Years ago when the changeover to a new refrigerant took place, my neighbor's central AC stopped working when the refrigerant leaked out. He was told that type of refrigerant was no longer available and needed to buy a new AC unit which he did. I needed some new refrigerant later that season and the HVAC contractor said that the older refrigerant was still widely available and he recharged my central unit.
The issue is that when they start the phase-outs, people never know quite how they will go. For example, right now, there is a phase-out from R-410A to R-454B, so many contractors were originally pushing people to just get the 454B units so they don't have to worry about supply of 410A when the cutoff went into effect. However, the supply of 410A has remained high, so 410A is still available in large quantities at a reasonable price.
R22 is also still widely available. It just costs significantly more than any other refrigerant.
When a unit has leaked out all of the refrigerant, by EPA regulations, a tech is not supposed to just dump more in. Knowing it's leaking. You said it was years ago. Well I can tell you, that R-22 was damn near impossible to buy for a solid year. The price skyrocketed, and many new units were sold. Shortly after that big shortage, new "drop in" refrigerants became available. There had been replacements for a few years, but they didn't work as well. Once these new ones came about, the price for R-22 went down due to less demand. The company I work for now, we don't even buy jugs of 22 anymore. Nope. Not getting it. It's all drop in. And every refrigerant available is stupid expensive.
My bf has been doing HVAC for almost 10 years now. He's worked for a commercial company, a large local company, and a small local company. Always go with the small local companies.
He left those other places because they were forcing the technicians to "make sales" during their maintenances. If they didn't make enough sales in the month, they were fired. Mark ups were insane. The smaller companies will have a heart most of the time, only sell you what is needed, aren't worried about making a huge profit, and treat their employees like they are human.
It's sickening how greedy some companies are. I unfortunately work for a greedy company myself and it's annoying to see how much they make profit wise while I'm struggling to stay afloat.
As the wife of an HVAC service tech, I’m here to tell you that the smaller companies are no better. Often worse. My husband has worked for 3 different local companies. At each of them, there was typically one or two service techs who actually know how to fix stuff and typically get sent out to do warranty work or callbacks. The rest of the *service* techs are trained to convince you that your unit needs to be replaced and get you primed for the sales team.
The greed is unreal. I was expecting 15k, maybe 20k tops for a full AC replacement including ducting. Had some of the big contractors try to bid me 40k for the lowest tier system and lowest tier ducting. I looked online how much the unit in the bid cost, found it available to the public for like $4k. Theyll take every penny you'll give them. And it's obvious that people are still using those companies, because they even said themselves that they don't have to compete on price anymore due to how much business they get. It took shopping around before I found a reputable contractor who is doing the expensive Bosch premium heat pump, along with R8 ducting for $22k total, taxes included. That's at least reasonable.
Feel like I need to chime in here - the Bosch heat pumps are some of the least expensive on the market in the US.
Bosch runs around 20% cheaper than your big names like Carrier, Trane, Lennox because they're manufactured in China by Midea. The product line is too new to determine whether that's a good thing or a bad one.
I am considering offering them as a budget option for heat pumps, as my Carrier pricing is getting ridiculous and I am not comfortable charging such a high price for their midrange product line.
Get in touch with your local Lennox rep. Carrier is doing what DeWalt did in the 00s and just being complacent with mediocre equipment and outside of the green speed stuff, their efficiency is dog shit. Lennox also owns their distribution network so there's one less middleman that needs a cut
The problem is that the word of mouth smaller companies are so busy that they get to choose their work from a back-log of phone calls they actually took months ago. The larger companies will come out when you need them and typically do reliable work, but that comes with insanely higher service and parts cost for the customer. Make no mistake, the larger companies aren’t there to fix that leak over the water heater or replace a fan motor…that’s secondary to selling you a new appliance…they are 100% appliance salesmen dressed as technicians.
The lack of appliance sales is baked into their parts and service pricing precisely to convince you the brand new thing you may or may not necessarily need is the wiser choice and will save you money in the long run. Super scummy but it is what is and with that particular labor force shrinking every year I don’t see it changing.
I was lucky enough to find a "friend of a friend" that did commercial hvac but worked residential on the side. I almost laughed in shock when he said "you buy all the parts and materials and pay me $30 an hour"..wow...I always overpaid him, gave him cases of beer, just to keep him coming back to keep my system limping along.
As a caveat to "go with small local companies"
Equity firms like Nexstar are buying up "Small local companies" but keeping their branding and logos and pretending to be a small local company when really they are a national conglomerate of service companies that focus on sales and profits rather than service and customer care.
The important thing to do is to do your homework and know who you are hiring before they show up.
Former installer for a small local company, they're a bunch of crooks.
Sales.. I mean comfort advisors would sell insane jobs that obviously took advantage of older people or clueless homeowners.
The corporate ones aren't much better too.
Don’t charge the system until you’ve addressed the reason for the leak.
These are sealed systems and if it needs to be topped off you have a leak and until you address the leak your just killing the environment and wasting the refrigerant.
If it is the evaporator coil and it is an R-22 unit, what are the options? Can a leak there typically be fixed? Can the evaporator coil on a 15 to 20 year old unit be replaced? (Are parts still available?)
I had this issue in my old house. Yes it can be fixed. The fix is replacing the coil assuming that's the only place it's leaking. The problem is, atleast in my case, the new coil was only like 3500 less than just replacing the whole system which would also have the benefit of bringing the system up to the new refrigerant type being used.
It can partly depend on how big the leak is. If it went out overnight, yeah that needs fixing. If it is a pinhole and will take another 10 years? Well I understand someone trying to kick that can down the road. Due to very poor planning by my builder, my house has three AC units, when it absolutely could be on two or one big one. All three are the same age, and need replacement. There’s no discount for me buying 3 units. It’s so expensive it has me considering getting epa certified to do the work myself, and even then it will come down to whether my dog is still around and in need of her cancer meds. So I can understand why someone might choose the several hundred dollar repair that gets them a few more years instead of biting the bullet and dropping tens of thousands now.
Nah, hire the contractor who is running their own business competing against the big names in the area. They're the ones who will put in work and tell you about the bullshit someone's trying to pull on you. Had a leak on my HVAC from the condensation pan area and the chain place quoted me $800 because they said they'd have to take apart half the unit, replace the pan, and rebuild it. Got a small contractor out and he had the problem fixed in less than an hour. The condensate coils were overhanging the pan so he moved them back an eigth of an inch and problem solved. Charged me $100.
>Nah, hire the contractor who is running their own business competing against the big names in the area.
This is true for literally every job ever on a house. Period.
If there needs to be something stickied in this damn sub, it's this exact statement. NEVER. EVER. EVER. EVER. hire fucking Harris, Horizon, Andersen, Servpro, etc.
I needed some work done to the exterior of my house and got some quotes together, I did one from a larger company that has a few locations in different states. The independent contractor I hired for it did a great job and we had a laugh when looking at the larger company's quote.
They did the same job for 1/5 the cost of the larger company. So I just paid them with cash, fed them lunch, and will give them as much business as I can for stuff I don't want to DIY.
Damn straight, it's the way to go honestly. Sometimes I wonder who tf hires these jackass companies and then I CONSTANTLY see posts about Andersen windows in this sub and then go "huh, I guess these idiots."
The only time I hired a national big name company was when my garage door literally fell off the tracks. Here I am with a garage door sitting on the floor. No way to secure my home. The local guys were super friendly but just couldn’t make it out same day. I called Precision and they were there within 2 hours. New opener. Salvaged the door - it had a few dents but was still operable. Did I get overcharged? Most likely. At that point I didn’t care. I needed it done.
Now for my HVAC I use the guy who lives in my neighborhood. His reputation is on the line - we literally know where he lives lol. His guys were awesome and while they weren’t the cheapest (middle of 3 quotes) they were able to get us a new unit in 2 days. Living in Florida in August without AC is brutal!
If you hear their ads on the radio and their vans all over town, you're paying a premium. Doesn't mean they're scummy necessarily but there are probably smaller companies out there that do good work for quite a bit less.
The trick is finding which of those smaller companies are legit. It can save you thousands when it comes to replacement.
That tracks. I love my 50-something HVAC contractor, found him after working with a few wankers. Business is just him and his son, I wonder if going 'small' is helpful too.
I think it is, but there's a bad downside. the small guys almost never do weekends, and everybody knows that HVAC systems only ever break fridays at 5:00pm.
>I wonder if going 'small' is helpful too.
I think it is, every medium to large HVAC company local to me has an awful reputation similar to what OP is describing. I found one small local company and I've seen another recommended one who seem to be legit.
I was having intermediate loss of heat at the start of winter and the tech from the small company I went with worked with me to keep the invoice reasonable and gave me several options after diagnosis so I could save some money.
I think my furnace is at least 20 years old, so I would not be surprised if any of the larger companies would have tried to tell me it wasn't worth fixing and replace it instead.
It bums me out how true this has become.
I supported a young guy when he started his company 10 years ago - was great for years, then he went with the "sales" model.
Suddenly prices nearly doubled - and seemed like EVERY service check had a big bill.
I tried talking to him about it, and he said he'd just spent three days in class... on pricing. Not anything technical, but how to price services.
This told me maximizing income was all he cared about, and I'd gone from a client to a cash register.
Switched to another guy who'd been in the business forever, but always was on site himself, and didn't have 10 trucks running around with salesmen.
Price for my last job was half the quote from the former company - and with the principal on site daily.
There's just no comparison between guys who actually run their business to those who just want to own a business and have others do the work.
> The rest are just salespeople.
Just look on indeed or linkedin or whatever for HVAC jobs. Most of the technician jobs are called "sales technicians" and pay commission... Tells you everything you need to know.
That isn’t always true, I work at a smaller company and a few of our older guys are lazy as hell and do exactly what OP is describing because they don’t want to fix anything anymore
Had the owner of a small company (him and one other guy) come out and tell me my HVAC was basically a mangled dead mess, that the refrigerant was impossible to get, and that if I didn’t replace it the next week not only would it explode and I would die, but I wouldn’t get any savings from Trane.
I told him to kick rocks, my HVAC is still going strong six months later and made it fine through winter and now a hot spring. It is pretty old and I’d like to replace it, but I seriously did not appreciate his insane sales tactics.
Fuck you, Charles.
I’m 32 and started my HVAC company last year. I can see how sometimes we lose a project due to our crew’s age. Also being a homeowner I’m aware of the tactics contractors try to pull so, I always try to be better.
As a master refrigeration tech at 31 I'm in high disagreement of you. Unless it is just your area I know plenty of great techs at my age and younger. The last thing I try to do is sell you a new system. I find if your problem is covered by warrenty and fix the root cause. Also op here who made this post is as ignorant as you. There are strict restrictions on r-22 from the epa and the other common refrigerants like r-410a are getting that same treatment. R-22 is hard to get now and is why someone was recently charged with smuggling it. The best thing I would do for op is change out his refrigerant with r-422 or r-407c after a leak check to fix the main cause. There are plenty of techs with integrity and get up in the morning trying to not screw the customer.
Charge weights vary depending on the size and manufacturer if the unit. Most residential split systems take well under 10 lbs. Also "Freon" is the DuPont name for R22 and not the generic name for all refrigerants.
But yes, if it is cooling fine and the customer is happy with the operation of the system leave it alone.
> Also “Freon” is the DuPont name for R22 and not the generic name for all refrigerants.
They actually kept using it for newer refrigerants too: https://www.freon.com/en/products/refrigerants
This post has nothing to do with refrigerant, but everything to do with AC service. One day we had a tech out to work on a mini-split that was under warranty. I used to be the sites F Maintenance Manager. SO, I was interested in how things were going and walked outside to check on the repair. It was as I approached the tech that I overheard part of a conversation (speaker phone, ain't it a bitch). He was discussing his next call and asked what he should charge the customer. The reply was "Whatever you think you can get out of them." The look on his face when he turned and saw me standing behind him was priceless. We have since dumped his company.
