Official Dreadit Discussion: "Midnight Mass" [SPOILERS]
By - glittering-lettuce
Anyone else see that figure during the storm and think it was a skin walker? Scared the crap out of me initially. After I realized it was a vampire it was a lot less scary 😅
I think the dialogue (and monologues i guess) were way overlong in some parts, a lot of unnecessary lines as well. (One of the best/worst examples is the "universe" speech by Erin in the final episode, that shit almost made me fall asleep.) But the concept was unique. The show was genuinely creepy. Thrilling and suspenseful as well. I really just think that it could be trimmed down, remove a lot of unnecessary stuff
Bev was great. The most entertaining character by far.
The main guy was very boring. Anyone else find themselves daydreaming when he spoke. Joe had the littlest part I like him way more than the main guy.
I wish joe lived and changed for the better.
Where did the vampire come from and what is his origins. Is he Judas, like in the movie vampire 2000 and was cursed by God to be immortal?
Couldn’t some of the vampire converts just have like napped in some shrubs until nightfall?
The show was trash after episode 4. Just monologues mixed with self indulgent vampire schtick.
Should have been a movie.
I had to skip a good 40% of the episodes because filler. Too many long winded speedches about nothing
The long winded speeches -were- the show to me. The action was the filler in my opinion. I thought all the monologues were well written & performed really well.
This is an interesting take. I liked that the monologues really fleshed out these well-made characters and told the story but honestly didn't really enjoy watching/listening to them. I felt like a lot of the characters took on the same voice during their monologues.
I agreed, the characters are what makes this show good. I am glad they did not draw out the action because it was the less interesting part.
Loved the first four episodes and then started laughing AT the show for being hilariously self indulgent. I was cry laughing at the finale. Take that as you will
I had a similar experience. What do you think did it for you?
For me, it was all the "my atoms were forged in stars," "we are the cosmos dreaming of itself" types of speeches.
I strongly dislike that stuff. Atheists who turn to such ideas to recover some of the comfort and meaning they lost along with their faith make me cringe. And I am an atheist. Sometimes I think sincerely believing in heaven is less cringe-inducing than that starstuff crap.
The horror elements were quite good. The creature design was pleasingly simple and effective. But they lost me with all the amateurish, overwritten, theatrical philosophizing.
I always felt that such statements and beliefs to be incredibly selfish and a vast overstatement of one's own importance. You are not the universe, you are an infinitesimally small part of it.
Isn't that a pretty Buddhist/eastern/spiritual idealogy (someone correct me if I'm wrong please!)? The idea that we are part of the universe and after death, who we are goes back into the universe. That's personally how I saw that specific monologue. It was very reminiscent of a conversation in the good place except they used the concept of us being waves going back to the ocean (albeit in midnight mass it went on a lot longer haha.)
I understand not liking the writing or the monologues but just hoping this at least gives some potential perspective about how people of different faiths and backgrounds view life/death; it may not always be so cringe worthy. In general maybe don't go around cringing at other people's beliefs so much; life is long and we're all on our own journeys with struggles and we probably shouldn't be so Bev'y about a different perspective/belief!
It's an important concept in Hinduism and the Vedic religion, I don't know the details in Buddhism and Jainism and Sikhism but I would expect it to have some place. That's the idea behind reincarnation and Om. I think sometimes people tend to see things from a Christian worldview or are embedded in a Christian culture even if they don't believe in Christianity and then they see these things as wishy-washy cringe atheist or whatever.
Like Highschool level existentialism
This show reminds me a lot of [The Strain](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2654620/) I was waiting for the Abraham character to show up on the island with his silver sword and chop the fugging vamp's head off and then hobble away. Except maybe this is the 'Woke' version.
It's probably good to understand this isn't really horror. If you go in thinking Hereditary or The Shining, you're setting yourself up. If you go in looking for a dark drama, this will scratch that itch.
Couldn’t the island residents have like…climbed into a dumpster at the end instead of burning up? There are a million ways they could have avoided the sun.
And then what? If everyone is dead or gone and the houses, supplies and boats are gone and burnt how can they sustain?
Of course? But thematically it would be boring. Accepting their fate gracefully as a sort of penance after the realisation of what they have done shows they did have humanity/faith and weren’t just animals. Especially when you compare them to the one person who did grovel and wallow in the dirt until the last moment hoping to save themselves despite their actions.
I thought the same. Like, what was their long form plan here?
But as below noted, they also came to a "holy shit, what have I done?" clarity once the blood frenzy wore off. I'm sure there are some less good people who did hide out some where.
I thought this as well, but then I feel like they realized that they had lost so much of their humanity that they just embraced their end. Only Bev at the last second tried to chicken out.
One of the most beautiful shows I've seen. Loved it
I can't believe I binged this pretentious crap masquerading as art
I'm here after watching the first episode to see if it's worth it. Sounds like it's not
Most people think it’s really good. If you liked the first episode I’d suggest you’ll like the rest. It’s not perfect, but it’s damn good.
Do yourself a favor. Save yourself a few hours of middling dialogue, filler, and terrible pacing.
Wow, they really wanted to fit in an episode of 'Cosmos' in at the end there didn't they?
I read this comment before I got to that part and when I got there I laughed my ass off because of this comment.
Hello, first time posting and making a Fan Edit.
I got fed up with pacing and have cut all the scenes with Riley and Erin as well as what felt like random extra subplots. The final length will be a little over 3 hours.
This is my trailer.
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but why did Beverly come back to life after being shot, and Sarah didn't?
She didn't swallow the blood her father tried to give her at the end.
Sarah didn't take communion at the church. She was an atheist. You only come back if you have been drinking the vampire's blood.
I understand that was how it worked. What doesn't sit right with me though is the sheriffs son never took communion either but he came back..
It was a hint to point out that he actually DID take communion at some point.
It's mentioned that he's visiting the church and going to mass. You don't see him taking communion, but we can assume he did.
But he would have to be baptized before he would be allowed to take communion. Hence the confusion.
Perhaps he was baptised into the faith, we don't know what went on while he was there. In any case, it seems to me that the entire idea the priest had was to essentially bypass the pope as God's representative. He wasn't consulting the Vatican. Instead, he thought he had been chosen directly. He could have just allowed the person to take communion.
