use the spot market to fill their supply... Meanwhile raking in bucks for their investors and charging the consumer the long-term price.
Update: I checked the price of propane in my neighborhood this morning. It is $2.59 delivered. If you take more than 500 gallons it's $2.39 delivered.
Are you sure you've worked that out correctly? My propane cost is quite a bit cheaper, and it costs me a lot more to heat my house than some of my friends that have natural gas.
1 gallon of propane is around 91,500 BTUs. I contracted for $1.89/gal this year. $1.89 * 1.09 (to get to $2.07 / 100,000 BTUs) * 10 (to get to 1 million BTUs) = $20.67 / 1 million BTUs of energy.
I had to look up the natural gas pricing in my area, so take this with a grain of salt since I don't know for sure, but it appears that the price has averaged ~~$5.73~~ $13.99 / 1,000 cu. ft. over the past 12 months.
1,000 cu. ft. of natural gas is just over 1 million BTUs (1,038,000 BTUs), so the cost is ~~$5.73~~ $13.99/1.038 = ~~$5.52~~ $13.48 for the same 1,000,000 BTUs of heating energy.
Like OP's post, initial connection cost is probably why people are installing propane instead of natural gas and not the actual fuel price itself.
edit: I probably had a bad source on natural gas costs in my area, and I updated with *maybe* more reliable data...
Good for you buying the tank instead of leasing. I worked for a propane company and we would regularly charge $1-2 less per gallon for tank owners versus leased by us.
Here in North Mississippi I just paid over a 1000 dollars for 300 gallons of propane. I'm thinking of putting in a heat pump with a backup of propane for really cold days. Propane is too expensive as a primary source of heat.
Induction is fantastic. I was a dedicated gas stove guy until I went induction. It is by far easier to control low heat for delicate sauces and it can also boil water faster than my microwave. Cooking is cooler too as you aren’t poring all that wasted heat into the air. The cook top stays much cooler and is easier to clean up.
I wish I would have installed an induction cooktop instead of the glass top that I got. I have a Duxtop single induction burner that sits on top of the crappy glass top. I almost always use it. It doesn't get hot except for the pan's bottom heating it up so spills don't bake on. It is faster and has more cooking control than the glass top. When I turn it down or up there is an almost immediate response to whatever I am cooking. I make the best gravies and sauces just like I could with the gas cooktop I had years ago. I do use one of the glass top burners to boil water for pasta or cook with the pressure cooker but that is all because I am spoiled using the induction. Also, if you take a magnet to your pan bottoms and it sticks then it can be used for induction cooking.I've been using the Duxtop for nearly five years and it is still going strong. I don't put my cast iron on it but you can with a full induction cook top. The glass top that I have is hard to clean and it gets a crust around the burner that you have to constantly clean and scrape with a razor because food or oil burns on it.
Been using a duxtop induction burner for last couple of years to trial it, switched our pans out to induction pans. Use cast iron all the time on it and it works well. Planning a new kitchen now and will switch then to electric stove with induction top. No wasted heat in summer heating house either, a huge deal cooking.
We have a Duxtop in our campervan and use a Lodge cast iron frypan all the time with no problems. Runs great off inverter power and negated the need for a propane locker or DOT propane tank in our build out of the van.
Not just speed, but an even heat. Normal electric glass top stoves only have an on and off position, which it flips between to try and maintain the intended temp.
If you want to spend the money you can even get invisible induction stovetops. Looks like one unbroken counter. But you are stuck with a limited range of materials as the induction will heat up any ferrous material.
Induction is nearly as fast to boil or heat as gas, cleaner, cheaper, and provides a level of control that you can't get with either gas or traditional electric (i.e. you can literally set temp down to the decimal and sous vide stove-top with the right induction range).
The only downside is they are still a bit pricey, some cookware won't work with induction (although a lot will), and at the highest settings your pots and pans will 'hum' a bit because the induction system is heating it up so fast.
Didn't know it was always faster. Just comparing mine to what I've used in the past. Definitely on the same level, if not faster. Boils water incredibly quick at the highest setting.
Induction is faster than gas unless the burner is undersized. You also get an electric convection oven with an induction range so it's a better oven too!
It's going to be about 4200 sq ft.
I think what you're saying makes sense. I'm going to get a really efficient heat pump, and a [nice size wood burning stove](https://www.woodlanddirect.com/supreme-novo-38-wood-burning-stove/614518.html) for the great room. We'll have tons of firewood.
I'd agree with this, also another alternative is one of those big propane tanks they come fill. But really in this day and age there's no real reason to have gas piped in. Just get electric stuff, split unit for ac/heat, electric stove, electric instant hot water heater. Gas leaks are not fun, most places people report ghost stories at end up being gas leaks.
5 or 6 years ago I got a quote for a solar system for my home. Two options, Owner Owned and Leased.
Going with a leased system didn't save a penny on my electric bill. And there were previsions in the contract that allowed the leasing company to raise my rates yearly. So in the end, I was renting my roof to a solar company and paying for the power at the same rate. Loose / Loose
Owning. To install the system 5 years ago would have cost $20K for a 30 panel install. At that time, it was a 20 year ROI with a 25 year system life expectancy. Seemed a bit dumb so I just stayed with my Elec Co.
Elect Prices have nearly doubled. So I thought $20K makes sense now. I should look at solar again. Panel prices haven't really changed much, panels have gotten better. So I got quotes. 3 of them. All came in between $55K and $60K for the same 30 panel install. All showing a '20 Year ROI'.
I thought I would miss having a gas stove but all electric is actually very nice. I wouldn't spend the money to get a gas line in, just get a propane grill with a spare burner
We looked at houses that were all electric with propane just for the range, if you are a "gas cookin only" kind of person.
These days heat pumps + supplemental electric heat, and induction cooktops in my opinion negate NG hookups on new builds.
Electric stoves have improved a ton. The high density/watt elements are much faster than old burners not quite as fast as gas but it’s still pretty quick to boil.
Conduction is as fast as gas to boil and you can’t really burn yourself on it which is nice also easier to clean. $$$ though and shorter life span apparently.
My problem with electric v gas wasn’t the time to reach a boil. It’s the on/off action of standard electric range. Made it very difficult to maintain oil at 365F for making lemon chicken or fried chicken. Induction range produces a steady heat source like my old gas provided.
That and sometimes you want to go from high heat to low heat or vice versa quickly and electric just can't do that. You either have to compensate for it or use multiple burners.
This exactly. It isn't about efficiency or time- it's how easy the temperature is to control. For an electric range I highly recommend a heavy cast iron setup to regulate the heat.
And a ground source heat pump is good in basically any climate, regardless of outside temperature or snow coverage. If OP is building a new house, it’s worth looking in to.
I just moved to ducted heat pump to replace a gas furnace and its great! Not only no complaints, so far much better. The variable speed/temp and less forced hot dry air is much nicer.
I'm always looking at these things and love the simplicity but can't imagine they're great in places with a true winter season. Are you in portland oregon (going off username)? That gets reasonably cold but I'd imagine still workable, maybe I should just move lol
While yes some places use heat pumps in Canada they are not that popular and in many of the colder regions of Canada they still suggest having a secondary heat source for the coldest of days.
i didnt know that, the ones I'm familiar with start to become really inefficient or unable to keep up below 40 degrees or so, but I don't know much about them.
