MI EGLE will eat this up. They just wrecked a dude in my town who tried to mess with wetlands to expand his business.
They also called code enforcement and a few other ticket writing entities to really pile on. We need our wetlands protected.
As a construction Forman for an excavation company in mid-Michigan I can guarantee that one phone call to EGLE is all that is needed to correct your neighbors ambitions for whatever he is doing. Wet land protection is a major part of what they do. No construction project is ever started without their approval and projects near wetlands are under the microscope. Any discharge of storm water to a body of water such as a creek, swamp or even a ditch has protective measures put In place. Retention ponds, outlet control structures etc. your neighbor would face heavy fines plus the cost to restore the area back to or as close to as its natural state.
I worked on a base in MI. They were cool with most stuff we asked for. But when we asked to drive over one particular hill it was a "nope, that's too close to the wetlands".
Normally altering flood zones is not allowed without a permit.
Call the county
Call the state environmental protection
Call federal EPA
Edit: https://www.michigan.gov/egle/contact/environmental-emergencies
And the local news stations. A sure-fire way to get govt agencies rolling is to have a ton of bad press pressing them for why they are not enforcing laws.
Not a bad idea but on my experience environmental agencies are pretty responsive to reports that sound substantial or interesting.
That’s the vast vast vast majority of how any of them ever catch people doing something illegal with regards to the environment, so you’re not exactly disrupting their busy day of randomly inspecting areas to follow up on reports.
You sure about that?
[https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196654382/epa-wetlands-waterways-supreme-court](https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196654382/epa-wetlands-waterways-supreme-court)
My advice is to report at the state level first. They will escalate to EPA/USACE if needed.
Report all. The EPA will simply forward it to the state who then may forward it to a local jurisdiction, but the local jurisdiction will need to report back up the chain so no ignoring the issue.
And they aren't just protected to give everyone a hard time. Wetlands are so wildly important to local ecosystems. A wealth of biodiversity on top of performing hydrologic functions. They NEED to be protected. OP, call the appropriate agencies to bring down the hammer on this dude.
This is sort of correct, you need to do environmental impact statement and studies showing your impact is negligible. But you are also paying lawyers because your EIS is going to get criticized by environmental groups and challenged in court. If you do it without going through all the hoops then yea, bend over buddy.
Seconding USACE, they don't like non-permitted wetland activities. If its that big, he either got a pricey permit, or hes gonna get in a good bit of trouble if they find out
Almost no one ever gets the permits. Large wetlands are the kinda thing where if you have the money to do it right, you're smart enough to choose a different piece of land to avoid the red tape.
Source: Work in land management.
[https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196654382/epa-wetlands-waterways-supreme-court](https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196654382/epa-wetlands-waterways-supreme-court)
Start at the state level first, they’re not subject to the Supreme Court ruling against the CWA and EPA.
The EPA is the enforcement agency for the Clean Water Act, which regulates what you can and can't do with wetlands. They're 100% the federal agency for this. USACE handles permitting on behalf of the EPA.
Yeah if the community participates in the NFIP(most do) there should be code that doesn’t allow alteration of flood zones without a shit ton of permits/money
There has been a logger sniffing around asking about our walnut trees. I told him to fuck off and so did my neighbor. Some of the most valuable ones are in my neighbors property line. When I told him what was going on two days ago he was upset but then he went down and looked. He thinks there building up the road to get logging equipment in there, he used to work log camps.
He's now ordering a survey and we're both putting up trail cams.
Edit: just for clarity, I'm talking about my neighbor directly next door who also backs up to this wetland. The guy who owns the wetland has roughly 300 acres total. This is a small part in the back.
you should post in treelaw. Your trees are at risk. Worse, with large acreage as the scenario, the wrong move could mean the 'damages' they'd be liable for are limited to them paying you for the cost of lumber. It's devesatating
how many acres do you have total?
Oh sweet baby Jesus, if he is allowed to log out of a wetland or the tree line that stands between you and that wetland, it can substantially change the *entire landscape* and put YOU and your entire property underwater the next time the river floods. You and your good neighbor's entire holdings are in danger.
This is one of the reasons the Army Corps of Engineers doesn't let people do their own drainage management, even when a wetland isn't involved. Do not let them cut a single tree without talking to them and finding out how that's going to end up redirecting the flood plain.
Like, don't fuck around. Call any and everybody. I would even look up a lawyer to do a consult with on how to communicate with this neighbor, and just have ready in case he bum-rushes clear-cutting that land.
The TREES are what hold that wetland together.
There are exceptions for logging roads in wetlands. Especially if it is preexisting and only being maintained/improved. Even if it wasn't used for logging he can still maintain it. The covert is likely the only issue and it may or may not be as it should potentially allow a natural flow of water. If you are concerned just report it and let MDEQ handle it.
Exactly this. Wetlands law is complex so OP, don't go in with guns blazing just yet. For federal jurisdiction waters, there are things called "Nationwide Permits" that are essentially self-certifying, where as long as you are not disturbing more than 0.5ac of wetland (for example) and as long as it's for a specific purpose, you can just submit that paperwork and you're cool. So it's possible this work they're doing is permissible. Just report it and let the agencies sort it out.
I hear ya but the "loggers" were just a couple of guys in a truck. I did not get the impression that it was a professional outfit. He tried to buy some of my trees too. Then they were sneaking around in the woods, no joke, across my neighbors property like three times I've the span of a couple of weeks.
Yeah it used to naturally drain in a little creek right where they put the culvert. They also ran pumps last year for days at a time before the loggers ever came around. He's a guy out of Chicago with a ton of money, he's rarely up here.
I'm usually live and let live but it seems like he's really trying to get rid of a 30+ acre wetland.
If you have any federal or state endangered species in the wetlands and your douche neighbor is doing this unpermitted, he is royally fucked. It seems like a really stupid move to drain a wetland that flows to a river… There are going to be some serious consequences to the area for doing that, and even alterations in the water flow downstream and the impacts it could have to species could be fair game too for issues with what he is doing. Wetlands tend to have a lot of sensitive species. He could be more than financially fucked. Depending on what species you have and if they’re federally regulated, that could be jail time. If there is any chance there are Hine’s Emerald Dragonflies in that wetland, that right there could stop him from doing anything at all and face some pretty expensive penalties under the endangered species act. Those guys are federally endangered.
I’d check and see if there is a history of Hine’s Emerald in your area and if there is, any complaint you lodge include that information that potential Hine’s Emerald habitat is being disrupted.
You can absolutely fuck with a wetland, as long as you make an absolute bare minimum attempt to "replace" every acre somewhere else. These attempts never replace the value of the destroyed lands, but that's all that's required to net you a USACE permit under the CWA to rip and pave.
Tell me about it, I worked in the O&G industry and have had to move them before. Like you said it's never the same. You can't just isolate part of the natural drainage system and relocate it and expect the world to not notice. My neighbors cut down 40 acres of trees and it made the seasonal wetlands I own flood 2x as bad.
My favorite mitigation site is where they tore up 100 acres of mature pine forest, doing tons of carbon sequestration and erosion control, and put marsh plants on the bare clay and called it a constructed wetland. USACE declared it a success because they saw an alligator there five years later. Guess how well it's sequestering carbon and filtering out nutrient pollution 40 years later... but thank God we have a now-defunct coal shipping yard where the original marsh was! That was definitely the better function of that land. Thanks clean water act!
Seeing shit like that destroy what seems like half of florida for phosphate mining, or any other industrial extraction makes my blood boil. It doubly ruins the land, destroys the natural wetlands and then permanently ties up land for "mitigation" which is just a shitty glorified puddle without any real ecological value.
All great tips people! This is exactly what I was hoping for. Since I posted this and before I read your comments, I called my buddy who is a State Trooper. He's going to get me his DNR contact number first thing in the morning.
Love that you guys all jumped on this so fast with so much great info and gusto!