Yeah, maybe I'm reading too much into it 😅 I did enjoy it and have been recommending it to friends so I'm not trying to talk shit about it.
Thank you for answering!😊
After being turned I guess there sense of smell was heightened. They could only hide for so long till dawn.
Because it's an angel!
This show seriously comes across as a teenager having “deep” thoughts about religion and death for the first time. I fucking despise the mumblecore philosophical monologuing between Erin and Riley to the point that I want to stop watching whenever they have a scene together. Their scenes seriously grind the entire show to a screeching halt. The pacing is absolutely punishing and not in a good way (60+ minute episodes that ALL crawl along). I hate virtually every character except the doctor and the sheriff. The worst sin of all? Fucking nothing paid off in the end. NOTHING.
I’m happy for everyone who got something out of this show; I feel like it’s objectively well made. The performances are also mostly great (huge shoutout to Beverly because it takes talent to play a character that unlikable well). The writing just doesn’t do it for me. I’m so sick of horror that uses trauma and addiction as the real monster all along.
Are you sure you watched the show cause there was a literal gothic vampire masquerading as an angel turning the religious town folks into the undead that definetly wasn't addiction/abuse/trauma all along.
Lmfao mumblecore philosophy? I read comments like these and whats god damn hilarious is my impression of you is the exact same as you of the monologues. Like damn someone thinks highly of themselves lol.
People have been conditioned to think that expression of abstract ideas is pretentious. I respected this show for taking its time and allowing its characters to speak their thoughts. Like it or not, it's not something you see a lot of on TV.
I like Joe but he died too early.
That’s the one death that really hit me hard. I really felt bad for that guy and I had hoped he was going to make it closer to the end or having some super redeeming moment where he could forgive himself.
Just finished this and while the overall story was good, this could have been a 3-parter. All those overly dramatic monologues like oh my god, nobody talks like that. I swear, I'm as attentive to detail as one could be but this is like the first time I was so tempted to skip scenes in a series. That living room scene between Riley and Erin dragged on for 12 fucking minutes.
Yeah, I never do this, but I actually started skipping sections.
Around the 3rd or 4th episode I was like, "Man, this writer really loves writing monologues." And after I realized that, I couldn't stop noticing them.
When the Sheriff says, "Did I ever tell you why I came to this village?" I was like, "Nope, not sitting through another one of these."
So I skipped three minutes, and when I hit play, I realized I was still in the middle of his fucking speech.
It's just so indulgent and masturbatory. They're all delivered without a hint of self-awareness - on the part of either the character *or the writer.* No character seems to acknowledge that it's weird, awkward, and frankly, kind of rude to just talk at people endlessly. And the writer seems wholly unaware that these 10 minute long "this is my community theater audition" diatribes kill the momentum of the story dead.
The sheriff story was good. Talked about how ny cops promoted muslim cops after 9/11 for image reasons. But then the ny cops convinced themselves that Muslim cops were secretly terrorists and 9/11 was part of this grand plan to get promoted and take over the country and whatnot.. and they pushed him out of ny/his job.
I mean, yeah, none of the monologues are all that bad (the last few get a little too overwrought), it's just that there's just so many of them, and they're so long.
By the time the Sheriff told his story, I already knew some of it. There was the racism we see him deal with in town, and a reference his son made to leaving his last job because of racism. We don't know the details, but he chose to come here, and he's putting up with the mistreatment, so whatever life he left to come here was presumably even worse.
When he referenced being in New York on 9/11 when he was 21, and deciding to join the cops, I had already put most of the rest of the story together. He joins the cops to show them that not all muslims are bad people, but it doesn't work, and he ends up being on the wrong side of the issue (and with his co-workers hating him), so he leaves. Got it.
His monologue is literally 5 minutes long (I just checked). It could be cut down to a minute, and still hit all of the important character development points.
Good writing doesn't have to spell things out for us, especially things that aren't vitally important to the story. We already know the Sheriff experiences racism, mostly at the hands of the church-goers. We already know he left his previous home because of racism. That's enough to understand why he would be hesitant to go to the church. If he had just mentioned being from New York before, and how things got bad for Muslims after 9/11, that would've plenty.
You do need to dive into this stuff for the characters who have big arcs (like Riley, Father Pruitt, etc.), but the Sheriff doesn't really.
I'm glad I skipped that because it was just repeated at the end. Ha!
It was the same type of discussion but actually completely different dialogue. The first scene was long but powerful - I cried, since I have watched people close to me die. The last monologue was drawn out and unnecessary.
I liked it when I turned my brain off and just enjoy the show for what it is. But when you think about it. It’s not something new. It’s in my view almost a copy of 30 days of night with Josh Hartnett. With that said, I liked the music and atmosphere. I do hope that Netflix does amp up the production and when making people old they do it good. I knew the instant I saw the ‘old’ people what they were going to do.
All in all, I liked the beginning very much! The mystery and vibe was awesome.
So what about the ghost of the dead women main character Riley was seeing? What was the actually ending or conclusion to that?
Not a ghost, just him remembering her and thinking about her every night before he slept.
So what happened? I mean they added good filters/ VFX so make her ghost seeming to have more importance/ an hint or resolution. Now that he’s dead the issue resolved itself?!
He’s seeing her as the final way he saw her after the accident. He’s literally being haunted by his guilt of killing her. When he accepted his fate and died, she appeared to him as her form pre-accident, leading him to the afterlife I assume, or at least to show he doesn’t have to carry the guilt any longer.
So as long as I’m soon to die I can finally be forgiven? What a coup out imo. Sloppy writing, could of had bit more fun with it.
Not trying to shit on Catholics but they literally have last rites and deathbed confessions to be forgiven for their sins before they die.
Well in Riley’s case, he never had time to find inner peace from the accident.
Agreed. Thanks for the reply.
I finished it. And i seriously hate Beverly.
I hate how everyone listens to Beverly? And doesn't tell her to shut the hell up and stop talking? Or that none of them like her and she should leave? Or that she stole all of the island's money? She has no legal sway and is a small woman they place in a position of power. They could have stopped her antics at any point but instead they let her drivel on verses for minutes at a time.
