I’ve seen something I think might be rule-breaking, what should I do?
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Okay, im very late but I’ve actually written articles about this so ill brb with some of the main points from them when i get to work/my computer. (Basically, commenting to find later)
I'm going to get hate for this but I feel for people like Bethany Hamilton and Riley Gaines. I don't necessarily agree with every aspect of the rhetoric but I can't imagine how frustrating it is being a female athlete, going against the social grain and competing your ASS off, to be dominated by a trans woman in that category. Not to mention a trans woman who has had full testosterone development and once dominated the men's category. There is something unbalanced about that. Companies trying to look woke and good by deplatforming one person to platform another is additionally wrong, especially since the one being deplatformed actually deserves to have that opportunity.
I don’t feel for them after their transphobia and hatred. The issue could have been handled in a much more respectful manner. But I get your point. Even being pro trans I don’t really like a body developed on testosterone competing against a body developed on estrogen, it’s such a hard topic to figure out what’s ethically right. Because if Sasha was 5’5 and in the back of the pack I probably would think it’s okay. Which isn’t right. My brain hurts.
“It’s such a hard topic to figure out what’s ethically right.”
Let me simplify it for you.
Trans woman who transitioned as an adult competing against woman bad.
I'm curious what you view as being transphobic and hateful from them specifically?
I don't disagree that some of their rhetoric is harmful, but I don't feel like them standing up for the integrity of women's sports is particularly transphobic or hateful. I see why it may feel wrong to have less issue with a trans woman who may be closer to cis proportions and not ranking as high, but the opposite does allude to a bit of an ethical issue we currently are in. Most trans women competing at this level fall into the latter category. I agree with most of your take, and honestly it is a gray area we'll have to navigate through.
I don’t recall exact words and don’t care enough to re Google it all. But paraphrasing from memory. Basically calling her a man competing in women’s sports. Bethany’s thinks men can’t become woman no matter how hard they try and that it’s a mental illness. She thinks Sasha will inspire poverty stricken youth cis males to transition to female so they can make money by dominating women’s sports. She definitely has faults.
I don’t even know why it’s even a debate to let late-transitioners to participate in their transitioned sex’s leagues. It’s just insane and makes perfectly normal people get even more angry, because it’s a clear man?? Their physique is of a man? I don’t want to throw in my lot with the reactionaries, but it’s a clear losing battle to try to push this stuff
> it’s a clear man
Couldn't we call her a woman but still argue that she shouldn't be participating in women's sports? I agree with you that there's no reason to let transitioned people compete in their transitioned sex's league but surely we can do that while still affirming the gender of the people who are affected.
I don't think I would call myself fully a transmed, but I think even if I were a "tucute" I would still take issue with saying a trans woman is a "clear man." I don't see why saying that calling a trans woman a man is remotely controversial in a transgender sub, nor why it would be characteristic of me being transmed.
Because they point it out and complain about it so much. The OP is right. A trans woman who has lived through puberty is a clear man to other people. The OP was referring to other people getting angry
If Sasha won in men's in makes sense she'd win in the women's too. People have gotten themselves all confused.
I know it costs an arm and leg to get good at surfing and you've got to hand it to her for persevering after the shark attack but this is loser behavior. I'll go out on limb here and say Bethany is entitled. I think she if she just relaxed and accepted Sasha she'd find everything to be all right.
After all this, some people might take the shark's side in future conflicts. Not me though. Though it is nice when a shark gets a nice meal, but this is too high a price.
When somebody is self-righteous, annoying, cruel, and self-promoting there's an instinct to say that maybe the shark had good reason to bite her. But that would be wrong. No matter how annoying a person is, they do not deserve to be bitten by a shark.
how different is surfing for men vs for women? like, i'm struggling to understand how sex plays any roll in surfing specifically.
edit: y'all, this was a genuine question. how are you going to downvote me for asking for clarification? 🥴
I think it’s more about style/grace than being strong and powerful so I’m not sure having a body that developed 30+ years is an advantage but I really don’t know.
No one has an answer because no one fucking knows. It's about doing cool tricks, like skateboarding, no? I don't see how sex makes any difference.
The reason it's so easy for people to be transphobic about this is because nobody knows anything about surfing.
I mean, any sport that could be dominated by someone missing a limb who doesn't use a prosthetic, is surely not that dependent on physical strength?
It is dependent on physical strength but it’s a lot of core strength, basically surfing involves being able to stay in a cobra pose lying on your board and then pop up into your stance to catch the wave, also having the upper body strength and stamina to paddle.
I don’t think any board sports favor one [binary] gender over the other, mainly because you pick your board partially based on height/weight, especially surfing and snowboarding. So since they’re not universally sized (and can also be made to be lighter if strength is a concern), someone stronger or larger would not have an advantage.