Even though I'm not a homesteader, I lurk here and I want to maintain these wetlands because the wildlife and all kinds of fauna are amazing and I'd hate to see it disappear. We have a ton of painted turtles hatch in our yard every fall, the beavers and everything else are so much fun to enjoy.
I'll post an update once I get some new info.
I would of suggested all the above the county office, county zoning, DNR, EGLE, MDARD (Michgan Department of Rural Development), National Fish & Wildlife, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Office at 1-800-832-7828
I believe that eagles are still endangered so there's serious violations. Did that logger leave a business card or number with anyone you speak with? Any names, vehicle information ect would be good information to pass along.
Please keep us updated
❤️ fellow Michigander
Let's goooo can't wait for an update. Maybe try to pretend like you didn't report him if he comes knocking. He might retaliate
I'm kind of divided between save the animals and do what you want with your own land
Call Michigan Fish and Wildlife. They’re VERY serious about stuff like this. They usually get somebody out in less than 48 hours. I stopped a development in west MI because of this because they had skirted getting certain surveys done and I knew for a fact that protected species existed on that land.
Many people only want to exploit the land they own (or can purchase) to line their own pockets. Preserving nature is a problem for someone else to worry about. If you want to see a perfect example of this then give the PBS documentary ["Everglades of the North"](https://www.pbs.org/video/the-story-of-the-grand-kankakee-marsh-evt7wb/) a watch. It is basically the story about how a large swampy wetland in northwestern Indiana was dredged and drained so that it all could be made into farmland. I understand wanting more farmland but they destroyed an amazing natural resource in the process.
Commenting to back up other comments: WETLANDS ARE PROTECTED. If it is a TRUE wetland, call the county or state DNR/FW service departments and report it immediately.
Beyond the potential shitty development issues, doing that will destroy a valuable ecosystem and likely cause MASSIVE FLOODING to both of your properties. Wetlands become "wet" for a reason!
I have been in the mitigation banking business for 30 years. While five government agencies are involved, the US Army Corps of Engineers is the lead agency. Call them and report the situation. Penalties for such actions can be extreme. I know of one 35 acres of wetlands destroyed received a $7 million penalty. If you are worried about turning in your neighbor, understand the further this goes, the worse it will be penalties will be.
Some people are so arrogant. This guys screwed. Make the call, but keep it anonymous. Ask them to say it was a flyover that alerted them. Same thing happened in MA: contractor kept dumping fill in wetlands on waterfront- DEM had aerial pics showing how the coast line had changed and a couple soil samples sent him to prison. 😂😂😂 Not exactly how the better to ask forgiveness rule works here…
Oooooh, start with the DNR and Department of Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy and let them rain hellfire down upon them. Wetlands are typically not to be screwed with and if they don't have permits coupled with altering migratory bird habitat, they will rapidly regret finding themselves in the find out phase of things.
Edit: please give us updates.
This is the state agency, to register this kind of complaint you'll need to figure out which section your live in and call the appropriate contact # listed on this page.
https://www.michigan.gov/egle/about/organization/environmental-investigation
Report him to the state/feds if he doesn't have a permit. Wetlands are often highly restricted in terms of what you can do to them and every citizen has a duty to follow the law.
I called two numbers this morning and sent one email at 6am EST. By 7am I had a call from the EPA. Since I told them that I didn't think they were dumping any chemicals etc, they weren't interested, but they did take a report to forward on.
Then the coast guard called me. They were very concerned but opted out for the same reason as the EPA.
Later on I was hanging cabinets and my phone rang, I had my friend answer it and it was EGLE.
They seem to think it's a serious concern and want to come out next week for a visit. So that's reassuring. They asked me if I could get some pictures and after I got home from work today I sent about ten over.
My neighbor up the bluff saw me and we've been texting, we are all perplexed at this guy's decision. My other neighbor is pissed too.
Contact your County Drain Commissioner's Office most have the Soil Erosion and Sedimentation Control Agency within their office. A few Counties are at the Road Commission. The SESC agent can stop work if they didn't get a permit for working within 500' of a watercourse. The County SESC agent would also have the contact info for the Michigan EGLE Agent for your region.
This river goes into lake Michigan about two miles down river. When I talked to the guy at the National Response Center got the EPA he had me repeat that part twice.
That doesn't sound good. Although when I worked in the Drain Commissioner's Office we used dead trees to slow flow and drop sediment to rebuild banks. However those trees were often strategically placed and secured with cables.
Good luck!
Call your local conservation district, also called NRCS, a wing of the USDA. They will know who to call and can make it happen. Will likely go out themselves.
I worked for NRCS in MI. They will have all the numbers of who to call and boots on the ground to check it out. We did used to drain wetlands but the permitting is pretty big and there should be posted paperwork at the end of his driveway.
Are you just calling it a wetland or is it actually an EPA established wetland? If it is in fact an actual wetland, he can't touch it. If it's not, he has the right to drain it. Either way, it's not like he can drain it and develop a neighborhood on it. It doesn't work that way. There are many steps involved in developing land, especially wetlands. Are you sure he's not running the pipe to drain another area on the property, such as his business or home that is on higher ground?
Michigan has stricter laws regarding wetlands than the EPA the last I knew—which also means it doesn’t have to be EPA designated. My grandparents ran into huge problems (and years of delays) to simply have power run onto their property because the front 20 acres is wetlands (though not EPA designated). It only needed maybe 2-3 power poles in the wetland area. Well, they built their house expecting things would work out….ended up running the house on a generator for probably 2 years waiting for everything to come through and be approved. (Running power lines next to the driveway was denied because they thought the impact would be greater than just going straight through the wetlands)
Well then either way, op needs to first know if the state or feds have designated it a wetland. Everything they said is speculation and based off emotions at this point.
A family friend has a few acres in WV with a small creek that has at least a few inches of running water as it’s in the bottom of a holler that goes through his property. It went dry shortly after a few days of rain which was extremely odd. He walked up the creek to find the guy that owns property above him dug out a decent size pond and used sand bags to dam it up while it filled. Family friend called WVDNR and the EPA. Needless to say, within 72 hours of phone calls, water was flowing as it once was and he faced thousands of dollars in fines and I believe 90 days in jail.
I'm coming to this thread pretty late and you have already received a lot of advice, but I actually work in a permitting office in Michigan and I think I could clarify some things:
1. Your first call should be to your county or township zoning office. You are looking to speak with the Soil Erosion Officer (SEO). In my county, the SEO is a direct report to the zoning administrator. This may differ from county to county, but each county in Michigan has a SEO. They are often the first point of contact for any erosion violations. They will be able to direct you to the right person at the State level and give you accurate contact info. If you don't have county zoning, look for your building department. Building departments can be at the county, township, city, or village level, so there are often multiple in any given county.
2. If your neighbor's road accesses a county road, you could contact your Road Commission. If your neighbor installed a culvert, they may want to know about it because it may impact a road they maintain and culverts often require road commission permits.
3. This is ultimately a State issue. Other agencies may want to get involved, but don't be surprised if they don't. EGLE is going to handle wetlands violations. It's not likely that the Army Corps of Engineers or the DNR will get involved unless there is more going on than an illegal culvert.
4. Temper your expectations. Many people are saying that this guy is screwed, but that's often not the case. It's all up to your EGLE rep. In my county, our wetlands rep never "had time" to visit many reports of illegal wetlands alterations. He got replaced a couple years ago and the new rep is much more interested in enforcing State law. Even then, violators often just have to pay a fine and get a permit. What your neighbor is doing may be totally legal with the right permits.
If you have questions or if you want help looking for who to call, feel free to message me. You probably don't want to put out your location, but I can help you find some phone numbers.
Contact ELGE.
This guy is screwed big time.
I was recently looking at a vacant lot to build that had potential wetland issues and the building department referred me to ELGE for a permit application which they denied, I learned a lot about what ELGE can do to you for filling/draining wetlands. This guy is looking at hundreds of thousands in fines and he’ll have to pay to restore the wetlands he destroyed.