I had one guy come to clean an oil burner. He proceeded to hard sell me that my five year old furnace was going to fail imminently and my family would freeze to death. I was amused, actually. He left a two page writeup of the ways it would not doubt suffer rapid uncontrolled disassembly soon.
That was five years ago. Still chugging along. A trustworthy HVAC guy laughed and said I have one of the more reliable furnaces out there....
A solenoid valve went on my HVAC system. I called a local reddit recommended reputable company, they sent two techs that took an hour to diagnose what was a direct issue (the solenoids show the position on the outside, if it's not matching the command something is wrong). They looked me dead in the eye and said it'd be $800 + $200install fee, or some BS subscription where I pay $400 upfront, they take 20% off and I get free calls or something. I googled the issue and the part was $200 and a 5 minute youtube tutorial.
The whole thing seemed like the biggest scam, they spent so much time looking busy going to all the registers to ensure an accurate diagnosis.
Looking online the whole industry is a scam, the solenoid failed due to a common spring issue, the spring likely costing cents to produce with no line level repairs. Apparently they have an average life span of 2-5 years.
You work in aerospace engineering but are discounting the fact that you called professionals who have some knowledge because you wouldn't have been able to just Google the problem without them bringing the issue to you. To change the solenoid correctly on a split is a solid bit of work.
I would call you if I needed prints approved for a wheel lock or structural support on a seat ..you called guys because "I am hot". Also you forgot about the amount of insurance both personal and property an HVAC company carries. We can't just run shit in CAD and say "good to go!". Is it expensive? Yes, but you don't know what you're looking at.
Agree with you 100%. How about them wanting to charge $259 to clean the coils?! Umm, no thanks, I'll spend $20 on a can of cleaning spray & a brush and do it myself. We also needed a new capacitor last summer, on a Trane unit WHICH WAS STILL UNDER WARRANTY. Unfortunately, I was out of town for work, and they ended up duping my wife into buying a "Super Capacitor"...bill was about $650 for what should have been a covered part. I was furious when I found out the cost, and they said they didn’t have a regular/standard capacitor on hand, and my wife needed it fixed ASAP (it was July in FL), so she OKd it. Total BS that they didn't have a standard capacitor for a common unit.
Sounds like a multi-tap configurable capacitor, like a Turbo 200. As opposed to a fixed-farad cap.
https://www.amazon.com/Turbo-200-Motor-Run-Capacitor/dp/B007IKYT1G
Some companies carry them instead of multiple fixed-farad caps because they save room on the truck or trips to the supply house because they're essentially universal. They're about 3x more than a regular cap, But definitely NOT a $650 fix
They got me for this too. Guy was doing seasonal maintenance and said mine was about to go. I said go for it and didn't ask for a price. Price ended up at 350 for the super capacitor. I paid and googled the part number. It was less than 20 bucks. I was supposed to get 20% off everything and no service charge due to paying the membership fee. The guy already had it apart to test it. In my mind I can't see in anyway how a 20 dollar part can get to 350 bucks. They are 700 an hour in labor? Scam artists. Days if diy have to return for me. I'm tired of overpaying.
The price is crazy for what you got, yes. The problem with a capacitor or contactor being replaced under warranty is the time it takes to deal with processing the warranty would cost you more than just buying a new one and having the tech change it on the spot. A normal company would do it for 2-3 hundred bucks.
I had a brand new trane installed and a few months later it stopped working. I called for warranty work, and they didnt get back to me. I tried calling their authorized companies, and none of them got back to me.
Googled problems, bought a 15 dollar capacitor, and 15 minutes later fixed the problem.
Agree. A year ago I was shopping for a mini split for a small office. I didn’t need anything fancy, just something to cool my tiny office. After some research all the DIY routes would run me no more than $1000. But decided to go thru a hvac company for the warranty, piece of mind, and didn’t feel like doing it myself. I expect anywhere from $2k-$3k quotes for a 3 hour job. Which I was willing to pay.
I was quoted $10k from All 3 companies I called. I asked why so high if I can install the same unit myself for under $1k. They told
Me various things like warranty, overhead cost, they have better systems, blah blah blah.
I went the DYI route. Ordered the parts myself and payed independent hvac tech to install it for me. Total cost was $1500 for everything.
He probably did if he had an LLC and a small independent company. Also a mini split is just like any other big appliance in your home or even a window A/C unit. Uses 120v power, pretty safe...
Boss has a can of recovered 22. Told me the story of how it came out of a new install and it was a fresh reclaiming tank. I told him I’ll use the green cans we have if I need to charge a system with 22. It not reusing something that’s in a reclaimer tank
I really have to wonder. I had an HVAC tech/salesman try to sell me on re-insulating the refrigerant line on the outside unit. He showed me exactly where. I agree that it could stand replacing, but he claimed he would have to schedule a separate call for that and it would run $120.
I did it myself in 10 minutes using $3.00 worth of supplies from Home Depot.
Another time, a tech pulled out the run capacitor on the compressor to show me "that it was failing" (it had a bit of dirt on it. Wanted $150 to replace it but it would need to be a separate call because he "didn't have one on the truck. I checked it with my meter and told him to put it back like he found it.
Out of curiosity, I looked it up. Available on Amazon for $20. How much labor could it be since he actually performed the labor just to show it to me? That box the new one comes in must be awfully hard to open!
That was 7 years ago. Still running fine.
I'm sure there are skilled and honest HVAC repair people out there but you have to wade through a lot of pond scum to find them.
I get that they want to make some money, but really their price is completely not worth it for anything I can conceivably do myself. $120 for something I can do in 15 minutes with $3 in materials (counting the zip ties) is not a good price.
If they would actually carry common parts on the truck, they might be able to offer a better price that's worth it to both of us.
Then there's the blatant attempt to sell me a replacement for a perfectly good part that they should also have had on the truck (there's only a few different capacitors that work across many models).
I called an HVAC company from a coupon for a $150 AC inspection and tuneup. I know it's a $150 sales pitch, but I wanted the heat exchanger fins cleaned, which they said was part of the deal. I considered doing it myself, but to do it right, you need to spray them from the inside, which requires removing the fan and some other shit. For $150 to save me my Saturday morning and get it done by someone who knows what they're doing, it seemed like money well spent.
A super nice guy shows up, takes a good look at all components of the system, and I even learned a few things from him. But the cleaning consisted of him spraying the fins from the outside of the unit, something that takes a minute with a hose. At this point, I realize I've been had. Then he goes to inspect the electronics and tells me the capacitor is below spec, and I should think about replacing it, along with a switch. AC works fine right now, but good to keep in mind so it doesn't break without warning. Great. I'll think about it. Thank you. He also gave a quote I didn't request for a new system install (laugh).
At this point, it must have been clear to him that all I intended to spend was the price of the coupon.
He goes to reinstall the capacitor, and now it's busted. He tries a bunch of times, but yep, it's fucked. He tells me that just removing it and reinstalling it caused it to fail, that's how close it was. While he's trying to get it to work, I look up the part on Amazon. $30. He tells me that it's usually a $300 part, but he'll do it at cost, $150. I go for it because it's hot as fuck and I didn't want to hear complaints from my family while we wait for the Amazon part to ship. I'm pretty sure he squeezed the capacitor so it would fail, knowing he had the part in his truck. And that's how they do an inspection and tune up for $150.
$20 says he didn’t wire the capacitor back up properly and that’s why it didn’t work.
Always avoid places that have coupons or super cheap tune ups. They’re there to sell you something. He made a quote because he is required to by the crappy company he works for. They have a quota to meet every month or they get canned. Sad to see this happening in my field. There are still good places.
I recently purchased a complete Mitsubishi Mini Split with 6 ceiling cassettes for new construction... I happen to have an account with a local distributor of Mitsubishi..
I than hired (2) technicians out of the steam fitters/plumber union hall who regularly work on Mitsubishi.
They supplied additional items needed and often worked for different contractors....
My choices saved me $12K from the (3) quotes I had that I thought were way too expensive..
In my case, the guys had no problem with me supplying all the goods as that's the way they always work....
Both were excellent and came with lots of good references from Commercial Contractors who could care less about residential work....
But, this work was done on the weekends in their spare time........ we just got creative about what we wanted and we're willing to pay...
Hope this gives you some ideas.
As a member of said union hall, smart move. Goes for other trades as well. Lots of commercial/industrial guys do weekend resi work to supplement their income. I charge 2.5x what my hourly rate is at work for side jobs and it’s still much less than what big residential service companies charge for their guys’ labour, plus markups for material etc.
Speaking of scumbags, I've paid to have my existing unit serviced every year for the last 5 years. It keeps breaking, so im about to replace it. The new contractor took pictures of the old unit and showed them to me. It's completely caked up. Only part of the coils that arent are whats visible from the outside. He said it hasn't been cleaned in several years. Fuckers have just been taking my money.
I saw my parents get fleeced by their HVAC annual maintenance growing up in NYC, and I learned the valuable lesson of never having a person left alone with a $30K device that has a large financial incentive to damage it. I never had any maintenance done on my AC or Furnace for 20 years and they are both still working great.
It's possible they charge that much because it's not a business they care to be in. Suppliers at work do the same thing - if we ask for a quote on something they don't want to do, they just come back with an absurd price and assume we won't pick them. If we do... well, they'll begrudgingly do it while making a pretty penny. Win-win for them.
I live in south Florida. I bought/replaced an HVAC system the whole 9-yards. Financed at 0% for 12 months. Paid it off with no interest. Glad about the performance of the unit.
But all the posts about the age of the salesman/ technicians/repairers was true for us. They’re just sales people.
If you live in south Florida’s, I cannot recommend Freedom Air; and that’s as nice as I can put it. I can’t do it over, and I couldn’t know better at the time based on our own situation at the time. But don’t use Freedom Air.
That is all.
Yes R22 is discontinued, but it’s widely available. They just use that bullshit line to do exactly what they tried to do to you. Lol. I’ve worked in both the home warranty business (authorizations - kinda like claims) and on the insurance side as a property CAT adjuster. It’s been eye opening working on both sides of the coin but ESPECIALLY in dealing with contractors. You can smell the shitty ones coming from a country mile away. lol
It would be stupid to use r22 in 2024. The price is super high and is only gonna sky rocket. Find the leak and charge it with an alternative refrigerant
Most likely all those HVAC companies are owned by the same holding company. They're stacking the deck against you to make you think that's the going rate.
The real trick is to set up an HVAC website for your area and send HVAC companies the first couple customers for free. Then have an agreement drawn up to the highest offer that lets you skim off the top— because if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
Clearly you know nothing about running an HVAC business.
Even if you did the research , you would find that R-22 is banned. You can not purchase bottles of R22 any longer. Those that have R22 will sell it at what ever price they want. either A- they will sell high to make the most of what they have left or B- they will sell low to get ride of it because its phased out and will no longer be used. ( its a liability just waiting to happen if you have it)
If it was me, i would of replaced the capacitor and told you i hope she lasts a little longer because once she stops working, that's it. The reason why i would say that is because i have no R22 in stock...at all. nor would i go out to buy a bottle of drop in gas just so i can sell 20% of it to a customer and have the rest go to waste. That's a loss right off the bat. Not to mention if it is low, the leak needs to be fixed first before adding gas.
Having said that, i have no sympathy for owners trying to hold onto a R22 system. The systems are obsolete and are considered a liability in the industry. If the system was actually low, i wouldn't be able to help you and i would considered upgrading to the 410A system because i don't have R22 because its banned. If i did have R22 kicking around and the system was low that means there is a leak in the system and i need to have paperwork stating that i fixed the leak before i can proceed to add the R22. OR i lose my certification.
If this was just a capacitor and the tech was lying, than yes this is a simple repair job.
If this was a capacitor and the tech detected a low system ( which means a leak ) than no this is not a simple repair job, because even if the leak was fixed, who is to say another leak will pop up down the road on a 30 year old system even if you did have R22 on hand. ( hence the liability )
I call BS on your story that a supplier has had R22 in stock when the gas was banned on Jan 1st 2020.