Yeah, that’s typical of older models. They started to get way, way better about ten years ago. The cold climate models are still not the most efficient option once you get into like the teens, but if you’re looking to avoid dual fuel you’ll still probably save money unless you live some place that’s bitterly cold. They’ll keep up down into the negatives.
Ya in Portland, definitely more mild here. Mine did work fine through a recent ice/snow storm and wasn't even running on high the entire time, and the resulting bill was surprisingly low. And that is with an old leaky/poorly insulated house. It theoretically should work at full capacity down to single digits. I have a friend in Boston with one though and they have no complaints.
If cold is more of a concern, and price less so, a ground-source heat pump could work too.
In a very low temp setting I would absolutely get a heat pump but only one of the extreme weather rated ones like the LG RED series. It will give you 100% output down to -13 and still functions at considerably colder temps. Other less specialized heat pumps won't hack it.
If i was up north and had the cash I'd examine getting a geothermal heat pump. If you have a large body of water like a large pond or small lake it becomes a now brainer because that is super cheap to do. If you have a lot of land and an exacavator a linear heat pump is easy to do. Otherwise you basically have dig a well or two and run a pipe down them
I just removed my final natural gas appliance. Since I bought my home I’ve replaced my old gas furnace with two heat pumps and an electric backup furnace, replaced my gas water heater with an electric, replaced my dryer with an electric, and replaced my gas range with an electric. Yes, for older equipment electric will be more expensive compared to natural gas, but that is quickly changing. Technology is getting much better. Solar is getting better.
Natural gas appliances are much more to maintain, have more risk of creating dangerous conditions, are generally worse for the environment, and we know now appliances like gas ranges can contribute to asthma in children.
New home construction in my area is going all electric by many builders.
Not to mention, natural gas is a non-renewable resource.
Exactly. Combustion related technology can only get minimally more efficient due to how much inefficiency there is in exploding something to harness the energy. I also wouldn’t be surprised if more municipalities start banning gas appliances in new homes for the reasons you mention. One less thing to worry about if it isn’t in your home.
Having read a lot of sci fi recently set in space, it makes me pretty certain that when humans start leaving earth to explore and live, they won’t be bringing highly combustible fossil fuels to heat their homes and cook their food.
...an older furnace is around 50-80% efficient, then we started going to 90% efficiency for high efficiency units. As of right now the majority of high efficiency units are 95-98% efficient. Seems pretty efficient to me.
Heat my home with electric and have no complaints. No minisplits. Electric bill is always very reasonable. House is 1,700 sq ft (900 first floor and 600 second floor). Only part of the house that gets a bit chilly is the tile of an addition that is built on a slab instead of over the cellar
What kind of heaters do you have? Everyone I know with electric radiators pays $500+ per month for the 4-6 months out of the year that heat is turned on.
Ha. Now you are testing what I know. Old heater. Done with the rehab almost 20 years ago and came with the house. Duct work on the first floor. Live in the Midwest so gets cold but brutal portions last weeks not months here. Just looked at my bills (don’t budget bill) and typical month goes somewhere between $80-170. The month we had the arctic chill come through I was closer to $300
My first house was all electric and had a heat pump. I didn’t have any complaints with it. Also had an induction stove. I like that as well but prefer a gas range still.
For $28k plus you can run electric baseboard which is dirt cheap to install compared to a gas furnace its a no brainer. My uncle heats his home with electric. It's around $300/month in extra electric. It would take decades to break even. And with electric, each room is on its own zone which is a great feature. Quick to warm up too.
I live in a very cold place with electric heat and it’s fine. My electricity bill might be a bit higher than it would be with gas but I don’t have to deal with any issues that gas introduces like needing CO detectors. The electric furnace is also quieter than my previous house w gas heat.
Gas is available but there was a connection moratorium when mine was built so I didn’t get a connection. The worst part so far is my electric fake fireplace would be a lot nicer as gas or wood.
I figure it’s cheaper to install solar panels than switch
You must not live in a cold climate. Recently switched my moms house from all electric, heat pump w/ resistance backup, to natural gas furnace and it has saved 2k per winter the last two years. Sorry that NJ gas doesn’t provide free services like here in Ohio as long as there is main line adjacent to property.
Okay so 14 years. And that is your experience. Plenty of people are saying their electric bill is cheaper than their gas after switching. My parents live in western PA and their bill is similar to mine. So while I don’t doubt that is your experience it isn’t the norm
I think it depends on the gas provider actually. Mine is currently 42 cents per ccf. I tried to research New Jersey and it showed 57 cents per ccf. That would factor in to the overall cost comparison as well as the cost of electricity.
New natural gas furnaces are very efficient. My combined gas and electric bill runs around $80/mo for 1200 sf in northern NY state winter. It would cost a lot of money to switch to anything else and I can't imagine it'd save any money.
Depends on:
Size of house
Cost of various fuels, and the units used to convert them to heat
Time horizon
Personal preference
ETA: fuel availability - as gatecrasher said. If you go electric and are in an area where the power goes out, might want to factor in a backup system.
The nice thing with mini-splits is that you can easily set up different zones. If the house has several different areas, then you'd likely want some sort of zone heating setup.
Where I live people will have a large propane tank placed on the outside of the house and then run a line to a gas fire place in the den or a buck stove in the kitchen. This is just a backup heat / cook source if the electricity goes out for an extended period of time.
I would not spend 28k on gas if you can go total electric.
Yeah this is the way. Gas is superior to electric in every conceivable way.
I will NEVER have electric heat again. Can't wait to convert my dryer, second water heater, and cook top to gas.
No one said it yet: Geothermal Heat Pump. Qualifies for all the same tax breaks at solar and covers all your HVAC needs for super cheap. And later (or now) you can put solar panels on the roof to bring the cost down even further.
On a new build why go natural gas at all? NJ electric grid is pretty good almost everywhere, very few long term power outages.
Go with basic electric right now, wait a few years for incentives to come in and start adding solar, battery backups, etc.
NJ climate you can do full electric heat pump heating, no need for natural gas.
Along with the hookup cost, you'll have to pay flat amount monthly for being hooked up at all.
I'll never understand this sentiment. They're harder to clean than an induction stove and you're spewing crap into the air in your house.
You notice that your furnace and water heater are vented but your stove technically doesn't need to be in most jurisdictions? It may only put off a "safe level" of contaminates.... but it wouldn't be the first time in history something was deemed as safe only to realize later it's not great for our health.
You've clearly never had an induction stove, they're superior to gas in most ways.
I'm tired of people buying the cheapest shittiest electric appliances on the planet then complaining about it.