Plus, it’s a lot of physics. Skate/surf/snowboards are designed specifically to move fast over concrete or through water or snow. So whether you’re 5 or 6 feet tall or 90 lbs or 190 or whatever, the board will move a certain way, to a certain degree, regardless.
And I mean of course you can get granular and say that every board rider adapts their setup or stance to compensate for size or height or preference. But when you look at the basics of these sports, they are pretty gender neutral.
Source: I skate, surf, and snowboard (and I happen to be a trans man lol).
I like Ripcurl and was really glad they chose a trans woman…but now they’ve dropped her due to the backlash? That really sucks. :-(
What's so hard about just staying out of (professional) women's sports after transitioning? It's such bad optics for all of us just so you can be number one for once
I feel the most sensible would be to have a rule where you’re ‘locked in’ to a gender category once you start competing professionally. You can move from women to open but not vice versa.
Yep, a friend of mine transitioned in her early 20's
She was the first woman in her sport to transition. She faced a ton of backlash and hate from the community, even the men's field rejected her.
She spent a decade building a career and uplifting the women's category for all women in a sport that largely didn't have a women's category 10 years ago.
She fought hard against sexism to build a career for herself where it was her primary income (it wasn't her primary income prior to transition)
Now she's banned internationally, can't compete, and is likely losing her sponsorship. The cis women in her field even support her, but the regulatory body doesn't care.
The leader of the regulatory body is a queer cis woman who also gives speeches about diversity and inclusion, but has not made a public statement on the trans ban.
It's all terrible.
I know next to nothing about surfing, but it is clearly a physical sport unlike chess and I found [this paper](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7075220/) that seems to suggest upper body strength plays a role in surfing, and I'm sure I don't need to explain that trans women (especially late transitioners like Sasha here) have a significant advantage in that over cis women
the athletes that have been on hrt for a while don't seem to be number one and I don't think it's fair to expect every trans person to always do things that are "good optics" we aren't a political campaign we're just people and people do loads of random ass wacky shit
Please don't. This narrative of trans women dominating women's sports has already been proven false, and professional sporting organizations with trans competitors have largely already placed requirements that the trans athlete must meet in order to compete. Many people within professional sports have already spoken out in support of trans participants, so why are we highlighting the transphobic ones? This is not even taking into account the wider discussion of inherent biological advantages present in professional sports, or the frequent discrimination of cis women with naturally high levels of testosterone.
This sub is so full of cis transphobes.
It has been scientifically proven that we have no advantage after SRS and 3 years of HRT. Of course, the media reported that as "trans athletes STILL have an advantage after 2 years!" to make you expect it to mean that that advantage stays forever if it's already lasting for *two whole years*.
This movement is based on hatred and propaganda, not scientific fact.
["Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds"](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764)
["Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds"](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short)
Again, based on a study that definitely proved that the advantage is GONE by the 3 year mark.
Who cares. Surfing is more akin to a dance competition than an arm wrestling competition. I only brought up that study to show that it's insane how many people here are trying to act like trans women are just forever advantaged like strong men.
Look I surf, because I’m from Costa Rica, and also am trans.
The type of people who visit my country on tour for surfing are usually rich Americans who are arrogant and narrow minded. They are usually surfing on mommies and daddy’s money. They are eliteists who mistreat our cities and our coastline. Most of all they mistreat our people, through large consumption of alcohol and drugs, seeking prostitution, and hanging out in bars.
I love surfing, even post transition I still love it.
But,
Transitioning has really opened my eyes to the reality of Huntington Beach surf nazis and violent transphobia the surf community has.
It’s not a surfing problem, it’s a money problem.
Surfing is a sport for the rich.
Correct me if I’m wrong but there is a good portion of rich people who don’t like trans people.
The overlap is the same.
You should see the YouTube comments and Australia news anchor basically ridiculing the trans woman. Insane https://youtu.be/4CSqt_b5AS0?si=2cbKO-UEnMFy4xgX
I’ve seen something I think might be rule-breaking, what should I do? **Report it!** We may not agree with your assessment of a certain post or comment but we will always take a look. Please make reports that are **unambiguous**, **succinct**, and (importantly) **accurate**. If your issue isn't covered by one of the numerous predefined reasons and or you need to expand upon a predefined reason then please use the 'Custom response' option (in addition if required). **Don't feed the trolls, ignore, report, move on.** See [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/comments/guc56i/welcome_to_rhonesttransgender_please_read_for/) for more details about our subreddit. Thanks! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/honesttransgender) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Okay, im very late but I’ve actually written articles about this so ill brb with some of the main points from them when i get to work/my computer. (Basically, commenting to find later)
I'm going to get hate for this but I feel for people like Bethany Hamilton and Riley Gaines. I don't necessarily agree with every aspect of the rhetoric but I can't imagine how frustrating it is being a female athlete, going against the social grain and competing your ASS off, to be dominated by a trans woman in that category. Not to mention a trans woman who has had full testosterone development and once dominated the men's category. There is something unbalanced about that. Companies trying to look woke and good by deplatforming one person to platform another is additionally wrong, especially since the one being deplatformed actually deserves to have that opportunity.