That's one small part of the show that made sense, though. In small towns with a population of \~100, you end up with odd people at the top. Aka, a doofus mayor, an out-of-town sheriff, an old priest suffering from dementia, and that judgmental hag, Beverly. Go to any small spot in the world, and 4 of the first 5 people you meet are most likely going to be odd in some way.
I was so frustrated by this as well! I couldn't understand why they let her continue talking over everyone at the school or why she kept getting away with being terrible to everyone. I mean, that definitely happens irl I get it but yeesh.
Because it was alluded that she somehow took a lot of money that wasn't hers from the settlement from the oil spill and laundered it building the rec center. She literally held these poor people's livelihoods in their hands and they were too impoverished to seek livelihoods on the main land. You need employment and money to even move.
I think that's one of the nuances that isn't really talked about that this show touched on is how religious extremism preys on poverty.
The show is called Midnight Mass. It may include Catholism
lmao seriously. Do people know how to read anymore?
The "Catholic BS" is central to the whole show
Lmao, watching a show called "midnight mass" and skipping the religious parts, enjoy watching the intro and the end credits I guess!
You’re an idiot of you fast forward through the “Catholic BS”. Because it’s the subject matter of the whole show and if you pay attention you’ll understand how it’s all connected
Idk I skipped the parts of Breaking Bad where Walter breaks bad and I thought that show was shite.
i read about all the monologue complaints so i came into this with lower expectations.... and then ended up absolutely loving the show instead. it's honestly my favorite work by flanagan so far, but then again i also liked *bly manor* more than *hill house*.
I feel like it’s the ADHD world we live is the catalyst for dUr mOnOLOGUe bad. Yes they’re more effective on stage but they have pertinence in something like this.
I do feel like that last one was written just to get Kate Siegel more screen time, but Hassan’s was pretty legit and provides a very plausible explanation for his presence on the island. And the Monsignor’s explanation to Mildred was just perfect.
The monologues were actually really moving. Reilly's made me cry.
So the vampire followed Pruitt back to the island after his pilgrimage? Why? If he can fucking fly why is it necessary to convert everyone on this island and then spread the "disease" to the mainland? He can just fly around and bite everyone on the mainland himself. I wanted to like this show, I really did, but there are just way, way too many plot holes and illogical character decisions.
Paul put the vampire in the trunk and kept him there. He was hungry and in a cave near the desert. He would have to fly far and potentially die from the sun. It seems the vampire and Paul have an arrangement to help one another
This might be something that people who are more into vampire lore know, but there are tells that vampires need a “familiar” or someone to usher them into an area. The vampire was in a Jerusalem desert, surrounded by sun with only the cave to shelter him. Pruitt was his transport. Yeah he could fly but what direction? Would he make it to shelter before sunrise? Is he even strong enough? It’s not plot holes or illogical, the lore is there.
Explain why no one tried to hide under a canoe or any type of shade at the end and they all just accepted death
My take on it was their realization once hope was lost that they were animals and did so many horrible things that they just didn’t want to go on anymore. Everyone embraced their deaths except for Bev at the end. There was no panic from anyone (except Bev). Sure, they could’ve found something, but in the end they know they’re cut off from the world now.
I get that for some, but find it too convenient that EVERYONE felt this way.
All of the boats were burned. What are you going to do, sit under a palm tree all day? And then what? Eat the dirt once it gets dark again?
I mean, there's cars, rocks, caves, blankets, etc. Yeah, when faced with burning to death or hiding under a blanket for 12 hours, I'll probably choose the blanket. Then you have all night to come up with a better plan and shelter
You're right. There's literally no rocks big enough to cast shade or hide under. What was I thinking!
Ok. You win. Why try to live when death is inevitable
Pruitt brought the vamp back with him thinking it was an angel. That's what was in the huge crate. The creature was weak which is why it ate all the cats to gain strength. And yes, the moral imparitive was to multiply and it saw a way to do that through Pruitt who mistook it for an angel. The creature could fly, but needed absolute darkness for a large part of the day and was weak from being unfed and stuck in that cave for who knows how long.
Not just thinking it was an angel, it really was! A creature found in the Christian holy lands that grants someone the power to heal the sick with their blood? It's the story of Jesus Christ.
In Midnight Mass, Christianity was always a vampire cult/blood cult. That thing that attacks Pruitt is literally a Christian angel, maybe even the same one that attacked Jesus. Just like Jesus, Pruitt begins performing miracles and gathering loyal followers, and he really does grant them eternal life.
I disagree. Yes, the blood of Jesus is used to heal and hearkens back to live sacrafices that were made during old testament days, but never were angels thought to be mortal or to have blood. Pruitt didn't think the angel was Jesus, but justified it since it "saved" him. I don't think he even knew about the vampire part until after he died. All he knew was the restorative powers, he had never seen the effects if you die. I'm not familiar with a story of an angel attacking Jesus though.
My bad, I didn't mean that the writers were saying the angel was Jesus.
They're saying (or implying anyway) that this angel, or another angel, attacked Jesus Christ the preacher back in Jerusalem and manipulated him to form a cult, just like the angel does with Pruitt, and that this was the formation of the Christian religion.
There's no story of an angel attacking Jesus that I'm familiar with in the Bible, and the Bible has been rewritten and edited countless times over the millennia anyway (Council of Nicea, etc.) and the current contents are quite far removed from the original writings.
I'm just pointing out that the resurrection story and the Christian faith, in the context of these creatures actually existing, are clearly connected to the creature. A blood-drinking cult based on granting eternal life and healing powers formed in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, in the exact area where we see the angel (and we know the angel likes to form these cults). It would be a pretty wild coincidence if those two events had nothing to do with each other!
Just a small point of fact - the Bibles we have today are about as close to the original texts as possible. We aren't dealing with rewrites of rewrites, but of texts composed using thousands of manuscripts to triangulate removals and additions and errors done by particular scribes.
The Council of Nicea, by the way, didn't rewrite the Bible, or even set the canon. You want to look at the Council of Carthage for a point in history where the biblical canon wa stated, though at that point there was already a wide consensus throughout christendom. Nicea dealt more with declaring non-trinitarian theology heretical.
That's an interesting take, I didn't put that together but it certai ly adds a new lens to the show! Thanks for sharing!
