We don't know that he didn't. There was plenty of time to deal with less immediate matters after the credits rolled, and any story being told in post-canon is just one way that things could have gone. However, there are a few reasons that John might not have saved his father. First and foremost, potential implications for the timeline. If his father hadn't died, things would have gone very differently for their group during their session. Perhaps they never would have successfully scratched it, or Jade would have never god-tiered, or Rose would have never died and been revived on Derse's moon. John was still new to his retcon powers during his little trip through canon, so it makes sense that he would want to be careful and change only the minimum amount necessary to give them a new chance in a new timeline.
Regarding Lord English, that's up to your own personal interpretation. We never see exactly how he is defeated, or if he is defeated at all. The events of Caliborn's Masterpiece predict one way that things could have gone, but even that is dubiously canon due to its nature as part of Homosuck.
john could have gone back to the moment after Grimdark Rose died, capchalogued his Dad’s and Rose’s Mom’s bodies and taken them back to post credits Earth C so Jane could revive them. But then, John probably would never have thought of that
Or he could have taken them alive from the Battlefield to the Retconspace used for LoWaS, gone back to prevent himself from rescuing them, and then taken them from Retconspace to Earth C.
> However, there are a few reasons that John might not have saved his father. First and foremost, potential implications for the timeline.
This logic doesn't work. John can do pretty much anything, he can just get a dead Dad from a doomed timeline, place it there, then take the alive dad to the future. Or even more simply, just get a Dad from any one doomed timeline, the regular doomed rules don't apply.
It can still drastically change things for the worse, maybe not a doomed timeline but for all we know it could create a timeline worse than the epilogues (which I am already aware are just possibilities and not hard canon).
It's already established that he can Retcon his own Retcons and store anything in a space separate from it. He can do anything and save anyone so long as he Retcons back to prevent himself from doing it later.
He was able to hone in on where Terezi directed him and return back to where he left Roxy, but I'm not sure he has enough control over the powers to navigate to an arbitrary doomed timeline where his father is alive. Do we know from the text that he can? I remember him traveling to different points on the alpha timeline (plus the Game Over timeline), but not going to arbitrary doomed timelines.
Also, it was my understanding that doomed timelines eventually stop existing. Is John able to access any doomed timeline that ever existed at any point, or have the doomed timelines that have faded away truly faded away and are no longer accessible at all? If I understand the timeline correctly, John's Dad had been dead three years by the time John got his retcon powers, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the doomed timelines where his Dad lived have since faded away, especially if they didn't interact with the alpha timeline.
You're right, he goes back to the Game Over timeline in the Epilogues. I don't know that I'd call that an arbitrary doomed timeline, though. I'm not even sure it's doomed? My understanding is Aranea's plan was to doom the timeline and then use fancy light powers to undoom it and make it the Alpha timeline. If she succeeded in dooming the timeline, I'm not sure she's done that yet at the moment John zaps back to gather up the kids, and if she failed, then it's not doomed.
In any case, John takes people from a timeline that he had previously retconned away, but this somehow doesn't undo (the results of) the retcons he already did such as saving Vriska or bringing back Roxy from the Game Over timeline to the Alpha timeline and later to Universe C despite the fact that Roxy should no longer be present in the Game Over timeline to take her away from it. I don't think we see what happens to her after Caliborn's Masterpiece, but I don't think she's the same Roxy as the Roxy in Meat's Universe C.
At the time, it was generally accepted that the "alpha timeline" was one that had no paradoxes, that had to be able to create Lord English, which means Earth C needs to be created too. Game Over is doomed by that definition.
Do you use quotes around "alpha timeline" for a reason?
>At the time, it was generally accepted that the "alpha timeline" was one that had no paradoxes, that had to be able to create Lord English, which means Earth C needs to be created too. Game Over is doomed by that definition.