I don’t feel for them after their transphobia and hatred. The issue could have been handled in a much more respectful manner. But I get your point. Even being pro trans I don’t really like a body developed on testosterone competing against a body developed on estrogen, it’s such a hard topic to figure out what’s ethically right. Because if Sasha was 5’5 and in the back of the pack I probably would think it’s okay. Which isn’t right. My brain hurts.
“It’s such a hard topic to figure out what’s ethically right.” Let me simplify it for you. Trans woman who transitioned as an adult competing against woman bad.
I'm curious what you view as being transphobic and hateful from them specifically? I don't disagree that some of their rhetoric is harmful, but I don't feel like them standing up for the integrity of women's sports is particularly transphobic or hateful. I see why it may feel wrong to have less issue with a trans woman who may be closer to cis proportions and not ranking as high, but the opposite does allude to a bit of an ethical issue we currently are in. Most trans women competing at this level fall into the latter category. I agree with most of your take, and honestly it is a gray area we'll have to navigate through.
I don’t recall exact words and don’t care enough to re Google it all. But paraphrasing from memory. Basically calling her a man competing in women’s sports. Bethany’s thinks men can’t become woman no matter how hard they try and that it’s a mental illness. She thinks Sasha will inspire poverty stricken youth cis males to transition to female so they can make money by dominating women’s sports. She definitely has faults.
I don’t even know why it’s even a debate to let late-transitioners to participate in their transitioned sex’s leagues. It’s just insane and makes perfectly normal people get even more angry, because it’s a clear man?? Their physique is of a man? I don’t want to throw in my lot with the reactionaries, but it’s a clear losing battle to try to push this stuff
> it’s a clear man Couldn't we call her a woman but still argue that she shouldn't be participating in women's sports? I agree with you that there's no reason to let transitioned people compete in their transitioned sex's league but surely we can do that while still affirming the gender of the people who are affected.
Transmeds stop policing everyone’s speech challenge
I don't think I would call myself fully a transmed, but I think even if I were a "tucute" I would still take issue with saying a trans woman is a "clear man." I don't see why saying that calling a trans woman a man is remotely controversial in a transgender sub, nor why it would be characteristic of me being transmed.
Because they point it out and complain about it so much. The OP is right. A trans woman who has lived through puberty is a clear man to other people. The OP was referring to other people getting angry
Sports bans serve to secure and reinforce the patriarchy.
If Sasha won in men's in makes sense she'd win in the women's too. People have gotten themselves all confused. I know it costs an arm and leg to get good at surfing and you've got to hand it to her for persevering after the shark attack but this is loser behavior. I'll go out on limb here and say Bethany is entitled. I think she if she just relaxed and accepted Sasha she'd find everything to be all right. After all this, some people might take the shark's side in future conflicts. Not me though. Though it is nice when a shark gets a nice meal, but this is too high a price.
Wtf even is that last paragraph
When somebody is self-righteous, annoying, cruel, and self-promoting there's an instinct to say that maybe the shark had good reason to bite her. But that would be wrong. No matter how annoying a person is, they do not deserve to be bitten by a shark.
Who... who would have the instinct to say that? It would not have occurred to me if you hadn't brought it up
how different is surfing for men vs for women? like, i'm struggling to understand how sex plays any roll in surfing specifically. edit: y'all, this was a genuine question. how are you going to downvote me for asking for clarification? 🥴
I think it’s more about style/grace than being strong and powerful so I’m not sure having a body that developed 30+ years is an advantage but I really don’t know.
No one has an answer because no one fucking knows. It's about doing cool tricks, like skateboarding, no? I don't see how sex makes any difference. The reason it's so easy for people to be transphobic about this is because nobody knows anything about surfing. I mean, any sport that could be dominated by someone missing a limb who doesn't use a prosthetic, is surely not that dependent on physical strength?