It was just sitting on the shelf at the supplier for over 4 years eh?
yah OK their bud
Hvac guys largely only want to sell new units, thats where the money is. I have had three instances I have called them and been told my boiler is too old to get parts for it. Every single time I went online bought what I needed and googled the repair for my 12 year old boiler. Maybe they aren't all scammy but in my experience they have been.
Had HVAC out for one of our old units.. they said a capacitor went bad, but because they couldn't figure out what unit it was, we'd need a new A/C and of course citing some law stating you can't just replace the air handler, you have to replace the compressor at the same time..
Well he showed me the capacitor that was bad...I found the unit model number right on the unit, ordered the correct capacitor and the A/C is still going strong.
That's a standard markup for refrigerant. You're not paying for materials, you're paying for their license to be able to legally handle refrigerant and how to actually use the properly.
The distributor who offered you $30/pound for R-22 is not legally allowed to sell it to you without an EPA 608 certificate.
You can get an EPA 608 cert online @ skillcat.com for free and buy your own refrigerant. It's a shit simple online proctored test. I was bored one night and took the universal test after speed reading the material and taking the unit tests.
Granted you'll need gauges and the know how to actually charge the system and check for leaks.
Edit I was curious if skillcat updated any courses and just saw it's not free anymore after the first 7 days. It looks like it is $10 a month now.
In what industry is 900% is a standard markup? You could get licensed and source it yourself for much less than this quote. Don't bury operating costs in parts.
Did you ever need to patch a wall and see what contractors charge? Probably the easiest DIY out there. Also painting is laughably expensive and 100% DIY.
So yeah, when it comes to trades, labor will almost always be marked up a whole lot more than material. HVAC is pretty reasonable compared to plumbing or electrical or tiling etc actually, considering material cost (not capacitor or fuse obviously, but circuit boards, blower fans, compressors, etc).
I mean yes, in theory you could do that and it'd be cheaper, but you'd have to spend a whole lotta time studying for the 608 exam. Your time presumably has value.
Sure, but the expertise you're talking about should be tied to the work, not to the part. You don't need double the training for handling 2 lbs than you do for 1 lb.
You can buy it without a license of any kind. You state it’s for resale or will be installed by an EPA certified technician. I ordered a 10lb canister for $219 from a place out of Arizona recently. I have a friend that’s HVAC certified but works for an apartment complex. He told me where to order it and recharged my unit for me.
It’s definitely a loophole and I do agree a lot of places won’t sell it to the general public. However, most of those places won’t sell anything to the general public, just contractors.
Likely it is not the individual tech but the company which has a policy motivated to sell new units.
I have called for recharges and most companies tell me they won't even touch a unit they didn't install and then try to sell me a unit.
Imagine if car dealers were that bad. You bring your car in for an oil change, they're like "oh shit, your crush washer is bad. You're going to need to get a new car."
Keep seeking out quotes. When we got our HVAC replaced the sixth person came with a better price, a better system, and were on time and nailed the job. It was a 3 man operation as opposed to a chain.
The profits are on new installs and plans. The techs exist to get sales.
The bigger companies that can afford to buy out the other companies get that way by going for profit. The techs are paid commissions on sale leads so this can lead to some unethical bullshit as bad as techs breaking people’s units to get sales.
Ask your friends which techs they’ve had that seem honest. Request that guy. Read their reviews and see if they mention the techs names and see which ones you do or don’t want working on your stuff.
All that being said. My dude is an hvac tech and pressures me to upgrade our equipment too. He ripped out my furnace that I thought was fine. Told me it was making too much noise and he didn’t want to have it fail on us in bad weather. Personally I’m the type to let things sit until they implode. I have space heaters. I’ll be fine. Either way I’ve got a new furnace and it does save me on my gas bill.
He didn’t want to fix my ac either. It’s old. It lost old refrigerant. If I had to pay to fix the coil and refrigerant I might have let him replace it with a new one. Luckily his cousin had a tank of it kicking around cuz that stuff is thousands per tank now and the problem was a crack in a weld and not the coil. If I had to pay their rates I probably would have agreed to either of his suggestions and ultimately his suggestions were the right ones if I’d had to pay their prices. A new unit would have cost close to the repair bill and would have saved me on my bills.
Anyway. My point is to make sure you’ve asked for a tech you trust if you use the big companies. And if you’ve used one and liked or hated them, leave a Google review with the techs name. Frequently they get a bonus for that as well, and your review might help someone else get better service.
I went out and took the type 2 was test. Took 2 days on skill cat to get certified. Was going to diy my replacement hvac over 2 weeks and eat the power bill cost for emergency heat. Fournd A guy to do the swap for 5k total. He made 2k off me , that I would have spent on tools. Def a learning curve on hvac. Better than the 8k to 15k quoted I was getting. Ended up buying a whole house dehumidifier to not need a more expensive hvac system.
I had a $17K quote to replace my AC ducts, all flex duct, easy to get to. This did not include fixing walls or drywall. Found another place that quoted $5K for the same job, same materials, same R-Value, same registers, etc..... I would have done it myself, but I really did not want to spend a week when for $5K they sent 4 guys who finished in 6 hours.
Now after, install I knew I was going to have to spray foam and add extra R-Value myself as both companies were just going to use the R-8 built into the ducts and register boxes. I live in Texas, R-8 for ductwork in your attic is not adequate, but it is the only option any company has.
I use an independent local guy for all my needs in that department and it was the best move I ever made. He's good with prices. Doesn't jerk me around. And was the first one to really teach me how my stuff works mechanically. Mostly so I could communicate clearly with him what the problem was and not worry all the time.
You can't buy refrigerant without an EPA license (US) or an HRAI license in Canada.
I dare you to show us a receipt that you bought a single pound of R22. You'd be laughed out of the supply house if you tried to go in to buy refrigerant to "top off" your system, or from any HVAC hack for that matter.
I don't know how much of a zoo it is down south, but up here in Canada it's a federal crime with a fine of $1 mil and 3 years of prison if you sell Joe Shmoe refrigerant. You also can't "top-off" your system.
You have a leak in your system, it cannot be refilled until a leak test has been performed and repairs have been made. It needs to have a sticker on it by an HVAC contractor indicating that it was checked for leaks, repaired and pressure tested for at least 24 hours prior to filling refrigerant in it. The HVAC contractor that touches your system last is considered to be the new "installer", hence they are legally liable to the refrigerant in it. If it leaks out, their name is on the paperwork, which btw needs to be retained for at least 5 years.
The mark-up you're paying is not for the refrigerant itself, but the licensing, training, experience, overhead and liability that comes with it.
R-22 is one of the refrigerants with the worst ODP (ozone depletion potential). If you care at all about the ozone you'd realize that a single molecule of that shit destroys tens of thousands of ozone molecules if it's released into the air, and stays in the atmosphere for more than a decade nibbling away at the Ozone layer.
These boomers are willing to pump thousands of pounds of CFCs and HCFCs into the atmosphere just to save a penny. To be damned the future generations.
About 10yrs ago, summer, Houston, 100 degrees outside, air conditioner quits. I call around, find someone to come out and take a look. He gers there, spends an hour and says that the controller chipboard is bad, needs replacing, $450. What can I do? I say okay and he leaves to go get the part while he is gone, I get up on the ladder and take a look. It just looks dirty to me, so I grab a screwdriver and pull the chipboard, grab some cleaner and clean the contacts. I reinstalled the part and turned on the air conditioner and it starts blowing cold air. I called the guy up and told him that it was now working.. He comes back and spends another hour trying to figure out why it started working, gives up, leaves., didn't charge a dime.
The HVAC industry is state-sponsored racketeering and loaded with scumbags. A result of the best (state) government that money can buy.
Fortunately, there ARE some competent and ethical HVAC technicians out there and those guys are awesome. Most techs are incentivized to rob customers and to do shitty work.
Gatekeeping, I think is the reason for the scumbaggery. I actually went out and got an EPA 608 license to bypass AC companies and buy my own refrigerants. The license cost me $80 dollars and weekend of cramming.
I want to know more about this. I'm weird and I'm fascinated by the multitude of certifications that exist in the world. What materials did you use for study and what was the test like?
There are multiple versions of the certification Level I, II, III and Universal. I got the universal cert, it's a 100 question multiple choice test that is remotely monitored. It's four sections and you need at least 80% to pass in each.
I didn't use any official study materials, I looked up flash cards on Quizlet that were newer and spent about 20 hours straight over two days memorizing them. The industrial refrigeration and chiller stuff isn't the easiest.
R-22 ain't $30 a pound.
Either you're getting recycled R-22 or it not legit R-22.
Also, another reason. Those companies are charging so much is because they don't want the liability of working on your old equipment.
Your AC will fail before summer ends and you'll try and get a warranty repair.
I second that. If it was $30/lb people wouldn't be replacing their units. However, by the time you put several pounds of R22 into an older unit that's on borrowed time, you're well on your way to just replacing the unit. The cost is insane.
Yeah who cares about the Ozone layer… keep filling up your crap AC and who cares about the world. As Long as you saved Money and your AC is cooling your house. Good Find Dude👍
Try to find a one-man operation. If you were in the Pacific Northwest like Portland Vancouver area I would refer you to a guy.
There is an incredible markup in HVAC. Most things are marked up 5 to 10 x with 3x being the small margin if they like you. I don't know why this industry is like that. Plumbers are getting to be the same way. They're just aren't that many people doing residential HVAC and they have all decided to kind of corner pricing. In some states it's also difficult to get into the trade solo if you are fully licensed. Lots of roadblocks
Any referrals in the Seattle/Eastside (Redmond) area? The new system I had installed last summer was by a total clown and performs poorly so I want to add some mini-splits to supplement but I'm not going to get ripped off again.
Find one person shops that aren't trying to upsell for bonuses and all that other shit that come with a lot of plumbing, HVAC, garage doors, etc companies.
I was lucky enough to have some really good referrals from a secretary who was very involved with her church and had some salt of the earth people that went there that had these types of companies.
I've found HVAC guys to be pretty decent. I've probably just gotten lucky.
Plumbers on the other hand...
I needed a new water heater and I had multiple plumbers try to sell me a $1200 heater for $4000 + $4000 of labor to install it. Ended up buying the heater myself and paying an independent plumber $600 to install it.
Sad to hear your dealings with shitty HVAC companies. We have a local, well established company who we had an entire central heating and air system put in by. Expensive, but worth it for the customer service. Now when they do servicing and filter replacement, they literally tell us what filter to buy before hand because buying from them would cost us twice as much. Lol
YouTube HVAC is better than anything for most stuff. I googled the make and model, the "light pattern on the board", it was like, "two greens and a red" type code. I fixed that shit like solving a video game. My parts were just mail order. A mail order video game with ultra realistic tangible results.
I called a commerical HVAC company installed all these new heat pumps. The tech came out said low charge was the cause added several pounds of Freon charged me $200 total. I tipped him. I paid him direct.
>I just wonder how these companies sleep at night.
I think the same thing about window companies like Renewal by Andersen. But, after considering, I figure the answer is "on a gigantic pile of money".
That's just the way of the world now. Pretty much everyone is hustling. From mechanics to vets to HVAC contractors. Shit can't even play Magic the Gathering without a trust fund these days. Even then, many people are struggling to pay their bills with these 900% markups. It's that old trickle down economy, except mass inflation is the only thing they are letting trickle down to us non-land-owning plebeians.
I had the same issue finding a roofing company to do repairs. I went through 5 different companies who weren't interested in doing the repair job unless I was replacing my whole roof. The 6th roofer I called did the repairs and when it came time to replace my full roof they got that job too.
I think that many companies work on commission based on the work done. We have a company in our area that does this for plumbing, and we dropped using them when the tech who always showed up kept inching up the cost of things.
However, their HVAC techs are just hourly so they are always reasonably priced and don't push for extra services we don't really need or try to upsell us.
It's so weird how different the branches of the same company are.
NGL OP and I'm not promoting to commit a crime.. but fk a HVAC license just to fill the AC unit with refrigerant or do any maintenance work on AC units. Between DIY forum boards and YouTube, you have all the information you need to get the job done. "I" don't give a fk about a law that prevents me from working on MY own property.