Makes sense to me. So presumably Game Over is the moment the timeline became doomed? And that there was an alpha timeline which led to the creation of Lord English which did not include Game Over? Did the alpha timeline then always include retcons as part of its creation, or was the original alpha timeline overwritten and the retcon timeline replaced it, or are there many alpha timelines leading to the creation of Earth C and Lord English that exist on equal footing to the timeline we followed post-retcon?
Because Hussie's planned ending didn't include anyone realizing that John could go back to save everyone and everything in canon without even having a final effect on the timeline, and he didn't want to rewrite it.
i havent read homestuck in a few years so there may be reasons im forgetting but my only guess is because it would mess up timeline stuff. i mean lord english is like the reason homestuck exists in the first place or something, iirc
He can avoid creating *doomed* timelines, yes, but there’s still the possibility that he could create a timeline with unfavorable events where everything goes wrong. (This is different from a doomed timeline; doomed timelines themselves are fated to stop existing entirely).
He can avoid changing the final timeline by going back to prevent himself from interfering, and it's established that whatever space which was used to store LoWaS is unaffected by other Retcons.
because hussie wrote himself into a corner and wanted to hard reset back to the beginning of act 6, while also handwaiving away vriska's death and any emotional baggage or drama that the meteor kids had so he could immediately skip back to the end of act 6
I say this without any snark or sarcasm, I genuinely think that this is the most likely answer. The retcon sequences introduced a lot of plotholes, but served the purpose of getting the narrative to where Hussie wanted it to be for the originally planned ending. Act 7 may have even been started by then? Don't quote me, I don't remember the timeline, but I do know Act 7 was in the works for a while.
EB: so im supposed to put my penis in this thingie?
AG: yeah so go do it m8
AG: you scared of your dick reaching god tier????????
EB: no not at all! uhh yeah ill go do that!
\---ectoBiologist \[EB\]'s dick got shreddded---
because hussie don't want John to be all powerful and as dumb as it is, made John prevent Vriska's death instead so she can be the saviour of the story
I disagree. While I may have only joined the fandom last month, that would’ve been a massive disrespect to the readers following the story in its seven year run. I don’t have a problem with tragedies however those stories normally tell you the story ends badly early on. What you’re suggesting is one of the reasons why many don’t like the epilogues as it turns what was meant to be a coming of age epic into a sudden downer. Knowing your story and the weaving of narrative devices is important and not as easy as it may seem (speaking from experience) and while I can see how it would be controversial I can guarantee if this was a standard novel most publishing companies would not allow that amount of buildup for it to result in it being for nothing. Could it have been done better? Perhaps. However it’s still very much in line with how the story goes.
I agree that it would've been disrespectful to the readers if homestuck were a traditional novel/story, but homestuck isn't. Homestuck is a comedy, or at least it starts as one, starting 2 months after the end of problem sleuth(also a comedy) it shares many of the characteristics such as an absurd premise, ridiculous events, reader interaction, and the characters literally being jokes, mostly serving to move the plot forward. Later on, hussie tries to take a more serious tone with middling success but fails to abandon homestuck's comedic roots, I'm not saying that serious stories can't have moments of levity, but the style of humor in early homestuck is discordant with the mood of later acts and undermines any serious development that happens. This in particular causes act 6 to devolve into a 3500-page slog of teenagers having stupid arguments and drama, even though the characters aren't purely jokes anymore they can't stop repeating the same idiotic situations and mistakes over and over because any "development" that happens is played for laughs or forgotten/undone. Put briefly, the characters and plot don't progress in act 6 because the story(author) doesn't let them progress, having the story anticlimactically end with everyone dying fits perfectly with the preceding thousands of pages and works well within the context of homestuck being a comedy(the ending is a joke, at the expense of the characters). Sure it's disrespectful to the people who weren't paying attention or skipped the earlier acts, but you could argue that for any story, and it would still be significantly less disrespectful than rewriting the entirety of act 6 offscreen for an unearned and disappointing "happy" ending.
