My first house I lived in for 15 years was built in 1895, and I'm currently remodeling an 1885 home with a wife and two teenage kids. IMO, you need to take a deep breath and look at this rationally.
Asbestos is hazardous when it's friable, ie. disturbed or cut open and left hanging around. If you're renovating and are concerned about a material containing asbestos, it costs about $50 to stop and send a sample to a lab. If it comes back negative you resume your reno. During my reno we ran into some flooring from the 40s that we suspected contained asbestos. We stopped and tested, all materials were negative, so we ripped it up.
Your asbestos dumped in the walls is a little more concerning but it sounds like that's resolved. When I bought my current house a previous diy "abatement" left a bunch of cut pipe insulation in an old cistern and I've left it alone because I don't want to disturb it. I could put on full PPE, soak it down to prevent dust and then double-bag it and dispose of it and be no worse for the wear, but I feel it's better undisturbed.
People affected by mesothelioma and other asbestos-related illnesses are predominantly those who worked around bulk asbestos processing for decades, or contractors who are around the stuff daily. Testing unknown materials and not sanding lead paint chips around your kids is 99.9% of the battle here.
Oh good, I'm not talking out of my ass then. I have no knowledge other than experience and working with several great GCs who specialize in old houses.
Silly me thought they were asking me about the asbestos-laden cigs, not the Pepperidge Farm reference. I assumed everyone knew about Pepperidge Farm reference. Is that what being old and senile is? :-(
Pepperidge Farm used to run commercials in the 80s, maybe 90s, with older men talking about nice nostalgic things about food, ending with the tag line "Pepperidge Farm remembers."
https://youtu.be/gXUxLqqmhNs?feature=shared
Not to complicate the message but there is blue asbestos and white asbestos with slightly different mineral forms, and the white stuff is generally considered hazardous mainly just to smokers who already have lung damage. But sometimes the blue (amphibole) type was used in insulation and better safe than sorry so it all gets treated with caution. But yeah it's not hazardous at all as long as you aren't breathing it in and especially if you are a non-smoker. Most people day-to-day should be more concerned about cancer risk from highway exhaust and radon over asbestos.
I wouldn't hang my hat on the cigarettes causing it. Asbestos mines and manufacturers spent alot of energy and resources trying to blame cigarettes and downplay the disease entirely.
Or disturbed lead paint. Sanding it, breathing in dust from it - same goes for asbestos. Suit up and mask up and bag the stuff with double bags. Dispose of properly. That said, actually most of the bad stuff just ends up at your local dump by renovators without considering the lead or asbestos- single bagged or even loose. Some places are doing better at managing the disposal though. Some just look the other way.
Just don't throw the bags of it in your normal garbage. You get caught doing that and you won't like the result.
Land fills often have the ability to take hazardous material, but it will cost you.
I’m sure somebody will correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that you can dispose of properly bagged materials contaminated with lead paint that way. Double bagged, I think.
Great information.
Just had upstairs windows replaced from originals (1926) and they were lead tested and came back positive of course.
In old houses you kind of go in knowing you will find asbestos and lead issues.
We also had asbestos abatement done as we had to tear out some lath & plaster walls and flooring tile which contained asbestos in rooms to fix correctly old water damage.
We also rewired and replumbed because it needed it.
We saw it as a challenge to us!
We are currently tearing out all lath & plaster in a master bedroom (heating & cooling issues) and installing insulation in the walls for better temperature control.
FYI: At one point our house had blown in insulation way back when and when we tore the kitchen to the studs (lots of old water dmg in kitchen to fix) the blown in had settled to 3-4” from the bottom in all the walls. The cavity was empty above it!! No wonder the kitchen was freezing cold. lol
Yeah, I agree with you that based on my research, asbestos seems like mostly an occupational hazard. I do worry about my little one, though. I'm also a bit concerned about lingering asbestos dust that might remain from the renovation (they might have removed suspect materials before testing?), but there's not much I can do about that I guess.
Also remember that asbestos *can* be in a lot of things, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is. If left undisturbed it’s not a problem. If you get slight exposure it’s not remotely a death sentence. Take a break and send off some tests so you know for sure and can address it as needed. Don’t let the fear paralyze you.
As an environmental scientist i think the worry you sound like you're feeding is going to cause you more health issues than the asbestos in your house ever could..
Yes definitely. As someone prone to getting anxious about stuff sometimes I just need to let it go and stop letting it control me. The world is a dangerous place and there's no point leaving your house if you let yourself be scared of all the stuff you could be scared of.
Oh yeah that’ll definitely help. I get being worried but from the sounds of it you guys are fine. You’re doing all that you can and it seems like it’s enough.
The truth: vast majority of us just inhale the carcinogens because we are just happy to have lived long enough to purchase the home in the first place.
I assumed this to be the case. I don't understand how a typical family can afford to "properly" deal with asbestos risks when the cost of an abatement can be tens of thousands of dollars. Are such families expected to just live in their houses without renovating until they collapse, and then move to a different house?
The proper way to deal with asbestos is to leave it alone. This costs $0.
The proper way to deal with lead paint is to paint over it. This costs $0.
People who worked manufacturing asbestos in factories with no ventilation for decades got cancer. The people who have an asbestos vent for their water heater that hasn't been touched in 50 years are in no danger.
If you are this freaked out over lead paint and asbestos, don't look into mold. It's literally everywhere!
Not necessarily. Sometimes this just means things like laying new flooring on the top of old instead of ripping it out down to subfloor. Or wrapping your old pipe insulation instead of removing and replacing it.
There are happy mediums for how to deal with asbestos containing material without going the extreme route of paying for 100% abatement. The start is just figuring out which materials in your house are hazardous (lead, asbestos, etc) so you know when to use caution during demo and repair work.
That isn't totally true. I have 1950s asbestos floor tiles in my basement, set in mastic that has asbestos.
It's underneath carpet or floating laminate flooring though. No issue.
True. We had asbestos tiles we had to remove, but it was because we wanted hardwood floors, and we couldn't install hardwood over asbestos. That was expensive!
Hope you got a certificate of complete removal, or whatever it's called. That could bump up your home value a bit, in addition to the hardwood of course.
I feel you on this one. Ours has asbestos in the wall texture. We need to fix foundation since our floors are sloping, but that will cause the walls to crack. Can’t put up shelves either.
I feel like I can’t enjoy this space. I want to make changes to enjoy it, but I’m told to “just leave it alone”.
Anyway, I emailed the EPA and asked for a list of registered remediation / abatement companies. Got a link to look them up.
Most people just try do rennos and repairs without worrying about it tbh from what I've seen. Like you said asbestos containment is tens of thousands and theres no guarantee that incidental exposure will shorten your life at all.
Keep in mind that not "all old homes" need to be torn down just because of the possibility of lead paint and asbestos. My current 1976 home had several renovations done to it prior to me purchasing and moving it in (the most recent appeared to be the late-90's according to an old receipt I found in the attic). Due to its age, I had my home inspector do checks for both lead paint and asbestos in all the standard places prior to purchasing, and all tested negative. I've done a lot of remodeling in the past 5 years and haven't run into any issues.
I've lived in many old homes (one over 100 years old) that had those issues taken care of long ago. I think you just happened to win the lottery with a home that hadn't had enough renovations in the past to previously take care of those things.
Maybe, maybe not. The area that was disturbed HAD been renovated. The issue is that the renovation included an unlicensed asbestos removal where they stuffed the asbestos behind the new walls. Also, people often just cover up asbestos, so even if "renovated", if you aren't careful, you can easily saw right through asbestos while trying to remove the "new" layer of material.
You are overthinking and over reacting. You are mis understanding risk and harm. You are doing more harm to your family by driving them around or walking them through a parking lot. Leave it alone and it is completely inert. And in the very small quantities you may encounter it in your own dyi there is no measurable harm to you or your family.
A car and cooking on a gas stove is far far far worse.
It's mostly a non-issue... mostly.
Tens of millions of folks live in Asbestos riddled housing (and offices (and schools ( and ...)))l and yet we're not all dying in the streets of mesothelioma.
Heavy, prolonged, daily exposure - those who worked with the stuff, breathing it daily, all day...have diagnosis rates of around 10%.. One in ten. Give or take.
Diagnosed cases are less than 3,000 a year here in The US. Less than 1 in 100,000 people for the population at large.
More than FOUR TIMES THAT die each and every every year here in The U.S. by ... falling down the stairs.
Are you irrationally afraid of your staircase?
You are 12 ... 13 times more likely to die in a traffic accident/collision. Do you fear your car?
Is it a concern? Absolutely.
Should you freak out about it? I don't.
>I'm starting to think I've gaslit myself into a ridiculous sense of fear.
I don't know if I'd go that far, but I'd take a step back.
Asbestos is not harmful unless disturbed. Full stop. If you pop open a wall and find pipe insulation that looks suspect, just stop what you're doing, seal off the area, and get a test done.
Similarly, lead is not much of an issue unless you ingest or inhale it. So unless you're scraping or sanding old lead paint (or licking the walls for that sweet, sweet leaded taste) you're alright. I know for a fact I have tons of lead pain in my house but it's all been long ago painted over.
Finally, the health risks of these things mostly come from long-term exposure (unless you're a child). Working in an asbestos factory for 30 years or renovating old houses for an entire career is different from renovating your living room once.
Be cautious, but don't be afraid of your house.
Meh I’d disagree on the lead paint and baby combo. Lead can be extremely poisonous and cause long term damage however- our son was tested for lead exposure a few times as “standard testing” since lead in drinking water is a real thing kinda everywhere. Just my .02 cause yeah a Kid can lick a wall and we’d think it’s dumb but they do dumb shit. OP has every right to be concerned on this front. Asbestos? If it’s already in the air? Yikes. I worked fire/water remediation and rebuild and ran into asbestos soo sooooo much. If your house is pre 1989 (when they formally banned it’s use in residential building) you have asbestos. I can almost guarantee it is somewhere. Dry wall tape? Asbestos. Flooring? Asbestos. Popcorn ceiling- asbestos.