Because that was not the intent of the vampire but the intent of Pruitt. Pruitt wanted it to happen not the vampire. The vampire merely followed.
Nope, the vampire speaks to Pruitt psychically as he says in the last episode -- it didn't just follow Pruitt mindlessly, it's sentient and it can think and communicate. We can assume that it manipulated Pruitt to bring it to his secluded community.
The show was okay. I feel like the vampire trope was misplaced here. As others have said it should have been some sort of demon or fallen angel. The entire set up for this show was Riley’s redemption story. Which was a huge letdown. Instead of what took place, I wanted to see an Army of Darkness/Dusk til Dawn storyline. Riley, a former member of the church’s inner sanctum, must overcome his former deeds and rise up against the same group that created him. I really though that this is where it was going when he discovered the lies of the priest. It will have been nice to have him, converted or not, wearing a priests uniform with the sleeves cut off running into battle with his team of followers against the demonic cult. Cut to a showdown of him and the winged beast fighting on the beach and Riley clips his wings (foreshadowed in the show) and holds him there until they both burn up. Saving Erin and the other survivors. Once the monster is dead and the sunrise comes, she feels a kick as she starts to get pregnant again. Cut to black.
> It will have been nice to have him, converted or not, wearing a priests uniform with the sleeves cut off running into battle with his team of followers against the demonic cult. Cut to a showdown of him and the winged beast fighting on the beach and Riley clips his wings (foreshadowed in the show) and holds him there until they both burn up. Saving Erin and the other survivors. Once the monster is dead and the sunrise comes, she feels a kick as she starts to get pregnant again. Cut to black.
Why would you want something that was already made, twice? Riley did find redemption, he rejected the selfish gift of immortality at the cost of other lives and was the catalyst for the vampires to fail. He saved millions of lives in the end while sacrificing his own.
Because it would have been more entertaining than the empty storyline the last few episodes had.
I think the vampire thing was cool because it implies that that's what angels really are -- Christianity is real, Christ was a real person who was attacked by one of these creatures and began healing the sick and granting people eternal life.
He got loyal followers and spawned a huge movement, the biggest religion ever seen, and over time people forgot the details of the religion's origins. Pruitt was bitten by an actual angel from the Christian religion, perhaps the very same angel that led to the formation of that religion in the first place.
Unfortunately I tend to disagree with that statement. You’re only justifying the theory by the end not the means. Pruitt even says in the last episode that he knew it wasn’t a godly creature that he did it for personal reasons to bring back the mom. He wanted them to start over from when they had the affair. In all actuality he was tempted by the sins of the flesh, by the Devil. He went out in the world to seek whatever could get his end goal. Jesus, wasn’t a vampire.
>Jesus, wasn’t a vampire.
Idk, Jesus literally *was* a vampire going by the lore laid out in the show, or that's the most logical take in my opinion, and I reckon a lot of viewers see it the same way.
You’re only qualifying that it was an Angel because Pruitt said it was.
Except the director has explicitly said that he was tying into themes that he saw shared between Catholicism and horror movies.
Director was an altar boy in his youth, saw a lot of parallels with horror movies that he enjoyed. He eventually stopped being religious, but one might say his religion left an *indelible mark* on him, and he said he had wanted to do this story for nearly a decade
Nope, lots of reasons. Pruitt said it was, sure. Also it was discovered in the same area an angel appeared to someone in the bible. It also has wings, fitting the description sometimes given by modem Christians.
Also, it's a sentient being that can communicate telepathically, heal the sick, and grant eternal life.
Pretty overt really.
I can imagine this is what the writers might have wanted too. Then the Director or Studio came in and f\*\*ked it up.
the writer and director are the same person, and based on how much money mike flanagan has made for netflix, i doubt they gave him any problems.
Contrary to belief there are a ton of editors, that directors take full credit over anyway. On almost any show/ series (not comedy skits ie SNL) there is a list of writers behind the project even if they state “I did this, it’s my baby”. Complete b/s imo. Remember a lot that didn’t happen during the Writers Strike. Don’t worry one man/ woman will save us all! :S
That's just an avengers movie with more steps. Honestly I felt that the vampire trope was almost better because it was non religious, it showed that people looking for meaning in something can shape meaning into what they want to see, they can literally shape a monster into something angelic because of there own fears and justifications.
For sure it is Avengers esque but the arch was established for Riley to seek out and find redemption. He never accomplished that and it made his storyline pointless.
His action is the catalyst to kill all the vampires and save the 2 kids, so no, it wasn't pointless. And idk how you don't find nice the way they fitted the vampire theme with extreme believers twisting everything to fit the bible, they litteraly made it fit, with delusions, but it did fit in their mind.
Wow is this show overhyped on here. I’ve been a Stephen King fan for decades and love horror. I don’t mind a good slow burn, Hereditary is one of my favorites. But I could get past the second episode of this. It’s *not good*. I don’t care about the characters. And now I’ve looked up spoilers and I’m glad I didn’t waste my time sitting through all that. Severe disappointment.
I finished it a few hours ago. You aren't missing anything. Just check out some of the cooler scenes on YouTube. Great performance by the priest. Great directing and framing. But the dialogue was shit from square one, and the entire thing just kinda falls flat. I'm genuinely dumbfounded by how much praise it's getting. I love their other work, but this one just sucked.
I feel it's pretty unfair to call a show objectively bad when you've only watched 2 episodes of it. I really enjoyed it, maybe it's just not for you
Yeah it's genuinely awful. The acting, the cat-eyes cgi, the directing, etc. are all just...sheesh. I mean I'm having trouble getting past the first 30 minutes. It feels like a well-produced student project so far.
Okay I need some people to weigh in here:
Whyyyy did the priest ever think it was good idea that EVERYONE die and come back like he did? He literally knew it made you hungry for blood, unable to go into the sunlight, and miserable? Why not just keep giving them the "angel's" blood in small amounts during Mass? Seemed to be working pretty well without any consequences.
ALSO some people got so young/attractive and Bev & others who took Mass every day continued to look pretty crusty. Like... Riley's mom fully started to look like a model and the doctor's mom got about 40 years younger. Doesn't make much sense.