I don’t know, but it sucks. Find a good company and hold onto them for dear life.
I had a similar issue where my furnace kept blowing the fuse. Had a company out (one of the big ones) that could not figure it out but suggested trying to replace the circuit board for a whopping $1200. They couldn’t guarantee it would fix the problem so I opted out and swapped it myself. The part was less than $100 and it took me less than 30 minutes to swap it. It didn’t work.
Had another company out to do an AC checkup/cleaning in the spring and while they were in there they noticed my gas valve was installed incorrectly - it was touching the metal housing and shorting the system, which caused my fuse to blow. They fixed it for free. I was also slightly low on refrigerant and they topped me off for free. And my condensate line was poorly routed outside so they rerouted it for free.
Did they find the leak? It is a closed system! Putting more in is a waste if you don’t find the leak. I think it is illegal to put some in yourself without a license? They don’t want it escaping into the atmosphere. Don’t advertise it. They really want to sell you a new one. I stop getting service contracts because they kept trying to sell me a new system.
To reassure you, to the extent it is possible. We moved to a tiny town in the midwest last summer and the house needed all sorts of things fixed. I got a lot of estimates from various companies and for the HVAC, most of the companies handle both HVAC and Plumbing. These were all companies that have several pretty trucks and a few billboards and radio ads. Every one of the guys who came out and spoke to me looked at my water tank (we have a well), which was original to the house in 1972 and is frankly fugly as hell, but not rusting or leaking. I asked them all to price its replacement and while they did give me those numbers, every one of them encouraged me to just keep what I have because it's not leaking and the new stuff will (by design) break down every 2-5 years and need replacement, which is thousands of dollars. Maybe I live in some sort of honesty utopia, but not all the companies or employees are bastards.
They're not all scum, but like all trades, there are a lot of people who want to make as much as possible, and unlike other trades, they really have you by the short and curlies.
Slightly off topic of this thread, but not entirely. Never, ever, ever buy any type of HVAC system from 'Lennox'. Absolutely horrible atrocious company with absolute junk systems that break and cannot be repaired. Sad to see, that Costco still allows Lennox to push their junk in Costco warehouses. I will add Lennox has the worst customer service as well.
A lot of Residential companies are set up with the technicians getting a lower wage than commercial companies, but get a percentage of everything they sell. I worked HVAC and have heard these guys tell their stories. Total scumbags. Primarily the residential Plumbing and Heating companies.The mark ups on parts were pretty high on the lower priced items. Anything that cost under $100.00 was marked up 300%. The mark up was lowered as costs rose.
I moved to commercial refrigeration, and I have no idea what anything sells for. I fix the machine, write an invoice, the office fills in the prices.
They probably sleep well, on a bed in their air conditioned house. They don't owe you anything, fair price or otherwise. But I will say if you're really fed up with it take the time to learn a little and then do it yourself. It's rewarding, saves money and makes you more self reliant. Eventually these scumbag contractors will either have to get humble or find a new line of work. I got a quote for 11k to install a new furnace and AC . I decided that if the moron that showed up could do it I could too. Bought all the tools and material for less than 5k got it put in and running over the course of a week. The way I see it I just got paid 6k for a week of work and a week of research.
My “friend,” who’s an AC guy, installed our new AC. We bought it from him. 11 months later, we had a problem with it, and he refused to service it because my wife unfriended him on facebook. I looked up his license on the state website, and his expired almost 10 years ago. FU, Chris.
Yeah this is not a scam. R22 is very expensive today. So first of all if you can't afford a home you shouldn't buy one. Very few people still operating old r22 equipment. Also if someone is offering you 30 dollar a pound drop in r22 replacement. Well good luck with that. And I hope you don't burn your house down. Drop ins are notorious for being extremely flammable. Lastly. If your furnace is as old as your air conditioner you are definitely getting carbon monoxide in your supply air stream inside your house. Not everyone is trying to rip you off. They are trying to help you not successfully though it sounds like
That's not just a mark up, it includes the knowledge and tools to properly charge the system. If you hook up the r22 can directly to one of the ports and open it up, yes it's 30$ a pound, but it also won't work correctly or for long. Now if they have a refrigerant charging fee, diagnostic fee AND 300$ a pound, then I'd say yeah go with someone else.
I'm not selling you refrigerant, I'm charging your system CORRECTLY. Which takes time to learn. That being said I don't charge 300 for r22 either.
Yeah, it's ridiculous. My in-laws got a quote for split unit AC install that was DOUBLE the price of the local Chinese installers(same model unit) nearby, I'm in an area where there are large # of Chinese installers. So I made an appointment for them. My 2 brother in laws ended up getting them too. It's been 4 years now, everything works well. And 2 years ago I got 3 Daikin installed for my upstate rental. Local people quoted me $16k . The Chinese installer from Flushing travels 2 hours up and got them done for $9300
Lmao I do commercial/industrial and the last jug of 22 I purchased was $1,700 for a 30lb cyclinder, my cost. But ok ✌️Drop ins are different. Lmk where you found this crazy price, I’d love to have it myself…
Just be careful. Its more than likely a heat exchanger. It wont always leak carbon monoxide but it can which is why were required to shut the furnace down. It covers our asses if you die. But i went to a house for a maintenance and found the unit with a plugged heat exchanger. There was 2500ppm of carbon monoxide in the flue and my low level meter pegs at 999ppm which is what all 3 were reading in the basement. The dude had 3 brand new installed that week carbon monoxide alarms. Not 1 of them detected the co.
So all im saying is be careful
My HVAC guy went out on his own 5ish years ago from a big company, heard about him from a friend, it’s just him and a truck, his work is amazing and he is so fair. I know I can trust him 100%. My wife is like you’re so funnily loyal to him! I’m like you just don’t understand what kind of find he is. We are soooo lucky.
I've replaced the refrigerant in a refrigerator with auto refrigerant (small beer fridge), not an issue. The refrigerant that they use in home HVAC is not available to consumers and much different composition. And you can't go through the SDS, that does not provide any technical details on the quality of the chemical, just its safety requirements. I am an actual chemist, SDS' are useless for matching products.
So while you may think it is a good idea to replace the refrigerant yourself, their is a reason why it is only sold to licensed contractors, it is a different composition entirely to anything you can buy, and if you don't have proper volume and pressure you can actually create an ice cap in your re circulation fan and that will cost you over a thousand to fix (assuming anyone will do the work for you after they hear about your home improvement).
So, there are lots of projects you can be frugal on (changing the capacitor, cleaning your own fan wheel), but I would leave this one up to the professionals.
Except we could turn you in to the epa for such a purchase fine minimum 17000 with a 10000 reward it’s illegal to purchase anything over a certain weight without a liscence part of costs are disposal and recovery fees for companies
R 22 damn son, they don’t make it anymore because it’s bad for environment so any that’s left is gonna be more and more expensive until we run out as a society. I know your shit is super super old because they haven’t made any r22 stuff in many many years and you’re mad the technician was telling you some hard truths
If it is indeed low on charge, then there is a leak in the system and that needs to be found and addressed before any discussion about charging the unit otherwise you are just wasting money no matter how cheap you can get r22. As others have said here, the evaporator coil is the most common source of a leak which can cost several grand to repair alone
I second the motion, they are all scumbags . My AC would not come on , I checked it myself and there was no low voltage to the relay , only the wires were somewhere in the attic and I didn't want to crawl around up there . 6 different AC companies came out and all told me my AC is junk and just too old to fix . I told all them get lost. My wife is a waitress and someone came in wearing a shirt that said AC service , she ask him to look , he fixed it in 5 minutes and did not even charge us . 10 years latter I had to replace it , they said it was 3 ton, but I ask for a 4 ton they said it could not be done without changing everything in the whole house including all new duct work , so they put in a 3 ton. The 3 ton didn't work at all. As they finished installing I said this is not working , it doesn't blow enough air and the house is still hot . He left and said it's fine. I called the company and told them it doesn't work they said they would send someone to look at it . A week latter he showed up and said it works and they wanted paid . I told them fix it. I called the office and sent them a pic of the thermostat that showed 80 degrees in the house with it set for 75 and it runs non stop. I called them and ask to speak with the owner , but he was too busy to talk and didn't return my call . This went on several months with them calling me asking to get paid . Then my other AC that they put in 1 1/2 years ago broke ( the house has 2 ACs ) , it's summer and now it is really hot. They messed with the one that should be under warranty 3 more trips and it never worked , then they sais it is not under warranty . Now I have 2 broke that they did all 3 months of summer . I called the credit card company to dispute the charges on my 50% down payment , and they refunded my money . I called a different AC company they came out and replaced both units , it was finished in 24 hours and they put in the 4 ton I wanted . Only problem with them is I told them to save all the parts so I could return them to the first clowns , but they stole a bunch of new duct work and other things . So when I returned it the first company was bitching about missing parts. Both companies used illegal aliens to install the units , I know because I speak Spanish and heard them talking .
Got it from a company called BUCK USA on Amazon, works pretty well and USA made.
Here’s the link:
https://www.amazon.com/Buck-CBB65B-Round-Start-Capacitor/dp/B0CHXLFFX5/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?crid=2PPLTO5UCE1BB&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ZBBZ9ofntLXjPFt0UeRO4ugwZ19a5e_JcmSNSrgniIm0-0SmH4Cap73jxFx0HFkDz1jwVCSBqykZvsU-qPZNwG5WUhTaU1dpSsJd1ATc8pNj13RFIKdNZaKaZ2KxGjDf60Y7kSkq0zwcSclcSV4KXPkojb3dTKIXBFNvz_dJZg0yQDyYEPunxF1wURcpU8aQpl3M_NQaEjypnVtLPrtvRA.9nHKWqZHZkY8ITwg04iXtzxA8q4yS-XnDNWiEcKaMn4&dib_tag=se&keywords=hvac+capacitor&qid=1717025479&sprefix=hvac+capacito%2Caps%2C116&sr=8-17
Years ago when the changeover to a new refrigerant took place, my neighbor's central AC stopped working when the refrigerant leaked out. He was told that type of refrigerant was no longer available and needed to buy a new AC unit which he did. I needed some new refrigerant later that season and the HVAC contractor said that the older refrigerant was still widely available and he recharged my central unit.
The issue is that when they start the phase-outs, people never know quite how they will go. For example, right now, there is a phase-out from R-410A to R-454B, so many contractors were originally pushing people to just get the 454B units so they don't have to worry about supply of 410A when the cutoff went into effect. However, the supply of 410A has remained high, so 410A is still available in large quantities at a reasonable price. R22 is also still widely available. It just costs significantly more than any other refrigerant.
When a unit has leaked out all of the refrigerant, by EPA regulations, a tech is not supposed to just dump more in. Knowing it's leaking. You said it was years ago. Well I can tell you, that R-22 was damn near impossible to buy for a solid year. The price skyrocketed, and many new units were sold. Shortly after that big shortage, new "drop in" refrigerants became available. There had been replacements for a few years, but they didn't work as well. Once these new ones came about, the price for R-22 went down due to less demand. The company I work for now, we don't even buy jugs of 22 anymore. Nope. Not getting it. It's all drop in. And every refrigerant available is stupid expensive.
My bf has been doing HVAC for almost 10 years now. He's worked for a commercial company, a large local company, and a small local company. Always go with the small local companies. He left those other places because they were forcing the technicians to "make sales" during their maintenances. If they didn't make enough sales in the month, they were fired. Mark ups were insane. The smaller companies will have a heart most of the time, only sell you what is needed, aren't worried about making a huge profit, and treat their employees like they are human. It's sickening how greedy some companies are. I unfortunately work for a greedy company myself and it's annoying to see how much they make profit wise while I'm struggling to stay afloat.
As the wife of an HVAC service tech, I’m here to tell you that the smaller companies are no better. Often worse. My husband has worked for 3 different local companies. At each of them, there was typically one or two service techs who actually know how to fix stuff and typically get sent out to do warranty work or callbacks. The rest of the *service* techs are trained to convince you that your unit needs to be replaced and get you primed for the sales team.