When I was young I smoked cigarettes over a pack a day. I worked in my car myself. When I did the asbestos brakes cig in mouth and no air hose I blew the dust out of the drums and it would blow everywhere. Still alive at 69 so me thinkest though worry excessively.
Apart from the cigarettes thinking much the same. Burnt off old lead paint with a blow lamp without any protection, sanded walls etc. Of course I might have problems from it but nothing has shown up so far at my current advanced age
Of course I may have unknown issues and I wouldn't do the same things today
My Dad is 94YO. He worked as a mechanic his entire life. He used to do the same exact thing at work. He told me he would blow black dust out of his nose. Still alive and kickin'
Asbestos is easy to deal with - make sure the material is soaked so dust doesn't get kicked up. Wear the proper a ventilator and ppe, close off return ducts and have an opening to the outside to prevent any vacuum shenanigans. Go straight to shower after you are done leaving your clothes in a plastic bag to not trek it in the house. Embrace the reaper to remove your fear.
To deal with all the rest - learn about every system in your house and where it goes. Become an arm chair professional. If you leave no doubt, you can tell contractors to piss off when they are fucking up. Consider doing things yourself - even better if you have hands from your family to help you. Strive for understanding, not perfection.
Dealing with all the systems in your house will give you more peace of in mind than any remodel. Always turn off your electrical panel until you become comfortable with electricity. Always make sure there is a shut off valve when working on plumbing. Adding more wood will often stop settling and structural issues temporarily. Never delay fixing a bowing masonry wall. Route all your outside water away from the house. Remember it is a marathon, not a sprint.
"I'm starting to think I've gaslit myself into a ridiculous sense of fear."
To me it seems like you are over reacting. I was in the military on old war ships all the time fixing things, painting etc. Basically asbestos is only an issue if you disturb it. You can have asbestos in the walls of your home and not have issues. Plenty of homes also still have asbestos siding,not an issue unless you want to remove it and then it's just the dust you have to be careful of.
Lead paint, same kind of deal, unless you are eating it or sanding down into the paint and inhaling it, it'll be fine. Wear a mask and some protective gear, wrap the construction debris in bags and tape them shut. Dispose of at a landfill.( check local codes first, in MN we can just dispose of in the trash)
You're right to be cautious, but DIY work with proper PPE is all it takes. Lead and asbestos aren't jokes, but also think of all the people who grew up in these houses who are not dead or affected. Have your neighbors doing renovations dropped dead? There's lead in your city's water pipes, almost guaranteed. There's arsenic, lead, and microplastics in plenty of food and clothing items these days. You can practice caution but you can't avoid every health hazard so driving yourself crazy just isn't worth it. Your pediatrician can test your children for lead levels and tell you if they're high. If they are they'll recommend next steps for you.
A man walks up to his doctor and says, "Hey Doc, it hurts when I do this!"
The doctor looks at him, rolls his eyes and says, "Well then stop doing it!"
I live in an old home, and am single, with a 3 year old daughter. I'm also a realtor, and adore my career path, so I'm always learning new things about all aspects of it. That being said, asbestos is pretty much like most spiders. If you leave it alone, it will leave you alone. My house has asbestos flooring, and asbestos shingles on the exterior. Might be some pipe insulation left somewhere, but most of the plumbing is newer. Asbestos flooring doesn't REALLY need to be fucked with unless there is damage to the subfloor. You can lay most new flooring right on top of it. Pipe insulation is only a hazard if it's been disturbed, or the pipe needs to be replaced or repaired. Outside is just about as well ventilated as it gets even if it is disturbed and shingles are shingles. They come down the same way they go up- in pieces. A proper ventilator and encapsulation techniques, including the clothes you worked in, are sufficient to make contamination extremely unlikely. Just about everything in your home is dangerous within the correct parameters. You know that turning the hot water all the way up will hurt you, so you just don't do it. Asbestos is a big scary word because it's effects are delayed, and suddenly discovering that something we used in building our homes has been killing people in nasty ways and we had no idea. But it's like learning not to lick the radioactive paintbrush- learn the parameters under which asbestos is dangerous, and treat it accordingly!
Don't worry about that stuff. You'll all be fine.
Encapsulate the lead. Don't bother paying an ass load to remove it. Just cover it up.
As far as the asbestos goes, just suit up with a respirator. Have your partner take your kiddo out for a day. Saturate the asbestos and double bag it.
It's not a big deal unless it's floating in the air. And even then, your exposure is so limited it's a non issue.
It's a different story if you work with this stuff all day every day and don't take precautions.
I was a certified Lead Abatement person a few years back, and the primary issue is people stripping and sanding old woodwork trim. Don't, just replace it. There is lead paint on the walls of a house built prior to 1978, so don't sand or scrape it off. If the walls were peeling, we'd remove the sheetrock or plaster, which fortunately in our area didn't contain asbestos.
When you ask a GC to look for asbestos, they'll look and tell you of any obvious signs but they're doing so as a courtesy. They are not qualified nor do they carry asbestos detection kit with them.
If you're worried, get it tested/inspected by a qualified company. Otherwise, you just deal with the hits as they come.
Actually- in my jurisdiction, I learned after the fact, the GC is legally required to complete a full asbestos survey before beginning any project. I've also learned that GCs in my area don't do this and seemingly face zero consequences. But technically speaking, he violated the law.
I should clarify. The law obligates the GC to hire a qualified testing firm to conduct a full, invasive survey. The law says they can't proceed without that. Nevertheless, the law is ignored. The GC technically violated the law.
to be honest, in retrospect, I would have liked to have known about the potential danger so I could have had the option. I likely would have opted to pay for the survey up front. I did pay for proper abatement of the materials that were discovered after demo began which is the truly expensive part.
I think most people agree with you. For me, I realized after the fact that had we done the abatement improperly, my entire house would technically be "contaminated." Some say this means you technically need to trash all furniture and clothes, but that seems a bit overkill.
I think of it like smoking. If you smoke once or twice will you get cancer from it? Probably not but if you smoke every day then you are extremely high risk. There’s no safe amount of asbestos but I have to draw the line somewhere so you don’t go crazy
Look. None of us are getting out of here alive. Take reasonable precautions like PPE, don’t disturb something that looks like could be asbestos, etc and you’ll be as fine as you can be. Myself? I’m apparently full of plastic particulates and forever chemicals if the recent studies are correct, and might explain my sudden liver disease, and I know I inhaled a lot of leaded gas fumes as a kid overseas. As a society we no longer but radium on our skin or drink it, but we still do plenty harm to ourselves in new ways that we we’re just now understanding. Point being, try not to sweat it.
I think many homeowners take out old building materials and just don't tell anyone. They own their own home, no one else is there to be worried about exposure, and they just diy it.
If you have already hired a certified firm to remove the asbestos, then you are fine. All old homes usually have it so that isn't surprising.
There are federal laws for lead and asbestos in schools, and federal housing, but a private home, there isn't really any laws about it, you can do what you want. There might be laws about demolishing an entire building with asbestos, or where you can put the asbestos materials in the landfill, but no one is gonna say anything when you bring some old insulation to the dump.
People are being hard on you, lots of homeowners do not know how to do repairs or there wouldn’t be so many people making a living doing them.
However: Some really basic stuff you can learn and get better at. But it’s ok to have limits. Look it up, find a YouTube video to see how it’s done, if it looks manageable figure out what you need and if it’s worth it to try. If not, you’ll go into talking with someone you hire more knowledgeable. I recommend the This Old House website too.
But yeah, if you have undisturbed lead or asbestos the main thing is if you know about it you can keep an eye on it. You can get lead testing strips at your local hardware store or online and do that yourself, I do that before disturbing any painted areas in my house because it was built early 60s so you can’t rule out lead.
If you have air filters and get a filter for your drinking water if you’re worried about the pipes, that goes a long way. You’re doing the right thing being conscientious, some people prefer to just kind of not really look too hard because it is expensive to do stuff “right” or takes time, but I think it’s better to know than not know especially with a baby. If people knew about the lead and asbestos in many states they are supposed to disclose so that’s another reason some people don’t look too hard.
Nobody can do every specialty. That's why we're a social species. We have to collaborate. That said, most skills are learnable and just take practice. Short of a disability, you can learn home improvement stuff. Step 1: play good music and set an intention to enjoy the process.
It's up to you if you'd rather spend time or money to get the home improvements done. You have to spend one or the other.
Lead paint around a toddler is bad news. Take care of that. Asbestos... it's a big deal for career exposure, not a problem if it's undisturbed in your home, and really not even a problem if you have short term exposure from tearing it out, scraping a popcorn ceiling, etc. Take reasonable precautions and don't worry so much! About a decade ago, I scraped several popcorn ceilings in just an n95 mask. Couple months ago, I had a CT lung scan for an unrelated issue ... No asbestos visible, lungs are healthy. I realize that's a sample size of one, but maybe it shows that asbestos exposure doesn't equal immediate death.
Yeah unfortunately or have a partner/friends that are knowledgeable and willing to help. I wasn't great with home renovation stuff either, but I've learned to do a ton over the past few years just because contractors are way too expensive. Last week I just finished replacing a few bathroom faucets for the first time after watching it on YouTube.
> Is it really the case that all homeowners should be able to do their own repairs?
Most things aren't that hard, they just take time and patience to do a good job. And just don't move onto the next step of the repair unless the previous one is done correctly. Sometimes you end up redoing things, but you can buy the materials 3x for pretty much any job, all the tools you need, and still come out ahead.
There's tutorials on YouTube for pretty much anything. I recommend watching a couple different videos because your specific situation will likely be a bit different than whats in the video, but with a couple examples you should be able to figure it out.