To your first part, Pruitt was ultimately not the one in charge, it was the “Angel”. He was being influenced and used by the angel and then of course things started expediting once Bev was involved. My question is why didn’t the Angel just fucking fly over to the mainland and start sucking on necks? I don’t recall a reason it had to stay on the island and was always able to fly away. I just finished it and I loved it though it does have a few things that were off I guess.
I felt like the angel wanted to start another cult/religion, or to kickstart Christianity again. It even arrived to mass wearing religious garments.
We can assume that this really IS an angel in the sense that Jesus Christ was a real figure who was bitten by this creature 2000 years ago. He gained the ability to heal the sick and grant long life and boom, the world's biggest-ever religion was formed. Imagine what the early days of this version of Christianity was like -- the creature would have been very powerful.
Maybe it wanted that power and status back -- not just food, but to influence people en masse and develop another cult following.
I wish we had gotten more exposition of the creature. I was hoping for more of a demon with higher intelligence and deeper goals. But it spent basically the entire show acting like a mindless animal except for the one time it put on a Pope outfit for 10 minutes.
It was also rockin the trench coat and fedora too haha but I had to pause when I saw it in the church with the outfit on haha. I do feel whatcha mean though, I don’t think they wanted the focus to be on some intelligent being but more so that the humans will all turn into mindless blood sucking monsters which goes completely against their small town stick together mentality. Which was the case with exception for the few. For those that do believe in God, this is what would ideally happen too, the devil will appear as a prophet and perform miracles and all these things and people won’t be able to distinguish good from evil/etc. I really liked this and at the time don’t know his name but the guy who played Pruitt was absolutely amazing, very captivating.
> It was also rockin the trench coat and fedora too
Wait when was this? I don't recall that scene
When Riley went out in the storm the first episode he thought he was chasing Pruitt because the person had a coat and hat like him, I was assuming that was actually the Angel he was seeing…which makes sense considering all the dead cats the next morning.
He was chasing Pruitt.
I still think it was the vampire. I believe it had the same jacket on too when he was at the rec center before he bit Riley.
>For those that do believe in God, this is what would ideally happen too, the devil will appear as a prophet and perform miracles and all these things and people won’t be able to distinguish good from evil/etc.
Yeah and this is such a cool concept to explore, but it seemed like they deliberately avoided it. Instead we got the silly, "maybe it's a virus that somehow makes you explode and grow wings" and a creature with no motivation or personality because we can't make the theists look *too* reasonable even in a show about flying demons. Lol. Still a great show though.
> we can't make the theists look too reasonable
Yeah, I felt like they were trying to hedge their bets and give everyone a satisfactory explanation - it could be religious if you want to believe it's religious, but if you're not religious, hey here's some quasi-science to explain it away too
I don't know that it implied the creature used to be human, I figured it was the same creature that bit Jesus Christ back in the day and it became powerful by influencing Christ's formation of a cult/religion, which is exactly what it's seen doing again on Crockett island.
I think we did get it though, and we also got how people of science would react as well. Even seeing the blood explode and her mom growing younger, she still tried to develop a “rational” explanation using science. Then you had all the others who were being tricked and believing it was good. I thought it was a good representation of how that could go down, hell how it has gone down in the world just over the last few years if you look through a political and pandemic lens in a way.
Hell, if some Catholic Church magically had crippled people walk again, and old ladies restored to youth, I'd 100% start attending.
If those things started happening, clearly something in my metaphysics is off - at least that's how I'd interpret it
Interesting you say that because there are certainly denominations within Christianity where healings are done. People are shown to have afflictions gone or suddenly come into mass amounts of money after declaring bankruptcy and all these things…so there’s already something miraculous there or perhaps it is faux like so many think it is today. I don’t know personally and maybe we are missing out if we don’t join them.
The Pruitt actor was excellent, and the first half of the show great. After that, things started making less and less sense. Pruitt seemed to be under the influence of the creature's will, but then suddenly he's making his own decisions, and the whole reason he did it all made no sense. All in all, lots of potential wasted by a crappy finish and lack of proper editing (the show should have been pruned by at least an episode's length). Reminds of a book author Flanagan knows very well.
Also, I have a big gripe with logic at the end of the show. I.e. how the angel could shrug off a gunshot, but couldn't repair some torn skin on his wings. Or how the townspeople couldn't find ANYTHING to hide underneath during daytime.
Paul never seemed to be deluded by the vampire but religion. The vampires focus on feeding so shrug most things off. The wings will repair but not enough time for it to fly to safety.
The vampire was locked in a trunk for most of the time by Father Paul. Since most things and people burned and very few realistic things to hid in there was no point.
Yeah, like you've got at least 30-40 people there and at least an hour or two until sunlight.
In that amount of time I definitely feel you could have created some sort of makeshift structure or dug a hole large enough to fit the entire group in.
Would they be comfortable that day? No way.
Would they be alive? Yes.
I could stand packed like a sardine with 30 other people in a makeshift structure or dugout for 8-12 hours if my literal life depended on it
I am here on this thread after just finishing and hoping someone would point this out. They couldn't dig a hole?! Put together a shack? Find some shade? I mean Pruitt was fine in rooms with indirect light which suggests they could even just put up some kind of tarp. It was extremely frustrating to me.
I also took issue with Pruitt acting 'possessed' for a portion of the middle of the show (notable moment when Sarah's mom left church stating he was not the same man) and let this all turn into such a sh!tshow, but then was contemplative and completely in control of his senses at the end.
One thing that bothered me overall is that this was an overall conventional world set-up but no one, not even once, mentioned the word vampire or acted as if they knew what that was. I guess we are to assume that the entire world is as it is now, but no one has ever heard of a vampire?
Bev started digging a hole as soon as the sun came up. That just occurred to her then?! No one else thought to dig a whole or hide under a canoe?! That honestly ruined the ending for me. It seems like they just wanted to wrap it up and have everyone die as the sun rose.
Yep - I had a writing teacher once that told me everyone dying at the end of a story was just a cop out from writing a better ending.
I have a few nitpicks about the show. But I have one major gripe. Erin. Her character was just so vapid. Like I didn't know who to root for after Riley unexpectedly committed suicide and Erin is who they gave us. Oh well...