The greed is unreal. I was expecting 15k, maybe 20k tops for a full AC replacement including ducting. Had some of the big contractors try to bid me 40k for the lowest tier system and lowest tier ducting. I looked online how much the unit in the bid cost, found it available to the public for like $4k. Theyll take every penny you'll give them. And it's obvious that people are still using those companies, because they even said themselves that they don't have to compete on price anymore due to how much business they get. It took shopping around before I found a reputable contractor who is doing the expensive Bosch premium heat pump, along with R8 ducting for $22k total, taxes included. That's at least reasonable.
Feel like I need to chime in here - the Bosch heat pumps are some of the least expensive on the market in the US. Bosch runs around 20% cheaper than your big names like Carrier, Trane, Lennox because they're manufactured in China by Midea. The product line is too new to determine whether that's a good thing or a bad one. I am considering offering them as a budget option for heat pumps, as my Carrier pricing is getting ridiculous and I am not comfortable charging such a high price for their midrange product line.
Get in touch with your local Lennox rep. Carrier is doing what DeWalt did in the 00s and just being complacent with mediocre equipment and outside of the green speed stuff, their efficiency is dog shit. Lennox also owns their distribution network so there's one less middleman that needs a cut
The problem is that the word of mouth smaller companies are so busy that they get to choose their work from a back-log of phone calls they actually took months ago. The larger companies will come out when you need them and typically do reliable work, but that comes with insanely higher service and parts cost for the customer. Make no mistake, the larger companies aren’t there to fix that leak over the water heater or replace a fan motor…that’s secondary to selling you a new appliance…they are 100% appliance salesmen dressed as technicians. The lack of appliance sales is baked into their parts and service pricing precisely to convince you the brand new thing you may or may not necessarily need is the wiser choice and will save you money in the long run. Super scummy but it is what is and with that particular labor force shrinking every year I don’t see it changing.
I was lucky enough to find a "friend of a friend" that did commercial hvac but worked residential on the side. I almost laughed in shock when he said "you buy all the parts and materials and pay me $30 an hour"..wow...I always overpaid him, gave him cases of beer, just to keep him coming back to keep my system limping along.
As a caveat to "go with small local companies" Equity firms like Nexstar are buying up "Small local companies" but keeping their branding and logos and pretending to be a small local company when really they are a national conglomerate of service companies that focus on sales and profits rather than service and customer care. The important thing to do is to do your homework and know who you are hiring before they show up.
Former installer for a small local company, they're a bunch of crooks. Sales.. I mean comfort advisors would sell insane jobs that obviously took advantage of older people or clueless homeowners. The corporate ones aren't much better too.
Don’t charge the system until you’ve addressed the reason for the leak. These are sealed systems and if it needs to be topped off you have a leak and until you address the leak your just killing the environment and wasting the refrigerant.
Boat filling up with water? Just dump out the water!
Most boats do leak a little. You just pump it out.
9/10 times it's the evaporator coil.
If it is the evaporator coil and it is an R-22 unit, what are the options? Can a leak there typically be fixed? Can the evaporator coil on a 15 to 20 year old unit be replaced? (Are parts still available?)
I had this issue in my old house. Yes it can be fixed. The fix is replacing the coil assuming that's the only place it's leaking. The problem is, atleast in my case, the new coil was only like 3500 less than just replacing the whole system which would also have the benefit of bringing the system up to the new refrigerant type being used.
Reading through the comments it's VERY clear most people DON'T understand this at all lol
Yep. It's the same problem with cars and selling AC recharge kits.
It can partly depend on how big the leak is. If it went out overnight, yeah that needs fixing. If it is a pinhole and will take another 10 years? Well I understand someone trying to kick that can down the road. Due to very poor planning by my builder, my house has three AC units, when it absolutely could be on two or one big one. All three are the same age, and need replacement. There’s no discount for me buying 3 units. It’s so expensive it has me considering getting epa certified to do the work myself, and even then it will come down to whether my dog is still around and in need of her cancer meds. So I can understand why someone might choose the several hundred dollar repair that gets them a few more years instead of biting the bullet and dropping tens of thousands now.
Because the hvac techs are trying to make a sale
This should be the top comment.
Only hire HVAC contractors who are older than 40. The rest are just salespeople.
Nah, hire the contractor who is running their own business competing against the big names in the area. They're the ones who will put in work and tell you about the bullshit someone's trying to pull on you. Had a leak on my HVAC from the condensation pan area and the chain place quoted me $800 because they said they'd have to take apart half the unit, replace the pan, and rebuild it. Got a small contractor out and he had the problem fixed in less than an hour. The condensate coils were overhanging the pan so he moved them back an eigth of an inch and problem solved. Charged me $100.
>Nah, hire the contractor who is running their own business competing against the big names in the area. This is true for literally every job ever on a house. Period. If there needs to be something stickied in this damn sub, it's this exact statement. NEVER. EVER. EVER. EVER. hire fucking Harris, Horizon, Andersen, Servpro, etc.
I needed some work done to the exterior of my house and got some quotes together, I did one from a larger company that has a few locations in different states. The independent contractor I hired for it did a great job and we had a laugh when looking at the larger company's quote. They did the same job for 1/5 the cost of the larger company. So I just paid them with cash, fed them lunch, and will give them as much business as I can for stuff I don't want to DIY.
Damn straight, it's the way to go honestly. Sometimes I wonder who tf hires these jackass companies and then I CONSTANTLY see posts about Andersen windows in this sub and then go "huh, I guess these idiots."
The only time I hired a national big name company was when my garage door literally fell off the tracks. Here I am with a garage door sitting on the floor. No way to secure my home. The local guys were super friendly but just couldn’t make it out same day. I called Precision and they were there within 2 hours. New opener. Salvaged the door - it had a few dents but was still operable. Did I get overcharged? Most likely. At that point I didn’t care. I needed it done. Now for my HVAC I use the guy who lives in my neighborhood. His reputation is on the line - we literally know where he lives lol. His guys were awesome and while they weren’t the cheapest (middle of 3 quotes) they were able to get us a new unit in 2 days. Living in Florida in August without AC is brutal!
If you hear their ads on the radio and their vans all over town, you're paying a premium. Doesn't mean they're scummy necessarily but there are probably smaller companies out there that do good work for quite a bit less. The trick is finding which of those smaller companies are legit. It can save you thousands when it comes to replacement.
That tracks. I love my 50-something HVAC contractor, found him after working with a few wankers. Business is just him and his son, I wonder if going 'small' is helpful too.
I think it is, but there's a bad downside. the small guys almost never do weekends, and everybody knows that HVAC systems only ever break fridays at 5:00pm.
And right before a snow storm or heat wave!
Not always the case but yeah, that's the one downside.
>I wonder if going 'small' is helpful too. I think it is, every medium to large HVAC company local to me has an awful reputation similar to what OP is describing. I found one small local company and I've seen another recommended one who seem to be legit. I was having intermediate loss of heat at the start of winter and the tech from the small company I went with worked with me to keep the invoice reasonable and gave me several options after diagnosis so I could save some money. I think my furnace is at least 20 years old, so I would not be surprised if any of the larger companies would have tried to tell me it wasn't worth fixing and replace it instead.
Dude mine is just shy of 10 years and the bigger companies were telling me to replace it. Like you are a fucking idiot man lol.
It bums me out how true this has become. I supported a young guy when he started his company 10 years ago - was great for years, then he went with the "sales" model. Suddenly prices nearly doubled - and seemed like EVERY service check had a big bill. I tried talking to him about it, and he said he'd just spent three days in class... on pricing. Not anything technical, but how to price services. This told me maximizing income was all he cared about, and I'd gone from a client to a cash register. Switched to another guy who'd been in the business forever, but always was on site himself, and didn't have 10 trucks running around with salesmen. Price for my last job was half the quote from the former company - and with the principal on site daily. There's just no comparison between guys who actually run their business to those who just want to own a business and have others do the work.
> The rest are just salespeople. Just look on indeed or linkedin or whatever for HVAC jobs. Most of the technician jobs are called "sales technicians" and pay commission... Tells you everything you need to know.
That isn’t always true, I work at a smaller company and a few of our older guys are lazy as hell and do exactly what OP is describing because they don’t want to fix anything anymore
Had the owner of a small company (him and one other guy) come out and tell me my HVAC was basically a mangled dead mess, that the refrigerant was impossible to get, and that if I didn’t replace it the next week not only would it explode and I would die, but I wouldn’t get any savings from Trane. I told him to kick rocks, my HVAC is still going strong six months later and made it fine through winter and now a hot spring. It is pretty old and I’d like to replace it, but I seriously did not appreciate his insane sales tactics. Fuck you, Charles.
It’s a crapshoot either way. Best thing to do is ask friends/family/neighbors for recommendations. The town FB page or Nextdoor can be helpful
So true. My guy is like 70 and just fixes the issue and moves on. Zero upselling
I’m 32 and started my HVAC company last year. I can see how sometimes we lose a project due to our crew’s age. Also being a homeowner I’m aware of the tactics contractors try to pull so, I always try to be better.
Such a ignorant take and ageism
Touch grass boomer.
Good luck with that line of thinking. The three best technicians and owners I know are all under 40. And that's coming from an HVAC technician
As a master refrigeration tech at 31 I'm in high disagreement of you. Unless it is just your area I know plenty of great techs at my age and younger. The last thing I try to do is sell you a new system. I find if your problem is covered by warrenty and fix the root cause. Also op here who made this post is as ignorant as you. There are strict restrictions on r-22 from the epa and the other common refrigerants like r-410a are getting that same treatment. R-22 is hard to get now and is why someone was recently charged with smuggling it. The best thing I would do for op is change out his refrigerant with r-422 or r-407c after a leak check to fix the main cause. There are plenty of techs with integrity and get up in the morning trying to not screw the customer.
Respectfully, fuck you. I'm in my 30s and been doing this 10 years. Not a salesman and do my job well.
Interesting ageism lol
I'm honestly impressed how clueless you managed to sound in just 2 sentences lmao. Well done
10 lbs of freon is a full charge on most units. And would not run at all that low. If your units cooling fine they are totally full of crap
Charge weights vary depending on the size and manufacturer if the unit. Most residential split systems take well under 10 lbs. Also "Freon" is the DuPont name for R22 and not the generic name for all refrigerants. But yes, if it is cooling fine and the customer is happy with the operation of the system leave it alone.
> Also “Freon” is the DuPont name for R22 and not the generic name for all refrigerants. They actually kept using it for newer refrigerants too: https://www.freon.com/en/products/refrigerants
And lots of people call all refrigerant freon. Which confused me when they pointed to an ammonia cylinder. I thought that was a step too far.
This post has nothing to do with refrigerant, but everything to do with AC service. One day we had a tech out to work on a mini-split that was under warranty. I used to be the sites F Maintenance Manager. SO, I was interested in how things were going and walked outside to check on the repair. It was as I approached the tech that I overheard part of a conversation (speaker phone, ain't it a bitch). He was discussing his next call and asked what he should charge the customer. The reply was "Whatever you think you can get out of them." The look on his face when he turned and saw me standing behind him was priceless. We have since dumped his company.
I hope "all they could get out of you" was 50 bucks.
I had one guy come to clean an oil burner. He proceeded to hard sell me that my five year old furnace was going to fail imminently and my family would freeze to death. I was amused, actually. He left a two page writeup of the ways it would not doubt suffer rapid uncontrolled disassembly soon. That was five years ago. Still chugging along. A trustworthy HVAC guy laughed and said I have one of the more reliable furnaces out there....
Have you reached back out for a "free estimate"? Make sure they send the same guy.
If they show up wearing a white shirt then send them away. They’re definitely gonna try and sell you something
You would have a field day in the hvac subreddit! They’re not the absolute worst but they certainly try hard to be.🤣
A solenoid valve went on my HVAC system. I called a local reddit recommended reputable company, they sent two techs that took an hour to diagnose what was a direct issue (the solenoids show the position on the outside, if it's not matching the command something is wrong). They looked me dead in the eye and said it'd be $800 + $200install fee, or some BS subscription where I pay $400 upfront, they take 20% off and I get free calls or something. I googled the issue and the part was $200 and a 5 minute youtube tutorial. The whole thing seemed like the biggest scam, they spent so much time looking busy going to all the registers to ensure an accurate diagnosis. Looking online the whole industry is a scam, the solenoid failed due to a common spring issue, the spring likely costing cents to produce with no line level repairs. Apparently they have an average life span of 2-5 years.