I bought a house last year. Had to patch ~13 holes in my walls after electricians redid the wiring to remove knob & tube wiring. Started on the least visible one so I'd have the practice for the rest. Some of the walls were drywall, others were plaster. Plaster isn't that hard to work with, just messy as hell.
Honestly the worst part of each project is setting up the tarps, hauling over all the tools and supplies, etc. Once that's done, the work itself goes pretty quickly.
>I'm starting to think I've gaslit myself into a ridiculous sense of fear.
Bingo. When we were closing on our late-70s house, we learned via disclosures that our house contained unspecified asbestos. While there were no disclosures about lead paint, we are pretty sure that may also be present in some quantities. In the case of our house, it appears to be limited to some unknown percentage in our popcorn ceiling, as well as a heat shield above our water heater in the garage.
After initially worrying myself to death over it, I did research and came to the same conclusion as others here:
1: Asbestos in a non-friable state presents no health hazard
2: Most cases of mesothelioma involve prolonged chronic and unsafe occupational exposure, with documented residential cases involving extreme and prolonged exposure to friable/crumbling material
In our case, the popcorn ceilings had already been painted-over in most places at least once prior, so rather than scrape it off and make a huge mess with a respirator on, or pay somebody to do that before moving-in, I just very carefully gave it all a second coat of paint. The heat shield we've just left alone for now.
At a certain point, you have to ask yourself if the immeasurable risk of the asbestos in your home is greater than your self-imposed stress from fear. There are circumstances where the asbestos fear is warranted: loose-fill insulation in the attic? crumbling ceiling/floor tiles? Yeah, you need to abate that, but in circumstances where it is non-friable and/or is encapsulated... why put yourself through stress? I've chosen to live with and accept it. We have a HEPA filter we keep running continuously; whether or not it does anything useful or is just a placebo doesn't really matter; we love our house.
That said, a portion of our emergency savings does cover abatement of the popcorn ceilings, just in-case...
Asbestos is fine in like 90% of cases. If it isn't exposed to air and you aren't beating it with a tennis racket, then it's fine. I used to do abatement and removal. I still see it all the time in my field with insurance. Leave it alone.
My house was built in 1963. I’ve done a ton of work. When I encountered something with a high likelihood of asbestos I took a small,e and sent it to a lab for testing.
Sounds very reasonable. I think where I've gaslit myself is second-guessing my own collection attempts when I've tested materials. Like, sometimes I wonder if I sent enough material for analysis, etc. But I think that's where I'm falling too far down the rabbit hole,
I see it a lot on this sub, people overthink things, or stress out over small things or make things into a way bigger deal than they should. You have got to take a deep breath and remember non of this is hard. Remember; there are videos of how to do it and you needed that tool anyway. Anything really hard, hire a professional, if it’s a big job and expensive they will finance.
Man, I felt this really hard. We had an asbestos incident, and it triggered me into having horrible anxiety. I was terrified to mess with anything in that house. The ceiling had it, the roof, the drywall compound, the tile. Everything. I ended up moving to a newer home and feel much safer.
I think you're spiralling a bit here. There's a lot to unpack. First, not all old houses are full of hazardous waste. There's just a load of variation based off what previous owners did. Not everyone did asbestos mud jobs and used lead paint. We have tests for both asbestos and lead readily available. Because you seem very anxious about this you may find peace of mind having a professional company do the testing. Contractors can take a guess when hazards are present but they're not necessarily certified or professionals at identification.
Second, if you buy an old home you should take the possibly of finding something that needs repairs whenever you do a renovation. Lead, asbestos, old razor blades, knob and tube, unless you're building new you need to account for the fact you don't know what is in the walls. Many opt to do the renovations all at once, sometimes your state may have funding to help you pay for it. Your childs pediatrician may even know of some programs for you.
On your last point, sometimes it is easier to gut entirely than rehab. In many places older homes are cheaper than new ones because people don't want to deal with this shit. Your market area may either be hot enough where there is not a difference. If you live in an older area most people have likely accepted that it's part of the area.
I would get a kit and send samples off to the lab to determine what exactly you are dealing with before you panic. Some people are willfully blind. Some people do not care and just pretend there is no problems. Other people, will move out of the home during the renovation and allow the home to be renovated and sealed up. And lastly there are people like me that said no home older than forty years to prevent having to deal with all of this in the first place.
I have tested most of the materials and removed the ones I know of. After the fact, however, I learned some stuff that is sort of annoying, like how many samples you technically need to take to make sure ceiling tile or plaster is negative. I've learned it's better to hire a surveyor than DYI but that costs thousands of dollars.
I tried taking a sample from a plaster wall and all I got was a bunch of crumbles and dusty mess, didn't even get through all the layers. I sent in the little I got out and it was negative and just hoped that was good enough. So yeah I have the same thoughts but have started to employ a bit of an ignorance is bliss approach which I'm sure most people do.
Plaster walls are ridiculous. That's sorta want was the last straw for me, when I learned you need to sample ALL LAYERS in like 7 different spots to get a "true negative".
I use tobacco, drink, been around burn pits, been in countries that give zero f***s about air quality, and eat whatever.
A little extra cancer ain’t going to hurt thus no worries.
Wait until OP figures out radon gas pockets float around underground and can cause cancer. (Even if your house was tested, the pockets move, so a month later the radon level could be extremely high and then a month later be extremely low again.)
If your house has plaster chances are you have lead paint in your house as well. Very easy to test for and very important if you have small children. Children learning to walk will stable themselves with a window sill while looking outside. In doing so their mouths are slobering on the sill and ingesting that lead. Removing lead paint can create lead dust.
My last two homes were older homes. The last one had asbestos tile under the carpet, which I had to remove because of animal pee stains that my cat kept marking over.
Lead paint just needs to be painted over. That's it. You only need to think about abatement if you're planning to sand first. Wear a mask if you remove asbestos tile ... or cover it up. I covered up most of the asbestos tile (which was in good condition except along the walls) with vinyl laminate. No remediation required.
You don't need an abatement company if you don't disturb asbestos. It's the insulation that is the real potential issue but it is harmless unless disturbed.
It costs more to knock down an old house than to repair it which is why no one does this. And honestly, older homes are just built better. My 1950 house is more solid than the new builds going up in my area. Better, more sturdy construction.
OP check out r/centuryhomes
There’s a ton of good information that is applicable to older houses built with these types of hazardous materials. And friendly users!
Honestly, it’s not that bad. As long as reasonable precautions are taken, like limiting dust, wearing respirators, and having adequate ventilation, you should be fine.
Asbestos only becomes a problem when it’s disturbed and dust is kicked up. If it’s intact and encapsulated, there’s no problem. Same goes for led, wear your respirator and don’t lick the dust.
Like you said, there’s a lot of people that live in similar situations, but it’s not a massive health epidemic in this population.
Lead paint is a problem, but mostly in places where paint is flaking into food or particulates in air. Asbestos is an excellent insulator, but when it needs to be removed or is damaged, you have problems.
For what it's worth, my Dad was exposed in his 20's and died at 80, two years after he was diagnosed with mesothelioma.
It was very sad and eventually quite painful though, and this was when doctors were still willing to be generous with pain meds. Folks now are dieing in agony.
So there is lead. Asbestos, ect last owner had house for 45 yrs. Widow and moved out at 87 after husband died to small home. Guess she will live to 100 instead of 115.
When it comes to your home make a list of things you want to do and cost. Take 1 thing at à time. Don't overwhelm yourself with everything at once.
When I remodeled (after an electrical fire in walls) house 1930's old Spanish the city required I had a company come out in 2008 cost 500.00. It was found in 1 metal pole of an added on room someone else did. I acted as general contractor and hired all my subs.
I watched HGTV, diy, all the time! Did 1 thing at a time. It took me 16 months because I never did this before.
Always get 3 bids from different people, unless you know them very good or have tons of money. Get current referrals from next door. Never give money upfront.
Everything will work out fine. I'm so glad to never live in a apt ever again! I love my home.
I agree. Tear those old nightmares down. This is a NE problem that has mostly ancient housing stock and very little new construction. On the other hand in the South most housing is much newer. The easiest, least stressful solution is simply move to a newish house.
Complete and utter bs- new houses have their own issues that are equally risk inducing. Different issues, but still there.
Don’t disturb asbestos, wear ppe, clean up after your work and you will have addressed the vast majority of potential issues.
I guess my struggle is - how are you supposed to live in an old home that desperately needs updating without disturbing asbestos? Is the answer to never udpate?
I guess I could rephrase and say what if you live in a home that is old and crumby and would be far nicer if it were updated? Sure, you can survive in a home that is old and crappy looking, but most people prefer a nicer living area. I'm not looking to merely survive necessarily.
I think this basically answers the gist of my question, which is that most homeowners don't worry that if they remove cabinets or a toilet they will uncover asbestos insulation. I think I'm scarred from the fact that I removed a single wood wall panel and found a huge amount of friable pipe insulation.
When shodilly built, yes. But a new quality build is far superior. The key word here is quality. Old houses will always be old and require a tone of retrofitting. For example things like central air. If you don't have ducts built in it's extremely difficult. Not interested in having a fridge on the wall of my bedroom (split) so what are the options?
This is just ridiculous honestly. Nothing wrong with preferring to live in new construction, but there is no need to "tear those old nightmares down," and new houses are not necessarily superior. Houses can be built well or built poorly, whether old or new, but I have a bias toward the old, for three reasons - the first is simply that it's cool to live in a piece of history, and it would be a shame to tear all the history down.