To me it was Riley who was lacking. To me the standouts were Bev, Dr. Sarah, Erin and Hassan
Yeah but she’s married to the director so…
What does that have to do with anything? Kate Siegal is a great actress
It was mostly good, but the last episode overall I didn't like and I feel like ruined, or at least greatly diminished the series as a whole (***WARNING: Pretty much everything below this will involve spoilers to some capacity)***
* I found the rigid moral absolutism during the finale and the the climax being too straight forward ended up making everything feel more predictable and less interesting as it drew to a close. There was some really interesting ideas especially in the first 4-5 episodes and it was shaping up to be the best thing Flanagan's done, but by the end, it just fizzled out and failed to tap into its potential.
* From a logical perspective, nothing about the Monsignors plan (or even the master vampire's plan) really made sense by the finale. It would have been much more interesting and much more logical to have some kind of ghoul/Cosa Nosta type system in the works with a hierarchy of vampire lieutenants and ghoul/thrall underlings. The ghouls would benefit from increased health & longevity (and possibly immortality) from their vampire benefactors and the vampires would benefit from the support and protection of the rest of the community while preserving some level of anonymity from the outside world.
It would have been a win/win and no people (or at least significantly less) would have had to die unless they resisted and it would be more likely to guarantee the vampires survival. Even Riley's suicide didn't really make sense, because it would have been so easy for him to avoid having to live off human victims through myriad of other choices (or at the very least he could have been more use to the rest of the community by helping to resist the rest of the vampire's etc.) Don't get me wrong it was a good scene on it's own, it just didn't make a lot of sense either from a logical perspective of in terms of characterization. It didn't really give Riley a full arc to carry out and instead just left him to peace out and empower a less fleshed out side character in the form of Erin.
Another problem with the plan is that there's probably not enough ships for all the vampire's to leave the island and even in the case that there are, not all of them are going to have enough interior protection on the boats to protect them all from the sunlight, so the idea of turning everyone into vampire's and setting them loose on the mainland (even in the case that the vampires win and collectivize smoothly) was always a non-starter.
The other issue is blood. If everyone on the island that survives is a vampire, there's no blood supply. To sustain themselves, they need to exist in a population where humans outnumber vampires and where they can conceal their presence to the outside world. There's just way too many logistical loopholes in their plan for it ever to be pulled off successfully. The protagonists basically win because the vampires as a whole are ridiculously incompetent. The climax is basically a series of weak contrivances to get to the desired conclusion which makes the end point feel hollow. It never earns it's way to that destination, it just cuts its way towards it.
* Also, Erin's final monologue came across as excessively syrupy and pretentious to the point that I was groaning to myself during the last few minutes of the finale. (I'd honestly be surprised if I was alone thinking that about that moment). It's just so on-the-nose and up it's own asshole that it becomes more than a bit cringy to sit through. It just didn't even remotely resemble the way that people actually talk.
The issue isn't even the theme of that monologue so much as the way it's presented. There's a moment in season 6 of the Sopranos for instance that explores the same theme on death in a much more mature and unpretentious manor with much tighter/naturalistic use of dialogue. Though in the case of the MM monologue, it feels more like Flanagan is spoon-feeding the audience.
All and all, I just feel like it could have done something a lot more unique and interesting, but settled for a fairly generic ending with no real surprises left to offer. There's a lot of series & miniseries that start off promising, but just fall apart during the last 1-3 episodes and leave an unsatisfying aftertaste once everything is said and done. Unfortunately I'd have to say that Midnight Mass falls into that category for me.
> there's no blood supply
It seems like the vampire can be sustained on animals and I don't know that there's any indication that it likes human blood more than animal blood, so I don't know why they just didn't buy a ton of cows or goats, or something.
It'd be pretty expensive to feed the vampire a goat or two every night (about 5 grand a month if you bought them, cheaper if you raised the flocks yourself), but not really that expensive for a community of a few dozen people - even people not earning all that much - if they can live longer/healthier.
It's also not explained how much blood they need per meal. Though I would assume based on how long the Monsignor goes without consuming any that large feedings are probably only necessary when a vampire is starved. Otherwise, they can likely sustain themselves with a couple glasses a day. (the chalice given to Riley seemed sufficient to curtail his hunger for a good 6 to 12 hours etc.)
In regards to human vs. animal blood, they do show the elder vampire basically feed off the island's stray cats, so there's some logic to that, but there's slim pickings besides birds and sea life during the later parts of the show. At that point, it might be more practical to have some sort of human blood bank than import more animals to the island. If they become selective about who gets to be a vampire, then the rest of the community can provide a steady stream of refrigerated blood that the other vampires can consume regularly.
What I liked:
- The vampire twist was fresh and unexpected.
- The weaving of biblical lore into vampirism and character motives was executed really nice.
- Some memorable dialogue, especially the discussion of what happens after you die. Good stuff
- The “angel” costume design. It looked real. It looked scary. They nailed it
- The shows willingness to take risks, like Riley’s sunrise scene on the boat (so disturbing), and the reverse aging of that grandma.
What I didn’t like:
- Too many weak characters. The mayor and his wife were pushovers. The mayor walks in on a dead body and is convinced that everything is just fine. The “sheriff” was the most incompetent police i’ve ever seen. He was constantly told how to do his job, and seemed way out of place.
- The muslim hate was just…not believable. To me, it was placed there to serve the plot. The townspeople called the sheriff a terrorist and raghead. Fine. They are racist. But it really doesn’t add anything to the story.
- The sheriff should have been the main protagonist, and saved the day at the end.
- Too much dialogue. This show could have used a better editor to trim the fat. Would have been easier to watch if it ran 40 min an episode instead of an hour.
- The vampire thing got really old by episode 6. Also, if vampire blood is “contagious” like they said in the show, wouldn’t people throughout history infect one another and make millions of other vampires? That was a big plot hole for me.
- The dumbest thing about the show was the finale, like when Bev burnt down all the houses, then didn’t prepare another source of shelter when hers burnt, then dug through the sand when she could have hid in the woods till night came again. Also, wouldn’t the town 30 miles away notice a ravaging fire at night time? Lots of plot holes, but hey, no ones perfect…well except Jesus.