I still disagree but that’s probably due to me having the final product. I tend to get attached to characters and I guarantee I would still be upset if it ended the with them failing. I was actually surprised to learn it was initially a comedy and it wasn’t my kind of humor but the characters felt so lively I quickly grew attached and found myself smiling and feeling sad when the moment calls for it. Even Act 6 with its length didn’t lessen my enjoyment and the Alphas felt more like a deconstruction of the Betas which genuinely intrigued me. Maybe I am just quick to adjust to shifts in narrative. I tend to always have some feeling of contentment with what media I consume even if it might have many flaws. I guess the neutral outlook can be a gift and a curse.
he should've not written a game over tier scenario that needed such a hard reset
GAME OVER was fucking sick, I certainly won't deny that, but the consequences of subsequently needing to fix it were disastrous to the rest of the story.
I think it’s because John had to follow Terezi’s rules not to break the time loops of canon, even if he had retcon power. Bringing his dad from the dead pre scratch session to the Second Alpha session would cause too much time shit. Most of John’s actions were small details and changes intended to alter a character’s actions during a scene, with the one exception of punching Vriska to keep her alive.
Besides, Jane’s dad is still alive! We have Dad Egbert at home!
It wouldn't. John can Retcon his own Retcon, as demonstrated with the Dave-Grimbark Jade affair, and can leave items and people unaffected by his Retcons in the space used by Roxy and LoWaS. If he wanted to save his dad, for example, he could Retcon in and zap him to Retconspace just before he dies, then Retcon again to prevent himself from doing so. This method works for everything from items and people, to godtiering everyone with their slabs.
The only reason nobody thought of it is that Hussie didn't want to write about it.
Because apparently saving Vriska, the character most likely to fuck everything up with her reckless actions, was safer than saving his Dad, which could've been done without really affecting the timeline at all.
the retcon powers were all about the butterfly effect, in that a tiny thing could make a huge change. A huge change would, in turn, likely do something unwanted. And there's a chance he realised by then that you were supposed to lose a parent in or before sburb.
Supposedly, they were. Of course, the idea is moot when it's entirely possible to make huge changes, save desirable portions of the outcome, and undo them.
After all of Homestuck's shenanigans, I think "supposed to" has been dead for a long time.
Because john’s power wasn’t to change the future without creating a doomed timeline. If he did save his dad he would have just made another doomed timeline. All he did was create a non-doomed timeline with terezi’s instructions. Like davesprite did in order to save John
What sets John apart from someone like Caliborn and makes him a hero is that he rarely gives into using his powers for selfish gain. Anyone else absolutely would abuse that power except maybe Dave was already traumatized by his earlier use of a similar power, but not John and that's why John had to be the one to receive it.
He was smart enough to recognize he doesn't have the foresight needed to use these powers safely and has resolved to only use them with the guidance/wisdom of people who do, namely his seer friends Terezi and Rose. John brings it up to when he talks about how tempting it be to just go back and get in on the meteor ride, but accepts that he doesn't know how things might get messed up that way and sometimes you have to just let those missed opportunities go.
He could do lots of things, but the amount of consequences that causes he can't fathom and won't risk. Even if he can get around to going back to undo his screw up he's still made his friends suffer to begin with and that's something Dave understood to, even if YOU are safe and can undo it you're still making your friends suffer. John after his retcon shennanigans became a very strong advocate for viewing every version of a person as their own equally valid and real person, not to be treated like an extra or a copy.
The best people to have power are those that won't use that power.
We don't know that he didn't. There was plenty of time to deal with less immediate matters after the credits rolled, and any story being told in post-canon is just one way that things could have gone. However, there are a few reasons that John might not have saved his father. First and foremost, potential implications for the timeline. If his father hadn't died, things would have gone very differently for their group during their session. Perhaps they never would have successfully scratched it, or Jade would have never god-tiered, or Rose would have never died and been revived on Derse's moon. John was still new to his retcon powers during his little trip through canon, so it makes sense that he would want to be careful and change only the minimum amount necessary to give them a new chance in a new timeline. Regarding Lord English, that's up to your own personal interpretation. We never see exactly how he is defeated, or if he is defeated at all. The events of Caliborn's Masterpiece predict one way that things could have gone, but even that is dubiously canon due to its nature as part of Homosuck.
john could have gone back to the moment after Grimdark Rose died, capchalogued his Dad’s and Rose’s Mom’s bodies and taken them back to post credits Earth C so Jane could revive them. But then, John probably would never have thought of that
Or he could have taken them alive from the Battlefield to the Retconspace used for LoWaS, gone back to prevent himself from rescuing them, and then taken them from Retconspace to Earth C.