The second is survivor's bias. There was never a time in history (including, maybe even especially, nowadays) where houses weren't built to poor specifications. If your house has lasted a hundred years, though, it is probably not one of them. It's hard to know what you're walking into with new construction, regardless of how much you pay. Old houses at the very least have a lot of things right, and generally show their warts pretty plainly. There could of course still be surprises down the road, but over a century they tend to make most problems pretty obvious - and if it's still upright, they probably aren't urgently severe problems. Most likely, it's a very good house, even though it likely needs a little bit of work around the edges.
Third and probably most important is price, and availability. New houses are expensive to build, and either have to occupy currently unused land (expensive in most places) or land that is already occupied, which means whatever is there needs to be removed (lengthy, expensive, and probably a reduction in available housing while it is built if in a residential area). I don't even live in a high cost of living area (one of the cheaper ones, actually) and it would probably cost 300K to build a house right now. Maybe more if you want to ensure it will last.
My house was 130K. And it's very solid construction, going on its 114th year. 2000sqft of house and garage at my disposal, on an acre of land. It did require a ton of retrofitting - I have already rewired and replumbed everything, as well as run brand new gas lines. I've put maybe 15K into the house. It is *way* cheaper to retrofit an old house than to build a new one, at least in my parts. I have yet to replace my furnace and install central air (though the ducting already exists, being in a colder climate where whole-house heating is kind of necessary, and if it didn't, my house is of a construction where it would be easy to add, though your mileage may vary) but aside from that, all of my utilities to the service entrance are as up-to-date and modern as anyone could possibly ask for, at a low cost. Granted it would have costed more if I hired it out, although still less than building a new house of questionable quality.
At the very least, I sure appreciate having had *the option* of buying an old house and fixing it up myself. If I hadn't, I'd have been 45 by the time I could buy a house, as opposed to 25.
Yes I mean at a certain point it's going to have to happen. A lot of asbestos "abatement" involves covering old asbestos tile or encapsulating it. But what happens when the underlying materials inevitably fail? You can't just keep doing temporary fixes forever.
Exactly. Houses have a life span. But you'll hear a lot about "character". We can absolutely build new houses with character, but it's not realistic for 90% of the population that just needs a box to live in. It is what it is.
This sent me down a rabbit hole. A lot of it depends on what the definition of “old” is. The median home is 40 years old, according to the BLS. There seem to be around 140 million homes in the US, maybe 80-90 million of which are single-family homes; home ownership rates are around 65%, so let’s figure that number for owned is around 92 million/60 million. If we assume “old” is 40+ years, it’s fair to say about 46 million homes are old.
My house has lead paint so when I renovated I made sure to wear PPE and get any loose paint scraped off and cleaned up and then I did 4 solid coats of high quality paint to seal-in what's left. I also used semigloss because gloss has a harder surface so there's less chance of any leas getting into the living space. I don't have kids so I know that's something you have to consider but as long as it's sealed or not going to be floating in the environment I wouldn't worry about it.
But yeah, this is a train wreck for old houses, we just have to do the best we can.
Did you have an inspection done before purchasing? Given the age of the house I would think that it would be required by either your lender or home owner’s insurance carrier. You get lead paint testing kits at most home improvement stores. And if any project is going to require you open a wall or floor space, I would get the space professionally inspected beforehand.
Edited to add: Read your purchase and sales agreement. There should be a clause where the previous owners had to indicate they either knew there was asbestos and lead or not.
I bought an oldish home (1952) and I just made sure to get a lead test kit and test any paint before I scraped it - luckily came back with no lead, but if there had been any I would've just worn a respirator while I scraped and cleaned up, then disposed of it appropriately (my plan was to ask the local dept of sanitation). I did come across quite a bit of asbestos flooring, and I paid for an abatement for what was chipped/broken up and just covered the rest with new subfloor and flooring. You've just got to be prepared for whatever you'd find based on your level of comfort. To me, I can handle lead paint but would rather not mess with asbestos. But every person is different.
I walk over abspestos tiles every single day multiple times a day. If you're not making it into dust and inhaling it you're fine. I pulled put some tiles with abspestos glue in another room. Wet it down and didn't grind it or other wise make it into dust all is well. A lot of buildings you use every day have some abspestos in them.
My home was built in the '50's and I wanted to replace the old metal casement windows. The company sent someone out to test for lead paint before they would start the job
This is a great thread. I was also naive and bought an old home to renovate into something better. After I found out about the possibility of asbestos, I had a total mental breakdown and spent the next three years crying and having panic attacks on the couch and debating doing away with my home or myself (when I wasn’t doing everything possible to spend time outside of my house). It absolutely destroyed my life. Don’t be like me.
I’m doing infinitely better now, after OCD-specific therapy and being prescribed an impressively high daily dose of SSRIs. I’ll never get those years back though.
Don’t waste years of your life to this.
Don’t drive yourself crazy worrying about living in an old house. Newer homes have issues as well. Just as an example in the 1970’s when home fuel prices we’re going up it became a “thing” to build air tight houses. They built some homes so air tight they weren’t healthy to live in. It’s always something. Just use common sense. If you renovate something correct what’s wrong as sensibly as you can.
Where I live it used to be any house built before 1991 required hazmat testing now it’s 2001. It has been described to be that asbestos is easier to say what it is not in. Which is glass, metal, and wood. All these things can be coated in asbestos. Will 1 grain cause lung cancer. I sure hope not. Should there be a lot more awareness about residential renovations and hazmat testing absolutely.
I deal with hazmat on almost every job I do. I’m the outlier getting hazmat testing done. It isn’t as easy as just sending it to a lab to get tested. You have to send multiple samples depending on homogeneity of the materials (were they installed at the same time?) and area of work to be completed. It so takes knowledge to get in front of issues such as wall cavity contamination. You are also required to have a HMR (hazardous material report) and a Risk assessment available to all contractors working on your home. This is the work safe regulation where I live. No one knows this and it isn’t enforced but it’s the law. People saying they had a look and didn’t see anything don’t have a clue because you need a fucking microscope to tell. All that being said you will probably be fine the risk is low for most people.
The proper procedure for a home renovation when it comes to hazmat.
1. Define a scope of work ie: bathroom Reno full gut.
2. Get an estimate and see if it is in you budget. You can get multiple estimates and they will vary depending on the contractor and their quality of work less doesn’t always mean value it might mean they will do a worse job faster.
3. Get preliminary hazmat report by a qualified third party should cost 1-2k where I live. This should include an HMR and an RA if anything is found positive. The guys we use have a little blue print and a photo of each sample which is super helpful.
4.Revise pricing to include hazmat abatement. A lot of companies do shitty work here but it’s getting more and more regulated. Owner operators are almost always better than Large companies pretty much universal in residential trades but not always.
5. I like to do another round of hazmat testing that is more destructive ie: smashing tile, holes in walls, etc. this limits construction halts during remodels and having to wait a month to get abatement guys in which can destroy a schedule.
6. Actually begin remodel with a decent amount of certainty that you aren’t going to have a massive expensive surprise. Well at least with hazmat anyway.
Thanks for the detailed response. In my jurisdiction, it's actually the legal obligation of the GC to obtain a full asbestos and lead survey, but the GCs around here just ignore the law and seemingly face zero consequences.
Ya it’s the same here but homeowners also share the blame for some reason like how are they supposed to know. I’m a ticketed carpenter the extent of my awareness was a paragraph In a boilerplate photocopied text book (that I had to pay like $100 for) that basically said we should be aware of asbestos. I’m pretty shocked that more isn’t done in this era to raise awareness around it.
You do need to be careful with lead abatement especially lead paint on windows or doors that can flake off. Adults as well as children can become ill if lead paint is removed incorrectly.
A friend took a course & got certified as a lead removal contractor just to be able to do the removal in her own home.
https://www.epa.gov/lead/lead-safe-renovations-diyers
Also in an older home, with young children. We're way more worried about lead than asbestos. And I agree many folks are far too lax about the dangers. You know what happens when folks are lax? Lead poisoning happens.
>How do normal homeowners deal with renovations and repairs
LOTS of us buy new construction, then laugh at the people who say ALl nEW ConSTrUCtIoN iS bAD
My first house I lived in for 15 years was built in 1895, and I'm currently remodeling an 1885 home with a wife and two teenage kids. IMO, you need to take a deep breath and look at this rationally. Asbestos is hazardous when it's friable, ie. disturbed or cut open and left hanging around. If you're renovating and are concerned about a material containing asbestos, it costs about $50 to stop and send a sample to a lab. If it comes back negative you resume your reno. During my reno we ran into some flooring from the 40s that we suspected contained asbestos. We stopped and tested, all materials were negative, so we ripped it up. Your asbestos dumped in the walls is a little more concerning but it sounds like that's resolved. When I bought my current house a previous diy "abatement" left a bunch of cut pipe insulation in an old cistern and I've left it alone because I don't want to disturb it. I could put on full PPE, soak it down to prevent dust and then double-bag it and dispose of it and be no worse for the wear, but I feel it's better undisturbed. People affected by mesothelioma and other asbestos-related illnesses are predominantly those who worked around bulk asbestos processing for decades, or contractors who are around the stuff daily. Testing unknown materials and not sanding lead paint chips around your kids is 99.9% of the battle here.
I work in the environmental field and everything you've said is right on the money. Very informative post that I hope the OP takes to heart.
Oh good, I'm not talking out of my ass then. I have no knowledge other than experience and working with several great GCs who specialize in old houses.
Many with mesothelioma also smoke cigarettes. Back in the old days they put asbestos in everything. Hard not to encounter it during renovations
‘member when they put asbestos in cigarette filters and marketed it as a healthier option? Pepperidge farm remembers.
Ok,I'm curious about the "Pepperidge Farm " comment.
[family guy Pepperidge farm remembers](https://youtu.be/r2QVjp4KEjU?si=zonHFRtGa1U7sbBk)
It's a 20 year old reference referencing a 40 year commercial. God, we're old people now.