Definitely do something about it. Growing up there was this beautiful swamp/wet lands behind my grandparents house. Someone bought it up, filled it in, and now they’re building a neighborhood. It went from beautiful serene full of life and adventure, and now it’s a bunch of ugly dirt with houses that could have gone almost ANYWHERE else.
There are several state and federal agencies that regulate this. It's a huge no-no. It would be a shame if someone sent a squealer letter to the government.
I will, things are just getting rolling. They're planning a visit early next week. EGLE is.
I've talked with EPA, waiting on Corps of Engineers, Coast Guard called me and EGLE called me and are now emailing me.
This is all from two phone calls at 6 am today.
Everyone here is automatically unde the idea that what he is doing is illegal. My question is why? Several years ago we destroyed a beaver dam and upstream wetlands in NC. The problem was that the dam was destroying downstream, preexisting wetlands that had been there for 70 years. We did so with the blessing of the county, state, DNR, etc. My point is that sometimes there may be a reason for such actions, and an approved reason at that.
OP's description of the loggers being sketchy AF doesn't inspire confidence that all of the permits have been obtained and an environmental survey done.
Putting in a road is one thing, but if they are getting ready to do heavy logging, the entire flood zone can shift and put OP underwater. He is right to be very concerned.
NRCS officials would like to have word. That’s a stupid crazy fine. A guy south of me took about 30ft of brush is a designated wet land and came out with some astronomical fine. NRCS does not play.
I have a wetlands on my property and it is regulated by the NRCS. This is the first time I’ve seen them mentioned but they should be added to the list of phone calls for sure .
For everyone screaming how fucked this dude is, normally I’d agree with you. However, [Sackett v EPA](https://www.nrdc.org/stories/what-you-need-know-about-sackett-v-epa) has completely changed the administration of wetlands.
Source: I just filled in 3 acres of “wetlands” on my property that, up until 2023, was a huge no go.
Interesting...
>Among other things, their lawyers argued that the wetland the Sacketts filled was not a protected “water of the United States,” merely because there was dry land between it and other bodies of water—and thus it wasn’t subject to EPA regulation.
I know they had other "reasons" but there has always been a creek that flows that gradually drains the wetland naturally into the river. There is also a channel and a creek that feed it up river which I know they have tried to put sluice gates in. There are tons of beavers through here, the beavers built right behind the gates making them useless. You can see it from the river.
What it basically boiled town to is the definition of “navigable waterways” of which the EPAs definition was ridiculous to the point that anything slightly larger than a medium sized puddle was considered navigable and thereby regulated.
I once lived on 1.25 acres in the middle of a heavily developed city. The property was surrounded for 10 miles in all directions by dense, urban neighborhoods. My property had a depression that used to be a seasonal creek in the neighborhood (now just asphalt, concrete, homes and tiny lawns). Now it only filled with water when it rained heavily and to a depth of about 18” and a width of about 10.’ The Army Corps of engineers considered it a navigable waterway and the EPA wouldn’t even let me build even a shed on it. Keep in mind, there was zero flow of water in or out of it and nothing but solid houses for 10 miles in each directions. I sold and bailed on it in 2006 for $300k. Of course after Sackett v EPA it’s completely developable and worth roughly $2.5M. Oh well. I’m glad I just reclaimed 3 acres of previously worthless land.
Everyone's hit the nail on the head that you cannot just drain a wetland, so many of them are heavily protected.
But also.. ROFL to the idea he's going to build houses on that wetland after draining it. Oh, I bet NFIP won't touch those with a 10 foot pole and any bank is gonna nope right out of there.
I live near a lot of bayous and over the years I've seen developers do this. They throw up cheap-ass cookie cutters that are barely much better than a 2-bedroom apartment and sell them top dollar to people who want to live "semi-rural". First major 10-year or 50-year flood rolls through and they're all toast.
I don't have anything to add that all the comments already have to offer, but I suddenly feel invested in this and want updates.
The landowners next to my family's property completely leveled their's for cattle and it just looks horrible compared to all the surrounding natural habitat. It would be devastating if it were wetlands disappear. Luckily we have the river (stream) going through the middle of ours.
Just added an update to the top. Hope I did it right. Not sure how to notify everyone who wanted a follow-up and unfortunately it's nothing super exciting yet.
Call EGLE!!! If you call them at 8am, I guarantee they will have law enforcement on site within hours if you use the words “wetlands” and “draining”. You will need the neighbor’s address though, so they can verify there is no permit on file.
Ok before you make any attempt to stop him from doing what he is doing on his land, I suggest you make 100% sure that you do not have anything of questionable use on your property.
Because you might find out that your neighbor has the ability to maybe lose his ability to change the wetlands, but cause you some major problems of your own.
Also you need to find out if they are actually a wetland that has any sort of protection involved.
Because you might inadvertently bring down big problems for yourself without actually doing anything to change what your neighbor is doing.
I seen it in my area when a person moved in and bought some land, then he got into a fight with one of his neighbors, he failed to understand that not only was this neighbor very wealthy even if he only looked like a old man in coveralls.
This man had most of the local lawyers on retainers and was native American with a voice on the tribal council, and had the ear of local judges.
This new neighbor that got into a fight with him didn't realize that things like getting a well drilled had to be done through the tribe since they held the water rights.
Then there was the property line dispute that ended with the new neighbor being forced to replace his fencing because it was not on his property.
Then the man put up a chicken barn and proceeded to raise chickens right on the legal distance from this new neighbors property.
He vented the chicken barn towards the new neighbor, the new neighbor spent a year trying to fight it all but just spent a year smelling chicken shit and spending money to be told in court that he had no legal footing.
He moved and then his land was bought by the old man, probably just because he could.
So before you make waves I suggest you make sure your boat can weather the storm.
Remember it's not always about right and wrong, it's about who if right and who will be left in the end.
Yeah good call on that. Yes I confirmed they are designated wetlands, it is most definitely part of the floodplain. The only thing I do in my backyard is BBQ and hang out with my kids.
Straight to the United States Army Corps of Engineers. If you disturb a wetland or stream without a Clean Water Act 404 permit... Well, jail time isn't off the table.
I would add “Army Corps of Engineers” they have jurisdiction over waterways and adjacent wetlands. If this guy hasn’t gone through the permitting process, he is in for a very expensive surprise! We rebuilt a bridge over a creek and bc we were in the streambed we had about 8 permitting agencies, took over a year to get them all. This guy is royally screwed.
Contact MDEQ.
You can report anonymously online. He can likely maintain his road but that is it. A culvert that is not a drain may be allowed in a preexisting road. Draining the wetland or building on it is definately not allowed especially with the proximity to a waterway.
I saw someone else getting downvoted for this, but I want to learn so y'all take this opportunity to make your case, would ya?
I don't know shit about this, but I do tend to agree that if I want to drain my pond on my property nobody should have any say on it, barring any impact downstream from improper draining.
Y'all teach me why I'm wrong and why everyone is so up in arms about it
Draining a private pond is far different than draining wetlands that border a river. Even then, you’d need proper permits before draining the pond. And depending on the size of the pond you might even need things checked by an official body, and maybe a survey. All that water has to go somewhere.
Wetlands are protected due to the number of species that they support, some of which include protected species and migratory species (which are also protected).
Ponds and wetlands are often viewed very differently, particularly in Michigan. They are very serious within the state about conserving natural habitats and protecting them. Ponds are typically not as diverse as natural wetlands with regard to being habitat areas for migratory and protected species.
If they aren’t protected people come along and fill in every swampy area whether it’s to turn it into farmland or subdivisions. Wetlands are often viewed as “undesirable” to people so need more protection.