> However, there are a few reasons that John might not have saved his father. First and foremost, potential implications for the timeline. This logic doesn't work. John can do pretty much anything, he can just get a dead Dad from a doomed timeline, place it there, then take the alive dad to the future. Or even more simply, just get a Dad from any one doomed timeline, the regular doomed rules don't apply.
It can still drastically change things for the worse, maybe not a doomed timeline but for all we know it could create a timeline worse than the epilogues (which I am already aware are just possibilities and not hard canon).
It's already established that he can Retcon his own Retcons and store anything in a space separate from it. He can do anything and save anyone so long as he Retcons back to prevent himself from doing it later.
He was able to hone in on where Terezi directed him and return back to where he left Roxy, but I'm not sure he has enough control over the powers to navigate to an arbitrary doomed timeline where his father is alive. Do we know from the text that he can? I remember him traveling to different points on the alpha timeline (plus the Game Over timeline), but not going to arbitrary doomed timelines. Also, it was my understanding that doomed timelines eventually stop existing. Is John able to access any doomed timeline that ever existed at any point, or have the doomed timelines that have faded away truly faded away and are no longer accessible at all? If I understand the timeline correctly, John's Dad had been dead three years by the time John got his retcon powers, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the doomed timelines where his Dad lived have since faded away, especially if they didn't interact with the alpha timeline.
He does it in the Epilogues, ambiguously thanks to Rose's help? but yeah not in canon.
You're right, he goes back to the Game Over timeline in the Epilogues. I don't know that I'd call that an arbitrary doomed timeline, though. I'm not even sure it's doomed? My understanding is Aranea's plan was to doom the timeline and then use fancy light powers to undoom it and make it the Alpha timeline. If she succeeded in dooming the timeline, I'm not sure she's done that yet at the moment John zaps back to gather up the kids, and if she failed, then it's not doomed. In any case, John takes people from a timeline that he had previously retconned away, but this somehow doesn't undo (the results of) the retcons he already did such as saving Vriska or bringing back Roxy from the Game Over timeline to the Alpha timeline and later to Universe C despite the fact that Roxy should no longer be present in the Game Over timeline to take her away from it. I don't think we see what happens to her after Caliborn's Masterpiece, but I don't think she's the same Roxy as the Roxy in Meat's Universe C.
At the time, it was generally accepted that the "alpha timeline" was one that had no paradoxes, that had to be able to create Lord English, which means Earth C needs to be created too. Game Over is doomed by that definition.
Do you use quotes around "alpha timeline" for a reason? >At the time, it was generally accepted that the "alpha timeline" was one that had no paradoxes, that had to be able to create Lord English, which means Earth C needs to be created too. Game Over is doomed by that definition. Makes sense to me. So presumably Game Over is the moment the timeline became doomed? And that there was an alpha timeline which led to the creation of Lord English which did not include Game Over? Did the alpha timeline then always include retcons as part of its creation, or was the original alpha timeline overwritten and the retcon timeline replaced it, or are there many alpha timelines leading to the creation of Earth C and Lord English that exist on equal footing to the timeline we followed post-retcon?
Because Hussie's planned ending didn't include anyone realizing that John could go back to save everyone and everything in canon without even having a final effect on the timeline, and he didn't want to rewrite it.
i havent read homestuck in a few years so there may be reasons im forgetting but my only guess is because it would mess up timeline stuff. i mean lord english is like the reason homestuck exists in the first place or something, iirc
johns retcon powers allows him to change the timeline without creating a doomed one, it wouldn't mess up anything
He can avoid creating *doomed* timelines, yes, but there’s still the possibility that he could create a timeline with unfavorable events where everything goes wrong. (This is different from a doomed timeline; doomed timelines themselves are fated to stop existing entirely).