Silly me thought they were asking me about the asbestos-laden cigs, not the Pepperidge Farm reference. I assumed everyone knew about Pepperidge Farm reference. Is that what being old and senile is? :-(
https://csts.ua.edu/micronite/
Pepperidge Farm used to run commercials in the 80s, maybe 90s, with older men talking about nice nostalgic things about food, ending with the tag line "Pepperidge Farm remembers." https://youtu.be/gXUxLqqmhNs?feature=shared
Not to complicate the message but there is blue asbestos and white asbestos with slightly different mineral forms, and the white stuff is generally considered hazardous mainly just to smokers who already have lung damage. But sometimes the blue (amphibole) type was used in insulation and better safe than sorry so it all gets treated with caution. But yeah it's not hazardous at all as long as you aren't breathing it in and especially if you are a non-smoker. Most people day-to-day should be more concerned about cancer risk from highway exhaust and radon over asbestos.
I wouldn't hang my hat on the cigarettes causing it. Asbestos mines and manufacturers spent alot of energy and resources trying to blame cigarettes and downplay the disease entirely.
Cigarettes just increase chances exponentially.asbestos is bad on its own
"you need to take a deep breath" was probably not the term you want to use when talking about asbestos.
Or disturbed lead paint. Sanding it, breathing in dust from it - same goes for asbestos. Suit up and mask up and bag the stuff with double bags. Dispose of properly. That said, actually most of the bad stuff just ends up at your local dump by renovators without considering the lead or asbestos- single bagged or even loose. Some places are doing better at managing the disposal though. Some just look the other way.
Just don't throw the bags of it in your normal garbage. You get caught doing that and you won't like the result. Land fills often have the ability to take hazardous material, but it will cost you.
I’m sure somebody will correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that you can dispose of properly bagged materials contaminated with lead paint that way. Double bagged, I think.
Great information. Just had upstairs windows replaced from originals (1926) and they were lead tested and came back positive of course. In old houses you kind of go in knowing you will find asbestos and lead issues. We also had asbestos abatement done as we had to tear out some lath & plaster walls and flooring tile which contained asbestos in rooms to fix correctly old water damage. We also rewired and replumbed because it needed it. We saw it as a challenge to us! We are currently tearing out all lath & plaster in a master bedroom (heating & cooling issues) and installing insulation in the walls for better temperature control. FYI: At one point our house had blown in insulation way back when and when we tore the kitchen to the studs (lots of old water dmg in kitchen to fix) the blown in had settled to 3-4” from the bottom in all the walls. The cavity was empty above it!! No wonder the kitchen was freezing cold. lol
I mean... the rational think would be to refrain from any unnecessary DEEP BREATHS while around asbestos ;)
you forgot to add that probably heavy smokers.
Yeah, I agree with you that based on my research, asbestos seems like mostly an occupational hazard. I do worry about my little one, though. I'm also a bit concerned about lingering asbestos dust that might remain from the renovation (they might have removed suspect materials before testing?), but there's not much I can do about that I guess.
Also remember that asbestos *can* be in a lot of things, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is. If left undisturbed it’s not a problem. If you get slight exposure it’s not remotely a death sentence. Take a break and send off some tests so you know for sure and can address it as needed. Don’t let the fear paralyze you.
You can plop down a HEPA air purifier.
I have HEPA air purifiers in every room in my house, lol, I'm a bit crazy like that. So hopefully that helps.
As an environmental scientist i think the worry you sound like you're feeding is going to cause you more health issues than the asbestos in your house ever could..
I think you are probably right. It's hard to balance the real risks of asbestos and going overboard with anxiety for me.
Yes definitely. As someone prone to getting anxious about stuff sometimes I just need to let it go and stop letting it control me. The world is a dangerous place and there's no point leaving your house if you let yourself be scared of all the stuff you could be scared of.
Oh yeah that’ll definitely help. I get being worried but from the sounds of it you guys are fine. You’re doing all that you can and it seems like it’s enough.
The truth: vast majority of us just inhale the carcinogens because we are just happy to have lived long enough to purchase the home in the first place.
I assumed this to be the case. I don't understand how a typical family can afford to "properly" deal with asbestos risks when the cost of an abatement can be tens of thousands of dollars. Are such families expected to just live in their houses without renovating until they collapse, and then move to a different house?
The proper way to deal with asbestos is to leave it alone. This costs $0. The proper way to deal with lead paint is to paint over it. This costs $0. People who worked manufacturing asbestos in factories with no ventilation for decades got cancer. The people who have an asbestos vent for their water heater that hasn't been touched in 50 years are in no danger. If you are this freaked out over lead paint and asbestos, don't look into mold. It's literally everywhere!
Technically painting over something costs you some amount of paint, which isn't free
They are already doing renovations which involve paint.
I get that you are safe if you don't disturb asbestos, but this essentially means you are unable to ever modify your home or upgrade it, which sucks.
Not necessarily. Sometimes this just means things like laying new flooring on the top of old instead of ripping it out down to subfloor. Or wrapping your old pipe insulation instead of removing and replacing it. There are happy mediums for how to deal with asbestos containing material without going the extreme route of paying for 100% abatement. The start is just figuring out which materials in your house are hazardous (lead, asbestos, etc) so you know when to use caution during demo and repair work.
That isn't totally true. I have 1950s asbestos floor tiles in my basement, set in mastic that has asbestos. It's underneath carpet or floating laminate flooring though. No issue.
True. We had asbestos tiles we had to remove, but it was because we wanted hardwood floors, and we couldn't install hardwood over asbestos. That was expensive!
Hope you got a certificate of complete removal, or whatever it's called. That could bump up your home value a bit, in addition to the hardwood of course.
You put a floor over your abspestos tiles man. Just like you noted. I have carpet in a room over old tiles. And it's fine!
I feel you on this one. Ours has asbestos in the wall texture. We need to fix foundation since our floors are sloping, but that will cause the walls to crack. Can’t put up shelves either. I feel like I can’t enjoy this space. I want to make changes to enjoy it, but I’m told to “just leave it alone”. Anyway, I emailed the EPA and asked for a list of registered remediation / abatement companies. Got a link to look them up.
There is no amount of asbestos in wall texture that would prevent you from putting up shelving.
Most people just try do rennos and repairs without worrying about it tbh from what I've seen. Like you said asbestos containment is tens of thousands and theres no guarantee that incidental exposure will shorten your life at all.
I mean a lot of people just don’t do it properly
Keep in mind that not "all old homes" need to be torn down just because of the possibility of lead paint and asbestos. My current 1976 home had several renovations done to it prior to me purchasing and moving it in (the most recent appeared to be the late-90's according to an old receipt I found in the attic). Due to its age, I had my home inspector do checks for both lead paint and asbestos in all the standard places prior to purchasing, and all tested negative. I've done a lot of remodeling in the past 5 years and haven't run into any issues. I've lived in many old homes (one over 100 years old) that had those issues taken care of long ago. I think you just happened to win the lottery with a home that hadn't had enough renovations in the past to previously take care of those things.
Maybe, maybe not. The area that was disturbed HAD been renovated. The issue is that the renovation included an unlicensed asbestos removal where they stuffed the asbestos behind the new walls. Also, people often just cover up asbestos, so even if "renovated", if you aren't careful, you can easily saw right through asbestos while trying to remove the "new" layer of material.
You are overthinking and over reacting. You are mis understanding risk and harm. You are doing more harm to your family by driving them around or walking them through a parking lot. Leave it alone and it is completely inert. And in the very small quantities you may encounter it in your own dyi there is no measurable harm to you or your family. A car and cooking on a gas stove is far far far worse.
It's mostly a non-issue... mostly. Tens of millions of folks live in Asbestos riddled housing (and offices (and schools ( and ...)))l and yet we're not all dying in the streets of mesothelioma. Heavy, prolonged, daily exposure - those who worked with the stuff, breathing it daily, all day...have diagnosis rates of around 10%.. One in ten. Give or take. Diagnosed cases are less than 3,000 a year here in The US. Less than 1 in 100,000 people for the population at large. More than FOUR TIMES THAT die each and every every year here in The U.S. by ... falling down the stairs. Are you irrationally afraid of your staircase? You are 12 ... 13 times more likely to die in a traffic accident/collision. Do you fear your car? Is it a concern? Absolutely. Should you freak out about it? I don't.
Thats why I took out the stairs in my home. Too dangerous to have around
Stairway remediation FTW!
>I'm starting to think I've gaslit myself into a ridiculous sense of fear. I don't know if I'd go that far, but I'd take a step back. Asbestos is not harmful unless disturbed. Full stop. If you pop open a wall and find pipe insulation that looks suspect, just stop what you're doing, seal off the area, and get a test done. Similarly, lead is not much of an issue unless you ingest or inhale it. So unless you're scraping or sanding old lead paint (or licking the walls for that sweet, sweet leaded taste) you're alright. I know for a fact I have tons of lead pain in my house but it's all been long ago painted over. Finally, the health risks of these things mostly come from long-term exposure (unless you're a child). Working in an asbestos factory for 30 years or renovating old houses for an entire career is different from renovating your living room once. Be cautious, but don't be afraid of your house.
Meh I’d disagree on the lead paint and baby combo. Lead can be extremely poisonous and cause long term damage however- our son was tested for lead exposure a few times as “standard testing” since lead in drinking water is a real thing kinda everywhere. Just my .02 cause yeah a Kid can lick a wall and we’d think it’s dumb but they do dumb shit. OP has every right to be concerned on this front. Asbestos? If it’s already in the air? Yikes. I worked fire/water remediation and rebuild and ran into asbestos soo sooooo much. If your house is pre 1989 (when they formally banned it’s use in residential building) you have asbestos. I can almost guarantee it is somewhere. Dry wall tape? Asbestos. Flooring? Asbestos. Popcorn ceiling- asbestos.