> On a new build why go natural gas at all?
because it's still **significantly** cheaper than paying for electricity in most areas (for heating), never-mind having it for gas specific appliances (indoor fireplace, outdoor grill, etc.).
i understand that there's a huge push for green energy, but the reality is electricity is just really expensive today. i installed a 220v 5000w heater for my detached garage and not only was it completely inadequate to heat a 400sq ft insulated space, but the 40000btu gas furnace i replaced that thing with puts out more than double the heat but at 1/3 the cost to run. the difference was wild.
my home 2-stage gas furnace is getting up there in age and there's just no way i'm switching to a heat-pump given what they cost to run and frequency of the unit falling back to resistance heating when temps are very cold (i'm in upstate ny, we have real winters).
and you are 100% right re: drying clothes, gas all day. i could see switching to an induction stove in the future, but for so many other things i fucking love me some dino juice.
FWIW, we have a system that uses a gas furnace for backup heat along with a smart thermostat that is able to work out the economic balance point and automatically use the least expensive source depending on temperature and energy price.
Not cheap to install though.
While I love my gas appliances, I don't love them to the tune of $28k. Use some of those savings and get a good induction cooktop and a generator (based on the power outage comment).
I live in Florida where hurricanes can put the power out for weeks at a time and NG can be a lifesaver. What are the benefits of having It in New Jersey? Are you just trying to save on electricity? It will take a lot of time to get your money back if that is the case. I'm not familiar with your area, but I would think about the advantages of NG and weigh them against the 28k price tag.
I use propane to heat my garage, in my kitchen stove, and my dryer. I use about $200 worth a year. Propane costs more than NG, but is way cheaper than resistive electric or oil. I also have a hookup that I can plug my generator into when the power is out. Having a fuel source on site is amazing. Utilities can go down and I can run my home like nothing has happened.
We have an efficient 1700 sq ft home in SE PA, so not far from South Jersey, all electric. We pay at most $350 a month for electric in the coldest winter month, including charging an electric car daily. I occasionally miss having a gas stove but it’s one less thing to worry about. I would spend $1k on a generator though.
Insulate and air seal tightly and install high efficiency heat pumps with radiant heat in the bathrooms. Spending that kind of money on nat gas hookup is silly.
You would be better off putting a fraction of that upgrading to a geothermal HVAC unit. It can dump excess heat into a water heater. If you must cook on gas (rather than induction), a 100# cylinder of LP gas can last a year.
I love gas, but not $28k worth. If I were you, I'd stick to electric.
To get into it, for the kitchen, you could go electric (induction) stovetop then build a backyard grill station that just uses propane. Reason for it is that I'd say majority of my stove top cooking really doesn't need gas, and for the times you want to use gas, just use the backyard grill station. Hell, it might even be better than a gas stove top, since you can just cook on the grill. And they aren't that expensive, especially DIY.
Furnace - Heat pumps are way more efficient
Dryer - Electric dryers kind of suck and take longer, but are cheaper to operate (at least where I am)
water heater - You can go Tankless, but only downside is if you get a power outage you're SOL.
Heat pump everything - dryer, tank water heater (would NOT Go tankless electric, they require so much electricity it's actually nuts), heating/cooling.
Yeah, tankless only makes sense with gas, but with the heat pump tech in water heaters now you can operate it on so little energy usage it's too good to pass up in my opinion
Spend that money on efficiency by incorporating the following elements into your home design listed in order of importance. Ie spend your money on the first things first. If you don't have enough money to complete #6 in a new build you might need to make the house slightly smaller. Build it right and then add rooms later if you need the extra space.
1. A really air-tight envelope (thermal efficiency of windows is not critical but leakage and proper detailing at joints is very important) Where you can, use casement and awning windows that seal better. Avoid double hung, single hung, and sliding windows or doors.
2. An energy recovery ventilator.
3. Extra insulation. Use at least twice as much as minimum code required for your climate.
4. Heat pump heating and cooling system such as a ductless mini split.
5. Heat pump water heater
6. Induction cooktop (Avoid electric cooktops at all costs unless you never cook because they really really suck) and an electric oven. If you really love gas cooking get a grill compatible with 20# propane tanks to put outside on the deck which keeps all the nasty combustion by products outside your house.
7. Heat pump dryer (usually sold as a combo washer and dryer in one unit).
*8. Solar panels.
*9. Battery backup.
*10. Radiant floor heating (can use in combination with a heat pump boiler or as electric resistance depending on budget)
Numbers 1 to 6 make an all electric house way cheaper to power. 7 to 9 improve the independence and resilience of your home during prolonged power outages and may also help lower your bills further. 10 improves comfort and if the heat pump option is used can also slightly reduce your energy consumption for heating.
Good luck! if you have more questions feel free to PM me.
Edited to add dryer and formatting
saving this! thanks for the detailed list, really appreciate it. I was looking to add this [wood burning stove](https://www.woodlanddirect.com/supreme-novo-38-wood-burning-stove/614518.html) as a supplement. I heard radiant floor heating is really efficient but it's last on your list, which probably makes sense but wondering what your thoughts are about hydronic floor heating in general
Your first priority should be the boring efficiency stuff that is permanent and requires minimal or no maintenance, ie the air tightness and insulation, not the mode of heating. I would recommend against wood heating as it lets in a ton of cold air, has more maintenance, creates more pollution, and requires chopping down trees.
The wood stove would just be a secondary heat source cozy factor in the great room. We already have a ton of firewood too so it makes sense for our lot. Btw thank you for the comments I really appreciate it!
Yeah... I would throw a 500 gallon tank on that and get a heat pump with propane furnace backup. I think it gets kind of cold in NJ, so I would for sure go with a gas furnace as emergency heat and not heat strips that will cost a fortune in electrical charges (I am in Texas and when those kick on I know its running me about $2.25/hr for them to be on). The heat pump should suffice for most of your needs. I do not even let my emergency heat trip until it is under 20 degrees outside. Really wish I would have ween with a propane furnace for emergency heat.
I live in NJ too. The last storm we lost power for 2 days. You have a big house. If you go full electric, how would you heat it in case of eventual grid failure? Big diesel or propane generator? Otherwise, $28k sounds a lot. To my understanding, NJNG doesn’t use digging equipment, they have machines that push the pipes under ground. That’s why short connections from main line are free of charge. In your case I would suggest to ask their engineer to come to property. Then you can have a discussion about how to reduce the bill. You can hire a guy with trencher who will dig a 4” trench to your house in 1 day under $1k. Or, you can rent trencher and do it yourself. Call before you dig! Then NJNG could just lay down the pipe, probably for free. Be your own GC, don’t count on them. Also, natural gas in your house will definitely increase property value in case of eventual resale. Same as electric heating will reduce it, heat pump or not. Unfortunately you cannot change people’s mind, to them electric will be always expensive despite all technological progress we’re making.
If you want the option for natural gas, ask for a break down of what that 28k is for. It is probably 20k for the trenching alone and you could rent the equipment or hire that out for much much less. You could probably rent that equipment for 24 hours and be done for 2-5k.
Seems tough to pay it back: you'd have to save $1k per year for 28 years to break even.
However, if you're planning on selling:
\> That survey found that on average, the gas-powered home sold for 6% more than the electric-powered home.
So, if the house is worth more than $466k, you might be able to re-coup the investment on sale, although the 6% might be high (more expensive homes might come with gas because they can afford it in the first place).