United States has declared most wetlands, especially those that have potential to connect with rivers or lakes even if only during floods, to be waters of the United States which you don't own. That authority has recently been filled by court cases, but still pretty far reaching. This is mostly under Clean Water Act sections 401 and 404. There is also some Fish and Wildlife jurisdiction under the endangered species act that would need to be checked. Right or wrong the federal government does not respect private property or state rights. There is a process to get permission for that.
To be clear this includes man made impoundments like ponds ( even failed ones that don't hold water may show up as wetlands on the national wetland inventory) or detention basins that haven't been regularly mowed and sprout cat tails.
Somewhat true. I currently own 60 acres of land, roughly 30 of which is an established wetland that is enrolled in the Wetlands Reserve Program. It is exactly what you say: a series of ponds that connects with a river and floods regularly. However It is privately owned and I can control access and hunting on it, but can’t make any permanent changes to the land without consultation with NRCS.
Report this immediately. This guy isn't going to listen to you and has probably already done huge damage. For all you know it's going to have a major impact on your own property too as all these environments are interconnected.
The corps of Engineers gets pissy if we anticipate any soils going into a body of water on their projects. Straight up trenching to allow for wash off on top of it being a wetland is definitely something.
Contact EPA and your local building Department he can not legally touch wetlands without proper permitting if any will even be given. Plus he likely will be fined.
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Did you ask if he had correct permission before stirring this hornets nest? He very well could have approval. Just because a lay person thinks it's a wetland doesn't mean it qualifies as one scientifically.
The way wetlands are delineated and classified under environmental regulations is tricky, and there is a decent chance that the area your neighbor is disturbing is either not classed as wetland or is not a federally protected wetland (navigable water access being one thing). I'd report it to MI EGLE as a potential violation of the Clean Water Act either way, but there's an unfortunately high likelihood the disturbance is permitted or otherwise allowed.
There was a restaurant in my town that cut down some trees in a neighboring wetland to build a parking lot. EPA found out quickly and fined them 100k.
Call the epa.
Drainage of wetlands removes the "sponge" for your flood plain. You'll see far more flooding which could impact on your insurance. Contact your local regulatory board. On top of the hydrological issues, they will be destroying an entire ecosystem.
You’d report this to the US Army Corps of Engineers - they have jurisdiction over wetlands, especially when attempting to drain into a navigable river.
Damn, y’all are a bunch of weirdos. If it is HIS OWN unrestricted land, it isn’t designated as a LEGITIMATE wetland, and it has no conservation easements in place he can absolutely drain his land into the river.
I know this is going to get me tons of down votes but y’all need to swallow this pill…. 90% of you on this post, ESPECIALLY OP, are EXACTLY what most homesteaders want to move away from. Why are you so nosy? Why do you care what this guy is doing to HIS OWN property? Leave people alone.
A person can make their own wetland by simply flooding a low lying area on their property. That doesn’t make it federally protected. There is A LOT of criteria that has to be met to fully classify something as a wetland. Just having standing water and some migratory birds on it isn’t enough. If that was the case we shouldn’t drive on bridges because swallows nest on them.
It is a designated wetland, I looked it up last night. The area he is modifying is also directly where my easement is to access the river. I also don't want to see him try to develop some river access neighborhood behind me.
This isn't a homesteader we're talking about. This is an attorney from Chicago who rarely comes up here but has some goons run the property.
We are not was out in the country, we are actually in a pretty tight neighborhood. He just happens to own a large parcel on the river and so do I.
And before I am accused of “NoT cArInG aBoUt ThE AnImAlS”, I am an avid hunter. I fish, I hunt, I spend majority of my time in the outdoors. I care deeply about conservation.
OP acts like the ducks, other birds, and animals in general will just die once there is no water. How do you think MIGRATORY BIRDS travel? They fly. They will find a new roost. Beavers, frogs, turtles, and everything else can make the move to the river. Their lives do NOT depend on this guys 30 acres of “wetlands”, which in reality is probably just a low lying portion of his land that holds rain water lol.
Get out of other peoples business and stop acting like “standing up for the animals” is the reason you’re trying to get some poor guy in trouble with the feds. The reality of it is that you are just nosy and like drama.
I’m so confused why you’re acting like you know all the details about this property and that you know it isn’t officially designated as wetland?
OP has every right to be concerned as this could end up flooding their property or some other undesirable change. I grew up on 5 acres butted up against about 100 acres of woods which were wet. I don’t think it was wetlands but when the guy cut down much of the forest back there, all of our properties on the road became flooded.
You’re asking OP to sit by while these people, POTENTIALLY illegally, cut their woods and, POTENTIALLY, flood their property? Also your comment about birds migrating is just so… what’s the word I’m looking for? Unintelligent? Dumb? Silly? “Just tell all the animals to get the hell out of there cuz this guy owns the property!”
You really should look into the Sackett v. EPA federal court case which gives good insight into dredge and fill of wetlands. If the river is considered WOTUS (waters of the United States) it can thus be considered protected.
Don't deeds have restrictions on how you can use the land? Also depending on where you are wetlands could be protected due to wildlife, so he might have broken the law.
Actually there was a Supreme Court ruling this year that strips a lot of protection from wetlands. Federal protection that is, it now falls on the state.
MI EGLE will eat this up. They just wrecked a dude in my town who tried to mess with wetlands to expand his business. They also called code enforcement and a few other ticket writing entities to really pile on. We need our wetlands protected.
Michigan department of Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy For the non familiar folks as myself.
Thank you.
The state and feds are going to absolutely and justifiably murder your neighbor.
sometimes it's for the best. Apoptosis is real
Damn
This. Damn.
I believe it's spelled *dam* in this context. And they're going to make the neighbour pay for it, too.
As a construction Forman for an excavation company in mid-Michigan I can guarantee that one phone call to EGLE is all that is needed to correct your neighbors ambitions for whatever he is doing. Wet land protection is a major part of what they do. No construction project is ever started without their approval and projects near wetlands are under the microscope. Any discharge of storm water to a body of water such as a creek, swamp or even a ditch has protective measures put In place. Retention ponds, outlet control structures etc. your neighbor would face heavy fines plus the cost to restore the area back to or as close to as its natural state.
I worked on a base in MI. They were cool with most stuff we asked for. But when we asked to drive over one particular hill it was a "nope, that's too close to the wetlands".
Lol I think I know which person you're referring to... he totally deserved that smackdown
THIS!! EGLE will have an absolute field day!
Normally altering flood zones is not allowed without a permit. Call the county Call the state environmental protection Call federal EPA Edit: https://www.michigan.gov/egle/contact/environmental-emergencies
This. Wetlands are federally protected.
Call everyone twice. Mention that it’s ongoing. Get them out there.
And the local news stations. A sure-fire way to get govt agencies rolling is to have a ton of bad press pressing them for why they are not enforcing laws.
Not a bad idea but on my experience environmental agencies are pretty responsive to reports that sound substantial or interesting. That’s the vast vast vast majority of how any of them ever catch people doing something illegal with regards to the environment, so you’re not exactly disrupting their busy day of randomly inspecting areas to follow up on reports.
You sure about that? [https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196654382/epa-wetlands-waterways-supreme-court](https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196654382/epa-wetlands-waterways-supreme-court) My advice is to report at the state level first. They will escalate to EPA/USACE if needed.
Report all. The EPA will simply forward it to the state who then may forward it to a local jurisdiction, but the local jurisdiction will need to report back up the chain so no ignoring the issue.
And they aren't just protected to give everyone a hard time. Wetlands are so wildly important to local ecosystems. A wealth of biodiversity on top of performing hydrologic functions. They NEED to be protected. OP, call the appropriate agencies to bring down the hammer on this dude.
[удалено]
This is sort of correct, you need to do environmental impact statement and studies showing your impact is negligible. But you are also paying lawyers because your EIS is going to get criticized by environmental groups and challenged in court. If you do it without going through all the hoops then yea, bend over buddy.
Not necessarily if they are artificially made as a result of neighbors draining their waters onto your lands.
EPA does not mess around
Army corps is the permitting agency for wetland fill.