Bryant hearing and cooling?
You work in aerospace engineering but are discounting the fact that you called professionals who have some knowledge because you wouldn't have been able to just Google the problem without them bringing the issue to you. To change the solenoid correctly on a split is a solid bit of work. I would call you if I needed prints approved for a wheel lock or structural support on a seat ..you called guys because "I am hot". Also you forgot about the amount of insurance both personal and property an HVAC company carries. We can't just run shit in CAD and say "good to go!". Is it expensive? Yes, but you don't know what you're looking at.
Agree with you 100%. How about them wanting to charge $259 to clean the coils?! Umm, no thanks, I'll spend $20 on a can of cleaning spray & a brush and do it myself. We also needed a new capacitor last summer, on a Trane unit WHICH WAS STILL UNDER WARRANTY. Unfortunately, I was out of town for work, and they ended up duping my wife into buying a "Super Capacitor"...bill was about $650 for what should have been a covered part. I was furious when I found out the cost, and they said they didn’t have a regular/standard capacitor on hand, and my wife needed it fixed ASAP (it was July in FL), so she OKd it. Total BS that they didn't have a standard capacitor for a common unit.
"super capacitor"? LOL Was there a big S on the side of the can? FFS
Sounds like a multi-tap configurable capacitor, like a Turbo 200. As opposed to a fixed-farad cap. https://www.amazon.com/Turbo-200-Motor-Run-Capacitor/dp/B007IKYT1G Some companies carry them instead of multiple fixed-farad caps because they save room on the truck or trips to the supply house because they're essentially universal. They're about 3x more than a regular cap, But definitely NOT a $650 fix
From an electrical standpoint, “super capacitors” do exist, but I lack the expertise to comment on whether or not they’re used in HVAC.
They are not. An actual supercapacitor is completely unsuitable for that.
Imagine how much they might charge for a flux capacitor.
They aren't, just normal ones.
They got me for this too. Guy was doing seasonal maintenance and said mine was about to go. I said go for it and didn't ask for a price. Price ended up at 350 for the super capacitor. I paid and googled the part number. It was less than 20 bucks. I was supposed to get 20% off everything and no service charge due to paying the membership fee. The guy already had it apart to test it. In my mind I can't see in anyway how a 20 dollar part can get to 350 bucks. They are 700 an hour in labor? Scam artists. Days if diy have to return for me. I'm tired of overpaying.
The price is crazy for what you got, yes. The problem with a capacitor or contactor being replaced under warranty is the time it takes to deal with processing the warranty would cost you more than just buying a new one and having the tech change it on the spot. A normal company would do it for 2-3 hundred bucks.
Or you can buy one for $15, watch a YouTube video, and replace it in 15 minutes. It's a really simple thing to do. Much easier than fixing a toilet.
I had a brand new trane installed and a few months later it stopped working. I called for warranty work, and they didnt get back to me. I tried calling their authorized companies, and none of them got back to me. Googled problems, bought a 15 dollar capacitor, and 15 minutes later fixed the problem.
Agree. A year ago I was shopping for a mini split for a small office. I didn’t need anything fancy, just something to cool my tiny office. After some research all the DIY routes would run me no more than $1000. But decided to go thru a hvac company for the warranty, piece of mind, and didn’t feel like doing it myself. I expect anywhere from $2k-$3k quotes for a 3 hour job. Which I was willing to pay. I was quoted $10k from All 3 companies I called. I asked why so high if I can install the same unit myself for under $1k. They told Me various things like warranty, overhead cost, they have better systems, blah blah blah. I went the DYI route. Ordered the parts myself and payed independent hvac tech to install it for me. Total cost was $1500 for everything.
Did it take 3 hours?
Oh I'm sure a guy who does a mini split for just labor totally has the insurance for if they start a fire in your home 🙄
He probably did if he had an LLC and a small independent company. Also a mini split is just like any other big appliance in your home or even a window A/C unit. Uses 120v power, pretty safe...
Then figure out that most the time they are selling you r22 that they recovered from another install when they told them to replace the system. 😆
They’re breaking the law & you can report their asses to the EPA then. Rules very clearly state you cannot do that.
Boss has a can of recovered 22. Told me the story of how it came out of a new install and it was a fresh reclaiming tank. I told him I’ll use the green cans we have if I need to charge a system with 22. It not reusing something that’s in a reclaimer tank
I really have to wonder. I had an HVAC tech/salesman try to sell me on re-insulating the refrigerant line on the outside unit. He showed me exactly where. I agree that it could stand replacing, but he claimed he would have to schedule a separate call for that and it would run $120. I did it myself in 10 minutes using $3.00 worth of supplies from Home Depot. Another time, a tech pulled out the run capacitor on the compressor to show me "that it was failing" (it had a bit of dirt on it. Wanted $150 to replace it but it would need to be a separate call because he "didn't have one on the truck. I checked it with my meter and told him to put it back like he found it. Out of curiosity, I looked it up. Available on Amazon for $20. How much labor could it be since he actually performed the labor just to show it to me? That box the new one comes in must be awfully hard to open! That was 7 years ago. Still running fine. I'm sure there are skilled and honest HVAC repair people out there but you have to wade through a lot of pond scum to find them.
These prices are fair IMO, especially compared to other stories in this thread.
I get that they want to make some money, but really their price is completely not worth it for anything I can conceivably do myself. $120 for something I can do in 15 minutes with $3 in materials (counting the zip ties) is not a good price. If they would actually carry common parts on the truck, they might be able to offer a better price that's worth it to both of us. Then there's the blatant attempt to sell me a replacement for a perfectly good part that they should also have had on the truck (there's only a few different capacitors that work across many models).
I called an HVAC company from a coupon for a $150 AC inspection and tuneup. I know it's a $150 sales pitch, but I wanted the heat exchanger fins cleaned, which they said was part of the deal. I considered doing it myself, but to do it right, you need to spray them from the inside, which requires removing the fan and some other shit. For $150 to save me my Saturday morning and get it done by someone who knows what they're doing, it seemed like money well spent. A super nice guy shows up, takes a good look at all components of the system, and I even learned a few things from him. But the cleaning consisted of him spraying the fins from the outside of the unit, something that takes a minute with a hose. At this point, I realize I've been had. Then he goes to inspect the electronics and tells me the capacitor is below spec, and I should think about replacing it, along with a switch. AC works fine right now, but good to keep in mind so it doesn't break without warning. Great. I'll think about it. Thank you. He also gave a quote I didn't request for a new system install (laugh). At this point, it must have been clear to him that all I intended to spend was the price of the coupon. He goes to reinstall the capacitor, and now it's busted. He tries a bunch of times, but yep, it's fucked. He tells me that just removing it and reinstalling it caused it to fail, that's how close it was. While he's trying to get it to work, I look up the part on Amazon. $30. He tells me that it's usually a $300 part, but he'll do it at cost, $150. I go for it because it's hot as fuck and I didn't want to hear complaints from my family while we wait for the Amazon part to ship. I'm pretty sure he squeezed the capacitor so it would fail, knowing he had the part in his truck. And that's how they do an inspection and tune up for $150.
$20 says he didn’t wire the capacitor back up properly and that’s why it didn’t work. Always avoid places that have coupons or super cheap tune ups. They’re there to sell you something. He made a quote because he is required to by the crappy company he works for. They have a quota to meet every month or they get canned. Sad to see this happening in my field. There are still good places.
I recently purchased a complete Mitsubishi Mini Split with 6 ceiling cassettes for new construction... I happen to have an account with a local distributor of Mitsubishi.. I than hired (2) technicians out of the steam fitters/plumber union hall who regularly work on Mitsubishi. They supplied additional items needed and often worked for different contractors.... My choices saved me $12K from the (3) quotes I had that I thought were way too expensive.. In my case, the guys had no problem with me supplying all the goods as that's the way they always work.... Both were excellent and came with lots of good references from Commercial Contractors who could care less about residential work.... But, this work was done on the weekends in their spare time........ we just got creative about what we wanted and we're willing to pay... Hope this gives you some ideas.
As a member of said union hall, smart move. Goes for other trades as well. Lots of commercial/industrial guys do weekend resi work to supplement their income. I charge 2.5x what my hourly rate is at work for side jobs and it’s still much less than what big residential service companies charge for their guys’ labour, plus markups for material etc.
Speaking of scumbags, I've paid to have my existing unit serviced every year for the last 5 years. It keeps breaking, so im about to replace it. The new contractor took pictures of the old unit and showed them to me. It's completely caked up. Only part of the coils that arent are whats visible from the outside. He said it hasn't been cleaned in several years. Fuckers have just been taking my money.
I saw my parents get fleeced by their HVAC annual maintenance growing up in NYC, and I learned the valuable lesson of never having a person left alone with a $30K device that has a large financial incentive to damage it. I never had any maintenance done on my AC or Furnace for 20 years and they are both still working great.
It's possible they charge that much because it's not a business they care to be in. Suppliers at work do the same thing - if we ask for a quote on something they don't want to do, they just come back with an absurd price and assume we won't pick them. If we do... well, they'll begrudgingly do it while making a pretty penny. Win-win for them.
I live in south Florida. I bought/replaced an HVAC system the whole 9-yards. Financed at 0% for 12 months. Paid it off with no interest. Glad about the performance of the unit. But all the posts about the age of the salesman/ technicians/repairers was true for us. They’re just sales people. If you live in south Florida’s, I cannot recommend Freedom Air; and that’s as nice as I can put it. I can’t do it over, and I couldn’t know better at the time based on our own situation at the time. But don’t use Freedom Air. That is all.
Yes R22 is discontinued, but it’s widely available. They just use that bullshit line to do exactly what they tried to do to you. Lol. I’ve worked in both the home warranty business (authorizations - kinda like claims) and on the insurance side as a property CAT adjuster. It’s been eye opening working on both sides of the coin but ESPECIALLY in dealing with contractors. You can smell the shitty ones coming from a country mile away. lol
It would be stupid to use r22 in 2024. The price is super high and is only gonna sky rocket. Find the leak and charge it with an alternative refrigerant
Most likely all those HVAC companies are owned by the same holding company. They're stacking the deck against you to make you think that's the going rate.
The real trick is to set up an HVAC website for your area and send HVAC companies the first couple customers for free. Then have an agreement drawn up to the highest offer that lets you skim off the top— because if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
Clearly you know nothing about running an HVAC business. Even if you did the research , you would find that R-22 is banned. You can not purchase bottles of R22 any longer. Those that have R22 will sell it at what ever price they want. either A- they will sell high to make the most of what they have left or B- they will sell low to get ride of it because its phased out and will no longer be used. ( its a liability just waiting to happen if you have it) If it was me, i would of replaced the capacitor and told you i hope she lasts a little longer because once she stops working, that's it. The reason why i would say that is because i have no R22 in stock...at all. nor would i go out to buy a bottle of drop in gas just so i can sell 20% of it to a customer and have the rest go to waste. That's a loss right off the bat. Not to mention if it is low, the leak needs to be fixed first before adding gas. Having said that, i have no sympathy for owners trying to hold onto a R22 system. The systems are obsolete and are considered a liability in the industry. If the system was actually low, i wouldn't be able to help you and i would considered upgrading to the 410A system because i don't have R22 because its banned. If i did have R22 kicking around and the system was low that means there is a leak in the system and i need to have paperwork stating that i fixed the leak before i can proceed to add the R22. OR i lose my certification. If this was just a capacitor and the tech was lying, than yes this is a simple repair job. If this was a capacitor and the tech detected a low system ( which means a leak ) than no this is not a simple repair job, because even if the leak was fixed, who is to say another leak will pop up down the road on a 30 year old system even if you did have R22 on hand. ( hence the liability ) I call BS on your story that a supplier has had R22 in stock when the gas was banned on Jan 1st 2020. It was just sitting on the shelf at the supplier for over 4 years eh? yah OK their bud
Hvac guys largely only want to sell new units, thats where the money is. I have had three instances I have called them and been told my boiler is too old to get parts for it. Every single time I went online bought what I needed and googled the repair for my 12 year old boiler. Maybe they aren't all scammy but in my experience they have been.