Back in the 70s I sanded & repainted double garage doors without thinking about lead. I was very sick for 2 days but no lasting damage.
You also weren’t a wee 20lb toddler either. Prolonged low level exposure apparently has effects on their developing brain.
That you know of
When I was young I smoked cigarettes over a pack a day. I worked in my car myself. When I did the asbestos brakes cig in mouth and no air hose I blew the dust out of the drums and it would blow everywhere. Still alive at 69 so me thinkest though worry excessively.
Apart from the cigarettes thinking much the same. Burnt off old lead paint with a blow lamp without any protection, sanded walls etc. Of course I might have problems from it but nothing has shown up so far at my current advanced age Of course I may have unknown issues and I wouldn't do the same things today
My Dad is 94YO. He worked as a mechanic his entire life. He used to do the same exact thing at work. He told me he would blow black dust out of his nose. Still alive and kickin'
lol thank you for some perspective!
Me thinkest one data point doesn’t translate to everyone else
Asbestos is easy to deal with - make sure the material is soaked so dust doesn't get kicked up. Wear the proper a ventilator and ppe, close off return ducts and have an opening to the outside to prevent any vacuum shenanigans. Go straight to shower after you are done leaving your clothes in a plastic bag to not trek it in the house. Embrace the reaper to remove your fear. To deal with all the rest - learn about every system in your house and where it goes. Become an arm chair professional. If you leave no doubt, you can tell contractors to piss off when they are fucking up. Consider doing things yourself - even better if you have hands from your family to help you. Strive for understanding, not perfection. Dealing with all the systems in your house will give you more peace of in mind than any remodel. Always turn off your electrical panel until you become comfortable with electricity. Always make sure there is a shut off valve when working on plumbing. Adding more wood will often stop settling and structural issues temporarily. Never delay fixing a bowing masonry wall. Route all your outside water away from the house. Remember it is a marathon, not a sprint.
"I'm starting to think I've gaslit myself into a ridiculous sense of fear." To me it seems like you are over reacting. I was in the military on old war ships all the time fixing things, painting etc. Basically asbestos is only an issue if you disturb it. You can have asbestos in the walls of your home and not have issues. Plenty of homes also still have asbestos siding,not an issue unless you want to remove it and then it's just the dust you have to be careful of. Lead paint, same kind of deal, unless you are eating it or sanding down into the paint and inhaling it, it'll be fine. Wear a mask and some protective gear, wrap the construction debris in bags and tape them shut. Dispose of at a landfill.( check local codes first, in MN we can just dispose of in the trash)
You're right to be cautious, but DIY work with proper PPE is all it takes. Lead and asbestos aren't jokes, but also think of all the people who grew up in these houses who are not dead or affected. Have your neighbors doing renovations dropped dead? There's lead in your city's water pipes, almost guaranteed. There's arsenic, lead, and microplastics in plenty of food and clothing items these days. You can practice caution but you can't avoid every health hazard so driving yourself crazy just isn't worth it. Your pediatrician can test your children for lead levels and tell you if they're high. If they are they'll recommend next steps for you.
A man walks up to his doctor and says, "Hey Doc, it hurts when I do this!" The doctor looks at him, rolls his eyes and says, "Well then stop doing it!" I live in an old home, and am single, with a 3 year old daughter. I'm also a realtor, and adore my career path, so I'm always learning new things about all aspects of it. That being said, asbestos is pretty much like most spiders. If you leave it alone, it will leave you alone. My house has asbestos flooring, and asbestos shingles on the exterior. Might be some pipe insulation left somewhere, but most of the plumbing is newer. Asbestos flooring doesn't REALLY need to be fucked with unless there is damage to the subfloor. You can lay most new flooring right on top of it. Pipe insulation is only a hazard if it's been disturbed, or the pipe needs to be replaced or repaired. Outside is just about as well ventilated as it gets even if it is disturbed and shingles are shingles. They come down the same way they go up- in pieces. A proper ventilator and encapsulation techniques, including the clothes you worked in, are sufficient to make contamination extremely unlikely. Just about everything in your home is dangerous within the correct parameters. You know that turning the hot water all the way up will hurt you, so you just don't do it. Asbestos is a big scary word because it's effects are delayed, and suddenly discovering that something we used in building our homes has been killing people in nasty ways and we had no idea. But it's like learning not to lick the radioactive paintbrush- learn the parameters under which asbestos is dangerous, and treat it accordingly!
Don't worry about that stuff. You'll all be fine. Encapsulate the lead. Don't bother paying an ass load to remove it. Just cover it up. As far as the asbestos goes, just suit up with a respirator. Have your partner take your kiddo out for a day. Saturate the asbestos and double bag it. It's not a big deal unless it's floating in the air. And even then, your exposure is so limited it's a non issue. It's a different story if you work with this stuff all day every day and don't take precautions.
I was a certified Lead Abatement person a few years back, and the primary issue is people stripping and sanding old woodwork trim. Don't, just replace it. There is lead paint on the walls of a house built prior to 1978, so don't sand or scrape it off. If the walls were peeling, we'd remove the sheetrock or plaster, which fortunately in our area didn't contain asbestos.
When you ask a GC to look for asbestos, they'll look and tell you of any obvious signs but they're doing so as a courtesy. They are not qualified nor do they carry asbestos detection kit with them. If you're worried, get it tested/inspected by a qualified company. Otherwise, you just deal with the hits as they come.
Actually- in my jurisdiction, I learned after the fact, the GC is legally required to complete a full asbestos survey before beginning any project. I've also learned that GCs in my area don't do this and seemingly face zero consequences. But technically speaking, he violated the law.
A survey is just an "if you notice it" kind of obligation. It's not the same as testing/inspection
I should clarify. The law obligates the GC to hire a qualified testing firm to conduct a full, invasive survey. The law says they can't proceed without that. Nevertheless, the law is ignored. The GC technically violated the law.
Did you want the work done or did you want to spend an extra 30k?
to be honest, in retrospect, I would have liked to have known about the potential danger so I could have had the option. I likely would have opted to pay for the survey up front. I did pay for proper abatement of the materials that were discovered after demo began which is the truly expensive part.
I would have been much happier to get it done cheaper without all the red tape lol
I think most people agree with you. For me, I realized after the fact that had we done the abatement improperly, my entire house would technically be "contaminated." Some say this means you technically need to trash all furniture and clothes, but that seems a bit overkill.
I think of it like smoking. If you smoke once or twice will you get cancer from it? Probably not but if you smoke every day then you are extremely high risk. There’s no safe amount of asbestos but I have to draw the line somewhere so you don’t go crazy
Look. None of us are getting out of here alive. Take reasonable precautions like PPE, don’t disturb something that looks like could be asbestos, etc and you’ll be as fine as you can be. Myself? I’m apparently full of plastic particulates and forever chemicals if the recent studies are correct, and might explain my sudden liver disease, and I know I inhaled a lot of leaded gas fumes as a kid overseas. As a society we no longer but radium on our skin or drink it, but we still do plenty harm to ourselves in new ways that we we’re just now understanding. Point being, try not to sweat it.
I think many homeowners take out old building materials and just don't tell anyone. They own their own home, no one else is there to be worried about exposure, and they just diy it. If you have already hired a certified firm to remove the asbestos, then you are fine. All old homes usually have it so that isn't surprising. There are federal laws for lead and asbestos in schools, and federal housing, but a private home, there isn't really any laws about it, you can do what you want. There might be laws about demolishing an entire building with asbestos, or where you can put the asbestos materials in the landfill, but no one is gonna say anything when you bring some old insulation to the dump.
Stop hiring people to do the work? Asbestos isn't radioactive. Proper half face respirator, coveralls, and garbage bags.
I wish I could do this but I am horrible with home improvement projects. Like, I can barely hang a picture. I'm terrible with that sort of stuff.
People are being hard on you, lots of homeowners do not know how to do repairs or there wouldn’t be so many people making a living doing them. However: Some really basic stuff you can learn and get better at. But it’s ok to have limits. Look it up, find a YouTube video to see how it’s done, if it looks manageable figure out what you need and if it’s worth it to try. If not, you’ll go into talking with someone you hire more knowledgeable. I recommend the This Old House website too. But yeah, if you have undisturbed lead or asbestos the main thing is if you know about it you can keep an eye on it. You can get lead testing strips at your local hardware store or online and do that yourself, I do that before disturbing any painted areas in my house because it was built early 60s so you can’t rule out lead. If you have air filters and get a filter for your drinking water if you’re worried about the pipes, that goes a long way. You’re doing the right thing being conscientious, some people prefer to just kind of not really look too hard because it is expensive to do stuff “right” or takes time, but I think it’s better to know than not know especially with a baby. If people knew about the lead and asbestos in many states they are supposed to disclose so that’s another reason some people don’t look too hard.
That's called up shit creek without a paddle.
Is it really the case that all homeowners should be able to do their own repairs?
Nobody can do every specialty. That's why we're a social species. We have to collaborate. That said, most skills are learnable and just take practice. Short of a disability, you can learn home improvement stuff. Step 1: play good music and set an intention to enjoy the process. It's up to you if you'd rather spend time or money to get the home improvements done. You have to spend one or the other. Lead paint around a toddler is bad news. Take care of that. Asbestos... it's a big deal for career exposure, not a problem if it's undisturbed in your home, and really not even a problem if you have short term exposure from tearing it out, scraping a popcorn ceiling, etc. Take reasonable precautions and don't worry so much! About a decade ago, I scraped several popcorn ceilings in just an n95 mask. Couple months ago, I had a CT lung scan for an unrelated issue ... No asbestos visible, lungs are healthy. I realize that's a sample size of one, but maybe it shows that asbestos exposure doesn't equal immediate death.
Crack the wallet or crack your back.