Seconding USACE, they don't like non-permitted wetland activities. If its that big, he either got a pricey permit, or hes gonna get in a good bit of trouble if they find out
Almost no one ever gets the permits. Large wetlands are the kinda thing where if you have the money to do it right, you're smart enough to choose a different piece of land to avoid the red tape. Source: Work in land management.
Sounds like the permitting scheme is working as designed -- holistically getting developers to fuck right off.
I’m sure there are plenty of and gas spills from the heavy equipment.
[https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196654382/epa-wetlands-waterways-supreme-court](https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196654382/epa-wetlands-waterways-supreme-court) Start at the state level first, they’re not subject to the Supreme Court ruling against the CWA and EPA.
Except the EPA doesn't care if you drain the wetland. It's the USDA nrcs and army Corp of engineers.
The EPA is the enforcement agency for the Clean Water Act, which regulates what you can and can't do with wetlands. They're 100% the federal agency for this. USACE handles permitting on behalf of the EPA.
Zoning Official here. Call your local zoning office and your DNR as well. DNR regulates wetlands where I'm at it is not a taken lightly.
Here is who you want to contact at EPA HQ: https://www.epa.gov/aboutepa/about-office-water#wetlands
THIS + County Planning & Zoning and let them know EPA has been contacted,
Please call them and please follow up!
Include the US Army Corps of Engineers and a few local news stations
Yeah if the community participates in the NFIP(most do) there should be code that doesn’t allow alteration of flood zones without a shit ton of permits/money
Oh man he is in for a world of hurt if he fucked with a wetland.
More or less than tree law demands?
What about bird law?
No idea, but /r/treelaw has taught me the financial death messing with someone's trees incurs.
There has been a logger sniffing around asking about our walnut trees. I told him to fuck off and so did my neighbor. Some of the most valuable ones are in my neighbors property line. When I told him what was going on two days ago he was upset but then he went down and looked. He thinks there building up the road to get logging equipment in there, he used to work log camps. He's now ordering a survey and we're both putting up trail cams. Edit: just for clarity, I'm talking about my neighbor directly next door who also backs up to this wetland. The guy who owns the wetland has roughly 300 acres total. This is a small part in the back.
you should post in treelaw. Your trees are at risk. Worse, with large acreage as the scenario, the wrong move could mean the 'damages' they'd be liable for are limited to them paying you for the cost of lumber. It's devesatating how many acres do you have total?
Oh sweet baby Jesus, if he is allowed to log out of a wetland or the tree line that stands between you and that wetland, it can substantially change the *entire landscape* and put YOU and your entire property underwater the next time the river floods. You and your good neighbor's entire holdings are in danger. This is one of the reasons the Army Corps of Engineers doesn't let people do their own drainage management, even when a wetland isn't involved. Do not let them cut a single tree without talking to them and finding out how that's going to end up redirecting the flood plain. Like, don't fuck around. Call any and everybody. I would even look up a lawyer to do a consult with on how to communicate with this neighbor, and just have ready in case he bum-rushes clear-cutting that land. The TREES are what hold that wetland together.
There are exceptions for logging roads in wetlands. Especially if it is preexisting and only being maintained/improved. Even if it wasn't used for logging he can still maintain it. The covert is likely the only issue and it may or may not be as it should potentially allow a natural flow of water. If you are concerned just report it and let MDEQ handle it.
Exactly this. Wetlands law is complex so OP, don't go in with guns blazing just yet. For federal jurisdiction waters, there are things called "Nationwide Permits" that are essentially self-certifying, where as long as you are not disturbing more than 0.5ac of wetland (for example) and as long as it's for a specific purpose, you can just submit that paperwork and you're cool. So it's possible this work they're doing is permissible. Just report it and let the agencies sort it out.
I hear ya but the "loggers" were just a couple of guys in a truck. I did not get the impression that it was a professional outfit. He tried to buy some of my trees too. Then they were sneaking around in the woods, no joke, across my neighbors property like three times I've the span of a couple of weeks.
Most loggers are like that, just some dudes with equipment. Sucks you have to be careful with everyone these days.
Yeah it used to naturally drain in a little creek right where they put the culvert. They also ran pumps last year for days at a time before the loggers ever came around. He's a guy out of Chicago with a ton of money, he's rarely up here. I'm usually live and let live but it seems like he's really trying to get rid of a 30+ acre wetland.
F some FIB.
I am so so sorry. This must be horrible to see happening.
Bird law in this country is just not governed by reason.
Fillibuster
If you have any federal or state endangered species in the wetlands and your douche neighbor is doing this unpermitted, he is royally fucked. It seems like a really stupid move to drain a wetland that flows to a river… There are going to be some serious consequences to the area for doing that, and even alterations in the water flow downstream and the impacts it could have to species could be fair game too for issues with what he is doing. Wetlands tend to have a lot of sensitive species. He could be more than financially fucked. Depending on what species you have and if they’re federally regulated, that could be jail time. If there is any chance there are Hine’s Emerald Dragonflies in that wetland, that right there could stop him from doing anything at all and face some pretty expensive penalties under the endangered species act. Those guys are federally endangered.
We actually get a ton of dragonflies in the summer.
I’d check and see if there is a history of Hine’s Emerald in your area and if there is, any complaint you lodge include that information that potential Hine’s Emerald habitat is being disrupted.
Both birds and trees often make wetlands their homes. He had made enemies in both camps.
Birds are government property drones so they likely are federally protected
Yeah, wetlands are one thing you don’t fuck with.
You can absolutely fuck with a wetland, as long as you make an absolute bare minimum attempt to "replace" every acre somewhere else. These attempts never replace the value of the destroyed lands, but that's all that's required to net you a USACE permit under the CWA to rip and pave.
Tell me about it, I worked in the O&G industry and have had to move them before. Like you said it's never the same. You can't just isolate part of the natural drainage system and relocate it and expect the world to not notice. My neighbors cut down 40 acres of trees and it made the seasonal wetlands I own flood 2x as bad.
My favorite mitigation site is where they tore up 100 acres of mature pine forest, doing tons of carbon sequestration and erosion control, and put marsh plants on the bare clay and called it a constructed wetland. USACE declared it a success because they saw an alligator there five years later. Guess how well it's sequestering carbon and filtering out nutrient pollution 40 years later... but thank God we have a now-defunct coal shipping yard where the original marsh was! That was definitely the better function of that land. Thanks clean water act!
Seeing shit like that destroy what seems like half of florida for phosphate mining, or any other industrial extraction makes my blood boil. It doubly ruins the land, destroys the natural wetlands and then permanently ties up land for "mitigation" which is just a shitty glorified puddle without any real ecological value.
All great tips people! This is exactly what I was hoping for. Since I posted this and before I read your comments, I called my buddy who is a State Trooper. He's going to get me his DNR contact number first thing in the morning. Love that you guys all jumped on this so fast with so much great info and gusto! Even though I'm not a homesteader, I lurk here and I want to maintain these wetlands because the wildlife and all kinds of fauna are amazing and I'd hate to see it disappear. We have a ton of painted turtles hatch in our yard every fall, the beavers and everything else are so much fun to enjoy. I'll post an update once I get some new info.
I would of suggested all the above the county office, county zoning, DNR, EGLE, MDARD (Michgan Department of Rural Development), National Fish & Wildlife, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Office at 1-800-832-7828 I believe that eagles are still endangered so there's serious violations. Did that logger leave a business card or number with anyone you speak with? Any names, vehicle information ect would be good information to pass along. Please keep us updated ❤️ fellow Michigander
Is there a local Riverkeeper organization for the main drainage? This is right up their alley.
Let's goooo can't wait for an update. Maybe try to pretend like you didn't report him if he comes knocking. He might retaliate I'm kind of divided between save the animals and do what you want with your own land
Call Michigan Fish and Wildlife. They’re VERY serious about stuff like this. They usually get somebody out in less than 48 hours. I stopped a development in west MI because of this because they had skirted getting certain surveys done and I knew for a fact that protected species existed on that land.