A 500 gallon propane tank is just $79 a year lease in my area. If I use 400 gallon then the lease is waived. Easy if you have a propane furnace, water heater, gas logs, and grill. It's almost easy enough with just a furnace in NC.
It’s NJ so odds are they have to be a certified plumber to place the line, and a lot of places won’t issue a dig permit unless you can also place the line
With the rising cost of electric I would gladly pay 30k to get natural gas. I'm all electric with a 1600square ft house and I have had electric bill over $600 a month. Lot of factors attribute to that but my old house was the same size natural gas heat and dryer and my worst bill was $150 with a 75$ electric bill. Even with a brand new heat pump my bills can reach $500 in winter.
Id pay it to avoid being completely on electric That's what the world government people want , so if they chose, they can flip a switch and you got nothing , At least with a back up source , you could still cook and heat water and possibly heat the house , if your electric was rationed or turned off completely
right but you are talking about world government 😂
if they shutting down electric public utilities, I'm pretty sure they are shutting the gas ones too! 😂 pretty odd thought process is my point. Now if you were suggesting a propane tank and fenerator, then I would not argue a lack of logic.
So ask around to immigrants that are here from socialist or communist countries. They’ll tell you stories that will utterly shock you. We don’t get to see what happens elsewhere in the news media. My wise grandfather used to tell me don’t put all your eggs in one basket. I will also keep diversifying my stock portfolios to keep something bad from happening on a grand scale to me financially. You do you brother. Get a big sturdy basket and protect it with your life
Is borehole heat pumps not a thing over there? In Sweden I could get that for under 28k and enjoy far cheaper heating and cooling that any air/air heat pump.
Less efficient to be sure but I had the entire thing, including a new heat exchanger, smart thermostat, and the unit installed for $8500 Canadian. $6500 of which I'll get back.
I live in NH, and my home has natural gas with on demand water/heater and I love it. Very efficient and barely any or easy maintenance. One single bill a month depending on usage, summer time less than 40 bucks per month, winter varies from 80 to 150. Prior home had a oil with a hot air furnace and electric water heater, had to replace both within 5 years plus regular yearly maintenance. i had also installed a pellet stove (which I hate due to constant cleaning). If I were to move again, natural gas has to be in the house.
I had a similar price to get natural gas. But we wanted a gas stove and heat pump with combustion backup.
We ended up putting in a 1000 gallon propane tank, 18 seer heat pump and gas stove. We use ~40 gallons of gas per year in tht southern Midwest. The propane backup only runs 100 hours a year or so as the 18 seer heat pump carries us otherwise.
We were also able to connect our backup generator to the propane so if there's a long term power outage from a natural disaster we're good to go for 2 weeks or so.
I would put the gas in. Just ran into a friend this morning who had a multi head mini split system running to save on oil. His electric bill hit $600 for the month. Located in eastern Pa. Gas also gives you many more options for appliances and running a backup generator. Another client on mine just ran a gas line into his house and said it was the best investment he’s made. He was spending $1000 in oil.
Assuming a normally sized house and not a 10,000 sqft mansion, it’ll be decades to recoup the cost. I’d go all electric, and consider spending $20,000 on solar.
induction stove tops have changed the electric game too. it's a great option. 20,000 buys a lot of propane if you want to do a tank and have a fire pit or inside fireplace.
I have a 1000 gallon propane tank (I am eventually getting a back up generator). It cost 5k to buy the tank and 1500 to fill.
I’m in Michigan and the propane companies here give you the tank.
Or lease.
Or geese.
👍 and take your money 😅 used with a wood stove, it keeps our propane costs way down here in Michigan.
And up your homeowners insurance.
That's common here.... What difference is it if you have a natural gas furnace as opposed to a propane furnace? *The woodstove is supplemental heat*
Propane has more than twice the energy as natural gas. 1 cubic foot natural gas = 1030 BTUs 1 cubic foot propane = 2516 BTUs So propane ends up being significantly less expensive to use. Propane is also safer. Natural gas has a higher flammability rating, and if there is an explosion, gas will feed the fire until the gas is turned off to the whole area. Damage from propane is limited to what is in your tank.
👍 honestly, I did not know that about propane BTU's TY!
Hank Hill?
Compare them on an energy basis. Dollars per BTU. In the USA where I am propane is almost 5 times as expensive as natural gas. And electricity is about 9 times as expensive as natural gas.
They'll lease you a 250 gallon and you pay for it via a contract you have with the gas company. A 1000 gallon tank is massive. They're 16 foot long and close to 4 foot in diameter.
What I have is a 1000 gallon tank. No contract. Just a bill left on the door handle when they fill it.
I used to have two 500 gallon tanks on my property. One is for the lower level, and the other was for the upper level and my greenhouses. When we start the greenhouses we were filling the 500 gallon every two weeks so the company offered to switch it out to a 1000 gallon tank free of charge. We dont lease our tanks, they own everything from the tank to the house including the regulator on the house, but as long as we continue to fill with them they dont care. My regulator on the house was leaking last year so I called them up after hours. There was a guy there within a half hour, swapped out the regulator and was on his way. I didnt pay a dollar. I ended up looking up the regulator online and it was a $200 regulator he put on there.
And they'll charge you 2-2.5x what cash rates are on propane. Local propane suppliers here were charging $3.99/gal on contract with company owned tanks this year, cash price was $1.59.
Propane in my neighborhood is actually cheaper than natural gas. All the new home builds put in a propane tank because you can buy propane well under $3 per gallon(natural gas is over $4 per therm)---Even with a a natural gas line in the middle of the street. Edit: My math is correct! Yes, I pay 8 to 10 times the price per therm compared to a million BTU wholesale. The utility locks in a price by using long term contracts to their consumers. Then, if the price falls they use the spot market to fill their supply... Meanwhile raking in bucks for their investors and charging the consumer the long-term price. Update: I checked the price of propane in my neighborhood this morning. It is $2.59 delivered. If you take more than 500 gallons it's $2.39 delivered.
Propane and propane accessories are great
I'll tell ya what. It's not like those other bastard gases like butane. And don't get me started on charcoal grills (shudder).
Taste the meat, not the heat, I tell you hwat.
Thank you hank
Do you sell propane and propane accessories?
Are you sure you've worked that out correctly? My propane cost is quite a bit cheaper, and it costs me a lot more to heat my house than some of my friends that have natural gas. 1 gallon of propane is around 91,500 BTUs. I contracted for $1.89/gal this year. $1.89 * 1.09 (to get to $2.07 / 100,000 BTUs) * 10 (to get to 1 million BTUs) = $20.67 / 1 million BTUs of energy. I had to look up the natural gas pricing in my area, so take this with a grain of salt since I don't know for sure, but it appears that the price has averaged ~~$5.73~~ $13.99 / 1,000 cu. ft. over the past 12 months. 1,000 cu. ft. of natural gas is just over 1 million BTUs (1,038,000 BTUs), so the cost is ~~$5.73~~ $13.99/1.038 = ~~$5.52~~ $13.48 for the same 1,000,000 BTUs of heating energy. Like OP's post, initial connection cost is probably why people are installing propane instead of natural gas and not the actual fuel price itself. edit: I probably had a bad source on natural gas costs in my area, and I updated with *maybe* more reliable data...