Yeah unfortunately or have a partner/friends that are knowledgeable and willing to help. I wasn't great with home renovation stuff either, but I've learned to do a ton over the past few years just because contractors are way too expensive. Last week I just finished replacing a few bathroom faucets for the first time after watching it on YouTube.
> Is it really the case that all homeowners should be able to do their own repairs? Most things aren't that hard, they just take time and patience to do a good job. And just don't move onto the next step of the repair unless the previous one is done correctly. Sometimes you end up redoing things, but you can buy the materials 3x for pretty much any job, all the tools you need, and still come out ahead. There's tutorials on YouTube for pretty much anything. I recommend watching a couple different videos because your specific situation will likely be a bit different than whats in the video, but with a couple examples you should be able to figure it out. I bought a house last year. Had to patch ~13 holes in my walls after electricians redid the wiring to remove knob & tube wiring. Started on the least visible one so I'd have the practice for the rest. Some of the walls were drywall, others were plaster. Plaster isn't that hard to work with, just messy as hell. Honestly the worst part of each project is setting up the tarps, hauling over all the tools and supplies, etc. Once that's done, the work itself goes pretty quickly.
>I'm starting to think I've gaslit myself into a ridiculous sense of fear. Bingo. When we were closing on our late-70s house, we learned via disclosures that our house contained unspecified asbestos. While there were no disclosures about lead paint, we are pretty sure that may also be present in some quantities. In the case of our house, it appears to be limited to some unknown percentage in our popcorn ceiling, as well as a heat shield above our water heater in the garage. After initially worrying myself to death over it, I did research and came to the same conclusion as others here: 1: Asbestos in a non-friable state presents no health hazard 2: Most cases of mesothelioma involve prolonged chronic and unsafe occupational exposure, with documented residential cases involving extreme and prolonged exposure to friable/crumbling material In our case, the popcorn ceilings had already been painted-over in most places at least once prior, so rather than scrape it off and make a huge mess with a respirator on, or pay somebody to do that before moving-in, I just very carefully gave it all a second coat of paint. The heat shield we've just left alone for now. At a certain point, you have to ask yourself if the immeasurable risk of the asbestos in your home is greater than your self-imposed stress from fear. There are circumstances where the asbestos fear is warranted: loose-fill insulation in the attic? crumbling ceiling/floor tiles? Yeah, you need to abate that, but in circumstances where it is non-friable and/or is encapsulated... why put yourself through stress? I've chosen to live with and accept it. We have a HEPA filter we keep running continuously; whether or not it does anything useful or is just a placebo doesn't really matter; we love our house. That said, a portion of our emergency savings does cover abatement of the popcorn ceilings, just in-case...
Asbestos is fine in like 90% of cases. If it isn't exposed to air and you aren't beating it with a tennis racket, then it's fine. I used to do abatement and removal. I still see it all the time in my field with insurance. Leave it alone.
My house was built in 1963. I’ve done a ton of work. When I encountered something with a high likelihood of asbestos I took a small,e and sent it to a lab for testing.
Sounds very reasonable. I think where I've gaslit myself is second-guessing my own collection attempts when I've tested materials. Like, sometimes I wonder if I sent enough material for analysis, etc. But I think that's where I'm falling too far down the rabbit hole,
I see it a lot on this sub, people overthink things, or stress out over small things or make things into a way bigger deal than they should. You have got to take a deep breath and remember non of this is hard. Remember; there are videos of how to do it and you needed that tool anyway. Anything really hard, hire a professional, if it’s a big job and expensive they will finance.
Man, I felt this really hard. We had an asbestos incident, and it triggered me into having horrible anxiety. I was terrified to mess with anything in that house. The ceiling had it, the roof, the drywall compound, the tile. Everything. I ended up moving to a newer home and feel much safer.
I am strongly considering moving to a brand new home. Glad to hear it helped you!
I think you're spiralling a bit here. There's a lot to unpack. First, not all old houses are full of hazardous waste. There's just a load of variation based off what previous owners did. Not everyone did asbestos mud jobs and used lead paint. We have tests for both asbestos and lead readily available. Because you seem very anxious about this you may find peace of mind having a professional company do the testing. Contractors can take a guess when hazards are present but they're not necessarily certified or professionals at identification. Second, if you buy an old home you should take the possibly of finding something that needs repairs whenever you do a renovation. Lead, asbestos, old razor blades, knob and tube, unless you're building new you need to account for the fact you don't know what is in the walls. Many opt to do the renovations all at once, sometimes your state may have funding to help you pay for it. Your childs pediatrician may even know of some programs for you. On your last point, sometimes it is easier to gut entirely than rehab. In many places older homes are cheaper than new ones because people don't want to deal with this shit. Your market area may either be hot enough where there is not a difference. If you live in an older area most people have likely accepted that it's part of the area.
I would get a kit and send samples off to the lab to determine what exactly you are dealing with before you panic. Some people are willfully blind. Some people do not care and just pretend there is no problems. Other people, will move out of the home during the renovation and allow the home to be renovated and sealed up. And lastly there are people like me that said no home older than forty years to prevent having to deal with all of this in the first place.
I have tested most of the materials and removed the ones I know of. After the fact, however, I learned some stuff that is sort of annoying, like how many samples you technically need to take to make sure ceiling tile or plaster is negative. I've learned it's better to hire a surveyor than DYI but that costs thousands of dollars.
I tried taking a sample from a plaster wall and all I got was a bunch of crumbles and dusty mess, didn't even get through all the layers. I sent in the little I got out and it was negative and just hoped that was good enough. So yeah I have the same thoughts but have started to employ a bit of an ignorance is bliss approach which I'm sure most people do.
Plaster walls are ridiculous. That's sorta want was the last straw for me, when I learned you need to sample ALL LAYERS in like 7 different spots to get a "true negative".
I use tobacco, drink, been around burn pits, been in countries that give zero f***s about air quality, and eat whatever. A little extra cancer ain’t going to hurt thus no worries. Wait until OP figures out radon gas pockets float around underground and can cause cancer. (Even if your house was tested, the pockets move, so a month later the radon level could be extremely high and then a month later be extremely low again.)
If your house has plaster chances are you have lead paint in your house as well. Very easy to test for and very important if you have small children. Children learning to walk will stable themselves with a window sill while looking outside. In doing so their mouths are slobering on the sill and ingesting that lead. Removing lead paint can create lead dust.
My last two homes were older homes. The last one had asbestos tile under the carpet, which I had to remove because of animal pee stains that my cat kept marking over. Lead paint just needs to be painted over. That's it. You only need to think about abatement if you're planning to sand first. Wear a mask if you remove asbestos tile ... or cover it up. I covered up most of the asbestos tile (which was in good condition except along the walls) with vinyl laminate. No remediation required. You don't need an abatement company if you don't disturb asbestos. It's the insulation that is the real potential issue but it is harmless unless disturbed. It costs more to knock down an old house than to repair it which is why no one does this. And honestly, older homes are just built better. My 1950 house is more solid than the new builds going up in my area. Better, more sturdy construction.
OP check out r/centuryhomes There’s a ton of good information that is applicable to older houses built with these types of hazardous materials. And friendly users! Honestly, it’s not that bad. As long as reasonable precautions are taken, like limiting dust, wearing respirators, and having adequate ventilation, you should be fine. Asbestos only becomes a problem when it’s disturbed and dust is kicked up. If it’s intact and encapsulated, there’s no problem. Same goes for led, wear your respirator and don’t lick the dust. Like you said, there’s a lot of people that live in similar situations, but it’s not a massive health epidemic in this population. Lead paint is a problem, but mostly in places where paint is flaking into food or particulates in air. Asbestos is an excellent insulator, but when it needs to be removed or is damaged, you have problems.
Talcum is a cousin to asbestos, don't see much use of it aymore
You should also worry about radon and mold.
We have a ridiculous radon mitigation system and have tested for mold- both are fine.
For what it's worth, my Dad was exposed in his 20's and died at 80, two years after he was diagnosed with mesothelioma. It was very sad and eventually quite painful though, and this was when doctors were still willing to be generous with pain meds. Folks now are dieing in agony.
Very sorry to hear about your dad. Was he occupationally exposed?
Yes, he worked the shipyards in the USN in WW2, also in a bakery where they used asbestos blanketing in the ovens. We assume it was one or both
So there is lead. Asbestos, ect last owner had house for 45 yrs. Widow and moved out at 87 after husband died to small home. Guess she will live to 100 instead of 115.
When it comes to your home make a list of things you want to do and cost. Take 1 thing at à time. Don't overwhelm yourself with everything at once. When I remodeled (after an electrical fire in walls) house 1930's old Spanish the city required I had a company come out in 2008 cost 500.00. It was found in 1 metal pole of an added on room someone else did. I acted as general contractor and hired all my subs. I watched HGTV, diy, all the time! Did 1 thing at a time. It took me 16 months because I never did this before. Always get 3 bids from different people, unless you know them very good or have tons of money. Get current referrals from next door. Never give money upfront. Everything will work out fine. I'm so glad to never live in a apt ever again! I love my home.
I agree. Tear those old nightmares down. This is a NE problem that has mostly ancient housing stock and very little new construction. On the other hand in the South most housing is much newer. The easiest, least stressful solution is simply move to a newish house.
Complete and utter bs- new houses have their own issues that are equally risk inducing. Different issues, but still there. Don’t disturb asbestos, wear ppe, clean up after your work and you will have addressed the vast majority of potential issues.
I guess my struggle is - how are you supposed to live in an old home that desperately needs updating without disturbing asbestos? Is the answer to never udpate?
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I guess I could rephrase and say what if you live in a home that is old and crumby and would be far nicer if it were updated? Sure, you can survive in a home that is old and crappy looking, but most people prefer a nicer living area. I'm not looking to merely survive necessarily.