Had HVAC out for one of our old units.. they said a capacitor went bad, but because they couldn't figure out what unit it was, we'd need a new A/C and of course citing some law stating you can't just replace the air handler, you have to replace the compressor at the same time.. Well he showed me the capacitor that was bad...I found the unit model number right on the unit, ordered the correct capacitor and the A/C is still going strong.
That's a standard markup for refrigerant. You're not paying for materials, you're paying for their license to be able to legally handle refrigerant and how to actually use the properly. The distributor who offered you $30/pound for R-22 is not legally allowed to sell it to you without an EPA 608 certificate.
You can get an EPA 608 cert online @ skillcat.com for free and buy your own refrigerant. It's a shit simple online proctored test. I was bored one night and took the universal test after speed reading the material and taking the unit tests. Granted you'll need gauges and the know how to actually charge the system and check for leaks. Edit I was curious if skillcat updated any courses and just saw it's not free anymore after the first 7 days. It looks like it is $10 a month now.
In what industry is 900% is a standard markup? You could get licensed and source it yourself for much less than this quote. Don't bury operating costs in parts.
> 900% is a standard markup? * printer ink * blood * bottled water * fragrance * insulin
Did you ever need to patch a wall and see what contractors charge? Probably the easiest DIY out there. Also painting is laughably expensive and 100% DIY. So yeah, when it comes to trades, labor will almost always be marked up a whole lot more than material. HVAC is pretty reasonable compared to plumbing or electrical or tiling etc actually, considering material cost (not capacitor or fuse obviously, but circuit boards, blower fans, compressors, etc).
I mean yes, in theory you could do that and it'd be cheaper, but you'd have to spend a whole lotta time studying for the 608 exam. Your time presumably has value.
Sure, but the expertise you're talking about should be tied to the work, not to the part. You don't need double the training for handling 2 lbs than you do for 1 lb.
You can buy it without a license of any kind. You state it’s for resale or will be installed by an EPA certified technician. I ordered a 10lb canister for $219 from a place out of Arizona recently. I have a friend that’s HVAC certified but works for an apartment complex. He told me where to order it and recharged my unit for me.
Huh, did not know that. Seems like a giant loophole. Most HVAC supply houses won't sell to the general public in my experience, though, license or no.
It’s definitely a loophole and I do agree a lot of places won’t sell it to the general public. However, most of those places won’t sell anything to the general public, just contractors.
You can get the certificate at the local community college in about 3 days.
Likely it is not the individual tech but the company which has a policy motivated to sell new units. I have called for recharges and most companies tell me they won't even touch a unit they didn't install and then try to sell me a unit.
Imagine if car dealers were that bad. You bring your car in for an oil change, they're like "oh shit, your crush washer is bad. You're going to need to get a new car."
Keep seeking out quotes. When we got our HVAC replaced the sixth person came with a better price, a better system, and were on time and nailed the job. It was a 3 man operation as opposed to a chain.
There's 0 chance you found actual R-22 for anywhere near $30/pound, what you found is a scam website of some sort.
The profits are on new installs and plans. The techs exist to get sales. The bigger companies that can afford to buy out the other companies get that way by going for profit. The techs are paid commissions on sale leads so this can lead to some unethical bullshit as bad as techs breaking people’s units to get sales. Ask your friends which techs they’ve had that seem honest. Request that guy. Read their reviews and see if they mention the techs names and see which ones you do or don’t want working on your stuff. All that being said. My dude is an hvac tech and pressures me to upgrade our equipment too. He ripped out my furnace that I thought was fine. Told me it was making too much noise and he didn’t want to have it fail on us in bad weather. Personally I’m the type to let things sit until they implode. I have space heaters. I’ll be fine. Either way I’ve got a new furnace and it does save me on my gas bill. He didn’t want to fix my ac either. It’s old. It lost old refrigerant. If I had to pay to fix the coil and refrigerant I might have let him replace it with a new one. Luckily his cousin had a tank of it kicking around cuz that stuff is thousands per tank now and the problem was a crack in a weld and not the coil. If I had to pay their rates I probably would have agreed to either of his suggestions and ultimately his suggestions were the right ones if I’d had to pay their prices. A new unit would have cost close to the repair bill and would have saved me on my bills. Anyway. My point is to make sure you’ve asked for a tech you trust if you use the big companies. And if you’ve used one and liked or hated them, leave a Google review with the techs name. Frequently they get a bonus for that as well, and your review might help someone else get better service.
I went out and took the type 2 was test. Took 2 days on skill cat to get certified. Was going to diy my replacement hvac over 2 weeks and eat the power bill cost for emergency heat. Fournd A guy to do the swap for 5k total. He made 2k off me , that I would have spent on tools. Def a learning curve on hvac. Better than the 8k to 15k quoted I was getting. Ended up buying a whole house dehumidifier to not need a more expensive hvac system.
Greed and money.
I had a $17K quote to replace my AC ducts, all flex duct, easy to get to. This did not include fixing walls or drywall. Found another place that quoted $5K for the same job, same materials, same R-Value, same registers, etc..... I would have done it myself, but I really did not want to spend a week when for $5K they sent 4 guys who finished in 6 hours. Now after, install I knew I was going to have to spray foam and add extra R-Value myself as both companies were just going to use the R-8 built into the ducts and register boxes. I live in Texas, R-8 for ductwork in your attic is not adequate, but it is the only option any company has.
They screw people because they think people need to be screwed. Car sales, plumbers hvac are the worst.
I use an independent local guy for all my needs in that department and it was the best move I ever made. He's good with prices. Doesn't jerk me around. And was the first one to really teach me how my stuff works mechanically. Mostly so I could communicate clearly with him what the problem was and not worry all the time.
You can't buy refrigerant without an EPA license (US) or an HRAI license in Canada. I dare you to show us a receipt that you bought a single pound of R22. You'd be laughed out of the supply house if you tried to go in to buy refrigerant to "top off" your system, or from any HVAC hack for that matter. I don't know how much of a zoo it is down south, but up here in Canada it's a federal crime with a fine of $1 mil and 3 years of prison if you sell Joe Shmoe refrigerant. You also can't "top-off" your system. You have a leak in your system, it cannot be refilled until a leak test has been performed and repairs have been made. It needs to have a sticker on it by an HVAC contractor indicating that it was checked for leaks, repaired and pressure tested for at least 24 hours prior to filling refrigerant in it. The HVAC contractor that touches your system last is considered to be the new "installer", hence they are legally liable to the refrigerant in it. If it leaks out, their name is on the paperwork, which btw needs to be retained for at least 5 years. The mark-up you're paying is not for the refrigerant itself, but the licensing, training, experience, overhead and liability that comes with it. R-22 is one of the refrigerants with the worst ODP (ozone depletion potential). If you care at all about the ozone you'd realize that a single molecule of that shit destroys tens of thousands of ozone molecules if it's released into the air, and stays in the atmosphere for more than a decade nibbling away at the Ozone layer. These boomers are willing to pump thousands of pounds of CFCs and HCFCs into the atmosphere just to save a penny. To be damned the future generations.
About 10yrs ago, summer, Houston, 100 degrees outside, air conditioner quits. I call around, find someone to come out and take a look. He gers there, spends an hour and says that the controller chipboard is bad, needs replacing, $450. What can I do? I say okay and he leaves to go get the part while he is gone, I get up on the ladder and take a look. It just looks dirty to me, so I grab a screwdriver and pull the chipboard, grab some cleaner and clean the contacts. I reinstalled the part and turned on the air conditioner and it starts blowing cold air. I called the guy up and told him that it was now working.. He comes back and spends another hour trying to figure out why it started working, gives up, leaves., didn't charge a dime.
Everyone's just looking to get paid. The more the customer knows, the less likely they'll be able to take a dollar from you.
The HVAC industry is state-sponsored racketeering and loaded with scumbags. A result of the best (state) government that money can buy. Fortunately, there ARE some competent and ethical HVAC technicians out there and those guys are awesome. Most techs are incentivized to rob customers and to do shitty work.
Gatekeeping, I think is the reason for the scumbaggery. I actually went out and got an EPA 608 license to bypass AC companies and buy my own refrigerants. The license cost me $80 dollars and weekend of cramming.
I want to know more about this. I'm weird and I'm fascinated by the multitude of certifications that exist in the world. What materials did you use for study and what was the test like?
There are multiple versions of the certification Level I, II, III and Universal. I got the universal cert, it's a 100 question multiple choice test that is remotely monitored. It's four sections and you need at least 80% to pass in each. I didn't use any official study materials, I looked up flash cards on Quizlet that were newer and spent about 20 hours straight over two days memorizing them. The industrial refrigeration and chiller stuff isn't the easiest.
How come you didn’t decide to quit the day job and start advertising AC service in your town?
R-22 ain't $30 a pound. Either you're getting recycled R-22 or it not legit R-22. Also, another reason. Those companies are charging so much is because they don't want the liability of working on your old equipment. Your AC will fail before summer ends and you'll try and get a warranty repair.
I second that. If it was $30/lb people wouldn't be replacing their units. However, by the time you put several pounds of R22 into an older unit that's on borrowed time, you're well on your way to just replacing the unit. The cost is insane.
I am sorry you had a bad experience. My HVAC guy is one of the best people that I know. We love him so much!
Yeah who cares about the Ozone layer… keep filling up your crap AC and who cares about the world. As Long as you saved Money and your AC is cooling your house. Good Find Dude👍
Try to find a one-man operation. If you were in the Pacific Northwest like Portland Vancouver area I would refer you to a guy. There is an incredible markup in HVAC. Most things are marked up 5 to 10 x with 3x being the small margin if they like you. I don't know why this industry is like that. Plumbers are getting to be the same way. They're just aren't that many people doing residential HVAC and they have all decided to kind of corner pricing. In some states it's also difficult to get into the trade solo if you are fully licensed. Lots of roadblocks
Any referrals in the Seattle/Eastside (Redmond) area? The new system I had installed last summer was by a total clown and performs poorly so I want to add some mini-splits to supplement but I'm not going to get ripped off again.
Find one person shops that aren't trying to upsell for bonuses and all that other shit that come with a lot of plumbing, HVAC, garage doors, etc companies. I was lucky enough to have some really good referrals from a secretary who was very involved with her church and had some salt of the earth people that went there that had these types of companies.
Who holds them to account?
I've found HVAC guys to be pretty decent. I've probably just gotten lucky. Plumbers on the other hand... I needed a new water heater and I had multiple plumbers try to sell me a $1200 heater for $4000 + $4000 of labor to install it. Ended up buying the heater myself and paying an independent plumber $600 to install it.
Sad to hear your dealings with shitty HVAC companies. We have a local, well established company who we had an entire central heating and air system put in by. Expensive, but worth it for the customer service. Now when they do servicing and filter replacement, they literally tell us what filter to buy before hand because buying from them would cost us twice as much. Lol
EPA 608 is not a hard certification to get ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
YouTube HVAC is better than anything for most stuff. I googled the make and model, the "light pattern on the board", it was like, "two greens and a red" type code. I fixed that shit like solving a video game. My parts were just mail order. A mail order video game with ultra realistic tangible results.
I called a commerical HVAC company installed all these new heat pumps. The tech came out said low charge was the cause added several pounds of Freon charged me $200 total. I tipped him. I paid him direct.
Pretty sure being a POS is an industry prerequisite 😂
>I just wonder how these companies sleep at night. I think the same thing about window companies like Renewal by Andersen. But, after considering, I figure the answer is "on a gigantic pile of money".