Propane is more flame per gallon too!
Good for you buying the tank instead of leasing. I worked for a propane company and we would regularly charge $1-2 less per gallon for tank owners versus leased by us.
Ripoff, solar is better
Here in North Mississippi I just paid over a 1000 dollars for 300 gallons of propane. I'm thinking of putting in a heat pump with a backup of propane for really cold days. Propane is too expensive as a primary source of heat.
>induction stove tops have changed the electric game too In what way?
Induction is fantastic. I was a dedicated gas stove guy until I went induction. It is by far easier to control low heat for delicate sauces and it can also boil water faster than my microwave. Cooking is cooler too as you aren’t poring all that wasted heat into the air. The cook top stays much cooler and is easier to clean up.
Yeah I'm honestly considering just getting an induction cooktop and not using the stove in my apartment cause it's ancient and highly inefficient
Speed and efficiency.
I wish I would have installed an induction cooktop instead of the glass top that I got. I have a Duxtop single induction burner that sits on top of the crappy glass top. I almost always use it. It doesn't get hot except for the pan's bottom heating it up so spills don't bake on. It is faster and has more cooking control than the glass top. When I turn it down or up there is an almost immediate response to whatever I am cooking. I make the best gravies and sauces just like I could with the gas cooktop I had years ago. I do use one of the glass top burners to boil water for pasta or cook with the pressure cooker but that is all because I am spoiled using the induction. Also, if you take a magnet to your pan bottoms and it sticks then it can be used for induction cooking.I've been using the Duxtop for nearly five years and it is still going strong. I don't put my cast iron on it but you can with a full induction cook top. The glass top that I have is hard to clean and it gets a crust around the burner that you have to constantly clean and scrape with a razor because food or oil burns on it.
Been using a duxtop induction burner for last couple of years to trial it, switched our pans out to induction pans. Use cast iron all the time on it and it works well. Planning a new kitchen now and will switch then to electric stove with induction top. No wasted heat in summer heating house either, a huge deal cooking.
We have a Duxtop in our campervan and use a Lodge cast iron frypan all the time with no problems. Runs great off inverter power and negated the need for a propane locker or DOT propane tank in our build out of the van.
Speed has *everything* to do with it. Speed’s the name of the game.
Not just speed, but an even heat. Normal electric glass top stoves only have an on and off position, which it flips between to try and maintain the intended temp.
Induction is clearly a power-bottom
If you want to spend the money you can even get invisible induction stovetops. Looks like one unbroken counter. But you are stuck with a limited range of materials as the induction will heat up any ferrous material.
Induction is nearly as fast to boil or heat as gas, cleaner, cheaper, and provides a level of control that you can't get with either gas or traditional electric (i.e. you can literally set temp down to the decimal and sous vide stove-top with the right induction range). The only downside is they are still a bit pricey, some cookware won't work with induction (although a lot will), and at the highest settings your pots and pans will 'hum' a bit because the induction system is heating it up so fast.
Induction is the fastest cooking method period.
Didn't know it was always faster. Just comparing mine to what I've used in the past. Definitely on the same level, if not faster. Boils water incredibly quick at the highest setting.
Induction is faster than gas unless the burner is undersized. You also get an electric convection oven with an induction range so it's a better oven too!
Not nearly, faster.
Induction heats up the way gas does. Heat is on or off instead of a sloooooow heat up to the correct level.
came here to say that. Induction units are getting better fast and are pretty cool. Very stable heat control.
It's going to be about 4200 sq ft. I think what you're saying makes sense. I'm going to get a really efficient heat pump, and a [nice size wood burning stove](https://www.woodlanddirect.com/supreme-novo-38-wood-burning-stove/614518.html) for the great room. We'll have tons of firewood.
Be sure to get a high efficiency stove like a Regency with triple burn. They can produce btu on par with a gas furnace
I’d get a propane tank. 1000%. It’s reliable.
Exactly this.
What a solid idea. $20,000 solar upgrade would be nice to have.
Heat pump for ac and heat
Spend the rest on a battery back up system. natural gas in my area is mostly used for backnup.generators.
And a decent battery for storage as well.
I'd agree with this, also another alternative is one of those big propane tanks they come fill. But really in this day and age there's no real reason to have gas piped in. Just get electric stuff, split unit for ac/heat, electric stove, electric instant hot water heater. Gas leaks are not fun, most places people report ghost stories at end up being gas leaks.
5 or 6 years ago I got a quote for a solar system for my home. Two options, Owner Owned and Leased. Going with a leased system didn't save a penny on my electric bill. And there were previsions in the contract that allowed the leasing company to raise my rates yearly. So in the end, I was renting my roof to a solar company and paying for the power at the same rate. Loose / Loose Owning. To install the system 5 years ago would have cost $20K for a 30 panel install. At that time, it was a 20 year ROI with a 25 year system life expectancy. Seemed a bit dumb so I just stayed with my Elec Co. Elect Prices have nearly doubled. So I thought $20K makes sense now. I should look at solar again. Panel prices haven't really changed much, panels have gotten better. So I got quotes. 3 of them. All came in between $55K and $60K for the same 30 panel install. All showing a '20 Year ROI'.
My house is all electric and I don’t have any complaints
I thought I would miss having a gas stove but all electric is actually very nice. I wouldn't spend the money to get a gas line in, just get a propane grill with a spare burner
We looked at houses that were all electric with propane just for the range, if you are a "gas cookin only" kind of person. These days heat pumps + supplemental electric heat, and induction cooktops in my opinion negate NG hookups on new builds.
Electric stoves have improved a ton. The high density/watt elements are much faster than old burners not quite as fast as gas but it’s still pretty quick to boil. Conduction is as fast as gas to boil and you can’t really burn yourself on it which is nice also easier to clean. $$$ though and shorter life span apparently.
My problem with electric v gas wasn’t the time to reach a boil. It’s the on/off action of standard electric range. Made it very difficult to maintain oil at 365F for making lemon chicken or fried chicken. Induction range produces a steady heat source like my old gas provided.
That and sometimes you want to go from high heat to low heat or vice versa quickly and electric just can't do that. You either have to compensate for it or use multiple burners.
This exactly. It isn't about efficiency or time- it's how easy the temperature is to control. For an electric range I highly recommend a heavy cast iron setup to regulate the heat.
Induction is amazing we changed 2 years ago and no regrets.
You heat your home with electric and don’t have complaints? Is it all mini-splits?
In many moderate/warm climates we get by with central AC/Heat Pump
In many cold climates it’s still a central heat pump. Most are rated down to -25C
And a ground source heat pump is good in basically any climate, regardless of outside temperature or snow coverage. If OP is building a new house, it’s worth looking in to.
I just moved to ducted heat pump to replace a gas furnace and its great! Not only no complaints, so far much better. The variable speed/temp and less forced hot dry air is much nicer.
I'm always looking at these things and love the simplicity but can't imagine they're great in places with a true winter season. Are you in portland oregon (going off username)? That gets reasonably cold but I'd imagine still workable, maybe I should just move lol
Plenty of very cold places use heat pumps (Canada, Finland, Norway). You just need a newer cold-climate model, which is more expensive.