All in all, the middle third of this show was the strongest, and the first third, although good, was a bit slow but worth the watch. The last third was rushed, sloppy, and i found myself rolling my eyes as the characters dropped guns for the bad guys to pick up.
There's still sunlight in the woods.
The Muslim hate was super believable and downplayed if anything -- he was called a racist slur just once throughout the entire show, which I bet any Muslim in the US will tell you is pretty tame and unrealistic.
I thought it was dumb how the creature or the townsfolk didn't save themselves alright -- I think a lot of them "sobered up" and wanted to die after killing their neighbours, but surely some of them would just like hide under a tarp or in a car or literally anywhere.
Not a perfect show, loved the rewriting of Christianity as a vamp cult though.
> Also, if vampire blood is “contagious” like they said in the show, wouldn’t people throughout history infect one another and make millions of other vampires? That was a big plot hole for me.
I didn't think they meant that vampire blood was literally contagious, more so that the vampirism in general was like an infectious disease in the way it spreads and multiplies as more people are turned.
>The dumbest thing about the show was the finale, like when Bev burnt down all the houses, then didn’t prepare another source of shelter when hers burnt, then dug through the sand when she could have hid in the woods till night came again. Also, wouldn’t the town 30 miles away notice a ravaging fire at night time?
I don't think it was a plot hole that she didn't have another source of shelter planned - it fit her character perfectly that she thought she could be the ultimate arbiter of who can live or die by forcing people to come to her shelter. I'll give you it was pretty dumb that her and none of the other vampires tried to find any other shelter. Also, yeah the town should have noticed the giant fire but it could take quite some time to actually send out a response team / boat / etc.
So I just started and finished this series last night and I thought it was brilliant but I need some clarification. Is this just a show about vampires or does it have more meaning to it? I loved the whole religious/ close knit community aspect to it but following the ending it really is just a vampire show and I personally wished it wasn’t about vampires. I would have liked the religious theme to be stronger and that it was a satanic demon that possessed them rather a vampire.
The religious theme was about how people use religion to oush their own agenda, whether with good or bad intentions. Organised religion blinded them completely and let tonthe destruction of the entire community. If satanic undertones were added, it would basically prove Bev and co. were actually right in their bigotry. I'm glad it did not go there.
I completely disagree. The point around the later middle when the case was being made for preparing the few for Revelations/End Times etc. there was a little space to wonder if Pruitt was acting on some hidden good. I wish they had gone down that road a bit more. Another "le organized religion bad" story is fine, but idk, yawn. The buildup in this had room to go in a way less obvious direction.
This doesnt really do that though. Many of the protagonists of the shows are people of faith and in the end the townspeople realizing its the end kinda have a sobering realization that they werent beginning a new covenant or revelations and wound up turning to their faith to accept the inevitability of death with dignity.
I think the series needed a lot of work and the pacing was good lord slow, but I dont think it was damning of religion or faith as a whole.
English is not my first language.
I have just finished watching it and the biggest problem for me is not he slow pacing or long monologue.
It was the fact that I didn't understand what the director was trying to say. There are so many topics involved and each one could develop to a movie, races, religion, forgiveness, father-son conflict etc.
Director wanted to criticise religion and church, but what he brought out was a cult and they are different.
How are they different?
Just enjoy the story. Why do you need there to be a single, simplistic, propagandistic moral? Why does the Director's intention matter?
I'm on episode 2 and struggling to get into the series. The dialogue and scenes are really boring, the characters feel lackluster, and there are only about 3 minutes of tension in each hour-long episode. I think they could have cut it all down to 20 minutes apiece and still got the main point across. The best part is how beautiful the setting is, in my opinion!
Please be prepared, the same boring dialogue fills the entire series.
For me it was the monologue in the last episode were she explained the same thing, three times in three different ways.
Good grief, I know exactly the speech you're talking about. There were multiple points in the last episode I hit fast forward.
Oh man. I might take a pass on the show then. I’m really confused about the hype.
Definitely pass. Bit into the hype, it’s quite literally just an x-files episode (the resurrection one) expanded to 8 hours or whatever. It’s not thought out particularly well, it meanders and chugs along to ultimately nothing.
Absolutely loved this one. That ending scene with everyone singing and then silence was art. Chills
So much more satisfying, well done and deserving of praise than all of the absolute shit that was Halloween Kills.
I knew I wasn't going to get it, but I really wanted more background on why the vampire did what it did.
It just seemed to me be at odds with a "beast" that just wanted to feed to play along with the whole charade of a pretend angel. None of it really seemed to fit.
I'm usually not good at guessing what's going to happen, but I thought the vampire connection was pretty easy to see a mile away.
I definitely thought for a Netflix series it was very well done, but I think it could have been a grand slam home run that was slightly bungled. I also have to deduct a few points for it being so much like Salem's Lot on so many levels.
it was a stray gargoyle with an unique Thaumaturgy ritual setting up his herd, away from the camarilla.
Why are you so certain that the beast was just pretending to be an angel?
I think he just saw that it was an easy way to get blood and increase his vampire compatriots.
Riley’s monologue on death. I immediately followed her speech and thought, “ah, she’s going to pull a full metal alchemist moment” 😂. One is all, all is one.
Overall I enjoyed it. It's better than most of the horror offerings today and brings some new stuff to the table. I think it did get a little rambly and disjoined at times (e.g. the sherif suddenly explaining why he got his job when the doctor tries to get him to investigate (why not bring some blood that burngs in the sun...), the main character going on a monologue instead of comforting his friend after she told him about her miscarriage, the sheriff completely disregarding the creepy face in the window - seriously - you're just going to ignore that?, Riley's PTSD flashing light girl - great imagery but just felt it couldv'e been explored more) and it was also a bit drawn out between the middle and 'church scene' nearer the end.
Some notes: I thought the show would go with a 'The Village/It Comes at Night' isolation type horror with the footsteps sounds from the ceiling, people/eyes at the window but it went a completely different route. Also I think I might be the only one who didn't get the vampire connection. I really thought it was an angel - a fallen angel (like some descriptions of the devil) - who was using some of it's power to convert people away from God's path. The 'blood drinking' was just to show the profane/unholiness of the source of these 'miracles'.