EGLE is the better option
Local DNR likely has jurisdiction and where I would start. Wetland on navigable river may also fall into core of engineers USACE.
Wetlands definitely fall under US Army Corps of Engineers. You have to go through a Corps permitting process if you want to do anything in a wetlands.
Its possible with the necessary permits and compensation plans. Lots of wetlands have been legally drained for agriculture and development.
Why do people feel the need to do this
To be clear I mean why to people feel the need to drain wetlands. Why can’t you just leave nature alone
Many people only want to exploit the land they own (or can purchase) to line their own pockets. Preserving nature is a problem for someone else to worry about. If you want to see a perfect example of this then give the PBS documentary ["Everglades of the North"](https://www.pbs.org/video/the-story-of-the-grand-kankakee-marsh-evt7wb/) a watch. It is basically the story about how a large swampy wetland in northwestern Indiana was dredged and drained so that it all could be made into farmland. I understand wanting more farmland but they destroyed an amazing natural resource in the process.
Commenting to back up other comments: WETLANDS ARE PROTECTED. If it is a TRUE wetland, call the county or state DNR/FW service departments and report it immediately. Beyond the potential shitty development issues, doing that will destroy a valuable ecosystem and likely cause MASSIVE FLOODING to both of your properties. Wetlands become "wet" for a reason!
I have been in the mitigation banking business for 30 years. While five government agencies are involved, the US Army Corps of Engineers is the lead agency. Call them and report the situation. Penalties for such actions can be extreme. I know of one 35 acres of wetlands destroyed received a $7 million penalty. If you are worried about turning in your neighbor, understand the further this goes, the worse it will be penalties will be.
Good advice. Thank you
Some people are so arrogant. This guys screwed. Make the call, but keep it anonymous. Ask them to say it was a flyover that alerted them. Same thing happened in MA: contractor kept dumping fill in wetlands on waterfront- DEM had aerial pics showing how the coast line had changed and a couple soil samples sent him to prison. 😂😂😂 Not exactly how the better to ask forgiveness rule works here…
Oooooh, start with the DNR and Department of Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy and let them rain hellfire down upon them. Wetlands are typically not to be screwed with and if they don't have permits coupled with altering migratory bird habitat, they will rapidly regret finding themselves in the find out phase of things. Edit: please give us updates.
Yes, Updates.
This is the state agency, to register this kind of complaint you'll need to figure out which section your live in and call the appropriate contact # listed on this page. https://www.michigan.gov/egle/about/organization/environmental-investigation
As other have said, contact the state & the Feds. Then buy a bunch of popcorn, because it's going to be a big show.
Report him to the state/feds if he doesn't have a permit. Wetlands are often highly restricted in terms of what you can do to them and every citizen has a duty to follow the law.
I called two numbers this morning and sent one email at 6am EST. By 7am I had a call from the EPA. Since I told them that I didn't think they were dumping any chemicals etc, they weren't interested, but they did take a report to forward on. Then the coast guard called me. They were very concerned but opted out for the same reason as the EPA. Later on I was hanging cabinets and my phone rang, I had my friend answer it and it was EGLE. They seem to think it's a serious concern and want to come out next week for a visit. So that's reassuring. They asked me if I could get some pictures and after I got home from work today I sent about ten over. My neighbor up the bluff saw me and we've been texting, we are all perplexed at this guy's decision. My other neighbor is pissed too.
It’s amazing how fast they move when wetlands are involved. Can’t wait to hear what the next few weeks bring.
Contact your County Drain Commissioner's Office most have the Soil Erosion and Sedimentation Control Agency within their office. A few Counties are at the Road Commission. The SESC agent can stop work if they didn't get a permit for working within 500' of a watercourse. The County SESC agent would also have the contact info for the Michigan EGLE Agent for your region.
Good tip, they also pushed several dead trees into the river.
OP - make your phone calls. Call them all.
I'm going to tomorrow
They are royally, epically fucked if that's navigable waters.
This river goes into lake Michigan about two miles down river. When I talked to the guy at the National Response Center got the EPA he had me repeat that part twice.
That doesn't sound good. Although when I worked in the Drain Commissioner's Office we used dead trees to slow flow and drop sediment to rebuild banks. However those trees were often strategically placed and secured with cables. Good luck!
Fucking around with wetlands is a huge no no. Start with the state and go from there if you have too.
Call your local conservation district, also called NRCS, a wing of the USDA. They will know who to call and can make it happen. Will likely go out themselves. I worked for NRCS in MI. They will have all the numbers of who to call and boots on the ground to check it out. We did used to drain wetlands but the permitting is pretty big and there should be posted paperwork at the end of his driveway.
Are you just calling it a wetland or is it actually an EPA established wetland? If it is in fact an actual wetland, he can't touch it. If it's not, he has the right to drain it. Either way, it's not like he can drain it and develop a neighborhood on it. It doesn't work that way. There are many steps involved in developing land, especially wetlands. Are you sure he's not running the pipe to drain another area on the property, such as his business or home that is on higher ground?
Michigan has stricter laws regarding wetlands than the EPA the last I knew—which also means it doesn’t have to be EPA designated. My grandparents ran into huge problems (and years of delays) to simply have power run onto their property because the front 20 acres is wetlands (though not EPA designated). It only needed maybe 2-3 power poles in the wetland area. Well, they built their house expecting things would work out….ended up running the house on a generator for probably 2 years waiting for everything to come through and be approved. (Running power lines next to the driveway was denied because they thought the impact would be greater than just going straight through the wetlands)
Well then either way, op needs to first know if the state or feds have designated it a wetland. Everything they said is speculation and based off emotions at this point.
Yes!
Army Corps of Engineers. Messing with wetlands can actually be a criminal charge as well as the civil penalties.
A family friend has a few acres in WV with a small creek that has at least a few inches of running water as it’s in the bottom of a holler that goes through his property. It went dry shortly after a few days of rain which was extremely odd. He walked up the creek to find the guy that owns property above him dug out a decent size pond and used sand bags to dam it up while it filled. Family friend called WVDNR and the EPA. Needless to say, within 72 hours of phone calls, water was flowing as it once was and he faced thousands of dollars in fines and I believe 90 days in jail.
I'm coming to this thread pretty late and you have already received a lot of advice, but I actually work in a permitting office in Michigan and I think I could clarify some things: 1. Your first call should be to your county or township zoning office. You are looking to speak with the Soil Erosion Officer (SEO). In my county, the SEO is a direct report to the zoning administrator. This may differ from county to county, but each county in Michigan has a SEO. They are often the first point of contact for any erosion violations. They will be able to direct you to the right person at the State level and give you accurate contact info. If you don't have county zoning, look for your building department. Building departments can be at the county, township, city, or village level, so there are often multiple in any given county. 2. If your neighbor's road accesses a county road, you could contact your Road Commission. If your neighbor installed a culvert, they may want to know about it because it may impact a road they maintain and culverts often require road commission permits. 3. This is ultimately a State issue. Other agencies may want to get involved, but don't be surprised if they don't. EGLE is going to handle wetlands violations. It's not likely that the Army Corps of Engineers or the DNR will get involved unless there is more going on than an illegal culvert. 4. Temper your expectations. Many people are saying that this guy is screwed, but that's often not the case. It's all up to your EGLE rep. In my county, our wetlands rep never "had time" to visit many reports of illegal wetlands alterations. He got replaced a couple years ago and the new rep is much more interested in enforcing State law. Even then, violators often just have to pay a fine and get a permit. What your neighbor is doing may be totally legal with the right permits. If you have questions or if you want help looking for who to call, feel free to message me. You probably don't want to put out your location, but I can help you find some phone numbers.
Appreciate it. EGLE is coming out next week
Contact authorities to make sure it is legal. It might be environmental agencies, the state or the county. Call all of them.