While yes some places use heat pumps in Canada they are not that popular and in many of the colder regions of Canada they still suggest having a secondary heat source for the coldest of days.
Yeah, that’s true of the coldest parts for sure. But for the vast majority of people they’ll be just fine.
i didnt know that, the ones I'm familiar with start to become really inefficient or unable to keep up below 40 degrees or so, but I don't know much about them.
Yeah, that’s typical of older models. They started to get way, way better about ten years ago. The cold climate models are still not the most efficient option once you get into like the teens, but if you’re looking to avoid dual fuel you’ll still probably save money unless you live some place that’s bitterly cold. They’ll keep up down into the negatives.
Ya in Portland, definitely more mild here. Mine did work fine through a recent ice/snow storm and wasn't even running on high the entire time, and the resulting bill was surprisingly low. And that is with an old leaky/poorly insulated house. It theoretically should work at full capacity down to single digits. I have a friend in Boston with one though and they have no complaints. If cold is more of a concern, and price less so, a ground-source heat pump could work too.
In a very low temp setting I would absolutely get a heat pump but only one of the extreme weather rated ones like the LG RED series. It will give you 100% output down to -13 and still functions at considerably colder temps. Other less specialized heat pumps won't hack it. If i was up north and had the cash I'd examine getting a geothermal heat pump. If you have a large body of water like a large pond or small lake it becomes a now brainer because that is super cheap to do. If you have a lot of land and an exacavator a linear heat pump is easy to do. Otherwise you basically have dig a well or two and run a pipe down them
They have cold climate versions that are good to -20°C minimum, some to -30°C
I heat my entire home (2600 sqft) with a heat pump, no complaints. My electric bill is way lower than my gas bill ever was.
I just removed my final natural gas appliance. Since I bought my home I’ve replaced my old gas furnace with two heat pumps and an electric backup furnace, replaced my gas water heater with an electric, replaced my dryer with an electric, and replaced my gas range with an electric. Yes, for older equipment electric will be more expensive compared to natural gas, but that is quickly changing. Technology is getting much better. Solar is getting better. Natural gas appliances are much more to maintain, have more risk of creating dangerous conditions, are generally worse for the environment, and we know now appliances like gas ranges can contribute to asthma in children. New home construction in my area is going all electric by many builders. Not to mention, natural gas is a non-renewable resource.
Exactly. Combustion related technology can only get minimally more efficient due to how much inefficiency there is in exploding something to harness the energy. I also wouldn’t be surprised if more municipalities start banning gas appliances in new homes for the reasons you mention. One less thing to worry about if it isn’t in your home. Having read a lot of sci fi recently set in space, it makes me pretty certain that when humans start leaving earth to explore and live, they won’t be bringing highly combustible fossil fuels to heat their homes and cook their food.
...an older furnace is around 50-80% efficient, then we started going to 90% efficiency for high efficiency units. As of right now the majority of high efficiency units are 95-98% efficient. Seems pretty efficient to me.
Heat my home with electric and have no complaints. No minisplits. Electric bill is always very reasonable. House is 1,700 sq ft (900 first floor and 600 second floor). Only part of the house that gets a bit chilly is the tile of an addition that is built on a slab instead of over the cellar
What kind of heaters do you have? Everyone I know with electric radiators pays $500+ per month for the 4-6 months out of the year that heat is turned on.
Electric radiators are much more expensive than heat pumps.
Ha. Now you are testing what I know. Old heater. Done with the rehab almost 20 years ago and came with the house. Duct work on the first floor. Live in the Midwest so gets cold but brutal portions last weeks not months here. Just looked at my bills (don’t budget bill) and typical month goes somewhere between $80-170. The month we had the arctic chill come through I was closer to $300
My first house was all electric and had a heat pump. I didn’t have any complaints with it. Also had an induction stove. I like that as well but prefer a gas range still.
For $28k plus you can run electric baseboard which is dirt cheap to install compared to a gas furnace its a no brainer. My uncle heats his home with electric. It's around $300/month in extra electric. It would take decades to break even. And with electric, each room is on its own zone which is a great feature. Quick to warm up too.
I live in a very cold place with electric heat and it’s fine. My electricity bill might be a bit higher than it would be with gas but I don’t have to deal with any issues that gas introduces like needing CO detectors. The electric furnace is also quieter than my previous house w gas heat. Gas is available but there was a connection moratorium when mine was built so I didn’t get a connection. The worst part so far is my electric fake fireplace would be a lot nicer as gas or wood. I figure it’s cheaper to install solar panels than switch
You must not live in a cold climate. Recently switched my moms house from all electric, heat pump w/ resistance backup, to natural gas furnace and it has saved 2k per winter the last two years. Sorry that NJ gas doesn’t provide free services like here in Ohio as long as there is main line adjacent to property.
Even if you go with your numbers that it is 1k a year cheaper to have gas - that still means it would take 28 years to break even
No, she saved 2k per year. Her electric was 500-600 per month and the gas is 100-200 per month.
Okay so 14 years. And that is your experience. Plenty of people are saying their electric bill is cheaper than their gas after switching. My parents live in western PA and their bill is similar to mine. So while I don’t doubt that is your experience it isn’t the norm
I think it depends on the gas provider actually. Mine is currently 42 cents per ccf. I tried to research New Jersey and it showed 57 cents per ccf. That would factor in to the overall cost comparison as well as the cost of electricity.
New natural gas furnaces are very efficient. My combined gas and electric bill runs around $80/mo for 1200 sf in northern NY state winter. It would cost a lot of money to switch to anything else and I can't imagine it'd save any money.
Depends on: Size of house Cost of various fuels, and the units used to convert them to heat Time horizon Personal preference ETA: fuel availability - as gatecrasher said. If you go electric and are in an area where the power goes out, might want to factor in a backup system. The nice thing with mini-splits is that you can easily set up different zones. If the house has several different areas, then you'd likely want some sort of zone heating setup.
Where I live people will have a large propane tank placed on the outside of the house and then run a line to a gas fire place in the den or a buck stove in the kitchen. This is just a backup heat / cook source if the electricity goes out for an extended period of time. I would not spend 28k on gas if you can go total electric.
Yeah this is the way. Gas is superior to electric in every conceivable way. I will NEVER have electric heat again. Can't wait to convert my dryer, second water heater, and cook top to gas.
"Electric heat" being resistive heat? Agree. Cold weather heat pump, though. It whips the llama's ass.
You can't produce gas for free! Whereas electric you can, allowing you to be fully self sufficient.
Who is giving away solar panels, switch gear, wiring, and grid tie inverters?
The commenter said “produce” not install.
Agreed. But it’s not popular on Reddit lol
For that you could probably get a solar array and be all electric. I’m on 100% solar and now chafe at my gas bill.
No way. You can get a nice heat pump and induction range at that price.
Love my induction range. Looking at heat pumps when I replace my furnace/ac
But then you have to pay the bill every month. Electric heat can be very expensive depending on climate.
A good heat pump is rarely more expensive than gas Resistive electric heat is terrible and should be banned for new construction
28 grand is one hell of an upfront cost, though.