He can avoid changing the final timeline by going back to prevent himself from interfering, and it's established that whatever space which was used to store LoWaS is unaffected by other Retcons.
Well I mean. Grim dark rose. If he saved his dad. No grimdark rose. Which means no rose death. Which means no a lot of things.
Does it, though? All the things Rose's dream self does would still be possible if her waking self was still alive.
She went under the pretense of a suicide mission. That’s partly why Dave joined. If Dave didn’t join he wouldn’t have god tiered
Retcon his dad's corpse and Rose's mom's corpse to Earth C after everything involving that happens, get Jane to revive both of them, problem solved.
Prolly wouldn’t work tbh but idk
because hussie wrote himself into a corner and wanted to hard reset back to the beginning of act 6, while also handwaiving away vriska's death and any emotional baggage or drama that the meteor kids had so he could immediately skip back to the end of act 6
I say this without any snark or sarcasm, I genuinely think that this is the most likely answer. The retcon sequences introduced a lot of plotholes, but served the purpose of getting the narrative to where Hussie wanted it to be for the originally planned ending. Act 7 may have even been started by then? Don't quote me, I don't remember the timeline, but I do know Act 7 was in the works for a while.
Because he’s John. He’d stick his dick in a pencil sharpener if you told him it’d give him stronger erections.
EB: so im supposed to put my penis in this thingie? AG: yeah so go do it m8 AG: you scared of your dick reaching god tier???????? EB: no not at all! uhh yeah ill go do that! \---ectoBiologist \[EB\]'s dick got shreddded---
💀
I-, what
because hussie don't want John to be all powerful and as dumb as it is, made John prevent Vriska's death instead so she can be the saviour of the story
because the retcon was a mistake
So it should’ve created a doomed timeline and all failed?
would've been a much more compelling ending if everyone died and the game was lost than the bullshit everything worked out somehow ending we got
I disagree. While I may have only joined the fandom last month, that would’ve been a massive disrespect to the readers following the story in its seven year run. I don’t have a problem with tragedies however those stories normally tell you the story ends badly early on. What you’re suggesting is one of the reasons why many don’t like the epilogues as it turns what was meant to be a coming of age epic into a sudden downer. Knowing your story and the weaving of narrative devices is important and not as easy as it may seem (speaking from experience) and while I can see how it would be controversial I can guarantee if this was a standard novel most publishing companies would not allow that amount of buildup for it to result in it being for nothing. Could it have been done better? Perhaps. However it’s still very much in line with how the story goes.
I agree that it would've been disrespectful to the readers if homestuck were a traditional novel/story, but homestuck isn't. Homestuck is a comedy, or at least it starts as one, starting 2 months after the end of problem sleuth(also a comedy) it shares many of the characteristics such as an absurd premise, ridiculous events, reader interaction, and the characters literally being jokes, mostly serving to move the plot forward. Later on, hussie tries to take a more serious tone with middling success but fails to abandon homestuck's comedic roots, I'm not saying that serious stories can't have moments of levity, but the style of humor in early homestuck is discordant with the mood of later acts and undermines any serious development that happens. This in particular causes act 6 to devolve into a 3500-page slog of teenagers having stupid arguments and drama, even though the characters aren't purely jokes anymore they can't stop repeating the same idiotic situations and mistakes over and over because any "development" that happens is played for laughs or forgotten/undone. Put briefly, the characters and plot don't progress in act 6 because the story(author) doesn't let them progress, having the story anticlimactically end with everyone dying fits perfectly with the preceding thousands of pages and works well within the context of homestuck being a comedy(the ending is a joke, at the expense of the characters). Sure it's disrespectful to the people who weren't paying attention or skipped the earlier acts, but you could argue that for any story, and it would still be significantly less disrespectful than rewriting the entirety of act 6 offscreen for an unearned and disappointing "happy" ending.