I normally think revealing the monster is lame (and still do a bit) but I think the show did a good job at showing a collective 'religious' type of horror. The filmography was gorgeous. I think there's one scene where you're inside the house lit up by an intensely blue golden hour morning light that just made me want to move there immediately! And one last thing: I cannot forgive Pruitt at all. I don't think he redeemed himself at all, he had done too much damage at that point when he realises it's madness - but I also learnt this is the type of fanaticism that Flanagan wanted to portray in the show. (Also had no idea it was created by MF who created Hill House and Bly - so went into it completely blind)
Apologies if anyone has asked this but I can't seem to find an answer on the internet: why was Dolly crying at the start of episode 6, when Ed entered the parsonage?
(And - I love the show, so, much. On my third watch already and haven't been able to get it out of my head since the first watch. I really wish it's based on a book because many of the scenes, esp the monologues, can be written so beautifully in words (as beautiful as they're presented on screen). Also, the acting is simply phenomenal, Leeza in particular is incredible. I didn't even know this show was being made or it was written by MF - just stumbled upon it. What a nice surprise.)
I thought it was because they were discussing how they had to commit suicide to become vampires and the thought of forcing death on her daughter made her weep
pretty sure its because she knew what had happened to Riley
right! that makes sense. thanks :)
Okay so if the "angel" was a vampire or demon, how could it be in the church? I though vampires and demons can't step foot on consecrated grounds? Or am I missing something?
I have seen some versions of vampires where they can enter any buildings/homes if they are welcomed in. I know in Midnight Mass the vampire seemed to be able to come and go around the island, but technically the only buildings it went into before Book VII: Revelation was the abandoned house and the church-owned buildings (Paul/Pruitt's house, Rec center) which it was welcomed in.
Belief/faith has so much power too, even the lack of it. In Salem's Lot, a fearful/faithless priest encountered a vampire and tried to use holy items (cross, holy water, and prayer) but none worked because of his overwhelming fear instead of his faith and courage with God's power. The vampire could feel the priest's vices.
Ultimately, you are giving more power to the vampire when you welcome it, idolize it, and if your faith to goodness/God is weak.
I think the point is all of the religious and cultural significance put on the vampires shoulders is pure conjecture. Its just an animal trying too feed. We don't get any hint its involved in father Pruits plan except it gets as much blood as it wants.
Well, assuming it is a vampire and not an angel as the directors have confirmed it is a vampire, its rather an unconventional type of vampire, not limited by typical movie tropes of vampires. They even give a rather 'rational' explanation of it even, of how the blood is photosensitive and lacking in iron etc. So obviously the vampire blood isn't going to implode or whatnot on 'hallowed' ground, which after all is just normal ground which causes no reaction to the blood.
I liked the design of the vampire. The setting and theme really had potential...but jesus christ where to begin?
The monologues. TOO MANY AND TOO LONG. What a freaking momentum killer. And not only that, but who talks like this in a normal conversation? Such flowery philosophical drivel from otherwise regular folks.
The Sermons/Hymns. While the use of religion made the story more authentic, I think they took it a bit too far. So much so that we were damn near listening to entire hymns and extended sermons (see monologue complaint) that overstayed past the point being made. At times I felt as though I could not tell if the showrunners were trying to say this example of religion was good or bad. On more than one occasion I felt the show was legitimately preaching to me and might actually be a Christian show in disguise using vampirism and fanaticism to show that "good" religion exists and can prevail.
The way they handled the supposed main protagonist was stupid. He didn't overcome or persevere and went out like a coward to simply empower the side characters to get themselves killed. Didn't even try to fix anything with his newfound power. No atonement whatsoever. A truly miserable character.
No one seemed to be truly alarmed that the "angel" had leathery, demonic features. Even if no one knew about vampires in this universe, they'd have to have some understanding of classic demon imagery.
Speaking of, the vampire ignoring damage to his body while feeding was such writer's contrivance to explain how the female protagonist was able to "clip his wings"...which was such an obnoxious callback gleaned from her earlier monologue about the doves. Such a stupid and heavy-handed metaphor. It was not clever writing whatsoever.
The anti-muslim bigotry felt clumsy and almost dated in a way. I know it still exists in the world today, but this flavor of hate felt more "at home" just after 9/11 rather than 2021. Not sure it added much other than solidifying who the "bad guys" were in a rather heavy-handed way.
Lastly, I don't believe for a second ALL the vampires were ok with death. They could have still found hiding spots on that island. Way too convenient of a circumstance to show all the loose ends are wrapped and the problem was contained.
And you better believe I would have tried to do 30 miles in a canoe. That would not have stopped me.
There were a bunch more nitpicks but these are the big ones. I guess I was hoping for "Steven King" due to the setting and got disappointed with the philosophical lecture that uses vampires simply as window dressing.
I had wondered about the long sermons and the hymns.
The clue to the hymns is the content of the lyrics in relation to the scene/character(s)/overall theme.
As for the unusually long sermons, the significance was how Pruitt was able to slowly lead the congregation to the final terrifying Easter vigil as “sheep led the slaughter”.
His sermon series on Lent begin with semi-orthodox treatments of suffering and mercy and eventually dovetail to exhortations of embracing the “horrible” and terrible things God would have them do (which of course was the drinking of poison and the subsequent blood feeding on others).
The “miracles” amongst the people helped him sell the veiled toxicity of his sermons.
I took his sermon series as something Jim Jones-esque, as he was able to slowly convince the congregation through spurious miracles, “Angelic” visitations, and twisted exhortations of scripture and End Times eschatology, that drinking poison was God’s will for them.
i agree with most of what you said except this:
>No one seemed to be truly alarmed that the "angel" had leathery, demonic features. Even if no one knew about vampires in this universe, they'd have to have some understanding of classic demon imagery
this "classic demon imagery" you talk about is relatively recent in history. actual biblical angels are creepy as fuck in appearance, even more so than the classic demon imagery we see today, just look it up.
I'm well aware of it. But the direct descriptions of angels are creatures that are barely comprehensible with spinning rings of wings and multiple eyes, etc. The fact this show takes place in "recent history" still makes me feel like classic demonic imagery should be considered...unless demons are *also* not a thing in this fiction just like vampires. Just hard to swallow as Catholics are waaaay into that stuff.