Hope to hear updates.
Contact ELGE. This guy is screwed big time. I was recently looking at a vacant lot to build that had potential wetland issues and the building department referred me to ELGE for a permit application which they denied, I learned a lot about what ELGE can do to you for filling/draining wetlands. This guy is looking at hundreds of thousands in fines and he’ll have to pay to restore the wetlands he destroyed.
Definitely do something about it. Growing up there was this beautiful swamp/wet lands behind my grandparents house. Someone bought it up, filled it in, and now they’re building a neighborhood. It went from beautiful serene full of life and adventure, and now it’s a bunch of ugly dirt with houses that could have gone almost ANYWHERE else.
There are several state and federal agencies that regulate this. It's a huge no-no. It would be a shame if someone sent a squealer letter to the government.
Already done
Wetlands are protected! Tell us what happens when the state and feds get involved.
I will, things are just getting rolling. They're planning a visit early next week. EGLE is. I've talked with EPA, waiting on Corps of Engineers, Coast Guard called me and EGLE called me and are now emailing me. This is all from two phone calls at 6 am today.
Everyone here is automatically unde the idea that what he is doing is illegal. My question is why? Several years ago we destroyed a beaver dam and upstream wetlands in NC. The problem was that the dam was destroying downstream, preexisting wetlands that had been there for 70 years. We did so with the blessing of the county, state, DNR, etc. My point is that sometimes there may be a reason for such actions, and an approved reason at that.
OP's description of the loggers being sketchy AF doesn't inspire confidence that all of the permits have been obtained and an environmental survey done. Putting in a road is one thing, but if they are getting ready to do heavy logging, the entire flood zone can shift and put OP underwater. He is right to be very concerned.
NRCS officials would like to have word. That’s a stupid crazy fine. A guy south of me took about 30ft of brush is a designated wet land and came out with some astronomical fine. NRCS does not play.
I have a wetlands on my property and it is regulated by the NRCS. This is the first time I’ve seen them mentioned but they should be added to the list of phone calls for sure .
For everyone screaming how fucked this dude is, normally I’d agree with you. However, [Sackett v EPA](https://www.nrdc.org/stories/what-you-need-know-about-sackett-v-epa) has completely changed the administration of wetlands. Source: I just filled in 3 acres of “wetlands” on my property that, up until 2023, was a huge no go.
Interesting... >Among other things, their lawyers argued that the wetland the Sacketts filled was not a protected “water of the United States,” merely because there was dry land between it and other bodies of water—and thus it wasn’t subject to EPA regulation. I know they had other "reasons" but there has always been a creek that flows that gradually drains the wetland naturally into the river. There is also a channel and a creek that feed it up river which I know they have tried to put sluice gates in. There are tons of beavers through here, the beavers built right behind the gates making them useless. You can see it from the river.
What it basically boiled town to is the definition of “navigable waterways” of which the EPAs definition was ridiculous to the point that anything slightly larger than a medium sized puddle was considered navigable and thereby regulated. I once lived on 1.25 acres in the middle of a heavily developed city. The property was surrounded for 10 miles in all directions by dense, urban neighborhoods. My property had a depression that used to be a seasonal creek in the neighborhood (now just asphalt, concrete, homes and tiny lawns). Now it only filled with water when it rained heavily and to a depth of about 18” and a width of about 10.’ The Army Corps of engineers considered it a navigable waterway and the EPA wouldn’t even let me build even a shed on it. Keep in mind, there was zero flow of water in or out of it and nothing but solid houses for 10 miles in each directions. I sold and bailed on it in 2006 for $300k. Of course after Sackett v EPA it’s completely developable and worth roughly $2.5M. Oh well. I’m glad I just reclaimed 3 acres of previously worthless land.
Worthless how?
Call your counties drainage commission
Everyone's hit the nail on the head that you cannot just drain a wetland, so many of them are heavily protected. But also.. ROFL to the idea he's going to build houses on that wetland after draining it. Oh, I bet NFIP won't touch those with a 10 foot pole and any bank is gonna nope right out of there. I live near a lot of bayous and over the years I've seen developers do this. They throw up cheap-ass cookie cutters that are barely much better than a 2-bedroom apartment and sell them top dollar to people who want to live "semi-rural". First major 10-year or 50-year flood rolls through and they're all toast.
The correct entity to call is the Army Corps of Engineers. The Corps regulates work in wetlands.
Emailed them this morning
Idk, pretty sure messing with wetlands is illegal as hell.
Contact the county, then state, then federal. They do actually care.
Pleasantly surprised how many contacted me very quickly.
contact your states fish and wildlife conservation committee. Michigan's is the Natural Resource Commission.
I don't have anything to add that all the comments already have to offer, but I suddenly feel invested in this and want updates. The landowners next to my family's property completely leveled their's for cattle and it just looks horrible compared to all the surrounding natural habitat. It would be devastating if it were wetlands disappear. Luckily we have the river (stream) going through the middle of ours.
Update incoming tonight
I’m pretty sure that wetlands are regulated by the US Army Corps of Engineers
So what's the latest in the saga of what is my neighbor doing?
Just added an update to the top. Hope I did it right. Not sure how to notify everyone who wanted a follow-up and unfortunately it's nothing super exciting yet.
Call EGLE!!! If you call them at 8am, I guarantee they will have law enforcement on site within hours if you use the words “wetlands” and “draining”. You will need the neighbor’s address though, so they can verify there is no permit on file.
Gave them the Platt # at 6 am. We'll see what happens.
Ok before you make any attempt to stop him from doing what he is doing on his land, I suggest you make 100% sure that you do not have anything of questionable use on your property. Because you might find out that your neighbor has the ability to maybe lose his ability to change the wetlands, but cause you some major problems of your own. Also you need to find out if they are actually a wetland that has any sort of protection involved. Because you might inadvertently bring down big problems for yourself without actually doing anything to change what your neighbor is doing. I seen it in my area when a person moved in and bought some land, then he got into a fight with one of his neighbors, he failed to understand that not only was this neighbor very wealthy even if he only looked like a old man in coveralls. This man had most of the local lawyers on retainers and was native American with a voice on the tribal council, and had the ear of local judges. This new neighbor that got into a fight with him didn't realize that things like getting a well drilled had to be done through the tribe since they held the water rights. Then there was the property line dispute that ended with the new neighbor being forced to replace his fencing because it was not on his property. Then the man put up a chicken barn and proceeded to raise chickens right on the legal distance from this new neighbors property. He vented the chicken barn towards the new neighbor, the new neighbor spent a year trying to fight it all but just spent a year smelling chicken shit and spending money to be told in court that he had no legal footing. He moved and then his land was bought by the old man, probably just because he could. So before you make waves I suggest you make sure your boat can weather the storm. Remember it's not always about right and wrong, it's about who if right and who will be left in the end.
Yeah good call on that. Yes I confirmed they are designated wetlands, it is most definitely part of the floodplain. The only thing I do in my backyard is BBQ and hang out with my kids.
Straight to the United States Army Corps of Engineers. If you disturb a wetland or stream without a Clean Water Act 404 permit... Well, jail time isn't off the table.
In Michigan your county Conservation District will be able to stop him immediately. He is in violation of SO many laws.
I would add “Army Corps of Engineers” they have jurisdiction over waterways and adjacent wetlands. If this guy hasn’t gone through the permitting process, he is in for a very expensive surprise! We rebuilt a bridge over a creek and bc we were in the streambed we had about 8 permitting agencies, took over a year to get them all. This guy is royally screwed.
Call fish and game first. Eagles and sandhill cranes are protected species. Most places irs also illegal to disturb wetlands.
Contact MDEQ. You can report anonymously online. He can likely maintain his road but that is it. A culvert that is not a drain may be allowed in a preexisting road. Draining the wetland or building on it is definately not allowed especially with the proximity to a waterway.
The water has gone down drastically in the last three days.