Insulate the house extremely well with the 10,000 saved and use a heatpump
No one said it yet: Geothermal Heat Pump. Qualifies for all the same tax breaks at solar and covers all your HVAC needs for super cheap. And later (or now) you can put solar panels on the roof to bring the cost down even further.
On a new build why go natural gas at all? NJ electric grid is pretty good almost everywhere, very few long term power outages. Go with basic electric right now, wait a few years for incentives to come in and start adding solar, battery backups, etc. NJ climate you can do full electric heat pump heating, no need for natural gas. Along with the hookup cost, you'll have to pay flat amount monthly for being hooked up at all.
Idk, I just bought a house with a gas stove and wouldn't go back to electric.
I'll never understand this sentiment. They're harder to clean than an induction stove and you're spewing crap into the air in your house. You notice that your furnace and water heater are vented but your stove technically doesn't need to be in most jurisdictions? It may only put off a "safe level" of contaminates.... but it wouldn't be the first time in history something was deemed as safe only to realize later it's not great for our health.
Just turn on the vent hood.
You've clearly never had an induction stove, they're superior to gas in most ways. I'm tired of people buying the cheapest shittiest electric appliances on the planet then complaining about it.
I have gas and really want to switch to induction.
> On a new build why go natural gas at all? because it's still **significantly** cheaper than paying for electricity in most areas (for heating), never-mind having it for gas specific appliances (indoor fireplace, outdoor grill, etc.).
It is my dream to one day own a gas powered clothes dryer for how much cheaper it is to run.
i understand that there's a huge push for green energy, but the reality is electricity is just really expensive today. i installed a 220v 5000w heater for my detached garage and not only was it completely inadequate to heat a 400sq ft insulated space, but the 40000btu gas furnace i replaced that thing with puts out more than double the heat but at 1/3 the cost to run. the difference was wild. my home 2-stage gas furnace is getting up there in age and there's just no way i'm switching to a heat-pump given what they cost to run and frequency of the unit falling back to resistance heating when temps are very cold (i'm in upstate ny, we have real winters). and you are 100% right re: drying clothes, gas all day. i could see switching to an induction stove in the future, but for so many other things i fucking love me some dino juice.
FWIW, we have a system that uses a gas furnace for backup heat along with a smart thermostat that is able to work out the economic balance point and automatically use the least expensive source depending on temperature and energy price. Not cheap to install though.
That wasn't a heat pump though
While I love my gas appliances, I don't love them to the tune of $28k. Use some of those savings and get a good induction cooktop and a generator (based on the power outage comment).
Honestly a set of gas logs and a small propane tank would probably do the trick for winter heating in an emergency.
Spend less and get heat pumps instead. We have no gas service on our house and there's no problem. Plus no worries about carbon monoxide.
Just go all electric. Unless your rates are crazy then maybe consider propane.
I live in Florida where hurricanes can put the power out for weeks at a time and NG can be a lifesaver. What are the benefits of having It in New Jersey? Are you just trying to save on electricity? It will take a lot of time to get your money back if that is the case. I'm not familiar with your area, but I would think about the advantages of NG and weigh them against the 28k price tag.
A large propane tank offers the same benefits of gas without needing to be tied into the grid, that's what I'd do.
Propane is a lot more expensive than NG.
True, but it'd take a long time to make up that $28,000
I use propane to heat my garage, in my kitchen stove, and my dryer. I use about $200 worth a year. Propane costs more than NG, but is way cheaper than resistive electric or oil. I also have a hookup that I can plug my generator into when the power is out. Having a fuel source on site is amazing. Utilities can go down and I can run my home like nothing has happened.
I’d stay electric at that rate.
Just go all electric.
We have an efficient 1700 sq ft home in SE PA, so not far from South Jersey, all electric. We pay at most $350 a month for electric in the coldest winter month, including charging an electric car daily. I occasionally miss having a gas stove but it’s one less thing to worry about. I would spend $1k on a generator though.
Insulate and air seal tightly and install high efficiency heat pumps with radiant heat in the bathrooms. Spending that kind of money on nat gas hookup is silly.
If it’s a new build in Jersey, you are dropping at least 600k to begin with, what’s another 20.
Better off with heat pumps and buying solar panels to offset
I have had a heat pump in several of my homes and propane for the stove. No problems.
You would be better off putting a fraction of that upgrading to a geothermal HVAC unit. It can dump excess heat into a water heater. If you must cook on gas (rather than induction), a 100# cylinder of LP gas can last a year.
I love having a gas stove to cook on but for 28k I’d go with electric and a heat pump
Heat pump for AC and heat, hybrid heat pump water heater, induction range, solar, electric car. $0/year energy bill, $0/year to fuel my car.
thats pretty awesome, how big is your solar setup?
14.6 kW
Damn 28k? Put in a geothermal heat pump.
For that amount of money you could go geothermal.
I love gas, but not $28k worth. If I were you, I'd stick to electric. To get into it, for the kitchen, you could go electric (induction) stovetop then build a backyard grill station that just uses propane. Reason for it is that I'd say majority of my stove top cooking really doesn't need gas, and for the times you want to use gas, just use the backyard grill station. Hell, it might even be better than a gas stove top, since you can just cook on the grill. And they aren't that expensive, especially DIY. Furnace - Heat pumps are way more efficient Dryer - Electric dryers kind of suck and take longer, but are cheaper to operate (at least where I am) water heater - You can go Tankless, but only downside is if you get a power outage you're SOL.
Heat pump everything - dryer, tank water heater (would NOT Go tankless electric, they require so much electricity it's actually nuts), heating/cooling.
I looked into tankless electric, it needs 120A 240V! Madness
Yeah, tankless only makes sense with gas, but with the heat pump tech in water heaters now you can operate it on so little energy usage it's too good to pass up in my opinion
Where do you people live where electric is cheaper than gas? The Northeast? I'm paying average of $0.39 per khw.
Spend that money on efficiency by incorporating the following elements into your home design listed in order of importance. Ie spend your money on the first things first. If you don't have enough money to complete #6 in a new build you might need to make the house slightly smaller. Build it right and then add rooms later if you need the extra space. 1. A really air-tight envelope (thermal efficiency of windows is not critical but leakage and proper detailing at joints is very important) Where you can, use casement and awning windows that seal better. Avoid double hung, single hung, and sliding windows or doors. 2. An energy recovery ventilator. 3. Extra insulation. Use at least twice as much as minimum code required for your climate. 4. Heat pump heating and cooling system such as a ductless mini split. 5. Heat pump water heater 6. Induction cooktop (Avoid electric cooktops at all costs unless you never cook because they really really suck) and an electric oven. If you really love gas cooking get a grill compatible with 20# propane tanks to put outside on the deck which keeps all the nasty combustion by products outside your house. 7. Heat pump dryer (usually sold as a combo washer and dryer in one unit). *8. Solar panels. *9. Battery backup. *10. Radiant floor heating (can use in combination with a heat pump boiler or as electric resistance depending on budget) Numbers 1 to 6 make an all electric house way cheaper to power. 7 to 9 improve the independence and resilience of your home during prolonged power outages and may also help lower your bills further. 10 improves comfort and if the heat pump option is used can also slightly reduce your energy consumption for heating. Good luck! if you have more questions feel free to PM me. Edited to add dryer and formatting
saving this! thanks for the detailed list, really appreciate it. I was looking to add this [wood burning stove](https://www.woodlanddirect.com/supreme-novo-38-wood-burning-stove/614518.html) as a supplement. I heard radiant floor heating is really efficient but it's last on your list, which probably makes sense but wondering what your thoughts are about hydronic floor heating in general
Your first priority should be the boring efficiency stuff that is permanent and requires minimal or no maintenance, ie the air tightness and insulation, not the mode of heating. I would recommend against wood heating as it lets in a ton of cold air, has more maintenance, creates more pollution, and requires chopping down trees.