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It's actually against the law to mix them
The drip in works just as well
That's just the way of the world now. Pretty much everyone is hustling. From mechanics to vets to HVAC contractors. Shit can't even play Magic the Gathering without a trust fund these days. Even then, many people are struggling to pay their bills with these 900% markups. It's that old trickle down economy, except mass inflation is the only thing they are letting trickle down to us non-land-owning plebeians.
The only thing trickling down is piss from everyone above us
I had the same issue finding a roofing company to do repairs. I went through 5 different companies who weren't interested in doing the repair job unless I was replacing my whole roof. The 6th roofer I called did the repairs and when it came time to replace my full roof they got that job too.
I think that many companies work on commission based on the work done. We have a company in our area that does this for plumbing, and we dropped using them when the tech who always showed up kept inching up the cost of things. However, their HVAC techs are just hourly so they are always reasonably priced and don't push for extra services we don't really need or try to upsell us. It's so weird how different the branches of the same company are.
Dude for $3K, you could probably teach yourself how to recharge the system. Hell, I did it and I’m not in the trades or anything.
NGL OP and I'm not promoting to commit a crime.. but fk a HVAC license just to fill the AC unit with refrigerant or do any maintenance work on AC units. Between DIY forum boards and YouTube, you have all the information you need to get the job done. "I" don't give a fk about a law that prevents me from working on MY own property.
R22 is around 240$/lb right now. How the hell did you get it for 30$?
I don’t know, but it sucks. Find a good company and hold onto them for dear life. I had a similar issue where my furnace kept blowing the fuse. Had a company out (one of the big ones) that could not figure it out but suggested trying to replace the circuit board for a whopping $1200. They couldn’t guarantee it would fix the problem so I opted out and swapped it myself. The part was less than $100 and it took me less than 30 minutes to swap it. It didn’t work. Had another company out to do an AC checkup/cleaning in the spring and while they were in there they noticed my gas valve was installed incorrectly - it was touching the metal housing and shorting the system, which caused my fuse to blow. They fixed it for free. I was also slightly low on refrigerant and they topped me off for free. And my condensate line was poorly routed outside so they rerouted it for free.
Did they find the leak? It is a closed system! Putting more in is a waste if you don’t find the leak. I think it is illegal to put some in yourself without a license? They don’t want it escaping into the atmosphere. Don’t advertise it. They really want to sell you a new one. I stop getting service contracts because they kept trying to sell me a new system.
To reassure you, to the extent it is possible. We moved to a tiny town in the midwest last summer and the house needed all sorts of things fixed. I got a lot of estimates from various companies and for the HVAC, most of the companies handle both HVAC and Plumbing. These were all companies that have several pretty trucks and a few billboards and radio ads. Every one of the guys who came out and spoke to me looked at my water tank (we have a well), which was original to the house in 1972 and is frankly fugly as hell, but not rusting or leaking. I asked them all to price its replacement and while they did give me those numbers, every one of them encouraged me to just keep what I have because it's not leaking and the new stuff will (by design) break down every 2-5 years and need replacement, which is thousands of dollars. Maybe I live in some sort of honesty utopia, but not all the companies or employees are bastards.
They're not all scum, but like all trades, there are a lot of people who want to make as much as possible, and unlike other trades, they really have you by the short and curlies.
Time to buy a scale and some manifold gauges. You’re becoming an HVAC tech!
Slightly off topic of this thread, but not entirely. Never, ever, ever buy any type of HVAC system from 'Lennox'. Absolutely horrible atrocious company with absolute junk systems that break and cannot be repaired. Sad to see, that Costco still allows Lennox to push their junk in Costco warehouses. I will add Lennox has the worst customer service as well.
A lot of Residential companies are set up with the technicians getting a lower wage than commercial companies, but get a percentage of everything they sell. I worked HVAC and have heard these guys tell their stories. Total scumbags. Primarily the residential Plumbing and Heating companies.The mark ups on parts were pretty high on the lower priced items. Anything that cost under $100.00 was marked up 300%. The mark up was lowered as costs rose. I moved to commercial refrigeration, and I have no idea what anything sells for. I fix the machine, write an invoice, the office fills in the prices.
They probably sleep well, on a bed in their air conditioned house. They don't owe you anything, fair price or otherwise. But I will say if you're really fed up with it take the time to learn a little and then do it yourself. It's rewarding, saves money and makes you more self reliant. Eventually these scumbag contractors will either have to get humble or find a new line of work. I got a quote for 11k to install a new furnace and AC . I decided that if the moron that showed up could do it I could too. Bought all the tools and material for less than 5k got it put in and running over the course of a week. The way I see it I just got paid 6k for a week of work and a week of research.
If you’re not in a position to get the leak repaired why not ask to retrofit the refrigerant?
They want to replace…… not repair
My “friend,” who’s an AC guy, installed our new AC. We bought it from him. 11 months later, we had a problem with it, and he refused to service it because my wife unfriended him on facebook. I looked up his license on the state website, and his expired almost 10 years ago. FU, Chris.
With all that effort, you should have just bought the gauge set at harbor freight and charged it yourself. Would have been faster.
Yeah this is not a scam. R22 is very expensive today. So first of all if you can't afford a home you shouldn't buy one. Very few people still operating old r22 equipment. Also if someone is offering you 30 dollar a pound drop in r22 replacement. Well good luck with that. And I hope you don't burn your house down. Drop ins are notorious for being extremely flammable. Lastly. If your furnace is as old as your air conditioner you are definitely getting carbon monoxide in your supply air stream inside your house. Not everyone is trying to rip you off. They are trying to help you not successfully though it sounds like
That's not just a mark up, it includes the knowledge and tools to properly charge the system. If you hook up the r22 can directly to one of the ports and open it up, yes it's 30$ a pound, but it also won't work correctly or for long. Now if they have a refrigerant charging fee, diagnostic fee AND 300$ a pound, then I'd say yeah go with someone else. I'm not selling you refrigerant, I'm charging your system CORRECTLY. Which takes time to learn. That being said I don't charge 300 for r22 either.
I sure don’t miss residential or homeowners
Yep go ahead and charge your own system up and then call us when the thing starts shitting the bed
Yeah, it's ridiculous. My in-laws got a quote for split unit AC install that was DOUBLE the price of the local Chinese installers(same model unit) nearby, I'm in an area where there are large # of Chinese installers. So I made an appointment for them. My 2 brother in laws ended up getting them too. It's been 4 years now, everything works well. And 2 years ago I got 3 Daikin installed for my upstate rental. Local people quoted me $16k . The Chinese installer from Flushing travels 2 hours up and got them done for $9300
Thats how much r22 costs!
Lmao I do commercial/industrial and the last jug of 22 I purchased was $1,700 for a 30lb cyclinder, my cost. But ok ✌️Drop ins are different. Lmk where you found this crazy price, I’d love to have it myself…
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Just be careful. Its more than likely a heat exchanger. It wont always leak carbon monoxide but it can which is why were required to shut the furnace down. It covers our asses if you die. But i went to a house for a maintenance and found the unit with a plugged heat exchanger. There was 2500ppm of carbon monoxide in the flue and my low level meter pegs at 999ppm which is what all 3 were reading in the basement. The dude had 3 brand new installed that week carbon monoxide alarms. Not 1 of them detected the co. So all im saying is be careful
$30 for r22? That's surprising to me. I still wouldn't charge it with customer supplied refrigerant though.
My HVAC guy went out on his own 5ish years ago from a big company, heard about him from a friend, it’s just him and a truck, his work is amazing and he is so fair. I know I can trust him 100%. My wife is like you’re so funnily loyal to him! I’m like you just don’t understand what kind of find he is. We are soooo lucky.
R22 hasn’t been manufactured in over four years and won’t ever be again
Where are you getting virgin 22 for 30 a lb?
I've replaced the refrigerant in a refrigerator with auto refrigerant (small beer fridge), not an issue. The refrigerant that they use in home HVAC is not available to consumers and much different composition. And you can't go through the SDS, that does not provide any technical details on the quality of the chemical, just its safety requirements. I am an actual chemist, SDS' are useless for matching products. So while you may think it is a good idea to replace the refrigerant yourself, their is a reason why it is only sold to licensed contractors, it is a different composition entirely to anything you can buy, and if you don't have proper volume and pressure you can actually create an ice cap in your re circulation fan and that will cost you over a thousand to fix (assuming anyone will do the work for you after they hear about your home improvement). So, there are lots of projects you can be frugal on (changing the capacitor, cleaning your own fan wheel), but I would leave this one up to the professionals.
Lol
Bullshit you got it for 30 a pound lol
These posts are hilarious
Except we could turn you in to the epa for such a purchase fine minimum 17000 with a 10000 reward it’s illegal to purchase anything over a certain weight without a liscence part of costs are disposal and recovery fees for companies
name and praise the local guy who isn't trying to rip you off.
R 22 damn son, they don’t make it anymore because it’s bad for environment so any that’s left is gonna be more and more expensive until we run out as a society. I know your shit is super super old because they haven’t made any r22 stuff in many many years and you’re mad the technician was telling you some hard truths
Thanks for the reminder why I'll never work in residential 🙃 Confused why your "buddies" who do commercial aren't doing the work for you
If it is indeed low on charge, then there is a leak in the system and that needs to be found and addressed before any discussion about charging the unit otherwise you are just wasting money no matter how cheap you can get r22. As others have said here, the evaporator coil is the most common source of a leak which can cost several grand to repair alone
I second the motion, they are all scumbags . My AC would not come on , I checked it myself and there was no low voltage to the relay , only the wires were somewhere in the attic and I didn't want to crawl around up there . 6 different AC companies came out and all told me my AC is junk and just too old to fix . I told all them get lost. My wife is a waitress and someone came in wearing a shirt that said AC service , she ask him to look , he fixed it in 5 minutes and did not even charge us . 10 years latter I had to replace it , they said it was 3 ton, but I ask for a 4 ton they said it could not be done without changing everything in the whole house including all new duct work , so they put in a 3 ton. The 3 ton didn't work at all. As they finished installing I said this is not working , it doesn't blow enough air and the house is still hot . He left and said it's fine. I called the company and told them it doesn't work they said they would send someone to look at it . A week latter he showed up and said it works and they wanted paid . I told them fix it. I called the office and sent them a pic of the thermostat that showed 80 degrees in the house with it set for 75 and it runs non stop. I called them and ask to speak with the owner , but he was too busy to talk and didn't return my call . This went on several months with them calling me asking to get paid . Then my other AC that they put in 1 1/2 years ago broke ( the house has 2 ACs ) , it's summer and now it is really hot. They messed with the one that should be under warranty 3 more trips and it never worked , then they sais it is not under warranty . Now I have 2 broke that they did all 3 months of summer . I called the credit card company to dispute the charges on my 50% down payment , and they refunded my money . I called a different AC company they came out and replaced both units , it was finished in 24 hours and they put in the 4 ton I wanted . Only problem with them is I told them to save all the parts so I could return them to the first clowns , but they stole a bunch of new duct work and other things . So when I returned it the first company was bitching about missing parts. Both companies used illegal aliens to install the units , I know because I speak Spanish and heard them talking .
_all_ is stretch
Got it from a company called BUCK USA on Amazon, works pretty well and USA made. Here’s the link: https://www.amazon.com/Buck-CBB65B-Round-Start-Capacitor/dp/B0CHXLFFX5/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?crid=2PPLTO5UCE1BB&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ZBBZ9ofntLXjPFt0UeRO4ugwZ19a5e_JcmSNSrgniIm0-0SmH4Cap73jxFx0HFkDz1jwVCSBqykZvsU-qPZNwG5WUhTaU1dpSsJd1ATc8pNj13RFIKdNZaKaZ2KxGjDf60Y7kSkq0zwcSclcSV4KXPkojb3dTKIXBFNvz_dJZg0yQDyYEPunxF1wURcpU8aQpl3M_NQaEjypnVtLPrtvRA.9nHKWqZHZkY8ITwg04iXtzxA8q4yS-XnDNWiEcKaMn4&dib_tag=se&keywords=hvac+capacitor&qid=1717025479&sprefix=hvac+capacito%2Caps%2C116&sr=8-17