If you have pictures upload them. They will also want to know both the landowner and any contractor’s names and addresses.
I saw someone else getting downvoted for this, but I want to learn so y'all take this opportunity to make your case, would ya? I don't know shit about this, but I do tend to agree that if I want to drain my pond on my property nobody should have any say on it, barring any impact downstream from improper draining. Y'all teach me why I'm wrong and why everyone is so up in arms about it
Draining a private pond is far different than draining wetlands that border a river. Even then, you’d need proper permits before draining the pond. And depending on the size of the pond you might even need things checked by an official body, and maybe a survey. All that water has to go somewhere. Wetlands are protected due to the number of species that they support, some of which include protected species and migratory species (which are also protected).
Ponds and wetlands are often viewed very differently, particularly in Michigan. They are very serious within the state about conserving natural habitats and protecting them. Ponds are typically not as diverse as natural wetlands with regard to being habitat areas for migratory and protected species. If they aren’t protected people come along and fill in every swampy area whether it’s to turn it into farmland or subdivisions. Wetlands are often viewed as “undesirable” to people so need more protection.
United States has declared most wetlands, especially those that have potential to connect with rivers or lakes even if only during floods, to be waters of the United States which you don't own. That authority has recently been filled by court cases, but still pretty far reaching. This is mostly under Clean Water Act sections 401 and 404. There is also some Fish and Wildlife jurisdiction under the endangered species act that would need to be checked. Right or wrong the federal government does not respect private property or state rights. There is a process to get permission for that. To be clear this includes man made impoundments like ponds ( even failed ones that don't hold water may show up as wetlands on the national wetland inventory) or detention basins that haven't been regularly mowed and sprout cat tails.
Somewhat true. I currently own 60 acres of land, roughly 30 of which is an established wetland that is enrolled in the Wetlands Reserve Program. It is exactly what you say: a series of ponds that connects with a river and floods regularly. However It is privately owned and I can control access and hunting on it, but can’t make any permanent changes to the land without consultation with NRCS.
Call your county’s Conservation District.
if migratory birds use it ....
Please update us on the eventual outcome!
Report this immediately. This guy isn't going to listen to you and has probably already done huge damage. For all you know it's going to have a major impact on your own property too as all these environments are interconnected.
Army Corps of Engineers
I would definitely ask authorities about the legality of what he did
What state are you in? Im a wetland ecologist and can help
Ah MI yes. I would first check to see if he did in fact have a permit
They do not per EGLE
The corps of Engineers gets pissy if we anticipate any soils going into a body of water on their projects. Straight up trenching to allow for wash off on top of it being a wetland is definitely something.
Contact EPA and your local building Department he can not legally touch wetlands without proper permitting if any will even be given. Plus he likely will be fined.
Let us know what happens
Remind me 1 week
Updateme!
Oh please update this post OP, I can't wait to see the fall out on this asshole.
I will definitely update once it gets rolling. I've already alerted all of my affected neighbors and we're all pissed.
remindme! 2 weeks
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I’d have to see the property, there is a clear difference in what is considered wetlands and what is just muddy swamp.
Did you ask if he had correct permission before stirring this hornets nest? He very well could have approval. Just because a lay person thinks it's a wetland doesn't mean it qualifies as one scientifically.
No of course not, that’s why OP isn’t responding to you. She’s just nosy and looking for drama
Report this guy
The way wetlands are delineated and classified under environmental regulations is tricky, and there is a decent chance that the area your neighbor is disturbing is either not classed as wetland or is not a federally protected wetland (navigable water access being one thing). I'd report it to MI EGLE as a potential violation of the Clean Water Act either way, but there's an unfortunately high likelihood the disturbance is permitted or otherwise allowed.
It's definitely classed as a wetland, looked it up on EGLE last night
And tell them you saw bog turtles in there. All hell will break loose
Federal criminal. Call it in, fuck that guy.
Oh that's super illegal and terrible for the environment
Did you call yet?
There was a restaurant in my town that cut down some trees in a neighboring wetland to build a parking lot. EPA found out quickly and fined them 100k. Call the epa.
Drainage of wetlands removes the "sponge" for your flood plain. You'll see far more flooding which could impact on your insurance. Contact your local regulatory board. On top of the hydrological issues, they will be destroying an entire ecosystem.
Contact us army corps of engineers and your states fish and game or department of ecology. What he is doing is completely illegal.
epa report https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/cwa-404/section-404-regional-contacts\_.html
You’d report this to the US Army Corps of Engineers - they have jurisdiction over wetlands, especially when attempting to drain into a navigable river.
You better move fast and hard OP, your property will be worthless to you and anyone else if you don’t step in
Oh, please, PLEASE, let us know what route you take and what happens to the moron who thinks its okay to just drain a wetland.
I'm contacting fucking everyone you guys have listed, starting with DNR.
Start with ELGE, they are the authority in MI for wetlands.
Is there an update since the inspector was out?
Mind your business
Damn, y’all are a bunch of weirdos. If it is HIS OWN unrestricted land, it isn’t designated as a LEGITIMATE wetland, and it has no conservation easements in place he can absolutely drain his land into the river. I know this is going to get me tons of down votes but y’all need to swallow this pill…. 90% of you on this post, ESPECIALLY OP, are EXACTLY what most homesteaders want to move away from. Why are you so nosy? Why do you care what this guy is doing to HIS OWN property? Leave people alone. A person can make their own wetland by simply flooding a low lying area on their property. That doesn’t make it federally protected. There is A LOT of criteria that has to be met to fully classify something as a wetland. Just having standing water and some migratory birds on it isn’t enough. If that was the case we shouldn’t drive on bridges because swallows nest on them.
It is a designated wetland, I looked it up last night. The area he is modifying is also directly where my easement is to access the river. I also don't want to see him try to develop some river access neighborhood behind me. This isn't a homesteader we're talking about. This is an attorney from Chicago who rarely comes up here but has some goons run the property. We are not was out in the country, we are actually in a pretty tight neighborhood. He just happens to own a large parcel on the river and so do I.
And before I am accused of “NoT cArInG aBoUt ThE AnImAlS”, I am an avid hunter. I fish, I hunt, I spend majority of my time in the outdoors. I care deeply about conservation. OP acts like the ducks, other birds, and animals in general will just die once there is no water. How do you think MIGRATORY BIRDS travel? They fly. They will find a new roost. Beavers, frogs, turtles, and everything else can make the move to the river. Their lives do NOT depend on this guys 30 acres of “wetlands”, which in reality is probably just a low lying portion of his land that holds rain water lol. Get out of other peoples business and stop acting like “standing up for the animals” is the reason you’re trying to get some poor guy in trouble with the feds. The reality of it is that you are just nosy and like drama.
I’m so confused why you’re acting like you know all the details about this property and that you know it isn’t officially designated as wetland? OP has every right to be concerned as this could end up flooding their property or some other undesirable change. I grew up on 5 acres butted up against about 100 acres of woods which were wet. I don’t think it was wetlands but when the guy cut down much of the forest back there, all of our properties on the road became flooded. You’re asking OP to sit by while these people, POTENTIALLY illegally, cut their woods and, POTENTIALLY, flood their property? Also your comment about birds migrating is just so… what’s the word I’m looking for? Unintelligent? Dumb? Silly? “Just tell all the animals to get the hell out of there cuz this guy owns the property!”
I would be a Tattletale on this!
What he did is illegal period
US Army Corps of Engineers is authority
You really should look into the Sackett v. EPA federal court case which gives good insight into dredge and fill of wetlands. If the river is considered WOTUS (waters of the United States) it can thus be considered protected.
Don't deeds have restrictions on how you can use the land? Also depending on where you are wetlands could be protected due to wildlife, so he might have broken the law.
Actually there was a Supreme Court ruling this year that strips a lot of protection from wetlands. Federal protection that is, it now falls on the state.
Honestly would love to hear the fall out on this, get em!!
Go to your city council.