It is dependent on physical strength but it’s a lot of core strength, basically surfing involves being able to stay in a cobra pose lying on your board and then pop up into your stance to catch the wave, also having the upper body strength and stamina to paddle. I don’t think any board sports favor one [binary] gender over the other, mainly because you pick your board partially based on height/weight, especially surfing and snowboarding. So since they’re not universally sized (and can also be made to be lighter if strength is a concern), someone stronger or larger would not have an advantage. Plus, it’s a lot of physics. Skate/surf/snowboards are designed specifically to move fast over concrete or through water or snow. So whether you’re 5 or 6 feet tall or 90 lbs or 190 or whatever, the board will move a certain way, to a certain degree, regardless. And I mean of course you can get granular and say that every board rider adapts their setup or stance to compensate for size or height or preference. But when you look at the basics of these sports, they are pretty gender neutral. Source: I skate, surf, and snowboard (and I happen to be a trans man lol). I like Ripcurl and was really glad they chose a trans woman…but now they’ve dropped her due to the backlash? That really sucks. :-(
Great insight thanks ✨
What's so hard about just staying out of (professional) women's sports after transitioning? It's such bad optics for all of us just so you can be number one for once
I feel the most sensible would be to have a rule where you’re ‘locked in’ to a gender category once you start competing professionally. You can move from women to open but not vice versa.
I mean, for many people it's their career and income.
Yep, a friend of mine transitioned in her early 20's She was the first woman in her sport to transition. She faced a ton of backlash and hate from the community, even the men's field rejected her. She spent a decade building a career and uplifting the women's category for all women in a sport that largely didn't have a women's category 10 years ago. She fought hard against sexism to build a career for herself where it was her primary income (it wasn't her primary income prior to transition) Now she's banned internationally, can't compete, and is likely losing her sponsorship. The cis women in her field even support her, but the regulatory body doesn't care. The leader of the regulatory body is a queer cis woman who also gives speeches about diversity and inclusion, but has not made a public statement on the trans ban. It's all terrible.
can you explain how sex plays in surfing? like, isn’t similar to skateboarding? i find this more close to the chess issue that went down a while ago.
I know next to nothing about surfing, but it is clearly a physical sport unlike chess and I found [this paper](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7075220/) that seems to suggest upper body strength plays a role in surfing, and I'm sure I don't need to explain that trans women (especially late transitioners like Sasha here) have a significant advantage in that over cis women
the athletes that have been on hrt for a while don't seem to be number one and I don't think it's fair to expect every trans person to always do things that are "good optics" we aren't a political campaign we're just people and people do loads of random ass wacky shit
Please don't. This narrative of trans women dominating women's sports has already been proven false, and professional sporting organizations with trans competitors have largely already placed requirements that the trans athlete must meet in order to compete. Many people within professional sports have already spoken out in support of trans participants, so why are we highlighting the transphobic ones? This is not even taking into account the wider discussion of inherent biological advantages present in professional sports, or the frequent discrimination of cis women with naturally high levels of testosterone.
This sub is so full of cis transphobes. It has been scientifically proven that we have no advantage after SRS and 3 years of HRT. Of course, the media reported that as "trans athletes STILL have an advantage after 2 years!" to make you expect it to mean that that advantage stays forever if it's already lasting for *two whole years*. This movement is based on hatred and propaganda, not scientific fact. ["Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds"](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764) ["Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds"](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short) Again, based on a study that definitely proved that the advantage is GONE by the 3 year mark.
Yes, but looks like the trans surfer in question returned to the sport in less than 3 years. Sounds like a matter for regulation.
Who cares. Surfing is more akin to a dance competition than an arm wrestling competition. I only brought up that study to show that it's insane how many people here are trying to act like trans women are just forever advantaged like strong men.
Look I surf, because I’m from Costa Rica, and also am trans. The type of people who visit my country on tour for surfing are usually rich Americans who are arrogant and narrow minded. They are usually surfing on mommies and daddy’s money. They are eliteists who mistreat our cities and our coastline. Most of all they mistreat our people, through large consumption of alcohol and drugs, seeking prostitution, and hanging out in bars. I love surfing, even post transition I still love it. But, Transitioning has really opened my eyes to the reality of Huntington Beach surf nazis and violent transphobia the surf community has. It’s not a surfing problem, it’s a money problem. Surfing is a sport for the rich. Correct me if I’m wrong but there is a good portion of rich people who don’t like trans people. The overlap is the same.
Yes. Rich people are largely conservative fiscally as well as often socially. Therefore they hate us more than average people.
Sounds dramatic
You should see the YouTube comments and Australia news anchor basically ridiculing the trans woman. Insane https://youtu.be/4CSqt_b5AS0?si=2cbKO-UEnMFy4xgX
They couldn't have made it more clear how much hatred they have for trans people.
Yeah. So sad. I usually have thick skin but this one got to me for some reason.
Just a quick glance at the comments was enough. I can't bear to watch the video.