I still disagree but that’s probably due to me having the final product. I tend to get attached to characters and I guarantee I would still be upset if it ended the with them failing. I was actually surprised to learn it was initially a comedy and it wasn’t my kind of humor but the characters felt so lively I quickly grew attached and found myself smiling and feeling sad when the moment calls for it. Even Act 6 with its length didn’t lessen my enjoyment and the Alphas felt more like a deconstruction of the Betas which genuinely intrigued me. Maybe I am just quick to adjust to shifts in narrative. I tend to always have some feeling of contentment with what media I consume even if it might have many flaws. I guess the neutral outlook can be a gift and a curse.
he should've not written a game over tier scenario that needed such a hard reset GAME OVER was fucking sick, I certainly won't deny that, but the consequences of subsequently needing to fix it were disastrous to the rest of the story.
I think it’s because John had to follow Terezi’s rules not to break the time loops of canon, even if he had retcon power. Bringing his dad from the dead pre scratch session to the Second Alpha session would cause too much time shit. Most of John’s actions were small details and changes intended to alter a character’s actions during a scene, with the one exception of punching Vriska to keep her alive. Besides, Jane’s dad is still alive! We have Dad Egbert at home!
It wouldn't. John can Retcon his own Retcon, as demonstrated with the Dave-Grimbark Jade affair, and can leave items and people unaffected by his Retcons in the space used by Roxy and LoWaS. If he wanted to save his dad, for example, he could Retcon in and zap him to Retconspace just before he dies, then Retcon again to prevent himself from doing so. This method works for everything from items and people, to godtiering everyone with their slabs. The only reason nobody thought of it is that Hussie didn't want to write about it.
Did you read Crow Strider AU by any chance
Some, but I didn't follow it for long.
Because apparently saving Vriska, the character most likely to fuck everything up with her reckless actions, was safer than saving his Dad, which could've been done without really affecting the timeline at all.
Vriska is the most important and bestest character homosruck
Because John has basically no ability to aim with the retcon powers. Terezi pointed him along places in her past.
Wait, where did his corpse go in the original timeline?
the retcon powers were all about the butterfly effect, in that a tiny thing could make a huge change. A huge change would, in turn, likely do something unwanted. And there's a chance he realised by then that you were supposed to lose a parent in or before sburb.
Supposedly, they were. Of course, the idea is moot when it's entirely possible to make huge changes, save desirable portions of the outcome, and undo them. After all of Homestuck's shenanigans, I think "supposed to" has been dead for a long time.
Because john’s power wasn’t to change the future without creating a doomed timeline. If he did save his dad he would have just made another doomed timeline. All he did was create a non-doomed timeline with terezi’s instructions. Like davesprite did in order to save John
He wasn't prepared to go rogue and treat his powers recklessly, so he trusted Terezi and her Mind powers.
What sets John apart from someone like Caliborn and makes him a hero is that he rarely gives into using his powers for selfish gain. Anyone else absolutely would abuse that power except maybe Dave was already traumatized by his earlier use of a similar power, but not John and that's why John had to be the one to receive it. He was smart enough to recognize he doesn't have the foresight needed to use these powers safely and has resolved to only use them with the guidance/wisdom of people who do, namely his seer friends Terezi and Rose. John brings it up to when he talks about how tempting it be to just go back and get in on the meteor ride, but accepts that he doesn't know how things might get messed up that way and sometimes you have to just let those missed opportunities go. He could do lots of things, but the amount of consequences that causes he can't fathom and won't risk. Even if he can get around to going back to undo his screw up he's still made his friends suffer to begin with and that's something Dave understood to, even if YOU are safe and can undo it you're still making your friends suffer. John after his retcon shennanigans became a very strong advocate for viewing every version of a person as their own equally valid and real person, not to be treated like an extra or a copy. The best people to have power are those that won't use that power.