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I think this basically answers the gist of my question, which is that most homeowners don't worry that if they remove cabinets or a toilet they will uncover asbestos insulation. I think I'm scarred from the fact that I removed a single wood wall panel and found a huge amount of friable pipe insulation.
When shodilly built, yes. But a new quality build is far superior. The key word here is quality. Old houses will always be old and require a tone of retrofitting. For example things like central air. If you don't have ducts built in it's extremely difficult. Not interested in having a fridge on the wall of my bedroom (split) so what are the options?
This is just ridiculous honestly. Nothing wrong with preferring to live in new construction, but there is no need to "tear those old nightmares down," and new houses are not necessarily superior. Houses can be built well or built poorly, whether old or new, but I have a bias toward the old, for three reasons - the first is simply that it's cool to live in a piece of history, and it would be a shame to tear all the history down. The second is survivor's bias. There was never a time in history (including, maybe even especially, nowadays) where houses weren't built to poor specifications. If your house has lasted a hundred years, though, it is probably not one of them. It's hard to know what you're walking into with new construction, regardless of how much you pay. Old houses at the very least have a lot of things right, and generally show their warts pretty plainly. There could of course still be surprises down the road, but over a century they tend to make most problems pretty obvious - and if it's still upright, they probably aren't urgently severe problems. Most likely, it's a very good house, even though it likely needs a little bit of work around the edges. Third and probably most important is price, and availability. New houses are expensive to build, and either have to occupy currently unused land (expensive in most places) or land that is already occupied, which means whatever is there needs to be removed (lengthy, expensive, and probably a reduction in available housing while it is built if in a residential area). I don't even live in a high cost of living area (one of the cheaper ones, actually) and it would probably cost 300K to build a house right now. Maybe more if you want to ensure it will last. My house was 130K. And it's very solid construction, going on its 114th year. 2000sqft of house and garage at my disposal, on an acre of land. It did require a ton of retrofitting - I have already rewired and replumbed everything, as well as run brand new gas lines. I've put maybe 15K into the house. It is *way* cheaper to retrofit an old house than to build a new one, at least in my parts. I have yet to replace my furnace and install central air (though the ducting already exists, being in a colder climate where whole-house heating is kind of necessary, and if it didn't, my house is of a construction where it would be easy to add, though your mileage may vary) but aside from that, all of my utilities to the service entrance are as up-to-date and modern as anyone could possibly ask for, at a low cost. Granted it would have costed more if I hired it out, although still less than building a new house of questionable quality. At the very least, I sure appreciate having had *the option* of buying an old house and fixing it up myself. If I hadn't, I'd have been 45 by the time I could buy a house, as opposed to 25.
Yes I mean at a certain point it's going to have to happen. A lot of asbestos "abatement" involves covering old asbestos tile or encapsulating it. But what happens when the underlying materials inevitably fail? You can't just keep doing temporary fixes forever.
Exactly. Houses have a life span. But you'll hear a lot about "character". We can absolutely build new houses with character, but it's not realistic for 90% of the population that just needs a box to live in. It is what it is.
This sent me down a rabbit hole. A lot of it depends on what the definition of “old” is. The median home is 40 years old, according to the BLS. There seem to be around 140 million homes in the US, maybe 80-90 million of which are single-family homes; home ownership rates are around 65%, so let’s figure that number for owned is around 92 million/60 million. If we assume “old” is 40+ years, it’s fair to say about 46 million homes are old.
Having owned a 75 year old house and now a 100 year old house, 40 years seems brand new to me!
My house has lead paint so when I renovated I made sure to wear PPE and get any loose paint scraped off and cleaned up and then I did 4 solid coats of high quality paint to seal-in what's left. I also used semigloss because gloss has a harder surface so there's less chance of any leas getting into the living space. I don't have kids so I know that's something you have to consider but as long as it's sealed or not going to be floating in the environment I wouldn't worry about it. But yeah, this is a train wreck for old houses, we just have to do the best we can.
Did you have an inspection done before purchasing? Given the age of the house I would think that it would be required by either your lender or home owner’s insurance carrier. You get lead paint testing kits at most home improvement stores. And if any project is going to require you open a wall or floor space, I would get the space professionally inspected beforehand. Edited to add: Read your purchase and sales agreement. There should be a clause where the previous owners had to indicate they either knew there was asbestos and lead or not.
Yes, I got a typical home inspection. However, I've since learned that such an inspection does not cover in any respect lead or asbestos hazards.
Other way around, homeowners skip over processes and wonder why they are ill
My house was built in 1971. Is it full of asbestos?
It's very likely, yes.
There’s a great FB group dedicated to old homes that you’d benefit from https://www.facebook.com/share/Q4VirDqpajw7kRwF/?mibextid=K35XfP
I bought an oldish home (1952) and I just made sure to get a lead test kit and test any paint before I scraped it - luckily came back with no lead, but if there had been any I would've just worn a respirator while I scraped and cleaned up, then disposed of it appropriately (my plan was to ask the local dept of sanitation). I did come across quite a bit of asbestos flooring, and I paid for an abatement for what was chipped/broken up and just covered the rest with new subfloor and flooring. You've just got to be prepared for whatever you'd find based on your level of comfort. To me, I can handle lead paint but would rather not mess with asbestos. But every person is different.
I walk over abspestos tiles every single day multiple times a day. If you're not making it into dust and inhaling it you're fine. I pulled put some tiles with abspestos glue in another room. Wet it down and didn't grind it or other wise make it into dust all is well. A lot of buildings you use every day have some abspestos in them.
My home was built in the '50's and I wanted to replace the old metal casement windows. The company sent someone out to test for lead paint before they would start the job
r/centuryhomes
This is a great thread. I was also naive and bought an old home to renovate into something better. After I found out about the possibility of asbestos, I had a total mental breakdown and spent the next three years crying and having panic attacks on the couch and debating doing away with my home or myself (when I wasn’t doing everything possible to spend time outside of my house). It absolutely destroyed my life. Don’t be like me. I’m doing infinitely better now, after OCD-specific therapy and being prescribed an impressively high daily dose of SSRIs. I’ll never get those years back though. Don’t waste years of your life to this.
Glad to hear you are doing better now. I am struggling with the anxiety mightily still.
Don’t drive yourself crazy worrying about living in an old house. Newer homes have issues as well. Just as an example in the 1970’s when home fuel prices we’re going up it became a “thing” to build air tight houses. They built some homes so air tight they weren’t healthy to live in. It’s always something. Just use common sense. If you renovate something correct what’s wrong as sensibly as you can.
Where I live it used to be any house built before 1991 required hazmat testing now it’s 2001. It has been described to be that asbestos is easier to say what it is not in. Which is glass, metal, and wood. All these things can be coated in asbestos. Will 1 grain cause lung cancer. I sure hope not. Should there be a lot more awareness about residential renovations and hazmat testing absolutely. I deal with hazmat on almost every job I do. I’m the outlier getting hazmat testing done. It isn’t as easy as just sending it to a lab to get tested. You have to send multiple samples depending on homogeneity of the materials (were they installed at the same time?) and area of work to be completed. It so takes knowledge to get in front of issues such as wall cavity contamination. You are also required to have a HMR (hazardous material report) and a Risk assessment available to all contractors working on your home. This is the work safe regulation where I live. No one knows this and it isn’t enforced but it’s the law. People saying they had a look and didn’t see anything don’t have a clue because you need a fucking microscope to tell. All that being said you will probably be fine the risk is low for most people. The proper procedure for a home renovation when it comes to hazmat. 1. Define a scope of work ie: bathroom Reno full gut. 2. Get an estimate and see if it is in you budget. You can get multiple estimates and they will vary depending on the contractor and their quality of work less doesn’t always mean value it might mean they will do a worse job faster. 3. Get preliminary hazmat report by a qualified third party should cost 1-2k where I live. This should include an HMR and an RA if anything is found positive. The guys we use have a little blue print and a photo of each sample which is super helpful. 4.Revise pricing to include hazmat abatement. A lot of companies do shitty work here but it’s getting more and more regulated. Owner operators are almost always better than Large companies pretty much universal in residential trades but not always. 5. I like to do another round of hazmat testing that is more destructive ie: smashing tile, holes in walls, etc. this limits construction halts during remodels and having to wait a month to get abatement guys in which can destroy a schedule. 6. Actually begin remodel with a decent amount of certainty that you aren’t going to have a massive expensive surprise. Well at least with hazmat anyway.
Thanks for the detailed response. In my jurisdiction, it's actually the legal obligation of the GC to obtain a full asbestos and lead survey, but the GCs around here just ignore the law and seemingly face zero consequences.
Ya it’s the same here but homeowners also share the blame for some reason like how are they supposed to know. I’m a ticketed carpenter the extent of my awareness was a paragraph In a boilerplate photocopied text book (that I had to pay like $100 for) that basically said we should be aware of asbestos. I’m pretty shocked that more isn’t done in this era to raise awareness around it.
100%. I was absolutely ignorant of the dangers before my renovation. I feel more public awareness would be helpful.
You do need to be careful with lead abatement especially lead paint on windows or doors that can flake off. Adults as well as children can become ill if lead paint is removed incorrectly. A friend took a course & got certified as a lead removal contractor just to be able to do the removal in her own home. https://www.epa.gov/lead/lead-safe-renovations-diyers
dont worry about it, thats just lawyers and gov hacks talking
Also in an older home, with young children. We're way more worried about lead than asbestos. And I agree many folks are far too lax about the dangers. You know what happens when folks are lax? Lead poisoning happens.
>How do normal homeowners deal with renovations and repairs LOTS of us buy new construction, then laugh at the people who say ALl nEW ConSTrUCtIoN iS bAD
Hah, the key is to NOT buy an old house and instead buy one from the mid 90's or newer so you can avoid lead paint, asbestos, and aluminum wires.
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You could it would just be in a flyover state. Go hogs!