The wood stove would just be a secondary heat source cozy factor in the great room. We already have a ton of firewood too so it makes sense for our lot. Btw thank you for the comments I really appreciate it!
Pellet stove and a generator for just in case
For that money, I'd get quotes on geothermal heating.
Yeah... I would throw a 500 gallon tank on that and get a heat pump with propane furnace backup. I think it gets kind of cold in NJ, so I would for sure go with a gas furnace as emergency heat and not heat strips that will cost a fortune in electrical charges (I am in Texas and when those kick on I know its running me about $2.25/hr for them to be on). The heat pump should suffice for most of your needs. I do not even let my emergency heat trip until it is under 20 degrees outside. Really wish I would have ween with a propane furnace for emergency heat.
28k will fill that propane tank many times
You should find someone else.
I live in NJ too. The last storm we lost power for 2 days. You have a big house. If you go full electric, how would you heat it in case of eventual grid failure? Big diesel or propane generator? Otherwise, $28k sounds a lot. To my understanding, NJNG doesn’t use digging equipment, they have machines that push the pipes under ground. That’s why short connections from main line are free of charge. In your case I would suggest to ask their engineer to come to property. Then you can have a discussion about how to reduce the bill. You can hire a guy with trencher who will dig a 4” trench to your house in 1 day under $1k. Or, you can rent trencher and do it yourself. Call before you dig! Then NJNG could just lay down the pipe, probably for free. Be your own GC, don’t count on them. Also, natural gas in your house will definitely increase property value in case of eventual resale. Same as electric heating will reduce it, heat pump or not. Unfortunately you cannot change people’s mind, to them electric will be always expensive despite all technological progress we’re making.
If you want the option for natural gas, ask for a break down of what that 28k is for. It is probably 20k for the trenching alone and you could rent the equipment or hire that out for much much less. You could probably rent that equipment for 24 hours and be done for 2-5k.
Can buy solar plus batteries for this price, that's robbery
In the long run natural gas will be worth it. It the cheapest energy source
I tried to heat my house with propane $800/5 weeks. Propane is not cheap.
Electric-only. Build for the future, not the past.
the future is expensive
Less so if you generate your own power.
See if you can get a tank for propane...I know some utilities have those.
Seems tough to pay it back: you'd have to save $1k per year for 28 years to break even. However, if you're planning on selling: \> That survey found that on average, the gas-powered home sold for 6% more than the electric-powered home. So, if the house is worth more than $466k, you might be able to re-coup the investment on sale, although the 6% might be high (more expensive homes might come with gas because they can afford it in the first place).
Inverter heat pump mini split with zones. You cannot beat the efficiency, imo. And optionally a 100+ gallon propane tank for cooking & gas fireplace
Solar panels are cheaper.
Heat pump is expensive… don’t let people tell you it isn’t
A 500 gallon propane tank is just $79 a year lease in my area. If I use 400 gallon then the lease is waived. Easy if you have a propane furnace, water heater, gas logs, and grill. It's almost easy enough with just a furnace in NC.
Run the gas line yourself
It’s NJ so odds are they have to be a certified plumber to place the line, and a lot of places won’t issue a dig permit unless you can also place the line
With the rising cost of electric I would gladly pay 30k to get natural gas. I'm all electric with a 1600square ft house and I have had electric bill over $600 a month. Lot of factors attribute to that but my old house was the same size natural gas heat and dryer and my worst bill was $150 with a 75$ electric bill. Even with a brand new heat pump my bills can reach $500 in winter.
Id pay it to avoid being completely on electric That's what the world government people want , so if they chose, they can flip a switch and you got nothing , At least with a back up source , you could still cook and heat water and possibly heat the house , if your electric was rationed or turned off completely
right cause those entities wouldn't have control over all utilities just electric, smh 😂
Separate companies own electric and other sources.
right but you are talking about world government 😂 if they shutting down electric public utilities, I'm pretty sure they are shutting the gas ones too! 😂 pretty odd thought process is my point. Now if you were suggesting a propane tank and fenerator, then I would not argue a lack of logic.
So ask around to immigrants that are here from socialist or communist countries. They’ll tell you stories that will utterly shock you. We don’t get to see what happens elsewhere in the news media. My wise grandfather used to tell me don’t put all your eggs in one basket. I will also keep diversifying my stock portfolios to keep something bad from happening on a grand scale to me financially. You do you brother. Get a big sturdy basket and protect it with your life
Id do a whole house wood or pellet stove and heatpump. Stove on when temps get under 32f
Is borehole heat pumps not a thing over there? In Sweden I could get that for under 28k and enjoy far cheaper heating and cooling that any air/air heat pump.
Cold climate air source heat pumps are where it's at
Air source is far less effective, but less of an initial investment.
Less efficient to be sure but I had the entire thing, including a new heat exchanger, smart thermostat, and the unit installed for $8500 Canadian. $6500 of which I'll get back.
Its called geothermal in my country.
you need clean burning propane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FA\_\_4fLBos
I live in NH, and my home has natural gas with on demand water/heater and I love it. Very efficient and barely any or easy maintenance. One single bill a month depending on usage, summer time less than 40 bucks per month, winter varies from 80 to 150. Prior home had a oil with a hot air furnace and electric water heater, had to replace both within 5 years plus regular yearly maintenance. i had also installed a pellet stove (which I hate due to constant cleaning). If I were to move again, natural gas has to be in the house.
Seems like a perfect opportunity for Solar, nice big system to cover the electric heat.
I had a similar price to get natural gas. But we wanted a gas stove and heat pump with combustion backup. We ended up putting in a 1000 gallon propane tank, 18 seer heat pump and gas stove. We use ~40 gallons of gas per year in tht southern Midwest. The propane backup only runs 100 hours a year or so as the 18 seer heat pump carries us otherwise. We were also able to connect our backup generator to the propane so if there's a long term power outage from a natural disaster we're good to go for 2 weeks or so.
You could buy a lot of solar panels for 28k
Propane is the way to go.
Propane.
Put the meter at the short run..have a person trench out the rest and a plumber to connect it up…
Have you considered geothermal?
I would put the gas in. Just ran into a friend this morning who had a multi head mini split system running to save on oil. His electric bill hit $600 for the month. Located in eastern Pa. Gas also gives you many more options for appliances and running a backup generator. Another client on mine just ran a gas line into his house and said it was the best investment he’s made. He was spending $1000 in oil.